No Quarter POLICY: When We Disagree

Where IS George Bush anyway?! I mean, I know he is counting the minutes until he is out of office, but seriously–it’s a dereliction of duty to not be more robust in his response to this crisis as people on both sides are dying. And Obama’s selective “one president at a time” excuse is ridiculous. He’s spoke out against the Mumbai attacks, and has made repeated policy pronouncements about the economy–what’s the difference here? The vacuum of leadership is striking.

HI Susan,

Well said — and high time someone said it! You’re right: there’s every reason for people to disagree civilly and respectfully.

That and it makes for a better time.

Oh, and BTW: I proudly voted for NoQ today as the best political blog and will do so each day until the voting closes!

Agree.
NQ is a real bastion of open thinking. The writers and the commenters challenge everyone to think hard, and express their opinions and positions. Freedom of speech is a treasured right. And everyone should be able to hear the other guy out, whether they agree or not. Thanks for this wonderful site.

This IS the BEST POLITICAL BLOG on the Weblog Awards!

http://2008.weblogawards.org/polls/best-political-coverage/

Susan…Maybe you noticed I am one of the more impassioned posters here. I thank you and Larry for your open attitude towards what we post. As for Israel, I am behind them 100% and hope they blow their attackers off the planet. To me that’s the only right thing to do, and if it offends anyone that they defend themselves, so be it. From what I read, I am in good company with my support of Israel that is undying and a commitment that I am embarrassed America isn’t taking more seriously as a whole. But, then again, you can’t really expect people to understand that when they aren’t forced to live with BOMB SHELTERS in their homes.

Of course we ALL voted for NQ as the best site. Who wouldn’t? Regardless of the differences in opinion, it’s truly a community that most of us would be very sad without.

Susan,

This is a brilliant and thoughtful article. And I applaud both you and Larry for your courage and attemps to offer common sense middle of the road solutions for the Gaza situation.

Other than correct historical facts I am certain of I am a bit of a coward. The fact that AIPAC, Alan Dershowitz and CAMERA have solidified their talking points is overwhelming for me and I lack yours and Larry’s courage to confront what can be a meat grinder.

BRAVO to you both and please keep up the great work.

Susan, thank you for writing “one from the heart.” And thank you and Larry for making a safe haven for respectfully expressing passionate disagreements. And thank you for reminding us of the danger of not maintaining that respectful tolerance. Keep reminding us. It’s important.

Thank you Susan for this post. I am one of those who has voiced disagreement with Larry’s opinions regarding the Israeli actions in Gaza. I knew when I posted the comments that you folks are accepting of contrary views, and I of course never imagined that Larry was in any way anti Jewish… I appreciate this blog, and was very happy to see your posting here tonight.

Thank you for your perspective…this is one of the things I respect over here at No Quarter…people are free to express themselves and others can respond…unlike some places where you put some thought into a comment and it registers and then poof! it is gone because evidently it did not fall into line with what that so-called ‘Liberal/Progressive’ site wanted to hear…in other words, blogs where they only want comments that agree with them and do ‘toe the line’…that is something that really surprised me about the so-called ‘left blogs’

so thanks to No Quarter for not censoring people and allowing a true open dialogue…bravo!

Well said indeed, Susan.

Larry’s posts on this subject have been informative, carefully argued and challenging.

Ditto. Thanks S. Could not have said it better. And thanks Susan & all the nq staff!

I’m of the view that Israel has the right to defend itself. Any if it takes them into Gaza, Egypt or Lebanon so be it.

My second view is this: Hamas and all its supporters are not going to give peace a chance as long as the Jewish State exist. The only thing they understand is strong leadership and stronger military. The Israelis understand that and Bush understands that. They may not respect Bush in the Mideast, but they fear him. And that’s good enough for me to keep American interest safe around the world. American interest is what I care about.

Obama is a weasel and a fraud. I doubt very much if any leader in the Mideast respects or fears him. BHO is everything to all people. That’s a recipe for disaster.

Nellie said;
” I lack yours and Larry’s courage to confront what can be a meat grinder.”

It is all that and more and your courage is admirable.

This issue is different from most addressed on any blog. Comments are not made to spark controversy, but because many feel very strongly about the subject from their own prospective.

There is too much history and too much of it has been forgotten to make an argument with an unemotional response. It is written on every heart. The Biblical history, the Holocaust, old racial and ethnic tension, Islam, Judaism, Christianity and finally, 9/11. “Come let us reason together” doesn’t work here.

It’s been impossible to wade through the evasion and double-speak of the pres. elect, to decipher his true feelings about this crisis or determine what, exactly, the policy of our next four years will be. I can’t help but believe he is afraid to take a stand for fear of fallout from one group or another and this makes people nervous.

What is wrong with a presentation of facts gathered from quotes of those involved or actual recorded events along with opinions and why is it, if you present those facts, you will be accused of bias? Do we have to use labels in this country to the point, if you are labeled, you are completely judge by the perception of one opinion? This happened with the issue of race and now the US and Israeli policies on this conflict.

Noquarter has more intestional fortitude than any other blog on the Internet. You present unpopular opinions and allow an open debate and you have faced opposition for your courage.

“All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.”
Thomas Jefferson

So – do you have a position on the Israel West Bank settlements and wall?

Well said!

Sure.. More walls if that keeps the killers out. Built a lake, a sea, a mountain for all I care.

Thank you No Quarter. This is the sane place to come when discussing topics of national and international concern.

If Larry thinks Obama did a good thing he says so. That is to be respected. It doesn’t mean the obots have “won” or that Obama is suddenly competent.

If Larry thinks Israel has screwed up, again, that is to be respected.

It’s not an either/or world. Something the obots could stand to figure out.

I have a big position…bite me terrorists. The PLO and Hamas can go straight to hell and I hope Israel gets the jobs done. Having had a father who fought in WWII as an 82nd Airborne Paratrooper, I am ASHAMED that America won’t step in and blow Hamas to the moon. Gee, we went into Iraq but we won’t help the JEWS?????

There are so many wonderful comments here, I cannot respond to each. Except to say that I am deeply touched by your openness to our approach.

We really want you to feel SAFE here expressing your views. It’s gotten so that, in too many places, and especially at too many blogs, it is unsafe to go against the one-mindset of the particular blog.

And isn’t it great that we can disagree, and still remain fond of each other?

Your lovely comments mean the world to all of us here. THANK YOU! We are SO LUCKY that you are our readers! Wow.

NoQuarter 307
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ForeignPolicyWatch 13

Vote for NoQuarter! http://2008.weblogawards.org/polls/best-political-coverage/

ROFLMAO…NQ is beating the HELL out of the Daily Kook. I can die a happy gal now.

Although i don’t like Mr. Bush, I can see why he wouldn’t be doing anything about it. The guy who won our election talked obsessively about How Bush did everything wrong.

So if Obama believes everyone else does everything wrong, and he is sooooo smart. Let mr. Smarty pants fix it.

I think it’s important to realize in all this mess that Hamas, Hezbollah and all similar groups deliberately put civilians in harm’s way. They WANT civilian casualties. The more civilians that die, the better the propoganda. Hamas is protecting its elite, but the general population does not have access to bomb shelters. Hamas fires rockets from the roofs of apartment buildings and schools, and the fighters flee into tunnels and shelters denied to civilians.

Why should Israelis have to spend every night in bomb shelters and live in terror of rockets and suicide bombers?

Furthermore, Israel has shown that she will give up a lot to sign a peace treaty. Look at the Egyptian peace treaty, where Israel gave back the whole of the Sinai.

One thing the Palestians have been demanding is the ‘right of return’. In other words, that millions of Palestians born in exile since 1948 would automatically have rights as citizens in Israel. How could Israel possibly accomodate this demand and continue to exist? Furthermore, Israel took in hundreds of thousands of Jews from neighbouring Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt, Saudi Arabia etc (and these were Jews with family roots in these countries going back hundreds or thousands of years), and they were expelled with nothing, all their land and property stolen by their former governments. Israel gave these Jews citizenship and resettled them. In return, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt etc did not give citizenship or accept even one single Palestinian refuge. None. Not one. And now the 40-60 thousand refuges have multiplied into a stateless population numbering in the millions, most of them young.

In the meantime, the various Palestinian leaderships have stolen or squandered billions of dollars given to them by the international community. They live in luxury and have obscene foreign bank accounts. Yassar Arafat handed out control of all public utilities to his various relavtives and henchmen, who charged the Palestinians whatever they could extort. Arafat ruined the Palestinian universities, turning them into terrorist training camps. They had enough money to build a houses, hospitals and schools, and they spent the money on luxurious jet-setting lifestyles and a secret police to protect themselves. Then they invested in shit-disturbing terror tactics so that no Palestinian would dare speak out against them.

I would safely bet that more Palestinians are afraid of their own goverment than are afraid of the occasional stray Israeli missile.

You’re a girl!? I don’t know why but that surprises me.

Why Toni, because I have ballz and a brain

surprises me too. I think you mentioned the “wife” before?

LDW…

One of the few posts here with brains. Thank you.

Why should Israelis have to spend every night in bomb shelters and live in terror of rockets and suicide bombers?

We don’t live that way, why should they? And why in HELL would we help every other nut on the planet but ignore Israel? Really great that we can spend TRILLIONS on Saddam, but we can’t accept that Israel needs our help too. I am sickened by this. And what a great sign that Fraudbama is sitting on his lazy azz saying NOTHING. Ughh…we’re in HELL.

I have never mentioned a wife. Not only that, but I am good friends with people who post here, who have known me since I was like 19. I’m 46. Kind of a long time for people here to know I am a woman and who I am. Not only that but if you click on my name you will go to my website with my bio. LOL. Now, are you all being a little sexist about personalities and gender?

Interesting you say you invited people to write a pro-Obama commentary. I posted a few times to negative comments (no big deal – I’ve been on the internet posting comments against Bush before there were even blogs) until I was invited to “give up” and not come back. Something like if God himself said something pro-Obama no one here would listen.

I do come back when there is something about the CIA in the news to see what Larry Johnson says about it – I rarely read anything else but this caught my eye. And, I sure keep my mouth shut…sorry for the comment but I just found this too funny to let go by.

Even Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak says Hamas must be defeated, he remarkably is taking sides with Israel (and facing threats of assination from Iran).

http://www.nepalnews.net/story/450062
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052974.html
http://www.thememriblog.org/blog_personal/en/12662.htm

BECAUSE…if you have a BRAIN…you hate HAMAS. Period. You can’t sit by the campfire and sing KUMBAYA ABOUT HAMAS. God bless Mubarak. The more people who take an actual STAND, the better.

Oh I know who you are OIAF, I am a fan. Just thought you were a guy! Internet is funny that way.

People assume I’m one too (on the net.) It’s very interesting.

Was it sexism? Maybe I assume outspoken hilarious people are men.

No Quarter;

Because of your Democratic approach you attract quality.

You have the most intellectually stimulating discussions on the internet.

Keep it up and maybe by example you, and your Guest Writers will improve this online sewer of dysfunctional political discourse.

Thank you for your fairness and balance.

Ohhhhhhh Catfish…Not a guy. But you aren’t the first folks to think that I might be “growing one.” LOL. I guess it’s interesting that aggression and being “outspoken” happen to be attributed to MEN.

I said remarkably because Mubarak is the first Arab to show any cojones in the face of political islam, and more so given the consequences for blowback in Egypt itself from the Muslim Brotherhood.

Oh yeah…and I’m REALLY happy that the FRAUD will steal MY hard earned money and hand it off to lazy azzes in America who refuse to work, smoke crack all day, and have 15 kids whose fathers they never saw again…when good, decent hardworking Israelis need some help too. Yeah, that SUX AZZ.

And you are correct. Perhaps he will be an example and others will get some ballz too?

OIAF,
You’re a strong willed woman!
I appreciate women that are willing to speak up for what is right.
That’s why I like Sarah and know we’re in good hands with Hillary at the state department.

Mossy…

Hey Hot Thing.

I really am a girly girl…but I can’t stand to see injustices in the world. Must be my Libra blood. What are YOU Mossy?

“why in HELL would we help every other nut on the planet but ignore Israel? ”

What the fuck are you talking about?
The US provides Israel HUGE support. What are you smoking to keep saying such a thing?

Even as I type I’m watching CNN cover Israeli troops training in a complex in Israel to simulate urban settings in Gaza, and the complex was built with cooperation with the US Army Corp of Engineers.

http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
OPENING PARAGRAPH
“Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. From 1976-2004, Israel was the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance, having recently been supplanted by Iraq. Since 1985, the United States has provided nearly $3 billion in grants annual to Israel.”

If that isn’t overwhelming support…then what do you want?

The only reason Iraq has become more is because we destroyed the place and had to build a supersized Embassy.

I agree with you about Obama being silent, but goddamn, you just dared say we “ignore Israel”. To say that isn’t the case is beyond an understatement.

B
I know you’re just a sweet pea.
I Love being a Sagittarius every day of the week.

Uhhhh…so I guess we sent in the same amount of troops into Israel that we sent into Iraq? I guess we have lent them our military to combat Hamas? Man your troll stuff is silly azzzzzzzzz……

THE REASON OBAMA IS SILENT ABOUT GAZA:

This “incursion” into Gaza by Israel is being conducted by a “Moderate government”.

It is five weeks until the elections in Israel.

The incumbent is not running.

Because of the Hamas rocket Blitz, the Right under Benjamin Netanyahu stood a good chance of gaining power.

This attack has been launched to improve the “Ain”t I tough” creds of the Moderates.

Obama would rather deal with a Moderate Israeli Government in five weeks than a Hard Right Government under Bebe Netanyahu.

Hamas has miscalculated.

Lets hope Israel, Iran, Hezbollah and Syria don’t do anything as stupid.

Whew…good thing you’re not a Scorpio LOL.

I’m not a troll. I’ve been contributing to this blog for a long time. Check yourself.

You didn’t mention troops, now you do. You said:

“would we help every other nut on the planet but ignore Israel?”

…troops…nope…not in there…

so…answer what I said instead of just calling me names.

We provide major support to Israel.

Let me spell it out for you, because clearly you don’t get it…as long as ANY form of terrorism is allowed ANYWHERE in the world…world peace is a thing of your wingbat fantasy and it affects global peace and prosperity. WE have picked and chosen where and when to send our military and when to take a stand. MY POINT that you MISSED is that we should take a clear MILITARY stand against ANY and ALL terrorism and stop it. Do you people REALLY think that Hamas Suicide Bombers are going to JOIN YOU around the campfire singing Kumbaya? ROFLMAO. Israel needs our help and support. Not a paycheck. But for us to say to Hamas and the PLO to knock this crap off or we will take serious action.

OIAF,
Interesting how signs really work. I have people telling me all the time that I must be a Sag.

OMG we’re twins!

and you have a lot of nerve posting this in an article where Susan has called for a respectful disagreement instead of calling me a “troll”.

I spent a majority of last year supplying this site with videos.
I spent a majority of last year providing technical backend support to Susan and Larry, and you..reduce me to a troll because I won’t just simply buy your bullshit?

“MY POINT that you MISSED is that we should take a clear MILITARY”

No…you didn’t make that point until now.
It isn’t my job to interpret what you have in the back of your opinionated mind. That is your job.

LOL…I was one of about 15 people who called you a troll the other night because of the sympathizing with Hamas and the PLO. Do you want me to go back and read you all of the posts? You have attacked me and everything I say for days. Grow up.

And all the time I thought you were a centrist!

A Centrist Sag…Be still my HEART…

Hey Zeke,
I hope you enjoyed the snow days. I sure did but I’m just a kid at heart.
Hope you and your family have a healthy and prosperous new year.

I would like to have a few beers and watch the ballgame again this year.

I am disappointed by Barack Obama’s shyness in speaking out.

Obama is like the worst kind of fart: silent but deadly!

Thanks for this site Larry, Susan, and family – you are all the greatest!

There are enough puns and double entendres lying there for the taking to make Dorothy Parker sit up in her grave and order a dry martini… I, on the other hand, shall abjure.

OIAF,
The Sag in me comes out when I’m walking along the shore or sipping fine wine in a fabulous restaurant.
The rest of the time I’m a Jeffersonian
That’s why I love this blog!

Hey Moss,
A belated holidaysiness to you too. My internet wireless system has been down to semaphore speeds and its been mostly reading rather than writing.
My cable has the baseball channel!!! whopee!
Also every monday night FSN shows Mariners Monday where they present replays of the times way back in the past when we didn’t suck.
We shall certainly do some games this season if only to watch the young pitchers as they develop.
Drop me an email if you would be so kind… I’m still wary of my send/receive capabilities. (I lost a terrific rant the other night to the ether)
Regards

Many Arab states refused citizenship to Palestinian refugees after the PLO supported Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf War. It is allowed in Jordan, they have some rights of citizenship in Syria, but in Lebanon they have no rights.

Hundreds of thousands were forced to leave their homes after the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine in 1947 and defines a refugee as direct descendants through males. They have been “stateless” since the 1948 war which began as a result of Arab opposition to the partition.

I hope you will accept this information in the spirit of free debate, LDW, and will not interpret it as bias or bigotry, but some historians believe the intent from the beginning has been the complete destruction of Palestine as a separate state. If this is true, any peace negotiation by Israel is not in good faith.

“Something like if God himself said something pro-Obama no one here would listen.”
Would never happen…

In last few days it has been a learning experience to witness the reactions and passionate point of views.

Still, there it is. The PLO and HAMAS have been dicking each other around to the detriment of their people for years. They are not citizen of any nation yet they squabble like little punks with no aspiration save the destruction of Israel.

Sure they were assisted by other interested parties in all that BS. It has gotten people killed. The blood is on Hamas’s and PLO’s hand. It is on the hands of any person that assisted in funding Hamas and PLO.

Israel? What has she done to deserve such venom? Mr. Johnson, if I understand his position, has stated that her response is lob sided and disproportional to the threat. (Is that about right, Mr.J?)

Did Israel leave Gaza? Is it Hamas that declared the goal of the extinction of Israel?

So many little holes to fall into on this issue.

Well, the bottom-line is innocent life is lost and that FACT is blunt ant in-escapable. Who do we talk to about that?

For myself,I have been silent, except to note that it doesn’t matter if it is a GBU-28 or missiles or tanks or cheap ass rockets homemade or supplied by Iran or Syria or Russia or China or the US.

Frankly, they all kill, they all injure and they ruin lives. There is no proportionality when you are dead.

And by the way, screw Hamas. I just loved watchin ‘em dance for joy in the streets in Gaza on 9/11, didn’t you? Made ya feel warm and fuzzy all over, didn’t it?

Screw the PLO too and Arafat in his grave…Hows a person go from assassinating athletes to some frakin leader? You mad that I say this? Go talk to Iran about it or the Saudi or any other jihads funding theocratic state. I think Hamas or anyone that uses civilians for shielding weather in Iraq or Lebanon or Gaza or anywhere else are a bunch cowards and fools and deserve what they get.

Children die in war and it hurts us all. But thanks for your views as they did get this crowd going.

Best regards to you and SusanUnpc, both of who I respect very much and thank you for NQ.

I never…ever…supported Hamas in a single statement because I do not support Hamas’ actions at all. I don’t condone violence as the method for revolution because it doesn’t solve anything in the end.

Calling me a troll for disagreeing with you, however passionately, is simply unacceptable, especially in light of Susan’s comments at the top. If you disagree with a point I make, counter the point, but cut the “troll” comments. I’m no troll.

By constantly accusing people of supporting Hamas, you really only discredit your own voice as reasonable.

Even though I think you are an absolutist with your opinions, and there obviously is no room for disagreement with you, I’d never call you a “troll” for your comment.

This will be the last time I state that I don’t support Hamas, because I’ve already beat that horse dead. It’s your carcass now.

The difference here may be that if he sides with Israel, his pro-PLO friend Rashid Khalili might not be too happy with him, and if he sides with the Palestinians, there goes his hard won argument with the US Jewish population that he’s really for them. Besides, this is part of a pattern with him. He doesn’t like to take sides and define who he is. He voted “present” in Senate votes, for crying out loud. I just can’t quite figure out if it’s because he is incompentent and wants so badly to be liked by everyone or if he’s just deliberately acting like an empty suit to expose his true colors when it’s more convenient for him to do so. But I’m leaning toward the latter.

While I respect NQ and their choice to post pro Obama commentary, if it becomes anything pro Obama, I will be out of here. I will not advocate someone so vile and corrupt.

“evil prevails when good men do nothing”….

while I can accept a differing point of view, I will not accept a view that is a detriment to my well being and the well being of this country.

(((No Quarter)))

Brava Susan! Great article.

I think it is crazy that people can’t criticize the actions of a government, without being called anti-semitic. It’s like not being able to criticize Obama without being called racist.

This conflict is so long and ongoing, and it is so confusing and difficult and deep, but I think we lose all hope for a resolution if one side shuts down, and no criticism or discussion is allowed, or accepted.

I was quite shocked at some of the criticism I read elsewhere, about this. And I was really bothered that NQ was being trashed over the spam filter! Good lord, I go in there almost daily and pull out tons of comments that go there accidently!

Anyway, you said what needed said. It was really shocking to read such nastiness directed at NQ, for someone expressing their views…especially someone *in the know*.

I don’t see that happening anytime soon. ahah

Comment by OBAMA IS A FRAUD | 2009-01-06 01:25:17

I guess it’s interesting that aggression and being “outspoken” happen to be attributed to MEN.

“outspoken”? “agression”? Oh yeah. You do not want to be standing next to this woman does not get what she wants.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2008/06/01/us/0601-DEMS_7.html

http://www.jossip.com/dnc-halves-the-votes-f-that-20080531/

I love the comment on the second one: “you can imagine what she was about to shout.”

Susan, your very choice of words “pro Israel” or “pro Palestinians” shows, IMO, our struggle and our tendency to take short cuts in order to simplify complex conflicts. As I commented in other blogs, there is a psychological aspect to the worldwide condemnation of Israel’s actions (and don’t misunderstand me, I am not defending one or the other party here) which we all have to consider:

What is happening here, IMO, is a very common psychological phenomenon:
“victim identification”.

To ease one’s impotence while witnessing a severe and complex conflict, being pained by human suffering, people who have not learned to recognize their own emotional re-action, who have not acquired the strength to bear with conflict and suffering that has no immediate resolve, will appease themselves by identifying with the victim. Others will identify with the stronger side (as young or week victims very often do with their own culprit). It is no wonder that we,the left, in general identify with the victim, it’s in our “genes”, so to speak.

Knowing oneself, acquiring social and emotional competence and the strength to not get drenched in one’s own emotions, but induce clear reasoning while acknowledging the emotional pain and bear with it, is the only answer to such seemingly righteous, but might I say, immature reactions. (note: I don’t exclude myself)

But I’am trying….

ehemmmm….Am I still banned?…Just wondering?

Susan, well said! NQ is a forum for free expression of opinions. Much more democractic than MSM. so called progressive sites and radio!

Susan, this all sounds really very nice. But I have been reluctant very often to go on reading the comments here on this blog, I have not donated more money to this blog lately, because of so much bashing, crude language and a spiral of negativeness in many, not all the posts and the majority of the comments; not really an interesting discourse and exchange of different opinions. I attributed much of it to trolls and responding to their distraction from topics during the campaign, but it continues, things become personal and uninteresting to me. So this is one of the downsides of allowing all comments. I respect this blog’s stance on allowing all comments, but we do have to acknowledge that there is a downside and it’s usually in reality not quite as rosy as these comments here describe it. On the other hand, I miss a lot of good information not coming to site regularly anymore. Today I was interested in Larry’s view of the CIA apointment and I saw your post and just wanted to say my piece. Further down I commented something of more general character that might be interesting to some readers.

I love reading this blog and I have written comments here that had been posted almost immediately compared to some other website. I applaud the fact that people can freely express their opinions here and are posted as well.

Because the MSM in the US is so biased, we look for alternative sources of information.. Israel claim for self defense and denying the result of humanitarian crises on the part of the Gazans is hardly discussed openly and differently. There is an excellent article on this
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/20091585448204690.html

Too often in the US we condemn one side over the other based on the way we get our information. No where in the world can you find this situation… The Jews are so dominant in Wall Street, in the Mass Media (look who are the most famous columnists in the NY Times, WaPo, Los Angeles Times, Time, Newsweek, etc and how about Hollywood. There are hundreds of films about the Holocaust but none would dare say that the holocaust experience is being practiced in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I read one comment in the Aljazeera English website that 90% of the time, the victims of oppression and physical and mental abuses have themselves become oppressors and abusers…That is a very interesting thought and this is actually what is happening in Gaza.

Unfortunately, even the way this crises is being discussed here in the US is always framed according to the story of one side and lack of it or villifying the other.. I am not anti Jewish nor I am not anti Muslim..just like the issue about the election of BO, I look at all sources of information and decide for myself which one I can support and believe in..

Thanks for this web site I am able to do so.

Elise-

“There were no such thing as Palestinians. When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state?

It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan.

It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them.

They did not exist.”

Golda Meir

Hating Hamas doesn’t necessarily translate into agreeing on how to handle the situation. The British were very tough on the IRA for years but that just made them more sympathetic to the Irish Catholic community. Something similar seems to be happening now. Hamas’ approval ratings with the Palestinians had been very low, but now they have regained popularity.

So it is entirely possible for people to be pro-Israel and object strongly to this. In fact Haaretz has just such a debate going on. Israeli citizens, who are hardly anti-Israel, are not in agreement on the best course of action. They agree on the goal of a secure peaceful Israel, but disagree on the means to achieve that goal. Too bad that in America it is difficult, if not impossible, to have this kind of discussion without being called anti-Israel or anti-Semitic.

Bush is on the record in his support for the Gaza offensive

Susan

I love this post because it assured me that Noquarter will remain a forum and not turn into a private club.

Well said, Bernie.

One can be pro-Israel and completely reject their choices in Gaza.

The ole “with us or against us” of the Bush neocons is OVER.

Americans are much more informed now, about the situation, and are no longer accepting the one-sided propaganda of AIPAC or the mainstream media.

There are thousands of Israeli’s protesting their government’s choices now.

Susan,

I am one of the people that felt like Larry’s comments were anti-Israel. I found his responses to individuals to be very bullying.

I went so far as to delete the NoQuarter bookmark. I decided to come back and take a peek at this blog this morning. Thanks for your post.

I never doubted your gender, O’Fraud. The women on NQ are fierce, and I appreciate that. I always comment with trepidation . . .

Golda forgot to tell you that when Joshua conquered Jericho, there were Canaanites living there, all of whom Joshua slaughtered, including women and children, because he believed God had given the land to the Jews.

Canaanites were the ancestors of Palestinians.

Joshua slaughtered them.

Don’t get hung up on words; the point is, there were PLENTY of “Palestinians” living there during the British Mandate after WWII. In fact, the area the mandate covered was CALLED “Palestine.”

Golda Meir was making a political statement, not an historical statement, and clearly, had personal motivations.

Truthtelling….

ObamaIsAFraud may well be an outspoken woman with “balls,” but her facts are almost always very, very sketchy. Quite emotional, with little understanding of the true history of the area.

Thank you for posting rationally.

But OF COURSE you’re correct: Israel is America’s largest recipient of foreign aid, mostly in the form of weapons and nuclear technology.

Sad, that OIAFraud couldn’t know that, without a cat fight.

Stick around, truthtelling. Your posts are quite factual, which many of us admire.

Wow, Fraud.

The British, during the Mandate of Palestine after WWI, considered the Jewish organizations Irgun, Haganah, and Levi to be “terrorist organizations,” which they clearly were.

Based on your theory , that ANY terrorism ANYWHERE should be militarily confronted, no questions asked…..

You appear to suggest that the Jews who were involved in pre-Israel “terrorism” in Palestine—-ostensibly to gain their independence—-should have been militarily suppressed by Britain.

Or, per your definitions, WIPED OUT by the them.

Fascinating.

PS. They don’t all look alike, dear.

With all due respect, terri, the only posters Larry “bullied,” were the ones who childishly called him an “anti-Semite.”

They were wrong, and too narrow-minded to see bigger issues, and how Israel’s poor choices affect US.

This is a blog for THINKERS, for HISTORIANS, for people who see MORE than just one-sided propaganda, and are who offended by the American media who misinform its own citizens.

Larry had every right to BULLY the name-callers.

Frankly, I thought he shoulda said MORE, but restrained himself.

But thank you, Susan, for your defense of Larry’s true motivations.

Carry on.

Thoughtful, respectful, well reasoned arguements are a rarity in discorse these days. Bravo to NQ for setting a standard that we should all live by. And my humble thanks to all the writers and reader/commentator at NQ – you engage my mind, expand my heart and educate me on so many topics everyday. MSM wouldn’t be in the mess it’s in today if it did half as much for the general public.

This is an excellent statement of the value of different opinions. In our country, where there is little free speech left, No quarter provides a forum for intelligent opinions. I agree that respect is what we need.

Mary,

Nice snark…Please go back and tell me which posts of mine are lies? Yes, of course I am emotional. I got Fraudbama and now Israel is having problems. I don’t see my world in a great place right now. Good for YOU for being such a calm, rational ABOVE IT ALL genius. Some of us are quite concerned, and don’t love that Fraud was committed in this “selection.” I stand by my views about Israel and what we should do. Guess what? It’s MY opinion and too bad for you. Like I said, my father fought for this country. I think he’d be surprised by what certain people say about it and how they feel we should conduct ourselves. That’s MY opinion and, hey, also the opinion of people I respect. Like Mayor Bloomberg. Have you seen what he thinks? He flew to Israel for support. Like, you know, TAKING ACTION instead of people like YOU sitting around criticizing others who don’t LIKE what they see. Oh well. Good luck with that. And, again, please point out all of these “lies” I tell. I pretty much post the same stuff others here do and I’m quite involved in what is going on in the anti-Obama movements. I don’t stick my regressive “progressive” head in the sand. Sorry.

Mary, truth be told. I used to be very much like OIAF with respect to her opinions about Israel. Until we invaded Iraq. I had a very basic understanding about the ME, and I considered myself pretty informed. But something told me I needed a bit more background info, so I went back to school…AGAIN. I started taking ME courses at a small Catholic College that does a lot of charity work in Israel for both sides. Anyhoo, was that an eye opener. I can’t believe how many problems (from Iraq to Turkey to Israel and back again) all stem from British and American mucking about in other people’s affairs. It doesn’t take a historian with a 190 IQ to see that many of those seeds planted back then led to most of the problems we see today. And many of the seeds we are planting now will come roaring back in 10-20 years to bite us in our children’s asses. I love it when I hear people say that Bush has kept us safe so far. It took years (from the first Gulf War) for 911 to happen. How many years has it been between both Twin Towers attacks? The rest of the world doesn’t suffer from short term memory loss like the US does. And the ME has a very long memory. I remember the interview Bin Laden gave back in the late 90′s. He said that he didn’t expect to live to see the end of the Jihad he started. I fear the next Bin Laden or Saddam Hussien, ot Hitler is growing up in poverty, starvation and fear at this very moment. A hungery man is an angry man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGgBjZTsPaw

Here is what Bloomberg says. It’s what I think too. I can’t BELIEVE I even have to have this sick conversation with people about Israel DEFENDING THEMSELVES. This sucks. WTF is wrong with people? Anyway, thank God for people like Mayor Bloomberg and the rest of those who support Israel – particularly BECAUSE if we sit around and let terrorism occur in ONE place we will never stop it from others. But, that’s logic so it might not fly here.

Geez. I disagree with you one time. Don’t take it so seriously dude – you know what they say about opinions.

???????
I, for one, always enjoy reading your posts, workingclass artist.

Terrorism will never stop as long as there is suffering. When people feel they have nothing to lose, they act out the only way they can. Thems just the facts. Trying to bomb the shit out of a population didn’t work in Viet Nam, Iraq (both under British control and American control) India, Afghanistan (both under Russian control and now the US) and here in the good old US herself. Can you say the Boston Tea Party? I can name many more instances when killing off whole populations was bad planning. Like I said, when you have to resort to thumbscrews and blunt instrument tactics, you’ve already lost.

Okay Strawberrybitch…I agree. Israel should sit there, do nothing whatsoever, and allow their entire culture to be destroyed. What can I say anymore?

OIAF. My father fought for this country as well. Not to mention my husband spent 3 and a half years in Iraq. He’s now on permanent disability. He sees what’s happening in Israel as a repeat of the fuck ups in Iraq as well. We bombed the shit out of whole cities over there and all it did was prolong the occupation and the suffering on both sides, not to mention send even moderate Iraqis to join terrorist groups. Only after we started pulling back and winning hearts and minds did the violence drop. Feed the hungery, clothe the poor, treat the injured and sick. Don’t give terrorism a chance to take seed and grow. We’ll still have to deal with what we did over there in 5-10 years. The fall out from Iraq will be far reaching. Israel should learn from our mistakes. Otherwise, they’ll be doing this same crap all over again in ten years, maybe less.

No OISF, don’t just sit there. Be proactive. Do a little research, for God’s sake. Treat the cause of terrorism, not the symptoms. I don’t care about the radicals. But terrorism can’t grow with out support from the people. If you win over the people and take care of them. They will take care of the radicals on there own. Just like Al Quada was thrown out in some parts of Iraq by moderate Iraqis when we reached out to them.

Yikes, must spell check.

I kind of understand what you are saying…But I guess we are going to have to disagree that you can just go have a tea party with murderers and they change their tune. One of the things we have to accept is that there are different religions and cultures in the world who just AREN’T going to become docile little things because we tell them to. I don’t even get how people can think that when many of these differences have gone on for a bazillion years. Yes, we can just give people a nice home, a car and they will stop? I disagree and I am very terrified about this Fraudbama administration. Naive is all I can say. By the way, I have friends in Iraq who are grateful to the US for liberating them from terror and oppression. But we didn’t have a tea party with them either. I have posted before that my female friend there in particular is thanking us daily for the fact that Saddam’s crazy son isn’t knocking on women’s doors and raping and anally sodomizing them daily. Oh well. We suck though, right? So does Bush and so does the notion that we should police the world against terrorism. Like I said, I wonder what Hitler would have done if America sat around doing nothing in WWII?

There are two positive posts on Obama in the last 24 hours; Larry likes his picks for CIA & DNI, and LD likes his economic plan. Maybe people are starting to see the light. It’s crazy how keeping an open mind will also open your eyes.

And let us not forget that his chief of staff’s father was a Zionist terrorist, a member of the Irgun.

Susan, you’re the greatest! Thanks for the post.

oiaf: do you ever think before you defecate on this blog? Clearly not: you just spew either obvious comments, banal binary viewpoints and tirades of abuse against anyone who objects to your gospel of irrational hatred. How skinny malinky puts up with it is anyone’s guess!

I’m not trying to argue, just trying to point out that for every action, there is a reaction. Someone can make a comment, and there will always be room for debate. This does not mean you have to take sides though.

They are not citizen of any nation yet

I always find this as a very heartless thing to say about a group of people. Isn’t that the way blacks were treated when we brought them over here in slave ships? Isn’t that the way Jews were treated in Europe?

they squabble like little punks with no aspiration save the destruction of Israel.

Hasn’t that been Israel’s objective for Palestine? There is no Palestine…Israel wiped it off the map.

Screw the PLO too and Arafat in his grave…Hows a person go from assassinating athletes to some frakin leader?

You may just want to read up on the past of Israel’s leaders, who had been members of the terrorist group Irgun. And all of those leaders were elected.

I don’t want war for any country. You can’t just look at what is going on now…you have to look at the history of it to be able to solve the problem. It’s not “who started what first” but it’s a matter finding the root of the problem and going from there.

Otherwise, we’ll be playing the “we did this” vs “they did that”. Which I can do all day.

You may have seen Palestinian people dancing in the streets after 9/11. I remember hearing about about the 5 Israeli’s (Mossad) recording it from a rooftop and cheering. And I can’t remember who (I’ll find out later), but an Israeli leader said they were glad we will know what it’s like now to live in fear. Was it Bibi?? Probably. Also, we seem to know now that Israel was trying to tell our govt that 9/11 was going to happen, and we ignored them. Really? Israel is our friend, why would we ignore them? Why wouldn’t they be screaming it to us citizens?

Did Israel leave Gaza? Is it Hamas that declared the goal of the extinction of Israel?

No, they really didn’t leave Gaza. They controlled Gaza’s borders (which I’m not bitching about), but Israel was supposed to ease restrictions as agreed by the cease-fire in 2008. Then, Nov 4th, Israel raided Gaza to close a tunnel. They still had a cease-fire in which Israel broke. Then Hamas did not renew the cease-fire stating the above reasons.

I can do this all day.

With all that said…you know I wouldn’t lose sleep if every Hamas nutjob were killed. But then, what little goodness that’s in my heart will remind me of the Hamas leader’s son who turned to Christianity and does not believe that way anymore.

I’m anti-war. Not anti-human.

If you are really interested in furthering Obama’s cause, it would be a good idea to stop using religious imagery, because many of us are appalled at the religious transmogrification of this politician from Chicago. More plainly: do not encourage us to sing:

Praise the lord! I saw the light!

I like Larry, he is an honest man.

Idiocracy08,

I take your points and recieve them respectfully.
At some point though,while history does assist one in understanding what has made up this “beatloaf”, it is the residents of Gaza who choose this path. I grow so weary of the meme “but Israel did this and now Hamas did this and before them the PLO.

It would appear that instead of building tunnels for arms shippments they might focus on the plight of the residents of Gaza.

I have read about the early days of the Jewish people prior to the formation of Israel. I do not claim to anything but a person that stuggles to make sense out of FUBAR.

As you said, I, as a meat eatin Taoist, am pro human.

Again, this forum is a jewel floating on an ocean of madness. For that I am a greatful soul.

???

Susan

Great post….much needed and welcomed by all!
It was abundantly clear that Larry J. was a ‘critical friend’ of Israel and his column dealt with the political opportunism and military short-sightedness. We can only enrich our knowledge of the current situation by perspectives that take in all sides. Not just one. I still say the Israeli elections prompted this aggression for domestic “pro-hawk” consumption. And Dubbya only has a few days left…so they got the Green Light for this. Diplomacy, fairmindedness and perspective, where are You?

Such a shame you haven’t opened yours.

Choo choo

Right on! Abolish all newspapers, magazines, media…for much more wisdom, common sense and, above all, CRITICAL COMMENTARY, is to be found in the pages of NO-QUARTER!…I wrote CNN how dissatisfied I was with their “Pablum for the masses” non-stories and persistent Obamyopia. I told them what the hell were they up to those long Iraqi War Years? Why did they fail to REPORT the FACTS? Why did they engage in self-censoring–isn’t that Democratic Hara-kiri of sorts?…

So bye bye Time, Times, Post and MSNBC/CNN et al. You were judged and found wanting. Your job was to provide us with the News and fairness. Your fundamental breach of this promise was obvious during the Iraqi Cheerleeding you led and your Obamyopic leg-thrilling idolatry during the primaries.
Now, I am pleasantly surprised to see pragmatic and unbiased commentary on the new brutalities in the middle east. I am sure they’ll be fairly reported here at No Quarter–whether it’s the Hamas terrorists or the Israeli hawks. Balanced Perspective in Journalism….Gosh my degree has been gathering dust for so many years. No wonder I’m now allergic to most “mainstream” media….

Mary:

I just wanted to say I enjoy your comments. And that I am NOT you. I comment here as:

“mary” –not with the capital M. which is your trademark!

small “m”

Skinny Malinsky

Obamyopia still seems to be your favorite affliction. You failed to understand that just because some of us are not buying into the phony idolatry of Oblabla we are instantly anti-Obama-Policy. Obama is still in kindergarten in developing his political muscle. But he’s clever enough to know he has to surround Himself with people more intelligent and pragmatic than Him.
No, no one is seeing the Light you’re seeing all along, Skinny idolatrous worshipper of The Anorexic Resume Holder-Messiah.

You’ve neer seen the Light, skinny male.
Some cut through the Obama-bull crap others have been fed since they were baby caucus sheep.

Problem is comparing agreement with certain policy decisions to buying the whole kaboodle sold by KoolAid merchants are two different things.

OBAMYOPIA is a curable affliction. And only when its sufferers are cured, will they SEE THE LIGHT! Periodically, when you feel down, you launch sneaky attacks to boost the Messiah’s appeal…no bite…

As a Sag I take offence to being referred to as “Centrist” or “moderate”. p-l-e-a-s-e! How vile! What’s happened to Horoscope integrity…

Sages are the best, ain’t they?!!!!!!Mark Twain, Churchill, Obamarama (just kidding on the last one, Zeus forbid! don’t want Him in my neighborHood!

Obama’s a Fraud

Hope you didn’t direct your comment to “mary” with the SMALL “m”. I never did say anything remotely connected to this or “lies” or whatever. Could it be some one else, maybe….enlighten me. Cheers!

mary (small “m”)!!!

Strawberry Bitch

I understand and agree with most of what you’re expressing here….thanks for your perspective….

Mary

Arafat was labelled a “Terrorist” before he became a “freedom fighter” and a leader of his people. Ariel Sharon was “freedom fighter” or “terrorist” (depending on your perspective, of course!) and he rose to prominence and leadership of his people.
So, really, it’s all in your political weltanschauung! Today’s “terrorist” or “freedom fighter” is tomorrow’s respected Leader. The open wound in that bloodied region has remained open and doesn’t seem to be healing. Could perhaps part of the reason for this be that the hawkish U.S. administrations have supported the “hawkish” government that will ensure sufficient military hardware is bought and sold–regardless of pollitical allegiances? It’s only Business as Oliver North clearly showed.
Eliminate greed, corruption; will you have achieved Peace the middle east? Israel’s right to life should not be sacrificed, and its survival must be ensured and protected. But what do we do with the thousands homeless Palestinians–Refugees in their own lands~ Surely, the Solution is there. But you have to make sure the Soros boys, the Ford Foundation, Brezinsky and their ‘top dog’ ilk don’t continue to play chess with people’s lives and nations. Once their puppet ODrama Queen is Prez of the World, don’t expect anything to change. My one hope lies in HIllary’s ability to cut through the bull-crap and get to work to force both sides to some kind of a long-term arrangement to guarantee fair and equitable agreement. Problem is, will ODrama Queen allow Hillary the leeway she needs to do her work. She has tremendous credibility with the Jewish communities and she empathizes with peaceful initiatives in the area. She’d be perfect for this job. As long as Odrama PrincessBama doesn’t get in her way! Let’s start believing in miracles. Who knows? Obamyopia may see the Light of Reason one day….sorry, i do digress…
Thanks to NO QUARTER for REAL REPORTING…

Susan

Thanks! No Quarter is my only true media refuge….I do feel SAFE, althou I’ve stated my inanities on many occasions and felt sorry afterwards.
Journalism, at its best, and as it should be, means you use criticism as a tool to dig out the Truth and to inform and enlighten your readers.I truly appreciate Larry’s willingness to speak the Truth, regardless of the ‘audience’s sensitivities!
We should all be free to express our views. As long as this is done respectfully.
although, I must admit, it’s hard to be civil and balanced when confronted with kindergartensih OBAMYOPIA sufferers. Mercifully, even the Obamyopics tend to restrain thtemselves admirably in these pages….Maybe they’ve come to see the Light of No Quarter?!!! Ah miracles without spending money in this recession to go to Lourdes!

Mary-

Just as I begged you to enlighten yourself so that you would stop equating the Warsaw Ghetto with the Palestinian situation -

I’m now suggesting that it would behoove you to learn about Golda Meir.

And the history of the area from 1900 to 1967.

Maybe you will learn about the Empire building British and their maps?

Then STUDY why Egypt won’t let them enter.

Why does Jordan refuse them?

Quoting the Bible is fine, but if you broaden your sources, you may learn.

elsie-

You stated:

I read one comment in the Aljazeera English website that 90% of the time, the victims of oppression and physical and mental abuses have themselves become oppressors and abusers

So you’re saying both sides are doomed to be oppressors and abusers – at least a 90% chance of it?

Pretty dreary picture.

Or was it just some unsubstantiated sputtering on a website that you pulled out to belie your extreme bias for Hamas?

Al jazeera where the anchors drive jihadists to delis to kill little kids. And then laugh about it.

Mary, don’t be distracted, the term is being disputed in order to forget history, not to clarify it.

If you search the New York Times Archives, you can find the following publication that clearly calls the area Palestine, and the publication was submitted by American Jewish citizens.
“A STATEMENT TO THE PEACE CONFERENCE
March 4th, 1919″

But…that isn’t nearly as validating of the term as the advocates for Zionist Organization who call the area Palestine over and over. So enough about British maps, Empire and such…that is a distraction by an ignorant poster:

Here’s the advocation of building the Jewish Homeland…filled with Palestine, Palestine, Palestine:

Jewish proposal for Jewish Homeland, 1919
From the Proposals Presented by the Zionist Organisation to the Paris Peace Conference, 1919
The Zionist Organisation respectfully submits the following draft resolutions for the consideration of the Peace Conference:-

1 – The High Contracting Parties recognise the historic title of the Jewish people to Palestine and the right of the Jews to reconstitute in Palestine their National Home.

2. The boundaries of Palestine shall be as declared in the Schedule annexed hereto.

3. The sovereign possession of Palestine shall he vested in the League of Nations and the Government entrusted to Great Britain as Mandatory of the League.

4. (Provision to be inserted relating to the application in Palestine of such of the general conditions attached to mandates as are suitable to the case.)

5. The mandate shall be subject also to the following special conditions:-

(I.) Palestine shall be placed under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment there of the Jewish National Home, and ultimately render possible the creation of an autonomous Commonwealth, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

(II.) To this end the Mandatory Power shall inter alia:

(a) promote Jewish immigration and close settlement on the land, the established rights of the present non-Jewish population being equitably safeguarded.

(b) Accept the co-operation in such measures of a Council representative of the Jews in Palestine and of the world that may be established for the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine and entrust the organisation of Jewish education to such Council.

(c) On being satisfied that the constitution of such Council precludes the making of private profit, offer to the Council in priority any concession for public works or for the development of natural resources which it may be found desirable to grant.

(III.) The Mandatory Power shall encourage the widest measure of self-government for localities practicable in the conditions of the country.

(IV.) There shall be for ever the fullest freedom of religious worship for all creeds in Palestine. There shall be no discrimination among the inhabitants with regard to citizenship and civil rights, on the grounds of religion, or of race.

(V.) (Provision to be inserted relating to the control of the Holy Places.)

The Boundaries of Palestine.
Schedule.

The boundaries of Palestine shall follow the general lines set out below:-

Starting on the North at a point on the Mediterranean Sea in the vicinity south of Sidon and following the watersheds of the foothills of the Lebanon as far as JISR EL KARAON, thence to EL BIRE, following the dividing line between the two basins of the WADI EL KORN and the WADI ET TEIM, thence in a southerly direction following the dividing line between the Eastern and Western slopes of the HERMON, to the vicinity west of BEIT JENN, thence eastward following the northern watersheds of the NAHR MUGHANIYE close to and west of the Hedjaz Railway.

In the east a line close to and west of Hedjaz Railway terminating in the Gulf of Akaba.

In the south a frontier to be agreed upon with the Egyptian Government.

In the west the Mediterranean Sea.

The details of the delimitation’s, or any necessary adjustments of detail, shall be settled by a Special Commission on which there shall be Jewish representation.

Great Britain as Mandatory of the League of Nations.
We ask that Great Britain shall act as Mandatory of the League of Nations for Palestine. The selection of Great Britain as Mandatory is urged on the ground that this is the wish of the Jews of the world, and the League of Nations in selecting a Mandatory will follow as far as possible the popular wish of the people concerned.

The preference on the part of the Jews for a British Trusteeship is unquestionably the result of the peculiar relationship of England to the Jewish Palestinian problem. The return of the Jews to Zion has not only been a remarkable feature in English literature, but in the domain of statecraft it has played its part, beginning with the readmission of the Jews under Cromwell. It manifested itself particularly in the nineteenth century in the instructions given to British Consular representatives in the Orient after the Damascus incident; in the various Jewish Palestinian projects suggested by English non-Jews prior to 1881; in the letters of endorsement and support given by members of the Royal Family and Officers of the Government to Lawrence Oliphant; and, finally, in the three consecutive acts which definitely associated Great Britain with Zionism in the minds of the Jews, viz.: the El Arish offer in 1901; the East African offer in 1903, and, lastly, the British Declaration in favour of a Jewish National Home in Palestine in 1917. Moreover, the Jews who have gained political experience in many lands under a great variety of governmental systems, whole-heartedly appreciate the advanced and liberal policies adopted by Great Britain in her modern colonial administration.

It may be stated without doubt that all of these things account for the attitude taken by the Jews with reference to the Trusteeship, as evidenced by the following:-

On December 16th, 1918, the American Jewish Congress composed of delegates representing 3,000,000 American Jews adopted the following resolution:

“The American Jewish Congress instruct their delegation to Europe to co-operate with representatives of other Jewish Organisations and specifically with the World Zionist Organisation, to the end that the Peace Conference may recognise the aspirations and historic claims of the Jewish people with regard to Palestine, and declare that, in accordance with the British Government’s Declaration of November 2nd, 1917, endorsed by the Allied Governments and the President of the United States, there shall be established such political administrative and economic conditions in Palestine, as will assure under the trusteeship of Great Britain, acting on behalf of such League of Nations as may be formed, the development of Palestine into a Jewish Commonwealth; it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which shall prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in other countries.”

Similar action was taken in Jaffa in the month of December, 1918, by a conference of representatives of the Jewish population in Palestine, and on January 4th, 1919, by Jewish Congresses representing about two million Jews of the reconstituted States of Austria-Hungary and of Poland.

Boundaries.
The boundaries outlined are what we consider essential for the necessary economic foundation of the country. Palestine must have its natural outlets to the seas and the control of its rivers and their headwaters. The boundaries are sketched with the general economic needs and historic traditions of the country in mind, factors which necessarily must also be considered by the Special Commission in fixing the definite boundary lines. This Commission will bear in mind that it is highly desirable, in the interests of economical administration, that the geographical area of Palestine should be as large as possible, so that it may eventually contain a large and thriving population which could more easily bear the burdens of modem civilised government than a small country with a necessary limitation of inhabitants.

The economic life of Palestine, like that of every other semi-arid country, depends on the available water supply. It is, therefore, of vital importance not only to secure all water resources already feeding the country, but also to be able to conserve and control them at their sources. ”

The Hermon is Palestine‘s real “Father of Waters,” and cannot be severed from it without striking at the very root of its economic life. The Hermon not only needs re-afforestation but also other works before it can again adequately serve the water reservoir of the country. It must therefore, be wholly under the control of those who will most willingly as well as most adequately restore it its maximum utility. Some international arrangement must be made whereby the riparian rights of the people dwelling south of the Litani River may be fully protected. Properly cared for, these headwaters can be made to serve in the development of the Lebanon as well as of Palestine.

The fertile plains east of the Jordan, since the earliest Biblical times, have been linked economically and politically with the land west of the Jordan. The country which is now very sparsely populated, in Roman times supported a great population. It could now serve admirably for colonisation on a large scale. A just regard for the economic needs of Palestine and Arabia demands that free access to the Hedjaz Railway throughout its length be accorded both Governments.

An intensive development of the agriculture and other opportunities of Trans-Jordania make it imperative that Palestine shall have access to the Red Sea and an opportunity of developing good harbours on the Gulf of Akaba. Akaba, it will be recalled, was the terminus of an important trade route of Palestine from the days of Solomon onwards. The ports developed in the Gulf of Akaba should be free ports through which the commerce of the Hinterland may pass–on the same principle which guides us in suggesting that free access be given to the Hedjaz Railway.

Conclusion.
In every part of the world on the Day of Atonement the Jews pray that “all nations may be united by a common bond, so that the will of God may reign supreme throughout the world.” In the fulfilment of this prayer, the Jews hope that they will be able to take an honourable place in the new community of nations. It is their purpose to establish in Palestine a government dedicated to social and national justice; a government that shall be guided, like the community of old, by that justice and equality which is expressed in the great precept of our Lawgiver: “There shall be but one law for you and the stranger in the land.”

All of which is respectfully submitted.
ROTHSCHILD (LORD WALTER ROTHSCHILD).
On behalf of the Zionist Organisation,
NAHUM SOKOLOW.
CHAIM WEIZMANN.
On behalf of Zionist Organisation of America,
JULIAN W. MACK.
STEPHEN S. WISE.
HARRY FRIEDENWALD.
JACOB DE HAAS.
MARY FELS.
LOUIS ROBISON.
BERNARD FLEXNER.
On behalf of the Russian Zionist Organisation,
ISRAEL ROSOFF.
On behalf of the Jewish Population of Palestine in accordance with Mandate received,
NAHUM SOKOLOW.
CHAIM WEIZMANN.

Mary, don’t worry about that, because the folks who are going to ignore you wish to rewrite history to their favor.

Clearly the land has been called Palestine since Emperor Hadrian latinized the name in 135AD.

And though some ignorant folks wish to portray the term as an “outsiders” term, it wasn’t how the Zionist Organization who appealed to the League of Nations felt. They repeatedly refer the land as Palestine, and no mention of the land being called “Israel” is even mentioned in their request for support of a Jewish Homeland in 1919.

Mary, don’t be distracted, the term is being disputed in order to forget history, not to clarify it.

The Zionist Organization who call the area Palestine over and over. So enough about British maps, Empire and such…that is a distraction by an ignorant poster:

Here’s the advocation of building the Jewish Homeland…filled with Palestine, Palestine, Palestine:

Jewish proposal for Jewish Homeland, 1919
From the Proposals Presented by the Zionist Organisation to the Paris Peace Conference, 1919
The Zionist Organisation respectfully submits the following draft resolutions for the consideration of the Peace Conference:-

1 – The High Contracting Parties recognise the historic title of the Jewish people to Palestine and the right of the Jews to reconstitute in Palestine their National Home.

2. The boundaries of Palestine shall be as declared in the Schedule annexed hereto.

3. The sovereign possession of Palestine shall he vested in the League of Nations and the Government entrusted to Great Britain as Mandatory of the League.

4. (Provision to be inserted relating to the application in Palestine of such of the general conditions attached to mandates as are suitable to the case.)

5. The mandate shall be subject also to the following special conditions:-

(I.) Palestine shall be placed under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment there of the Jewish National Home, and ultimately render possible the creation of an autonomous Commonwealth, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

(II.) To this end the Mandatory Power shall inter alia:

(a) promote Jewish immigration and close settlement on the land, the established rights of the present non-Jewish population being equitably safeguarded.

(b) Accept the co-operation in such measures of a Council representative of the Jews in Palestine and of the world that may be established for the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine and entrust the organisation of Jewish education to such Council.

(c) On being satisfied that the constitution of such Council precludes the making of private profit, offer to the Council in priority any concession for public works or for the development of natural resources which it may be found desirable to grant.

(III.) The Mandatory Power shall encourage the widest measure of self-government for localities practicable in the conditions of the country.

(IV.) There shall be for ever the fullest freedom of religious worship for all creeds in Palestine. There shall be no discrimination among the inhabitants with regard to citizenship and civil rights, on the grounds of religion, or of race.

(V.) (Provision to be inserted relating to the control of the Holy Places.)

The Boundaries of Palestine.
Schedule.

The boundaries of Palestine shall follow the general lines set out below:-

Starting on the North at a point on the Mediterranean Sea in the vicinity south of Sidon and following the watersheds of the foothills of the Lebanon as far as JISR EL KARAON, thence to EL BIRE, following the dividing line between the two basins of the WADI EL KORN and the WADI ET TEIM, thence in a southerly direction following the dividing line between the Eastern and Western slopes of the HERMON, to the vicinity west of BEIT JENN, thence eastward following the northern watersheds of the NAHR MUGHANIYE close to and west of the Hedjaz Railway.

In the east a line close to and west of Hedjaz Railway terminating in the Gulf of Akaba.

In the south a frontier to be agreed upon with the Egyptian Government.

In the west the Mediterranean Sea.

The details of the delimitation’s, or any necessary adjustments of detail, shall be settled by a Special Commission on which there shall be Jewish representation.

Great Britain as Mandatory of the League of Nations.
We ask that Great Britain shall act as Mandatory of the League of Nations for Palestine. The selection of Great Britain as Mandatory is urged on the ground that this is the wish of the Jews of the world, and the League of Nations in selecting a Mandatory will follow as far as possible the popular wish of the people concerned.

The preference on the part of the Jews for a British Trusteeship is unquestionably the result of the peculiar relationship of England to the Jewish Palestinian problem. The return of the Jews to Zion has not only been a remarkable feature in English literature, but in the domain of statecraft it has played its part, beginning with the readmission of the Jews under Cromwell. It manifested itself particularly in the nineteenth century in the instructions given to British Consular representatives in the Orient after the Damascus incident; in the various Jewish Palestinian projects suggested by English non-Jews prior to 1881; in the letters of endorsement and support given by members of the Royal Family and Officers of the Government to Lawrence Oliphant; and, finally, in the three consecutive acts which definitely associated Great Britain with Zionism in the minds of the Jews, viz.: the El Arish offer in 1901; the East African offer in 1903, and, lastly, the British Declaration in favour of a Jewish National Home in Palestine in 1917. Moreover, the Jews who have gained political experience in many lands under a great variety of governmental systems, whole-heartedly appreciate the advanced and liberal policies adopted by Great Britain in her modern colonial administration.

It may be stated without doubt that all of these things account for the attitude taken by the Jews with reference to the Trusteeship, as evidenced by the following:-

On December 16th, 1918, the American Jewish Congress composed of delegates representing 3,000,000 American Jews adopted the following resolution:

“The American Jewish Congress instruct their delegation to Europe to co-operate with representatives of other Jewish Organisations and specifically with the World Zionist Organisation, to the end that the Peace Conference may recognise the aspirations and historic claims of the Jewish people with regard to Palestine, and declare that, in accordance with the British Government’s Declaration of November 2nd, 1917, endorsed by the Allied Governments and the President of the United States, there shall be established such political administrative and economic conditions in Palestine, as will assure under the trusteeship of Great Britain, acting on behalf of such League of Nations as may be formed, the development of Palestine into a Jewish Commonwealth; it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which shall prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in other countries.”

Similar action was taken in Jaffa in the month of December, 1918, by a conference of representatives of the Jewish population in Palestine, and on January 4th, 1919, by Jewish Congresses representing about two million Jews of the reconstituted States of Austria-Hungary and of Poland.

Boundaries.
The boundaries outlined are what we consider essential for the necessary economic foundation of the country. Palestine must have its natural outlets to the seas and the control of its rivers and their headwaters. The boundaries are sketched with the general economic needs and historic traditions of the country in mind, factors which necessarily must also be considered by the Special Commission in fixing the definite boundary lines. This Commission will bear in mind that it is highly desirable, in the interests of economical administration, that the geographical area of Palestine should be as large as possible, so that it may eventually contain a large and thriving population which could more easily bear the burdens of modem civilised government than a small country with a necessary limitation of inhabitants.

The economic life of Palestine, like that of every other semi-arid country, depends on the available water supply. It is, therefore, of vital importance not only to secure all water resources already feeding the country, but also to be able to conserve and control them at their sources. ”

The Hermon is Palestine‘s real “Father of Waters,” and cannot be severed from it without striking at the very root of its economic life. The Hermon not only needs re-afforestation but also other works before it can again adequately serve the water reservoir of the country. It must therefore, be wholly under the control of those who will most willingly as well as most adequately restore it its maximum utility. Some international arrangement must be made whereby the riparian rights of the people dwelling south of the Litani River may be fully protected. Properly cared for, these headwaters can be made to serve in the development of the Lebanon as well as of Palestine.

The fertile plains east of the Jordan, since the earliest Biblical times, have been linked economically and politically with the land west of the Jordan. The country which is now very sparsely populated, in Roman times supported a great population. It could now serve admirably for colonisation on a large scale. A just regard for the economic needs of Palestine and Arabia demands that free access to the Hedjaz Railway throughout its length be accorded both Governments.

An intensive development of the agriculture and other opportunities of Trans-Jordania make it imperative that Palestine shall have access to the Red Sea and an opportunity of developing good harbours on the Gulf of Akaba. Akaba, it will be recalled, was the terminus of an important trade route of Palestine from the days of Solomon onwards. The ports developed in the Gulf of Akaba should be free ports through which the commerce of the Hinterland may pass–on the same principle which guides us in suggesting that free access be given to the Hedjaz Railway.

Conclusion.
In every part of the world on the Day of Atonement the Jews pray that “all nations may be united by a common bond, so that the will of God may reign supreme throughout the world.” In the fulfilment of this prayer, the Jews hope that they will be able to take an honourable place in the new community of nations. It is their purpose to establish in Palestine a government dedicated to social and national justice; a government that shall be guided, like the community of old, by that justice and equality which is expressed in the great precept of our Lawgiver: “There shall be but one law for you and the stranger in the land.”

All of which is respectfully submitted.
ROTHSCHILD (LORD WALTER ROTHSCHILD).
On behalf of the Zionist Organisation,
NAHUM SOKOLOW.
CHAIM WEIZMANN.
On behalf of Zionist Organisation of America,
JULIAN W. MACK.
STEPHEN S. WISE.
HARRY FRIEDENWALD.
JACOB DE HAAS.
MARY FELS.
LOUIS ROBISON.
BERNARD FLEXNER.
On behalf of the Russian Zionist Organisation,
ISRAEL ROSOFF.
On behalf of the Jewish Population of Palestine in accordance with Mandate received,
NAHUM SOKOLOW.
CHAIM WEIZMANN.

Mary, don’t worry about that, because the folks who are going to ignore you wish to rewrite history to their favor.

Clearly the land has been called Palestine since Emperor Hadrian latinized the name in 135AD.

And though some ignorant folks wish to portray the term as an “outsiders” term, it wasn’t how the Zionist Organization who appealed to the League of Nations felt. They repeatedly refer the land as Palestine, and no mention of the land being called “Israel” is even mentioned in their request for support of a Jewish Homeland in 1919.

Mary, don’t be distracted, the term is being disputed in order to forget history, not to clarify it.

The Zionist Organization who call the area Palestine over and over. So enough about British maps, Empire and such…that is a distraction by an ignorant poster:

Here’s the advocation of building the Jewish Homeland…filled with Palestine, Palestine, Palestine:

Jewish proposal for Jewish Homeland, 1919

From the Proposals Presented by the Zionist Organisation to the Paris Peace Conference, 1919

The Zionist Organisation respectfully submits the following draft resolutions for the consideration of the Peace Conference:-

1 – The High Contracting Parties recognise the historic title of the Jewish people to Palestine and the right of the Jews to reconstitute in Palestine their National Home.

2. The boundaries of Palestine shall be as declared in the Schedule annexed hereto.

3. The sovereign possession of Palestine shall he vested in the League of Nations and the Government entrusted to Great Britain as Mandatory of the League.

4. (Provision to be inserted relating to the application in Palestine of such of the general conditions attached to mandates as are suitable to the case.)

5. The mandate shall be subject also to the following special conditions:-

(I.) Palestine shall be placed under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment there of the Jewish National Home, and ultimately render possible the creation of an autonomous Commonwealth, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

(II.) To this end the Mandatory Power shall inter alia:

(a) promote Jewish immigration and close settlement on the land, the established rights of the present non-Jewish population being equitably safeguarded.

(b) Accept the co-operation in such measures of a Council representative of the Jews in Palestine and of the world that may be established for the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine and entrust the organisation of Jewish education to such Council.

(c) On being satisfied that the constitution of such Council precludes the making of private profit, offer to the Council in priority any concession for public works or for the development of natural resources which it may be found desirable to grant.

(III.) The Mandatory Power shall encourage the widest measure of self-government for localities practicable in the conditions of the country.

(IV.) There shall be for ever the fullest freedom of religious worship for all creeds in Palestine. There shall be no discrimination among the inhabitants with regard to citizenship and civil rights, on the grounds of religion, or of race.

(V.) (Provision to be inserted relating to the control of the Holy Places.)

The Boundaries of Palestine.

Schedule.

The boundaries of Palestine shall follow the general lines set out below:-

Starting on the North at a point on the Mediterranean Sea in the vicinity south of Sidon and following the watersheds of the foothills of the Lebanon as far as JISR EL KARAON, thence to EL BIRE, following the dividing line between the two basins of the WADI EL KORN and the WADI ET TEIM, thence in a southerly direction following the dividing line between the Eastern and Western slopes of the HERMON, to the vicinity west of BEIT JENN, thence eastward following the northern watersheds of the NAHR MUGHANIYE close to and west of the Hedjaz Railway.

In the east a line close to and west of Hedjaz Railway terminating in the Gulf of Akaba.

In the south a frontier to be agreed upon with the Egyptian Government.

In the west the Mediterranean Sea.

The details of the delimitation’s, or any necessary adjustments of detail, shall be settled by a Special Commission on which there shall be Jewish representation.

Great Britain as Mandatory of the League of Nations.

We ask that Great Britain shall act as Mandatory of the League of Nations for Palestine. The selection of Great Britain as Mandatory is urged on the ground that this is the wish of the Jews of the world, and the League of Nations in selecting a Mandatory will follow as far as possible the popular wish of the people concerned.

The preference on the part of the Jews for a British Trusteeship is unquestionably the result of the peculiar relationship of England to the Jewish Palestinian problem. The return of the Jews to Zion has not only been a remarkable feature in English literature, but in the domain of statecraft it has played its part, beginning with the readmission of the Jews under Cromwell. It manifested itself particularly in the nineteenth century in the instructions given to British Consular representatives in the Orient after the Damascus incident; in the various Jewish Palestinian projects suggested by English non-Jews prior to 1881; in the letters of endorsement and support given by members of the Royal Family and Officers of the Government to Lawrence Oliphant; and, finally, in the three consecutive acts which definitely associated Great Britain with Zionism in the minds of the Jews, viz.: the El Arish offer in 1901; the East African offer in 1903, and, lastly, the British Declaration in favour of a Jewish National Home in Palestine in 1917. Moreover, the Jews who have gained political experience in many lands under a great variety of governmental systems, whole-heartedly appreciate the advanced and liberal policies adopted by Great Britain in her modern colonial administration.

It may be stated without doubt that all of these things account for the attitude taken by the Jews with reference to the Trusteeship, as evidenced by the following:-

On December 16th, 1918, the American Jewish Congress composed of delegates representing 3,000,000 American Jews adopted the following resolution:

“The American Jewish Congress instruct their delegation to Europe to co-operate with representatives of other Jewish Organisations and specifically with the World Zionist Organisation, to the end that the Peace Conference may recognise the aspirations and historic claims of the Jewish people with regard to Palestine, and declare that, in accordance with the British Government’s Declaration of November 2nd, 1917, endorsed by the Allied Governments and the President of the United States, there shall be established such political administrative and economic conditions in Palestine, as will assure under the trusteeship of Great Britain, acting on behalf of such League of Nations as may be formed, the development of Palestine into a Jewish Commonwealth; it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which shall prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in other countries.”

Similar action was taken in Jaffa in the month of December, 1918, by a conference of representatives of the Jewish population in Palestine, and on January 4th, 1919, by Jewish Congresses representing about two million Jews of the reconstituted States of Austria-Hungary and of Poland.

Boundaries.

The boundaries outlined are what we consider essential for the necessary economic foundation of the country. Palestine must have its natural outlets to the seas and the control of its rivers and their headwaters. The boundaries are sketched with the general economic needs and historic traditions of the country in mind, factors which necessarily must also be considered by the Special Commission in fixing the definite boundary lines. This Commission will bear in mind that it is highly desirable, in the interests of economical administration, that the geographical area of Palestine should be as large as possible, so that it may eventually contain a large and thriving population which could more easily bear the burdens of modem civilised government than a small country with a necessary limitation of inhabitants.

The economic life of Palestine, like that of every other semi-arid country, depends on the available water supply. It is, therefore, of vital importance not only to secure all water resources already feeding the country, but also to be able to conserve and control them at their sources. ”

The Hermon is Palestine‘s real “Father of Waters,” and cannot be severed from it without striking at the very root of its economic life. The Hermon not only needs re-afforestation but also other works before it can again adequately serve the water reservoir of the country. It must therefore, be wholly under the control of those who will most willingly as well as most adequately restore it its maximum utility. Some international arrangement must be made whereby the riparian rights of the people dwelling south of the Litani River may be fully protected. Properly cared for, these headwaters can be made to serve in the development of the Lebanon as well as of Palestine.

The fertile plains east of the Jordan, since the earliest Biblical times, have been linked economically and politically with the land west of the Jordan. The country which is now very sparsely populated, in Roman times supported a great population. It could now serve admirably for colonisation on a large scale. A just regard for the economic needs of Palestine and Arabia demands that free access to the Hedjaz Railway throughout its length be accorded both Governments.

An intensive development of the agriculture and other opportunities of Trans-Jordania make it imperative that Palestine shall have access to the Red Sea and an opportunity of developing good harbours on the Gulf of Akaba. Akaba, it will be recalled, was the terminus of an important trade route of Palestine from the days of Solomon onwards. The ports developed in the Gulf of Akaba should be free ports through which the commerce of the Hinterland may pass–on the same principle which guides us in suggesting that free access be given to the Hedjaz Railway.

Conclusion.

In every part of the world on the Day of Atonement the Jews pray that “all nations may be united by a common bond, so that the will of God may reign supreme throughout the world.” In the fulfilment of this prayer, the Jews hope that they will be able to take an honourable place in the new community of nations. It is their purpose to establish in Palestine a government dedicated to social and national justice; a government that shall be guided, like the community of old, by that justice and equality which is expressed in the great precept of our Lawgiver: “There shall be but one law for you and the stranger in the land.”

All of which is respectfully submitted.

ROTHSCHILD (LORD WALTER ROTHSCHILD).

On behalf of the Zionist Organisation,

NAHUM SOKOLOW.

CHAIM WEIZMANN.

On behalf of Zionist Organisation of America,

JULIAN W. MACK.

STEPHEN S. WISE.

HARRY FRIEDENWALD.

JACOB DE HAAS.

MARY FELS.

LOUIS ROBISON.

BERNARD FLEXNER.

On behalf of the Russian Zionist Organisation,

ISRAEL ROSOFF.

On behalf of the Jewish Population of Palestine in accordance with Mandate received,

NAHUM SOKOLOW.

CHAIM WEIZMANN.

“Or was it just some unsubstantiated sputtering on a website that you pulled out to belie your extreme bias for Hamas?”

Sorry, but you need to quit your insinuation bullshit here. You keep assaulting people with this sort of idiot bullshit and you will simply have no credibility.

There has been nobody on this site expressing bias FOR HAMAS. You keep pulling this hyperbole over and over again and it shows you aren’t capable of telling the truth, representing the truth, or perhaps even seeing the truth.

Quit accusing people of supporting Hamas unless they state they support Hamas. Supporting Palestinian citizens isn’t supporting Hamas. If you keep saying it is, you are simply a liar.

Mubarak has been bought and paid for by the US!

SOUNDS LIKE RACISM HAS RAISED IT’S UGLY HEAD:

“Oh yeah…and I’m REALLY happy that the FRAUD will steal MY hard earned money and hand it off to lazy azzes in America who refuse to work, smoke crack all day, and have 15 kids whose fathers they never saw again…when good, decent hardworking Israelis need some help too. Yeah, that SUX AZZ.”

US (AND THE US TAXPAYER CONTRIBUTION) TO ISRAEL AMOUNTS TO $57,000 PER ISRAELI. I think that’s a lot more than many US citizens make who work 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. Total costs of our contribution to that country over the years is estimated at 1.6 – 3.0 TRILLION US DOLLARS.

Barb, this idiot won’t listen to you no unless you put on the right hat, damnit. Get over the facts…go with your emotions!