Current Article

Watching Death Day and Night So Close By. . .

By Steve Clemons on January 6, 2009 at 9:30 PM in Current Affairs

(Steve Clemons’ blog is The Washington Note; be sure to vote for Steve’s blog as “The Best Very Large Blog” in the 2008 Weblog Awards. Steve Clemons serves as Senior Fellow & Director, American Strategy Program, New America Foundation and, in his spare time, as Director of the Japan Policy Research Institute.)

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the_funeral_of_three_children_from_al_astal_family_killed_by_the_israeli_shelling_on_their_home_on_friday__photo_by_wafa.jpg I have just been communicating in the last few minutes with two friends over Facebook — one a prominent Jewish American blogger now visiting family in an Orthodox community in Israel — and the other a prominent Arab Muslim blogger living in the Middle East.

I don’t want to disclose the identities of either.

But my friend in Israel asked me for some help on shaping questions that he might pose to various Israel pols.

I shared with him some of my thoughts on what he could ask. . .particularly the question of how Israel views long term US support.

I told him that in my view America’s increasingly consequential failures to generate stability in the Middle East is like an eroding levee in New Orleans — and those levees at some point are going to fail leaving Israel quite vulnerable unless Israel and other stakeholding neighbors achieve a different equilibrium in the region. . .and soon. There is great doubt around the world in the ability of America to pursue and achieve its objectives — and this doubt has consequences for Israel’s national security calculus, whether it is acknowledging it or not.

This friend is not far from the action in Gaza, and he has serious doubts about Israel’s course.

I give him a lot of credit for trying to think this through, particularly given the hawkishness of many around whom he is living right now.

And from my Arabic blogging friend, I received this note — and I should add that this guy is about as positive about “modernity” as one can find in Middle East blogging circles:

Happy new year Steve ..

though GAZA is making this new year very sad for us here .. but i’ll try to smile whenever i can ..

i might stop blogging until the war finishes .. it is really hard watching death day and night so close by ..

any way ..

how are the 1st world countries doing ?

I agree with Zbigniew Brzezinski that the worsening tragedy in Gaza is part of the blur we have been seeing for some time. I put a lot of the blame on Labor Party Leader and Defense Minister Ehud Barak who has been itching to manage a war.

But as Brzezinski said, the Israelis and Palestinians have proven unable to rise to a level of strategic, forward-looking maturity to solve this problem and others now need to stabilize the situation, engage in a credible peace negotiation process that involves the other major Arab stakeholders, the US and Europe.

Having the Saudis, Jordanians, Egyptians, Americans, and Europeans impose a solution can’t be worse than what we are seeing today.

– Steve Clemons

Manu

Any pictures of dead Israeli children? Anyone?

ces

Yeah, because pictures of ANY dead children isn’t enough.

JFHC.

Picture this: you’re in a glass house and somebody is throwing some rocks at you, but you have a lot of nice shiny big rocks. To protect yourself you lob those nice big rocks outside at anybody who looks at you funny. Pretty soon you realize those rocks are all outside in the hands of those outside, and you have nothing left.

This WE THEY thing is making a lot of people fucking irrational.

http://theheraclitanfire.blogspot.com/ Craig Della Penna

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make with Larry – both the Israelis and the Palestinians are incapable at this point of solving the mess. Call them ineffectual or call them pawns – they can’t do it anymore (if, indeed, they ever could).

If there is to be peace in that region, others will have to impose it. This is the only way it can happen now.

Zeke

I think the point Israel is trying to make is that the TWO of them, as they are, are never going to have peace. So Israel, knowing as I stated elsewhere on this blog that Obama is going to abandon them, as so many of you have already asked for. They are cleaning house now while Bush can veto the Security Council. Peace has more definitions than “just getting along.” The absence of conflict is also peace and can be achieved by eliminating the opponents ability to be un-peaceful. Israel is attempting to make peace the old fashioned way… the Eleventh Century Way… the only way radical Islam ever learns anything.
They are nothing but Grizzly shit.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

It’s really simple. If Hamas, the PLO, etc. don’t want dead kids then they can stop bombing Israel. It doesn’t MATTER whether Israeli kids died or not. We should be grateful for that. What matters is that the Israelis face continual attacks and they GET TO retaliate. Period. If they don’t want kids dying over there then they should PUT DOWN THEIR OWN ROCKETS AND LAY OFF FRIGGING ISRAEL.

WildChild

well, at lest you got the frigging part right. Israel has been frigging the Palestinians for thirty years.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Nah…that’s ~~regessive~~ “progressive” talk. I will listen to people like Mayor Bloomberg this time, rather than the wing nut blogging stuff. But, like I said, have a great 2009 Wildchild.

WildChild

so you get your information from the billionaire Jew. Let me guess LOL, he’s all for the current beat down

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Awwww I thought the wing nuts liked Bloomberg? Sigh. He’s a big Fraudbama friend isn’t he? He’s all for the LOGICAL thing. Why don’t you, instead of being bitter and judgmental, look at the youtube clip of what he said on CNN. The logic might not work for you…you know…supporting terrorism in one part of the world only welcomes it on US and others…pretty simple. Try the logical POV this time.

WildChild

ROFLMAO, sweetness, you’re the one all gaga over bloomberg. spread your winds and fly away..

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

“spread my winds?” WTF is a “wind?” Is that perverted oh Wildchild LOL? Not gaga over Bloomberg just listened to what he said and thought it made sense. And I applaud him for getting on a plane and GOING there. Good of him to do something, other than sit on his azz doing some serious REVISIONIST blogging.

WildChild

wind is all you have left girl since both of your right wings no longer have any movement. LOL and yes it’s a tragedy for ah, pretty much just you right fringers. Heh Heh Heh
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Tsk tsk Wildchild…I don’t have two right wings…Must be frustrating that I don’t fit your bitter, angry little mold of hate. I’m not allowed in the right wing club, due to my undying support for pro-choice and gay marriage. Guess I don’t have an island. You wing nut freaks won’t have me until I support terrorism, the right wingers don’t love my social views. Wait, isn’t there something called a moderate? Can I join that club? That would piss you off wouldn’t it?

PS I bet you love Oliver Stone movies. He likes revisionist history just like YOU!
WildChild

bitter angry mold of hate….? LOL now your talking like the BOBO, with just enough right fringer mixed in to blur the line between the opposing fringes.
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Oh please Wildchild…the day I talk like the BOBO…can you grow up and stop the generalizing of people who just might not be as far to the looney left as you are? No wonder people say the far left is mental illness.
WildChild

hey. from the right fringe the center looks left. Don’t blame me for your view. I didn’t put you there.
http://americanpumainitaly.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

and we are surprised this conflict can’t be resolved?

people can’t even have civilized discussions about the conflict, but we expect two warring countries to come to an agreement…? i don’t see it happening.
Mary

Unfortunately, over the last few days, I’ve noticed that in all of ObamaIsAFraud’s conversations, she breaks down into an emotional cat fight, calling names and completely leaving any sphere of rational, civilized conversation.

But she has “ballz,” she says.

No facts, no civility, but ballz.

I think it’s time for all of us to refrain from conversation with her at all.

We’re not IN high school anymore.

Joe Biden’s scalp hurts

The billionaire Jew?

What would Warren Buffet do, we need to hear from a billionaire goyim.

don tufts

this is all at the feet of the arabs,if the mufati of juraslasum hadnt called for his people to evacuate in 1947 so the arab armies could push the jews into the sea and eliminate them we might have a different outcome now.how long would any of you stand by and let your neighbor take potshots into your house without the cops doing anything,i know i wouldnt ,but maybee your more saintly than i am!

mountainaires

Don Tufts: You are completely clueless as to the Israeli/Palestinian history:

Avi Shlaim is Israel’s preeminent historian and a few years ago published a tour de force history of Israel titled, The Iron Wall.

Shlaim writes that he now believes Israel is a “rogue state.”

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state’s legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

wodiej

Amen to that…

candymarl

Any pictures of any dead children is a tragedy.

The piece is about bringing an imposed sanity to both sides. Once again it seems to be about whose lives are worth more.

As a human being I don’t see the difference.

Deciding one group is less than the other in terms of death and tragedy has led to some of the worse atrocities by humans.

It’s wrong to kill Israeli children. Period. It’s wrong to kill Palestinian children. Period. Adults started this conflict.

I’ve said before there are fanatics on both sides.

Perhaps we could put a monetary value on the lives of each age group on each side and see how it adds up. Obviously the side with the most killed would have the most value.

Not very funny is it?

We need to find solutions not continue to assign blame. There’s plenty to go around.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Three-Basic-Parenting-Styles&id=744499 Northwest rain

Well said. I’ve nothing to add.

Dead children make me sad — doesn’t matter the color or the religion — their deaths were caused by stupid adults.
William L. Donlon

Candymarl:

There are 3 questions that need to be asked:

1. Why was the U.N. allowing Hamas to use the school to stockpile weapons??

2. Why was the U.N. allowing hamas the use of the School Grounds to fire on Israel troops?

3. Why was the U.N. keeping woman and children as Human Shields for Hamas?

The school grounds were being used by terrorists to fire mortar shells at troops stationed nearby, and the soldiers responded by firing mortars back, the army said. According to the IDF, the dead included members of the Hamas rocket cell, including senior operatives Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar.

Defense officials told The Associated Press that booby-trapped bombs in the school had triggered secondary explosions that killed additional Palestinians there.

Today, a reported 30 Palestinians were killed in a heartrending tragedy at a school in Jebaliya. Initial investigations indicate that Hamas terrorists fired mortar bombs from the area of the school towards Israeli forces, who returned fire towards the source of the shooting. The Israeli return fire landed outside the school, yet a series of explosions followed, indicating the probable presence of munitions and explosives in the building. Intelligence indicates that among those killed were Immad Abu Iskar and Hassan Abu Iskar, two known Hamas mortar crewmen.

20,000 Hamas thugs are holding the 1,300,000 people of GAZA, including the U.N., hostage.

Hamas started this war and it continues to fire rockets into Israel.

Hamas continues to use women and children as human shields in clear violation of all international law.

candymarl

This isn’t about UN policy. The UN doesn’t control my compassion or humanity.

That is my point. These children had nothing to do with the conflict. That’s where my heart is. If you want to argue policy instead of human feelings fine.

I think I’ll stick to understanding, as a parent, the heartbreak of those on both sides.

Hating, blame, and policy discussions are easy.

Finding common ground and healing is hard. Seems to me the leaders on both sides don’t want to do the hard work.

But that’s just me.
candymarl

The UN does not control my humanity or my opinion.

My comment was not about UN policy, HAMAS, or any of that. It was about the human cost of the conflict.

As a parent I can understand, to a certain degree, the anger and grief on both sides.

I am simply agreeing with the poster that intervention is needed since neither side seems to be listening. I have said repeatedly that there are fanatics on both sides.

What is it about that you don’t understand? Or don’t dead children bother you? No matter who you think is at fault.
elise

William, if the IDF reports an incident one way and the UN reports contradict it, which one will you believe?

William L. Donlon

Elise:

The IDF!

And The A.P.

They are not being held hostage by a terrorist organization.

Two residents of the area who spoke by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal…

Two residents who spoke to an AP reporter by phone said the two brothers [jihadis killed at the scene] were known to be low-level Hamas militants. They said a group of militants — one of them said four — were firing mortar shells from near the school.

An Israeli shell targeted the men, but missed and they fled, the witnesses said, refusing to allow their names to be published because they feared for their safety. Then another three shells landed touching off secondary explosions in the school, they said.

Palestinian militants have frequently fired from residential areas in the past.

elise

If you prefer to believe anonymous sources, I respect your viewpoint, but I would rather have more information.

“Palestinian militants have frequently fired from residential areas in the past.”

Would you mind providing some sources who can prove what they are saying and are not afraid to offer their names?

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] Hamas describes its conflict with Israel as political and not religious[6] or antisemitic.[7] However, its founding charter, writings, and many of its public statements[8] reflect the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories.[9]

Elise, this is very frustrating because you refuse to acknowledge that it’s in the charter. You conveniently left out the passage about “Islam obliterating Israel.” It’s in black and white for God’s sake. It’s in front of your face…are you a troll? Seriously I’m not being mean, but are you? The above is from Wiki with a clear disclaimer that the information has been checked repeatedly for “neutrality.” I don’t have time but I can come back tomorrow and post more and more videos, links, etc. about Hamas. But, really, they are what they are. I’m sorry you won’t accept it.

elise

OIAF, you must know I’m not a troll. I am not unsympathetic to you. I know this situation is causing you pain and I’m sorry for that. I oppose war where ever it is and what ever the rationalization.

I don’t think you are able to be objective. Contrary to what you believe, I have read and am still reading the history of the conflict, trying so hard to understand. I will repeat again I am not defending actions by Hamas. Ever. And I will repeat again, our family is a strong supporter of Israel’s right to exist.

I have frequently criticized the government of the US and will continue to do so when I disagree. If you can accept that, why are you unable to accept the idea I will criticize Israel when I disagree. Consider just the past two years.

In 2006 Israel invaded Lebanon. The circumstances were no different than a hundred times before. The Palestinians took a hostage and tried to negotiate a trade of prisoners. It had been done many times before and Israel had agreed. I read at the time, the plan had been in place for five years to invade Lebanon. There was heavy bombing in Beirut, people died, their homes were destroyed and parts of the city were leveled.

A few months ago, Israel unilaterally bombed Syria because they believed Syria had a nuclear facility. They didn’t go to the UN, even though they have a powerful friend on the Security Council.

During the last cease fire, they “accidentally” bombed a family of Palestinians having a picnic on the beach. OOPS.

Iran threatens Israel, Israel threatens Iran. The IAEA has no proof of the intent of, or plans to build a nuclear weapon, but for the sake of argument, let us assume they do. It is 2,600 miles round trip from Iran to Israel which means re-fuelling and Iran doesn’t have that capability. They would have to fly over several countries to get to Israel and would no doubt be seen on the radar the instant they left their base.

Take the other argument; the sale of nuclear material or weapons to Hamas or Hezbollah. Israel has the largest number of nuclear weapons in the ME and delivery capabilities. If they have anything near what has been reported, they can destroy the other countries in the ME. Does anyone believe that an entire nation is ready to commit suicide in order to destroy Israel? Iran may be a theocracy, but it’s population is more western in their thinking.

I want the Truth, logical, fact based Truth because that is the only way this conflict will ever end. The propaganda from both sides is unending. I have been asking this question forever it seems and haven’t gotten an answer. What does Israel want and what does Palestine want?

I can tell you what I think the answer is. Israel wants land. All of it. Palestine wants land. Part of it. The Arab countries don’t feel safe with a nuclear power in their midst and want to contain Israel. The partition in 1947 created two states, but it was an illusion. This was right after the Holocaust and the world vowed never to forget. The creation of a Jewish state was supposed to be a promise it would never happen again.

Forget ancient history for a moment and consider the region before WW2. It was predominately Arab. They had only a peripheral involvement in that war, yet after the peace treaties were signed by the Axis and Allied countries (in which they had no say) their land was divided. The actual land they lived on, they were told now belonged to someone else. Hundreds of thousands left, but others stayed and the people who stayed became stateless.

At the beginning of the talks to form a new state of Israel, David Ben Gurion himself, was clear on the intent to force the remaining Palestinians out of the region. I can’t be sure my conclusions are completely accurate. If it is, the only possible solution is pressure from the US and other western countries and the Arab states to use diplomacy to force an end to the violence.

Sorry this comment is so long.

William L. Donlon

Elise:

This was reported by the A.P.

Like you, I would prefer eyes on by a neutral reporter but under these conditions it’s the best the A.P. has.

Investigations after the conflicts always show that there are exaggerations and out right lies by both sides.

In some cases the”Fog Of War”

What you thought you saw, you didn’t.

At this time it’s all we have.

You asked who I go with–

The IDF and the A.P.

Mary

AP got its information from the IDF.

The UN representative who was actually IN that bombed building disagrees, and has demanded an investigation.

The IDF actually bombed TWO United Nations schools being used as refugee centers.

These claims have not been verified at all.

There’s a REASON the IDF has forbidden the international press from entry into Gaza.

They did the same in Lebanon to keep the press from reporting that they used cluster bombs on civilians, which is strictly FORBIDDEN by the United Nations.

You’re very naive to believe the IDF propaganda, or the AP’s reporting of same without verification.

xax

Why would you expect the UN to do anything? All they do is sit around and make declarations that no one cares about.

The UN is a joke.

Mary

NOt anymore.

The Israelis have now been FORCED by the international community to open a “humanitarian corridor” for 3 hours every day for food, fuel, and medical supplies.

The countries on the Security Council speaking out against the invasion by Israel now include Costa Rica, Austria, China, India, Malaysia, and Indonesia.

The time when the United States could protect any Israeli abominations and then bully other countries to support –or veto any request for a ceasefire, like we did during the Lebanon slaughter–are OVER.

The speeches I watched on C-Span angrily condemning Israel for its actions in Gaza were ALL demanding a ceasefire and humanitarian aide . Well, except for Condi Rice and the United States, and Israel.

The day after these speeches , Israel was forced to comply.

The world has turned against them, and mostly because the shelling of 2 United Nations schools being used for refugee centers, killing lots of children, was deeply offensive to countries who may have stayed quiet before.

Israel has damaged itself internationally.

There will be blowback, which they clearly deserve.
Mary

Uh, no.

The UN has just FORCED Israel to open a humanitarian corridor for food, fuel, and medical supplies.

I’d say it’s Israel who’s the joke now.

The rest of the world is disgusted by their choices, and Israel has now complied with UN demands.

Well done, United Nations!

MrMike

If the Israelis had a miracle weapon that only killed terrorists do you really think it would lessen lessen the hatred?
Here’s a novel idea, the Arab leaders curb the hate speech coming from the mosques and recognize Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. After all the middle east is composed of defacto Muslim states.
Next they could make an honest effort to stop terrorism.
Only problem then would be without Jews to scapegoat the people would turn on their leaders that have been ripping them off all these years.
elise

What does Israel want and what does Palestine want? If someone would just answer this question without adding any propaganda, it might be helpful. The Truth can’t be heard over all the noise.

I have looked all over the Internet for an instance where Hamas called for the death of Israel. If someone has a link, please show it to me and that is not said in the spirit of confrontation, I am just trying to research because I want the truth.

What I have seen is many Arab countries dispute Israel’s right to exist as a separate country. They declared their independence from Palestine in 1948 and I would like to know if that was part of the United Nations agreement. From what I have read, the Arab countries argued against Israeli independence because it meant Palestine would have no position of power in areas with Palestinian citizens.

What is the Truth? Here is another honest question not meant to offend anyone; Why has the US policy always favored Israel? There can be no doubt the Israeli lobby, the AIPAC, is very powerful in Washington, but does that explain why the US is standing alone with Israel when the rest of the world is condemning their actions. It reminds me of the story about a woman whose son is marching in a parade and asks, why is every one out of step except y son?

I am not saying the AIPAC is not being completely honest, but they are, non the less, a propaganda organization by definition. There are charges and counter-charges on both sides and it is very emotional. I watched Geraldo Rivera’s show on Sunday night and I was, frankly, appalled. He had several pro-Israel guests and one Palestinian. He was so rude to the Palestinian guest so obviously biased so dismissive, I was embarrassed for him and I have always admired his objectivity on other issues.

Does either side ever negotiate in good faith?

WildChild

One side isn’t a sovereign state. So technically it’s not even a side. It’s an indigenous population. It’s supposed to be arguing it’s position through it’s representatives in the statehouse. But it isn’t allowed there, or really anywhere else for that matter.
HARP

It`s quite simple.

Israel wants a two state solution.

Hamas wants a one state solution.

WildChild

but for all the Israelis that Israel keeps trucking into the west bank, Israel could implement a two state solution anytime it wants. Which would give the Palestinians the one state that is still denied them… their own.
Zeke

Hamas is about to get its wish.
2 – 1 = 1
Hamas just mistook which 1 they were.
Math is such a bitch!

WildChild

you got a couple of those numbers wrong.
0 – 0 = 0
nothing gained nothing lost, because the Palestinians ended day the same way they started it, with nothing

William L. Donlon

1,300,000 hostages – 600 human shields = 1,299,400 hostages

But who’s counting??

Certainly not hamas

WildChild

hmm, nice round numbers, Which means you not counting. So what’s left for you, making shit up?

William L. Donlon

WildChild:

I agree with you.

An even 40 killed at the school??

An even 600 killed and going up by an even 55 each night??

“Mostly” women and children.

I didn’t make the numbers up and like you I have my doubts about the “shit”, as you call it, being put out by Hamas.

When the 2006 war with Hezbollah ended a closer examination by the World Press found that Hezbollah had exaurated the casualties by a factor of ten.

A Hezbollah even 500 during the war, was really 47 in one infamous case.

WildChild

You have to forgive them about the numbers from the school. It’s hard to tabulate bits and pieces.

elise

You are truly amazing, WildChild.
William L. Donlon

WildChild:

Again I agree with you.

How do you come up with acurate numbers under these conditions.

There is one thing we can all agree on and that is:

If Hamas stopped using the Palestinian population as Human Shields, the real numbers and the bits and pieces would be much less than it is.

But that is just wishful thinking on my part.

Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Quaita enjoy creating the bits and pieces of civilians.

Mary

That’s like saying the Jewish leadership in the Warsaw Ghetto enjoyed creating the lines for the death camp trains.

Divide and conquer. We all know where the IDF learned those techniques.

How many “bits and pieces” were left after the terrorist organization Irgun bombed the King David Hotel?

Some deaths matter, and some deaths don’t, right, William?

Mort

And after the occupation, then what?

Some would say baiting the better armed enemy into an occupation is the way to beat him — how can he sustain?

Now it’s a matter of pick, pick, pick, forcing Israel to invest ALL of it’s resources in an never ending war. This affects the US, too, as Steve said, the neocon policy of unconditional support for Israel, a disaster.

Like America, and Cheney, in Iraq, the Israeli economy cannot support prepetual war, the Israeli culture cannot produce or progress when it is constantly at war, HATED by the world.

Bottom line, it didn’t work for us, it won’t work for them, either.

elise

Harp, I’ve read Isreal’s policy from the beginning has been to disallow a Palestinian state. Here is a quote attritubed to Moshe Dayan in the 1970′S;

“we must tell the Palestinians, that we have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes, may leave.”

And here is another quote from David Ben Gurion;

..Ben Gurion summed up: ‘With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)…I support compulsory transfer. I don’t see anything immoral in it,’” Israel historian, Benny Morris, “Righteous Victims.”

So, I ask again; What is the Truth?

xax

So quotes from the the 1970s is supposed to apply to 2008 Isreali policy? Despite the fact that Isreal and Fatah (Not Hamas) have been negotiating a two state solution for the past 14 years.

What?

Mary

Actually, xax, in the 1980′s, Israel supported HAMAS and rejected Fatah. They helped finance the development of Hamas so Fatah would fall.

They play all sides, xax.

Always have, always will.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Honestly, I can’t believe what I read here sometimes. Hamas has committed 100% to destroy the Jews and Israel. They train their murderous little children from birth to exist for the destruction of Israel. Sorry that’s not a really Kumbaya thing for y’all to digest. But everyone who doesn’t believe it needs to GROW UP and realize that not everyone is LIKE US. Different religions and cultures have different belief systems. Uhh…HELLO…How about the SUICIDE BOMBERS on 9/11? Not really logical to US now IS IT? But, that’s what they do. Oh yeah, I forgot, it was actually Bush who flew the planes into the towers. My bad. ROFLMAO.

Hamas: Islam Will Rule the World, Destroy Israel and the Jews

by Hana Levi Julian

(IsraelNN.com) The Hamas terrorist organization is conducting a simultaneous battle against Israel and its coalition partner, Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah faction, but not without a “higher” purpose.

According to the Palestinian Media Watch, the Hamas charter specifically mandates the murder of Jews in compliance with what it believes is Divine will. Violence and terror, which Hamas refers to as “resistance”, are considered legitimate tools to be used for this purpose.

Hamas has worked hard to promote this ideology and to train the current and future generations toward this end, using a Mickey Mouse-like character to teach the precepts to PA Arab children and other TV and radio programs to reach the adults.

The PA population has, for the most part, responded enthusiastically to this campaign. Others who are frightened by the fanaticism and culture of murder are doing their best to flee.

Branch offices of foreign ministries from various Arab countries report they have been besieged with tens of thousands of applications by PA Arabs who are desperate to take their families out of the madness.

Islamic clerics, meanwhile, exhort them to remain, resorting even to religious legal rulings that it is forbidden to leave the Palestinian Authority territories and abandon what they insist is their land.

It is clear that Hamas has no intention of ever recognizing the State of Israel’s right to exist. Nor does it intend to end its terrorism, regardless of international mandates to do so.

“We will liberate Palestine, all of Palestine… Palestine will not be liberated by negotiations, committees and decisions. It will only be liberated by the rifle and the al-Kassam [rocket -ed.]. Therefore, prepare yourselves,” declared Hamas spokesman Dr. Ismail Radwan in an April interview with the Hamas-controlled Al-Risalah newspaper.

Ultimately, states former Foreign Minister and Hamas leader Mahmoud Al-Zahhar in a March interview with the Arabic Al-Ayyam newspaper, “Our position is the liberation of Palestine, all of Palestine. This is the final and strategic solution for us……Anyone who denies it must check his faith and his Islam.”

To view the entire report on the Palestinian Media Watch website, click here.

WildChild

Hamas can’t destroy Israel.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

But I suppose it’s okay that they try? LMAO.

WildChild

you call that trying ? ROFLMAO

elise

OIAF, very cleverly presented comment. Most of what you posted was written by a Rabbi, Hana Levi Julian, for IsraelNN.com, is it not? The title of the article, “Hamas: Islam Will Rule the World, Destroy Israel and the Jews” is starkly provocative propaganda.

I read the Hamas Charter and saw nothing about killing Jews. The Arab opposition to the separate state of Israel began with the declaration of independence.

Bringing 9/11 into this discussion is something you need to think about since our response was entirely inappropriate and has done much damage to our country. It is completely unrelated to the Palestinian question and you are too intelligent not to know that. I also ask you to reconsider the phrase, “murderous little children”. It doesn’t reflect well on you and simply escalates the rhetoric.

Your comment is more propaganda and doesn’t answer the most important question: What does Israel want and what does Palestine want?

What is the Truth?

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Elise,

Nice try. I can’t help you with this and I refuse to let you insult me. I have spent the entire day watching videos and reading documents on other sites that diametrically oppose your notion that Hamas is a really great group of people. There are two documentaries about it…one of which I saw on the Discovery Channel recently that scared the hell out of me. I think you are being naive and it’s really rather unusual for someone to not acknowledge that Hamas is what it is…a terrorist group dedicated to violence and the destruction of Israel. I would assume my 10 year old nephew knows that already. Sorry.

elise

OIAF, I’m sorry you have interpreted my comment as a personal insult. I don’t support violence of any kind.

I’m looking for objective information and I don’t believe I am going to get there from a post for IsraelNN.com by a Rabbi any more than I would from Abbas or would have from Arafat.

Again, I apologize if I have offended you, but please consider the possiblity your responses are too emotional and you may be too quick to judge.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Elise,

Thanks for the response. I’m not sure how you could be missing the truth. I really don’t know many people, despite what they feel about Israel’s recent activity, who don’t know what Hamas is. I posted the opening of their charter for you. How could you miss the part about “Islam obliterating Israel?” Let me make it very clear to you…Hamas exists to get rid of Israel. That’s a different thing than saying all Palestinians are bad and responsible for this. I also posted stuff from Wiki that explained part of it. Have you tried just going to Wiki because they pretty much explain all of the history of this mess. Again, no one I know who read the Hamas charter missed the part of doing away with Israel. There are other highlights of it I can post for you. Will do so. What part of it are you missing? Just curious.
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Elise…

In 1987, the Arabs living in the territories occupied by Israeli in the 6-Day war began a series of riots and violent confrontations known as the Intifadeh, a movement quite independent from PLO leadership. Soon after, Islamic militants founded the Hamas movement. The movement was formed from the Mujama movement, which had been a political party with no military ambitions that was given some encouragement by Israel earlier in the decade, as a means of countering the influence of the PLO, and perhaps because the opposition of the Hamas to an international conference that would adjudicate the problem of Palestine, coincided with the policies of the Begin and Shamir governments.

The Hamas has a ‘military’ wing or wings that engages in terrorist acts and a ‘civilian’ wing that supposedly confines itself to education and ‘good works,’ Israel successively assassinated its leaders, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Sheikh Ahmed Rantissi, forcing the leadership underground. However, in January of 2006, candidates representing the Hamas swept to victory in Palestinian elections, overcoming the traditional leadership of the Fateh and PLO.

Click here for details of Hamas history.

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”

“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”

elise

The problem, OIAF, is that any group opposing the occupation of Palestine has been considered a terrorist org.The PLO and Hamas.

I’m not defending anyone or group who advocates violence as a solution to problems anywhere. The questions I began with remain. I don’t see any evidence which leads me to believe Israel or Palestine have ever acted in good faith.

Hope for a solution is in vain. For you, the complete annihilation of Palestine may be a reasonable proposition, but in the process, they will make implacable enemies who will never rest until they see the complete annihilation of Israel.

Some Evangelicals believe Armageddon will take place in the ME resulting in the Second Coming. Some Biblical scholars believe the book of Revelation was a contemporary history and not prophecy at all.

My point is very few in this country have an unbiased and objective opinion.

Snickers

I just googled the Hamas Charter and found in its introduction their wish to obliterate Israel. The problem here is that Western culture has a different mindset than Eastern cultures. Remember Viet Nam and how children were used as human bombs. I loathe violence, and I wish this ME violence would end because not only does it kill people, it is helping to destroy our planet that much quicker. Still, Israel has a right to defend itself, and frankly Barry’s impending Investiture as Ruler of All, is probably scaring the bejesus out of Israel, just as it is scaring the bejesus out of me.
xax

It seems you’re so busy looking for “objective information” that you can’t see the truth when it’s in front of you. There is no such thing as “objective information”. The only thing people can do is gather as much info as possible, from sources who try to be unbiased, and then make a decision. For me the evidence, is against Hamas. Unequivocably.

It’s Not Me

I read the Hamas Charter and saw nothing about killing Jews.

The Hamas Charter calls for a Jihad against the “Zionists.” What is Jihad?

Jihad on the Web:
* a holy war waged by Muslims against infidels

I think you need to reread the Hamas Charter. The entire thing is about a Jihad against Jews and Israel.

Joe Biden’s scalp hurts

Has anyone yet posted quotes from the Protocols of Zion?

(any minute now…(

I’m thinking that would rationalize away Hamas plan to destroy Israel.
truthtelling007

“Honestly, I can’t believe what I read here sometimes. ”

That’s funny, it doesn’t seem like you read things here..but sort of skim to find what suits you, then add your invective and argue with yourself.

If you’d stop accusing people of supporting Hamas when they express support for Palestinian citizens, as if it is the same thing…perhaps then…you won’t be so lost in the conversation.

If you’d cut the hyperbole, you’d do much better. If that is possible.

I think you asked a terrific question earlier, about ..”ok, then what should Israel do?”
By doing this, you place the options in the hands of the people you are arguing with, instead of taking up your time with dealing with their defensive comments caused by your accusations of “hamas support” when…nobody has expressed support for Hamas on this site. nobody..period.

Now..if you go to YouTube channels on this topic, THERE you’ll see idiots posting very hateful antiSemetic, antiIsrael, proHamas crap.

It isn’t happening here, no matter how much you keep accusing people of it because they didn’t read the script you want them to read.

Mary

Of course it’s not.

The only posts on the board that descend into childish cat fights or invective or hatefulness, are those posted by ObamaIsAFraud. Everyone knows it.

Let’s just skip those posts, knowing that rational, factual conversation will never happen with her.

She’s boorish, and foolish.

Stick to the rational posters.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

ROFLMAO…What a stupid post. And I am reading here most people’s responses to YOU is that you are uneducated about what you post and know nothing. You can keep attacking me but I think we have all seen that you don’t know your ass from your elbow. Oh well.

Mary

Go away, dear.

You bore me.

I don’t DO high school cat fights.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Oh Wildchild…we’re not going to get into it on this one. It’s toooo easy. Hope you’re well and Happy New Year!

WildChild

Hmmm, you’re right, fleeing was tooo easy for you

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

No, I’m here. You can say whatever you want. I’ve made it clear that I stand by Israel and I think it’s silly to support terrorism, Hamas and all that nonsense. I also think Israel has a right to live their lives without the constant attacks and bomb shelters in their homes. I agree with Zeke that they see Fraudbama, the Arab himself and Israel hater, sitting on his azz and not doing anything about it. Scary times. But, I happen to love Israel, my Jewish friends, etc. and I will NEVER support forcing them to sit there getting attacked every day because of some wing nut notion that they should “take it.” Oh well. My prayers are for them to rid the entire world of Hamas, whatever it takes.

WildChild

If Israel wants to get rid of it’s bomb shelter it is within it’s power. They can unilaterally implement a two state solution consistent with UN resolutions. Or they feel like talking they can into negotiations with the Palestinians to welcome them home.

or they can just love the bomb shelter. It’s their choice.

WildChild

enter into negotiations

Strawberrybitch

One day Wild Child, you, me, hubby and a few pints…hopefully Larry and Susan can join us. Sometimes, blind stinking drunk is the only way to get through the day.

WildChild

sounds great strawberry, as long as
I get to be the designated driver.

Strawberrybitch

Bwahahahaha! It’s a date.

WildChild

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Wow…I didn’t get invited out for the drink. Wahahahahhahahahha….
WildChild

you could always wring out the tissue into a glass
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

See, wingnuts aren’t even gentlemen…you made a girl cry and you didn’t even feel guilty about it.
WildChild

and here I was offering you liquid refreshment
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

You offered me my own tears. WTF? How about some champagne to ring in the New Year? I’ll let you buy me a drink to make up for your assaults on my kind nature.
WildChild

In case you didn’t know, the new year was six days ago.
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

The New Year is the New Year as long as I say it is. I’m blonde, big headed, and what else? A fringer? LOL.
WildChild

yup, that about sums it up
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

You wish wing nut.
WildChild

so then you’re not blonde. LOL it sure must be confusing being you.
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

No, I’m not blonde. I’m actually a black male. Undercover Black Man. I’ve been fooling your wing nut butt all along LOL.
WildChild

as I was saying…… ha ha ha ha ha ha
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Well, not that I don’t love playing with wing nuts…but I do have to split for a bit. Keep up the wing nut faith oh wild one…and thanks to agreeing to buy me some booze in honor of 2009 being the end of the wing nut reign of terror on America LOL.
WildChild

If you weren’t playing with yourself all the time you might have noticed that 2009 was only the end of right wing nut terror on America. We still have one wing left to go. Then it ends.

http://deleted Buzz Latte

As the booze goes in the truth comes out.

That’s it! We’ll get Obama and everybody drunk and then there will be world peace!!!

Or at least, maybe we’ll get a confession out of Obama as to his real citizenship, his health, his draft registration, his university course work and grades, and where he got all the money to run for president!

Strawberrybitch

In Vino Veritas…or is it In Veritas Vino?…damned Merlot.

http://deleted Buzz Latte

The first version.

Isn’t that what Doc Holliday says in Tombstone?

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Fraudbama can bring the crack and the pitbull. We’ll make a party of it. I bet he spills the dirt but good when he’s on that pipe

http://deleted Buzz Latte

Let’s make sure the hidden camera is on and working…

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

LOL…Doesn’t ANYONE find it odd that we’ve NEVER heard from any of his roommates, friends, etc. from the “lost years?” Man are they paying people off all over.
http://deleted Buzz Latte

Yup.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Again…I can’t BELIEVE Israel is getting blames for this nonsense…Ughhh….

From Wiki…

After years of Qassam rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli civilian areas, in December 2008, the Israeli Defense Forces responded with Operation Cast Lead, aimed at Hamas militants, strongholds, rocket launch sites and ammunition depots throughout Gaza, killing several hundred Palestinians, the vast majority of whom Hamas militants, as well as injuring “650 people … according to the Palestinian medical sources.”[123]. However it is fiercely argued that the recent raid by Israel on November 4th 2008, killing 6 Hamas militants, was one of the main reasons for the termination of the 4-month ceasefire and the spike in rocket attacks.[124] While Israel threatened for months that it would not tolerate the continued violence directed at its citizens,[125] Hamas did not cease to barrage Israeli towns, nor did it “take any extraordinary precautions, such as evacuating its security headquarters and equipping hospitals and the civil defense forces.”[126] Various world leaders, including some of Arab nations, blamed Hamas for this round of violence.[127][128] Israel has been criticized for the severity of its attacks, while the IDF reports that collateral damage is unavoidable as Hamas militants use densely populated areas, hospitals and mosques as ammunition depots and launching pads.[129][130][131]

Although Israel has been considering a truce and peace negotiation, both the United States and Israel consider Hamas an Islamic terrorist organization
and the two sides have difficulties negotiating and communicating. According to an Israeli source, Operation Cast Lead was intended to stop Hamas from firing rockets into Israeli civilian areas and to weaken its control so that the more moderate Palestinian movement Fatah can “reassert control in Gaza, clearing the way in the future for a return to serious peace negotiations.”[133]

WildChild

you wouldn’t by chance be blonde… would you?

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Well…if you’re asking “do the carpets match the drapes?” Oh God…now what Wildchild…You can keep insulting me but you might have figured by now I find it rather laughable and, truthfully, flattering that you give me so much attention LOL.

WildChild

what makes you think I’m insulting you? I was trying to be nice and give you an out.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

LMFAO…You’re sooo considerate. Thank you! Yup blonde here. And your point doll?
WildChild

right fringers love them blondes. Even when they fall out of a bottle.
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Well, between us GALS Wildchild…I’m a real blonde. Not saying I don’t get help, but it’s real. Are you saying blonde as in our pal Ann Coulter blonde? HAHAHAHHAHA…It’s really confusing I guess for people like you who pigeon hole people…blondes are dumb. What are blacks? Gays? Gee are you “progressive” in your views!
WildChild

I never said blonde’s were dumb. But you conservatives sure are (LOL)
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Where do you get the idea that I am such a “conservative?” I didn’t vote for Bush either time, I am liberal on social issues, etc. I just think you wing nuts are destroying the country with your Nancy Pelosi Congress and now that complete utter freak Fraudbama. Having a brain doesn’t make you conservative. Wait, maybe it does.
WildChild

I don’t think anyone will ever accuse you of having a brain Sweets. But for conservative incompetence there would be no Nancy Pelosi congress or BOBO to worry about.
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Oh Wildchild…We’ve been through this and my really high IQ, the fact that I went to college at 15, etc. My brain is way bigger than yours, but that’s because liberal brains are like dicks on steroids – they shrivel and shrink. And before you say I’m lying remember I know people here personally – one of them since I was 19. Why the hell I even care what your wingnut azz thinks LOL…But you are kind of fun to play with. For a wing nut, that is.
WildChild

If you actually were smart you would know that brain size and intelligence have no direct correlation. But your stament sure does explain that big assed head of yours Bwah Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha HA Ha Ha!
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Wildchild…I give you credit when you’re funny. That one missed the mark a tad. Try again goofball. By the way, what size SHOE do YOU wear? That might explain some of this.
WildChild

I was talking about the big head you dummy
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

I wasn’t you dummy Shoe size? 7? 8?
WildChild

and what makes you think you wasn’t you dummy LOL?
http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Grrrr…Great way to avoid the question. It really might explain things around here LOL. That one was slightly funny though.
Snickers

Wildchild although I usually agree with your posts, and have always enjoyed reading them, I’m finding your continued blonde comments offensive. Would you mind putting a sock in it, please and allow some civil discourse? While Elise and OIAF have differing opinions, both seem to remain civil to each other.

elise

Thank you , Wild Child. Hope Hillary can do some real negotiating in the region. Bill got closer than anyone else. Not one person has mentioned the assassination of Yatzhak Rabin in 1995 by an Israeli radical shortly after winning the Nobel Peace Prize. It would seem not everyone in Israel wants peace.

WildChild

I wish Hillary the best of luck, but the power to end this is in the hands of Israel. The Palestinians are part of the state of Israel and have been for thirty years. It’s up to Israel to decide if Palestine will get its own state. No negotiations are needed. Israel just has to leave the occupied territories and it can do that without any body’s help, permission or consent. But first Israel has to make the choice to give up the west bank and gaza. If Israel doesn’t want to do that then it either has to force all the Palestinians out or it has welcome them back in as full fledged citizens.

NoBamaNoWay

dream on, wildchild; if israel disappeared from the face of the earth tomorrow, “Palestine” would continue to be the hell-hole that it is today. and OIAF is right, Hamas, and its many supporters want nothing less than the total destruction of israel. you are truly deluding yourself if you think they just want to live together in peace.

http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

Elise,

WTF did you think you read as far as the “Hamas charter?” Here’s just the OPENING…LMFAO…Can you READ?

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)
18 August 1988

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

“Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed.” (Al-Imran – verses 109-111).

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

“The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others.” (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).

elise

The first part is an old prayer and I guess you see something there I cannot see. It was written in the 7th century and is a history of the family which includes Mary, Joseph and Jesus.

“The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others.” (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).

How do you interpret this? I don’t know. I’m not Muslim. I am not Jew or Christian either, but I have read the Bible. Are the stories the same in the Torah? Joshua was sent by God to the city of Jericho to destroy the entire population as part of the Jewish conquest of Canaan.

I’m trying very hard to keep my responses factual and non-agressive, but then my IQ is much smaller than yours so please bear with me.

Mary

My snark meter just off the scale!

Well done, Elise.

Mort

I told him that in my view America’s increasingly consequential failures to generate stability in the Middle East is like an eroding levee in New Orleans — and those levees at some point are going to fail leaving Israel quite vulnerable unless Israel and other stakeholding neighbors achieve a different equilibrium in the region. . .and soon. There is great doubt around the world in the ability of America to pursue and achieve its objectives — and this doubt has consequences for Israel’s national security calculus, whether it is acknowledging it or not.

But the fact people like Steve, a person of influence, and Larry, another person of influence, recognize a greater dynamic at play, (bringing fresh perspective and even solutions to this problem, IMO),
is indicative of some progress, the abilty to say “enough,” even within the blogoshpere, cuts through the crippling fog of PR and propaganda which has stifled an effective American response.

And that’s a positive development.
http://sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

Obama’s got this all covered for us. He’s gonna have Hillary solve it.

Strawberrybitch

Pretty much.

candymarl

William Donlon as my replies to you keep disappearing I’ll make this short and sweet.

Nowhere in my comment did I mention the UN.

I was speaking from a human point of view.

At no place in my comment did I mention the UN, HAMAS or any other organization. I was speaking of the human costs of this conflict on children.

Children who had nothing to do with it. Adults started this conflict.

But you’d rather argue policy than humanity.

I’m retired military. Bombs from planes do not discriminate. That’s a fact. Mortar fire does not discriminate either. Also a fact.

One side has a a standing army, air force, etc. One does not. Facts.

You missed the entire point of my post. To call both sides to account and stop the killing. Smedley Butler was right War is a Racket.
candymarl

Testing
candymarl

Mr Donlon your post is about policy. Mine was about humanity and wrong doing on both sides. The UN does not dictate my humanity. If you read English I said to stop the killing on both sides.
I’ve talked repeatedly about the folks caught in the middle.
I’m not taking sides here. Both sides have done wrong and it needs to stop. I’m agreeing with the poster that intervention is needed. I looking at it from a human point of view. That’s all.
candymarl

Donlon. Try again and read my post The UN and HAMAS were not mentioned.
candymarl

I mentioned the human cost and that intervention is needed to stop this. You talk policy. I talk humanity.

Mary

The rest of the world agrees with you, now, Candymarl.

The American and Israeli neocons have been completely discredited, and the Security Council–including nations like Austria, Costa Rica, and China—-are no longer being bullied by the United States, but standing for common decency.

Israel was FORCED to open the humanitarian relief corridor for 3 hours a day (announced this morning) because of the Security Meeting/speeches condemning them last night.

Condi reminded me of Colin Powell’s presentation: knowing that finally, everyone except Israel was against her, and she was defending an immoral policy.

Good riddance, Condi. You can go now.

http://watchpaul.blogspot.com Rose

It’s really simple. If Hamas, the PLO, etc. don’t want dead kids then they can stop bombing Israel,/i>

Amen. It really is that simple – if they lay down their arms and stop the violence they will have a lasting peace, they will have prosperity and more respect and freedom from Israel than they ever have given themselves. My inexpert opinion.

Strawberrybitch

Well, that and be second class citizens in their own homeland with no access to medicine, food, clean water, freedom to move about, electricity, and hope…but you don’t want those things for your children either, right?

NoBamaNoWay

why wouldn’t they have access to those things?

Strawberrybitch

My God…you’re kidding me right? You don’t know and yet you feel you think you know what’s going on in Gaza? It’s the reason Hamas started lobbing POS rockets into Israel again. Gaza has been effectively cut off. Nothing in or out without Israel’s permission. Why do you think Larry and others have been comparing Gaza to the Warsaw Ghettos? Ugh. Like I said the disparity between the way the average Palistinian lives and the average Israeli is shocking. It reminded me of the drive from La Jolla right into a Middle eastern Tijiuana without electricity, food or medicine.

Mary

Amazing, isn’t it, Strawberry?

So much I’m-sure-I’m-right babbling from the very people who don’t even KNOW that Israel has blockaded food, water, fuel, and medical supplies from Gaza for close the 3 years. And that the United States, with the direction of Bush/Cheney/Rice, supported that starvation-inducing blockade.

Stunning, how much they don’t want to know.

Strawberrybitch

And they call US uneducated and ignorant. And racist. Can’t forget that…

candymarl

I’ve seen documentaries by foreign journalists (English, Australian, French etc) that have shown the Israelis bombing Palestinian areas absent any attack. I guess those countries made those things up too.

Look there’s blame to go around. The question now is how to stop it? There are those on both sides that don’t want an end.

NoBamaNoWay

Do you think that the jews seriously believe that they can exterminate all arabs militarily, and thus end the hostilities towards them?

they are a tiny minority in an arab sea that hates them; why would they engage in any unnecessary military action/provocation? it doesn’t make sense.

on the other hand, it makes much more sense that the arabs truly believe that they can eliminate israel through the use of constant violent attacks against them.
CentralMass

Test

CentralMass

To add to the discussion: Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism since September 2000:

CentralMass

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

justsomeone

There are 22 Arab countries & 44 Islamic countries. There is only 1 Jewish country & it’s very small. There are 325 million Arabs in the world & only 13 million Jews. The number of Muslims in the world is a bit fuzzy, however most sources seem to settle around 2 Billion.
wodiej

It’s obvious that a third party or more than one “neutral” party must intervene and come to a resolution. Can the United Nations be involved/intervene? Have any other countries spoke up about this?

When you see kids marching around in military gear, it’s obvious that violence is ingrained in the culture.

Hate breeds hate. You can’t plant tomatoes and expect potatoes to crop up. I don’t care how justified someone thinks they are in their actions, it works the same way. This is what happens when people don’t have true spiritual direction.
mountainaires

Israel kills 215 kids, 98 women in Gaza:

Medics say 660 Palestinians, including 215 children and 98 women, have been killed in the Israeli onslaught on the Gaza Strip.
http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=80879§ionid=351020202

===

U.N. official says Gaza school was clearly marked:

A U.N. official in Gaza said a school where dozens of Palestinians were killed by tank shells on Tuesday was clearly marked with a U.N. flag and its location had been reported to Israeli authorities.
http://tinyurl.com/86rhca

===

Medics ‘unable to reach Gaza wounded’:

“Wounded people have died while waiting for Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances. In some other cases, ambulances cannot reach the wounded at all because of the ongoing fighting and shelling.” At least two hospitals were out of fuel for their generators, the only source of power available.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24878578-5005961,00.html

===

UN: Humanitarian crisis worsening:

John Holmes, the UN humanitarian chief, told reporters on Monday that officials believed as many as 25 per cent of the 548 people killed in the fighting were civilians. “This is, in our view, a humanitarian crisis,” Holmes said. “It’s very hard for me to see any other way you could describe it, given the conditions in which the population are living.”
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091604547963392.html

===

At Gaza Hospital, Chaos and Desperation:

Doctors are working day and night on floors soaked with blood to help the rapidly mounting numbers of wounded. In the halls and corridors, screams and uncontrolled sobbing, along with the sounds of bombs and mortars, punctuate conversations.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/05/AR2009010503053_pf.html

===

In Pictures:

Death and suffering in Gaza Attack
http://tinyurl.com/9xm6kn

“Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.” : Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Steve1

Hamas is a terrorist group. Israel is a democracy! There is plenty of blame to go around. All it takes is for Israel to lose one war> That’s it.

I supoose the people who say Israel is to blame for this mess, truely believe that when the Israelis compromise, Hama will play nice. Yeah, right. What we do, when Hamas is in Tel Aviv? Intervene. This is is really a “no Brainer!”

We need to support a fair and balanced peace process which will not undermine the Israeli state. Which happens to be the only true democracy in the area. Than we can let the Palestinian people elect their Hamas types who will oppress them. There are true democracies in the Muslim countries. Not because of Israel or western culture.

Steve1

will…
candymarl

We can “let” the Palestinians elect who they want? (paraphrasing here)

Heck, if them there Palestinians behave themselves we might even let ‘em get married.

The Israelis already lost. Remember the Lebanon war that lasted for about 20 years and Israel finally had to withdraw?

Remember the recent Israeli incursion into Lebanon and they had to withdraw?

But Israel still exists. Huh.
Mary

But Steve……Lebanon was a democracy, too, and Israel still obliterated the country, using cluster bombs on civilians.

So what’s your point?

Joe Biden’s scalp hurts

Lebanon is still a democracy. If the Lebanese have experienced a loss of autonomy or erosion of native culture, it might have something to do with The Syrian occupation.

Syrian occupation employed a wide range of policy means to transform Lebanon into a “client state” and a Syrian political satellite. By means of military control and political penetration, media repression and alien colonization, Lebanon has lost its independence. Under foreign rule within the matrix of a foreign-manipulated police state, the Lebanese suffer from Arabization and Syrianization that deny the people, especially the Maronite Christians, their freedom and dignity. Many have been forced into exile across the countries and continents of the Lebanese diaspora.

My ex’s family was part of the Lebanese diaspora.
His dad foresaw the imminent civil war and got his family out just in time. That was the early 1970s. Ex’s Dad had good timing, look what his family missed:

Central to the atmosphere of fear that enveloped Lebanon was the practice of kidnapping and arrest of Lebanese citizens, the use of torture against them, and often their virtual disappearance that included, unknown to their families, removal to the Mezza and Palmyra prisons in Syria.

And you’re just plain wrong about Israel “obliterating” the country. My former cousins-in-law repatriated to Lebanon a few years ago because they had just had children and wanted to raise the kids in their homeland. They came back to the US because their business in Lebanon failed. But they go back every summer for vacation and to visit their family.

Israel bombed southern Lebanon a few years back, since Hezbollah has gained quite a foothold in that country, and were using Lebanese territory from which to attack Israel. Sound familiar?

Mary: you have revealed your anti-Semitic agenda by placing Lebanon’s woes squarely at the feet of Israel. Evidently you have no knowledge of the Muslim-Maronite Christian conflict that led to Syria’s intervention in Lebanon’s affairs, years before Israel ever became involved.

On 11 March 1978, 11 Fatah members led by the 18-year old female Dalal Mughrabi travelled from Lebanon and killed an American tourist on the beach. They then hijacked a bus on the coastal road near Haifa, and en route to Tel Aviv commandeered a second bus. After a lengthy chase and shootout, 37 Israelis were killed and 76 wounded [1]. This, the Coastal Road Massacre, was the proximate cause of the Israeli invasion three days later.

mountainaires

The Real Estate War in Gaza

The History and “Morals” of Ethnic Cleansing

By Victoria Buch

I arrived in Israel 40 years ago. It took me many years to understand that the very existence of my country, as it is today, is based on an ongoing ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21660.htm

“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing” Albert Einstein
mountainaires

Israeli Historian Avi Shlaim Speaks Out! Calls Israel a “Rogue State.” Read Shlaim’s book: The Iron Wall.

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state’s legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
mountainaires

Avi Shlaim is Israel’s preeminent historian and a few years ago published a tour de force history of Israel titled, The Iron Wall. He accessed intelligence documents to write it–documents that had remained classified for 30 years–which had just been declassified. For anyone who is interested in Israeli history, this book is the book to read. Shlaim writes that he now believes Israel is a “rogue state.”

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state’s legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine
candymarl

Apologies for the redundant posts. Initially, they didn’t show.

Sorry.