Friendly Fire Chutzpah? (Updated)

ugh, how awful. what will it take to resolve this crisis? what will it take to get these attacks to stop, to end the desire to wipe out Israel, and to end the attacks on innocents?

Hmmmm….when Hamas suicide bombs Israel aren’t they targeting civilians?

This is tragic indeed. It seems to me there needs to be a neutral third party to intervene and try to help come to a resolution.

Larry might want to wait until all the facts are in.

Israeli official: militants fired from UN school
Jan 6 12:55 PM US/Eastern
By IAN DEITCH
Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM (AP) – An Israeli official says Palestinian militants fired on Israeli soldiers from the courtyard of a U.N. school where dozens of people died in fiery explosions.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he said the army is still drafting the country’s official response to the incident.

Palestinian medics said 34 people were killed in an Israeli strike outside a U.N. school in the northern Gaza town of Jebaliya. The United Nations confirmed 30 were killed and 55 injured.

The Israeli official said “hostile fire” was directed at the soldiers from within the school. He said soldiers returned fire and multiple explosions went off, presumably emanating from munitions stored there.

Yes. That is wrong. Bad, bad thing. I’m against. So what is your point?

I doubt Israel is “attacking innocents” on purpose. Accidents, bad intelligence and other mistakes happen in wars of any size or declaration. To expect somehow in modern times that no mistakes will happen shows that someone, I wonder who, is being unrealistic and looking through rose-colored glasses.
There has always been the problem of targets turning out to be bad and friendly fire occured in every war or conflict in my memory. As long as humans are involved mistakes can happen, as we humans are not perfect. Holding anyone to a standards of “no mistakes at all” is ridiculous and unrealistic.
The trend lately is to expect Israel to just take it when Hamas lobs missiles for weeks. They are being blamed now for not just letting Hamas endlessly shoot at them……if it were your home and you were being attacked everyday, day in and day out, would you just go about your day? Would you just take it for weeks at a time and do nothing……..or would you start defending your home and family and try to put a stop to it? I would defend my home and put a stop to it.
Israel is at least trying to be careful in what they shoot at, Hamas took out a school and lucky for the children they weren’t there, but that could have been a tragedy….and I hear no talk of how random lobbing of missiles make Hamas much more dangerous and threatening to civilians than Israel would ever be about targets. I’m just surprised how long Israel waited before striking BACK at Hamas.

Mr. Johnson, cool your jets, your hysteria, vitriolic noises mean very little. It s easy to pontificate from comfortable retirement in San Diego about the affairs of state some 10,000 miles away. I bet you have never been in Gaza nor in Sderot. Why don’t you take the time to look for yourself at the situation and than make all the appropriate noises. being shrill, hysteric and utterly moronic, is no way to behave for an Ex U.S official, even in retirement, because all you do is confuse those interested to expand their knowledge.

(The writer of this note visited Gaza in 1956 and since than has been there more than 100 times, not in uniform.

secondary explosions can also be caused by stored fuel, which is not surprising given the problems with public utilities in Gaza. But you’re missing the point. No matter how justified Israel thinks it is, continued civilian casualties will ultimately create such a political backlash that most of the world will bring great pressure on Israel. It is deja vu all over again.

the way i read it is that israel knows they have only so much time before the media gets into gaza with photograpehers, so they are going about doing what they think they need to do right now. the clock is ticking. i believe(i may well be wrong here) that all of this on both sides was planned long ago.

it just seems to be that i have seen this movie before but it keeps playing at the saturday night cinema.

The point seems obvious….Hamas deliberately targets civilians, Israel only injures civilians by accident.
Larry stop being obtuse….you come off as shallow-thinking, and we all know you are anything but a shallow-thinker.

I guess I am asking everyone here, who thinks Israel should stop the aggression, what they should do. I’m not some right wing warmonger, but I think everyone should live freely like WE do, without bomb shelters being required in their homes. I don’t think Israel is going to have that luxury just doing nothing and, sorry, I have made it clear that I think the world would be better off without Hamas. NOT saying I have the answer to this. NOT being CONTENTIOUS with you about it. Just ASKING what you do when an entire culture has dedicated itself to wiping you off the planet and when you retaliate people get pissed.

So it is alright with you when Hamas takes out a school? Which happened yesterday……that seems much more wrong than what you are upset at Israel for doing.
Perspective………

Ginger, thanks for making that point. I’m trying to ask these questions without getting attacked myself but you made the point better than I did.

Well, what do Israelis who live there report? Hmm?

http://www.btselem.org/English/

Look, either pull your head out of your fat ass or I will ban you. This kind of juvenile bullshit comment suggests you nothing more than a closed minded bigot. At no time whatsoever have I argued or implied it is okay to bomb any school. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

UPDATED NOTE: Some of you need to grow up. I don’t check the names of posters and decide if someone is male or female. So don’t assume I’m launching a “sexist” attack. Many of you post under names that make it impossible to know if you are male or female. Moreover, I don’t have your pictures so I don’t know anything about your physical characteristics. That applies to the person writing under the name of Ginger. While I will encourage different points of view, I will be goddamned if I will permit anyone to accuse me of thinking it is okay to bomb a school. So if I hurt Ginger’s feelings, TOO DAMN BAD. I will not put up with this kind of stupid comment. It is my blog and if you don’t like it then go elsewhere. As I have told Susan, if I am the only one reading this blog then so be it. I write to express my views. And I will not take insults like Ginger’s lying down.

Wow….we just had a thread about how we all need to agree to disgree and then some nastiness on this thread. I wonder…are we supposed to just keep our mouth shut when it pertains to Obama and his trolls calling us women whiny bitches-but we are allowed to speak up as long as no one gets offended?

If you are talking to me, I will ban myself…..I did not swear at you or call you fat or ever imply your head was any place but squarely on your shoulders……and I would certainly never call YOU a bigot. But we know it is perfectly alright to attack a woman with such words…….
That outburst was out of line if it is directed at me. It also has made me rethink my “place” on this website. Perhaps I’m not childish enough to be here…..but I expected more from “the top guy” than fat ass and threats of banning simply for disagreeing on a blog where disagreement is encouraged…….
I will be awaiting a reply, while rethinking my vote for this as Political Blog of the Year and my total unwavering support of it for over a year now.

Ginger: The point has been made here repeatedly by Larry and numerous other analysts and commenters, that this military operation could cause blowback to Israel, thus it would behoove Israeli policy makers to consider the costs of it, particularly in light of the urban environment, and the high geo-political global stakes.

This Israeli military operation isn’t your little ideological toy to wage fake war with on blogs.

It is a very real war, and very real people will suffer the consequences, and it won’t just be Palestinian civilians; it will be Jews, who may or may not support this military operation, because many jews do not support it.

So, if you’re going to comment, at least contribute something worthy to the discussion, please.

Anti-semitism is rising in Europe, as a result of Israeli operations in Gaza:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D95HN1H02&show_article=1

This is going to reach critical mass probably by the end of the week. Israel’s ability to keep a news blackout on the horror inside Gaza is likely to slip. As more reports and pictures of the human carnage inside Gaza emerge the pressure on Israel will escalate. And the supporters of Israel just don’t get it.

I watch GMA in the morning, my only exposure to the MSM, (on TV, anyway).

And I’ve noticed, well, they’ve been telling the truth, about this incident, reporting on the Israeli actions, and the resultant, disproportionate Palestinian deaths.

And I would say they have been reporting in a fairly objective manner.

This is different, in the past ALL the news had been decidedly biased, at the expense of truth, so this might signal a change.

You cannot destroy a group like Hamas, which is embedded in the population of Palestinian civilians, without destroying the civilians as well. I have a simple question–are groups like Shalom International calling for a Final Solution?

Sad, and revolting.

But one has to wonder about the approach men like Sharon take to “terrorism.”

Was he going to kill every Arab he perceived as hostile to Israel?

What about Iran?

(Not that this was a stated objective, but it certainly seems from the mindless direction of the violence, and all this “kill them, before they kill us,” rhetoric, things are headed this way.)

The very definition of insanity, genocide as a solution.

Relkatively recently, Hamas took advantage of Palestinians who were feeling robbed by Jewish people from as far back as 1948. This is a multi-layered, multi-generational issue that a terrorist group is using to their advantage.

Hamas needs to be taken out, but the way Israel is going about it is reckless. You are NEVER going to convince me that 10 people dead in Israel versus over 500 Palestinians is equitable on any level; especially when those 500 dead Palestinians include very few members of Hamas.

I know Hamas has and is continuing to launch rockets into Israel and they need to retaliate. I do understand that. But the way Israel is going about this is reckless and bound to fail. Israel needs to offer the Palestinians NOT connected to Hamas something far more desirable than what Hamas is offering them.

An interesting point: I read yesterday that Israel is refusing to take ANY responsibility for the deplorable living conditions in the Gaza Strip because they do not want to be viewed the way the Germans were for the horrible conditions they created for the Jewish people during WWII. I get that. I really do. But until *ancient* emotions are removed from this conflict, there will be no resolution.

Meant *Relatively* recently…

For one thing, as Larry and others have pointed out they should have targeted the spots where a missile came from. One analyst I heard said they should give a warning so people could evacuate but I am not sure that is workable. But for sure they can pinpoint the source as soon as it is fired, limiting casualties.

The big risk is that Hamas is strengthened, which is apparently what is happening. The British were very tough on the IRA and it just made things worse. They could always get new recruits.

that does not mean she deserved to be called a fat ass

As difficult as it is, it is the very thing which keeps America a superpower, confronting the difficult, the unthinkable, that which goes against the unpopular, planted group think, the mediocre, public PR.

And after the last eight years of neocon “tactics,” the world breaths a sigh a releif, (no matter how much they might whine).

I would say the inabilty of the Israeli neocons to even QUESTION whether or not they are in denial points to a breathtaking weakness.

robert parry over at consortium as some interesting views especially with the history of this never ending conflict. in order to make good decisons it is best to know as much as possible is my view.

What does Hamas really want, and are negotiations even possible?

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e028.htm

I don’t have enough information about this situation to comment or take sides. The question however is how does a state like Israel answer to the pin pricks of pseudo non-state players like Hamas? Same with India and Pakistan. It is open season for LeT and other terrorist groups to conduct terror operations in India with impunity and with active support from Pakistan Army and ISI. When the state itself is indirectly or directly encouraging terror groups, how should India or Israel answer these groups? Today some clerical group in Pakistan is calling for Fatwa on India using nuclear bombs — crazy. These groups are runaway trains causing havoc and impeding natural progression of peace talks and conflict resolutions. The governments that support them are not interested in conflict resolution because prolonging the conflict itself is their livelihood and welfare. Why can’t Hamas recede into the background and let the parties negotiate and come to a settlement? Why can’t Pakistan Army and ISI reign in LeT, Taliban and others and try to come to the table with India for a peaceful negotiation. In case of Pakistan it is even worse. It is blackmailing India and the whole world with its nukes to get its way which is to be in constant confrontation with India to negate its progress. Shameful!

one point i don’t see mentioned here often is the demise of neocon influence in the media and washington. i have no doubt it is still strong. the question in my mind is what will take it’s place. that is important to this whole context. larry, if you feel inclined sometime please comment on this. thanks

Do you think, perhaps, the increased number of Muslims in Europe might, possibly, have anything at all to do with the rising anti-Israel sentiment?

I do know this is real, I think 37 rockets fired into Israel today, one going 23 miles in, proves the reality of it. It just seems that with Hamas moving into the general population to fire has put them at risk to be attacked, which should be put on the shoulders of Hamas, it is not Israels fault if that is where Hamas is firing from, it is Hamas putting these people at risk. Hamas should be blamed if casualties are incurred for literally trying to hide behind them.
I find it interesting that I am getting told I am being accused of toying around with this subject for not having the same point of view as the analysts…..I generally don’t fall into line simply because there is a line.
I don’t think I have called anyone names or done anything else to offend, just stated my opinions, which I thought was acceptable…..
I also find it interesting that now that Obama is about to be sworn in and holds decidedly anti-Israel opinions, it is quite expected for all of us to feel the same way. I doubt Obama and i will agree about much of anything, and i do not apologize for it. Unlike Obama, I will not change my mind and hold a different opinion tomorrow.

I think the point is obvious -

both Israel and the Palestinians have broken treaty agreements so as to provoke violence by the other side (including the continued building of settlements in disputed areas), both have committed atrocities, neither believes that the “other” has the right to exist (where is the Palistinian state promised for over fifty years?). In other words, both sides are right and both sides are wrong. The difference is that Israel is supported by US military might and the Palestnians live in squalor with little hope but with some missle launchers.

Larry, you owe Ginger an apology. Man up, and just do it. Your blog rocks, but this time, you blew it.

/02c

Hey Larry, how’s that all-republican readership workin’ out for ya?

The Land between Palestine and Israel should be policed by the UN. The UN should be in charge of what goes into Palestine and what doesn’t. Palestine is completly controlled by Israel as it is. And the people of Palestine suffer because of it. This goes for the West Bank also. Take control away from Israel. That would be a first step towards getting both sides together to work out a peace deal. If Israel believes it is losing its power over Palestine, it may be more willing to give and take. That goes for the Palestinians too. They won’t feel as if they are controlled and forced into an agreement.

It’s amazing the amount of emotion this conflict generates. Ironically, there are others are this planet suffering far worse. Haitians reduced to eating dirt. Darfur.

I feel for both sides and see the wrong doing on both sides. But the Israelis and Palestinians are not the only people on the planet who have a grievance or are under attack.

Funny thing is, I’ve seen the demonstrations where people on both sides are sick of the conflict.

I watched Israeli police beat up their own people for marching with Palestinians for peace.

There are fanatics on both sides. Perhaps if they could be moved aside healing could begin.

Looks like US Secretary of State nominee Senator Hillary Clinton will be “hitting the ground running” so to speak…good luck to her mediating a truce mutually respected/agreed upon by both sides. Meanwhile, how many more innocent civilians have to die before cooler heads prevail?!

The media blackout by Israel is suspect. Why, if they are willing, are reporters and photographers not being allowed to show us the results of these attacks, both in Israel and Gaza? They supposedly gave warnings for the population to get out but where are they to go? There are no refugee camps safely over the border for civilians. The politicians are running the show, citizens be damned. Listening to the news and reading reports, they all talk about this happening before the inauguration and before elections in Israel. How tragic for everyone.

Larry – thank you for the insights that we will not get from the main stream media.

Some how the US remains insulated from the reality of war. I do not believe George Bush planned to kill all the innocent women, men and children in Iraq, but he still did. Military people call this the fog of war and for that reason really use war as an abolute last resort.

Lets hope we do not get sucked into this one.

Larry over reacted, see the report from Reuters News: http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL05686115

Israel has claimed that they did trace the origins of mortar fire, and responded with their own barrage, and that the mortar had been fired from the property behind a UN school. The press has also reported that Israel has sacrificed the element of surprise by calling the cell phones of inhabitants of buildings that they will be targeting and warning residents to leave. Some residents have said that they called for UN teams to help evacuate, but help never came, and others have said that they evacuated to other buildings that were later hit by the IDF. Hamas has also opened their own hospital for their own wounded, and they are stealing the medical supplies sent in for the civilian population for their own use.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167266926&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

When Hamas uses the civilian population as human shields, and hides their fighters and weapons in schools and hospitals, I’m suprised that there is not more outrage.

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e028.htm

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052981.html

Hang in there, Ginger. This blog is a perfect storm of political opinion, especially on this topic, and it often gets nasty. Your opinions are needed to provide a counterbalance. As (I believe) HARP once wrote, this is a good place to voice opinions “as long as you don’t mind being told you’re bat-shit crazy from time to time.” It takes a thick skin, sometimes.

Well, let’s see, you’re wrong on that point alone, so, how’s that abilty to correctly analyze a situation, absent of emotion, working out for you?

Not too well, huh?

ROTFLMAO

If you have a problem with the US-Israeli relationship you should tune in to NPR’s Talk of the Nation. As I write this there is a good discussion about us being too easy on Israel and how we have done them no favor by this.

mountainaires:

That website is the organization of bleeding heart Israelis who believe that their country can do no right, and they should hold hands with Hamas and sing Kumbaya. That is hardly representative of the views of the majority of Israelis. They routinely swallow all Hamas propaganda unchewed, and ask for seconds.

i know i am sick and tired of it. it has hardened my feelings to a point and i won’t even go there except to say that extremeism of any kind now not only irritates me but makes me deeply angry.

I never get personal, as I feel it is off topic, but it is offensive when Our Leader does it.
My comment on a more recent subject did not show up so I am mostly making this post to test my status.
I am sorry if I upset you, Larry, as that was not my goal. I feel you went too far by calling me a fat ass and a bigot……….which reminded me of Obama tactics and offended me greatly. I will be leaving for the day now, and if this post fails to show as my other one on the other blog did, I will not be back. Should this be the case, i hope you rant on at the injustices of the world but try to keep the schoolyard names to a minimum as they do not do justice to you.

The killing must stop. Plain and simple.
Our US media has not shown us what is going on in Gaza because they are not let in.

The Arab media is covering this invasion on a 24 hour basis, bringing the tragic killing of civilians into their living rooms. The hatred is spreading by the minute.

Take a look at: http://english.aljazeera.net/

At least some stories are presented that you will not see elsewhere. Also, please reverse this situation. What if the inhabitants of Gaza had invaded Israel and we were in the 11th day of that invasion. What would our position be?

Stop the Killing.

The posts that predispose that Israel kills civilians by accident are from those who still wish to hide their heads in the sand. The naked truth is that Israel is a murderous andwonton occupier of lands which does not belong to them. The last time a Western presence was implanted in that area was during the crusades and that presence lasted less than a century. The Palestinians are fighting for their country. Wouldn’t you if you were in their shoes? Would you accept the occupation of your ancestral lands? No one person, no one entity and certainly no one country is granted a “right to exist” on the backs of the conquered.

The Paletinians have been “taking it” for 60 years.

I see this as a crime of the Israeli neocons.

Many other Israelis, and Jewish Americans, seek a FAIR resolution to this crisis through peaceful means, and they are to be respected.

And that is where groups like Hamas and countries like Iran ( even Saudi Arabia) must do their part, too, the people FUNDING and arming them in pursuit of a deliberate terrorist attack held accountable.

As is, all they have to do now is sit back, and let Israel BURY itself.

Ginger,

I find that Larry’s response is a bit strong, too. But I also believe he is a little tense from always being “read” wrong.

We lost a tremendous amount of worldwide public sympathy and support by going into Iraq after 9/ll and doing it with such a failed strategy (if there really was one).

I think Larry is arguing the same thing is happening with Israel right now. They need to rethink the way they are defending themselves, not that they should not defend themselves.

When Hamas stops lobbing bombs into Israel , Israel says they will stop the invasion. That sounds simple to me. Hamas stop shelling, Israel will stop shooting. Why aren’t all these leaders calling on Hamas to call a cease fire? This wouldn’t have happened in the first place, if Hamas had used the time, since they were given control of Gaza in 2005, to build up the living standards instead of attacking Israel. Hamas cares nothing for the civilians in Gaza.

The fact that your still accusing people of being Republicans as a slur, means you haven’t learned much about American politics over the last 18 months.
I’ve made my peace with the Republicans after seeing the Democrats go as low, or lower.

The oppressed are the oppressors. There is no excuse for Israel’s behavior. At this point, if people have no compassion for the suffering and dying Palestinians, then they are not human themselves. And may they go straight to hell…do not pass “go”.

“Palestine” is not their ancestral land. There wasn’t even a Palestine in 1948 when Israel was given their little strip of desert to call a country. The whole place was called a territory.
They could have had a country in 2001 but Arafat turned down a 90% settlement of what they asked for and that included 90% of Jerusalem and instead called for an intifada, better known as a war against Israel. Well, they seem to have gotten what he called for. It is a pity.

Islam means “submission to God”, not Israelis. Your suggestion is like telling a battered wife to stop screaming.

The Philistines have been there longer than the Hebrews. Read a Bible.

Israel put up with being shelled from Gaza for 6 months while the so called truce was going on. Were they expected to put up with it forever? Islam is by no means a “battered wife” It has spawned a vicious terrorist mentality that does not just target Israel, but also, the USA (remember 9-11 which killed 4000 of our “innocent civilians) and all the suicide bombs which have killed thousands more innocents (markets, restaurants and schools)including recently India. This is how Islam defines “submission to God”.

After Israel LEVELED Lebanon over a border skirmish involving 2 missing sentries, my lifelong support of Israel is OVER! These attacks on the people of Gaza, who are CONFINED like swine by the Israelis are a fuckin disgrace and criminal acts that cry out for justice.

No answer in sight–it makes me sad all the time. I wish for a leader or two along the lines of Ghandi and MLK who can show the power of non-violence as a strategy.

Maybe YOU should read a Bible. The Philistines were not the Palestinians unless you can take their lineage back to the Canaanites.

Should we give this country back to the Native Americans whose ancestral land this is? Get out your history books. No country on this earth has belonged to one particular group since the beginning of time.
There can be an equitable division of land in that country if groups like Hamas will allow it to happen. Even if Hamas attained it’s goal of conquering Israel and destroying it as they have done to Gaza, there would be no peace. Whatever remnant of Israelis left would continue to fight to regain their little country. The situation would be the same as it is now. Unless, of course, ALL the Israelis were destroyed which is what the Nazis, Islam and many other cultures have sought over the centuries.

For a while I thought the actions of the Israeli govt and those that supported it where blinded by prejudice and then I thought they were immoral.
Now having learned more and read more bizarre comments which have great compassion for the Israelis, but 0 for the Palestinians… I realize it isn’t just immoral….. it is ammoral.
These people actually have no clue what is right and wrong.

They were not confined and the borders were open when Gaza was turned over to their possession in 2005, UNTIL Hamas used open borders to send in their heinous suicide bombers to target civilians in Israel. By the way, Gaza shares a border with the Muslim country of Egypt. Why have they not torn down their own fence(that they constructed for the sole purpose of keeping the Palestinians out) and let the Gazans into their country. They are Arabs. Why are they not opening their doors to Hamas and supplying them. Wyy did Jordan run it’s Palestinian population out of their country into the West Bank. Because they got tired of being attacked by their terrorist groups, that’s why.

You are absolutely right. Just take a look at the profiles of criminals who commit horrendous crimes. They are products of broken homes, have been abused as a child and comes from dysfunctional homes. Since criminals have been abused and oppressed in their youth,they grow up to be abusers and oppressors as well..

The Jews were treated inhumanely by Hitler and other dictators.. Now they behave like Hitler and other dictators.. And please do not dare mention this in the wide open public discussion or you will be ridiculed and villified

Luv ya OIAF,
Don’t ever change.
It is terribly hard for some folks to grasp that Israel’s “right” to exist is measured in it’s might. Whether anyone here believes Obama’s word about Israel, the Israeli’s don’t.
Mossad’s skills at intel are historically superior to most except the old KGB while ours is now a group of sycophants anxious to not get cut when Obama decimates them even more than Clinton did.
Israel has pursued a similar agenda to ours during the election and if people don’t think they were following up our work in much greater detail then they’re just plain dense.
Mossad has to have followed up this stuff because our detective work as a group was damned solid.
This means that they know the Details of the Auchi/Alsammarre/Rezko connections and their ties to the Saudis. Why this doesn’t come up as a topic is beyond me. Israel is kicking ass right now BECAUSE they know what is coming.

For years I believed that Israeli and U.S. foreign policy in the mid-east was wrongheaded and that its unintended effect was motivating people there to continue joining groups like Hamas. I still think that’s true. Maybe if even 20 or 30 years ago, had Israel and the U.S. altered their policies in the area, things might have turned out differently, maybe.

I am convinced now however, that there is no rolling back Hamas and the other Islamic fascist groups. The original goal of “wiping Israel off the map” has expanded to wiping Western culture from the world as a whole. The Israeli-Palestinian paradigm has grown into a Western-Islamic Fascist paradigm. I’m not pretending to know how best to proceed within this grossly expanded conflict but ignoring that it has expanded and viewing it through the narrow prism of an Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a categorical error of enormous magnitude.

The consequence for failing to appreciate this expansion cannot be understated. Islamic fascist groups are not motivated by poverty but by ideaology and they are supported with unlimited funds.

Most of the world already expects Israel to just suck it up and accept the rockets from Hamas. Seems to me, Israel is telling ‘most of the world’ to go to hell and IMCPO, it’s about time. Most of the world hates Israel anyway so what the f*^& is the difference? Who cares what ‘most of the world’ thinks about Israel TODAY, TOMORROW and YEARS from now? It doesn’t matter. They don’t live in Israel. They don’t have to live under a constant terror alert and Israel MUST protect herself.

If Hamas uses schools to store their weapons, the school SHOULD BE BOMBED and if Hamas keeps kids there to shield themselves…THEY are responsible for those deaths, not Israel.

PARIS — Signs are mounting that the conflict in Gaza is starting to spill over into violence in Europe’s towns and cities, with assaults against Jews and arson attacks on Jewish congregations in France, Sweden and Britain.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,476866,00.html

Gaza Spillover Feared After European Attacks

Government officials and Jewish leaders are concerned the conflict in Gaza may spill over into violence in Europe, with attacks reported against Jews and synagogueshttp://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869921,00.html
…………..

What to do?

Had the Palestinian leaders…like Arafat, NOT EMBEZZLED millions of $$$$$$$$ from the Palestinian people, they wouldn’t be ‘living in squalor.’ Place the blame where it belongs….with the people the Palestinians ELECT to lead them. The people knew HAMAS was a terrorist organization and elected them anyway. Hamas leaders live very well too. That’s Israel’s fault??? I think NOT. They knew who they were electing and we’re suppose to believe they didn’t expect this kind of CRAP from Hamas? BULL. They knew and they wanted it…apparently…THEY elected them OVERWHELMINGLY.

Larry – I read you blog just about every day, but I do not post often. I want to thank you for what you write. It is news that I would not get otherwise. I showed my husband your blog, and now he reads you before I do, and we talk about what we read. Your blog is the most informative, forthright that we have found. We have discontinued buying the LA Times, and will not renew our subscription to Time Magazine. We like to read news without imbedded liberal propaganda, even though we are registered democrats (we voted for McCain). This conflict between Israel and Hamas is sad, desctructive, and dangerous. Terrorism is our war, not just for Israel, or the Palestinians. Their pain could soon become our pain. I hope that a ceasefire will be brokered soon.

Larry.
Thanks for your diligence on this issue. As with many Americans, I am heartsick at what is going on in the Middle East and particularly in Gaza where lives are being lost. This is my broad proposal.
1. Go back to the date that Israel was established by UN mandate. Start there and enforce that mandate lets say for 5 years. That might be enough time to allow both peoples to live side by side.
2. Insist that the permanent members join in militarily to enforce the mandate. This would signal to the world that we want to get the issue resolved.
3. Set up funds administered by the UN to rebuild the Israeli and Palestinian areas destroyed in this conflict.
4. Also set up another fund with donations solicited from anyone in the world and administered by someone of character (Vatican, Bill Gates??) to help in the area of education, health care, and governance for the Palestinians people. Also construct independent water, sewer, and electricity systems. This will put the people to work and lessen the influence on the people by the Arab countries. It will also lessen the hatred when Israel cuts off water and electricity to the area.
5. Continue to quietly work on a long-term peace initiative. This initiative will have to have at its core the original international mandate establishing Israel.

If something like this is not planned and implemented by the Obama administration, we will be drawn into broader conflicts in the Middle East.

Larry,

Seriously….world opinion – are you kidding? World opinion of Israel changed once gasoline prices soared after the takeover of Iran by Ayatollah Khomeini. Until then, Israel was admired by the people of the U.S. for their actions during the ’67 war, and again in 1973. Once the price of oil became a tool used by pan Arab countries to turn world opinion against Israel, the “world” irrevocably turned its back on Israel.

The truth is: since its founding in ’48, your previous employers in the intelligence community have only cared about Israel insofar as they can be used to further U.S. interests in the Region. Other than that, the Company considers them a pain-in-the-ass whom they can’t control

Why don’t you acknowledge for your reader’s sake, that Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish State. And why don’t you justify to your readers why you support an acknowledged terrorist organization in deference to a Democratic country? And finally, please explain to your readers why you feel that Israel should be held to a different standard than you would apply to your own country.

It is appalling that the innocent citizens in Gaza are suffering deliberately because the people whom they put in power use them as pawns to further their cause.

So, please Larry, spare me talk about “world opinion” and the humanitarian crisis ongoing in Gaza. The ‘world’ should use their resources to ensure that Hamas is no longer capable of targeting innocent civilians in the State of Israel.

The media blackout by Israel is suspect. Why, if they are willing, are reporters and photographers not being allowed to show us the results of these attacks, both in Israel and Gaza?

Because Israel KNOWS the rest of the world HATES them and the journalists from the rest of the world will spin the story in favor of Hamas and head to the nearest propaganda site loaded with dead babies. That’s why. Israel is onto the game. Hamas starts a war, they hide their weapons among the civilian population and when Israel takes out a weapons site and kills their civilian shields, they trot the dead civilian shields before the cameras and blame Israel. Hamas is EVIL. EVIL personified.

the bible is a religeous text and not an historical document sn.

Did you forget to write that every time the Palestinans build up ther infrastructure (hospitals, schools, etc. Israel bombs them into oblivion. Remember Arafat’s compound that was bullddozed over by Sharon?

I don’t like making blanket statements…yet, I will. Muslim fundalmentism is dangerous! It appears their goal is to war against Western Democracies. I do see the wrongs which the West has committed aginst Islamic countries. This is no excuse for dictatorship, oppression, anti-democractic freedoms by the Muslim world. Oppression aginst their people and women. They stir up the hate against us, Israel and what about Hindu India? How would people like rockets landing on their homes, schools and cities? I can see Mr. Barry Soetoro, begging to meet with these terrorists.

I guess this thought has been gestating long enough…

We must all have asked ourselves the big “Why?” as to Israel’s response at this time in world history.
Heretofore, Israel’s national personality has been seen, outside the radical muslim world, as reasonable, democratic and pro-west. Are we to assume that these people who understand the definition of genocide better than anyone have all of a sudden decided to put on the mantle of the beast which nearly consumed them 65 years ago?
I have known Israelis. One, I’m sure was Mossad in Mannheim during the 70′s, (Abe’ I hope you are well, you old bastard)
Sure they’re cocky when one on one, they have the chops to play that tune, but I do not believe that this campaign is motivated out of evil intent.
Israel is betting heavily on this and my guess is that their hole card is alot better than everyone thinks.
The Man from Kenya is no friend to Israel despite any moves or statements he might make to the contrary. Israel sees through that charlatan. They will also have known about Pelosi and the Dem’s efforts to steal democracy from all of us and they are stepping up while they can.
I decry the loss of innocent lives in Gaza… also in Tel Aviv bus stops, Darfur, Somalia, the Afghan and everywhere. But from all those just listed only Gaza is demanding war while they hide behind civilians, so my sympathy for the kids is tempered by my hatred of their parents for exposing them to this.
I’m sorry that innocents are dying but I can see the bigger picture and, quite frankly, I trust Israel to be responsible way more than I do Obama, Pelosi and the rest of the Politburo.
We Americans live in sound bites and sometimes forget from one moment to the next just what we believe and why.
We must never forget that we were right about Obama and that he truly is going to ream us like nobody’s business. Pelosi’s power play is just the tip of the iceberg.
We were right about Obama. That does not CHANGE and no amount of HOPE will alter that fact.
Never forget that we were right about Obama. He is a crook, a liar, and not even eligible for the job. If someone tells you to get over it, tell ‘em to fuck off.
The truth doesn’t change just because its uncomfortable and lying to yourselves about his evil nature is only delaying bad news from the doctor.
The Kenyan’s election is just the bell starting round one.
I know that right now we would all like to retire from this war as so far, we’ve lost all the fights. I am sure we must be feeling a bit like Washington’s men a few nights before the boat ride on the Delaware, cold, down in the dumps, beat to hell and tired, but lets now remember what happened after the boat ride.
I must admit that I feel a kinship with both the nation and people of Israel. It stems from a slight case of ptsd to some degree but both Israel and I share some commonality. Its a philosophy:
Never forget “Never Again!”

War against western democracies, wtf, they war amongst themselves.

The current president of Syria’s dad put down a revolt in his own country by offing tens of thousands of his own citizens.

smitty Palestine was indeed called a territory. The land was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire prior to World War I. The British took it over as a war prize. They created two territories, Palestine and TransJordan. When the British departed, they created two separte countries, Israel and Jordan.

I’m referring to the “the terrorist’s actions’”, such as the bombings in Spain, England, Setp. 11th, the bombings of our embassies, etc. should I go on. Not to mention, Munbai, India. Its a war on Western culture. Yes, indeed, there is no Muslim country which has become truely democractic. Unless you want to to refer to Iraq, which recently conducted open elections? I agree with you, the Muslim have oppressed their own people and their women. I am not advocating that democracy is the answer for the Muslim oppression, that is their decision! But I will not support Muslim terrorism against Democractic countries.

Okay Zeke, it’s halftime, and we’re behind about 32-0. You’ve just given one hell of a locker room pep-talk. Let’s go get ‘em! Just let me wheel out my oxygen bottle . . .

YOU DO NOT OWE LARRY AN APOLOGY-HE OWES YOU ONE. Calling a blogger a fat ass??

BINGO. BO will NOT be a friend to Israel and they know it.

well said…I’m not done fighting-I’m just getting warmed up….

There can not be a political solution to Hamas. Its very charter, it’s constitution so to speak, calls for the elimination of the Jewish state and all jews. Asking Hamas to change its charter to guarantee the recognize the right of the Jewish state and its inhabitants to live in peace is just as antithetical to them as asking the US to wipe the first amendment from its constitution in order to appease bin Laden.

Hamas acts no different than parents who would throw their own children into moving traffic in order to sue the driver who hit them for damages. Islamic ideology is a vile and inhuman cult, it’s all there in the koran and hadith if you care to read. It’s the reason Medina is celebrated as the second “holiest” site in islam, it celebrates the genocidal slaughter of the Jews of Yathrib who had lived there a millennium before Mohammed ordered them eradicated all because they would not recognize him as a prophet.

Go to the MSA website hosted by USC. This muslim student association, considered mainstream and the largest in the US, even states that self rule and determination, such as embodied in the US Constitution, is against the law of their allah. How is a political solution that by necessity involves reasonable men to make the laws ever possible when the other side regards such laws as against the will of their allah?

People who truly care about Israel and the Israeli people are speaking out because what Israel is doing is making herself less safe. Every time they kill civilians they empower more terrorist, people who will strike out at Israel in the future or anyone else they view as having supported Israel.

This isn’t about right or wrong or whether Israel has the right to defend herself or whether those casualties were accidental or deliberate. Ultimately all that matters is the end result. Unfortunately the end result is going to be more instability in the world and more anger towards Israel (and the US) for their perceived injustices.

There can not be a political solution to Hamas. Its very charter, it’s constitution so to speak, calls for the elimination of the Jewish state and all jews. Asking Hamas to change its charter to guarantee the recognize the right of the Jewish state and its inhabitants to live in peace is just as antithetical to them as asking the US to wipe the first amendment from its constitution in order to appease bin Laden.

Hamas acts no different than parents who would throw their own children into moving traffic in order to sue the driver who hit them for damages. Islamic ideology is a vile and inhuman cult, it’s all there in the koran and hadith if you care to read. It’s the reason Medina is celebrated as the second “holiest” site in islam, it celebrates the genocidal slaughter of the Jews of Yathrib who had lived there a millennium before Mohammed ordered them eradicated all because they would not recognize him as a prophet.

Ginger, you were inferring that Larry did not object to Hamas attacking an Israeli school. He most certainly DOES OBJECT TO HAMAS doing that. Thankfully, there were no students in that school.

But Larry also objects to Israel attacking a school — particularly a school with students inside — and a United Nations school at that!

That is essentially an attack on the United Nations, and it caused the death of 40 children.

Last week, we had a good discussion here about “proportional responses.” I put up a video of President Bartlet demanding that the SitRoom group consider the advisability of an “non-proportional attack.” President Bartlet was rightfully upset, and grieving, because the Syrian shoot-down of a U.S. plane killed his personal physician, a dear man who was also a superb doctor.

By the end of the day, his Chief of Staff had helped President Bartlet calm down and do the right thing — which was to endorse the “proportional response.”

Unfortunately, the Israelis are indulging in a non-proportional response at this time. Unfortunately. What a mild word. Especially to those children killed yesterday, as well as those wounded — and for all of their families.

President Bartlet was a proud example of how a leader should respond to attacks on U.S. assets and citizens. He invariably tried to make sure that there were as few civilian casualties as possible. Larry’s ENTIRE POINT has been to urge that Israel do the same … respond militarily (of course Israel should respond militarily!) but do so with the utmost care to minimize civilian casualties.

And why does Israel bomb them into oblivion? Just because they feel like it? Just for FUN? Out of boredom? Or could it be because they freakin’ deserve it for all their rockets and homicide bombers? Arafat’s compound was bulldozed because he was protecting the people responsible for all the violence against Israel. If they don’t want to be bombed into oblivion, they need to stop attacking Israel. It’s so simple.

oowawa,
I’m in the Northwest… we do these half-time speeches just so we can stomach watching the sports news much less world stuff!

Israel IS NOT “their” country. It is NOT their land and the Jewish people who live there are NOT leaving. Period.

Speaking as a long-suffering Seahawks fan, I understand completely.

elsie

Fair comment. I believe it, too! What goes around, comes around in some strange fashion. More than 38% of all girls have been sexually abused and incensed before they reach their teens! Guess what! Some of them grow up in inordinate numbers to become “ennablers” for their male partners in sexually abusing their kids. Why? Because that’s how THEIR mother behaved and alloowed their own abuse. The cycle continues until it’s broken.
The Israelis, with this shockingly violent reaction (much resembling Bush’s Iraq invasion) may receive sufficiently shocking feedback from the international community to wake up from their chauvinistic lethargy. Of course, Hitler abused and did unspeakable horror unto them half a century ago. But surely the time to break the cycle that goes nowhere is NOW!
Great post here…..and a truly brave young woman!

Israel had such a leader in Yizak Rabin and he was also assassinated by right wing nuts. I knew with his assassination that everything in the peace process would deteriorate.

Elsie,

How dare you equate the current situation in Gaza as, “Hitler”-like.
You trivialize the Holocaust with ignorant similes and Oprah-like psychobabble. Now, if you have proof that Israel is trying to eliminate the entire Muslim population in Gaza and the West Bank, well, present it to the World Court and I’ll join you there in solidarity against genocide of the entire Muslim population in Gaza. Oh, and if you have photos of the ovens and gas chambers, that will probably help you sell your thesis.

If you don’t like the Jews, have the guts to say so; or, if you really believe what you said, you might want to try to educate yourself before you leave yourself open to be “scorned” or “vilified”.

Israelis who support human rights for all of the people. You may call it “bleeding heart” but I call it humanity. Your derision is nothing but bigotry against Arabs.

Mr. Johnson,

Considering this situation is , from a tactical point, not a new phenomena, what does one look to in trying to seperate combatants from civilians?

Clearly we recall the Iraqis doing this as we invaded their country. Civilians were killed then…much to the extreme frustration of our armed forces.

(May a gentle breeze free me from the earthy bonds of ignorance.)

Rob G:

You may call them “bleeding hearts,” but they are nonetheless Israelis, and they are human rights activists who believe–as I do–that reporting the truth about what is going on is the best way to support a peaceful resolution, and respect the rights of humanity in the process. Why the derision? It appears that you are contemptuous of human rights for Palestinians. Is that your bigotry showing?

Do you realize that civilians in Gaza have no place to run and hide?..Their land and their homes were already confiscated and taken by the Occupiers..Israeli withdrawal from Gaza?? How many square miles are we talking about here? They withdraw from one area and build settlements in another area of Gaza.. Good public relations.. And also, Gaza is not very big compared to the land where the Israelis live…The Isralies have enough land space to build bomb shelters and none for the Palestinians.. Stop asking the Palestinian civilians to take cover when the Israeli army attack to kill Hamas. They just have a little space for their homes and to keep blaming the Palestinians to save themselves is a bit absurd. Continue blaming the Palestinians as well as Hamas.. They did not ask to be driven away from their land when the Jews came to settle Palestine in 1948. If you have orchards of olive trees handed down from generation to generation and then bulldozed by the Israeli army, what is your recourse as a Palestinian?.. Nothing.. You have to do what you have to do to survive, the occupation, the settlements, the checkpoints, embargo of food, medicine and fuel, the walls and everything else imposed by the Israeli government as Occupiers of Palestinian supposed territories.. Blame blame blame the Palestinians and ZERO blame for the Israelis..This Israeli aggression will just strengthen the resolve of people who suffered under the Israelis who keep using the argument of self preservation and self defense.. No one can and will make them disappear from this earth.. unless the nuclear bomb they built will explode in their face and will kill both the Israelis and Palestinians and will end this conflict eventually

How dare you speak of a final solution?
I am convinced however that such is the goal pursued by Hamas when they launch daily rockets on Israel’s children and civilians!
This is the most deceiving and despicable piece of opinion from someone who likely brought up Rev Wright and Rashid Khalidi first on the net.
One thing is right. Hamas has set up camp is such a way that THEY are literally holding the Palestinian children on their lap from the very mobile points where their rockets have been launched from. What are the Israeli to do? What if someone told you Larry:
“It’s your children or mine.”
What would you do?
OMG I must be dreaming!

OK….what do you suggest Israel do? No matter what they do, the rockets continue to fall. No matter what they do, the homicide bombers continue to blow themselves up along with innocent Israelis. No matter what they do, the Muslims HATE them and continue to want them DEAD. As I see it, Israel has 2 choices….take the shit the Hamas and Hezbollah are dishing out and never respond…just suck it up and let THEIR citizens die or live with a daily onslaught of rocket fire, or they can DEFEND THEMSELVES, which is what they are doing by taking out as much of Hamas as they can. Those are the choices. Hezbollah and Hamas (read the Hamas Charter) want Israel DESTROYED and ALL JEWS DEAD….that’s what they live for. What would you suggest they do? You can’t negotiate with people who do NOT want to negotiate. You can’t negotiate with people who want you DEAD.

good god. what a frightening post.

mountainaires,

The Israeli’s are used to blow back – whether or not they respond to terror against the Israeli State. As for admonishing another blogger to “contribute something worthy”, your glass house needs cleaning.

As for “some military analysts”, and Larry Johnson’s admonitions, if Israel listened to them, there would BE no Israel. Finally, “regarding the geopolitical
stakes”, you mean oil. Maybe Al Gore and Boone Pickens can get us to a point where the impetus to support terrorists will be obviated in direct proportion to our diminished dependency on oil.

To quote William Jefferson Clinton, “I feel your pain…”

Suicide bombings are depraved, as depraved as what Israel is doing right now in Gaza. So, if there is any moral equivalence, may I say that both Hamas and the Israeli government are committing atrocities and war crimes. They are equal in their depravity.

But there are 1.5 Palestinians living in Gaza who are neither part of Hamas or the Israeli government. They are suffering under horrific conditions, watching their children die from malnutrition, IDF snipers, and bombings. If it were my children, my grief and outrage at their suffering would impact my reason.

When governments bomb civilians indiscriminately, and then lie about it, the grief and outrage is exponential, so Israelis should prepare for some suffering of their own in the future.

And, Americans should as well, over this. 9/11 didn’t occur in a vaccuum, you know. Years of US policy in the Middle East led to that day. Watching innocent civilians jump from the Twin Towers to their horrific deaths remains seared on my brain.

It’s happening again to Palestinians right now. Hundreds slaughtered, thousands seriously maimed and injured. And, some here applaud it and defend it. Shame on them. There will be blood. And, it will be on their hands who defend the slaughter of innocents.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6588084&page=1

Unfortunately, you aren’t dreaming. There are many, many, many Hamas supporters here.

When you think about it, it really calls for a new way of fighting war, doesn’t it?

As Larry mentioned earlier, an intelligence model perhaps centered on a DEA like apparatus that is able to gain intelligence, preventing terrorist attacks, is the first line of defense.

In addition, strikes should be targeted, laser like, avoiding civilians at all costs, (and I would think the technology is there). Larry mentioned this, remember? (In part, the whole PR aspect is working badly against Israel, their choice to attack civilians backfiring. And I do think it is deliberate, part of perceived show of toughness on the part of, as Larry called them, the “jock sniffers.” Says it all. It doesnt work, poorly thought out “psy ops,” IMO.)

Secondly, I guess we should take a look at how, and why, the US has managed to contain attacks, to an extent, in Iraq. Has restraint in fact HELPED quell the violence?

Not eradicate, but contain.

And if the attacks can be contained, the REAL diplomats can go to work, handling their end.

It’s an integarated effort, all able to minimize civilian casualties.

I think much of terrorism is an attempt to draw an enemy into chaos, the best defense is not to bite.

Precisely what I said… no one would dare mention this or else you will be scorned or vilified.. You just did and it does not scare me because i call it as I see it..

Larry, it’s about time people started thinking in an unpartisan, unchauvinistic, and open-minded way to give this current conflict a FAIR ASSESSMENT. It’s not just Larry here, but I’ve read just about every European Daily on this recent shock-and-awe by Israel, especially, its ill-considered move (solely for purposes of domestic consumption by its politicians vying for the Presidency!) to start the ground fight. Didn’t they learn from Bush’s own Macho-Stupid expeditions that led us into this unnecessary, wrong and immoral Trillian-Dollar deficit…?

Israel must survive and must be able to protect its borders. But it cannot survive at the expense and decimation of Palestine. Two reasons for Israel to go ahead in this lunatic, totally unwarranted and out-of-proportion pseudo-retaliation:

1. Israeli elections. Started war–now, mind you, not during the last few years Hamas was throwing bombs–solely for domestic consumption to boost chances of the “Hawk” presidential candidates (not Livni);

2. Israel received the Green Light from Bush. This was BUSH’S LAST GIFT TO ISRAEL

Solution: No one will do it. But find out how tirelessly Joint Israeli-Palestine Women’s organizations have been working to find a PEACEFUL solution. It is incredible how women have been getting together (like in Ireland of the past) to find a common solution. Did and does anyone pay them the attention they deserve? No.

The Iraeli macho-men backed by their dependable Republican administration headed by a moron Dubya who said he wants to “please his Israeli friends” are too busy taking their guns and playing with real fire in the Playpen of the World. Now, it’s the Middle East. Do they care if they alienate 3/4 of the world? Nope. As long as the “hawk” gets the Presidency (and not Livni) and as long as they try to grab a bit more land from the refugees-in-their-own-home….Since Arafat’s time, we knew that no solution would be acceptable to both sides as long as Israel insisted on not playing fair and square with its antagonists.
Perhaps they should begin listening to the Voices of the Israeli-Palestinian women. They make a hell of a lot more sense than the boys with guns will ever do–in or outside their playpen. But now they’ve grown up, their playpen is our damn world! Grow up!

I don’t know if you are male or female, so don’t read more into this, but good god, how much of a drama queen are you? I ask a question about the Final Solution and you get the vapors? Last I looked not a single Israeli child has died from a Hamas attack in the last two weeks. And I pray that continues to be the case.

However, we cannot say the same about Palestinian children. If your moral universe allows you to think it alright to kill Palestianian children then you and I are on different planets.

I think terrorist violence against civilians is wrong. So, wake up from your dream and deal with reality. As long as Israel is killing children in Gaza, regardless of intent, it will make it more difficult to find a peace that will let Israel live securely.

Rah-Rah,

You seem to be a math major, so perhaps you can help me out with an equation: how many dead Israeli’s equal 500 dead Palestinians”? I missed that one in trig, so I’d welcome the help.

With regards to the fact that you “know Hamas has and is continuing to launch rockets into Israel and they need to retaliate”….well, perhaps you’d recommend a truce. Oh, gee, they used the most recent truce to re-arm with rockets of better capability. And then they broke the truce, and used them against Southern Israel. I guess Israel can withdraw, give Hamas a longer truce this time, and hope that they won’t get rockets of even more destructive capability.

Here’s a question: how many times will you let someone punch, kick, and try to gouge out rah-rah’s eyes before you call a truce?

What would you do to parents who would throw their own children into moving traffic in order to sue the driver who hit them for damages. that is how Hamas uses the Gazan children. Islamic ideology is a vile and inhuman cult of hate against all that is no islam and it’s all there in the koran and hadith if you care to read. It’s the reason Medina is celebrated as the second “holiest” site in islam, it celebrates the genocidal slaughter of the Jews of Yathrib who had lived there a millennium before Mohammed ordered them eradicated all because they would not recognize him as a prophet. Fighting the terrorist does not breed more terrorist, they are predisposed to terrorism from an early age, through children’s books and TV vilifying and dehumanizing the nonbeliever.

For starters, I am told that many of the rockets are launched by people who need money. The solution therefore is pretty simple, pay them off. Clearly the Israeli embargo on Gaza has not softened them up and made them more pliant. True?

Rah rah

Yup, my friend. The Truth does hurt, doesn’t it. And Peace has lost its popularity, especially since Dubbya and his Trillion-dollar wars and messes got their hands on macho-power! Give it a FAIR assessment and you’ll see the other side is your side looked at from a different perspective. And check up on Israilie and Palesstine women’s organizations that have been trying for decades to instal Peace in the region. Problem is that no one listens to them. Pity. The boys are now playing with real guns in the playpen of the world. I am not saying Hamas is right. I am saying listen to the Voices of Moderation within Israel and Palestine. You sure as hell won’t listen to such Moderate Voices as long as DUBYA THE MORON WITH GUNS is Prez. (Not that I have much more hope for His Hopeness-Elect, but no one could be as dumbassed as Bushie! The man has made the US a dirty word abroad)
So enjoy your illusions of One-Sided obamyopic perspective. It won’t help. Try looking at this from the perspective the Israeli-Palestinian women. They hold the PEACE KEY. Not the macho-expansionists running Israeli politicking. Of course, just before the election, and will Bush left with only a week, what did you expect the Israeli Hawks to do?

Now was their big chance to bomb the hell out of the already-bombed and homeless. So, don’t buy the Israeli reasons for this unwarranted brutal attack–any more than you bought the Bush-Iraq War raison-d’etre. It’s a smokescreen! And the Europeans all know it!
The key is to find a Peaceful Solution that will PRESERVE THE RIGHT OF ISRAEL TO EXIST while at the same time respect the Palestinians’ right to live in their own homes.

It’s Not Me

No. Not Hamas Supporters. Peace and Common Sense Supporters!!

Absolutely true….Only Diplomacy will help this wretched situation. Let’s hope Hillary gets to work soon on this….

Like it or not Israel has blockaded the Palestinians in and prevented them from receiving supplies since Nov. There is a direct cause and effect for why people might want you dead. Being cut off from food, water, medicine, and fuel, contributes.

I suggest Israel would have been better off taking more of a law enforcement approach, perhaps using intelligence to go after the terrorists who killed four of their citizens. Simply firing like a needle in a haystack and killing 600 civilians in the hopes of hitting someone from Hamas, shows a complete disregard for human life. It also inspires whole new groups of terrorists from all around the globe who now also want you dead.

The approach they are using will never rid them of Hamas. For every terrorist they kill, the other 500 civilians who became collateral damage in the process, become the motivation and justification used by dozens of terrorist recruiters.

Susan,

Wow – you’ve figured out how to end hostilities in the Region. Let’s run Jed Bartlett for Israeli PM! Then he can get Toby, Josh, Leo, and C.J. to just fix this damn inconvenience for Israel. Or maybe he can just get “special effects” to use CGI to simulate rockets and mortars and use squibs instead of real blood. BTW, isn’t it great to be safe in your nest, blogging away, while Israel doesn’t have that luxury?

If you take the time to visit Israeli papers today you will find *many, many, many* Israelis do not support what their military is doing: they support their intent – to bring down Hamas – but not their means. I believe THAT is what you are confusing with support of Hamas. Speaking out against the *means* of the Israelis is justified in this situation. It does not, however, translate into support of a terrorist group like Hamas.

Palestinians who are not part of Hamas? That’s just bullshit. Hamas/Palestinians are one and the same. Hamas was PUT IN POWER BY THE PALESTINIANS. They KNEW Hamas was a terrorist organization when they ELECTED THEM. They KNEW Hamas would continue their reign of terror on Israel and Jews and voted for them to do so…..OVERWHELMINGLY VOTED FOR HAMAS TO KILL JEWS AND DESTROY ISRAEL.

Who do you think Hamas MEMBERS are? Palestinians. Who allows Hamas to use their homes to set up weapons sites? Palestinians. Who allows Hamas to Hide ammo in their homes? Palestinians. Who allows their children/babies to watch terrorist anti-Jew/Israel propaganda CARTOONS every day of the freakin’ week?? Palestinians. Who encourages their children to join ‘the cause?’ Palestinians. Who allows their children to be used as human shields by Hamas? Palestinians. Geezus.

The spin here is something else. When people realize this is a GROUP OF PEOPLE, PALESTINIANS/Hamas, who HATE Israel and want every Jew DEAD and will NEVER stop the violence until that happens…..then you will see what’s REALLY going on here. The Palestinian people elected Hamas. That says it all. The Palestinian people hate Israel and Jews just as Hamas does or they wouldn’t have elected them.

you completely misinterpreted my response to hn. and btw, i did not vote for obama.

Jim

Yes. I agree. When Israel levelled, decimated, cremated you should say Lebanon, it was a turning point for many of us. Surely it was not a MEASURED RESPONSE, but a vindictive macho-chauvinistically inspired expansionist tactic. This new aggression against the helpless is no different.
Just before the Israeli elections, the macho-Hawk prez-wannabes want to make sure Livni is out of the running and started this phony War. No other reason than getting a Hawk Prez elected. And Bush the Democracy Exporter is still in power, so the Green light was there from Dubya the friend of all aggressors and despots.
This latest unjustified war will be a turning point. Israel’s survival is a “must” and the civilized world would not wish otherwise. But its hawks’ push for power this time is all too obvious–and immoral!

We should definitely put the women in charge. The men running things have created nothing but misery and carnage. Send Hillary in and give a voice to the Israeli and Palestinian women who have been working together for peace. We’ve got nothing left to lose at this point except the possibility of a third world war.

Mort

Yes! This unjustified killing spree by the Israeli army is “a crime of the Israeli Neocons”. Most Israelis are being fed the drivel that Bush fed the media to get his Iraq brutalities started. Also, they want to make sure Livni doesn’t get in as Prez. The Hawks will be in. But at what cost? Most definitely, Israel has lost out this one. They should have listened to the voices of the moderate Israeli-Palestinian Women’s organizations for Peace.
Let’s hope Hillary’s job starts not a moment too soon…lots of healing needed here…

Woman Voter-

We need to do whatever we can-no matter how ‘small’ we think our efforts are.

More light needs to be shed on what is happening in Gaza…

We need to talk about this, write about this etc…

Citizens must inform each other as to how we can get involved to assist-no matter what corner of the world we are located in.

We need to keep cool heads…

It is up to us to take responsibility-

We need to educate our family, friends, neighbors

As I have written earlier- MANY people-including people of the Jewish faith- are STRONGLY against what Israel is doing.

I daresay that even some zionists might even be questioning the legitimacy of what is being perpetrated in their name…

See what journalists are going through in trying to report the story…We need to help them…

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/actnow/393913/allow_media_into_gaza?rel=sidebox

Radicals (on both sides) can not be allowed to run wild.

A first step would be to acknowledge the fact that it is VERY IMPORTANT that world journalists be allowed into GAZA to report what is happening.

That’s a load of crap. Simply because someone does not agree with your view of the ME conflict, does not make them a Hamas supporter. It takes two sides to create a conflict.

“The US media are not showing us what is happening as they are not let in” Fine.
What was the excuse of the American media during the years when Bush was conducting his brutalities against an innocent country, butchering it beyond recognition? The media is complicit with the neocon aggression agenda of the Israeli current govenrment actions. Or risk being called “UNPATRIOTIC”. Bush is the greatest UNCRITICAL FRIEND OF ISRAEL! That’s the problem for Lebanon and palestinians…
Give Peace a chance: Kick Bush out and let Livni in Israel as Prez.

Mary,
You’re right, the Israeli women should put an end to this…uh, after they get out of their bomb shelters between incoming rockets. You appear to be in favor of safe borders for Israel, unless they’re under attack, at which time, we must let the women bring peace the State of Israel.

Now about your idolatry of Saint Arafat, and Israel’s unwillingness to negotiate…oh, what-the-hell, it’s not worth the pixels to help you get a balanced picture of the realities of the Region based on facts, history, – never mind.

Larry
You mentioned “IDF has killed as many Palestinians as Hamas.” IDF — Short form for:______________? Thanks!

Calling the cell phones of inhabitants?

You DO know there is no fuel to provide electricity to CHARGE those cell phones, and that there hasn’t been for weeks?

Can you not use your own common sense to see the propaganda you’re being fed?

I am all for a Palestinian State–I think it is long overdue and a requirement for any ttrue peace in the region. In addition, both sides have legitimate grievances, which must be heard.

That having been said, Hamas must make the first move this time. They must recognize the right of Israel to exist and they must stop terrorist activities against the Jewish State. So long as there are those bent on the destruction of Israel, terrorism will continue as will Israel’s response to such.

Translation: Killing women and children is fine with me, as long as its just Palestinian women and children, cuz they hate Israel and Jews.

Do you HEAR yourself?

wow…I’m sorry to hear you feel that calling someone a fat ass is an appropriate way to address comments you disagree with. Ginger even apologized for what she said.

Kindly address the issue of using other non-combatants as shields, which is being done currently and has been done for decades. Such is not the stuff of urban legend.

Well said.

Ginger’s comment was idiotic, compared to the fact that we KNOW the IDF bombed a school run by the UNITED NATIONS and killed children.

Israel is turning even people who might have supported them, against them, by their foolish arrogance.

And THAT was what Larry meant.

Ginger’s comment was stupid, and completely offtopic.

Kindly remember that you’re not in charge of who addresses what.

The POINT is that the propaganda Israel issues is very often the same kind of propaganda Americans were given to invade Iraq.

Such is not the stuff of urban legend.

RuKidding

Believe it or not, it’s true that dozens of Women’s Israeli organizations have linked with their Palestinian counterparts to try to bring Peace in the area. I am not an idolatrous supporter of Arafat, altho from a terrorist he turned into a “moderate” politician in his career much reviled by the wing-nutters extremists of palestine.

Remember, Ariel Sharon, Israel’s former prime minister was deemed a “terrorist” in his younger days, too. “Terrorist” and “respected politician” are relative terms and interchangeable as both History and Facts have shown us. But my own opinions on Moderate Diplomacy (the only Hope for the turbulent region) is for the two sides to come together and start a Dialogue. Surely, this is not pro-Palestinian Terrorism and not unpragmatic.
The problem always has been the in this embattled region that the extremists get a lot of attention and the media is bought by the hard-liners of both sides. The people suffer as result. But I would say that as a prerequisite, the right of Israel to survival and prosperity must be not only acknowledged by the palestinians but respected and legislated. At the same time, Israel must stop threatening the territorial integrity of the palestine lands and return lands in question. There is a film whose name I forget that showed clearly that Palestinians and Israelis have more in common than they have differences. Politics get in the way. If these prime-ministerial “hawks” for the Israeli elections did not feel threatened by their more attuned to Diplomatic measures rivals (Livni), this fighting would not even have begun. Not to mention Bush’s days are numbered and this was an opportunity for the hawks to get their way.
Anyway, we look at this from a different perspective. History still has to be written on this….
But please, not for a moment, doubt that my sympathies are not with the Israelis. It is precisely because I think as an Israeli that I cherish diplomacy and peace as the only solution to this mess….thx…

No, Ginger.

I think the rising Anti-Semitism in Europe is because they see that Israel is ALWAYS protected in the Security Council by the Bush administration, regardless of what they’ve done or who they’ve killed.

The Lebanese felt the same way after Israel used cluster bombs on their civilian population, supplied by the United States.

You’ll have to adjust your “Israel can do no wrong” attitude.

The world , including China, Malaysia, India, Austria, VietNam, and Indonesia , have all CONDEMNED what Israel is doing now.

It isn’t just “all those Muslims in Europe.”

Common decency, and not fear of the US, is returning to the United Nations.

But I am quite within my right to point out your failure to address an issue raised, as though it did not exist in the post to which you responded. The truth also consists of an acknowledgement that the other side has a great deal of issues regarding credibility. Pot, meet kettle. Until you are willing to admit that there are two sides to this issue, you will continue to be a part of the problem.

You have no verification that Hamas used that school to store weapons, except from the propaganda released by the Israeli government.

It was a United Nations school, run by volunteers from the UN.

Israel doesn’t want to be held accountable for killing children at a UN refugee center.

They’d say anything to avoid that accusation, wouldn’t they?

Yes. Not to mention the fact that by closing the borders, Israel has literally STARVED the civilian population for 3 years, with the approval of the Bush/Cheney administration.

By UN standards, that’s a serious war crime.

Well, unless you’re Israel, and “protected” by the United States.

Indeed, stodgie. People forget that simple truth way too often for my comfort.

Sorry, rukidding. You’re information is incorrect.

ISRAEL broke the Egyptian truce by not opening the borders and by killing 6 Palestinians during the “truce.”

Rocket-firing had stopped until then.

Larry,

How many Jewish children have to die before we can make this a fair fight? I can’t help but notice in your posts that you’re opposed to killing innocent children. If we can get the children out of Gaza, is it OK to let Israel defend itself? Perhaps you can lead an effort to allow innocent Palestinians leave Gaza so the boys can duke it out fair and square; you know….a fair war?

I notice in your posts that you’ve conveniently chosen to ignore Israel’s attempts for the past 30+ years to achieve peace and safety for their people. I’ve heard people like yourself utter the bromide that “regardless of intent, it will make it more difficult to find a peace that will let Israel live securely” ad infinitum, ad nauseum ‘lo these many years. Guess what – it never gets better for Israel because they don’t have honest bargaining partners. Because you are knowledgeable about the history of the region, you know that Middle Eastern countries have always used the Palestinians as a pawn for their own goals. The Egyptians and Jordanians never gave a damn about the indigenous population in trans Jordan and Gaza. They still don’t. The other countries in the region propagandize the “plight of the Palestinians” to assuage the conditions under which their own populations suffer.

If you have a solution to the current Palestinian situation which pragmatically ensures the safety of the State of Israel, please share it with us; if not, don’t use “the innocent Palestinian children” as a shield for your disdain for the State of Israel.

BTW – I’m a dude, and if you want to call me a “fat ass”, I’m OK with that – it’s just some extra Christmas weight.

Because they CAN.

George W. Bush invaded Iraq ostensibly because Saddam Hussein ignored 15 UN Resolutions.

Israel, over 20 years, has violated 64 United Nations Resolutions.

They are never held accountable, because the United States protects them in the Security Council.

While I agree with your sentiments, Larry has the right to call anyone he wants a fat ass. It is his website. Frankly, I love this site BECAUSE it is not for the squeamish or the politically correct. I get enough PC nonsense at work.

Nonsense.

Israel is afraid the truth will be told.

And how many have Israel’s enemies violated? The same number.

Hamas has already recognized the right of Israel to exist.

Israel must open the border crossings that have resulted in a Palestinian Warsaw Ghetto.

The United Nations must FIRMLY condemn Israel’s blockade of food and medical supplies for close to 3 years.

Israel must comply with the 64 United Nations resolutions they have ignored.

Hamas has already recognized the right of Israel to exist.

Balderdash. You made the statement, now provide a link.

The borders were NOT opened when Gaza was turned over in 2005.

As soon as Hamas won the democratic elections supported by George Bush, Israel—with the support of the Bush administration—closed the borders, willfully denying food, water, fuel, and medical supplies.

The theory was, if the the Palestinians were starving and dieing, they’d overthrow Hamas themselves.

Israel created a Warsaw Ghetto in Gaza, and has willfully starved civilians there for almost 3 years.

It is a war crime.

Had the neocons in both Israel and America not taken control of both governments, we might have been able to “get it done,” decently and rationally.

But with the election of Sharon , and then Bush, that was all tossed out, and aggression was considered the only answer.

Sad, really.

You DO realize that the CIA and the American government installed and supported many of those “dictators” so the Middle East would be “stable,” right?

We LIKED that they might oppress people who could cause “trouble.”

Read some history.

Well good grief, Fred.

The post was written as if Palestinians were WARNED bombs were coming, but Hamas wanted them all to die.

I questioned that assumption.

Anyone who has read the history of this region, as I have, knows BOTH sides lack credibility by now.

My post was to correct the statement that only Hamas lacked credibility.

Clear enough for you now?

OK I get it.

It’s perfectly fine to kill civilians — including children — because they are ALL Hamas

Because

Hamas = Palestinians

Palestinians = Hamas

Except that Hamas exists BECAUSE of Israel — who wanted a counter PLO — helped to establish Hamas.

Sorry — not all Palestinians are Hamas now — but if the Israels keep up this sort of pressure — your statement might become fact.

I really don’t like the fact that my tax dollars are helping to fuel this mess.

The woman in the vid clip above was very brave and probably will end up tortured and killed.

Neither side is blameless — and the Palestinians aren’t all evil monsters. Many are just plain folks who want to earn a living and to be left alone. Violence does not bring Peace — and Peace takes a lot of hard work.

Wisewoman in a post above has some suggestions how a lasting peace process could be started — but any solution will involve a lot of work — there are no quick solutions. Many Israelis live on stolen land — and this issue needs to be resolved. And NO I do not believe that god is on anyone’s side — if there is a god — then she really doesn’t have time to get involved with petty humans — she is trying to keep the whole universe in balance. Humans will have to clean up our own messes.

Really, Ferd?

You’re SURE they have violated 64 resolutions? Right.

Why has Israel never been held accountable, Ferd?

Because they’re “God’s chosen people?”

Why can’t we hold Israel just as accountable as we do their enemies?

Mary,

I have followed the unwillingness by Arab countries in the region to allow the State of Israel to simply, exist, for more than 50 years. Your heart is true, and intentions are good, albeit, misguided. No matter what attempts Israel has made to enjoy the safety into which you were born, it has always been answered with commendation and the death of innocent Israeli’s.

The current action will be added to the lengthy list of those which have preceded them as at best, a temporary respite. The last best hope for the eventual creation of a Palestinian state will be the elimination of Hamas, and in it’s place, a Fatah government which will unite Gaza and the West Bank.

I applaud your idealism and hope that you maintain your optimism as the conflict grinds on.

It was already provided in a previous thread, Ferd. Didn’t you read it?

Yep,
Palestinian women are the solution alright. They control everything in the Muslim world. They decide what to wear, who to see, what to say. Yep, they’re the ones who really run things.
Israeli women all serve in their military and your comment belies a basic ignorance and inverse sexism. To think that putting a male/female thing to this is any solution is silly.
Israeli women fight just as hard as their men.
This is about a group of hate filled bastards trying to indiscriminately murder civilians out of HATE.
They can stop being bombed, shot and otherwise messed up by simply being peaceful. The result of that act would bring them relief from all of their problems except one… Israel would have to exist. That is completely unacceptable to Palestinians who elected a terrorist government. They want all Israelis dead. Nothing else will do for them… nothing. They have called for a holy war fight to the death (Jihad) and are reaping the benefits of that attitude.
When enough Hamas fighters are dead, perhaps someone will reconsider the “kill all the Jews” part of the deal and elect to stop being killed.
In the mean time, they and the people they are responsible for as their government, are going to be killed and there is very little that they can do about it.

A man goes to the doctor, wiggles his wrist and says, “Doc, it hurts when I do this. What should I do?” The doctor says, “don’t do that.”
Palestinians say, “It hurts every time we fire a rocket into Israel. Lets get some more.”
Its called Social Darwinism.

Sorry, Steve. That post was for Pennsylvania Red, not you.

Not sure how that happened. Oh well.

Well, no.

Israeli blockades of food, water, fuel, and medical supplies represents Social Darwinism.

It even reminds me of Nazi’s treatment of Jews.

Not to mention that by UN resolutions , what Israel is doing is a war crime.

ferd, consider the source here. you can’t argue with someone who won’t listen and sings lalalalala while you talk.

mary, while contemplate Mr. Johnsons response, I have a gut feeling Hillary has been working on this for years and took the position for that reason.

I can count on one hand the pols I respect, there is only one I trust.

then my question is with all your sympathy for the people of gaza, why aren’t you all over hamas’ butt? huh?

One who reads the news at all knows that it is the Israeli Defense Force.
You pontificate like you’ve got this all figured out and don’t even know what the IDF is?
Nuthin’ like puttin’ a little pop to your message.

Stodgie!
Woot!

syliva –

“There were no such thing as Palestinians.

When was there an independent Palestinian people with a Palestinian state?

It was either southern Syria before the First World War, and then it was a Palestine including Jordan.

It was not as though there was a Palestinian people in Palestine considering itself as a Palestinian people and we came and threw them out and took their country away from them.

They did not exist.”

Golda Meir

“The Muslims can fight and lose, then come back and fight again.

But Israel can only lose once.”

Golda Meir

Its not me-

please read the following two articles.
Please do not generalize about the Palestinian peoples’ attitude towards Israel…

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/58812.html

McClatchy Washington Bureau
Posted on Wed, Dec. 31, 2008
What helped the rise of Hamas? U.S., Israel policies, turns out

Warren P. Strobel | McClatchy Newspapers

and

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

Both articles-especially (the Vanity Fair one written by David Rose ) discuss he relationship between Hamas, Fatah, the US, Israel and other middle eastern countries.

Palestine is not/was not composed of ONLY Hamas supporters…

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and President George W. Bush, whose secret Palestinian intervention backfired in a big way.

The Gaza Bombshell

Acc to Vanity Fair article: “With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams

backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.”

According to Warren Strobel- McClatchy newspapers:

“Then, in January 2006, the Palestinians, with strong backing from the Bush administration, held legislative elections. Over Israeli misgivings, Hamas — which has questioned Israel’s right to exist and which the U.S. and Israel consider terrorist group — was allowed to participate.

Hamas won a majority of seats,

benefiting from the perceived corruption and incompetence of Abbas’s Fatah faction.”

Note: I am not an expert in this area (middle east). I am trying to educate myself as much as possible by going to various public sources for facts and information…

Interesting.

So centuries-old disputes between rival Islamic factions were planted by the CIA.

Please provide a link to the history books that detail this development, Mary.

Mary from CAIRy.

“CAIRy Mary, where you goin’ to?”

remember that Monkees song?

CAIRy is clueless.

LOL funny.

She told another poster to “read some history” and CAIRy mary doesn’t even have the basic knowledge of acronyms pertinent to the subject at hand.

The Philistines were sea raiding pirates. Go find me some and I’ll give ‘em a homeland in my backyard.
Israel was an existing nation when maps were first being drawn. That they a have a claim on the land is indisputable from that standpoint and trumps any time that even Palestine existed.
Regardless, Israel exists today because humanity allowed a completely peaceful group of humans to be nearly wiped off the planet once and it was universally felt that somehow some way must be prepared so that those who were hurt the most by mankind’s allowance of inhumanity to exist would get a second chance.
The generous gift was the most desolate, rock encrusted, goat droppinged, piece of sun drenched hell they could find. And to top it off, they put it someplace where every neighbor wanted their blood.
What this is possibly bringing to a head is a reckoning between the Western World and Radical Islam.
Who is able to view this intransigent eleventh century, misogynist, hate filled madness and see them accept a peaceful solution?
I believe that their false machismo/misogyny is the core malfunction of their society. The mindset of the average angst filled muslim is rooted in big dog penis envy and is very much like a pack instinct. They constantly try to work their way up the ladder, gladly backstabbing their way up, but when a real big dog barks, they cringe back and nip the ones below.
It is not a lesson they will ever learn as it is the way they go about life, constantly seeking advantage, lying and cheating any infidel they can because they think they should.
People, if we as a nation lived next door to Gaza, we would be fighting the same damned fight only there wouldn’t be one brick standing on another when we were done.
And before one of tries to boot up your “Moral Equivalence” program, remember, Israel has not eradicated anyone. They have been attacked across their borders by forces of another government intent on the utter destruction of their nation as described by Hamas’ charter.
That, by all definitions is an act of international war and Israel is within its rights to wipe Gaza (who elected the people who fire the rockets) and every living thing in it off the map if that would ensure its safety OR followed the will of its people. That’s international law and what keeps most of the countries of the world from fighting each other.
Radical Islam is the real foe. Those who preach it and live it want Israel dead and the United States too.
That so many people can jointly hate so much that they bring their own destruction down upon themselves belies a mental illness which is terminal.
What is happening now may shortcut the arrival of this world conflict but the damned thing is coming none
the less.
The nation state system which allows us as countries to function with each other is about to take a hit. There is an intransigent group which is growing like a tumor worldwide whose sole goal is to rid the world of anything which doesn’t subscribe or “Submit” (translate to Arabic) to its tunnel vision view of the world.
Considering all this, why would anyone want to take their side?
They want us all dead and have said they will never stop until they git ‘er done.
First order of Business:
Extract Head from Sand
These are bad guys

President Bartlett had a little something going for him called a script. Made up. Drama. Not real. Has no applicability here at all. Unless we live in the land of Oz.

Gee did you really LOL? How LOLish of you.

Maybe Mary wanted to see Israeli DEFENSE Force spelled out so’s we can all see what a misnomer IDF really is.

Before the Jews came to the land of Palestine, there were people there who were non Jews and they were thrown out.. It does not matter what they are called.. The fact that the West…the Europeans and the Americans have to atone for their insensitivity to the Jews who suffered during the Holocaust, they did everything in their power to resettle the persecuted Jews in the land called Palestine.

What the US should do… and won’t do… is stop providing all financial aid to Israel. An article reports that US aid has grown over the years to over 1.6 – 3 TRILLION!!!!!

http://www.rense.com/general41/trill.htm

The Real Cost Of US Support
For Israel – $3 Trillion
By Christopher Bollyn
9-19-3

While it is commonly reported that Israel officially receives some $3 billion every year in the form of economic aid from the U.S. government, this figure is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many billions of dollars more in hidden costs and economic losses lurking beneath the surface. A recently published economic analysis has concluded that U.S. support for the state of Israel has cost American taxpayers nearly $3 trillion ($3 million millions) in 2002 dollars.

“Support for Israel comes to $1.8 trillion, including special trade advantages, preferential contracts, or aid buried in other accounts. In addition to the financial outlay, U.S. aid to Israel costs some 275,000 American jobs each year.” The trade-aid imbalance alone with Israel of between $6-10 billion costs about 125,000 American jobs every year, Stauffer says.

Support for Israel has cost America dearly – well over than $10,000 per American – however the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been extremely costly for the entire world. According to Stauffer, the total bill for supporting Israel is two to four times higher than that for the U.S. alone – costing the global community an estimated $6 to $12 trillion.

http://www.rense.com

The next idiot who says those fuckers in Gaza are helpless can kiss my ass! Enough of this shit. Wake the fuck up. All of you. These Radical Muslim sonsofbitches want you and Israel dead. Nothing else will do. They don’t care about their own families. They live on Hate. They raise their kids to believe Jews eat them. They ask God to kill all the Jews every day and you write this drivel from the safety of your computer and have the gall to tell people who are being bombarded how to run their lives and defend themselves.
You who think Israel is wrong in this are like that dickhead who went up among the Grizzlies in Alaska.
Keep your philosophy and you’ll be the next proverbial pile of Bear Shit.

Mary,
Are you really one of those Gaza trolls who used to be such a pain in the ass or are you just basically dense?
Either way, you are an Anti-Semite whose bigotry is showing through despite your phony denials.
Kudos to the surgeon who put the glass porthole where your navel used to be. Probably cuts down on running into things doesn’t it?
You don’t know shit.

What’s wrong with disliking people who want you dead?

Mary,
You are a blithering idiot. Please, if we all pool our money and send you there, would you stand in Southern Israel and wave a big Israeli flag back and forth?
You can even wear your “I heart Palestine shirt”.

Maybe she’s dumber than you are… maybe

“a script”–kinda like the stuff that Jon Favreau writes for PEBO.

“Unless we live in the land of Oz.” Can we please go back to Kansas now?

Is the conclusion here that if you feed the animals, they won’t bite you?
What if you are in the same cage?

“The key is to find a Peaceful Solution that will PRESERVE THE RIGHT OF ISRAEL TO EXIST while at the same time respect the Palestinians’ right to live in their own homes.” And build bombs and fire rockets and send mentally ill and developmentally disabled WOMEN to blow themselves up.
I tire of this “Pick and Choose” Feminism which takes wonderful stands all the time in contradiction to what they CLAIM they believe.
To my sisters here who are struggling with their position on this, I would ask you to think what happens on a daily basis in Gaza to young girls who reach puberty there. What happens to women accused of adultery in Gaza. What happens to women who, by dint of some man’s claim, dishonor their families?
If you already know the answers to those questions, why in hell are you supporting the bastards who do that shit?
Its an interesting perspective, no?

heeheehee,
he said “fatass!”

NTZ, it is often called, “banality of evil”

No she isn’t. She’s quite well informed. And I applaud her balls. And Larry’s.

There are two Mary’s zeke.

There’s Mary and there’s mary. Two different people.

Jim | 2009-01-06 15:29:47

After Israel LEVELED Lebanon over a border skirmish involving 2 missing sentries, my lifelong support of Israel is OVER! These attacks on the people of Gaza, who are CONFINED like swine by the Israelis are a fuckin disgrace and criminal acts that cry out for justice.
—————————————————

You must have been reading my mind, Jim…..

My birthday, July 30 – Q A N A – will never be
the same……

The comment by “ItsNotMe” states:
Palestinians who are not part of Hamas? That’s just bullshit. Hamas/Palestinians are one and the same. Hamas was PUT IN POWER BY THE PALESTINIANS. They KNEW

Hamas was a terrorist organization when they ELECTED THEM. They KNEW Hamas would continue their reign of terror on Israel and Jews and voted for them to do

so…..OVERWHELMINGLY VOTED FOR HAMAS TO KILL JEWS AND DESTROY ISRAEL.”

But unfortunatly, this isn’t factual at all.
By this logic…all Republicans in the United States are now…Democrats.
The Democrats now control enough seats in the House and Senate to be quite powerful and influential.
The new president and his advisors, Democrats.
28 of 50 governors, Democrats.
So by this logic, all you Republicans are Democrats.

Lets substitute the words above with US terms and see if you still want to wear it.

“Americans who are not part of Democrat Party? That’s just bullshit. Democrats/Americans are one and the same. The Democratic Party was PUT IN POWER BY THE

AMERICANS.”

Now…I’m sure Karl Rove, Mike Duncan, and many other Republicans would protest that they are not now part of the Democratic Party because the Democrats won.
Your logic…fails.

And since it is all emotion, no fact, then I’ll leave you to your emotional responses…they belong to you and I won’t take them.

Election Results Reality:
1. The population total of “Palestine” is: 3,907,913 (by Jan 2008 figures-CIA factbook)
2. Total number of registered voters reached 1,332,396. (34.09% of the pop. aka 1/3)
This means that, 2,575,487 aren’t registered to vote. 65.91%

Demographics:
0-14 years: male 813742/female 771885 = 1,585,627
15-64 years: male 1,123,122/female 1,071,471 = 2,194,593
65 years and over: males 52802/74891 = 127693
Total – 3,907,913

Out of the 1.3 million voters, only 990,873 people voted in the “national” election.
so..update the math – 2,910,000 citizens approximately…didn’t vote in the nationals.

1. Hamas won 440,409 votes winning 76 seats by having 45% of the vote.
2. Fatah won 410,554 votes winning 43 seats by having 41.43%.
THe voting is a proportional representation method.

Broken down into the two major zones
-In the West Bank
582,471 voted out of 2,407,681 total population – less than 25%

-In Gaza
429,521 voted out of 1,500,202 total population – less than 33%

440,409 people in Palestine supported Hamas in the last election
45% vs 41.43% isn’t …”overwhelmingly” by any measure I’ve ever encountered.
In the United States, if you don’t rise above 50% in some elections, you are probably going to have a run off or automatic recount. It is almost a virtual tie (see: Norm Coleman v Al Franken).

And if you add the totality of votes cast, Hamas did not win “overwhelmingly” at all.

550,464 voted for someone other than Hamas.
440,409 voted for Hamas.

A difference of 110,055 who didn’t vote for Hamas…hardly “overwhelming”

Since we have no measurement outside of the voting…surely there are non-voters who support Hamas…but just as well, they might support someone else…If you have data regarding this…send it along.

Now, if you want to keep making statements like this, you really simply should be discredited for any honesty.
All emotions aside, the facts don’t back up your comments in the least.

Quick update on who didn’t vote:
2,068,410 below 18 cannot
1,839,503 legal age who could vote if registered
1,332,396 who registered

Difference of 507,107 who were qualified to register and didn’t.

Ginger: “.I did not swear at you”

yet you said: “So it is alright with you when Hamas takes out a school? ”

just as offensive. I’d rather you call me a no good lowlife motherfucking asshole…than suggest I’m ok with anyone bombing a school. Got that?

SN, haven’t you heard? We are all Democrats now. The Democrats won by an overwhelming majority. All Americans are Democrats now because we have a Democrat president, staff, and Congress. 28 of 50 governors are Democrats.

Afterall…
if Hamas=Palestinians…
Democrats = Americans.

catch up

“Because Israel KNOWS the rest of the world HATES them and the journalists from the rest of the world will spin the story in favor of Hamas”
talk about spin…

They KNOW this?
no…they believe this maybe..and even then…no..I know Israelis who do not believe this crap.

There is a reason for independent journalism, even when there is spin, and I’ve been reading pro-Israeli spin for 2 weeks now thank you. With a free press you can do all the reading you want to get the facts. Compare articles long enough and you lose the spin.

Enough of the journalism conspiracy theory crap.

If the world hated Israel so much, why so much aid to her? Why no action on all the UN resolutions? no penalties?

It is real easy to type this stuff, but hard to make it reality.
Watch it works like this:
“ItsNotMe loves to play scrabble while wearing tinfoil hats and singing Jingle Bells on top of the Eiffel Tower”

See..I can type things all day…and yet it won’t make it true simply by stating it. That is what your comment is, pure opinion, no facts.

There’s a reason it’s called “asymmetrical warfare”. The terrs/guerrillas get to hide in the civvie population, and terrorize civilians, PLUS make noble squawks when retaliation hits their ‘shields’. But Geneva/Hague calls such tactics “perfidy”, and assigns full responsibility for all civilian deaths resulting to the shielded terrorists.

What are you doing…spinning a lie here?
You are saying Larry over reacted because the former headmaster was allegedly a rocket maker?…yet he died almost a year ago?

from your article May 2008
“By day, Awad al-Qiq was a respected science teacher and headmaster at a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip. By night, Palestinian militants say, he built rockets for Islamic Jihad.

The Israeli air strike that killed the 33-year-old last week also laid bare his apparent double life and embarrassed a U.N. agency which has long had to rebuff Israeli accusations that it has aided and abetted guerrillas fighting the Jewish state.”

You’ve erected a dead straw man argument here.

No. The potential for double play works still.

However, it is a novel idea but simple proposition..
Still pondering it. How ever Mr. Johnson is corrected that destruction is the mother of hate.

How is that working Iraq, where we are paying the Sunni tribesmen?

Paying people not to do something? Grow Opium in Afganistan?
Paying Soviet weapons scientists not to go elsewhere?

How does it go? A fool and his money are soon parted?
How do you keep from being that guy?

Thanks for the gentle breeze LJ.

glad you spiked the ball in the inzone…this might sting you a bit though…

June 21 2006 (six months after Hamas won election)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jun/21/israel1

Hamas performs about-turn on Israeli state
· Document recognises Israel’s right to exist
· Shift away from founding goal of an Islamic state
“Hamas has made a major political climbdown by agreeing to sections of a document that recognise Israel’s right to exist and a negotiated two-state solution, according to Palestinian leaders.”

Woot!

“There wasn’t even a Palestine in 1948 when Israel was given their little strip of desert to call a country. The whole place was called a territory.”

Sorry, but this is patently false. If this were the case…why would the Balfour Declaration from 1917 call it Palestine?

and I’ll give you an israeli source for the document:
“http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/The+Balfour+Declaration.htm”

The Balfour Declaration
November 2, 1917

During the First World War, British policy became gradually committed to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine (Eretz Yisrael). After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild. The letter represents the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great Power.

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour

Bold emphasis is mine…please…get your history straight, you are confusing yourself and wasting your time with this revisionism.

If it “there was no Palestine” then…why does it keep getting called that before your date?…because it was Palestine.
In fact the name Palestine is a Romanization…and the Romans haven’t been running things for at least …well a few centuries…so now what?
Going to try and scrub history free of the Palestinians? And you guys dare get pissy when someone dares to compare these types of arguments to the “final solution”?

“There wasn’t even a Palestine in 1948 when Israel was given their little strip of desert to call a country. The whole place was called a territory.”

False.

The Balfour Declaration was published in 1917 and explicitly calls it Palestine,…not “territory”

The Balfour Declaration
November 2, 1917

During the First World War, British policy became gradually committed to the idea of establishing a Jewish home in Palestine (Eretz Yisrael). After discussions in the British Cabinet, and consultation with Zionist leaders, the decision was made known in the form of a letter by Arthur James Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild. The letter represents the first political recognition of Zionist aims by a Great Power.

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty’s Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

“His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.”

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour

oh, and since you guys claim you love sources…the Balfour Declaration can be found at the Israeli Department of Foreign Affairs

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/The+Balfour+Declaration.htm

if I’m a Hamas supporter then you are a child molester.

“What would you do to parents who would throw their own children into moving traffic in order to sue the driver who hit them for damages. that is how Hamas uses the Gazan children.”

Proof.
Aside from Israeli accusations.
Give proof of this..if you can.

That’s just wrong. How am I to know who to be pissed at?

small “m” mary,
My humble apologies.
Large M Mary, you are a ditz.

elsie, I would just like to point out to my friends at nq.

You, of course, are free to use any name you choose. I just want to point out the difference and I’m sure you will understand since you would want to claim your own ideas and not have them confused with mine. Thank You. elise.

NOQUARTER PLEASE TAKE NOTE. THE ABOVE POST IS FROM ELSIE, NOT ELISE. THANK YOU!

Great!

Then she can provide me the documentation for how the CIA planted bad blood between the Alawi Muslims and the Sunni – in the 13th century.

elsie, as you’ve seen, some cannot face that hate is hate, whether it came from an Austrian hate monger who controlled Germany, a Palestinian militant who can’t tolerate Jews, or these supposed Israel supporters who really would be fine if all the Muslims in the world were dead.

They can’t handle your frustration because it isn’t in line with their pathology.

In fact, he trivializes the Holocaust by responding to it this way.
He fails to see that a very small man with big ambitions riled a nation to war against Jews by telling the Germans that the Jews were out to kill them, and therefore were justified in any response they could muster.

He doesn’t realize that a people who have been beaten down will turn to whatever tactics they must to counter their perceived or real oppressors.

He doesn’t care if Palestinians are treated inhumanely so long as Israel is right.

So instead of dealing with your points, he’ll swash red herrings on the path about with:

“if you don’t like jews, have the guts to say so”…and the like

fortunately for you, some of us are capable of keeping two seemingly different thoughts in one head.
(the thought…I love people on both sides and both sides deserve to be treated with humanity first)

But…don’t let it rattle ya, call it as you see it.

And I’ll call large M Mary a dingbat, since Larry set the tone by calling Ginger a fatass!

thanks ferd.
though we’ll probably still but heads over these issues in the future, I agree..this site gets passionate. If we’re going to take up the whole blog over the word “fatass”…exactly how much is that we care for Israeli and Palestinian citizens?

it is a non-issue and no biggie…

signed,
fat ass

(my dear loves my ass and she squeezes it often)

Why do you resort to a red herring here?

Where did she mention 13th Century? or anything of the sort?

last I read she said read some history….she didn’t say go back to the dawn of time.

Allegations of these coups include:
1. CIA helped to install Baath Party in 1963
2. CIA helped topple Mossadegh in Iran 1953 to restore a monarchy.
3. Sept 11 1973, CIA helps topple Salvador Allende
4. 1954 coup in Guatemala

now I say Allegations, because I haven’t gone through the all the documents that Michael Hayden released over a year ago, aka the dirty laundry.

But she is making the point that these little despots have backing that comes right back to D.C.

Now, if you want to counter that, fine. But jumping back to the 13th Century only makes you look like a mockery. It would serve you better if you’d just refute what she said.

That is…if you are capable of doing any research and sticking to the facts.

It seems you are more interested in your right to have your version of “fatass”…truly a sign of your integrity.

Mary replied to a post about a purge that occurred in Syria under Hafez al Assad.

And now you are bringing Guatemala into the mix – and telling me I resort to red herrings.

Additionally you are requiring history to stop – where- 1954? 1963? I still don’t see where the CIA created the age old resentments between the Alawi and the Sunni. The Islamic world’s history doesn’t stop at any arbitrary point that is convenient to bloggers.

I managed to reply to you without impugning your integrity. You tell me I “look like a mockery” when you reference allegations.

Ginger,
Yes, I think the rising Muslim population in Europe is having a huge impact there. I know this personally as I have many, many relatives living there and have had them tell me this.
I also agree with you on the Israel/Palestinian situation. Israel has a right to defend herself.
Larry is also right in pointing out the blowback results which could happen. However, I think his comments to you were also disproportionate to what you stated. I found myself very disappointed in his response. But we all have bad days and he may be overstressed. I know I am as we get closer and closer to the Ruler of All’s investiture. I think Israel is also overstressed and probably plain scared as that day approaches as The Ruler of All-Elect has written how he will stand with his Muslim brothers…

Thank you, RU Kidding. I agree.

Mary, you’re right, of course, and judging from some of the stupidity below, you struck a nerve. The truth hurts, when it momentarily breaks through their cognitive dissonance [denial]. There are more than 215 children and 100 women dead, along with hundreds and thousands others killed and maimed.

The Bloodbath In Gaza

Separating the Truth from the Hype

By Mike Whitney

It wouldn’t make a bit of difference if Hamas surrendered tomorrow and handed-over all its weapons to Israel, because the problem isn’t Hamas; it’s Zionism, the deeply-flawed ideology which leads to bombing children in their homes while clinging to victim-hood. Ideas have consequences. Gaza proves it.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21663.htm

===

U.N. official says Gaza school was clearly marked:

A U.N. official in Gaza said a school where dozens of Palestinians were killed by tank shells on Tuesday was clearly marked with a U.N. flag and its location had been reported to Israeli authorities.
http://tinyurl.com/86rhca

===

Medics ‘unable to reach Gaza wounded’:

“Wounded people have died while waiting for Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances. “In some other cases, ambulances cannot reach the wounded at all because of the ongoing fighting and shelling.” At least two hospitals were out of fuel for their generators, the only source of power available.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24878578-5005961,00.html

===

At Gaza Hospital, Chaos and Desperation:

Doctors are working day and night on floors soaked with blood to help the rapidly mounting numbers of wounded. In the halls and corridors, screams and uncontrolled sobbing, along with the sounds of bombs and mortars, punctuate conversations.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/05/AR2009010503053_pf.html

simple…look in the mirror and scream your head off at who you see.

That isn’t what was reported today. CNN says that the support level is at 80%.

Do you have evidence otherwise?

and

“I believe THAT is what you are confusing with support of Hamas.”

No…people keep stating that others support Hamas when they express concern for Palestinians because their bigoted minds cannot make a distinction. It isn’t their confusion, its their bias. There’s a difference and one is more willful and immoral than the other.
Confusion I forgive…

Elise

Just imagine if people can not distinguish the spelling of our names, such a simple task, how would you expect them to know any distinction of what are the issues in this serious conflict?

If people hate Jews, Palestinians, blacks, Indians and other subjugated people, it certainly affect opinions.. However admitting or denying you hate anyone will not help make the situation better. It is easy for people to explain other people’s point of view by accusing them of hating the group they are criticizing. I do not fall for this argument because it is called clouding your mind. As I said, I will say it as I see it.. I see human suffering, I see walled in human beings without adequate water, fuel, shelter (their dwelling bombed out), no food, no medicine and hating them makes another human being inhuman. Meanwhile those inflicting this human suffering have to be called upon to stop and calling them to stop is not equivalent to hating them.. Even if they become so arrogant and belligerent, other people still continue to find excuses for their inhuman treatment of others.. It so happen that other people like me see it as it is and will say it.. Other people choose to scream at us as haters for our opinions…I came here to state my own opinion and I expect and I assume differences in opinion. I respect differences in opinion as Larry Johnson keeps reminding people who post their comments here. You can’t change mine and I won’t change other people’s opinion either.

Elsie and not Elise

Bennie, you are a liar. Nothing could be further from the truth about Palestinian parents. Your comments are nothing but lies and bigotry. You might as well say that black parents hung their own children so they could blame it on the KKK. It’s offensive in the extreme, and it is nothing but a lie.

The truth is, that Israeli policies create more dangers for Israel; indiscriminately slaughtering civilians is a war crime. Many Israelis reject these polices, even those who have served in the IDF. Many Israelis now refuse to serve, because of it.

Avi Shlaim is Israel’s preeminent historian and a few years ago published a tour de force history of Israel titled, The Iron Wall.

Shlaim writes that he now believes Israel is a “rogue state.”

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state’s legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

The truth is, that Israeli policies create more dangers for Israel; indiscriminately slaughtering civilians is a war crime. Many Israelis reject these polices, even those who have served in the IDF. Many Israelis now refuse to serve, because of it.

Avi Shlaim is Israel’s preeminent historian and a few years ago published a tour de force history of Israel titled, The Iron Wall.

Shlaim writes that he now believes Israel is a “rogue state.”

How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state’s legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

withdrawal of retirement funds…

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