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Urgent: Letter from Intelligence, Military, Diplomatic, and Law Enforcement Professionals

PREFACE:

A group of distinguished intelligence and military officers, diplomats, and law enforcement professionals delivered an urgent message this morning to the chairman and the ranking minority member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, calling on them to hold the nomination of Judge Michael Mukasey until he takes a clear position on the legality of waterboarding.

Their message strongly endorses the view of former judge advocates general that waterboarding “is inhumane, is torture, is illegal.” The intelligence veterans added it is also a notoriously unreliable way to acquire accurate information.

They noted that the factors cited by the president and Mukasey as obstacles to his giving an opinion on waterboarding can be easily solved by briefing Mukasey on waterboarding and on C.I.A. interrogation methods.

The intelligence veterans noted that during their careers they frequently had to walk a thin line between morality and expediency, all the while doing their best to abide by the values the majority of Americans have held in common over the years. They appealed to Senators Pat Leahy and Arlen Specter to rise to the occasion and discharge their responsibility to defend those same values.

THE MEMORANDUM FOLLOWS. OF NOTE: YOU MAY REPRINT THIS MEMORANDUM AT ANY BLOG OR SITE, IN FULL, AND WITH PROPER ATTRIBUTION AND A LINK BACK TO No Quarter.

MEMORANDUM FOR: Chairman and Ranking Member Senate Committee on the Judiciary

FROM: Former U.S. Intelligence Officers

SUBJECT: Nomination of Michael Mukasey for Attorney General

Dear Senators Leahy and Specter,

Values that are extremely important to us as former intelligence officers are at stake in your committee’s confirmation deliberations on Judge Michael Mukasey. With hundreds of years of service in sensitive national security activities behind us, we are deeply concerned that your committee may move his nomination to the full Senate without insisting that Mukasey declare himself on whether he believes the practice of waterboarding is legal.

We feel this more acutely than most others, for in our careers we have frequently had to navigate the delicate balance between morality and expediency, all the while doing our best to abide by the values the vast majority of Americans hold in common. We therefore believe we have a particular moral obligation to speak out. We can say it no better than four retired judge advocates general (two admirals and two generals) who wrote you over the weekend, saying: “Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal.”

Judge Mukasey’s refusal to comment on waterboarding, on grounds that it
would be “irresponsible” to provide “an uninformed legal opinion based on
hypothetical facts and circumstances,” raises serious questions. There is
nothing hypothetical or secret about the fact that waterboarding was used by U.S. intelligence officers as an interrogation technique before the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004. But after Alberto Gonzales became attorney general in
February 2005, Justice reportedly issued a secret memo authorizing harsh
physical and psychological tactics, including waterboarding, which were
approved for use in combination. A presidential executive order of July 20,
2007 authorized “enhanced interrogation techniques” that had been banned for use by the U.S. Army. Although the White House announced that the order provides “clear rules” to govern treatment of detainees, the rules are classified, so defense attorneys, judges, juries — and even nominee Mukasey — can be prevented from viewing them.

Those are some of the “facts and circumstances.” They are not hypothetical; and there are simple ways for Judge Mukasey to become informed, which we propose below.

Last Thursday, President George W. Bush told reporters it was unfair to ask Mukasey about interrogation techniques about which he had not been briefed.

“He doesn’t know whether we use that technique [waterboarding] or not,” the president said. Judge Mukasey wrote much the same in his October 30 letter, explaining that he was unable to give an opinion on the legality of
waterboarding because he doesn’t know whether it is being used: “I have not been made aware of the details of any interrogation program to the extent that any such program may be classified and thus do not know what techniques may be involved in any such program.” Whether or not the practice is currently in use by U.S. intelligence, it should in fact be easy for him to respond. All he need do is find out what waterboarding is and then decide whether he considers it legal.

The conundrum created to justify the nominee’s silence on this key issue is a synthetic one. It is within your power to resolve it readily. If Mukasey
continues to drag his feet, you need only to facilitate a classified briefing for him on waterboarding and the C.I.A. interrogation program. He will then be able to render an informed legal opinion. We strongly suggest that you sit in on any such briefing and that you invite the chairman and the ranking member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence to take part as well. Receiving the same briefing at the same time (and, ideally, having it taped) should enhance the likelihood of candor and make it possible for all to be—and to stay—on the same page on this delicate issue.

If the White House refuses to allow such a briefing, your committee must, in our opinion, put a hold on Mukasey’s nomination. We are aware that the
president warned last week that it will be either Mukasey as our attorney
general or no one. So be it. It is time to stand up for what is right and require from the Executive the information necessary for the Senate to function responsibly and effectively. It would seem essential not to approve a nominee who has already made clear he is reluctant to ask questions of the White House. How can a person with that attitude even be proposed to be our chief law enforcement officer?

We strongly urge that you not send Mukasey’s nomination to the full Senate before he makes clear his view on waterboarding. Otherwise, there is considerable risk of continued use of the officially sanctioned torture techniques that have corrupted our intelligence services, knocked our military off the high moral ground, severely damaged our country’s standing in the world, and exposed U.S. military and intelligence people to similar treatment when captured or kidnapped. One would think that Judge Mukasey would want to be briefed on these secret interrogation techniques and to clarify where he stands.

The most likely explanation for Mukasey’s reticence is his concern that, should his conscience require him to condemn waterboarding, this could cause extreme embarrassment and even legal jeopardy for senior officials this time not just for the so-called “bad apples” at the bottom of the barrel. We believe it very important that the Senate not acquiesce in his silence—and certainly not if, as seems the case, he is more concerned about protecting senior officials than he is in enforcing the law and the Constitution.

It is important to get beyond shadowboxing on this key issue. In our view,
condoning Mukasey’s evasiveness would mean ignoring fundamental American values and the Senate’s constitutional prerogative of advice and consent.

At stake in your committee and this nomination are questions of legality,
morality, and our country’s values. And these are our primary concerns as well. As professional intelligence officers, however, we must point to a supreme irony—namely, that waterboarding and other harsh interrogation practices are ineffective tools for eliciting reliable information. Our own experience dovetails well with that of U.S. Army intelligence chief, Maj. Gen. John Kimmons, who told a Pentagon press conference on September 6, 2006: “No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that.”

Speaking out so precisely and unequivocally took uncommon courage, because Kimmons knew that just across the Potomac President Bush would be taking quite a different line at a press conference scheduled to begin as soon as Kimmons finished his. At the White House press conference focusing on interrogation techniques, the president touted the success that the C.I.A. was having in extracting information from detainees by using an “alternative set of procedures.” He said these procedures had to be “tough,” in order to deal with particularly recalcitrant detainees who “had received training on how to resist interrogation” and had “stopped talking.”

The Undersigned
(Official duties refer to former government work.)

Brent Cavan
Intelligence Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA

Ray Close
Directorate of Operations, CIA for 26 years—22 of them overseas; former Chief of Station, Saudi Arabia

Ed Costello
Counter-espionage, FBI

Michael Dennehy
Supervisory Special Agent for 32 years, FBI; U.S. Marine Corps for three years

Rosemary Dew
Supervisory Special Agent, Counterterrorism, FBI

Philip Giraldi
Operations officer and counter-terrorist specialist, Directorate of Operations, CIA

Michael Grimaldi
Intelligence Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA; Federal law enforcement officer

Mel Goodman
Division Chief, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA; Professor, National Defense University; Senior Fellow, Center for International Policy

Larry Johnson
Intelligence analysis and operations officer, CIA; Deputy Director, Office of Counter Terrorism, Department of State

Richard Kovar
Executive Assistant to the Deputy Director for Intelligence, CIA: Editor, Studies In Intelligence

Charlotte Lang
Supervisory Special Agent, FBI

W. Patrick Lang
U.S. Army Colonel, Special Forces, Vietnam; Professor, U.S. Military Academy, West Point; Defense Intelligence Officer for Middle East, Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA); founding director, Defense HUMINT Service

Lynne Larkin
Operations Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA; counterintelligence; coordination among intelligence and crime prevention agencies; CIA policy coordination staff ensuring adherence to law in operations

Steve Lee
Intelligence Analyst for terrorism, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA

Jon S. Lipsky
Supervisory Special Agent, FBI

David MacMichael
Senior Estimates Officer, National Intelligence Council, CIA; History professor; Veteran, U.S. Marines (Korea)

Tom Maertens
Foreign Service Officer and Intelligence Analyst, Department of State; Deputy Coordinator for Counter-terrorism, Department of State; National Security Council (NSC) Director for Non-Proliferation

James Marcinkowski
Operations Officer, Directorate of Operations, CIA by way of U.S. Navy

Mary McCarthy
National Intelligence Officer for Warning; Senior Director for Intelligence Programs, National Security Council

Ray McGovern
Intelligence Analyst, Directorate of Intelligence, CIA; morning briefer, The President’s Daily Brief; chair of National Intelligence Estimates; Co-founder, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

Sam Provance
U.S. Army Intelligence Analyst, Germany and Iraq (Abu Ghraib); Whistleblower

Coleen Rowley
Special Agent and attorney, FBI; Whistleblower on the negligence that facilitated the attacks of 9/11.

Joseph Wilson
Foreign Service Officer, U.S. Ambassador and Director of Africa, National Security Council.

Valerie Plame Wilson
Operations Officer, Directorate of Operations

  • Brenda Stewart

    My next question is, will the specific ppl that this is addressed to listen to these very well qualified ppl?

    I seriously doubt this since they do now listen to we the ppl who put them there in their job title. This is a shame that we even have to do such a letter writing to get them to understand this very well known fact!

    Addressed forlorn and embittered to congress’ working……

    Next is why this one man who wants the AG title is not more inquisitive than he is..is he just prolonging the inevitable? Maybe someone ought to have him undergo waterboarding to let him completely understand what it is really all about!!!!

    • Brenda Stewart

      BTW, Mr. Johnson, I wish to thank you for all that you are doing to help secure our country and what we stand for. I applaud you……

    • gene Jones

      Here is the letter that Florida Veterans for Commons Sense sent to Senators Feinstein and Schumer.

      Florida Veterans for Common Sense, a non-partisan veterans’ group with members who have served in every conflict from WWII to the Iraq, ask you to reconsider your decision to vote to confirm Judge Michael Muskasey as Attorney General.

      Judge Mukasey is disingenuous when he says that he doesn’t know if waterboarding is torture. We know. It is an humiliating and demeaning coercive interrogation technique violative of Common Article 3 of The Geneva Conventions, a war crime. After WWII, America prosecuted Japanese soldiers for war crimes who used waterboarding to terrorize American soldiers. Domestic Courts have described “the water cure” and “water torture” as a human rights violations and a means to coerce confessions. The Pentagon’s new interrogation manual prohibits coercive techniques like waterboarding. American law and precedent confirms waterboarding amounts to torture.

      Torture is a terror technique and those who employ, condone, or authorize it are terrorists. They should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. President Bush should not be reluctant to appoint an Attorney General who will prosecute such crimes unless President Bush himself is complicit in authorizing torture.

      In the opinion of Florida Veterans for Common Sense, you shame yourself and America by voting to confirm as Attorney General a person who claims not to know if waterboarding is torture. Former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote legal memoranda condoning torture. Congress nevertheless confirmed him as Attorney General, a tragic mistake. Please don’t make a similar mistake by voting to confirm Judge Muskasey.

      Sincerely,

      Gene Jones, President Florida Veterans for Common Sense

      • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

        Terrific letter. Thank you so much for sharing this important contribution to the dialogue.

    • SirScud

      INCOMING>>>>>
      As of a few moments ago the Senate Judiciary Committee approved the nomination of Michael Mukasey by a vote of 11 to 8,(all 9 Republicans voting in favor, joined by Feinstein and Schumer of AIPAC)and sent it to the Senate for a floor vote.

      The Above letter from the “Intelligence veterans” is certainly a positive step in the correct direction, and they certainly represent a vast wealth of knowledge and experience in the IC. I, for one, would appreciate hearing their voices more often, especially when it comes to speaking out before corruption and criminal behavior has been publicly disclosed and condemned by most thinking citizens. At the risk of appearing cynical, this appears to be more of an opportunistic public relations ploy designed to repair perceived image problems and garner public favor, than it does some courageous act of patriotism.
      Everyone who has played an active role in the IC in the past 50+ years knows the many ways that the blind trust and ignorance of the American people has been both used and abused to do both good and bad acts in the name of our country. It is time for the shroud of secrecy to be lifted from all of the bad actors, without exception! Hiding behind secret oaths and the pretense of national security to protect those who have promulgated corrupt policies and criminal activities is not the courageous behavior of patriots, it is the behavior of petty facilitators, who have lost their moral compass; and who would rather continue to use their knowledge and skills to perpetuate the lies and obfuscations championed by those who are bent on undermining our existence as a democratic republic. Just as torture is known to be antithetical to reliable intelligence, so is deceit and historical revisionism counterproductive in a functional democracy, predicated on an informed public.

  • Jake D.

    Brenda:

    Do you support abortion? Maybe someone ought to have YOU undergo an abortion to let you completely understand what it is really all about!!!!

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      What are you talking about? Is this intended as an attack on Brenda? And your reason is?

    • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

      Jake,
      Per a vote of the powers that be, you’re banned from commenting at NQ.

      It’s unacceptable to argue that the US has a right to torture, which is ultimately what you’re saying. We’re supposed to be a civilized nation, which upholds the rule of law and human rights. Civilized nations don’t torture.

      • Jake D.

        O.K., bye then.

        • http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

          Goodbye, trivializer, whitewasher and apologist for GROSS, ILLEGAL, BU$HIST, UN-AMERICAN ACTS.

  • Jake D.

    I was simply using Brenda’s own faulty logic back at her — no actual attack intended — my “reason” was to simply point out that good people from both sides of this debate can agree to disagree, that’s all.

    • Cee

      No. Good people can’t disagree on this!! Examine your conscience!

      • Jake D.

        Are you saying that Professor Alan Dershowitz is NOT a good person of conscience?!

  • Jake D.

    I doubt that 10 seconds under cellophane, with no water entering the nose or mouth, qualifies as “torture”.

    • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

      You know this for a fact because you’ve experienced water boarding?

      • Jake D.

        No, I know this for a fact because I’ve held my breath for longer than 10 seconds before.

        • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

          Of course, that would make you an expert.

          • Jake D.

            You CAN’T hold your breath for 10 seconds?

            • wabbit

              You’re an idiot.

        • Shirin

          LOL! And you think that voluntarily holding your breath, knowing you could breathe at any time is the same thing as being strapped to a board and immobilized by people who wish you harm, having a rag forced into your mouth (or “celophane over it – which by the way rather seriously impedes breathing), and then having water poured over your face for a period of time you cannot control and cannot anticipate, and having this done over and over and over again without your knowing when it will end.

          Good! Then you won’t mind being demonstrating that in front of Mukasey and others who are not sure whether or not it is torture, will you?

          • Shirin

            PS Jake D., perhaps you are unaware that it is not unusual for those who are subjected to waterboarding to pass out several times. And perhaps you are also unaware that people have died while being waterboarded.

            Oh, but you are our resident waterboarding expert, so I am sure you do know that.

    • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

      As a self-appointed water boarding expert, who held his breath for 10 seconds, please explain why Mukasey won’t say definitively if water boarding is legal?

      • Jake D.

        Did you read his letter to thw 500 written questions? Mukasey gave at least three separate answers to why he won’t say definitively if water boarding is legal.

    • Brenda Stewart

      Jake, were you a student of Pol Pot????!! That is in fact how he murdered many in Cambodia! He wrapped plastic bags over ppl’s heads and suffocated them to death. I just bet you were a student of his! NO Sir, I will not change the subject here. I will continue to talk oranges to oranges. All I can say to you is stuffit!!!! Yet maybe we can waterboard you and see if you can hold your breath….wanna bet you can’t??!! What I will bet is that you deficate in your pants and claw while your extremities are shackled down. I just bet just a little panic will set in making it much worse for yourself….should I take the bet? Jake you are such a fool. I wold be ashamed if I were you to even open your mouth around ppl. They might think you insane…

      • Jake D.

        I am not a student of Pol Pot (are you saying that people die from 10 seconds wrapped in plastic bags?) And I am talking oranges. YOU were the one who asked: “. . . why this one man who wants the AG title is not more inquisitive than he is..is he just prolonging the inevitable? Maybe someone ought to have him undergo waterboarding to let him completely understand what it is really all about!!!!” My question about abortion is not changing subjects – I’m just using the same, exact “orange” logic you (and Shirin and ybnormal and hoosierhoops and Jim E. who all seem to think that no one should be allowed to support torture unless they undergo torture themselves) used herein. Keep in mind that all I expressed above was a doubt that TEN SECONDS is “torture” – obviously, anything more than 10 seconds, i.e. repeated 10 second sessions, or water in the mouth (actual, you know, “controlled drowning”), or crushed testicles, could indeed be considered torture. Let me know if you still have any questions.

        • ybnormal

          RE: “all seem to think that no one should be allowed to support torture unless they undergo torture themselves”

          Speaking for myself, I don’t think AG should be allowed to support torture, period. It’s ineffective, increases risk to our own, and just plain wrong, exclamation point!

          Undergoing waterboarding is merely a suggestion for Mukasey who claims not to know what should be obvious. As for Waterboarding/torture/Controlled drowning;[read the intelligence professionals description in the post]

  • Taters

    That’s quite a group of folks.
    Good for you Larry and thanks for posting this.

  • Jake D.

    I really have to go, though, because lunch is over. See you tomorrow.

  • cruzdelsur

    To all those who have signed the letter: Thank you!

    Maybe the letter should also be sent to the two bubble heads (Feinstein and Schumer) that will confirrm Mukasey as AG

  • ybnormal

    Absolutely, Mukasey’s nomination should be held until he can give a definite clear opinion.

    Bush claims Mukasey can’t have a clear opinion because Mukasey hasn’t been briefed on the existence of the program. What does that have to do with having an opinion on whether or not the technique is torture?

    Sheldon Whitehouse asked Mukasey if waterboarding was torture, NOT whether he knew if it was being practiced.

    The intelligence professionals suggest that Mukasey be briefed. I suggest a quicker more direct way.

    If Mukasey can’t tell if waterboarding – a process of gradual controlled drowning – amounts to torture, why doesn’t he just submit himself to a waterboarding session to find out. That would clear it up right away.

    After all, if he believes in Bush’s honesty, he has nothing to be afraid of, right?

    • Jake D.

      See Brenda’s comment above — I’m not afraid either — but, let me ask you, is waterboarding where NO WATER gets into the mouth or nose “controlled drowning”?

      • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

        Drowning is suffocation Jake. You don’t need to get wet for that.

        It sounds like you’re throwing these terms around without thinking about their meaning: “Controlled drowning” means simulated drowning. In other words, the victim is made to believe they’re drowning.

        There’s a little more involved than holding your breath for a few seconds. You’re held down and made to feel as if you’re drowning. Get it?

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      I really like everything I’ve seen of Sheldon Whitehouse. What a thoughtful, intellectual, knowledgeable addition he is to the U.S. Senate.

      • TeakwoodKite

        Maybe he would make a GREAT attorney General

  • ybnormal

    Jake, I agree to disagree with your
    “10 seconds under cellophane, with no water entering the nose or mouth”

    …as if you know for a fact that is the application of the technique. How do YOU know this? Have YOU been briefed?

    I think I’d rather agree to agree with Brenda.

  • Jake D.

    Drowning is death as caused by suffocation (no debate there) when a LIQUID causes interruption of the body’s absorption of oxygen from the air leading to asphyxia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning

    The waterboarding technique was characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a “professional interrogation technique.” According to press accounts, a cloth or plastic wrap is placed over or in the person’s mouth, and water is poured on to the person’s head. As far as the details of this technique, press accounts differ — one article describes “dripping water into a wet cloth over a suspect’s face”, another states that “CELLOPHANE is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#Technique

    • ybnormal

      None of which has anything to do with the question of your briefing on the matter. But since you brought it up, it’s like saying it’s OK to have a car accident as long as you have air bags.

      Some video clips have been circulating on TV showing a demonstration of the ‘cloth in mouth’ variation. In the demo, application of water continued until the cloth was saturated enough to allow entry into the throat, inducing a gag reflex, along with the subjects opinion that it produced anxiety over the potential for drowning. This is in spite of the fact that the demo subject knows going into it that it’s a demo and therefore will not be allowed to drown.

      What do you suppose goes through the mind of a detainee in a real session, where there’s no knowledge of if or when it will stop.

      More to the point, since it’s generally acknowledged that a confidence building relationship with a subject is the most effective path to reliable information, and torture is unreliable, why are we all here splitting hairs over how much anxiety equals torture. It’s kind of like futilely trying to train my dog, by beating hime with a rope instead of a chain.

      • Jake D.

        I have never been briefed on classified information pertaining to waterboarding and have only posted knowledge already in the public domain. I simply expressed my doubt about ONE lower-level technique of waterboarding (10 seconds with no water in the mouth or nose). And, I never said “it’s OK” to be waterboarded even in that regard, any more than it’s enjoyable to be interrogated in a non-waterboarding fashion by the regular police. So, I’m not sure where you think I am speaking about any “cloth saturated enough to allow water into the throat” or “beating dogs” with chains or ropes or anything else. If you still have any questions, please let me know.

        • Harry Smartz

          Why is this guy still allowed to post? He keeps prattling on about “10 seconds” and “no water in the mouth”. That’s not waterboarding. Waterboarding is pouring water through a cloth over the victim’s face so that is begins to fill the nasal cavity and sinuses, eventually rising to the level where is begins to trigger the gag reflex, stopping breathing. There’s no 10-second rule. They do it until the victim surrenders or loses consciousness. Sometimes until he dies. After WW2 we prosecuted Japanese soldiers who used waterboarding on our troops. If it was criminal then, it’s criminal now.

          Jake is just trying to justify the behavior of the war criminals upon whose bandwagon he foolishly climbed.

    • Shirin

      Gee, Jake, have you ever tried wrapping cellophane over your face? Or more accurately, have you ever tried being strapped to a board and immobilized, and having someone wrap cellophane over your face? You might find that suffocation is a real possibility with – you know – cellophane wrapped over your face.

      And it’s kinda different both physically and psychologically from holding your breath for ten seconds.

      • Jake D.

        No, I have never tried wrapping cellophane over my face, strapped or unstrapped to a board (see my question to Brenda above). For the last time, hopefully, no one has ever died from cellophane wrapped over their face for only 10 seconds.

    • ybnormal

      More on cellophane; haven’t you noticed the warnings on plastic bags used for packaging? ‘Don’t put over your head, don’t give to kids or pets’. Those warnings did not come from benevolent company executives. They came from the company’s legal department, in response to lawsuits after people and animals died.

      • mudkitty

        For Crikey’s sake! The US prosecuted the Japanese after WW2 for waterboarding.

        • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

          US Generals declared water boarding illegal during Vietnam. The Italian Inquisition liked to use it, however. Guess if it was good enough for the Inquisition, it’s good enough for Bush.

    • Fred Seamon

      I am a retired army intelligence officer. Torture, which includes waterboarding, in illegal per international law. It is also immoral and ineffective.

      I suggest you read the letters condemning torture prepared by military JAGs and senior intelligence officers, in other words, by members of the uniformed services most likely to be subject to torture if captured.

      If you doubt water boarding is torture, I suggest you undergo it, as did assistant attorney general Daniel Levin. I guarantee that within a few minutes you would be willing to tell your interrogators whatever they wanted you to say to stop the water boarding.

      • Jake D

        What about a few seconds? Also, see my comment re: Brenda.

  • k

    Larry-
    Haven’t you said you have CIA friends that did very dangerous things to Pablo Escobar?
    How is that ok, but waterboarding isn’t?

    • Larry Johnson

      Never said such a thing and b) cia never had escobar in its custody. he was shot by colombian police on the roof next to his condo in medellin.

  • Bob F

    Crikey, Jake, you sure are lame. Did you even read the first para for the wiki ref? Do you understand the difference between you holding your own breath, and having someone else control your ability to breathe?
    Why do I even ask.
    Making someone believe they are about to die is torture. Possible side effects – brain damage, lung damage, lasting psychological trauma? Mere piffle, right tough guy Jake? You make me sick, Jake. You are reprehensible. You eagerly put the Black Hat on Lady Liberty, because you are so afraid. WATB.

    • Jake D.

      Please note how I respond to you post without resorting to ad hominem attacks. I did read the entire first paragraph on waterboarding, and I understand the difference between holding your own breath, and having someone else control your ability to breathe (even for 10 seconds). I’m not sure why YOU ask, but I know why I am asking the following question: are you SURE making someone believe they are about to die, even if it is for just a split second, is the legal definition of “torture” that you want to go with? Close down all those high-speed roller coasters then : )

      • Jamieth2000

        Yes, making someone believe they are about to die is torture. I would call that extreme emotional distress.

  • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

    Great letter Larry! Frances Townsend is on C-Span right now explaining how our Democratic values are the best tool to fight terrorism. Talk about irony! Democratic values such as torture?

  • Reggie

    Jake, when you’re in a hole…

  • http://www.food4humanity.org hoosierhoops

    Jake: I’m willing to bet if I got the weekend to waterboard you as often as i wished..mmmmm. I’m pretty sure you’d think it was torture..Imagine if you gave me 6 months to do it..
    What exact rules do the torturers have to follow?
    where is the line drawn? how often can i submit you to it? once an hour? once a minute? constantly allowing only a brief period to gasp for air?
    Or do they follow the Wikki rules manual that you quote..I’m so sure they do..Well when they aren’t waterboarding them or stacking them naked and putting leashes on them…hey why not bring back the Iron maiden? I understand that worked pretty good.
    Just don’t waterboard and no lines need be crossed.
    Gawd.. I thought this was a moral nation..a beacon on a hill..a thousand points of light..
    Bush & friends have changed the beacon to the headlight of a fast approaching train…

  • PrchrLady

    Thank you Larry, for doing this. I had just read it on After Downing Street, and was so happy to hear that you, and many of your friends will not remain silent. I pray they will listen to the common sense of your words.

    Jake— I am going to try to give you the benefit of the doubt for a minute here, although your words show much more of your true character than you might really like. I know that I don’t like it very much. I am guessing you might be all of 14 or so, judging by your writing and research skills. I pray you will get better if you want to argue with people who are truly in the ‘know’. Your comments are so inanely stupid, that they do not really deserve the attention they have recieved. You remind me of a young bushie boy, who thinks it is exciting to cause pain and suffering to others. And we know how that fool grew up. Read the article below, and weep, for unless you change quickly, you just might get to join these madmen when their crimes against humanity will be paid for in full… Grow Up~~~

    http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/analysis/227

    • Jake D.

      Thank you, Marlene, for “trying” to give me the benefit of the doubt for a minute at least. I read your linked article, AND the comments that followed said article, which gave me quite a hoot actually – especially from those of you who were so upset about Terry Schiavo’s diagnosis via videotape – not only is Bush a psychopath, he is now from “another blood line” (as in, what, a vampire”?)?!. You guys are too funny.

      As someone named Fiore correctly pointed out, “Sociopath” and “Psychopath” are exactly the same thing – the current version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, DSM IV, renames the condition Antisocial Personality Disorder which REQUIRES a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 (with clinical evidence of conduct disorder before age 15 years AND the occurrence of antisocial behavior cannot exclusively be during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episodes), as indicated by at least three (or more) of the following:

      1. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest (regardless of whether you think his acts are lawful, a sitting President cannot be indicted or arrested);

      2. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure (there’s no proof that any alleged “Bush lie” is for profit or pleasure);

      3. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead (O.K., that’s one);

      4. Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults (has President Bush ever personally been in a physical fight, repeatedly?);

      5. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others (by “others” you mean “Iraqis”? No more so than Truman’s reckless disregard for Japanese civilians in Hiroshima or Nagasaki);

      6. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain steady work or honor financial obligations (taking out loans, as long as we pay them back, is fine); and / or

      7. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

      Can you at least give President Bush the same benefit of the doubt?

  • Taters

    Geez, the way Jake puts it, it’s like throwing a baseball at a target and dunking someone at the county fair. Just good hearted, clean entertainment for the family.

    Now back when this country had a real Republican president…

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6647.html

    (I posted this on another thread but I believe it merits re – linking.)

    • Jake D.

      Please see my responses above and let me know if you still have any questions — I will check in tomorrow.

  • Taters

    Hmmm…anybody else getting the strong stench of freepers around here?
    BTW – They love the idea of torture. it’s in their DNA.

  • PrchrLady

    You are right again, Taters… I read this op ed late last night, and it is on the issue of torture. It isn’t long, but has a lot of good things to say, and ponder upon. Let’s keep working to defeat this regime who would condone torture upon any other person, even if they might be our enemies…

    http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/10828

    Kucinich is inroducing Impeachment on the House Floor tomorrow. If you have not already done so, I hope everyone here will take a few moments to call and write their reps and request their support. It is most important that they vote NO on any efforts to table the bill. Let’s help put Impeachment back on the table. Damn all the politicians, let’s do it NOW…

    http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/28411

  • Sandy

    Astounding! This is what this country has become! The acceptability of waterboarding!

    Bush and Cheney have destroyed this country and everything it has stood for.

    • cruzdelsur

      not this country… this administration.

  • Shirin

    This morning on Democracy Now there is an interview with a French journalist who actually underwent waterboarding repeatedly during the Algerian revolution against the French.

    I know that Jake, who can hold is breath for ten seconds, is our resident waterboarding expert, and therefore has the final word on it, but it might still be a good idea to listen to that interview.

  • Jim E

    Tell ya what, jake d. and friends, how about I put your nuts in a vice, just short of pulping them, we’ll call it “simulated testicle implosion” and because I’m a nice guy I’ll give you a minute before it starts again.

  • PrchrLady

    Just read that Olberman is doing a special comment on his show tonight on bush and his torture policy… should be good, as Keith has no questions in his mind about the criminality of this group.

    http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/05/special-comment-on-countdown-tonight/

    and again, Larry, Susan, Leslie… thanks for this forum. somedays I think that it is one of the few things that keep me sain… I do so appreciate the comments and support I feel here, even when we ‘disagree’ on some of the finer points, the care and concern of this boards posters is evident.

    I pray I live long enough to see this house of cards built by these neocons tumble into the abyss.. How dare they even do one of these horrors in my name, or in the name of this once great nation? It is against the very moral fiber of humanity. They must be stopped, before the damage is not repairable…
    I continue to ask HOW, where am I to fit into this bigger picture? As I fast and pray for Peace, and the return to sanity, I am greatful for those who risk so much to tell the truth. May God richly bless you for your efforts.. Marlene

    • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

      Oh, thanks for the heads-up Marlene!

  • Neil

    Is it the same people in this country who think torturing/waterboarding is reasonable aka not illegal but abortion should be?

    • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

      Yeah, try to figure that one out?

  • Neil

    If there were no

    1. photos of the toture and abusive inhuman degradation in Abu Ghraib

    2. evidence that the techniques employed in Abu Ghraib matched techniques employed in Gitmo

    3. evidence the techniques were championed by a senior military officer who visited both prisons

    4. same techniques used in two places in the world and canot be explained as a few rogue enlistees

    5. evidence senior military officer acted under orders

    6. criminal complaint filed against Rumsfeld in France

    7. presidential signing statement on anti-toture legislation excusing the president and administration from violating the law.

    then I wouldn’t be concerned about Mukasey’s view on waterboarding and other torture techniques. But Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld have no morals and if we don’t fight back, we lose our souls too.

  • Pingback: Think Progress » 24 former intel officials demand hold on Mukasey.

  • J

    Larry,

    waterboarding was also a ‘favorite’ manner of interrogation/torture by the gestapo and nazi ss during world war ii. it is sad that mukasey, feinstein, and schumer would condone continuing Nazi gestapo – ss interrogation/torture techniques into the 21st century. the reason the gestapo and ss considered waterboarding as one of their favorites was because it left no physical markings on the body.

  • Thinking Person

    Please, good folks, ignore Jake D. He is a problem/troll on several sites. It is his goal to disrupt–nothing more/nothing less. Ignore him as you would a toddler in time-out.

    • Mauimom

      I prefer to think of Jake as the toddler rolling around on the floor in the grocery store, having a tantrum because his mom won’t buy him a candy bar.

      Just the same, ignore him: he’s the one rolling around in the dirt.

      • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

        I’m glad to announce that the great Leslie took care of Jake. He’s a goner. I never mind dissenting views, but he’s one sick person … his remark to Brenda was beyond all decency.

  • http://zippitydog.blogspot.com/ Mad Dogs

    Thank you Larry, and Pat, and Joe and Valerie, and all of the others for this letter of both principle and conscience!

    May our Senators have the wisdom to do what is right.

    Lastly, this new poll over at The Poll Vault is timely:

    Should the Senate Democrats vote to confirm Mukasey as Attorney General?

  • graywolf

    Will the victims of another 9/11 be thankful for the opportunity to die for political correctness?

    And as for 9/11, it was allowed to happen due to the incompetence of the agencies most mentioned as affiliations of the signers.

    These individuals may, or may not, have had any connection to the gross malfeasance that led to 9/11, but I wonder about the judgement of people who advertise their association with such inept and bungling organizations.

  • MufsMom

    Larry, thank you! Many of us are heading toward despair and it is acts like these which show there are people out there who remember what their oaths really meant and who honor what the country once stood for. All of you who signed give us hope!

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  • DaMav

    Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame — roflmbo. Instant crebility destruction. The signature block could have been replaced by “The Usual Whining Liberal Losers” and maintained the same meaning.

    Good luck block Mukasey, you idiots.

  • Kathleen

    Thank you to all of the above mentioned intelligence officers for your service to our country and to the manner in which you served. Thank you for stepping up to the plate by standing up for integrity and following the rule of law within the intelligence system. We are right behind you.

    I am sending this letter out to every Senator I can. I hope others do the same. Spread this letter far and wide tonight!

    Kathleen

  • Kathleen

    How could the appointment of Mukasey effect the upcoming espionage trial. Could he dismiss it or undermine the trial?

    • Jamieth2000

      At least two trials (civic) brought by innocent people that were kidnapped and tortured have been dismissed because the Justice Department claimed the case would damage national security.

  • seamus

    Jake D is a serial troll. He has admitted at TPM that he is paid to do this. Banned from Think Progress and maybe TPM by now. He has pretends obtuseness as a way of sidetracking serious discussions into inanities, similar to the 10 seconds dodge he is trolling here. Ignoring him is the worst thing you can do to him, he can’t argue with himself.

    • Jake D

      I have never said I am paid to post — I’m retired, so I have plenty of time to waste on liberal blogs — since I was “banned” by some sort of vote, however, I will certainly not waste any more time here. Enough Democrats rolled over on Mukasey anyways.

      God Bless.

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    ANNOUNCEMENT:

    Larry did Rachel Maddow today. Is doing Al Jazeera — don’t you wish our chickenshit cable/satellite companies would have the b-lls to air Al Jazeera English?

    And he’s doing Stephanie Miller.

    All on this letter.

    If any of you spot the video/audio for any of these programs, please e-mail me the URLs. Thanks!

    • TeakwoodKite

      Al Jazeera English is coming beginning in 08 I understand. I am wondering if it will get jammed in the US as it has in the last few years…It’s a matter of time as to when the “global media market” will get in step with “global economy” and over run the way the “news” is presented in this country. Will they edit their coverage at the request of the US government as they did for the recent UBL communication for the Saudi’s? It is a intresting dynamic force. Nothing like C-SPAN I guess.

  • http://www.food4humanity.org hoosierhoops

    graywolf
    Will the victims of another 9/11 be thankful for the opportunity to die for political correctness?

    well why not just waterboard every Arab in the world
    until we find someone plotting against us?
    If we must choose between torture and political correctness, i choose the later..We are a moral nation built on laws and justice for all. You want us to become a nation of animals built on fear and revenge. You don’t have to fight fire with fire..You can use water. I like our chances with the NSA, CIA and FBI. you prefer war crimes.
    OBL is calling..he wants his tactics back..

    • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

      Hoopster,
      We shouldn’t stop with Muslims and Arabs. Al Qaeda is very clever. They’ve probably infiltrated Neighborhood Watch and the PTA by now. We can’t be too safe, so let’s waterboard everybody…starting with Graywolf.

      • http://www.food4humanity.org hoosierhoops

        yes leslie..if the GOP had thier way..Well i shutter to think where the line would move to on torture and waterboarding.
        _____________________________________

        Larry: It would be great if you posted and let us know when you are going to be on radio and TV appearances..I have only seen you once on CNN and would like to see and hear more of your insight and informed opinions. ( The reason i came here was because i saw you once on..I think it was the paula zahn show )
        _____________________________________

        Here in Indiana..tomarrow is voting day for state offices.. I’m not sure about the rest of america but can I encourage all of you to go out and spend a few minutes to Vote? Talk to your friends and family to make a difference and vote change.
        It’s what makes America great..
        _____________________________________
        Got a letter from Jordan in Iraq..He is doing fine. There is something he said that makes us so proud of him and the Marines…
        As you know..my wife sends care packages to him daily..It turns out that most of the hard candy we send him he has been giving away to the children in his area..Every morning he wakes up they are waiting for him to start giving away candy..He said that daily the kids gather around his post and wait for Jordan to wake up and come out to see them…
        He is so proud to make friends with them and help them out with little treats…
        I am so proud of him..everybody loves jordan and he really likes kids and helping them out.
        I can’t be there but i can see the way my son is..
        He is so strong yet so gentle to the weakest amoung us..
        He is everybody’s big brother..
        I never thought i could write these words, because it didn’t make sense..
        Jordan is my Hero..
        He stands on that wall..and takes a knee to those that need help..That’s my boy..I am so proud of him.

      • graywolf

        AAwwww….Leslie

        And I thought we were coming to a community sing of “kumbiya”

      • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

        Actually, in Europe, there is a new growing problem. BBC World News America did a report on it yesterday, and it was disturbing — although, for now, it’s a small problem, but it could get worse.

        Many young Germans, for example, are converting to the Muslim religion and are being heavily recruited by extremists. One former athlete/football player, a German native who converted, was arrested as part of the plan to attack the U.S. military base in Germany. The story also featured a former champion boxer in Germany who’s converted, and who’s traveling across Germany to recruit more Germans to become Muslims. He ridiculed the concern that converted Germans will become terrorists. I hope that is so. It sounds like a minor problem, overall, except for that one German who was part of the terrorist plot. And I’m sure that European authorities are keeping a close eye on things, as they should.

  • Jack Moss

    All this from the dolt who said we had nothing to worry about prior to 9/11. Funny I remember Lang from ‘Nam.

    Seems he had a little trick of stringing VC out of helicopters. Scared the hell out of them. If they talked, great if they didn’t – splat.

    Guys like you give America a smelly ass.

    • Taters

      You’re a contemptible liar. With nothing to back up your idiotic ravings.

  • Kathleen

    Sent this letter out to Firedoglake, Huffington Post, Raw Story. Folks should send it out to every blog, every Rep, every friend, before the wee hours of the morning.

  • Thinker

    Larry, some potentially heartening news, but Jim M makes a good point in the latest article.

    2 issues at present are, is waterboarding torture or not torture? Is it legal or illegal?

    What happens in the scenario that it is decided that it is torture but ok?

    Alternatively if it remains unclassified or “legal” are there going to be no controls on the potential of its use?

  • Al

    Great article today at American Thinker. It pretty much counters all of this Liberal/Socialist whining:

    The ‘Torture’ Fraud of the Left
    http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_torture_fraud_of_the_left.html

    It’s very good.

    • Ginny in CO

      Well, the ‘great article’ countering all of this whining sure was a let down.
      J.R. Dunn has apparently not read much of the information on what did go on at Abu Ghraib or Gitmo.”The commanding officer, Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, was said never to have set foot in the actual prison.” Irrefutable hearsay?

      Not a problem that “street corner toughs” in Abu Ghraib were subjected to what was humiliation, not torture. Sodomy is allowed under the Geneva conventions? Dunn maintains the issue is blown out of proportion because of “the Al-Queda practice of claiming torture under all circumstances when in custody” – regardless of the very small numbers of the prisoners ever being identified as AQ.

      He disagrees that “a slap on the head, several days without sleep, or hearing Rage Against the Machine played at full volume is fully the equivalent of torture in the classic sense”. They aren’t using racks, chains; or drawing and quartering them, so it isn’t torture. If we go back and read all that stuff about disembowelling people, cutting off genitals and breasts, skinning them alive or the Norse entertainment of cutting open the chest to watch the heart and lungs slowly come to a stop, we would understand none of this is ‘classic’ torture.

      The guards are to blame too, “the Abu Ghraib guards: halfwit knuckle-draggers” from “the back woods”. This would be our highly trained military, who have come forward to explain the poor training they had, interference by interogators who were private contractors, and a very high prisoner to guard ratio.

      Dunn is content with telling an anecdote as though it was true – with no references, links, names. Why ruin a great article with the details?

      Let me suggest another litmus test of what is or isn’t torture. Would you want an enemy to do it to American soldiers?

      The ultimate argument is that in some circumstances, we have to give up on laws, treaties, ethics.

      Sheik Muhhamed Khalid … was waterboarded for one reason alone: he was involved in the 9/11 attack, both preparation and execution, and authorities needed to know if any other such attacks were in store.

      And how do we know the information they got was accurate? Because there had been no other attacks? We already figured that out. And that due to the Iraq war/occupation, Al Qaeda is in too sweet a position doing terrorism in the middle and far east, plus Africa and Europe, to need to attack us.

      Maybe the authorities could have given better support and attention to the intelligence agencies we have to figure that out.

      As an RN, I am very conscious that medical procedures are traumatizing to humans who have consented to them. The signature aspect of torture and abuse is that the victim is without any control and totally at the mercy of the perpetrator – who clearly indicates they have no mercy, let alone any control of their emotions/actions.

      The really stupid part of this is that Bush HAS sold his ideas to the American public. That a bunch of ill financed zealots who have no national backing are powerful enough to cause the USA significant damage. (Well, some of us will agree this is somewhat possible when BushCo is in charge of defending the country.)

      International organized crime is light years ahead of the terrorists.

      • Ginny in CO

        This was a little confusing:

        This would be our highly trained (in combat) military, who have come forward to explain the poor training they had (guarding prisoners),

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  • judyinnm

    I think that Jake D is really dick cheney; and that if he had any respect for the laws that used to govern this country, he’d be objecting to the practice,too. But Cheney wants the privilege of getting to DO the torturing, himself.

    But 9/11 changed everything – now, the most powerful country on the face of the earth has been reduced to a whimpering crybaby; with no principles, no morality, only the imperative that “please don’t kill me. I’ll become just like you (or worse); only don’t hurt me”. It’s embarrassing to be American, these days.

  • Kathleen

    Please spread this letter far and wide. I have sent it out to a multitude of Senators and websites. Please we need to get this out far and wide

  • wfeather

    What is the exact wording of the oath that Mukasey must swear to take the job? I’m specifically interested in the part about avoidance of ‘embarrassment and even legal jeopardy for senior officials.’

  • Pingback: Wow! Impressive call for hold on Mukasey « Later On

  • wisco

    As much as I hate to feed the trolls…

    If jake thinks this thing he calls waterboarding is so benign, then what’s the point of it for interrogation purposes? It’s just like holding your breath? Oooh, scary! I’ll tell you everything! And it even cured my hiccups!

    jake, for it to have any purpose at all, it has to cross the line into illegality. Period.

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  • subtropolis

    Larry, I just came across a new site that attempts to explain what this practice (technique?) is and is not: waterboarding.org

    “Our main purpose is to provide you with the clearest possible understanding of what waterboarding is, so you can draw your own conclusions about it.”

    The explanations are quite clear and have helped me to better understand what this is.

    How To Help

    We are interested in:

    * Confirmations or corrections of the material posted here, from former or present interrogators.
    * Personal accounts of waterboarding experiences, especially from former detainees of any government or civil conflict.
    * A tort lawyer willing to help draft a liability waiver to allow us to waterboard willing participants.
    * Professional EMTs or paramedics willing to pro bono supervise a consensual, recreational waterboarding, especially in Washington DC.

    Perhaps you or someone you know could give it a look.

    I’m not so sure they should be thinking about “willing participants” but, anyway …

  • Pingback: Alsotrack.Com » Urgent: Letter from Intelligence, Military, Diplomatic, and Law …

  • Michael John Keenan

    The Senator Feinstein deserves a Certificate of Maturity in History from Himmler himself.

    In Jean Amery’s, The Minds Limit, his capture and descent into torture by German Nazi’s, starts by pointing out that his torturers showed no “banality of evil” in their faces. First there is the “laugh” and then the “first blow.” The prisoner then realizes that they are “helpless”. Lost is the “trust in the world.” Certainly there is no “mutual aid in nature.” No. It is time for the “business room. “This is more commonly referred to as the “Black Room” in today’s parlance.

    But before describing his own torture the author makes “good on a promise I gave.” Not that they where not specialists in torture, but more so his conviction that “torture was the essence of Nationalist Socialism….more accurately stated, why it was precisely in torture that the Third Reich materialized in all the density of its being.” I ask you dear Citizens should we also “codify” that the detainees at Camp X-ray can also be children as recently reported in the news? Not only does that sound slightly like the rule of anti-man but I do believe anti-child included. And if that is so then the rule practiced as such has “expressly established it as a principle.” So just what else in “essence” does go on at Camp X-ray? “Tricks?” Plead mercy, pray tell? And now comes news on Abu Ghraib.

    Refuse Himmler’s offer for a Certificate of Maturity in History and stop those jet flights I would suggest, Ms. Feinstein. Nay, to forsake the Constitution and be depraved of our humanity would be more painful in the end. Slavery to torture is all you will get. At least Hitler was restrained from jettisoning the Geneva Conventions even with his back against the wall in February of 1945. I smell now the chief prosecutor Jackson’s closing arguments at the Nuremberg trials. Go tell that to the Marines Senator Feinstein!

    What else will I be called to bear witness too by those who claim falsely to be my fellow citizens like this so-called Senator and who accept torture as a second nature? Do they not know that the word citizen or the word individual allows for no definition, which accepts the philosophy of anti-man nor anti-women? That by accepting torture, any definition of torture, that this country’s history is then removed in one fell swoop. Gone is the cry of Peoples Sovereignty born of the English Civil War. And gone too is the claim that people after the U.S. Civil War will never again be considered as just some owners private property in this nations economy. And what in their place now reigns but the concept of the Corporation as a person? Banished is the so-called Constitution of the United States. So why not now that the Articles of the Confederation are back in vogue and unimpeded by any Bill of Rights. This will work just fine as it has for Blackwater. Ultimately, the dead corpse of a Corporation is venerated over the flesh and blood of the living. Welcome all to the Senators world of Corporate Feudalism where all shall love and worship the new State Torturer who rules the World Supreme.

    The committee did not even seek or get a quid pro quo and have Mukasay agree to appoint a special prosecutor for investigating all these alleged crimes.

    Or let us nominate someone like Judge Damon Keith as AG instead. He handled Nixon perfectly. This would also prevent the same tragedy under Nixon from turning into a farce under Bush.

    I am Citizen Michael John Keenan

    The Los Angeles Times has my permission to print my response to Senator Feinstein’s Saturday opinion.

  • lespool

    Jake D, irregardless of your age, your penchant for abortions, passion for violence, and pleas for man’s inhumanity to man is a divine manifestation — an epiphany — an apocalyptic revelation doncha know? My gawd, you have a purpose in life after all! Now you git your pusillanimous skinny ass down to the nearest recruitment office and enlist in the US Army. — Your reason to exist sir is to die in the war on terror over there so you don’t have to fight your fellow Americans over here. — And then the rest of us can evolve!

  • http://360.yahoo.com/caspereraser1 NATIONAL-SECURITY-4-US

    Greetings,

    Hopefully I may find the assistance that I am looking
    for in regards to finding a ATTORNEY with some balls & isn’t afraid of some serious career criminals running AMERICA…

    http://www.fbi.gov/page2/may04/bolo052604.htm

    This 5/26/2004 Press Conference had these 7 people in
    COLOR / ACTIVE…
    This print-out was 12/4/2004 & 3 were captured going
    from color to black & white = CAPTURED OR KILLED…

    Many things happened after the 5/29/2004 capture of 2
    of these people – MOST LIKELY BECAUSE IT NOW SEEMS TOME THEY WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE CAUGHT – SO THIS COULD TRANSPIRE IN AMERICA…

    RECENTLY CHENEYS’ AIDE SAID THIS –

    “WE ARE 1 BOMB AWAY FROM OUR GOALS”

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/09/04/addington/index.html?source=newsletter

    Well I do believe that I truly fucked-up someones’ game-plan back then – well now all of the language is
    in place for AMERICA to be overthrown by PRESIDENTIAL
    ORDERS / DIRECTIVES…

    Funny thing here is “the decider” recently let a MOST
    WANTED TERRORIST GO BY DUMPING HIM IN SOMALIA-1/2007
    & DELIBERATELY VIOLATED VARIOUS U.S./INTERNATIONAL LAWS ALONG THE WAY…

    Also “the decider” violated his oath to defend the constitution & or adhere to it – REWARDS/BOUNTIES…

    Then throws “THE PROTECT AMERICA ACT” down our throats & he let a (MWT) out of U.S. custody while under a U.S. FEDERAL INDICTMENT…

    You can read the letter I sent to Senator Leahy as well as other Congressional Oversight Committee Chairman + a e-mail to Speaker Pelosi about these crimes & the culture of corruption…

    READ ALL ABOUT WHAT TRANSPIRED AT:

    http://360.yahoo.com/caspereraser1

    IMMEDIATE IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS NEED TO GET UNDERWAY LIKE YESTERDAY – BEFORE WHAT WE NOW SEE IN PAKISTAN – HAPPENS HERE = THEN IT WILL BE TOO LATE…

    Many of you past govt. workers KNOW THE DEAL only now
    people who may have been part of the scenario then – are now no longer part of the picture…

    WE NEED TO FIX ALL OF THIS BULLSHIT / AMERICAS’ POLITICAL CHARADE PRONTO – BEFORE AMERICA IS LOST FOREVER…

    I HAVE THE MOTHER OF ALL CASES FOR IMPEACHMENT…

  • sandii

    schumer and feinstein both vote to support mukasey as they both voted to support the kyl-lieberman resolution to brand iranian rev. guard corps a terrorist organization. wonder if aipac is pulling strings on this issue as well?

    • Brenda Stewart

      I think you are on to something there, I have often thought this as well.

    • Kathleen

      think about how this appointment could effect the upcoming espionage trial that has been delayed I believe 6 times. I had wondered what was up when Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty resigned during the Attorney General scandal.

      I believed Paul McNulty was playing a very serious role in this investigation and prosecution. I wondered whether radicals were trying to take him out of play in this investigation and trial.

      Senator Schumer and Feinstein, Yes on Kyl Lieberman, Yes on Mukasey. These Democrats sure turn right (wrong) when it comes to the middle east.

      • Cee

        On the AIPAC trial

        AIPAC, Espionage, and Legal Sabotage

        Published on Monday, November 05, 2007.

        Now there has been a major development on this front. No one took seriously the defense’s motion, made a few months ago, that they be allowed to subpoena Condoleezza Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, National Security Council chief Stephen Hadley, and a whole platoon of government officials and former officials. The motion was made on the grounds that these officials, too, had transmitted classified information to AIPAC, and that this is proof that such behavior was and is routine, part of the normal way of doing business in the world of Washington lobbyists. The defendants’ case has always been that they have a First Amendment right to commit espionage, and that their indictment amounted to a government assault on their right to “free speech.” Gee, too bad the Rosenbergs never thought of this unique rationalization for treason, although I doubt it would’ve gotten them anywhere. The AIPAC defendants, however, may have more luck in this department…

        No judge had ever allowed such a thing, at least in recent memory, and no one expected Judge Ellis to look favorably on this request. That he granted the defense motion in all but a few cases is bad news for the government – and good news for the Israel lobby, which may just be spared the embarrassment of having its essential nature as a fifth column for Israel exposed to the light of day.

        In addition to Rice, Wolfowitz, and Hadley, the following can expect to be served with a summons to appear at a trial that may never happen: Larry Franklin’s boss, Douglas J. Feith, former undersecretary of defense for policy; Elliott Abrams, neocon par excellence and Iran-Contra alumnus, who served as Bush’s “deputy national security adviser for global democracy strategy”; Kenneth Pollack, a former National Security Council adviser to Bill Clinton and author of the now infamously influential book The Threatening Storm, which convinced so many liberal Democrats to support the invasion of Iraq; Marc Grossman, former undersecretary of state for political affairs; Marc Sievers, chief political affairs officer at the U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv and one of Rice’s chief advisers on Iraqi affairs; David Satterfield, a political officer at our Tel Aviv embassy; William Burns, the American ambassador to Russia; Lawrence Silverman, currently a deputy chief at the American embassy in the Slovak Republic; Matthew Bryza, a deputy assistant secretary of state; and Michael Makovsky, a former staff member of the Office of Special Plans, the policy shop where the “intelligence” pointing to Saddam Hussein’s fabled “weapons of mass destruction” was cooked up into talking points. Franklin also served in that policy shop.

        The idea that the U.S. government is going to allow this is absurd. Rather than expose the entire Israeli covert operation in its midst and permit testimony that would dramatize how much access the Israelis already have to our officials and the policy-making process, the Bush administration now has an ideal excuse to shut this case down. Rice wouldn’t even show up to a congressional hearing to answer questions about prewar intelligence, and she similarly tried to defy the 9/11 Commission on the grounds of “executive privilege.” In spite of her expressed willingness to “cooperate with our legal system,” I fully expect her to show the same disdain for Judge Ellis’ court.

        http://www.blacklistednews.com/view.asp?ID=4707

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  • Kathleen

    I want to again thank all of the above mentioned intelligence and military analyst,diplomats and law enforcement professionals who signed this letter.

    Last night I believe I witnessed again why so-called “progressives” lose many of these battles. I took your letter and sent it directly to Firedoglake, Huffington Post and Raw Story last evening. I sent it to them many times last night encouraging them to post it so that participants in those blogs and websites could write their Senators last evening referencing or posting your letter. Imagine if our Senators would have come to their offices this morning with this letter sent to them thousands of times. I sent it directly to Jane Hamsher and Christy Hardin Smith. Jane was on line last evening. I know Christy and Jane and the other bloggers at FDL do so much, but sometimes I think egos and personal agendas get in the way of being effective.

    You folks served this letter on a platter to blogs and websites giving permission to use it in full, yet last evening at Firedoglake the bloggers chose to write about “the wingnuttiest right wing blog post of all time, Pakistan (clearly an important issue, but it will still be there in a few days) Scientology, Elliot Spitzer and Lou Dobbs” Huffington Post front page was partially filled with articles about Heather Mills, Barbara Walters and Ron Paul. Hell all of these issues will be there Wednesday, the hearing for Mukasey is today. Firedoglake and other blogs could have co-ordinated an effort last night, or simply have posted your letter on their sites and let people run with it, but they did not. Why is that?

    Now I know Firedoglake hates any kind of criticism they would rather develop a fan club rather than a community where real debate takes place. Read the blog it is generally every one agreeing and stroking Jane and the other bloggers. While I greatly appreciate what they do they are truly unable to take criticism. Who does this sound like? This is where the left can go right (wrong).

    You folks presented this letter on a silver platter and the majority of folks in the progressive blogosphere did not use it. And we wonder why we lose a great deal.

    Thanks again for your important letter. I will continue to spread it around.

    • http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

      Kathleen:
      Just an FYI.. There Actually is a movie about Firedoglake.. It was a sundance movie called Blog wars 2.. Pretty cool indy movie..
      Thanks for all your efforts in getting the word out on the above posted letter.

      • Kathleen

        I respect many of the Bloggers at Firedoglake, but I swear their egos sometimes get in the way of them being effective. I sent this letter off to their “backstage crew” last evening at least 8 times (I am a bit obsessive compulsive). As mentioned above I also sent it directly to Christy and Jane (who was on line last evening) Now I know they do a great deal and have many things to focus on. I also know they have a hard time taking constructive criticism (watch what happens on the site if you question some of their bloggers opionions) But this vote is today, and these intelligence and military officials placed this letter at the blogospheres collective feet yesterday. Thank goodness Think Progress posted it. Why these bloggers do not run with such an opportunity I just can not figure it out. Go look at what they covered last night and early this morning.

        I have also challenged the FDL folks on the Israeli Palestinian issue. They stick their toes in once in a while (seldom really). Now they will argue with this, they get very defensive about this, but when you bring this issue up at their website (I have been banned for challenging the head moderator who actually became verbally and personally abusive you can actually follow the conversation at one of the blogs “WE the people”). The “off topic” blog police show up and have hammered me when I post articles about this issue and when I bring it up. Now others can go “off topic” continually about their storm windows, sports, recipes etc and the “off topic” police never ever object to this. The Bloggers use very strong language for Reps and others ( I have never come close to using this type of language). I tell you some of the threads when this topic comes up should be studied by media professionals.

        I really believe there are very serious BLOG CLOGS at many Progressive websites specifically on the I/P issue. I believe these blogs are unconsciously self monitoring themselves on the Israeli Palestinian issue as the MSM has been doing for the last 50 years. I think this would be an interesting phenomena for some expert to follow and study (I am a peasant)

        Anyway back to my original point. I hope everyone contacts their REps with this letter from these incredibly brave intelligence folks who signed this letter and placed it at our feet. They are true patriots and I am humbled by their service and bravery. I wish the progressive blogosphere would have run with this letter yesterday.

    • Cee

      You folks presented this letter on a silver platter and the majority of folks in the progressive blogosphere did not use it.

      Do you think they’re going to oppose their handlers and be subjected to a internet waterboarding?

      • Kathleen

        Good point and frightening to realize that there are so called “progressive” blogs that clearly have handlers. Blogs like Firedoglake are building “fan clubs” not progressive communities built on respectful and challenging debate.

        Leahy stands firm against torture, Spector spinning spinning.

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  • Kathleen

    While the Iranian issue is critical which is the focus of Christy Hardin Smith at the website Firedoglake this morning. Can you imagine how much more effective the progressive blogosphere could be if they would take letters like the one above and spread it throughout the blogosphere (and they had every opportunity last evening) so that Senators came into their offices this morning with thousands of e-mails posting this letter from this distinguished and heavy hitting group of intelligence and military officials and diplomats?

    Can the progressive blogosphere accept and digest constructive criticism. Or will their egos and their “backstage crews” egos continue to get in their way?

    Call your Reps this morning, mention this critical letter….

  • Kathleen

    Hey Hoosier Hoops what is the name of that movie?

  • Kathleen

    Blog Wars 2…I got it

  • TomaHawk

    The question of whether “water boarding” is torture was settled some 60 years ago. The US prosecuted Japanese military who practiced this tactic on US service personnel during WWII. It was declared torture and a war crime under the standards of the Geneva Conventions on War by our government. There is record that the US has declared Water Boarding as torture. It should no longer be a matter of interpretation.

  • Kathleen

    So for the legal heads here. How could the Mukasey appointment effect the upcoming Aipac Espionage trial?

    Could Mukasey dismiss it or undermine that trial?

  • Kathleen

    FDL now has a post up about the Mukasey issue. Sent the letter to Firedoglake again,hopefully they will finally post it. It is so appropriate and powerful.

  • Kathleen

    The Hearing going on now. Hopefully Senator Leahy brings up this letter

    http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan3_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS3

  • Kathleen

    Calling the roll. Will any Republicans vote no.

  • Kathleen

    Senator Kennedy up at the hearing. “under Gonzales we lost our way”

    “We need an Attorney General who is clear, decisive, straight forward. I had hoped that Judge Mukasey could be that person. I am sorry to say that he is not the right person to lead the Justice Dept at this critical time”

    “Judge Mukasey can not say that water boarding is torture

    Kennedy is ripping Mukasey up.

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  • Kathleen

    Senator Kennedy “Waterboarding is illegal under the Geneva Convention, the Torture Act, the Detainee Treatment Act, and it violates the constitution”

    “Can our standards have sunk so low” “he is not the clear, decisive, straight forward Attorney General that we so critically need at this time”

  • Kathleen

    A few comments from FDL.

    Ed*ard Teller @ 65

    Oklahoma kiddo @ 58

    What are the motivating factors involved in the Schumer-DiFi-Mukasey event?

    It might be their intense love of a foreign country, not a very trustworthy ally, which covets its neighbors’ lands and has been waterboarding prisoners since the early 1950s.

    From Kathleen

    And the possibility to directly interfere and dismiss the upcoming espionage trial

  • Kathleen

    Senator Kohl politely ripping Judge Mukasey up.

    “He seems to be willing to protect this administration, Judge Mukasey mirrors the Bush administrations opinion on waterboarding. The Attorney Generals commitment should be to the constitution and the law. I hope Judge Mukasey is the person we need, but I do not think at this time he is. I will vote against his nomination:

  • Kathleen

    Senator Grassly kissing up

    Uh Oh Senator “turncoat, opportunist” Feinstein. “I believe the Dept of Justice was always a “beacon”. This beacon has been dimmed” Hello Senator Feinstein your family’s war profiteering and willingness to continue to sit on MILCON until the spotlight was directed on your “conflict of interest” issues dimmed that “beacon”.

    Your vote on the Kyl Lieberman amendement, your yes vote on Mukasey continue to dim that “beacon”

    Diane a logical question is what is your “yes” for Judge Mukasey really about.

    Feinstein bought Bush’s threat that “he will not send another nominee”. How much is this about the possibility of having Judges appointed who will be soft on issues that Feinstein and Schumer want the Attorney General to go soft on.

    Feinsteins “conflict of interest” should be investigated.

  • Kathleen

    The C-span cameras just spanned the Senate crowd, no one really listening to Senator Feinstein.

    Senator Feinstein”he has a really short time” to do his work. Will be telling if Mukasey interferes in the espionage trial.

    Senator Graham “I believe Mukasey is a man of the law” “he is the right guy at the right time”

    • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

      Mukasey will also probably block Rep. Conyers from prosecuting Harriet Miers and what’s-his-name for contempt of Congress.

      Thanks for live-blogging the hearing Kathleen!

  • Kathleen

    I am surprised that the letter from Johnson, Plame, Wilson and others has yet to be mentioned.

    I did not realize that Senator Schumer recommended Mukasey to President Bush. What is up here? What are Schumer and Feinstein up to?

    Who would have been the “acting” Attorney General if Bush refused to send up another nominee? What would have happenned in that case?

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      KATHLEEN! I don’t know you, but I’m already a fan. I love all the comments you made this morning to keep us up to date on the Senate hearing, which — okay, I’m on the West Coast — I slept through. THANK YOU!

      I see via Talking Points Memo that it’s going to the full Senate.

      AND, thank you for your tremendous efforts in spreading the word about this great letter.

      I agree with you entirely about a lot of the lefty blogs. It’s occurred to me that they know that their bread-and-butter is bashing something, whatever it is, in order to stir up their readers. It’s all about getting angry reactions — not about learning, discussing, and spreading positive arguments. Those blogs that practice the angry rhetoric, sadly, do get a lot more hits. But they produce more heat than light.

      This letter, as you has promulgated it so widely, is all about light. It is the wisest words from those who are experts in intelligence, the military, and interrogation.

      It’s tragic they ignored the letter. Shame on them. At least it was at the top of the recommended list at Daily Kos all day. However, it should have been promoted to the front page, imho.

      Perhaps you’ve posted here and I’ve simply missed your posts because I’ve been in the hospital and on the mend. But I greatly, greatly appreciate your energy and your POSITIVE passion.

      My two cents about “heat versus light.” Wait until we get a Democratic president in ’09 (please, god, please). Those same blogs will be ALL over the new president. They won’t give the new pres. a moment’s peace. They won’t give the new pres. the time, the reflection, the necessary organizational procedures to get everything going before they start the attacks and they start their incessant demands.

      We have been in such an angry, upset, reactive mode for the past seven years because of the Bush presidency, far more disastrous than any of us could have ever imagined. We need to get off our high horses, should we luckily elect a Democrat to the White House, and give that new president some breathing room. God knows they’ll need it because they will be faced with the most ENORMOUS challenges imaginable — more than any president has ever had to face, and in every single area of foreign and domestic policy. The list is unimaginably long.

      That president will need us AT their backs. Not picking away from the get-go.

      But the “heat” blogs won’t do that because that’s not how they make money. Frankly, imho, they’ve become a lot more about how much money they can make off making people angry than they are about getting us a better system of government and a slow but sure restoration to international and domestic sanity.

      OFF my own high horse :) AND WELCOME, Kathleen!

  • Kathleen

    the Vote was 11 to 8. If Schumer and Feinstein would have voted against torture the vote would have been tied.

    If Mukasey interferes in the upcoming espionage trial all my fears as to why Schumer recommended him and the reason Schumer and Feinstein voted for him will be confirmed.

    Feingold “Mukasey is an improvement, but we need more. Mukasey falls short”

    Damn Feingold is an honorable person.

    “We need an Attorney General who can look the President in the eyes and say NO”

    • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

      Frigging Schumer! Frigging Feinstein!

      Hurrah for Feingold, Kennedy and the others who voted NO.

  • Kathleen

    Feingold backing up his “no” vote with example after example of the murky answers of Mukasey in regard to “executive power trumping the law”

    Feingold is a man of the law. I believe he was really hard on Clinton lying under oath about his bj.

    Feingold said that commitment to the law is a “non negotiable quality of the Attorney General of the United States”

    Feingold “the United States needs an Attorney General who stands squarely on the side of the Rule of Law”

    Feingold ripped it up with integrity.

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      Where are you watching this? I turned on C-Span2 and see nothing.

      Say, they will get the veto override on the water bill, right? A first against the damnable Bush.

    • Cee

      Too bad Feingold isn’t in th place of Pelosi or better yet, running for office. Keith mentions him.

      Keith Olbermann’s Special Comment on Waterboarding and Torture [VIDEO]

      http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/67043/

  • Kathleen

    So was this appointment Schumers master plan?

    Schumer “Dept of Justice is adrift, now we aer on the brink of a reversal” “Judge Mukasey is the man for this job”

    Was Schumer part of getting rid of Deputy Attorney General Paul McNulty? Schumer recommended Mukasey to Bush. I ask again is this Schumer Master Plan for Attorney General

    Will Schumer, and Mukasey apply the “rule of law” to the Aipac espionage case, or is there undermining going on here?

  • Kathleen

    Senator Durbin quoting Arthur Schlesinger Jr. on the torture position of the Bush administration “no position has done more damage to the US’s reputation..ever”

    Senator Durbin said that they asked Judge Mukasey a simple question “is waterboarding torture”

    Judge Mukasey answered in a vague way “that it is hypothetical”

    Durbin “water boarding is not hypothetical”

    Durbin pounding the table “What is the risk of not being clear about water boarding”
    “Judge Mukasey’s position is troubling”

    Durbin “Judge Mukasey is not alone in his dodge”

    Senator Durbin is obviously deeply concerned.

  • Kathleen

    Senator Cardin “will the nominee be able to stand up to this administration, I have deep doubts”

    “water boarding is torture and illegal today, water boarding is clearly illegal, yet Judge Mukasey has hedged on this issue.” “I want an Attorney General who will be independent of the Bush administration. Micheal Mukasey needs to be the AG for the American people and the Bush administration”

    Mukasey’s answer about water boarding “was deeply troubling”

    Senator Whitehouse that Mukasey “was given instructions by the Bush admininstration that this was a no fly zone” The reason I voted against Mukasey is that this was ” a moment of moral clarity which should be a clear and straight forward answer about water boarding and torture”

    “We are on a slow and sickening slide” under the Bush administration.

    Whitehouse is brilliant. Yowser.

    • SirScud

      INCOMING>>>>>
      Senator Whitehouse is, indeed, a welcomed addition to the Senate.
      Are you sure that your quotation(?) of his remark..
      Senator Whitehouse that Mukasey “was given instructions by the Bush administration that this was a no fly zone” The reason I voted against Mukasey is that this was ” a moment of moral clarity which should be a clear and straight forward answer about water boarding and torture”
      is accurate? It seems to be an exaggeration of his context.

  • Kathleen

    Will continue to send out this critical letter to Senators and friends

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      THANK YOU! And we can all e-mail / call our Senators: http://www.senate.gov

      I have faith that my two senators, Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell, will do the right thing. I hope. Must check their sites to see, and call their D.C. offices to be sure.

      Kathleen, e-mail me at your convenience : susanunpc at gmail dot com

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  • PrchrLady

    Thank you Kathleen!!! I have been following since you set link… great jog sumarising too… Susan, see what I mean about misssing something cause it gets lost??? there has to be a better way???

    This is totaly amazing. Totally. We must keep fighting. Perhaps there are still some republicans with a soul in congress, who will join those that stand up against these war criminals. of the worse kind. may they rot in hell forever for their crimes.

  • http://lancethruster.blogspot.com LanceThruster

    Though it ultimately seemed to fall upon deaf ears, thank you all for the attempt and your firm and pricipled stand in regards to the conduct of the American leadership.

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  • Jake D.

    Did you read his letter to the 500 written questions? Mukasey gave at least three different reasons why he can’t answer that question.

  • Jake D.

    O.K., bye.