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The IDF Ground Force (Updated)

 
EDITOR’s NOTE: The update, which is essential reading, is at the end of this post.

********************************

pat-langBy Patrick Lang

Ed. Note: As Larry Johnson wrote about Pat Lang’s other recent post on “Israel’s Gaza Misadventure,” “Pat Lang is a dear friend and a brilliant scholar. He established the Arabic program at West Point, he headed up the Defense Intelligence Agency’s Middle East Division in the 1989-1991 timeframe, and he fought in combat in Vietnam. He is steeped in both politics and military strategies and tactics. When he writes (or speaks) one ought to listen.” Pat’s thought-provoking blog is Sic Semper Tyrannis, and includes his biography.

gocacI associated with and/or conducted liaison with The Israel Defense Force (IDF) for many years. This activity occurred as part of my regular duties as a US Army officer and later as a civilian executive of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). Since my retirement from US government service I have had many occasions to visit Israel and to watch the IDF in action against various groups of Palestinians all over the West Bank. I have many friends who are retired and/or reserve members of the IDF. My observations concerning the IDF are based on that experience.

I write here of the ground force. The air force and navy are unknown to me from personal experience except that I know some of their officers from their service in joint (inter-service) assignments like general staff intelligence.

IMO, the IDF is an army built to very specifically suit Israel’s individual circumstances, needs, and philosophy. It is in some ways, a singular force. It actually more closely resembles the Swiss military establishment than it does a large standing force backed by reserve units in the way that the US Army is built.

The IDF ground force is essentially a reserve or militia army that keeps most of its forces in inactive status while maintaining a handful of units on active duty as a training base and a force in being to meet short term contingencies.

In this post I am writing of the “line” of the ground forces as represented by armor, infantry, paratroop and artillery units at brigade elvel and below, i.e., battalion and company.

The special operations forces are a small part of Israeli capabilities and are manned and maintained on a very different basis. In many ways they are more like a “SWAT” team than a military force.

To understand the IDF ground forces as an institution, there are certain things that must be understood in order to “see” clearly the actual capabilities of this army:

- Because of the heavy reliance on reserve units filled with older, part time soldiers, any mobilization of a large number of ground force units for considerable periods of time places a heavy burden on the Israeli national economy. Mobilized reservists are lost to their jobs. Israeli soldiers are among the strongest and most skilled members of their society. They are typically well employed in the civilian world. When they are gone in military service the economy suffers. This automatically limits the scale and duration of reserve mobilizations.

- Older reserve soldiers serve in units made up almost entirely of similar reservists. These units are hard to maintain at a high level of training and readiness. Only limited amounts of training time and money are available for this necessity. As a result units are often unready for deployment into combat in an emergency. On a number of occasions this problem has caused IDF troops to be committed to combat in a less than “ready” status. In other words, troops have gone into combat with equipment not properly maintained and with insufficient unit training. It must be said that they have typically been lucky in their enemies and that if they had faced more serious enemies, they would have had a much different experience than the ones they had. In the Golan Heights the Syrians gave them a very difficult time in 1973 and in the same war their victory against Egypt featured a renewal of offensive activity under the cover a cease fire which they had accepted.

- There are no career ground force sergeants except as technicians. Unless the system has changed very recently, the IDF ground forces typically do not have career NCOs in the LINE of the combat arms. This is a structural tradition that derives originally from the Russian tsar’s army and which came to Palestine through Russian and Polish Zionist immigrants. Then this passed through the Haganah into the IDF. The IDF “line” conscripts what amount to yearly classes of recruits and selects from them more promising soldiers who are given NCO level command responsibilities as; infantry leaders, tank commanders, artillery gun captains, etc. The IDF does have career NCOs but they are typically found in jobs of a more technical nature rather than junior combat command at the squad or platoon (section) level. As a result, junior officers (company grade) are required to perform duties that in more traditionally organized armies would be performed by sergeants. Leading a small combat or reconnaissance patrol would be an example. As a result, a non-reserve infantry or tank company in the field consists of people who are all about the same age (19-22) and commanded by a captain in his mid 20s. What is missing in this scene is the voice of grown up counsel provided by sergeants in their 30s and 40s telling these young people what it is that would be wise to do based on real experience and mature judgment. In contrast a 22 year old American platoon leader would have a mature platoon sergeant as his assistant and counselor.

- As a result of this system of manning, the IDF’s ground force is more unpredictable and volatile at the tactical (company) level than might be the case otherwise. The national government has a hard time knowing whether or not specific policies will be followed in the field. For example, the Israeli government’s policy in the present action in the Gaza Strip has been to avoid civilian casualties whenever possible. Based on personal experience of the behavior of IDF conscripts toward Palestinian civilians, I would say that the Israeli government has little control over what individual groups of these young Israeli soldiers may do in incidents like the one yesterday in which mortar fire was directed toward UN controlled school buildings.

In Beit Suhur outside Bethlehem, I have seen IDF troops shoot at Palestinian Christian women hanging out laundry in their gardens. This was done with tank coaxial machine guns from within a bermed up dirt fort a couple of hundred yards away, and evidently just for the fun of it. In Bethlehem a lieutenant told me that he would have had his men shoot me in the street during a demonstration that I happened to get caught in, but that he had not because he thought I might not be a Palestinian and that if I were not the incident would have caused him some trouble. I have seen a lot of things like that. One might say that in war, s–t happens. That is true, but such behavior is indicative of an army that is not well disciplined and not a completely reliably instrument of state policy. In my travels in the west Bank in March of 2008, it was noticeable that the behavior towards Palestinian civilians of IDF troops at roadblocks was reminiscent of that of any group of post-adolescents given guns and allowed to bully the helpless in order to look tough for each other. I think the IDF would be well advised to grow some real sergeants.

All in all, I think the IDF ground forces can best be described as specialized tools that reflect 20th century Zionist socialist and nationalist ideals, and which have military traditions that are in no way reflective of those of the United States. They can also be justly said to have been been fortunate in their enemies. The Jordanians gave them a run for their money in 1948-49. Hizbullah delivered a hint of the inherent limits in such a socio-military system in 2006 and now we are seeing whatever it is that we will see at Gaza. pl

UPDATE–(From Larry Johnson) The following courtesy of Jonathan Turley provides another illustration of one of the problems that afflicts the Israeli army.

A very disturbing story had emerged from Gaza after the shooting of a child. People are not only alarmed at the shooting of 13–year-old Iman al-Hams, but by the attitude and lack of remorse of an Israeli officer who killedher. When confronted by other soldiers, the officer said that he did not care if she was a child and would have killed her even if she was three under the standing orders given to soldiers in the campaign. Yet, the officer, identified only a Captain R, was charged with only minor offenses after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun’s magazine into Iman when she walked into a “security area” on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

The charges in the case are curious: illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions. What happened to murder? There certainly seems sufficient evidence to try the man on such a count and it is difficult to see why his identity is being protected.

A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers shows what unfolded with Iman walked towards an army post. The soldiers at least 100 yards from any soldier and, while a bomb is always feared in such situations, no one described her as a threat. She was identified as a “girl of about 10″ who was “scared to death.” Worse yet, the soldiers describe her as heading east – away from the army post and toward the refugee camp when she was shot. Captain R had to leave the post and pursue the girl to shoot her and later “confirm the kill” after emptying his magazine into the child.

The tape played on Israeli television is chilling. When Iman is spotted a soldier radios: “It’s a little girl. She’s running defensively eastward.”

Operations room: “Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?”

Watchtower: “A girl of about 10, she’s behind the embankment, scared to death.”

A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts.

The watchtower: “I think that one of the positions took her out.”

The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.

Captain R: “I and another soldier … are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill … Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her … I also confirmed the kill. Over.”

Doctors at Rafah’s hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times.

Every army in the world has committed such abuses. What is shocking is that the Israeli commanders appear willing to condone such horrific conduct.

  • LandOLincoln

    Teenagers with guns showing off for each other and shooting at anything that moves–especially if it can’t shoot back.

    So much for the fabled Israeli Army.

    Patrick Lang, do you know if it was always this way? I can remember watching the 1967 war live on television (and drooling over dashing Moshe Dayan like every other redblooded female of my acquaintance) but it seems to me those were some crack troops Israel was fielding, back then.

  • James

    The American military is a structured system.

    Get your head out of your ass!

  • Patrick Henry

    Thank you Col. Lang…always good to read an Article by You…and I feel Our Nation is sadly missing your Valuable Expertise and Input at some operational Level..considering the Crisis..

    You have a unique Bacground…making you well qualifed for a Balanced Approach to problem solving and Diplomacy…

    I am sure you well understand how dangerous and unstable things really are…

    Everything is rapidly going HOT..IMO

  • http://theheraclitanfire.blogspot.com/ Craig Della Penna

    This kind of real ‘red dirt’ information is invaluable.
    Thank you

  • LandOLincoln

    These days the U.S. Army–the one that Wes Clark and others spent so much time and sweat restoring to health and strength after the Vietnam debacle–is once again virtually in shambles, to the point where gangbangers and others with criminal records are being signed up.

    So yes, these days the U.S. Army–and Marine Corp as well–also consists largely of teenagers with guns showing off for each other and shooting at anything that moves–especially if it can’t shoot back.

    I heard some Marines testifying to that fact in the new Winter Soldier hearings just a month or so ago.

    & why is it that you childish rightwingnuts are so, well, childish? Everything we do is right and perfect just because it’s us doing it?

    Grow up.

  • Butch Zero

    How long can the Israeli military sustain, then, as a formal entity?

    And if the Israeli military fails, will Israel necessarily fail as a state?

    (At times, it seems the IDF IS Israel.)

  • TeakwoodKite

    Interesting about the NCO core.

  • Mandelay

    Wow. I never expected to read anything like this. Thank you for giving us this real world picture of what goes on … and why. What a waste.

  • Butch Zero

    I can’t help but think “how the hell did Bush get suckered into this?”

  • smitty

    i guess we finally know why the Israelis have been so thoroughly defeated in every conflict that they have been forced to fight since 1948. They have such an inept and untrained army. Yes they are the bullies of the Middle East and should be ashamed that they are not willing to allow themselves to be shot at and attacked without responding. I know that the USA would certainly be willing to show such restraint. And so would most of the other countries of the world, would they not?

  • TeakwoodKite

    If troops are attacking cities, their strength will be exhausted,” the Chinese strategist Sun Tzu wrote about 2,500 years ago. “The worst policy is to attack cities. Attack cities only when there is no alternative.”

    .

  • Patrick Henry

    The Germans found that out ..I dont think Hitler reead any Sun Tzu…

    But then…War hass never Been aout LOGIC..it has been about killing…

  • J

    Bush didn’t get suckered, the Bush-Cheney admin. has been pushing Israel into doing this for months (before they are no longer in command). This operation’s planning is over a year old, in other words D.C. has known about it for over a year. And napalm and cluster bombs were furnished/flown to Israel just before they began their military carnage against Gaza inhabitants.

    This is just one more War Crime that Bush and Cheney are a party to.

    Sadly, we’ll never see the Israeli politicans, their military high command, nor Bush and Cheney tried for their War Crimes against Gaza.

  • jbjd

    To All Military Personnel and Everyone Who Loves Them:

    I posted a template of the Military Complaint v. Barack Obama on my blog. Please feel free to use this. Copy the language exactly, filling in only the information specific to your Complaint, including the names of the military Plaintiffs and their identifying facts; and the federal court in which the Complaint will be filed. Any questions, post a comment.

    As soon as I receive confirmation anyone has filed this, I will post the filed Complaint.
    http://jbjd.wordpress.com/

  • Butch Zero

    i guess we finally know why the Israelis have been so thoroughly defeated in every conflict that they have been forced to fight since 1948. They have such an inept and untrained army

    Col Lang said Israel has been fortunate in it’s enemies.

    Meaning, if they had faced formidable opponents, gaming them, they’d fail.

    And wouldn’t someone trained to evaluate the military capabilities of various nations, including Israel, know?

    The IDF appears the loose cannon, unstable and unsustainable, ready to blow.

    And in no way shape or form should the US president have been allowed NEAR them, politically, offering the unequivical support he, and his administration, did.

  • LandOLincoln

    This operation’s planning is over a year old, in other words D.C. has known about it for over a year.

    So that’s how Biden knew this was coming, since it seems pretty plain this is what he was talking about back in…October, wasn’t it?

    Or is there something even worse in the pipeline?

  • Patrick Henry

    Ever Hear of the USS LIBERTY Smitty…

    I am sure you will be Happy to go live in a Concentration Camp on on a Reservation…and be Thankful everyday for the generous Kindness of Those who Occupy You…

    If anyone should understand what its like to Live in a Polish Ghetto…its the Israelis..

  • Butch Zero

    I dont mean just this operation, but the whole Cheney/Bush-Israeli neocon alliance.

    How many from this adminstration were convicted for, or are under investigation for, treason?

    (Or spying for Israel, that is, Feith and Franklin for starters, right?)

    I keep remembering that time Sharon wanted to assassinate Arafat, with Rice publicly warning Israel not to, Bush came to Sharon’s defense, telling Americans they ought to listen to the brilliant general.

  • truthtelling007

    and master sun said, “the finest militarists undermine alliances, then plots”

  • J

    Declaration from Professor Richard Falk, Special Rapporteur from the United Nations

    Professor Richard Falk is the Special Spokesman for the Human Rights Council of the United Nations for the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Professor of Law Emeritus at Princeton University, USA.

    Professor Richard Falk was on the 15th of December denied entry into Israel. He then was extradited by Israeli authorities to Switzerland.

    Professor Richard Falk is himself Jewish.

    ——————————————————————————–

    The Israeli air raids on the Gaza Strip represent severe and massive violations of international human rights such as defined in the Geneva Convention, regarding the obligations of the occupying power as for the demands of the laws of war.

    These violations include:

    Collective punishment; all 1.5 million persons who live in the congested Gaza Strip are being punished by the actions of a few militants.

    Targeting civilians – the air strikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most congested areas of land in the world, certainly the most densely populated area of the Middle East.

    Disproportionate military response – the air strikes not only destroyed all the police and security facilities of the elected government of Gaza but also killed and injured hundreds of civilians, at least one confirmed attack hit groups of students who were trying to find transport from home to college.

    The previous Israeli actions, specifically the complete sealing of entry and exit to and from the Gaza Strip has caused severe shortages of medical supplies and fuel (as well as food), resulting in the inability of ambulances to meet the wounded, the inability of hospitals to provide appropriate care or equipment needed for the wounded and the inability of doctors and other health workers in the besieged Gaza to treat the victims properly.

    Certainly the attacks with rockets against civilian targets in Israel are illegal. But such illegality does not give Israel the right, does not justify as an occupying power or as a sovereign state, to violate international humanitarian law and commit war crimes against humanity as a response. I note that the escalation of the Israeli military assaults on civilians has not made Israelis more secure, like the one Israeli killed today after triggering the Israeli violence is the first in more than a year.

    Israel also ignored the recent diplomatic initiatives to restore the Hamas truce or ceasefire since its expiration on 26 December.

    The Israeli air strikes today, and the catastrophic human cost that resulted, confronts those countries that were and remain accomplices, both directly and indirectly, of the Israeli violations of international law. This complicity includes those countries consciously providing military equipment, including war planes and missiles used in these unlawful attacks, as well as those countries that supported and participated in the siege of Gaza which in itself has caused a humanitarian catastrophe.

    A reminder to all Member States of the United Nations that the UN continues to be tied to an independent obligation to protect all civilians who are faced with massive violations of international humanitarian law – without mattering which country may be responsible for such violations. I appeal to all Member States, as well as responsible and relevant bodies of the United Nations system, to move forward on an emergency not only to condemn the serious violations of Israel but also to develop new approaches to provide real protection to the Palestinian people.

    01/January / 2009

    Richard Falk

  • Strawberrybitch

    More like scary, Teak. Most of my husband’s Lts and Cpts were nice enough fellows, but they just tended to get in the way when it came to busting track or getting things done. One guy almost took his tank over a cliff but was saved at the last minute by a lowly E-2. They needed to be told to ‘go to do officer stuff, sir’ and leave the heavy lifting to him. NCOs are the spine of a military. They’re babysitters, mommies, big brothers, ballbusters, and taskmasters. This is a very informative piece.

  • Peggy Sue

    Hummmm. Am I picking up a tad of sarcasm, Smitty? LOL.

    And, of course, we know what the US response was [with a majority of civilian support] after 9/11.

    I don’t remember many flowers strewn through the streets. We wanted the crime against us avenged, regardless of who, what or where.

    Yet, we’re quick to demand a different standard outside our own borders.

    Should we look for peace? Of course. Should we be so quick to judge?

    I don’t think so.

  • truthtelling007

    neither did Bush, Cheney, or Rumsy.

  • NoBamaNoWay

    can we assume that for Mr. Lang’s next installment, he’s going to rip the Palestinians a new one, like he just did the israelis? yeah, probably not.

  • truthtelling007

    such a detailed and in depth analysis by you…must be a Rhodes Scholar.

  • LandOLincoln

    The Palestinians don’t have an army; the Israelis do–or they used to.

  • CG

    ‘Unknown group’ in Lebanon launches rockets at Israel http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/08/israel.rockets/index.html

  • CG
  • truthtelling007

    what about shiny badges or uniforms?

  • http://N/A breeze

    UN: Israel kills driver on aid mission to Gaza

    Jan. 8, 2009
    AP
    GAZA CITY,
    Gaza Strip

    – A U.N. official in the Gaza Strip says Israeli forces have fired on a truck on a U.N. aid mission and killed the driver.

    U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna says the incident took place during a lull declared by Israel to allow humanitarian aid to enter the territory.

    He says the U.N. coordinated the delivery with Israel, and the vehicle and was marked with a U.N. flag and insignia when it was shot in northern Gaza.

    The Israeli army said it was investigating.

    Earlier this week, an Israeli attack near a U.N. school killed more than 30 people. At the time, Israel said it opened fire after militants hiding in the crowd shot mortar shells at Israeli troops.

  • don tufts

    how true,im the son of a west point grad that retired as a one star.when i graduated from collage and my rotc program and was commissioned as a brand new butterbar my dad told me the following”congradulations now your officially a officer and a gentleman and officially dumb as dirt so when you are assigned your first command find your top kick ,keep you mouth shut and your eyes open and stay glued to him and his advice and you will turn into a competent officer smart enough to command troops”.better advice was never given and and it made me a better junior officer.

  • don tufts

    and you have what proof that the idf is using either cluster or napalm in gaza?oh btw the grads that hamas is firing on isreal are anti personel in nature not anti armor nor are the guided.russsian doctrine on their use was grid fire of large numbers into our staging areas and in back of our mlr to isolate our front lines from support .thank god we never had to fight that war.

  • mountainaires

    Picking Up The Pieces In Gaza

    By Alice Gray

    Israel’s leaders would do well to remember that terrorism has not only a physical but also a psychological infrastructure, an infrastructure that they are building even as they destroy tunnels and rocket launching platforms; that desperate people will resort to desperate measures, that suffering breeds hatred and hatred breeds revenge.
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21671.htm

    UN Says No Hamas Fighters Were in Bombed Gaza School:

    United Nations investigators say they have uncovered no evidence to support a claim by the Israeli military that Hamas fighters were holed up in a Gaza school, prompting a deadly attack by Israeli forces that killed 40 civilians, many of them children.
    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html

    ===

    UN: Israel admits rocket fire was not from within school: -

    Israel told foreign diplomats Wednesday that Palestinian militants had not fired rockets from within a United Nations’ school, a UN official said. Israeli military officials said on Tuesday that militants had fired rockets from within the school, and that attack provoked Israeli artillery fire which landed near the school and killed more than 40 Palestinians in the Jabalia refugee camp, many of whom were seeking refuge from fighting.
    http://tinyurl.com/8lgn93

    Death toll in Gaza attack passes 700, including 220 children:

    The attack unleashed on December 27 has killed 702 people and wounded more than 3100, the head of Gaza emergency services, Moawiya Hassanein, told Agence France-Presse.
    http://tinyurl.com/a2qan9

    ===

    Israel strike kills up to 60 members of one family:

    Some of the Samouni family died from shrapnel wounds and others from being crushed by falling masonry.
    http://tinyurl.com/a6uwq8

    ===

    Israel Attacks Schools, Ambulances:

    “There’s nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorised and traumatised,” said John Ging, the UN head in Gaza. He blamed the international community for allowing the violence to continue.
    http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45313

    Jerusalem – Israel told foreign diplomats Wednesday that Palestinian militants had not fired rockets from within a United Nations’ school, a UN official said. Israeli military officials said on Tuesday that militants had fired rockets from within the school, and that attack provoked Israeli artillery fire which landed near the school and killed more than 40 Palestinians in the Jabalia refugee camp, many of whom were seeking refuge from fighting.

    “The Israeli army is briefing diplomats privately that the militant fire from Jablia yesterday did not come from inside the UNRWA school compound, but from the outside,” said Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the UN Relief Works Agency, which aids Palestinian refugees.

    Gunness said the claim was a “major allegation against a neutral UN development agency” which “within a day turns out to be completely baseless.”

    UNRWA’s Gaza director, John Ging, had said earlier that to the best of his knowledge no rockets were fired from within the school.

    An Israeli military spokesman declined comment.

    http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/249400,extra-un-israel-admits-rocket-fire-was-not-from-within-school.html

  • mountainaires

    UN Says No Hamas Fighters Were in Bombed Gaza School:

    United Nations investigators say they have uncovered no evidence to support a claim by the Israeli military that Hamas fighters were holed up in a Gaza school, prompting a deadly attack by Israeli forces that killed 40 civilians, many of them children.
    http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html

    ===

    UN: Israel admits rocket fire was not from within school: -

    Israel told foreign diplomats Wednesday that Palestinian militants had not fired rockets from within a United Nations’ school, a UN official said. Israeli military officials said on Tuesday that militants had fired rockets from within the school, and that attack provoked Israeli artillery fire which landed near the school and killed more than 40 Palestinians in the Jabalia refugee camp, many of whom were seeking refuge from fighting.
    http://tinyurl.com/8lgn93

    ===

    Death toll in Gaza attack passes 700, including 220 children:

    The attack unleashed on December 27 has killed 702 people and wounded more than 3100, the head of Gaza emergency services, Moawiya Hassanein, told Agence France-Presse.
    http://tinyurl.com/a2qan9

    ===

    Israel Attacks Schools, Ambulances:

    There’s nowhere safe in Gaza. Everyone here is terrorised and traumatised,” said John Ging, the UN head in Gaza. He blamed the international community for allowing the violence to continue.
    http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45313

  • stodgie

    yup, fair is fair. let’s now discuss hamas and how they shoot those missles. snark here, and i am sure they try to just hit buildings with no one in them. they are so well trained, hamas i mean. yup, let’s rip israel a new one blaming, criticizing and whining al the damn time. give hamas a pass. that’s right because they are so humanitarian. HELL NO!

    i am getting sick of this. i don’t support either side here and agree with most of larry’s comments. but this constant bashing without commenting on the other side’s faults is TOO DAMN MUCH!

  • stodgie

    i am not going to thank you for this article. i’ll thank you when you present both sides and the faults for each. this one side bashing is getting to be too dang much for me.

    you know hamas is at fault. they aren’t trained. they are evil cruel people who don’t care who they destroy. and guess what they despise ameicans also. they’d just as soon shoot those missles at your hometown. so get off this false bull. sure israel has made major mistakes and bush was a dang fool in his foreign policy. but the extremist in the middle east hate us. deal with that and stop excusing it.

  • stodgie

    why DON’T YOU BLAME HAMAS? I KNOW THAT IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO UNCIVIL OF ME TO THINK THAT BUT YOUR ONE SIDED CONTINTUED RANTS ALL THE WHILE IGNORING HAMAS AND WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IS BEYOND INSULTING TO ANYONE WITH INTELLIGENCE WHO READS THIS.

  • stodgie

    landolincoln????? no army huh? you have to be kidding. that is your excuse for giving hamas a pass. why don’t you watch tv a little and see how they are showing the military training for hamas. by the way in the next attack here, i want to hear what you have to say.

    and i don’t support what israel is doing. i support faulting both sides and not giving hamas a pass. that is disgusting.

  • stodgie

    tell you what butch, loose cannon, unstable also describes hamas and all the extremist groups in the middle east who also despise americans. maybe they hate so more due to our support of israel but they’d hate you anyway. so deal with that.

  • Butch Zero

    Hamas isn’t risking an organized state, the point is missed entirely by those trying to defend Israel’s actions.

    Maybe you don’t understand.

    I respect your opinion, but I cannot justify Israel’s actions.

    Israel took on more than it can handle.

    What made them think they were the equivalent of the US, and the US military?

    They’re not.

    It’s laughable.

  • Butch Zero

    You can buy them at the five and dime.

    I have a yamaha keyboard, I tried the preprogrammed settings, the other day, as I felt like Elton John. (!)

    So I added my keyboard part to the preprogrammed tracks, and damn if it didn’t sound good!

    But I’m not Elton John, and really, my playing, there, wasn’t even good.

    But I understand this about myself, I dont’ pretend I’m as talented as Elton, the technology of the keyboard put me at home plate, I didn’t EARN it.

    Technological advances in weaponary made some countries think we were all equal, too, we’re not, it’s just another tool.

  • Butch Zero

    No one is giving Hamas a pass.

    We, in America, dont’ go around beating up those who annoy us, despite Bush.

    For a reason.

    It’s about strategy, in the end, about intelligence.

    If the idea, in part, of war is to destabilize your enemies military, throw it into chaos, I would say Israel has been gamed.

  • stodgie

    excuse me butch zero, but hamas is risking an organized state. you know the second state that they claim to want while sending those missles.

    i have no problem with taking israel to task. i do also. i have major issues with this excusing of hamas and the extremists. and PLEASE DON’T TRY AND SEPARATE THE PEOPLE FROM HAMAS. you can’t. there is also NO EXCUSE FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

  • stodgie

    when you continually attack israel and then ignore hamas, hell yes you are giving them a pass. duh!

  • stodgie

    so where does hamas get those missles? iran, syria. that is some five and dime they have.

  • Butch Zero

    You know, the worst case scenario would be for the world to find the Israeli neocons deliberately planned to eradicate the GAZA population, even the ME Arab population — a planned genocide to perserve the “Jewish homeland.”

    I comfort myself with knowing this isn’t the case, so it could always be worse.

    At least they’re not crazy like Hitler, and Nazis.

  • stodgie

    well there are those extremists in the middle east who still today publicly say they want to destroy israel and drive them into the sea. that type of language is so unfortunate. it does give the neocons in israel ammo for sure.

    the point i am making is that the other side is at fault also and you cannnot separate the people from hamas.

  • Mary

    Not to mention that Netanyahu and his fellow Israeli neocons provided the Bush/Cheney administration with much of the manipulated intel they used to take us falsely into Iraq.

    Google “A Clean Break.”

    It is a document written by our neocons for Benjamin Netanyahu re how to strengthen Israel’s position in the Middle East. Step one: Invade Iraq, topple Saddam Hussein. Step two: Drive the Palestinians out of Gaza, topple or weaken the PLO, secretly build and support settlements on Palestinian land.

    If I recall, Iran was next.

    The whole document was written for Netanyahu by our PNAC neocons when he was Isreal’s prime minister.

    They mean to regain that office in February.

  • Mary

    Proof is in photographs taken by United Nations relief workers of the stacks of white phosphorous bombs being loaded into Israeli trucks for shipment into Gaza.

  • Mary

    How do you justify the complete destruction of Lebanon by an impulsive and undisciplined IDF, stodgie?

    There’s a pattern here, that even YOU can not deny.

  • stodgie

    mary, the pattern i see here is your continied inane posts.

  • Mary

    On the black market, stodgie. They’re Russian-made.

    Hamas is a SUNNI organization (ie, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt). It is not supported by Shiite Iran, even if the Israeli propaganda tells you it is.

    THEY DON’T ALL LOOK ALIKE, darlin.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Thank you stodgie…So true.

  • Mary

    Stodgie, dear, mountain posts factual articles.

    It is YOUR posts that are one-side rants.

    Capital letters means you’ve lost it and are screaming instead.

    That IS uncivil, dear.

  • stodgie

    don’t call me darling or anything but my screen name. got it! and your pathetic pandering does nothing for the good people of gaza. your spew your idiotic comments throwing a few facts from time to time wrapped up in your pathetic one sided excuse for a post.

  • stodgie

    mary i am not your dear! use my screen name and stop trying to act like you know anything. clearly you don’t.

  • Mary

    The article PROVES that the IDF was lying when they said the rockets came from inside the UN refugee school, which is exactly what the UN volunteers said to begin with.

    What part of that can you not understand or accept?

  • stodgie

    mary, you are a fool and know nothing about this whole fiasco in the middle east. you run around crying for the people of gaza condemning israel all the time. that tells me you are a one sided excuser for hamas. you can’t separate them from the people as they voted them in. deal with that mary. that is reality. i know of course that realiy is hard for you.

  • Mary

    Butch Zero,

    Google “A Clean Break,” a document written by our own neocons (Richard Perle, etc) for Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli neocon prime minister at the time.

    It describes steps to make Israel “more secure:”
    1. Topple Saddam Hussein, invade Iraq.
    2. Eliminate the PLO/Fatah/Hamas
    3. Quietly build illegal settlements on the West Bank to secure the land
    4. Pressure Palestinians to leave.

    It mentions Iran as the next step.

    Our own PNAC neocons wrote the document.

  • stodgie

    hamas is a terrorist organization sunni or baptist. go do some homework and clear the the trash out of your head.

  • Mary

    Yes. Iran.

    The neocons in America and in Israel have had this planned for years.

    It’s why they’re supporting Netanyahu in the February elections in Israel.

  • Mary

    It’s obvious that you’re poorly informed about the Lebanon invasion by Israel, Stodgie.

    Best get to reading about how Israel invaded a young democracy, bombed and destroyed the infastructure, used white phosphorous on civilians, and then came out with their tails between their legs, making Hezbollah even stronger.

    While you’re at it, find out why the Bush administration blocked a ceasefire at the Security Council, while the whole world called for one.

    Get back to us with some facts whenever you’re ready.

  • Mary

    Translation: I didn’t know the weapons were from Russia. I didn’t know the difference between Shiites and Sunnis, or Hezbollah and Hamas.

    I just regurgitated the neocon propanda line, without further study.

    But thank you, Mary for helping me understand.

    You’re welcome, stodgie.

  • stodgie

    mary i am very well informed on the whole situation. i can read and comprehend. i also do critical thinking where i understand there are two sides to the story which is more than you appear capable of doing. shame on you!

  • Mary

    Stop posting in all caps, stodgie.

    It makes you look childish and hysterical.

  • stodgie

    ahh poor ole mary name calling, trying to diminish and look superior to the rest of the world. sorry you failed and look like a silly excuser

  • Mary

    Give it up, stodgie.

    You’re coming off irrationally today.

    The IDF lied to cover their crimes. The UN called them on it. The Israeli government admitted the UN was correct.

    That IS reality.

  • stodgie

    Mary with a capital, people laugh at you on here. your posts are irrational and you try and throw in a few facts as you if you know all that. i almost feel sorry for you. that is reality.

  • Mary

    Bottom line, stodgie: The IDF lied about the UN refugee camp. Israel has now admitted it wasn’t true.

    You’re entitled to your own opinion, stodgie, but not to your own facts.

  • stodgie

    Mary, i’ll repeat for the 150th time and i’ll even write slowly for you. you are bringing up a false herring as if i was talking about the idf and un refugee camps. i never was. you brought it in as if you and i had a debate. we didn’t and don’t.

    see what i mean about throwing in a few facts as if you know what you are talking about on here. pathetic, Mary. shaking head and feeling sorry for you.

  • Mary

    Good grief, Stodgie.

    You just proved my point.

    Israel admitted the IDF was wrong, and the UN relief workers were right.

    That has nothing to do with Hamas.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Yes and she has the nerve to complain about others calling people names. Wow.

  • Mary

    You trashed Mountain for the article about the IDF and UN refugee camps, trying to blame Hamas for same.

    I corrected you.

    We all saw it, stodgie.

    Mountain was completely correct, and provided a factual link to prove it.

    Thank you, Mountain. We’re much impressed by your factual posts.

  • stodgie

    give it up mary. i never argued with you about this issue. you are arguing with yourself trying to prove that you all that and know more than the mere mortals who post here. i feel sorry for you.

  • Mary

    From the poster who melts down daily with lots of profanities at other posters.

    Right, OIAF.

  • stodgie

    Mary, you are full of xxxx! you didn’t see anything. you fly false flags and people feel sorry for you while they aren’t laughing at you.

  • stodgie

    obama is a fraud, i was posting about the article that is the basis of this discussion and also about the one sided approach mountainaires takes. Mary with a capital M then get into it by misquoting, misunderstanding and in general looking silly and poorly informed. she certainly doesn’t understand context.

  • Mary

    Yes, Mandelay.

    There are many, many ex-IDF members who have come out publicly, admitting there is little discipline, and that the arbitrary murder of Palestinians happens daily.

    This is no surprise to those who read international press with video interviews of these former IDF members who are speaking out against what they call “immoral slaughter of civilians.”

    Brave young men, they are, for telling the truth.

  • Mary

    FYI: Those videos are on BBC for any and all to watch.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    stodgie…on every single thread Mary goes on her Anti-Israel rants the posters inform her that her facts are inaccurate and she doesn’t know her azz from her elbow about this situation. You are not the only one. If you consider this a “meltdown” Mary then you might explore mental health care.

  • Mary

    Then write us a paragraph describing what happened in Lebanon and why.

    But give us that “two sides of every story” where it includes how the Lebanese government and people felt about that invasion, and not just Israel’s side.

    Show me the “two sides.”

  • stodgie

    it is rather bizarre to get on a thread that is all but over and then post to folks who aren’t even on here now. of course we all do that from time to time but all the time. i can’t help but think it is bizarre. most of us understand that israel has warts and a lot of faults. there is no argument there. but the excusers for everything are beyond my comprehension.

  • Mary

    Bravo, Mr. Falk!!!

    International law applies to all, including Israel.

    Thank you for posting this article, J.

  • stodgie

    Mary go find out for yourself. take some responsibility for heaven’s sake.

  • stodgie

    again mary, i come to the conclusion you don’t use rational thinking skills. we are discussing hamas. duh!

  • Mary

    You argued with Mountain, and did so deceitfully.

    I corrected you by defending Mountain.

    The IDF lied about the refugee camp bombing. Israel has admitted it.

    Posting a screaming response in all caps to Mountain didn’t change that.

    Due respect.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Exactly. It’s really simple. If the Hamas nuts don’t want civilian casualties then they themselves can change their charter from demanding the “obliteration of Israel” and put down the rockets. Yawn. The far left wing nuts want to excuse Hamas. Quite frankly, that’s just idiotic and terrifying.

  • stodgie

    no mary, you are a rather silly person who tries to argue about issues where you insert info regarding other areas of discussion all the while ignoring the ugly truths. i highly recommend you get some medical help. i am not being sarcastic here.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    stodgie…”Pearls before swine?”

    Give it up. And yes, the medical help thing is a good suggestion by you. I think most here would concur.

  • stodgie

    yup, it reminds of trying to argue with uncle joe at christmas dinner when he has had too much eggnog.

    anywork duty calls and i have to depart.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    LMAO stodgie…Have a great day.

  • Butch Zero

    I do seperate the people from Hamas, just as I seperate the Israelis from their leaders.

    At the very least, I hope people seperate me, as an American, from Bush and Cheney.

  • Butch Zero

    FOR him?

    Ah, I thought people like Netanyahu wrote for Perle.

  • don tufts

    if the idf was using wp or napalm in crowded urban enviorments the whole city would be on fire as its almost impossible to put out .so make sure what your talking about.

  • NCgirl

    Thank you so much for this information Patrick. So the IDF troops are 19-22yr olds with guns and heavy artillery with 20yr olds telling them what to do. That is beyond disturbing. The human brain doesn’t fully develop the ability to make “good” decisions until the mid-twenties. Israel basically has “children” making life and death decisions. So much for the crack Israeli army I have always heard about.

  • http://ezinearticles.com/?Three-Basic-Parenting-Styles&id=744499 Northwest rain

    The murder of that young school girl — I followed that case and the disturbing attitude of the bastard that murdered her. I know that similar situations happened in Vietnam. It is disturbing because the ease that some individuals can overcome the taboo to kill fellow humans — and treat these humans kill objects. What is worse is that this individual will return to “normal” life — and he could be a ticking time bomb — perhaps another Tim McVeigh?

    The point of this girl’s murder was that she was LEAVING — going away — and it was clear that she was fearful.

    Both sides, in this long conflict, have learned to treat the other as non humans — and both have lost a bit of their own humanity.

    Without intervention by a stronger force this sort of remorseless killing will go on by both sides.

    Then there is the case of the deliberate attack of a US Naval ship by the Israelis. They lied and spun a web of deceit — but they knew exactly what they were doing.

    On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

    http://www.gtr5.com/

  • KmX

    Israel is the only country in the world who goes to war and let its enemies know when they will strike. Israel have targeted strikes from the point of origin of the rockets. PAlestinians target anyone.

    Do the Palestinians call up the IDF and say when they will fire their rockets? My greatest fear is that they will bring that same type of violence to the streets of Europe and Here.

  • NCgirl

    Gen. Sun Tzu was a brilliant man. “The Art of War” should be read by everyone.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Liveblogging the Gaza War from the IDF:

    http://muqata.blogspot.com

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    You mean Iran that supports Hamas and Hezbollah, lied about its enrichment program, repeatedly says it will wipe Israel off the map and armed the insurgents who killed our soldiers fighting in Iraq? That Iran? Shyeah.

  • LandOLincoln

    Good on you, Mary. ROFL!

    Stodgie and her pal OIAF are quite the pair, aren’t they?

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Do the Palestinians call up the IDF and say when they will fire their rockets?

    Well, all Israelis serve in the military, so it’s ok to attack civilians, even if they’re taking the bus to elementary school in the morning.

    And those tunnels? They’re defensive — ask Rabbit Bait. Ever wonder why they can build tunnels but not bomb shelters? Yet, Israel is the aggressor, because they evacuate their women and children.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Funny, seeing as the Palestinians sided with the Nazis while they were ruled by the Ottoman Empire.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    That’s right, dumbass, our government is just like the Nazis in WWII. Kill yourself now.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    They are united in cause by a fundamentalist ideology, something you seem very opposed to when it’s Jude-Christian v. Islamic.

  • ford

    Yes, let’s just blame Israel for everything…
    I mean Bush is leaving so now all problems will be blamed on Global Warming or Israel..I am glad we decided this just before Bush has left office, or we would be forced to blame him for all of BO’s soon to be made mis steps..lord knows the MSM isn’t planning on holding BO responsible for anything, least of all his positions on Israel..what day is it???

    The “habitrail for humanity” re: tunnels used to bring weapons into the Gaza Strip and then lobbed @ Israel has nothing to do with this problem, and the check is in the mail.
    You logic defines comprehension.
    Are the tapes we are told are the Palestinians current, or old…or are they actually tapes of the nursing home in Israel that was bombed.

    New Flash…WAR SUCKS, most soldiers are under 24…please read more, and the news that the IDF is young won’t shock your delicate ears.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    I would call suicide bombers and Qassam rockets more than an “annoyance.”

  • thatsnottheissue

    Mary,
    You are brilliant. :)

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Israel traded 93% of its territorial gains following the 1967 war with their Arab neighbors for peace. If you read up on your history, there already exists a “Palestinian state.” It’s called Jordan. Israel wants to coexist peacefully with their neighbors as a Jewish homeland preventing another Holocaust.

  • LandOLincoln

    Stodgie, it’s clearly a waste of time trying to reason with you or OIAF, because you are operating from a place of sheer emotion, and spout nothing but platitudes and hysterical accusations.

    My point was that Israel has an official, standing army. So do we (and neither army is in very good shape these days, thanks to the Neocons in both countries).

    The Palestinians don’t have an official, standing army–hell’s bells, these days they don’t even have a country. Hamas is not the Palestinian Army. It’s a guerilla “army” (small a) of Sunni Muslim Wahabbists funded large by our good, good pals Saudi Arabia, who are also Sunni Muslim Wahabbists .

    Lebanon doesn’t have a standing army either; Hezbollah, like Hamas, is a guerilla “army,” this time of Shi’a Muslims. Hezbollah is funded by Iran; the Iranians are also Shi’a.

    We clear on the concept now?

  • Mary

    Perle and Wolfowitz were at a Jewish “think tank” before being in Bush’s administration. They were helping Netanyahu convince Israeli’s to elect him…providing him with political tactics to present himself as the biggest, baddest leader the Israeli people ever needed.

    Some of the comments in this paper:

    “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm”

    This neo-conservative-authored paper presented in 1996 to Benjamin Netanyahu offered a gold strategy to provide ‘the nation (Israel) the room to engage every possible energy in rebuilding Zionism. “Our claim to the land–to which we have clung for hope for 2000 years–is blessed and noble,” the authors proclaimed. “Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them” through means including “resstablishing the PRINCIPLE OF PREEMPTION, rather than retaliation alone.”

    The paper bemoans the status quo where Israel is asked to follow European and American prescriptions for peace and stability……..Thus, to achieve ‘a clean break’ (from US influence), the security map of the Middle East would have to be significantly re-built to assign Israel an APEX ROLE.

    The removal of Saddam Hussein, enunciated to be a key goal in “Clean Break,” was to be the FIRST phase of this new strategy.

    In “A Clean Break,” the authors called for signaling to the Syrians that their “territory is not immune’ to attacks by Israeli PROXY forces. (Thus, the Israeli financing of what the Lebanese called “terrorists” to disrupt that new democracy, and Israeli financing of Kurdish “terrorist groups” to disrupt the newly elected Shiite government in Iraq.”

    Read the document. It’s stunning, how Israel has led the U.S. by the nose to achieve their own ends, providing exaggerated intel to Douglas Feith to enable the invasion of Iraq based on “WMD’s,” all of which was untrue.

    First Iraq. Then Syria, in Lebanon. And now, pushing Palestinians out by characterizing them as “terrorists” so Americans will support same. All the while, they’re building more and more illegal settlements in the West Bank and ignoring 64 United Nations Resolutions calling them out for it.

    This was the plan.

    Netanyahu hopes to win the upcoming February elections, so he can complete the plan: Iran.

    And our neocons are supporting him.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Nothing emotional about it. Like I said…I am Pro Israel and your propaganda and nonsense make no difference to me. Funny, but I have spent time on other blogs, with people with healthy mental outlooks, and some brains, and they feel the way I do. It’s my right to feel that way and your are not entitled to tell me I am wrong. What someone like you says has no bearing on truth. I have stated my position. I don’t get where you are saying I am being emotional. I am simply stating you are wrong. I stand by Israel and always will. Guess what? It’s AMERICA and I have that right. Get over yourself and your bullying.

    We clear now?

  • Mary

    Bravo, Butch!!

    You’re absolutely correct.

    Did you hear the latest? The IDF shot and killed a United Nations truck driver at the border crossing, who was bringing a truck full of medical supplies into Gaza. They then immediately closed that border, giving no explanation for their actions, and denying any more UN trucks into Gaza at that crossing.

    I guess if you’re “God’s chosen people” you can do whatever you want, huh?

    Joshua sure did……slaughtered every living thing in Jericho—men, women , children, animals—-because his God said he could.

    And this 10 year old girl shot 17 times?

    Good God.

    It is time the world read Israel the riot act. Period.

  • Evolve and Learn

    Me thinks we are being sold a new narrative, my friends. Just be careful and listen.

    Evolve and learn a new why of thinking.

  • LandOLincoln

    Stodgie and OIAF, I think you two girls should run along now and play somewhere else.

    The grownups are trying to have a discussion, and you children keep interrupting. It’s very rude. Didn’t your mommies teach you any manners?

  • Mary

    Muchas gracias.

    Beware Israeli propaganda spouted by poorly informed, emotional ranters.

    They are the exact dupes the Israeli propaganda machine hoped to convince. That, too, was part of the plan in “A Clean Break.”

    Feith, Wolfowitz, and Perle are laughing at them for being so easily led.

  • ford

    Is the operative word here”sold” a new narrative?

    It would be better to read the history of Israel, then work you way forward.

  • Mary

    Looka here, folks: A claim that Palestinians should move to Jordan and leave all the rest for the “Jewish homeland.”

    Good GAWD, Americans are ignorant.

  • Diana L. C.

    I read these posts because I am so saddened by what has been happening in Gaza, just as I have read articles about all the heartbreaking events in the world for as long as I can remember. I read them to try to understand the reasons for always resorting to such horrible violence. The story about the little girl makes me hang my head in shame that I am a human.

    There is just still something in the human makeup that makes some of our species violent. I could not get through the comments by Mary and stodgie because I felt that if they, too, each had an idea of where the other was, more violence would have broken out.

    I appreciated the post because I had no information at all about how the IDF is organized. It was helpful for me to know that as it does aid in knowing more about the workings of the situation.

    The recent questions about Lebanon and Israel and about Gaza and Israel still confuse me because I can not find a way ever to “take sides.” I am only on the side of the many, many innocent children and animals who suffer on both sides.

    We have just come away from our Christian-based holiday celebrating the birth of the Christ, who in the story was heralded as bringing peace on earth. I always send out cards during the holiday with the lion and the lamb as my recognition of the Lion of Judah and the Lamb of God and because of the wonderful passages in the Hewbrew Bible (or Old Testament) of the lion (or wolf) and the lamb lying down together in peace.

    I will go to my grave never knowing a peacful earth. But I will never give up praying for it.

    Information is good if it is used to find ways to achieve peace. People wanting to be right about the side they have taken do not advance peace.

  • Strawberrybitch

    Yeah, and they know the minute they try anything, they’ll be turned into a shiney new parking lot. Damn, you’re obtuse. No one is going to “NUKE” Israel. Grow up.

  • Pennsylvania Red

    Mary, you commented last night that Lebanon is not a democracy – and you were wrong.

    You further stated that Israel “obliterated Lebanon” – again you were wrong.

    When Israel invaded Lebanon, it was in response to hostile action by the PLO, and Lebanon was already under military occupation by Syria.

    Here is a repost from last night:
    Joe Biden’s scalp hurts | 2009-01-07 19:40:23

    Lebanon is still a democracy. If the Lebanese have experienced a loss of autonomy or erosion of native culture, it might have something to do with The Syrian occupation.

    Syrian occupation employed a wide range of policy means to transform Lebanon into a “client state” and a Syrian political satellite. By means of military control and political penetration, media repression and alien colonization, Lebanon has lost its independence. Under foreign rule within the matrix of a foreign-manipulated police state, the Lebanese suffer from Arabization and Syrianization that deny the people, especially the Maronite Christians, their freedom and dignity. Many have been forced into exile across the countries and continents of the Lebanese diaspora.

    My ex’s family was part of the Lebanese diaspora.
    His dad foresaw the imminent civil war and got his family out just in time. That was the early 1970s. Ex’s Dad had good timing, look what his family missed:

    Central to the atmosphere of fear that enveloped Lebanon was the practice of kidnapping and arrest of Lebanese citizens, the use of torture against them, and often their virtual disappearance that included, unknown to their families, removal to the Mezza and Palmyra prisons in Syria.

    And you’re just plain wrong about Israel “obliterating” the country. My former cousins-in-law repatriated to Lebanon a few years ago because they had just had children and wanted to raise the kids in their homeland. They came back to the US because their business in Lebanon failed. But they go back every summer for vacation and to visit their family.

    Israel bombed southern Lebanon a few years back, since Hezbollah has gained quite a foothold in that country, and were using Lebanese territory from which to attack Israel. Sound familiar?

    Mary: you have revealed your anti-Semitic agenda by placing Lebanon’s woes squarely at the feet of Israel. Evidently you have no knowledge of the Muslim-Maronite Christian conflict that led to Syria’s intervention in Lebanon’s affairs, years before Israel ever became involved.

    On 11 March 1978, 11 Fatah members led by the 18-year old female Dalal Mughrabi travelled from Lebanon and killed an American tourist on the beach. They then hijacked a bus on the coastal road near Haifa, and en route to Tel Aviv commandeered a second bus. After a lengthy chase and shootout, 37 Israelis were killed and 76 wounded [1]. This, the Coastal Road Massacre, was the proximate cause of the Israeli invasion three days later.

  • Mary

    Please keep posting these articles, mountain.

    It paints a very grim picture of what the Israeli’s don’t want the American people to know.

    This is a great addition to Larry’s blog, by providing factual information not full of you-know-who’s gobbledegook.

    Don’t you dare leave the blog. We NEED your facts here.

  • Mary

    Thank you, Land of Lincoln.

    And of course, you’re right.

    Perhaps we should all just let Stodgie and OIAF talk to each other, and we’ll converse around them.

    Facts don’t seem to reach either of them.

    And then all you get is profanities and namecalling.

    Your posts are quite rational and on target.

    The rest of us KNOW that. :)

  • LandOLincoln

    No, I think she means the Iran that was tending strongly pro-Western (not surprising with something like 60-70% of their population under age 30) despite the ayatollahs and Ahmadinejad, until the Neocons got their Pearl Harbor and the chance to put their sick fantasies of ME (and world) domination into action.

  • http://medusa2.wordpress.com medusa

    I’m horrified with the so-called liberals’ ignorance on Hamas/Palestine. Israel may be fighting an unwinable war but to pitch the Palestinians as innocent victims is beyond stupid.

  • Mary

    Be careful. OIAF will call you a nasty name, and then she’ll think she won, cuz “she has ballz.” Neener-neener-neener.

    Indeed, they are quite the pair.

    Pair o’ what, I’m not sure.

    But quite the pair. LOL

  • stodgie

    mary, you are acting the fool again today and your little buddy land of lincoln is applauding. i bet hamas is so proud.

  • stodgie

    land of lincoln, since you don’t use reason in your posts, your comments are nonsense.

  • Mary

    Neither do the Israelis.

    If there’s no electricity in Gaza, then there are no charged cell phones.

    Israel misled you again.

  • Pennsylvania Red

    Mary was dead wrong about Lebanon last night, check out the post by
    Joe Biden’s scalp hurts | 2009-01-07 19:40:23

    on yesterday’s article Watching death day and night .

    She started out by saying Lebanon is no longer a democracy, when in fact it is a parliamentary democracy.

    When I lived in the city my residence was in the middle of a Lebanese Christian community. My former neighbors’ country is far from “obliterated”. And she completely missed the part about The Syrian Occupation of Lebanon which began three years before Israel’s incursion into Lebanon, in response to a PLO attack.

  • stodgie

    mary are you so stupid in that is what you read into that history lesson? dang, lady, you are misfiring upstairs.

  • Mary

    Did you hear? Obama intends to talk to Hamas, and get the facts for himself.

    Perhaps he thinks Israel misled Bush, and he doesn’t want to be that stupid.

    Good on ya, Obama!

  • Strawberrybitch

    stodgie, you do know Bush said the same things about the Sunni and the Shia before invading Iraq…right? Was Saddam Hussien a Sunni or a Shia, what about the Iranians, Shia or Sunni…how about Bin Laden…or Al Sadr? And yes it makes a very big difference. It’s like the difference between a Protestant and a Catholic and we’re still fighting that one in Northern Ireland. Sorry to be so simplistic Mary but to not understand the basic difference between the Shia and Sunni is a biggy.

  • stodgie

    red, mary is always wrong. her twisted logic makes pretzels look straight.

  • Strawberrybitch

    Bullshit.

  • stodgie

    strawberry, i like you and don’t want to get in an argument with you. i uusualy like your comments but pick better running buddies. and i understand the difference between shia and sunni. most don’t. so don’t try writing down to me again.

  • stodgie

    bullxxxx right back at you!!!!!

  • Mary

    One more time, slowly for the new learners:

    Iran supports Hezbollah, a Shiite organization.

    Hamas is not Shiite; it is SUNNI, like Saddam Hussein was.

    There is no way in hell Iran would support a Sunni organization, except in the fevered inventions of Israeli and neocon propaganda, where they try to convince you that “they all look alike.”

    They DON’T.

    Hamas is more likely supported by Sunni groups who dislike their governments cooperating with Israel and the US in killing Palestinians (ie, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia). Think of the same Wassabi leaders who supported Osama Bin Laden—he was a Sunni, too.

    SUNNI. SUNNI. SUNNI.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Wow do you need some mental health care Mary. I have NEVER initiated posts to you, and you seem rather obsessed with me. Stalk much? Really feel sorry for you. Grow up.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Mary is ALWAYS wrong and many posters here point it out daily. Then she goes on the really mature attack when you edumacate her about global politics. Very sad.

  • stodgie

    mary, you have clearly missed the recent tv reports that the hamas and hezbollah are both cooperating with the support of iran. grow and do your damn homework. you embarrass yourself as usual.

  • Mary

    Uh, no.

    The United Nations pictures of those bombs being loaded onto Israeli artillery have the EXACT numbers on the side that coincide with the “new and improved” white phosphorous weapons made in the United States, and which Rumsfeld et al used in Shock and Awe.

    It’s being reported in the Jerusalem papers, too.

  • Karma
  • Mary

    If you’ll re-read my post, I never said Lebanon was not a democracy.

    I said it WAS a young democracy, as I’ve always said.

    Thus, Bush’s admonition that “democracies don’t invade democracies” is a complete lie.

    Israel invaded Lebanon, a young democracy.

    But Lebanon/Syria was Israel’s SECOND step in their pre-planned re-arranging of the Middle East power structure.

    Invading Iraq and removing Saddam was the FIRST step, planned in 1996 in “A Clean Break.”

    Perhaps you should read that paper and find out what’s next.

  • Mary

    Still no factual paragraph from our stodgie explaining BOTH sides of the Lebanon fiasco.

    No surprise.

  • LandOLincoln

    Thanks, Mary, I appreciate and value your posts as well, and I agree that we should simply ignore the emotionalists. I’m hard pressed to think of a single post from either one of them (or their ilk) that offered anything in the way of real information, or even an interesting and original take on the situation.

  • Mary

    So did several of what the British called Jewish terrorist organizations before and during WWII.

    Lehi, a radical offshoot of Irgun, actually MET with Nazi officers and sent messages to Hitler, offering help undermining the British in return for a homeland after the war.

    So, what’s your point?

  • http://medusa2.wordpress.com medusa

    Obama is going to talk to the terrorist organization Hamas? And believe what they tell him? I can’t decide whether Obama or Hamas is the less credible in that configuration.

    Hamas is a terrorist organization. The Palestinians elected them as their leaders.

    Obama is an idiot.

  • Linda C.

    This isn’t about giving Hamas a pass. If you have an undisciplined dangerously equipped army shooting 10 year girls running away..it will never defeat an enemy only create new ones. Abuses by a thug with a gun matters not if the thug wears a uniform or doesn’t.

    What is that vague definition of “a Hamas target” that Israel would bomb schools and UN Shelters? Is it defined by nature in military terms and credible threats of military force? Or is it similar to targeting Republicans

    What exactly is the “threat” that Hamas targets supposedly in the UN shelters pose? Israel says there are threats in there, but what are they? Has Israel proved to itself or anyone else that that “threat” was neutralized by bombing that shelter and killing innocents?

  • Strawberrybitch

    Then you would understand how naive sounding that statement was. While my husband was in Iraq, I decided to go back to school to better understand what is happening over there. Not only was I fortunate enough to get unfiltered news from the front, I also was able to better understand the ME mind set. Sun Tzu Know your enemy. Better yet know who your enemy is. If anyone has the right to “hate the muslems” it’s someone that has a loved one permanently disabled by the conflict. And Mary is quite correct on many issues regarding the ME. It is NOT black and white. Baghdad has been ethnically cleansed in many neighborhoods. Sunni killing shia, shia killing sunni. The whole country is partitioned off among invisable lines and the government as well is gearing up for some kind of power struggle. I’m not sure if it will be hot or cold. Larry probably has a better idea. As for Israel and the Palistinians, this whole conflict is actually bringing the two sides together. But getting upset with Mary is silly. From her postings I’m guessing she has at least an MA in either ME history or the equivalent. She’s having me race back through my old text books.

  • Mary

    No cusswords.

    I’m impressed. You can, too, write a sentence without profanity.

    Good job.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    ROFLMAO…”our ilk?” HAHAHAH…You mean people with high IQs and legitimate perspective on the situation? I think you two nuts are right. It breaks my heart to see stodgie casting his pearls before swine. You two can create all of your fantasy situations in the Israel/Hamas mess and spew your Israel hate and filth all day long and we will ignore you. Just please have the same respect for me. I don’t bother with you two but you seem rather interested in continually posting to ME. Have a nice life and keep up that Israel hate!

  • stodgie

    strawberry, you and i don’t agree especially about mary.

  • Mary

    No caps or screaming.

    Good job.

  • stodgie

    WHAT DID YOU SAY, MARY? by the way i don’t need or want your sarcasm disguised as approval. you again embarrass yourself.

  • Mary

    Of course it’s a biggy, strawberry.

    Sunni vs. Shia explains much of the strife in Iraq, the motivations of rival groups, including Hamas and Hezbollah, the deep fear Israel has of Iraq becoming a Shia majority country, and thus, empowering Iran.

    You’re absolutely right that it makes a huge difference in having any kind of understanding of what’s happening in the Middle East right now.

    Anyone who admits they don’t have a clue what the difference is, is in no way informed enough to understand, or preach to others who do.

    Without understanding that difference, they’re wandering around in the dark, grasping at propaganda being fed to them.

    It MATTERS knowing the difference.

    Thanks. :)

  • Karma

    Thank you for the article. What a difference a Sgt makes!

    I hope they listen to such advice in the future.

  • Pennsylvania Red

    Comment by Mary | 2009-01-07 11:37:50

    But Steve……Lebanon was a democracy, too, and Israel still obliterated the country, using cluster bombs on civilians.

    That’s your quote where you referred to Lebanon being a democracy in the past tense.

    And Lebanon is not obliterated.

  • Mary

    Nonsense.

    The American neocons and the Israeli neocons are united by a fundamentalist ideology.

    They are being rejected by the rest of the world now as the radical fundamentalists they really are.

    AND by the American people.

  • stodgie

    mary, sigh, you poor thing! i won’t do your work for you. besides you have no interest in learning about the other side. you are too busy spewing.

  • Mary

    Right again, Land of Lincoln.

    Notice OAIF’s post above. Proves your point.

    Not a clue what the facts are. Just spewing.

    Ok…..so let her spew with stodgie.

    We LIKE your posts on this board.

  • Mary

    Where’s that paragraph explaining BOTH sides of what happened in Lebanon, stodgie?

    We’re still waiting.

  • Strawberrybitch

    So was I right Mary? MA in ME history…or are you like me, a professional student who runs back to campus when they have questions? I’ve almost got degrees in biology, political science, international relations, english lit, film making and now I’m actually going to finish one in aerospace eng…well actually, I’m getting my professional pilot’s licence. Hope to go to work for Wings of Hope. Google them up they’re great.

  • http://ezinearticles.com/?Three-Basic-Parenting-Styles&id=744499 Northwest rain

    You are adding to my call for raising of the voting age — to at least 24.

    It was the stupid generation that voted for Obama — at this age these kids think they know everything — and they can be turned into remorseless killing machines by the military or a cult leader.

    Most under 24 have no common sense — it would seem. For those of you who are the exception — I guess you are proof of the existence of evolution.

    I made several attempts to talk to childish Obots — and they were so ignorant and living in an alternative reality — that they had no business even voting.

  • stodgie

    mary, like i have written to you. now i write slowly so even you will get it(maybe). i am not doing your work for you. do your own self. i am waiting to see you write something that has two sides to it. crickets!

  • Mary

    Sorry Stodgie. The poster said there IS a Palestinian state, and that it is called Jordan.

    It wasn’t a very long post, stodgie.

    Did you have trouble understanding what he said?

    Do you agree with the poster?

  • Mary

    If she was leaving, then it appears that the IDF officer shot her in the back, doesn’t it?

  • stodgie

    gee, thanks for showing your true colors mary. hamas and the rest of the middle east are just moderate souls being picked on by the neocons. it is the neocons who are fundamentialists. surely the neocons are about as bad, but your pathetic one sided view doesn’t show education or critical thinking skills contrary to what some adoring posters try to imply.

  • Karma
  • Mary

    I think we all agree with what you’re thinking and feeling.

    At this point, the international community must come together in common decency and stop the slaughter we’re watching happen in Gaza.

    I call on the United Nations Security Council to impose an immediate full-time ceasefire and hold Israel accountable for flaunting previous UN Resolutions designed to stop the killing.

    And I call on Condi Rice to do the right thing and NOT veto that Security Council cease fire.

    But you see, Condi has a record of agreeing with the neocons, and never resisting what they choose to do.

  • Strawberrybitch

    Um dude, we’re talking about NCOs here. Let me guess, you’re not in the military. Most NCOs (before the war at least) were older. Thirties and forties. With the most experience. I’m guessing you don’t read much so may I suggest watching the movie Platoon. Hokey and totally Hollywood so you’ll probably love it.

  • Mary

    Which TV reports, stodgie? Fox News?

    Give us a link to your claim, please.

  • Mary

    Right, stodgie. We all know why you can’t write that paragraph, dear.

    Nice try, though.

  • LandOLincoln

    Yep, they sure are ignorant, of ME history, of our history, and just about everything else.

    Speaking of our history, I’m happy that more and more Americans are seeing the parallels between the Palestinians’ situation and that of our own Indigenous population. That’s especially true here in New Mexico, for what I assume are obvious reasons.

    The first thing that came to mind, when I read of the slaughter of that little Palestinian girl, was the orders Col. Chivington gave his troops at Sand Creek: to kill everything that moved, whether elders, disabled, women, or–particularly–children, because after all, “Nits make lice.”

  • Mary

    I have several degrees, yes, but that’s not a name-dropping thing.

    I read a lot, and did so, during the false manipulation of America by the neocons claiming WMD’s in Iraq. “A Clean Break” came up often as the Israeli plan to actually LEAD America’s buffoon president into exactly where they wanted him to go. Richard Perle once called Bush “really stupid,” but only after he been one of the Cheney “foreign policy advisors” who “trained” Bush before he ever ran for office.

    Netanyahu has been tied at the hip with these neocons—Cheney, Rumsfeld, Feith, Perle, Wurmser, etc—-since the early 90′s.

    It’s not really that hard to begin to grasp the two-faced operations of the Iraeli neocon/Zionists.

    Everything they planned, wanted, and manipulated to get, is right there in the 1996 Netanyahu paper.

    What I really hate is that my own country, led by an idiot, has ruined its own reputation by being led by these fools.

    NEVER AGAIN, is my motto.

    And Americans who don’t read both sides, trying to figure out who’s motivation is the most manipulative, annoy the crap out of me.

    I have no MA in ME history. But I read the writings and the history books of those who do.

    Thanks, strawberry.

  • LandOLincoln

    And how would the Israelis get the cell numbers anyway?

  • Mary

    From the guy who admits he hasn’t a clue what the difference is, between Shia and Sunni.

    YAWN

  • Mary

    Translation: I don’t know anything about it, and can’t write that paragraph.

    I don’t even know the difference between Sunni’s and Shia’s, just like George Bush didn’t.

  • stodgie

    ruel gerecht-the wall street journal
    iran’s hamas stragedy(1/2009)

    marie colin – sunday times
    gaza city “palestinian group, hamas, admits its fighters are trained in iran.” 1/2009

    mary, you really are naive and a major embarrassment here.

  • stodgie

    by the way Mary, the real fundamentalists are now joining together to attack what they consider to be their foes. that happens to include you as well. yawn, you are a shallow thinker, Mary!

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    mary, you really are naive and a major embarrassment here.

    LMAO stodgie…so true. It’s like driving by a train wreck watching this crap.

  • Mary

    Agree completely.

    The first thing that came to mind, when I read about the siege/blockade Israel imposed on Gaza right after the election of Hamas, withholding food, water, fuel, medical supplies, and denying entry or exit to anyone there, was the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto.

    Blaming those governing Gaza is exactly what the Nazis did, blaming those governing the Warsaw Ghetto.

    But I’m very pleased that more and more Americans are paying attention to what their own government seems to be approving and condoning in support of Israel’s politicians.

    It is an abomination unto God that they have become what we all despised and fought against in WWII.

  • stodgie

    heck, the wall street journal and a number of publications are writing about concerns that iran is now backing hamas. it makes sense from their point of view. and anyone who thinks otherwise is seriously mistaken. that is unfortunate and frankly i wish mary was right on this.

  • stodgie

    there is a country called jordan and some of the residents called themselves palestinians, Mary. duh!

  • patm

    For anyone critical of Israel and saying that innocent people in Gaza are being killed by Israel,watch this video about what Hamas is doing to innocent people in Gaza-let’s see if you have enough honor to speak out against Hamas like you do against Israel.

  • patm

    For anyone critical of Israel and saying that innocent people in Gaza are being killed by Israel,watch this video about what Hamas is doing to innocent people in Gaza-let’s see if you have enough honor to speak out against Hamas like you do against Israel.
    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/01/rare-video-hama.html

  • stodgie

    patm, don’t hold your breath waiting. they’ll diss you and then pull some bull from their fav sources to try and dispute you.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Land of Crap…

    I will compare IQs any time. And I really think it’s rather unpatriotic to run around using propaganda, false claims, inaccurate historical fact, and your inane emotional blather in the support of terrorism against Israel. I can’t usually even comment on your nonsense because it’s so full of lies and BS. Spin your lies all day. Maybe you are an Obot troll spewing the same Israel hate that your boss does.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    stodgie…with all due respect honey…you are trying to get someone who is illogical, irrational and uneducated on the situation to agree with you. Not much you can do about that. I bet Mary is one of those conspiracy nuts who think it was actually George Bush who flew the planes into the twin towers. People like that will never listen to logic or reason. They just spew hate and inaccuracies all day. Like I said, most posters, other than Land of Crap, agree with you about Mary.

  • Mary

    You were right…..several degrees in several topics, but it doesn’t really matter.

    There isn’t any information I’ve posted here that anyone can’t find, study, and understand, if they’re eager and curious. History is one of my favorite subjects, and how easily it is twisted for political purposes.

    I actually like to read BOTH sides, so that I’m not controlled by EITHER side.

    I believe one continues to learn until the day one dies.

    I guess I thought everyone thought that. Oh well. LOL

  • stodgie

    thanks!

  • Mary

    Not to mention, Butch, that America must be concerned about their OWN interests first and foremost, and not let Israel lead them down the wrong path.

    We don’t have to enable Israel , if we disagree with their immoral choices.

  • Mary

    That’s not what his post said, and you know it.

    Nice try, though.

  • stodgie

    mary, go to bed without your supper!

  • Seattle Moss

    Mary,
    Do you know the difference between Sharia law and English common law.

    I didn’t think so…

    Since there are enough America haters like you I’ve decided to open a Burka store.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    LMFAO Mossy!

    A new business for you. Man, will you be busy with those Burkas the way this country is going.

    I personally think that Land of Crap and CAIRy Mary are Obot plants. Warming us up for the Israel hate that is going to come in the new so-called administration.

  • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

    No one here is justifying Hamas attacking Israel. We’ve been very clear that such behavior is wrong and not justified. But you need to deal with the facts. Israel is killing far more Palestinian children and civilians than are Palestinians killing Israelis.

    Also, like Pat Lang (and I know many others with the same experience) I have been to Israel and worked with IDF folks. There is far too much racists hatred of the Palestinians. Another old friend, who was in southern Lebanon as a Marine back in the early 80s wrote the following to me last night:

    In 1982, Ryan Crocker (then pol officer in embassy) and I used to follow the IDF all over southern Lebanon and observed the same thing – stupid reactions to normal occurrences, particularly with the civilian population. The Marines around the airfield used to laugh at the response of the IDF resupply convoys that took sniper fire – a 360 degree, everyone firing all out, response!! Of course, while laughing, they took cover. Later…

  • Linda C.

    We have sunk to relative morality haven’t we? Let’s excuse the atrocities on one side because there are atrocities committed on the other side. That argument has only permitted the continued cycle of endless atrocities.

    The politicians on both sides have no real interest in ending this cycle because it means a loss of their power. What would happen to Hamas or Likud if there was peace? They would evaporate into the existential nothingness. What has been an “argument for legitimacy” to exist on either side is nothing more than a ruse of power to be kept by those who do not wish to give it up no matter how many innocents are killed. After 60 years, none of the politicians can claim to be the innocent victims. Only the children have a right to that claim.

  • stodgie

    good comment linda!

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Let’s put this in perspective…

    Let’s say America..ALL of us…were under constant, daily attacks and surrounded by those who wish to “obliterate us.” Let’s say we retaliate. Now, I for one don’t give a DAMN who we get when we fire back. I want it to stop and stop NOW. Period. When it happens in America, and it will soon, maybe people will get off the Israel hate and understand that every country has a right to defend themselves. If Hamas doesn’t want civilian casualties, then maybe they can stop using “human shields” and firing from SCHOOLS, etc.. What a ridiculous bunch of nonsense to side with them. And, by the way, railing on Israel IS siding with them. There isn’t really a middle ground here. Either Israel defends themselves or not. And if Hamas is attacking them from civilian edifices, too frigging BAD.

  • Seattle Moss

    OIAF,
    and now for a quick history..
    The 1980′s…Palestinians throwing rocks
    The 1990′s…Palestinians shooting guns
    The 2000′s…Palestinians shooting rockets.

    When will one of these rockets be a nuke?

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Wonder what the Israel haters will do then? I guess they will sit in their houses and accept the nukes, rather than of course risk civilian lives by retaliating and defending our country.

  • LandOLincoln

    Good lord but you’re a silly little flibbertygibbit, OIAF. You claim to be 46, but if so, it’s 46 going on 14.

    And I guess you missed the part–on that other thread–where I identified myself as PUMA.

    You do know what PUMA is, don’t you?

    Here’s a hint: it means I detest Barack Obama and the ugly, racist and misogynist–and fraudulent– campaign he and the DNC ran.

    It means I voted Republican for the first time in my life, and quite happily too, for while I disagree with John McCain and Sarah Palin on most policy issues, I like and respect them as people and as (comparatively) honest politicians.

    Now run along and play, that’s a good girl… ;-)

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Israeli cellphone providers send SMS to numbers of targeted area codes, every single subscriber, and Israel also drops pamphlets warning Palestinian civilians out of harm’s way before any strike. They risk their infantry when an air strike would do the job with fewer Israeli casualties.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Here’s a thought: you live in Gaza and see a rocket go up aimed at an Israeli neighborhood, you have two minutes to clear.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    LMAO…Well I guess someone INTELLIGENT and INFORMED answered that silly question.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    What would prevent Iran from giving nukes to Hamas? As far as many Arabs are concerned, the Palis are the original useful idiots. Buy a clue.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Iran’s mullahcracy is certainly not pro-Western, and her secular youth will hopefully vote out Ahmadinehad (who has no real power except as a very loud mouthpiece.)

    I am well aware of the marvels of civilization in Tehran and the demographics.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    In Gaza, the real enemy is Iran
    Israeli attacks must not stop until Iran’s proxy, Hamas, is defeated.

    By Yossi Klein Halevi and Michael B. Oren
    January 4, 2009

    Reporting from Jerusalem — The images from the fighting in Gaza are harrowing but ultimately deceptive. They portray a mighty invading army, one equipped with F-16 jets that have bombed a civilian population defended by a few thousand fighters armed with primitive rockets. But widen the lens and the true nature of this conflict emerges. Hamas, like Hezbollah in Lebanon, is a proxy for the real enemy Israel is confronting: Iran. And Israel’s current operation against Hamas represents a unique chance to deal a strategic blow to Iranian expansionism.

    Until now, the Iranian revolution has appeared unstoppable. The Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s ended with Iranian troops occupying Iraqi territory. Iranian influence then spread to Saudi Arabia’s heavily Shiite and oil-rich Eastern province, and to Lebanon through Hezbollah. Since the fall of their long-standing enemy, Saddam Hussein, Iranians have deeply infiltrated Iraq. Syria has been drawn into Iran’s sphere, and even the Sunni sheikdoms of the gulf now defer to Iran, dispatching foreign ministers to Tehran and defying international sanctions against it. Iran has co-opted Hamas, a Sunni organization closely linked to the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, transforming the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into a jihad against the Jewish state. But Iran’s boldest achievement has been to thwart world pressure and approach the nuclear threshold. Once fortified with nuclear weapons, Iranian hegemony in the Middle East would be complete.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-halevi4-2009jan04,0,1975444.story

    Oh, I know, the LA Times, that vicious propaganda organ of the fascist right. Tool.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Palestine was never a state, and “Vichy” Jews who collaborated with the Nazis during WWII were never Israelis. What’s your point?

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Thank you for proving my point.

  • Joe Biden’s scalp hurts

    One would have to classify them at least a major distraction.

    /s

  • Zeke

    Mary,
    Rearrange your Burkah, your horns are showing through.
    You are a waste of air and a blazing anti-semite. Did you grow up in a house where everyone blamed the goddam Christ-killers all the time?
    Wait a minute, that’s not a Burkhah, I didn’t see the TWO EYEHOLES.
    I’m sorry, Grand Dragon, how things in the Klan?
    You are simply a Jew hater who hasn’t got the guts to join others who believe the same thing.
    GFY

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Zeke..yet another spot on post. It’s funny…if you go to any other sane, rational blog…there are TONS of articles, posts, videos, etc., of the OTHER SIDE of this and the TRUTH. I can’t BELIEVE the BS from these Jew haters. It’s really scary.

  • smitty

    In 1949, Israel was attacked by Jordan, Egypt and Syria. Israel had little or no army, yet they prevailed. I guess, in your opinion, those THREE countries together, with their established military were not formidable enough to do the job either, even against one tiny little country.

  • LandOLincoln

    Sweetiepie, “intelligent” and “informed” are concepts quite foreign to you, as has become abundantly clear.

    As for my “silly” question, yes, it was rather naive, as I realized the minute I hit “add comment,” but by then it was too late, and since this board doesn’t allow edits there wasn’t a lot I could do about it.

    So–you lot have answered my question; how’s about addressing Mary’s?

    Eh?

  • Joe Biden’s scalp hurts

    What no quotes from the Protocols of Zion?

    We’re disappointed in you CAIRy.

    It’s all a conspiracy hatched and executed by the Planet of Worldwide Joos. Certainly all the wise and educated posters on this board (with many degrees) are aware of this.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Hamas is the democratically elected government of the PA and a designated terrorist organization committed to the destruction of the Jewish state. Now you see why the right of return it says it unconditionally supports is an impossibility right now, as well as a two-state solution that it sees as defeat.

    Palestinians supported Hamas taking power because 1. they took control of Gaza through a successful military coup 2. Hezbollah was seen as successful during the summer before the election 3. the previous government was seen as widely corrupt and inefficient, with Palestinian despair making Hamas seem like as good an option as any.

    Unfortunately, the world saw this as a disaster to any peace talks and would not immediately bestow political legitimacy on Hamas, and they continued their terrorist ways. Shia and Sunni has no bearing on how badly Hamas, Hezbollah and their Iranian sponsors want to see Israel destroyed — as a political entity, if you like.

  • smitty

    Okay, Mr Falk. Maybe International Law should be interpreted this way. For every rocket that is sent into a country, that country is allowed to send one into the the country that shelled it. In other words, if Hamas was sending 50 to 60 rockets a day into Israel during the 6 months that the “so-called” peace talks were being held, Israel could shoot the same number into Gaza. Since Hamas was trying to target as many civilians as it could during this shelling, Israel should be allowed to do the same. Israel did not shoot back at Hamas during this 6 month period, but warned them to stop and when they did not do so, Israel retaliated. Good for them. Tit for Tat, you reap what you sow, etc.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Nobody here thinks war is pleasant. Hamas chooses to bring civilians into direct harm’s way by firing in these densely populated areas. Their propaganda commandos will perform audacious acts like recycling already-dead bodies from morgues and creating non-existent hospitals that they can accuse Israel of having bombed. And hundreds of people will die, either civilians or Hamas operatives and soldiers.

  • LandOLincoln

    Zeke, sweetie, I just love it when you wingnuts screech ANTI-SEMITE!!! whenever anyone dares make the slightest criticism–overt or implied–of Israel and the Neocons running their show these days.

    It’s just like the Obots and their screams of RACISM!!! whenever anyone declined to worship at the feet of Teh Precious.

    And BTW, ignoramus, Arabs are Semites too.

  • Zeke

    Israel will maintain as long as it has to.
    None of you get this.
    Maybe this will get through.
    ISRAEL IS ALL IN ON EVERY BET!
    They don’t ante, they don’t raise, they are always ALL IN!
    Some of you pro-Palestinians talk like badasses.
    Have you ever looked at another human being and told him he was going to die if he fucked with you and know that you might die in the effort? Have you personally ever gone ALL IN with your own life? If you haven’t then sadly, you can only use your imagination.
    Your focus becomes so intense that your thoughts double their speed, your heart beats a mile a minute because its just been told that it might not get to do that anymore.
    You are measuring everything, trying to see it all at once and you are SCARED beyond belief.
    Some people get off on it. The few times it ever happened to me, I wanted to go somewhere and hide so I could cry for a few years. It is horrible beyond your candyass dreams. Video doesn’t describe the smells and sounds and nothing can prepare you for witnessing what might be your own immanent death.
    I have not come close to accurately describing what being shot at or fighting hand to hand is like. I can’t do it.
    Just know that this feeling that you could be killed indiscriminately at any time is what Israeli’s face every day.
    At some certain time, even you perfect souled critics who see all things from a distance with perfection would hear a missile coming in and finally say, “That’ll do, pig.”

  • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

    Actually, when you look at the drug violence spilling over our borders from Mexico there are more Americans dying from those attacks than have died in Israel. We are not blowing the hell out of Mexico now, are we?

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    As Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, said while addressing the Jordanian National Assembly on February 2nd, 1970: “Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate.”

    Further…

    During the League of Nations Mandate period, the land originally set aside by the League of Nations as the Palestine Mandate was supposed to provide for a national home for the Jewish people. The British were given the authority to manage the Mandate and help the Jews make the transition to independence.

    Instead, almost 80% of the original Mandate land was carved out and arbitrarily made into the Arab country of Trans-Jordan (later renamed Jordan). In all the land of the Mandate east of the Jordan River it was “No Jews Allowed”. West of the Jordan, the 20% part of the Mandate, the British restricted Jewish immigration and gradually adopted policies that were more and more pro-Arab. Palestinian Arabs are the majority of the population of Jordan even today.

    http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_whynostate.php

    Palestinian Arabs have been offered the opportunity to create a state many times, starting with plans advanced during the British Mandate which the Arabs rejected. Then the United Nation partition plan of 1947, which brought Israel into existence, included a nation for the Palestinians, but the Arabs rejected it. Over the decades since there has been plan after plan that would bring peace to the region and a state for the Palestinians: all they had to do was let Israel live in peace. Arabs rejected all these plans, up to and including at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in 2001, and kept the armed struggle going.

  • LandOLincoln

    As a matter of fact, the L.A. Times could well be said to be a “propaganda organ of the fascist right,” and so could the N.Y. Times, and the Washington Post, and–for that matter–all major media, print or otherwise, in this country.

    It’s all corporate-owned and controlled (very controlled) and I defy you to name me one left-leaning corporation, one that owns major media, anyway.

    Just one. ‘kay?

    P.S. You do know the definition of fascism, don’t you?

  • smitty

    I think that if I were taking sniper fire, I would also shoot back 360 degrees while taking cover, and I wonder at the mentality of someone who wouldn’t do the same.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Larry,

    So you are equating:

    Hamas’s dedication to the complete “obliteration of Israel” to the Mexico/Border/Drug situation?

    So, that means, unequivocally, that Mexico is dedicated to the complete “obliteration of America?”

    Not following that logic. Sorry.

  • Joe Biden’s scalp hurts

    UK Guardian reports 0bama wants to talk to Hamas:

    There are a number of options that would avoid a politically toxic scenario for Obama of seeming to give legitimacy to Hamas.

    “Secret envoys, multilateral six-party talk-like approaches. The total isolation of Hamas that we promulgated under Bush is going to end,” said Steve Clemons, the director of the American Strategy ­Programme at the New America ­Foundation. “You could do something through the Europeans. You could invent a structure that is multilateral. It is going to be hard for the neocons to swallow,” he said. “I think it is going to happen.

    But one Middle East expert close to the transition team said: “It is highly unlikely that they will be public about it.”

  • Zeke

    Pancho Villa and George Pershing
    If Mexico doesn’t start enforcing its own laws, then it qualifies as a state without government and we would be within our international rights to surgically (at first) do whatever it takes to preserve the safety of our citizens.
    With respect Larry, international law covers this stuff as you should know.
    We are also within our international rights to carpet bomb the coastline of Somalia if we want to in order to protect ships.
    Nations have immense rights in international law to take steps which THEY believe are necessary to protect themselves.
    Everyone bitched about Russia going into Georgia but the excuse they used gave them international rights to do it, even though they were lying.
    Mexico is, right now, on the brink of being a non-governed nation. When your cops cannot or will not enforce laws, then the government is not governing and disqualifies itself as an authority.
    Same-same Palestine.

  • smitty

    We should. Take a look at our cities and our children who are being murdered
    by the poison in the form of drugs that are flowing into our country from these drug lords. When are we going to start protecting Our people.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Manifest destiny is not a compelling argument for genocide carried out by one group. If there were any single incident that would qualify as a genocidal act by our modern standards, it would be Sand Creek. However, there is a reason that genocide is tried as a personal crime. Genocide was never American policy, nor was it the result of policy.

    The sweeping charge of genocide against the Indians became especially popular during the Vietnam war, when historians opposed to that conflict began drawing parallels between our actions in Southeast Asia and earlier examples of a supposedly ingrained American viciousness toward non-white peoples. It is the prevalent trend of thinking among many of our prominent academecians, still stuck in the civil rights battles of the 60′s and not the current ones of a society trending post-racial (i.e. Bill Ayers.)

    Israel is not an apartheid state but a Jewish homeland defending itself in a hostile region. It is a vibrant democracy we must protect.

  • Zeke

    Landolincoln,
    Your screenname speaks many more volumes than that tiny tiny little soft spot at the center of your skull could ever do.
    Thanks for coming from the state where God intends to give America its enema.
    Do you roll around in the big pig sty that Sandberg thought ought to be flushed into the lake or are you down south where the crooks only come out to vote present and get a blow job from the distinguished senator from south Chicago.
    If you can get someone to point at the spot intended, Go Fuck Yourself, douche
    Cubs When Hell Freezes

  • LandOLincoln

    But of course the Palestinians–and Arabs in general– are subhuman animals so they never feel any of the things you describe, is that what you’re saying, Zeke?

    They’ve been thrown off their land, herded into concentration camps, and now the Israelis seem to be hellbent on a Palestinian “final solution.”

    But that’s perfectly okay, because somebody did it to them first, and besides, they’re the “Chosen People,” is that it?

    Israel is a state founded on terrorism. You reap what you sow…

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Death To All (Zionist) Juice!

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Why don’t you take your uneducated butt, Land O Crap, over to Atlas Shrugs and look at the fun articles and pretty pictures over there. Might give you some perspective and calm that Jew hate.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    We’ll just build the Jews another monument, as Mona Charen once said.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    I suppose the scare quotes around “Jewish homeland” implies you think they should just “get back to their ovens,” as the Florida woman said.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    By the way, regarding Mexico…we could stop it if we wanted to. We allow the illegals here and Pelosi is going to start supporting them with our tax dollars. Not necessary. But if we REALLY wanted to close the borders, crack down on immigration, send the illegals home, etc. we could do it. That’s not part of the wing nut agenda though. We’re going the other way on that. So, as far as Mexico…It’s OUR fault.

  • Zeke

    Careful there, you’re about to win an argument!
    :)

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Care to elaborate on the shibboleth neocon?

  • Zeke

    That’s right bitch, no cars in Gaza… no car-chargers in Gaza. That is why they all walk around yelling “God is Good,” into their dead phones all the time.
    You are so fucking stupid!
    So, you live on the West Bank is it?

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    The facts: Hammas is committed to Israel’s destruction. How many times do they have to say it, and in how many ways do they have to prove it? Talk about what?

  • LandOLincoln

    Zeke, sweet thang, my screenname refers to the state where I was born and spent the first quarter century or so of my life.

    I left it nearly 40 years ago. Much too conservative, and the climate!! oy

    But thanks for playing.

  • smitty

    Most of the soldiers who defended our country during World War II were between 18 and 25. If we had not won that one, we would probably all be speaking German now. (At least, the blond blue eyed ones of us that survived would be). “Children” saved this country if you call 18 to 25′s children. All armies are young men and women.

    Israel is not fighting in order to kill innocents or to rule territory. When they retaliate against attack by any Arab aggressor, they are fighting for their very existence. If the aggressor is Hamas and they are hiding among their civilian population, it is their fault when the civilians are killed. Hamas wants the total destrucion of Israel and all Jews. Islam wants the destruction of all infidels (meaning anybody not Islamic) Some of you people writing here had better wake up and smell the coffee. We are also the target. No matter how innocent and how civilian we are, we are the target if these terrorists can finally figure out a way to destroy us. Haven’t they already killed thousands of us in New York and Washington and Pennsylvania and in suicide attacks in other parts of the world? Their own lives and the lives of civilians mean nothing to them. They are hating, blood thirsty killers with but one aim. And if you, as an American are standing before one of them, you’d better hope that you have a gun to protect yourself because you will certainly need it.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Are you fucking joking me?

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Okay, now we have officially entered the Twilight Zone….Good Lord. Carteh, how can you take this nonsense seriously? LMFAO.

  • Karma

    Hmmmm…..sounds to me like you would drown out the sound of the sniper fire with your rapid 360* return fire. While wasting ammo.

  • TexasMirth

    I have always stood steadfastly on the side of Israel, but the story shared above of the little girl being gunned down so ruthlessly by Israeli soldiers breaks my heart. I still feel that Israel has every right to try and stop Hamas from launching missiles into Israel, but this story of shooting civilians, almost for sport, is disturbing and more so, if, as indicated in the article by Jonathan Turley, the Israeli military doesn’t condemn these outrageous acts.

  • smitty

    They did not close the borders until Hamas starting sending suicide bombers into Israel and blowing up buses, markets, schools (yes schools!) Maybe you will keep your doors open to someone who has made it clear that they intend to come in and destroy you, but no thanks, not me! I intend to put up a fence, lock the gate and bar my door. I’m not that stupid.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    The atrocities Hamas is committing are 100 times worse. I want to check that Jonathan Turley story. Somehow I believe a lot of this is propaganda and I can’t help thinking what a coincidence it is that suddenly we are being forced to put stink and hate on Israel when the biggest Israel hater of them all, Fraudbama, is about to usurp the White House. Hmmmm…I doubt it’s much of a coincidence. Get America all anti-Israel so when Fraudbama hangs them out to dry, because he loves Hamas so much, we applaud him. It makes me sick.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Just to indulge you, Harbinger Capital is one of the major corporate shareholders of the NYT, owned by the Sulzberger family.

  • smitty

    Thank you! I’m so glad you finally set things straight. It is so frustrating to know what has been happening over the years and all the opportunities lost and then read some of the ignorant statements by some of the people here. I do not mean “ignorant” in an insulting way. I am sure many people just don’t know the truth. Atlast you have put it out there.

  • TexasMirth

    Get America all anti-Israel so when Fraudbama hangs them out to dry, because he loves Hamas so much, we applaud him.

    I would have thought so, too, OIAF, except for PEBO’s choice of Rahm Emanuel for his Chief of Staff. That confused me.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Well Rahm’s daddy was sort of a terrorist too, right – although of course for Israel? I agree that the Rahm thing is odd, but Fraudbama is who he is. No one can tell me he has one ounce of sympathy or love in him for Israel.

  • smitty

    I do not believe that the soldiers shot a 10 year old girl 17 times in the back. I think I know propaganda when I hear it.

  • smitty

    The Palestinians were in Jordan, a part of their population, but the Jordanian king got tired of them killing people and trying to take over the government and ran them out That’s how so many of them ended up in the west bank.

  • Joe Biden’s scalp hurts

    I’ve tried to post twice about an orchestrated stunt the media pulled, but both posts must be in moderation.

    Let’s try this:
    Google
    karsenty, france2, lawsuit, then click on the first link.

    The court ruled in Karsenty’s favor on May 21, 2008.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Thank you smitty. The BS propaganda surrounding this Israel situation is really frustrating to those of us who know the truth.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    ROFLMAO…Hamas hides in schools and launches rockets and then they use “human shields.” And we are supposed to believe some nonsense that Israelis wander around looking for infants to murder? LOL LOL LOL…what a bust. I know what this is…it’s a bunch of manufactured CRAP so when Fraudbama pulls the plug on supporting Israel we can give him a rousing CHEER for getting rid of those dirty Jews who murder toddlers. WTF is wrong with people believing this crap?

  • TexasMirth

    No one can tell me he has one ounce of sympathy or love in him for Israel.

    Agreed.

  • Karma

    “Israel is not fighting in order to kill innocents or to rule territory. When they retaliate against attack by any Arab aggressor, they are fighting for their very existence.”

    ~~

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/Israel_stealing_palestine.jpg

    ~~

    It looks like Israel is winning the fight for that ‘very existence’.

    The maps tell the truth.

    Where is Israel losing the fight on that map?

  • LandOLincoln

    No. I think you know what it means.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Joe’s Scalp Hurts…I just checked that out, thanks. I don’t doubt that is what is going on now too. I also go to Atlas Shrugs, another blog you might go to. It seems that they post a lot of information from the other side of this issue that has veracity.

  • justsomeone

    Patm, Thanks for posting the UTube of Hamas killing Palestinians, unfortunately it seemed to just sail right over the heads of most posters here. Hamas seems like a Taliban like organization to me. There have been recent stories in the Jerusalem Post of Hamas knee capping or killing Palestinians they suspect of being Fatah supporters. As for the EMT ambulance guy being killed by the IDF: check out the video at Jpost & tell me he wasn’t shot by Hamas. These freaks are killing their own people for PR sympathy

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg&eurl=http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/32395_Video-_Hamas_In_Their_Own_Voices

    Hamas in their own voices. These people are scum, period. And it’s sad to see all the Israel hate, and therefore promotion of the Hamas agenda, by ignorant people.

  • Joe Biden’s scalp hurts

    Alright I will check it out.

    This is what I was trying to post but it’s not appearing, it’s more indepth:

    Google
    CAMERA: The Silence of the New York Times

    My ex was from the Middle East. For years I heard about the Islamic fundies, what they were up to, the history of all the factions warring in Lebanon, etc. until my eyes glazed over. On the morning of Sep. 11, 2001, when it became clear what had occurred at the WTC, my first thought was: This is what that crazy fooker was talking about all that time…

    I guess my point is, sometimes the truth is hard to take, but then there’s a moment when reality comes banging on your door and if you don’t answer, the door comes crashing down anyway.

  • Patrick Henry

    I think the Jews have alot more Monuments and Historical and Media coverage over the Events in Germany during the 1930′s and 1940”s..during the “Holcost” than the Vastly Larger Number of Victims “PURGED”..by the Marxist~Leninist Revolutionarys (TERRORISTS) of Russia and China who Murdered over 100 Million Men…Women and Children… in THAT HOLOCOST..

    Over 95% of thr Communists in ther Bolshevik and Menshevik Partys were JEWISH…and The Founders of ther Communist Revolution Karl Mark and Vlad Lenin…were both Jewish..

    Interesting bit of History and History picking and Means of choosing whose Story it Decides to tell..

    I doubt if many Victims of COMMUNISM own the Media..and can Influence public Thinking..

    IMO…

    Oh….and which of Gods Children Shouted…Cricify him…Crucify Him…???

  • justsomeone

    What I’m about to say is not meant to be apologist for any barbarity that may have been committed by any member(s) of the IDF, however it would seem difficult to understand these recent conflicts without acknowledgment that there’s also a strong escalating demographic component at play in the stated goals of Islamic militancy. Sometimes I think Israel feds into this when it releases hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for several dead IDF bodies.

  • Patrick Henry

    I wrote a Song about that Smitty…

  • NCgirl

    “All armies are young men and women.” Yes, but with OLDER men and women telling them what to do I grew-up right next door to a very large army base. I know very well how many young people are serving. Don’t patronize me.

  • riverplate

    Every army in the world has committed such abuses. What is shocking is that the Israeli commanders appear willing to condone such horrific conduct.

    Shocking, yes. Surprising, no. Show me a case where any army’s command structure got genuinely angry when their soldiers killed non-combatants.

    Look at My Lai — one of the worst massacres of women and children by professionally-trained soldiers in modern history. The commanders responded with cover-up, not condemnation. And Calley got off even easier than Lt. R, in terms of jail time per victim.

    Look at Iraq. Our army didn’t even keep track of how many civilians they killed.

    Wars usually kill more civilians than soldiers. Don’t expect the generals to say that’s immoral.

  • LandOLincoln

    And when cars run out of gas, and there’s no way to refill the tank–given the Israeli embargo of supplies into Gaza–then how well do those car chargers work, genius?

  • LandOLincoln

    No, I”m not kidding you. Just answer the questions.

    Start with the definition of fascism.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    Fascism is an authoritarian nationalist ideology focused on solving economic, political, and social problems that its supporters see as causing national decline or decadence.[1][2][3][4] Fascist governments typically seek to prepare a nation for armed conflict with other nations, to defend itself or to expand its state to allow for the growth of a nation. Fascists aim to create a single-party state in which the government is led by a dictator who directs a nation towards collective unity by requiring individuals subordinate the pursuit of self-interest to serve the interests and welfare of the collective: the state for Italian Fascists, the Aryan race for the Nazis.[5] [6][7]

    Fascist movements commonly oppose: communism, conservatism, democracy, individualism, internationalism, liberalism, pacifism and laissez-faire capitalism.[8] [9][10][11][12][13][14]

    Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II, there have been few self-proclaimed fascist groups and individuals. In contemporary political discourse, the term fascist is sometimes used as a pejorative word.

  • Patrick Henry

    I think all of those defending the Israeli side of this War are missing the Point that Colonial Lang Made and Larry and others are making… Simple…Yes…Hamas is a “Terrorist” Group that has and will to Blow up Women and Children with Its Bombs and suicide Bombers…

    It is the Hamas Fighters that Israel should be after…But…due to the lack of DISCLIPINE in the IDF that Col. Lang is Pointing out…which should be maintained by the IDF NCO’s…(Sgts and Commanders) the IDF Demonstrates that it is no Better than the Hamas ..or Hezbollah..or other Terrorist Killer…and that the IDF are well armed and Equipped Fighters who are willing to give up the American Concept of Military Disclipline ..

    The IDF gets just as Emotionally Involved as the Musli against…They always come back with REVENGE…shooting..Bombing…and Killing ALL of thier Enemy..Men Women and Children…including shooting Children for “Sportbecause the IDF Folks are capable of the same Level of Hatred and Revenge as a Muslim Ji Haddist is…

    The Palestenian Civilians and Israeli Civilians are aLL Victims of the Propoganada that FUEL the Mutual Atrocitys and Inhumanitys we see noww…and that History has been Witness to since the Beginning…

    There is Nothing “CIVILIZED” about anyones War…

  • Patrick Henry

    The whole Point I think Colonial Lang was making is that He expects more from a Modern Army and American Allied Military Force like the IDF than for them to demonstarte over and Over that they are willing to Lower themselves the point of Retaliating to what HAMAS and Muslims JiHaddists do. by using thier Massive Firepower to blow up schools, hospitals, or for thier Commanders and NCO’s to participate in or Condone shooting Women and Children out of revenge and for Sport…or to show total Disregard for the Civilians ..by suCH Acts…The IDF are using a Modern Army for Terrorists Acts of Revenge of thier Own on the Civilian Populations caught in the middle of this BLOOD REVENGE War…

    Using the thinking of some of the Pro Israel Posters here…The United States should be NUKING NW Pakistan..to make sure we get Bin Laden…

    Civilians are always The Victims in Gang War Crossfires..ju.st like Larry said about Mexico..no Difference…between them and the IDF and Hamas…

  • Strawberrybitch

    Thank God you’re not in the military.

  • meme

    Also on BBC and CBC, don’t forget!

  • meme

    Bush was pushed by Cheney and they were both scared of the “shadow government”that ordered both the 9/11 holocaust and the Iraq/Afgani “wars”to gain back their fascist imperialist dominance.
    Webster Tarpley’s “Synthetic Terror” and his Obama biographies are the best. Incredible how Obama i just a puppet, a FACE LIFT on American foreign policy…and a pawn of the Ford Foundation (his mom worked there and BHO worked for its satelites in Ill.) Brezinsky and the IMF. Why did they go to Iraq? Dollar currency tied to oil….next will be Sudan attacked to get Chinese out–on “human rights pretext”! Israel and the Muslim world will not be as relevant. Obama wants war in Afganistan and Pakistan as outlet to antagonize Russian pipe lines….ugly…
    Obama will be far more catastrophic than Bush…

  • Strawberrybitch

    It’s good to talk to someone who enjoys history as much as I do. Trust me. I used to feel like the scary folks attacking you (much like the Obots that attacked us). But then like a true liberal, I started asking questions. And I didn’t like the answers I found when I started poking around. I was forced to question deeply held beliefs and start seeing things from a different perspective. Painful, but I grew as a thinking person.

  • mary

    Mary
    The invasion of Lebanon was totally unwarranted and all it accomplished is another generation of Hezbollah fighters prepared to destroy Israel! Again it was done for Israeli domestic consumption. It’s a shame Israel does not appreciate (never has) that its hawkish stand is not conducive to any long-term solution in the middle east. On the contrary, it promotes further destabilization in an already tumultuous region, and makes peace an ilusion. One of Fascism’s most infamous characteristics is its degrading and dehumanizing treatment of its women citizens. Obama I agree represents just a “face lift” for the US foreign policy to expand to Afganistan and launch bases permanently but warring with Pakistan and antagonizing China and Russia is a very dangerous game and the Obambi puppet hasn’t got a clue he’s been played..far more scary than Bush and I really can see Barry reading his goat stories to kindergarten kids while Rome burns….

  • stodgie

    israel is losing the media and pr for sure this round.

  • Strawberrybitch

    Yup.

  • stodgie

    there was the story of the former hamas member now living in california whose father is a leader in hamas on fox the other night. he said what turned him was the killing of fellow hamas members in prison. hamas is a terrorist organization period.

  • stodgie

    thanks carteh! you thinking and writing skills are very evident.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    LOL but where are Land O Crap and CAIRy Mary when the truth is spoken in an intelligent, rational manner? (crickets)

  • stodgie

    i thought the same thing! hehehe

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    Yes, I’m sure I do. Your definition comes from Stormfront, no doubt. Charming.

  • Welcome Back Carteh

    No one human life is more valuable than another, and that has never been an argument of Israel’s. The Palestinians elected a government that is also a widely recognized terrorist group committed to wiping Israel off the map. Given the tone of your comments, you’re fine with that. Well, Israel is not. Get help.

  • http://www.wewillnotbesilenced2008.com OBAMA IS A FRAUD

    LMFAO…thank you for the “get help” comment. It’s like being on another planet reading these sick azz posts from these two freaks.

  • Lisa Hinman

    This is a heart warming video of Jewish and Palestinian Drs. saving a life.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjqm5tzIwIQ

    Larry,

    by all your post and comments, I get the feeling that you don’t like Israel.

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