If You Can Find a Comparable Video?

If that were my child, or my child’s school, I would be out of my mind with grief and anger.

Now, being somewhat naive, I guess, I would have assumed that the U.N. school was off-limits. Apparently not.

Sorry Larry, couldn’t finish it. Made it through about two minutes. Those were children missing body parts. This is not okay. I don’t give a shit what anyone thinks of Hamas. If someone even dares to defend this shit they need serious fucking help, not to mention a punch in the gob. Those children did nothing to warrent that kind of death. They are babies. Another human being’s gift from God. But like Larry said, fair is fair. I’ll be waiting for comparable footage.

yes fair is fair.

We need to have accurate information about what is happening on both sides.

oh that is awful. i am forcing myself to watch the whole thing…they can’t escape it.

both sides have got to stop.

What will it take for the Israeli military to stop calling ALL these people terrorists and look in the mirror–just once? Do they have no limit?

Thank God for the BBC’s reporters. At least they still know how to do their jobs, horrible as it may be.

Sorry Larry but you got fooled again.

“This video is from September 23rd 2005, and was taken in the Jabalya refugee camp in the northern Gaza Strip. A Hamas pick-up truck carrying Qassam rockets detonated by mistake during a Hamas rally, leaving at least 15 killed and dozens more injured.”

This was all over the web just a few days ago.

From what I read in the Canadian papers, it was reported that Hamas fired rockets from within the school…a civilian shield tactic. I do not know if we are actually getting the truth from both sides??

WHERE ARE THE VIDEOS OF IRAQI CHILDREN BEING KILLED FOR THE PAST FIVE YEARS? WHY DID CNN/NBC/ABC/CBS AND PRESS MEDIA REFUSE TO SHOW THEM? THOUSANDS IRAQIS WERE SLAUGHTERED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION. BUSH IS A WAR CRIMINAL. WHY DID THE DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS REFUSE TO IMPEACH THIS WAR CRIMINAL?????

I’m not watching that video. But I do admire Larry Johnson for having the courage and the persistence to keep addressing this.

I wish more people could see the shades of gray involved in the Israeli/Palestine situation. So many people seem to want to remain rigid in their perceptions.

As I said, it was allegedly of the school. My point is the human cost. How is that being “fooled?”

I guessing, since the images are blurred that they were using the school as cover to fire rockets. I noticed the second time around that at 2:29, 3:14, 4:51, 5:34 into the clip there were hammas soldiers among those killed and then at about 9:10 a truck with a mount for firing rockets which was destroyed. It doesn’t make it right, as I see nothing right with the whole situation, only power and hate and it will only really end when something horrific happens.

Millie

The CBC (Canadian Broadcast Corp) is one of the BEST sources of unbiased journalism there is. I believe they are covering this with special reports. Have to check.

This is barbaric. War is a barbarian act. The Second World War HAD to be fought to preserve our freedoms. But since then, where has the Moral Authority gone? What has happened? All War is now fought for Greed and Power! DIPLOMACY is the only way to peace. Let’s hope Hillary works hard to resolve this mess that Butcher Bush has left us with! His assets should be confiscated and given to the People! Impeachment proceedings must start…

MLB

You are wrong! Quit your trolling, boy! Check your BBC and al Jaheera and you’ll see.

Larry, there’s no doubt that the images are horrific. But I read that the AP had two local Gaza residents [who withheld their names for fear of reprisal] who confirmed that mortars were being fired from the school’s vicinity.

War is horrific. War is wholesale death. I hope there’s a resolution to this sooner rather than later.

But both sides are to blame for the carnage. Israel, who has superior fire power and has reached the end of its rope and Hamas who is suicidal with their own lives and the people they pretend to represent.

If these images remind us of anything, it should be how horrific war is and how important, absolutely crucial it is for the world to take a stand in resolving this on-going, bloody confrontation and find a way out, a long-term peace process, for all concerned.

Pointing fingers and assigning blame doesn’t do it. God help us to find a way. For all our sake’s.

I think most of them speak and think from fear, even those who like to think of themselves as brave.

And those in the military unable to think it through, unable to understand the greater world wide dynamics of asymmetric war, can only suggest more violence, the absolute WRONG thing to do.

Brilliant, courageous generals are rare, that’s why I enjoy listening to Wesley Clark on occasion, I dont always agree with him, but he seems to get it.

And over the past eight years I forgot the US still has the abilty to produce generals of that sort — not perfect, but certainly intelligent enough to understand complex situations.

As someone (not me) recently said on another site:

Israel is a thuggish, apartheid country that needs to be brought–forcibly–into the modern century and decide that it will either join the common, decent, democratic human family, or perish. There is no other solution to this problem. And the two-state solution (which some Israelis favor) is just more of the same, with the same problems of territory and land and water rights–only a one-state solution will work. As to Israeli fears that allowing Palestinians full citizenship–and most important, the right of return for all Palestinian refugees–will lead to reprisals and backlash, all we can say is, ye have reaped the whirlwind.

and another said

…the US does not support Israel. It supports the most reactionary, right-wing, hardline factions of Israeli politics.

and yet another said

From the oppressed to the oppressors in two generations…

Finally,

We’re all Palestineans now.

I said that.

********

As for the video, yes MLB, I’ve read that as well, and it’s probably true. I understand the Israelis are not allowing journalists–or much of anything else–into Gaza, but if there were footage of the bombed UN school, do you imagine that it would be different?

Yes, “assigning blame, pointing fingers won’t do anything” You are right Peggy Sue.
I don’t like the idea of Hamas using their own children and families as “soldiers of God” and letting enemy forces bomb them to pieces. I view this by Hamas as “cowardly”. They may view it as “heroic” or god-prompted. I still think that it follows islamist/muslim fundamenatalist’s primitive tactics or mentality to use their kids and schools as shields! But this does not excuse Israel for its open barbarism. They’ll accomplish nothing by it.
Israel will receive international scorn, same as Bush dubious American military policies did. This was in fact Bush’s parting gifts to his hawk-friends in Israel who’re sponsoring this terror! Shame on Bush for giving these unthinking power-hungry morons the right to brutalize.

Yes, hurry…let’s find those.
I find it sick that people want to play
youtube checkers on here.

Larry,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWP0GU0wVSk

UN: “Israel knew they were bombing a school”

We’re all Palestineans now.

Palestinians. Can’t spell when I’m rattled.

Larry,

Israel needs to be criminally prosecuted for their War Crimes in Gaza.

As much as I agree with the sentiment in regard to the US neocons and their support of the WORST Israel has to offer, the Israeli people are still victims, too, Jewish people all over the world still suffering from some of the most vial of anti semitism.

Personally, I dont get hating Jewish people for what some of their weaker leaders do. WE don’t hate the Germans for what Hitler did, (but then the Germans admitted wrong doing, justice adminstered at the very least, through Nuremberg).

The Arab leaders oppress and exploit the Palestinians, too, this should always be a part of the discussion.

It’s always the civilians who pay.

vile, sorry, not vial.

Larry,
We are at a paradoxical moment in history. The world has turned against Israel and the US for allowing this carnage whether it be in Lebanon or Gaza today. That’s one reason we have terrorism!
If Israel didn’t have the strategic importance as it does the US would surely have stopped these kind of war crimes years ago.
We need to just start calling a spade is a spade.

Israel is the 51st state of the US and is an outpost isolated like West Berlin.
The future is very grim for solving this crisis.
Without Israel America will lose it’s strategic sphere of influence and the middle east.
With Israel we are insured eventual Armageddon.

LandOLincoln, all I did was point out that this video was of deaths caused by Hamas rockets, and not the IDF. I was responding to Larry’s challenge to find similar video of damage caused by Hamas rockets.

In the end, people believe what they want to believe.

Just as a postcript to my initial post, there’s an interesting post by Illana Teitelbaum, a Jerusalum reporter featured at Huffy-Po. And yes, I’m sure she has a bias. Afterall, she’s living in the region. The piece is entitled, “Photos from Israel That You Won’t See on the News.”

Link is here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ilana-teitelbaum/photos-from-israel-that-y_b_155256.html

If we’re going to be fair and balanced then we should be reading everything. Even when it’s wildly unpopular.

Yep, Wes Clark gets it for sure. I wish Obama was bright enough to put him in some high level position.

Are you suggesting there’s a pro-Palestinian bias in the news media? LOL

Spot on, Moss, spot on.

I hold out the hope–foolish as it surely is–that the reason Obama is keeping Gates as SecDef for the time being is because Wes won’t be eligible for that position until 2010.

This is from Al Jareeza;

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/20091781054779625.html

Sometimes Hamas soldiers hold families at gun point and make them stand in the line of fire to produce these types of graphic images. While the footage is horrific, we have to keep an open mind here that there is a possibility that Hamas staged this tragedy. They are not above using their people as suicide bombers.

I say forget the sphere of influence. It is so not worth it.

Yes, Larry did say “I cannot verify this is the UN school,” in his article.

This is one of the major reason i advocate for a free press. When you don’t have a free press, you can guarantee that both sides will engage in propaganda for their cause…wouldn’t you?

Just because I call it propaganda doesn’t mean its false, just that it is catered for consumption to support their cause and propagate their ideas.

And the clip Larry posted is one that keeps getting pulled, so the sourcing starts breaking down along the “citizen journalist” lines.

You are correct. 3,000 missiles lobbed into Jewish communities in the past year.

A bit irresponsible trying to shape opinion with a video that you aren’t confident of the source either. Yes, you said allegedly but then state
that:
“If you can find a video of a Hamas rocket strike and the human carnage it caused in Israel
we will post that as well”

Larry, guess you just qualified the “Alleged” video before you were sure. Then try to dodge it by saying your point was ‘human cost’?
Sounded more like a video match to me.

Here are the search keyword TAGS for your video post also:

israel revealed exposed murder slaughter muslims innocent jihad hezbollah hamas death shariah jew mason america end sign video al jazeera footage rated teen satan hell fire blood bomb missile nuke it are is am jidf cowards venomfangx judhaism fake lies 9/11 conspiracy

The youtube poster,drgonboyx, seems really Pro American & unbiased as well…real professional site here.
No agenda here…look away.
Pathetic.

It is not youtube checkers, George. When you have a blackout on such tragedy both sides are concerned for their people. Wouldn’t you be?

And Larry’s point is…if you can find video showing what the people in Sderot and other towns have gone through, their voices count too!

I care about the citizens on both sides regardless of their leaders, and with the blackout of journalism, this is going to be how we find out what is going on.

And thanks MLB for pointing that out.

If anything, those in favor of calling Hamas out for its actions, have footage to show how the war is affecting these citizens.

Aka, making the case against Hamas…just got easier, no?

Peggy Sue,

“A friend of my husband who is in an elite unit in the army was once telling a story that happened to begin with, “It was after we had stopped a suicide bomber–”

And I broke in with, “You what? How often does that happen?”

My husband’s friend looked at me quizzically. “It happens all the time,” he said, as if that were obvious. “It just doesn’t make the news if they don’t manage to get through.”

This writer expresses the problem perfectly.

Hamas’s tactics reminds me of the BO campaign’s incessant use of the race card.

Hamas, unfortunately, takes this strategy to the nth degree, bartering not only with people’s reputations but with their lives. They are soulless cowards and have no compunction about sacrificing their own children, their wives, their people to gain a psychological advantage.

It is barbaric.

But no matter how horrific the images, I have no sympathy for Hamas. They have brought this on themselves and on the Palestinian people. IMHO, Israel has no choice but to defend and protect themselves.

Sorry, but IMO that’s pretty specious reasoning, MDB.

Clearly Larry was asking for footage of the damage Hamas rockets had done to an Israeli target, not the results of the accidental explosion of a truckload of rockets during a rally, as I understand was the situation here (if indeed that’s what the footage shows).

Let it be qualified from with some sense of reliability. You & more than likely no one here can rush into being the qualifier.
Even news agencies wait on there own sources longer than this.
This is the king of hair trigger response that is the problem in the 1st place.

I’d love to see war crimes on both sides. Hamas is certainly guilty of war crimes too.

The Iraqi children killed by car bombs, IED’s, and suicide bombers?
The MSM didn’t show them because it would have made our reason for being there a tad more valid and that would not have elected The Kenyan.
Next question

Completely agree with you.
Sourcing is much easier when a reputable service can have access. That isn’t happening now. Citizens will post what they see if no credible journalism can take place.

Except Israel isn’t defending themselves, they are the aggressor. On Nov. 4, they killed 6 Palestinians in a Gaza raid, breaking the cease fire agreement. The rocket attacks from Hamas began AFTER this event. Israel is to blame for this conflict.

and yes…if we are being shown Gaza attacks…and not being shown what is happening to Sderot and other towns…then it is one sided.

I applaud Larry’s asking of us to tell both sides.

Me, too.

Why was he thrown under the Obama bus?

I was thinking of all the intelligent officers in the military, and the first thing that came to mind was an image of those who supported Clinton in the primary.

I would love to read their take on this crisis, and their solutions, always something to learn, I hope we see something.

Thanks Larry, this is awful, it’s barbaric. I am a mother and grand mother. I don’t know how would’ve reacted if these were my children. I guess I can understand why some of them become suiside bomers.

Your still qualifying it.
Truth telling, you seem a little
too intrerested in Americans getting bogged down in your peoples homeland soap opera than
truly caring about an understanding on truthful and unbiased terms.
Someone show a credible source of time,place,..who shot the vid.. then the video can at least be assimilated as reliable info of where,when…
…I mean…c’mon. Serously?
I have to explain this?

STOP moralizing about this video. It’s horrific for sure. This is within a context, it called WAR. If you can’t get your brain around it, then you have to be so delusional that you have the stupidest idea of what war does. Rent a war movie and watch it, may be your fucking brain and all that talk of high moral ground shit will make you come back to earth. If your brain can’t digest the realities of war then you don’t belong on earth.

Wasn’t all the peace processes put in place before none of us were born supposed to prevent shit like this? War is war and this is what happens in war. Hamas and the Israelis have chosen the path of war. Get with the program.

Do you have a source for that remark?

I think this is exactly what the War Mongers wanted…and the Military Industrial Complex’s must be Happy about the Assurance of the Profit charts going up like a Bottle Rocket ..

President Buash seemed to do everything He could to Keep Tensions High and the USA Bogged down in Wars..and his Comments have done nothing but Create tension..Hatred and Conflict…

Thgis situation does nothing to redue tensions and will Create more Hatred and Help Justify further slaughter and part of that anger will be directed toward to United States.for Green Lighting the Gaza Attacks..and slaughter….

All other Muslims will more angry..including Bin lADEN ..The Ji Haddists…and even the modrates…No matter what the Political heads of ` State say..in Muslim Countrys..

Bush Policys assuered high oil Prices..Our busted Economy..Hugh debt…Disrespect around the World..Assured Military Spending..and alot more hatred for the United states and Israel..

Scenes like Larry Posted could develop again in the United States…I fear…

It is no Wonder…with scenes like this..Why Muslim Passions are stirred to Hysterical and fanatical levels of hatred…Psychological Warfare..

Mankind is easliy Made into the Worst Killer of All..

For What..??

In the main, I agree with your assessment, Mary but it is my view that what is happening is a “Last straw” scenario here.
Visualize Popeye when he says, “Thats alls I can stands… I can’t stands no more!”
I wish Israel would figure a better way to keep itself from being bombarded too, but they have a legitimate right to ensure their own safety.
No amount of argument can make me swallow the indiscriminate bombardment of Israel.
If no one decries that, then why bitch about Gaza?
How can one be OK and the other wrong?
So many of you are leaving that out of your thought processes. If your words or position is to have value, ya gotta try to apply it equally.
You can condemn Israel all you want but if your next breath doesn’t condemn in greater intensity, the acts of Hamas by exposing their people to this, then there is no balance and the equation becomes a measurement of bigotry.
I’m done for the night…
see ya

I am not seeking to qualify this or any other video.

I am stating that we have a need for quality journalism. How is that qualifying it?

And I’m stating that when you don’t get your sources from reliable sources, people will find their own UNRELIABLE sources.

politely, seriously…how is this “qualifying”?

Larry, you are a piece of work. What is the point of asking us to find an example of Hamas rocket strikes in Israel causing as much loss of life and limb as an accidental Hamas rocket strike on their own people.

I am only pointing out that your whole premise is wrong. It does not take much googling to find that this video is misrepresented. Sure you said allegedly but your readers seem to ignore that part. Read the responses of the people who are completely willing to believe this misrepresentation. I don’t really expect a retraction of your alleged challenge.

Get with the program….. Hamas chose this!

Then I guess your OK with defeat.
What is defeat?
A complete collapse in your way of life.

Iranian control over the middle east with the expansion of Islamic power world wide.

Imagine how God must feel — all those idiots, and a universe to run.

Everything you state has a conspiracy slant to it.
MSM of course has biased but you can also bet your ass that there many free-lanse journalist out there that will get footage whether anybody likes it or not.
Now assuming this is a citizen or footage from this or that scene is futile in the meanwhile.
I’m not TRYING to diqualify something.
It is horrifying video but of when and where? and by who?
In the meanwhile your stance on unreliable journalism is qualified sometimes and sometimes probably not.
Everything isn’t always a consistent
conspiracy or consistently unreliable.
Many people are hip on this idea of uniting the ‘Anything American is Bullshit’ people.

And that’s my basic point, Basil. Has been from the start.

It’s real easy for us, sitting safely in the US, to criticize Israel for this huge response. Of course, they’re superior in terms of wartime armaments. Of course, the killing of children is horrible. But we [Americans] are not sitting night after night, wondering when the next strike will come from Gaza. Okay, so you have a bomb shelter. Okay, so the Palestinians have been lousy shots. But the on-going terror is the strategy, particularly in the wake of the many suicide bombings of the past.

Don’t we remember those images??? Don’t remember the team that comes out to scape up bits of flesh to adhere to religious principles.

Talk about selective memory! And it wasn’t that long ago.

Is the plight of the Palestinian people untenable? Yes. But Hamas is suicidal, a bunch of power hungry thugs, who will stop at nothing, not even the destruction of their own people to meet their own ends–the complete obliteration of the Jewish people. Now you can argue that Hamas alone does not have the means to do that. But they certainly have the means of turning public opinion, inciting hatred and anti-semetic rhetoric. We’re seeing it and hearing it in the news and blogs [not this one] right now.

And I don’t think that’s purely coincidental.

If the UN ever had a reason to exist, it is to address problems like this. I don’t have a terrific sense of confidence in the organization. But the US cannot make this happen. We’ve tried; we’ve failed. It’s going to take the Arab states, the West and all countries who have a stake in a long-term resolution to pound this one out.

Do I have sympathy for Palestinian and Israeli citizens? God, yes. But I have absolutely no sympathy for Hamas, Hezbollah or any other of these jihadists who worship death.

Let them find their martyrdom. Let them rot in hell.

Right on, Zeke. the israel haters have been taken for suckers by Hamas and friends.

Hamas used that school as a weapons depot, shot rockets into Israel from there, and now have bamboozled you into thinking this is an Israeli massacre of some sort.

You want people firing rockets into your back yard, than continue to idiotic protesting of Israel looking to get some peace for their people.

“Everything you state has a conspiracy slant to it.”

What conspiracy?

I haven’t alleged any conspiracy.

Both Israel and Hamas have stated they do not want journalists in their zones of combat. Nobody conspired to do so, they simply stated it.

The causality of this blackout isn’t due to a conspiracy, but still results in people turning to their own seeking of information, which will often be inaccurate because they don’t know how to source, have peer review, etc.

And I didn’t say I wanted the MSM to be there, whatever that is. I don’t usually draw my sources from MSM. They are only part of the cacophony.

“assuming this is a citizen or footage from this or that scene”

By citizen journalists, I didn’t mean the person who took the footage, I’m referring to the countless YouTubers who keep posting footage in lieu of real information. And including the plethora of emails that are stacking up in my box from just normal people who want to know what is happening and can’t.

For instance, the role you are taking in this conversation is no different than many of the good editors I’ve worked with who ask me 1,000 questions: “where did it come from?” “and who said it?” “and who are they?”…and “did you assume that or do you have an actuality to cover that”.

This is vital examination, and I do thank you for raising the question.

So will there be an update regarding this video? It looks like it’s putting the blame on Israel when they are not responsible for this massacre. Hamas is. Can we find a comparable video? You answered your own question.

A local man, Ronen Edri, reached the site of the attack immediately after the rockets fell. He saw a boy with head and body wounds lying in the street and tried to give him first aid. “There was a great deal of hysteria all around,” he said. “People were screaming and crying from shock. I tried to stem the boy’s bleeding, and then Magen David Adom [ambulance] personnel arrived and took him away.”

“After the rocket fell, a man, maybe 20 years old, took the boy in his arms. He was in shock. He ran with the boy, he didn’t know what to do,” said Zina Shurov, 48, a neighbor.

“I saw one little child without his legs. We tried to help the other one but it was too late,” said neighbor Haviv Ben Abbo, who rushed to the scene when he heard the boom. “All our town is crying.”

September 29, 2004
On the eve of the Sukkot holiday, Yuval Abebeh, 4, and Dorit Benisian, 2, were killed by a Qassam rocket fired from Gaza into Sderot. 30 people were wounded in the admitted Hamas attack.

“We will keep firing rockets, we will continue jihad until all of Palestine is returned.”

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Security/4189.htm

These rockets have killed other Israeli children and they have landed in and near kindergartens in Israel and rockets have been fired from school yards in Palenstine (where Israel did not respond to a locked target a few years ago because the rockets came from a school).

The mutilated Israeli children mentioned above did not happen in the current conflict. Even so, Israel gets peppered all the time. They take hundreds and thousands of rockets and suicide bombers.

I guess the odds are good that one will not die in a border Israel town due to the lack of sophistication of the Qassam rockets. However, I would not want to sit in a Starbucks and have rockets land near me. The fact more Israeli children are not killed is only incidental to Hamas.

Well George Killing is Killing when it comes under the heading of the innocent. That’s the cost of war.

Stop complaining and go out find another video and maybe present that as well but MAKE SURE YOU CAN VERIFY IT, K….?

Personally can’t view it anyway and don’t want to , both sides upset me because this is what occurs, people who can not leave but just want to live end up dead.

And it just never ends. And yes we are drug into this , I am guilty by being an American. I have no say in what either side does in this conflict. Geeeeeshh I had no say in my own Damm vote for POTUS when we had people voting 2 or 3 times.

But if I support Israel then I’m the enemy of the Palestians , If I supported Palestians and their rights then I’m considered Anti-semetic? I’m in a no win situation that I have no control over.

And either way I’m blamed and hated.

“If your brain can’t digest the realities of war then you don’t belong on earth.”

Well pardon me, but I don’t believe any sane and compassionate person should allow their brain to calmly “digest the realities” of war.

yttik,

Thank you for saying that , which is my point , there are shades of gray in this situations.

I care about the people who just want a life on both sides.

But that is considered unacceptable to see there is 2 sides to every situation. And mistakes made by both.

I just feel I can’t express anything about it because I don’t know if I get the truth through the press regarding either side.

Why can’t they just send the leaders of each into a field with there guns and have a duel, leave the rest of us out of this.

And yes I mean us because we are judged by both sides here in the U.S. and in the Middle East.

“Why can’t they just send the leaders of each into a field with there guns and have a duel, leave the rest of us out of this. ”

Because most leaders are posturing assholes who would not put themselves behind their causes outside yapping.

Some Kings used to become king by being the leader on the battle field no matter, and yet others…well they ate grapes and let the children of the kingdom die.

October 31, 2007
Mortars fired into Israel from a school. The IAF had them in sight, but did not fire.

Here is an actual video:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3466387,00.html

The video of Hamas firing from a school is a few videos below from the video of Hamas (or Hamas approved) folks firing into an Israeli elementary school in 2007.

Agreed, both sides have made mistakes, part of war.

Both sides have legitimate gripes.

Both sides need to leave innocents out of it and face each other and solve this.

Until both sides are ready and how many decades does that take? Each missile causes another child or family member to “hate” and want revenge.

And keeps us in the middle arguing with each other as to who is right and who is wrong.

That’s pretty fair.
Accept that although there is problems with much of the MSM it as well in my opinion be regarded as 100% unreliable.
Then we succumb to believing in anything much of the time as a result.
Everything needs to be weighed with a brain.
Even in my jaded head I do not succumb to others jaded propoganda in the meanwhile.
Much of your point is well taken but videos like this should be just as criticized as the MSM since I see many hair trigger reactions before anyone knows where,when, by who…and the comes the investigation of cause and other investigative questions.
Just some sort of order should be kept up or every perception is vulnerable to chaos.
Thanks as well.

I consider that to be Very True…

I think HAMAS is a Criminal Organization..hell bent on Killing Jews…and they are Using Ji Had as an excuse fo thier TERRORISM…with its Disregard for Human Life..Including Men..Women..and Children even if they are thier own people..in this case by Using civilaians ..hospitals…schools and anything elese as Shield..

I think the JiHaddist Terrrorists get off on Killing..the more Inhumane and bizzare..The BETTR…to them..thats why they are called TERRORISTS…I think HAMAS is happy with scenes like the Above one posted by Larry..for its propoganda value..

I think these terrorist reason that if Suicide bombers can kill Themselfs for the JiHad..then any Muslim..Man..woman or Child should be a Martyr Too…even if they get killed by another muslim like Hamas Does..

The united states would do well to undwerstand the Depth and scope of this type of warfare..and should educate the PALESTENIAN Civilians..to the fact that they are being sold out by Hamas too…

I think Isreal is playing into Hamas Hands…as least from the Hamas perspective…which is beyond normal Logic..

IMO…

and I meant to say that I don’t think the MSM is 100% unreliable.
It is very biased and with the bipartisan wars going on the MSM people also should take into account that maybe unfortunately there is a competition that keeps all MSM from being all pro-Israel or all Pro-whatever.
Unfortunately though it has created a comfort channel lock for a lot of people instead of trying to decipher some sort of truth.
Time constraints in our lives make this a dangerous game for the media to be playing though.

Agreed George,

“my opinion be regarded as 100% unreliable”
Yes…but I use them just as a starter…remember how Russians had to learn to read Pravda? Reading NYTimes, WaPo, etc…requires that sort of skepticism.

Unforutnately unbiased not unfortunately Pro-Israel.
…having a time issue myself.

Most Islamic influence is peaceful. My husband is Muslim, I remain Christian. Our entire families love each other. We each believe our faiths cannot be separated from our upbringings. I can say for a fact those who paint all Muslims with the same brush stroke are careless.

Far as I hear, Ahmadinejad is hated by his people and will be out eventually. I know lots of Iranian people and they are lovely.

I am 100% sure that if my way of life ever collapses it will be because of my elected officials.

wow…powerful testimony. Thanks for sharing.

And I agree that my leaders are more dangerous for me.

Israel was closing down a tunnel into its sovereign to prevent a breach and the kidapping of its soldiers. I think the last kidnapping of Israeli soliers just resulted in the execution of the Israelis- not a good plan for kidnapping.

ILBlue, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

“Well George Killing is Killing when it comes under the heading of the innocent. That’s the cost of war.”
…Yes, I agree

“Stop complaining and go out find another video and maybe present that as well but MAKE SURE YOU CAN VERIFY IT, K….?”

See, this is exactly what I am talking about.
Home boy has already accepted this video and is asking me to quit complaing about authenticity and go out and find a video that contradicts this one when we can’t authenticate the time,place..etc.
This exactly what happens when people’s panties get in a bunch from emotional vids…they lose all logic.

..And yes the vid made me sick. Didn’t turn me into a bumbling psychopathic uninformed 3rd party idiot though.

IlBlue, I have no idea what the hell your point is.
“Stop complaining and go out find another video and maybe present that as well but MAKE SURE YOU CAN VERIFY IT, K…”

Exactly what I am talking about. Homeboy has his emotional panties in a bunch and wants me to compete with an unverified video. Meanwhile let’s all just yell “You do better then”
…what the hell. I find the video disgusting but it doesn’t turn me into a bumbling psychopathic uninformed 3rd party idiot either.

1. I don’t want to compete on this
2. I’m not the one with the site that has shown little responsibility.

Thank you for listening with an open heart and mind. It means a lot.

A Palestinian-American lawyer was involved in negotiatins about 10 years ago (too lazy to look up date) and he said the basic problem is how each side frames what they want.

I wants P to stop attacking and P wants I to admit that I was wrong in its existence and in expanding its borders in 1967 after the invasion of Israel.

This is simplistic, of course, but P feels like they are a people without an identity or land. So, generation after generation grows up feeling disjointed. This message has evolved into it position that civilian targets are OK and suicide bombers get rewarded.

The cartoons there even teach this. Very sad.

I wants to look forward and P wants to repair what it considers its harms from the past.

These viewpoints are so entrenched in the majority.

An aside: Funny that media tags Israel as the martyrs (boo-hoo- we were murdered in concentration camps). In reality, Palentine considers itself as the true martyrs.

IlBlue, what the hell are you talking about?

“Well George Killing is Killing when it comes under the heading of the innocent. That’s the cost of war.”

…Yes

“Stop complaining and go out find another video and maybe present that as well but MAKE SURE YOU CAN VERIFY IT, K….?”

Sorry I’m bringing you down man.
…Only in America.

“open heart and mind”.

The difference between hearing and listening.

Thanks Sonic Ninja Kitty.

Another fine example of Larry Johnson’s crack investigative skills. I’m sure that whitey tape will surface just as soon as he learns how to read a Youtube comment.

nice try, but you called it wrong.

Larry wasn’t trying to be “investigative here”, he was trying to state, if you have video that shows the attacks on Israel, it is fair that it be shared instead of only the pictures from Gaza.

I can see you aren’t interested in a realistic conversation, just a smear.

Is this part of your crack investigation?

Keep spinning for your master, it’s adorable.

You trolls really are an endless echo chamber. Please, get some new material. The “whitey tape” chant has run its course.

You’re boring!

funny, you are the only one of the two of us who even lives in a “master” paradigm.

I don’t have leaders. Do you?

it is the only substitute they have, since actually engaging in his various discussions wouldn’t be very effective. No worries.

Why DO they keep dragging out that Whitey Tape nonsense? Wow. I said it already…go back to Camp Fraudbama and change the playbook. YAWN.

Mary:

MLB is right!

I any War, the first casualty is always the TRUTH.

In all of these wars the Muslims put out a lot of fake film, fotogs and false press information from non existent sources.

With todays computer software it is fairly easy to do.

The American Web-sights have gotten very good a “busting” these fakes

The video on this thread is footage that has been around the internet of a 2005 Hamas “accident” for a couple of years now.

There was a lot of this “misinformation and Fotog material put out by Hezbullah in the 2006 war and the Mainstreams got burned when they ran with it..

To their credit, the Mainstreams, especially the A.P. seems to be much more professional this time around.

Once burned twice shy sort of thing.

The internet sights did a lot to expose and embarrass the Main streams last time around, especially a fake Newsweek cover story.

So far, They are not taking anything from either side on face value in this Gaza war.

And that’s a good thing.

If neither side can gain a propaganda victory it is a good thing because it removes at least one reason for going to war in the first place.

Al Jazeera and French 2 are in the tank for the Muslims and they have overplayed their hand so many times, EVERYBODY knows it.

There is a special shrug reserved for both of them by their “peers” in the Press.

Six months to a year and the real “Truth” will come out.

Until then take every thing you hear, read and see and divide by 7.

“Temptations page flys out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Hear water falls of pity roar
You feel the pain but unlike before
You discover that you’ll be
Just one more person crying
So don’t fear,
If you hear
A foreign sound to your ear.
It’s alright ma, I’m only sighing.

Oh God…I agree with you. But somehow here if you support Israel you get handed your ass and told you hate Muslims and/or Palestinians. Sigh. I support Israel and think Hamas gets what they deserve. I’ve read their charter and know who they are. I also think Israel is trying desperately to take a stand before Fraudbama the Jew hater gets into office. What a sad state this is and how much it is dividing this country. Although I will say this is a more Anti-Israel site than most. My friends and I stand by Israel and always will. I’m not sure that’s allowed here but I won’t be told that Israel caused this mess.

OIAF, if we can take this moment to find common ground….I have no problem with getting rid of Hamas. I just know that Hamas isn’t the totality of Palestinian support. That’s all.

If bad guys come to kill all Republican supporters..I won’t be taking the time to find my ballot.

Know what I mean?

My way of life is collapsing already. The bus I taking to the train station to go to and from work is being canceled as of January 21st. I am sure you think I should just go buy a car, but I cannot afford a car. Also I am blind in one eye so I could not drive it. Thanks to all the politicians who thought sending money to invade Iraq, money to support Israel and all kinds of other stupid things is more important than providing public transportation to American citizens.

Also I have no health insurance. I would have been homeless a long time ago if my children did not help me financially. And I am a college graduate, a third-generation Irish-American. How many others of us are being effected the same way because of our stupid politicians squandering tax payer dollars?

I dig you so I will say this…I never said I hate Palestinians. Never. I’m sorry if somewhere you got that idea. I can honestly say I don’t dig Hamas and I have done WAY too much research on who they are to respect them in any way. All I want is the truth. And I’m kind of shocked at all the Anti-Israel stuff. Wow..just…wow. They are fighting a group whose very CHARTER says “Islam will OBLITERATE Israel.” I’m confused on how that’s defensible and/or why people don’t accept that Israel has a right to retaliate. I’m so WTF right now.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were slaughtered by the Bush administration, and billions of dollars flushed down the toilet providing no-bid contracts to Halliburton, Blackwater and other war profiteers.

George:

“Youtube checkers” ??

Did you just make that up??

It’s an excellent term!

So I take it then you’re OK with continuing to get your news from a thoroughly discredited buffoon and the blowhards he handpicked to contribute to this sad excuse for a “political” blog?

1) It’s Larry’s blog. And it’s still America. Therefore he can post what he wants. We don’t all agree all the time, but that’s just how it goes.

2) If you people hate it here, why do you come around? Your friends at the Daily Kook probably miss you.

How dare you. There is a video upthread showing children with their limbs blown off and all you can say is “Where’s the whitey tape”? Please go have your gonads removed (preferably with a pair of vise grips) so that the rest of the gene pool cannot be contaminated with your heartless, stupid genes.

And I’m sorry if I treated you that way. One person here did finally admit they were anti-Arab. I appreciated their honesty. But in the passions, we start firing at each other.

I’m not anti-Israel. Jews didn’t come from Norway or from Xiao. Neither did they come from Mozambique or Botswana….its as if…there’s only one place they might have come from…ya think?

But…they aren’t the only ones who came from there because Palestinians, muslim and christian alike, didn’t come from Peru, or Seattle.

My phone bill just came in..and guess which country was the only long distance charges burden…10 to Sderot, 2 to TelAviv, and 2 to Ashkalon. Non were from Rafah or Ghazzah.

I would like you to hear my criticisms of the government as no different than I had for the US “war on terror”.

While I want Al-Qaida types to be arrested or killed, I know that terrorism is a tactic, not an identity. And it requires the correct response. It doesn’t take much to have another generation hate the hell out of you.

And I’ll say it one last time between us…I don’t know anyone here who supported Hamas. It is my case, and what I’ve read here that people are making a distinction between Palestinians and Hamas, no diff than saying ALL Americans are now Democrats because that’s who just won majority power in the US. (my apologies for comparing Hamas to DNC..well sorta…but its just because that’s who holds power). BushCheneyCo. held power here for 8 years and it didn’t make me a Republican.

I want us to cooperate for the best on both sides. I think we can. If we put our passion to protecting people on both sides who deserve protection, then we can arrive at a peace that they cannot right now.

It is my love for them that makes me want to.
Whatcha say?

Because it’s hilarious to watch the knots you all contort yourselves into trying to convince yourselves there’s any real value to the “reporting” that takes place here.

and yet…you are here.

So, if we are a shithole…then what sort of fecal matter are you attracted to?

Do you not see what this says about you?

Firing rockets from schools, taking cover in hospitals, turning away ambulances and holding the injured hostage, using ambulances to smuggle weapons, recycling bodies, hiding behind women and children… there is no end to what Hamas will do.

Yes of course I agree to that. I am Italian. That’s kind of close to being a Jew. When my father was still alive, we went to Passover dinners with all of his friends. He had a standing lunch on Fridays with all of his Jewish friends. When my father died, they stopped having the lunch. I live and work in Hollywood and came to LA when I was 15 to go to USC. I now can say that most of my friends are Jews. I’m just NOT going to a place of blaming them for this mess. I can’t. I don’t wish ill for the Palestinians, I know there are two sides, but I also am smart enough to have done my homework and, really, I’m just not ever going to get to the place of blaming Israel for this. If you and I can be friends and accept each other’s opinions, great. I just feel sick every time I read such Anti-Israel stuff here and it reminds me of my dead father who loved his Jewish friends, as I love mine and always will.

well I think you project a little here…because I don’t get my news here. I bring news to NQ.

I helped overturn the bogus attack on Clinton over the Ohio hospital story because it was false.

I don’t get my news from a single source.

If you have any real interest in news instead of flame wars, then you wouldn’t be here, since you think this is a “discredited buffoon”.

DO you get your news from “blogs”?
Have you ever called a Senate committee staffer to verify who the authors were behind reports, or done extensive research in the Lexis Nexis system?

You don’t exactly strike me as an I.F. Stone or George Seldes. And frankly, you haven’t shown much interest in dialogue. SO…what are you doing around here?

I always hesitate to call people troll here because, so what..if you comment, comment. But…really…what is it you want, Bang Up?

Do you want to be right? is that it? Pride got your tongue?

In what way is Israel looking forward when their entire claim to that land is that at one time how many hundreds or thousands of years ago their ancestors lived, or might have lived there? That is looking forward?

Not too bright, are you? It’s funny to me, as I stated. I’m attracted due to the humor factor. Over and over Larry and his compadres have proven themselves totally incapable of getting simple stories correct. The tape, the ACORN house that wasn’t the ACORN house (in which Larry, full of righteous anger, commented that he was positive it was the right house because he “matched it up with others on the street”) etc, etc. And yet you’re all still here, pretending there’s real knowledge to be gained from this group of crackpot conspiracy theorists and luddites. I’m here for the same reason any of the other people you call trolls are here; you’re re-god-damn-diculous.

Bang Up Job,

I feel sorry for scumbags trolls like you. I really do. I know that some day you will grow up, want your sad, pathetic vote back, and feel sorry for the ass you are. We are happy being here. If you aren’t…guess what? Until Fraudfreak takes office then this is a free country. Move on.

MO was asked about the “whitey tape” by a reporter before even Larry brought it up on his blog.

Now go back to your DU koolaid drinking Obama worshiping hangout. Your stench is God awful.

My GOD…you are a FRAUDBAMA supporter and you claim to seek the TRUTH? Do you know what a complete fool that makes you? Come on…you have to know that the more intelligent wing nuts are already unhappy with the Fraudbama vote. You’ll get there. When you do, let us know.

Actually Patrick Lang’s blog supported Obama and many Obots were commenting there. I stopped reading it for some months.

Yup, you’re a heartless prick.

Yes, MK, I have vivid memories from the nightly news reports of suicide bombers blowing up Israeli restaurants with wedding parties and bus loads of civilians; lots of body parts in those films too.

In our own civil war, there were atrocities as well. Three generations of us knew Yankees were to be avoided as barbarians. It sometimes blows my mind that this had been imparted to me as a child and I don’t even remember how. Even after the fighting stopped, the financial war continued. It took a long time for the South to recover. On the other side they thought of all Southerners as “slavers”, conveniently forgetting that slavery was a nationwide disease. My point is that even when the slaughter stops, it will be generations of hatred before it is washed from memory.

OIAF. I don’t feel I’ve been handed my ass [at least not yet ;0)].

But when it comes to Hamas, I agree with you. Pretending Hamas is a victim is like comparing a rabid hyena to a pussy cat. Does not compute.

But the Palestinian people, the children in particular, the men and women who have no voice for fear of reprisal or because of scant opportunity, they are victims. And though it’s an unpopular view, I think the Israeli citizens are victims of their place in the political landscape, generational history and their incredible determination to survive and audacity to thrive. How dare they not fold in the middle and cry “uncle.”

If we don’t support other democracies then we might as well throw in the towel, and tell the terrorists [Hamas, Hezbelloh, et al] to: Come on down and sing Kumbuya until we run out of breath [which we surely will].

I’m not about to do that. Not here. Not anywhere else!

Huh? Well, No.

I don’t support any politicians, they’re all liars and thieves. You would have noticed, had you retained any comprehensive reading skills from your youth, that I didn’t mention Obama a single time. But if that’s the mindset you have to project onto any detractors in order to discount their views, have at it. You wouldn’t provide me any amusement if you were a rational human being.

Peggy Sue,

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I guess this is a really touchy subject for all of us. So odd. It’s so clear to ME what the right thing is, but then there’s this whole other side that I don’t understand. God help us all that we get through the challenges facing not only this country, but the entire world now. I wish I felt more comfortable with the people manning the lifeboat. LOL.

The problem with many of the reports on casualties is the failure to distinguish between Hamas gunmen or operatives and Palestinian civilians. Here is the original source from the UK Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away.

Hamas intended to take advantage of the ceasefire and break through a border checkpoint by killing guards. This was a pinpoint operation intended to prevent an immediate threat, and no civilians were killed on either side. Hamas has since continued raining rockets into Israel.

Oh, no. Hamas has been bombarding Israel with rockets for the past 3 years…Where have you been?

Ignore the trolls. They don’t deserve time or attention. Of course, I’ll have to follow my own rule now :0).

I’m terribly dull minded, and yet you babble with me.

“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference”

now don’t confuse the genius. He’s solivng the wurls prolems.

If Iran got nukes, what are the chances they would give them to Hamas?

It should to avoid it at all costs. War is a failure of diplomacy.

TT- “So, if we are a shithole…then what sort of fecal matter are you attracted to?
Do you not see what this says about you?”

Truthtelling- Not trying to get in the middle of this one but insults may not be your forte.
Maybe that’s a good thing. Still has a very humorous quality though.

I mean that last comment light hearted TT.

yep!

I’m even better with metaphors!

Israel’s entire claim to that land is that before WWII, the world Jewry was not safe as a diaspora. No country would protect Jews better than they could defend themselves: Never Again.

“yep!

I’m even better with metaphors!”

Hah!! Now that’s F’n Funny.
That overrides the insult anyway.

100%, Welcome Back. And if you read the placards at that Florida demonstration, that’s exactly what several demonstrators were calling for:

Nuke Israel!

Yeah, Hamas is love and peace. Please!

Okay, now it’s begun.

I’m way past my bedtime. But Fox News just reported [1:43 am] that Hezbollah has fired rockets into Israel.

This is rolling out of control. If you still go church, you better start lighting candles.

This is God awful!

Here are some pictures.

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/israel_and_gaza.html

They are graphic:
#18 (and #30) is very powerful to me. how easy we forget the pets.
#23 shows an Israeli victim

all very upsetting to me.

Reports on CNN just said there is no guarantee this was Hezbollah, but could be splinter factions of Palestinians in the refugee camps. Many forget how many Palestinians have been displaced.

And that Fox reported it was Hezbollah was an assumption based on it coming out of Lebanon, but CNN accurately pointed out, there were 4 rockets, and unlike Hamas, Hezbollah has 1000s. It is a much more heavily armed entity.

Either way, the last thing we need right now, is another front to this violence.

I said what I wrote is highly simplistic. I did not mean to give a compliment to Israel by the “looking forward” comment. Basically the negotiator only told us that Israel did not want to talk about the past during negotiations whereas the Palenstinians wanted to discuss the past.

Read this link from Prairie Pundit

http://prairiepundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/hamas-forcing-palestinians-at-gunpoint.html

Interesting point. And so lets look at that. Many conflicts involve past issues encroaching on the present. But when called to task, depending on how the outcome might be fore one’s own cause, you might have to shift from the past to the future if it benefits you to do so.

In a recent couples spat, a good friend of mine was going over how his wife did something earlier in the year that seemed to undermine him. He was stuck in the past. So when she went to deal with it, I believe with sincerity, he wouldn’t let her solve it. So she went to the past too, because she too had a few times he undermined her. Suddenly, and almost without notice…he wanted to say, “yeah, but that’s yesterday!”

WOW
How did he suddenly decide the past didn’t matter? Because he lost his case when it was Past V Past. And both of them might have done well to simply let present be present.

OIAF, very well said. I agree.

I agree, very well said.

And we have more in common that not.

I don’t view criticizing the government of Israel for things as being anti-Israel. I criticize my own government, federal, state, and local all the time. I’m a very familiar voice to about 10 congressional numbers from years of my activist work.

I’ll never be anti-Jew, and I consider anti-Arab to be no different a form of anti-Semitism as as those who are anti-Jewish. Because, Semite comes from Sēm; a greek variation to refer to those who came from Shem, the son of Noah.

This will seem off topic, but not for but a sec. My main criticism of William Ayers came from the fact he resorted to violence when the SDC were protesting. He decided to break his own principles about violence and engaged in it. This was the lazy man’s way out.

This is what I feel any time violence becomes the answer unless it happens in a clear moment of self defense. I’ve been training in wuyi for almost 20 years and long ago learned what the fine line between self-defense and over correction and revenge (aka justice in my perverted morality as a youth) were. Self-Defense is a vital part of living. But in some cases it goes from being self-defense to offense because there isn’t as much danger as the reaction details.

Case in point:
I was about 19 or 20 at a pool hall I used to visit quite regularly when a bully tough guy decided to beat up my friend who had snookered him out of some money. Clearly my friend wasn’t going to fight and the guy butted through my crowd of friends to get him. I whipped the shit out of him and it was wrong. Why? Because I wanted it too. Once he stepped up and got in Glen’s face I had all I needed to launch my own pent up shit on him.

In that same model, I hear rhetoric from all sorts of groups who claim the moral high ground in their causes. They are always the victims no matter what. And it is because many of them telegraph their intentions that I have to question whether it is really self-defense or…as I coined it in my life, bully baiting.

Now, Hamas is bully baiting clearly.
Israel is not bully baiting.

But, I am in agreement with Larry J on the grounds that tactically, any action must be completely mindful of long term consequences and volatility.

In a different scenario just a few years ago, I chose to avoid a conflict that may have appeared to an ignorant person as backing down to a bully on my block. But I didn’t do that. I realized that he and I would be in perpetual conflict if I chose to engage him that day. And I chose to see long term. Eventually I couldn’t just ignore him so I took the opportunity to engage him with what I considered at the time, “perfect courage”. What is that? The ability to deal with things without fear of consequences including and up to bodily injury. And he…didn’t know what to do.

Without me being all hostile right back, he didn’t have much to chew on. Without my masculine bullshit challenging his masculine bullshit, he didn’t have his usual scenario.

Now this method won’t always work, and sometimes it’s pretty fucking immoral to not engage in physical resistance to violent men (or women).

But the greater point would be, I considered longer term wiser options that considered my neighbors and kids. Then it considered that he was miserable. I found out his father died of aids, his brother was in prison, he had been in prison, and his mother had been deported.

Well blow me down…..He was a hurting human.

Now, I don’t think groups like Hamas deserve negotiations in the least. But reality dictates something entirely different because like it or not, they have established power there.

So, if I attack them, I have to think of my consequences.

1. I can go full force and risk alienating potential popular support when finished (the way we did in Iraq by disbanding the police, displacing Baathists, and not being able to distinguish between shia and sunni.
If you can’t figure out who your friends and enemies are, you’re lost. But if you create more enemies because of your action, when other options were available, you’re a fool.
2. I can apply the appropriate solution to the problem, (aka calculated response) and make sure that I don’t give an enemy the opportunity to continue attacking or to gain sympathetic support.
3. I can ignore the threat and see if it passes because no response was given (not an option in some cases like rockets firing into Sderot)

And the list can go on.

But any way I choose, I have to make sure I really consider much more than my immediate gratification, the high-five of my peers, and the power trip a potential victory can give.

I have a very diverse family that has no arabs in it, not in at least 34 generations plus I’ve charted. However, I’m descended from Zorn, Straud, Klauberg, Leiber, and Millers.

Equally I’m descended from Bohemians who fought off the Romans and were from the first country invaded by the little Austrian prick named Adolph. Nobody stopped him from seizing one of my homelands. Nobody stopped his aggression on the Czech over his fabrications of “terrorists” after the Reichstag.

Even in this last week when I expressed my grave concerns about the level Israel would take in retaliation, I went absolutely apeshit when a now former friend said, “well look, you gotta understand Jews” and proceeded to engage in just blatant anti-Jewish nonsense based on how his boss acts, or his company owners, and all sorts of people who fit his stereotype of jews.

There was no appealing to him to make distinctions between assholes of every background, and his determination that Jews were just generally bad. I was stunned. We’ve never crossed this bridge. But when we did…I burned it on the way out. I can’t think of being friends with someone who would say such a thing.

Yet, when I come here and express my disgust for the same ignorant treatment of Palestinians, I’m branded anti-Semite or proHamas, when that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Granted, my anger got me and I started popping back, and then we all have to get into ego battles. Mea Culpa, my bad, please…forgive me. But I’m passionate about human life. I value human life in Gaza and Tel Aviv equally, no conditions.

I will tell you clearly that there are only a few types of people whose lives I have no worth in. Rapists, molesters, Dick Cheney, and Tom Cruise (just joking..about TC, but he’s weird).

I mostly don’t value murderers, but…having known 3 people on death row who really converted their hearts before death, I have hope for some. Frankie Parker is such an example if you ever look him up.

OIAF, I’m with you in being Anti-Hamas. I might be pretty close to you about Fatah as well, though I see them as more moderate, though arrogant. But I’m not anti-Palestinian, and I’m not anti-Israeli or anti-Jew.

You’ve done a great job at earning my respect. It isn’t given lightly either. You earned it. You fought your fight, but then opened the door when you saw I wanted the same thing. This…is a great sign for progress on such issue, I believe.

The thread is now longer than the Mahabharata, but..you and the others here are worth it.

Let’s see if we can get more out of the dialectic than our snarks.

Thanks for your conversation, and all the other NQ here.

Here’s an oar. and a bottle of scotch!

We have all seen the propoganda the media can portray.

Violence begets violence.

Only when the ‘people’ of Palistine and Israel stand up to Hamas and barbaric behavior, will anything change. Only when retribution stops will the killing stop. Some of these people seem to actually thrive on horror and gore.

The outside world cannot change a culture and mindset. It must change itself from within.

Israeli violations of international law:

Photographic evidence has emerged that proves that Israel has been using controversial white phosphorus shells during its offensive in Gaza, despite official denials by the Israel Defence Forces.

There is also evidence that the rounds have injured Palestinian civilians, causing severe burns. The use of white phosphorus against civilians is prohibited under international law.

The Times has identified stockpiles of white phosphorus (WP) shells from high-resolution images taken of Israel Defence Forces (IDF) artillery units on the Israeli-Gaza border this week. The pale blue 155mm rounds are clearly marked with the designation M825A1, an American-made WP munition. The shell is an improved version with a more limited dispersion of the phosphorus, which ignites on contact with oxygen, and is being used by the Israeli gunners to create a smoke screen on the ground.

Michael Evans and Sheera Frenkel
London Times
Thursday, Jan 8, 2008
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5470047.ece

No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, shall be inflicted upon the population on account of the acts of individuals for which they cannot be regarded as jointly and severally responsible. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. Geneva Convention, Section 11, Article 33

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21668.htm

UN Says No Hamas Fighters Were in Bombed Gaza School:

United Nations investigators say they have uncovered no evidence to support a claim by the Israeli military that Hamas fighters were holed up in a Gaza school, prompting a deadly attack by Israeli forces that killed 40 civilians, many of them children.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html

UN: Israel admits rocket fire was not from within school

Israel told foreign diplomats Wednesday that Palestinian militants had not fired rockets from within a United Nations’ school, a UN official said. Israeli military officials said on Tuesday that militants had fired rockets from within the school, and that attack provoked Israeli artillery fire which landed near the school and killed more than 40 Palestinians in the Jabalia refugee camp, many of whom were seeking refuge from fighting.
http://tinyurl.com/8lgn93

I am so with you, Ritamary. Our government has failed us.

The propaganda comes from both sides…is this the tape you think it is, or one from 2005???
If you told me this is from the nursing home in Israel that was bombed today, I would also be inclined to believe you…suffering on all sides.

The surrounding counties do nothing to help either side. Except for the “habitrail for humanity” (tunnels to smuggle bombs into Gaza).

Iranian control clearly is a result of the misguided notion of invading Iraq. US foreign policy just expanded Iran’s sphere of influence when they toppled down Saddam Hussein.. Iraq has now a Shia government very friendly to Iran.. Thank goodness we owe the Bush admin and the neo cons for expanding iran’s influence. I can bet you that US is always on the wrong side of the equation every time there is a big conflict like this.. Anyone they supported, from the Israeli, to Arafat, to Fatah and now Abbas…. it is all a mistake and US still has not learned.

Hamas kills Palestinians as linked on Jawa:

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/195773.php

[...] is open to criticism. And friends of Israel, like Larry Johnson, have been critical of this military action against Hamas in [...]

[...] is open to criticism. And friends of Israel, like Larry Johnson, have been critical of this military action against Hamas in [...]