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The Pakistani Democracy Chimera

By Larry Johnson on November 10, 2007 at 11:07 PM in Current Affairs

In mythology the “chimera” is a monstrous creature made of the parts of multiple animals. Pakistan seems to fit the bill but it ain’t no fantasy. It is a nightmare. Pakistan remains the best friend and worst enemy when it comes to fighting and harboring terrorists. It does not choose between the options. It simply does both.

The Musharraf coup this past week has exposed the fatal flaw of the failed Bush policy in South Asia and given us a peek that many of the democrats continue to pay lip service to George Bush’s democratic fantasies. I have heard John Edwards and Joe Biden offer the “sage” advice that what we need in Pakistan is democracy. These guys have not learned a thing in the last four years–the United States cannot impose democracy and, in some cases, a democracy is the last thing we want.

But leave it to the Wall Street Journal to remind us that the neocon fantasy of remaking the world lives on:

Whatever Pervez Musharraf’s failings in Islamabad, his impact in Washington has been nothing short of miraculous. With his declaration of emergency rule, the Pakistan President has single-handedly revived the Bush Doctrine. The same people who only days ago were deriding President Bush for naively promoting democracy are now denouncing him for not promoting it enough in Pakistan.

“We have to move from a Musharraf to a Pakistan policy,” declared Democratic Presidential candidate Joe Biden on Thursday. “Pakistan has strong democratic traditions and a large, moderate majority. But that moderate majority must have a voice in the system and an outlet with elections. If not, moderates may find that they have no choice but to make common cause with extremists, just as the Shah’s opponents did in Iran three decades ago.”

Joe Biden, neocon.

The Senator’s epiphany underscores that Pakistan has long been the playground not of democracy promoters but of the foreign-policy “realists.” General Musharraf may have taken power in a coup, but when Colin Powell famously gave him the for-us-or-against-us choice after 9/11, the general chose “for.” He is a U.S. ally in a rough neighborhood, his government captured such al Qaeda bigs as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and as an authoritarian he was of the moderate kind. The Bush Administration did push Mr. Musharraf to restore democratic legitimacy, but quietly and without great urgency. Brent Scowcroft would have approved.

I favor a government in Pakistan committed to a rule of law. Hell, I would settle for one in the United States. I favor a government in Pakistan that protects the rights of minorities and honors habeas corpus. That would be nice to have in the United States too.

But the fact of the matter is there is precious little we can do in Pakistan right now without further harming our interests in the region. We act like spoiled, immature children in pursuing our relations with countries like Pakistan. Good Christ! We did the same stupid shit with Saddam. One minute we have Don Rumsfeld in Baghdad shaking Saddam’s hand and helping us contain Iran. Next thing you know Saddam is suddenly the face of all evil. He’s more Hitler than Hitler.

Now Musharraf gets to play the role. He was one of our best friends per George Bush. Of course his refusal to conduct affairs in Pakistan according to constitutional principles and western-style legislative/judicial procedures is not new. He was acting like that prior to 9-11. If we push for democracy in Pakistan–a rule in which the majority of the population shape the government priorities–stand by for chaos. We still seem to have trouble getting our minds around the notion that a majority Shia in Iraq will elect Shias who in turn will by sympathetic to Iran. DUH!!

Pat Lang offered up these insights on the particulars in Pakistan::

Pakistan is prone to religious fanaticism, tribal unrest and the rule of warriors? What a surprise! This is the traditional pattern of government throughout the Islamic World. There are places where this pattern does not exist; Jordan, Morocco. the UAE, Oman and a few more. The crowd will roar but I would include Egypt in this group. Strong, traditional rulers who govern with a modicum of common sense are the pattern in such places. Do we applaud their methods in such states? No! We Westerners typically seek to undermine them because they are not what we think they should be. What is that? Exactly like us, that is what we think they should be. For all our talk about the “blossoming” of freedom in locally acceptable forms, we Americans (and a lot of others) do not believe in that for a minute. We want people to be exactly like us.

In places like Pakistan where the veneer of Tom Friedman’s flat world is mighty thin, meddling in the local social order carries a high risk of de-stabilizing society and releasing forces that we have no ability to manage.

Our pressure for “Democracy” in Pakistan has been incompatible with our willingness to engage an already Islamist state like Pakistan as an ally. We have wrecked the status quo in Pakistan. Now we will all pay a price.

Ray Close, a celebrated CIA case officer and middle east expert, had more “cheery” news along these lines:

We cannot hope to mobilize our many friends in the Muslim world to join with us in opposing what we broadly label “Islamic extremism” if we continually project an image of ignorance and hostility toward the sensitivities and concerns of the huge majority among them who, exactly like us, want peace and stability in their own societies and everywhere else.

This report specifically addresses the question of why the Pakistan army has not been as effective as we have hoped and expected in its operations within Pakistan against al-Qa’ida and the Taliban. Our repeated criticisms of those efforts have not helped, of course. Case in point: Remarks by some US presidential candidates of both political parties to the effect that we should have no compunctions about violating Pakistan’s territorial integrity in pursuit of elements that we judge to be hostile to America, with or without the concurrence of the Government of Pakistan. A great way to win friends and influence people!

Ray also sent along this tidbit from a knowledgeable source in Pakistan:

Attitudes of the Pakistan Army officer corps, as exhibited by well-informed military contacts in Rawalpindi:

Generally the officers are not too bothered about what has happened — and though there is criticism, it is tepid.

Much more serious is the army reaction to deployment in Swat and Tribal areas. There have been a few incidents of officers refusing to take part in these operations — but mostly it seems that the ORs [Other Ranks, i.e. enlisted men] do not want to fight their own co-religionists in a war they consider to be a US war against Islam. Nearly every second day one hears of a surrender by some government units without firing a shot — this is the clearest statement yet of the unpopularity of these operations.

In my opinion if this situation lingers on it will have a disastrous effect on the army. If the army becomes destabalised, there is no other force in the country to fill the vaccum.

I have had the chance to discuss the effect of a US strike against Iran, with two generals — both thought this would be a huge disfavour to Pakistan.

On Iran, the disfavour would be in terms of taking the attention away from Musharraf’s excesses and turning the population uniformly against the US, further strengthening the notion in Pakistan that the US is bent upon destroying Islamic nations one by one.

At some point we need to grow up and acknowledge we do not control the world and we usually cannot make other countries do what we want. Hell, can we at least admit that we have a pretty spotty record when it comes to governing our own country in a humane, decent manner? We continue to act the role of a drunken mother-in-law who delights herself–when not pouring herself a new shot of scotch–in lecturing her ne’er do well son-in-law about his slovenly ways and the need to clean up his act.

Before we get on our moral high horses and lecture Pakistan on what it needs to do, perhaps we could first get an attorney general in place who understands that water boarding is torture. Or, how about shutting down or own illegal detention camps in Guantanamo? We need to move out of our glass house before we launch a rock throwing business. Just a thought.

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chris

Gopher hole diplomacy, pop one down and get it under control and another pops up where you weren’t looking.

Good article Larry
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Shirin

“…in some cases, a democracy is the last thing we want.”

Larry, with all due respect, why should anyone else care what you want and do not want? What makes your wishes about how other people should run their lives important?

Honestly, sometimes you come across as the worst kind of American supremicist!

mudkitty

Good grief Charlie Brown, leave it to Shirin to miss the point, entirely, again.

Shirin, you need your own blog, so you can make your own points, without having to constantly change the subjects at hand.
http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

Do chill, Shirin. We have selfish reasons for worrying about Pakistan. And rightfully so. Any country that has 30 nuclear weapons HAS to be a concern.

Then there’s Pakistan’s immediate proximity to, and involvement in, Afghanistan. It is not wrong for us to be selfishly concerned about what Pakistan is doing/not doing re Afghanistan.

Further, we are a part of the world. While it is hopeless to imagine a cooperative globe with the Bush imperialist criminals, it is an ideal that hopefully we can soon again pursue.

Mudkitty has a point. You should start your own blog. You’d find a readership, to be certain. You are deeply knowledgeable and have a great deal to say.

But I’ll never, ever understand your unyielding anti-Americanism when you are, in fact, a U.S. citizen. It makes me sad. This country has so much that is great, and millions of its citizens are the finest possible people. I have no hope, however, of ever convincing you of any of that.

mudkitty

He/she’s a paid shill. I’d put money on it.

Shirin

Another, even cheaper shot, of course – so much easier than actually responding to what a person has to say. No argument needed, no thought required.

mudkitty

Shrin, you never respond to what people have to say…you are your own agenda.

Shirin

Susan, come on! How is it anti-American to suggest that the United States – nor any other country, for that matter – has no business trying to decide for and dictate to others how their countries should be governed?

And let’s get over this notion that the practice of inducing, forcing, or coercing the United States’ will on other countries is something that began with the Bush administration. It was not the Bush administration that overthrew the democratically elected Iranian leader Mosadegh, and put the Shah in power. It was not the Bush administration that sponsored the Chilean coup that overthrew and murdered the democratically elected Allende and put the brutal dictator and war criminal Pinochet in power. The list prior to the Bush administration is very, very long, and very, very bloody.

Really, Susan, it is a cheap shot and unworthy of you to scream “anti-American” every time I say something you don’t like to hear instead of trying to understand where I might be coming from.

And this, too, needs to be said. Every time you use this tactic, I have to ask myself how ready you would be to bring out the “anti-American” and “she hates everything American” cards if you did not perceive me as an immigrant instead of a “real American” – that is, someone who was born a citizen. You don’t need to respond to this, but as an essentially honest and thoughtful person, you might think about it a little.

Montag

Shirin,
I agree with you. President Woodrow Wilson once said, “We must teach these Mexicans to elect good men.” Of course for Wilson good=pro-U.S. corporate despolation of Mexico’s resources. Wilson re-insitituted racial segregation among Federal agencies, by the way, such a Boy Scout!

Then in Europe, Wilson naively thought that if they drew borders carefully enough in demarcating the new post-WWI countries there would be no pesky minorities to spark another war. HA! The Poles wanted to include the suburbs of Moscow within their borders, and they weren’t the only ones. Wilson hadn’t a clue about what was really going on. Then, to add insult to injury, he couldn’t even get the League of Nations Treaty ratified in the U.S., leaving us out of it.

And as for Pakistan having nukes, who ALLOWED them to get nukes? India exploded their first, crude bomb way back in 1974. You’d have to be brain-dead not to predict that Pakistan would move Hell and high water to get one of their own. Then of course we were, SHOCKED, SHOCKED that Pakistan would want to keep up with the neighbors and had gotten a new car too.

What shocks me is how often U.S. foreign policy revolves around whether or not the President has taken a personal dislike to the head of another nation. It generally seems like a petty, personal vendetta. Do they actually PLAN these things, or do they just happen? It’s like in Woody Allen’s comedy, “Bananas,” where he goes to dinner at the home of a Central American Dictator. The Dictator’s henchman takes an instant dislike to Allen.

Henchman: “I want to kill him!”
Dictator: “But you just met him.”
Henchman: “Yes, but he brought dessert and it wasn’t an assortment.”

Shirin

Just so, Montag.

And of course, since you are perceived, correctly or incorrectly, as a “real” American – i.e., born that way – you can point out things like this without otherwise reasonable people hurling the “anti-American” epithet at you.

Bill Keyes

Shirin

I will be the devil’s advocate and give you your opportunity to explain as you said to Susan “where I am coming from”.

This entire discussion started with your comment above which I will reprint here..

Comment by Shirin | 2007-11-11 03:42:15

“…in some cases, a democracy is the last thing we want.”

Larry, with all due respect, why should anyone else care what you want and do not want? What makes your wishes about how other people should run their lives important?

Honestly, sometimes you come across as the worst kind of American supremicist!

Rather than comment on your remark, if you feel you were unjustly criticized please take this opportunity to express what you meant
and where you are coming from.

We await to hear what you have to say.

Shirin

Bill, thanks.

First, I could probably be justifiably criticized for jumping on this one remark from Larry without taking into account the context in which he made it. My bad. I have been justly accused of sometimes “shooting from the hip” when someone touches a “hot button”, and in this case I certainly did that.

Second, I could be justifiably criticized for making it somewhat personal. Again, my bad.

What is NOT justifiable is this knee-jerk resort to the anti-American epithet, particularly here, and particularly given the fact that this comeback is generally reserved for people who make critical comments about American policies and actions, and are perceived – correctly or incorrectly – as not being not U.S. born, and therefore not “real” Americans (remember how my dear friend Fadhil felt that he somehow had to defend his “loyalty” given his criticisms of U.S. actions? How many “real” Americans are asked to do that when THEY criticize the government?).

It is really unfortunate that people who are believed to be immigrants – people who have in fact voluntarily chosen to become citizens of this country – are not viewed as “real” Americans, and constantly subjected to that kind of attitude. It is most unfortunate that otherwise reasonable and open-minded people have absorbed and incorporated that view without even realizing it so that it is an unconscious thing, which is what I believe is the case here.

There are two main reasons I reacted as I did to Larry’s remark that “sometimes democracy is the last thing we want” – two main reasons that it is a hot button for me.

1. The United States has a lengthy history of thwarting democracy, often in brutal and bloody ways where and when it sees democracy as antithetical to its interests. I gave two examples in which the United States has been a key factor in violently deposing democratic rulers and replacing them with brutal, horrible dictators. There are many, many more similar examples.

For a very recent, and particularly horrid example, let us look at the recent elections in Palestine. In what was deemed by every knowledgeable person to be a free and fair election, the Palestinians, including a majority of Christians, chose Hamas to be the main party in power. (In a nutshell, they no longer wanted the corrupt and incompetent Fatah in power, particularly given that Fatah has done a terrible job of representing the Palestinian people and their needs. Few Palestinians really wish to be ruled by Islamists, but politically Hamas has been uncorrupt, and a good advocate for the people.) Since then the Bush regime, along of course with the Israeli regime, has punished the Palestinian people horribly for exercising their democratic rights. The Palestinians are being starved, deprived of water, electricity, medical necessities, education, and are even moreso than before, locked in what has been called the largest open air prison on earth. All for democratically choosing the government they wanted instead of the one the U.S. (and Israel) want.

And something quite similar happened in Lebanon as a result of their elections.

And so on.

Oh – and I doubt very much that very many people here believes for a moment that what the Bush administration has tried to establish in Iraq has anything to do with actual, genuine democracy.

2. There is a mindset that many Americans have – often without really being consciously aware of it – of American exceptionalism, American supremacy, and the right of the United States to direct the rest of the world in its own interest. It seems to be part of the psyche of even some of the most progressive and sophisticated people, and sometimes comes out unexpectedly at the oddest moments. One American writer over at Alternet, who understands this perfectly, has told me not to blame Americans for this sense of American exceptionalism as it is deeply ingrained unconsciously from birth. I don’t know about that because I know for a fact that not all Americans are afflicted with it, and many who become aware of it are able to change their mindset. I DO think it is something that Americans need to look out for in themselves when it comes to how they sense this country’s place in the world.

That’s my view. It is a view shared by many other Americans, the “real” kind who were born into it and the “lesser” kind who acquired it by choice. This view is based on historical and present-day fact and a reality that I, along with many others in this world, do not like, but there is nothing anti-American in it at all. It is something that I believe needs to change if the United States is to be a member in good standing of the world community.

mudkitty

Why not be more concise, Shirin, and why not get your own blog?

Brenda Stewart

Larry, please allow me to say this on this thread. I wish to say welcome home to all veterans on this day. Thank you for being a veteran. Thank you for serving our country, and for being a part of my life. NO matter what war you served in, I send to you my hugs.

As a veteran, I share with you all the emotions and all the rest that goes along with this celebration on this day. Please know that you are thought of on a daily basis by this one veteran…

I have two children who are veterans. This is what I have to say…they make me proud to be their mother.

Now as to Pakistan…this country will never be a democracy like what America is [and I am seriously wondering about us] and we should not allow ourselves to think of it such as this. Anyhow, we will go so far as to intimidate that country through $$ to bribe them to do our bidding. It will not happen. They are a different kind of ppl than we are. We do not understand their way of life.

Thank you for this forum for us to speak our minds.

Bill Keyes

Brenda

Let us remember all Veterans this day as well as your two children and I hope what I am about to say in no way diminishes their contribution.

I am basically a pacifist at heart. I did not completely realize this until after my father died some years ago my mother told me that if he had been drafted into WWII he wouldn’t have gone and would have filed as a conscientious objector. He did not have to serve as he was exempt because he worked for the Soil Conservation Service.

So that is part of the reason why I am opposed to war and would not serve.

The rest is as follows….

In 1963 when my college deferment was running out, I joined the Army Reserve in order to avoid the draft. After I got out of the 6 months active duty, I finished college got married and took a job in LA. By then it was early 1967 and the Vietnam War was rapidly escalating. I was supposed to be in an active Reserve unit or I would be subject to call up for the remaining time of my two year commitment which was a ticket straight to Vietnam. For 6 months in LA I tried to get into a Reserve Unit but couldn’t so when faced with a June 1st deadline to get into a unit or else I was the most frightened that I ever been in my life. In desperation I called the Co Clerk unit of the unit that I was in college back in the Midwest who said he could get me back in if I could be at their next meeting which was in five days. I went in the next day quit my job packed up my VW bug arranged for the rest of my stuff to be shipped and moved back where I spent the better part of the next 40 years.

In spite of being called many times unpatriotic, a draft dodger and worse I have never regretted it and probably never have joined in the first place if I had it to do over again.

Philip Henika said later in this thread..

“The 21st Century could see the end of war, the end of disease, the adaption to climate change, energy efficiency etc. but only when such a multi-factorial peace process becomes a reality”.

I couldn’t have said it better. After living under the treat of nuclear annihilation during the “Cold War”, and after Bill Clinton I thrilled at the possibility that maybe in my lifetime “world peace” as Philip so eloquently described above would break out.

Of course it didn’t, in fact the threat to world peace today is the worst it has been in the history of mankind and it was all caused by the country which should be the shining light for peace, prosperity, equality for all, respect for all, religious tolerance etc.

So it would appear that not only does history repeat itself, but that those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. So the march of war, death and destruction continues on.

Yes we celebrate and remember those who have died in the service of their country, but it saddens me immensely that so much death and destruction is a necessary by product on life on this earth and if we spent even a mere fraction of what we spend on military armaments on promoting all the things that Philip mentioned, as that song by Louis Armstrong says…

What A wonderful World This Would Be

Peace

taters

Thank you for a heartfelt post, Bill.

Bill Keyes

thanks taters

Brenda Stewart

Hi Bill,

Even tho I and my 2 children were in the military does not make us murderous ppl. To the contrary. I, for one, also am a pacifist at heart…:o)

I do not want war, ever! I served so that ppl such as yourself do not have to serve. I do not hold any resentment towards you, in the least. I really do respect you and your ideas and your position in this. hugs…

What I do take heart is that ppl like cheney and others do with their ways of thinking. I do not see you as one that pushes for war and for others to do the fighting while you are safely ordering others to die in your stead. There, is the difference! I hope I can lessen your feelings of those who do choose to serve so others do not have to. BTW, I and others of my generation are not happy with how the military has done in the years that have passed to make our men/women sacrifice their lives so that they get their medals or become more political in their position.

I pray each day that we all survive this administration and somehow get back on the even keel to having a peaceful world to some extend, considering the damage that is done and can still be done in our name.

NO offense taken, dear Friend…none at all..

taters

Well said Brenda – and thank you for your service. And to all our veterans, thank you. Whetehr in uniform or not.
And to those who have loved ones serving – Prchr Lady and Hoosier Hoops – I pray and hope they all return safe and sound, and that includes Michael, my nephew,who has a newborn. And to the memory of my late father, who served in two wars.

A fitting tribute – From Col. Patrick W.Lang, via America, The Catholic Weekly

“Dear Hearts Across the Seas”

“ For 14 hours yesterday, I was at work—teaching Christ to lift his cross by the numbers, and how to adjust his crown; and not to imagine he thirst until after the last halt. I attended his Supper to see that there were no complaints; and inspected his feet that they should be worthy of the nails. I see to it that he is dumb, and stands before his accusers. With a piece of silver I buy him every day, and with maps I make him familiar with the topography of Golgotha.”
Captain Wilfred Owen, The Manchesters
Killed in Action, Nov. 4, 1918

This famous quotation from the work of the soldier-poet Wilfred Owen sums up both the awfulness and the beauty of a combat soldier’s life. It is particularly meaningful to those who have been given the chance to train and lead men in war. I came to know Owen’s work a few years back through Paul Fussell’s The Great War and Modern Memory. Professor Fussell was badly wounded in World War II and is still filled with the righteous outrage that fills most combat men. God bless him.

Many will recoil in horror from the idea that there can be beauty in the life led by combat soldiers, the immortal “grunts” and Grognards who live in historic memory. It is all too easy to see nothing but the pain and the misery of loss, wounds and experience so horrible that it scars for life. Perhaps the worst is the memory of suffering necessarily inflicted on others whose motives are often no more base or lacking in what the Romans called pietas than our own. Not political enough for you? Go talk to a soldier and see if he agrees with you.

cont’d

http://www.americamagazine.org/content/article.cfm?article_id=4817

Brenda Stewart

Hugs Taters, this is what is good about this forum. We are all able to express our feelings and come to a basic conclusion of which is right or wrong with things. I am proud of my service to my country. It was the least that I could do for it and you, my countrymen/women. My heartfelt respect goes out to each of you.

taters

I am proud of my service to my country. It was the least that I could do for it and you, my countrymen/women. My heartfelt respect goes out to each of you.

You’re the best Brenda! btw – Pat’s got “Dear Hearts Acroos the Seas” up at Sic Semper.

http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2007/11/dear-hearts-acr.html

http://www.food4humanity.org hoosierhoops

Thanks for your service Brenda..
and thank you Taters for your words….

Montag

It would be really nice if all those Yellow Ribbons put out by the Uberpatriots weren’t made of toilet paper when the Veterans’ bills come due. This happened here in Fort Bend County, Texas right after the First Gulf War. There was a Constitutional Amendment to raise the indebtedness of the Texas Veterans’ Land Office by issueing more bonds. This wouldn’t have cost the taxpaper one damn cent because those Land Office Loans are almost never defaulted on–the Veterans are really conscientious about replaying them. Well, it passed statewide, but here in UberRepublican Fort Bend County it was defeated. The catchphrase in the Country Clubs was, “See ya, wouldn’t wanna BE ya.”

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

Taters, Brenda is modest. She continues to serve our country in so many ways. She is an RN and works her heart out for her patients. She and my daughter saved my life a little over a year ago — and Brenda steadfastly called me EVERY DAY to make sure I was making it.

Brenda also worked very hard to create the women’s memorial for the Vietnam War in Washington, D.C. It took her an enormous number of hours, and great personal expense, to work with the group that made it possible.

Brenda also — well, I’m not sure she’d want me to say — but let’s just say that she is LOOKING OUT for our young men and women who may be called upon to fight the rightwing’s future wars.

Shirin

“They are a different kind of ppl than we are. We do not understand their way of life.”

Brenda, I am disappointed to hear this kind of statement from you.

What do you even know about “their way of life”? Have you been to Pakistan? Have you visited any families in their homes in Pakistan? Have you met many Pakistanis in the US? Have you engaged in conversation with them? Have you observed or even discussed with them “their way of life”, or their personal hopes, aspirations, and desires? Have you talked to any “ordinary” Pakistanis, or heard any “ordinary” Pakistanis speak about what they want for Pakistan and its people? Have you visited any Pakistani families in their homes in the United States?

Something tells me that the answer to all those questions is no, and in that case, how do you talk about what kind of people they are and their “way of life”?

I am constantly surprised, disappointed, and appalled at this reflexive dismissal of Middle Eastern, Muslim, and other sorts of “brown” people as some kind of incomprehensibly different, exotic species.

Specific cultural niceties aside, human beings everywhere are fundamentally alike in all ways that are really important.

Bill Keyes

Shirin

On the attack again eh??

I can’t believe you, twice on the same thread.

I was shocked when you attacked Larry but refrained from saying anything, but when you attacked Brenda that was too much for me to sit idly by.

So I am going to post a timeline here which makes you look like a fool.

Brenda made her remark which you take issue above at this time

Comment by Brenda Stewart | 2007-11-11 08:43:19 which I believe was
about 8:45 am today.

About 4 hours later this comment was posted questioning the same remark that you did by Eclaire

Comment by Eclaire | 2007-11-11 12:48:47

“Brenda Stewart, I always read your comments with interest and, usually agree with your insights. However, I do beg to differ with your statement above: “They are a different kind of ppl than we are. We do not understand their way of life.”

Eclaire went on to say “Let’s not make the mistake of classifying “different” people as beyond redemption or understanding.”

4 hours later this was posted by Brenda Stewart

Comment by Brenda Stewart | 2007-11-11 16:20:07

Which in part said.”….thank you for your correction….maybe I said it wrong. We do gather ppl of other societies around us and celebrate their differences.”

This sounds like an apology to me.

Then six hours at later this comes from you
Comment by Shirin | 2007-11-11 22:45:21

“They are a different kind of ppl than we are. We do not understand their way of life.”

Brenda, I am disappointed to hear this kind of statement from you.”

Then you get on your high horse all pissed off and start attacking Brenda without even bothering to read what else has been posted.

What gives with you? First you attack Larry then Susan and now Brenda.

You need to get off this blog with all your venom and anger and go back to Iraq if you don’t like it here.

We are not your enemy, we do not have anything against “brown people” who you, not us, have chosen to call yourself.

I was looking forward to possibly working with you to help Iraqi refugees
but with the kind of attitude you displayed on this thread you can kiss that goodbye.

Shirin

Come on, what gives with you people? I have not attacked Brenda. Or is any kind of challenge considered an attack?

Brenda made a statement which reveals a point of view I consider to be the source of a lot of problems, and which I do not believe she has enough information to make. It is a kind of point of view I find all too common. I challenged her statement, and pointed out what I consider wrong with it. Since when does challenging someone’s statements constitute an attack on the person?

My God, what a thin skinned lot you all are here!

Shirin

PS I will concede that what I said to Larry can reasonably be seen as an attack, but I did not attack Susan.

If you are all so thin skinned that you can’t stand to be challenged or questioned then why not just join some sweetness and light forum that never deals with anything difficult or controversial instead of one like this?

Shirin

PPS And most interesting of all is that while you are going off on me for supposedly “attacking” people, no one here, including you, seems to find it an attack to be incessantly having the “anti-American” epithet hurled at one, or constantly being labeled a “troll” and a “paid shill” by someone who claims to be an expert in such things.

How can it be an attack to merely challenge what someone has said when it is not an attack to name call?

Shirin

“You need to get off this blog with all your venom and anger…”

How interesting! Nothing I wrote here today contained any venom or anger at all, including what I wrote to Larry, although I can understand why some might see it otherwise. What I wrote to Susan, and to Brenda was measured and rational, and without venom or anger, though anger over Susan’s habit of name-calling would have been more than justified, particularly since Susan should by now know me better than that.

And sorry, Bill, but you are not this blog’s censor. If Larry and his cohorts here do not want to see my viewpoint on their blog, then all they need to do is ask me not to post here again, and I will respectfully comply.

“and go back to Iraq if you don’t like it here.”

Interesting. Who is displaying venom here, Bill? Not me, I think.

“We are not your enemy, we do not have anything against “brown people” who you, not us, have chosen to call yourself.”

1. I haven’t said anyone has anything against any people.

2. I have not chosen to call myself brown or anything else. I wasn’t even referring to myself. But that you have made this assumption is interesting, particularly since you (nor anyone else here) has ever seen me and has no idea about my colouring.

“I was looking forward to possibly working with you to help Iraqi refugees
but with the kind of attitude you displayed on this thread you can kiss that goodbye.”

Who is it, again, who is displaying venom?

Shirin

“I was looking forward to possibly working with you to help Iraqi refugees
but with the kind of attitude you displayed on this thread you can kiss that goodbye.”

After further reflection on this particular petulant remark, it becomes apparent that you somehow think you would be doing ME a favour by offering to work with me to help Iraqi refugees, and that you are in some way punishing me now by withdrawing that offer. What a very odd attitude.

I would say that I would be glad if you would help refugees by any means, with or without me, but I am afraid that then you might decide not to help refugees at all.

Bill Keyes

Ah Shirin

What can I say..you have certainly put me in my place once again.

My apologies once again and I will from now on always
remember my place when I consider addressing you.

Teaeopy

You can speak for yourself, Bill Keyes. You can say that you’ve made your charitable gesture. And while you’re suggesting migration, would you be interested in leaving your retreat to go back wherever your ancestors came from?

There’s a rash of presuming to speak for the blog here when, if discourse on valid concerns such as Shirin’s becomes too much, it’s on Larry Johnson to make any changes he deems necessary.

Democracy is serious stuff. Trying to force it on another country should be unacceptable. Dismissing its importance when an interest of one kind or another makes it seem expedient to do so should also be unacceptable. Concluding that certain peoples would never be able to handle it, incrementally if not all at once, is benighted and ethnocentric. Those Pakastani lawyers seem to believe they have something to say.

Those who give offense should be prepared to take it. Without self-examination, though, observing that one is giving offense is unlikely. With all that’s going on in this world, maybe we need more sincere speaking up, even when personal sensitivity levels are high.

Bill Keyes

Teaeopy

I am not even sure what you point to me is. If is that I have offended you or Shirin please tell me how and we can discuss it.

To clear the air, my beef with Shirin has nothing to do with the issue, which I believe has to do with the US’s interference in the affairs of other sovereign nations. I wholeheartedly agree with her on that.

I don’t believe we should ever intervene at all unless asked by the UN which I believe was set up to handle matters like Sadaam and Iraq, iran and other places like them. But the Bush Cabal effectively told the UN to go to hell.

Most of the time I agree with Shirin. Her comments are informative, full of good, well researched information and well presented. But on a blog such as this if you are going to disagree with somebody, there are respectful ways to do it, but instead of keeping it respectful she resorts to attacking and insulting them which I do not like especially if I think it is unfair. and I stated above she was way out of line with Brenda.

So if I came to Brenda’s defense on behalf of the blog so be it.

If Larry thinks that is out of line I will be more than happy to withdraw.

I do not presume to speak for the blog. You are right that it is Larry’s place to intervene.

You said…

“And while you’re suggesting migration, would you be interested in leaving your retreat to go back wherever your ancestors came from?”

My answer is yes I would. I believe my ancestors would be appalled with what this country has become and would welcome me back. However my background is very diverse, so I would not be sure where to start. However i do plan to leave the comfort of my retreat and go to mexico as soon as I can afford it. While you may say it is a third world nation, I would put it higher that this country which I would rank right down with the lowest of the low…Hitler’s Germany

Brenda Stewart

This is humorous to me to hear you say things like this. Madam, you do not know me from squat. How do you know, I do not know such as “brown” ppl? You do assume much here that you do not know about what you say. BTW, Madam, I have many “brown” friends that I still learn from and I hope they learn from me too.

In my profession, I have worked with and still work with many nationalities. So don’t go and get all reverent on me. For your information, I stood up for a Pakistani with an Indian [from India] Dr– not to be prejudice against him [Pakistani]. So do not go all off on me as I do not know what I speak about. I have had my life saved not once but twice by a Dr from Thailand. You better get your knowledge of ppl straight before you make broad statements about them.

Also, we, as a ppl, here in the states for the most part, do not know other countries like we should. This is the reason we are so judgmental. Might I ask you do you know the plite that the African/American ppl have had to fight over the years here in this land? I seriously doubt this. I do not hold this against you. You and I need to just open our hearts to others and let them in to understand them better. Madam, I can remember the day when ppl were so against the Japanese ppl here in the US that it was not even funny! I have tried to listen to you as you say things, that, I think you are just bitter. Maybe you think yourself better than others, I do not know, but this is not an excuse to cut ppl down. Telling them how you are so disappointed in them. This is a forum of learning or at least that is what this is for me. It is also a forum to give me a voice. I try hard not to hurt others feelings in saying things on how I feel. I really do respect others opinions. When I don’t for the most part, I just go on and do not comment to them. But to let someone cut me down, I will speak up for myself.

Lets not belittle ourselves here and make things worse. Lets just try hard to get along, which is what you/I are trying to say in the long run. I am interested in your feelings, as I hope you are interested in mine, and others. Try to educate not to belittle. It will go a long way to making friends instead of enemies. What you say?

I am a good person, I try to not let ppl get under my skin, for I have a life of my own that will be productive and a family that I love, as I am sure you do too. So I am not gonna let you get to me, but I will explain myself to you in order to let you know I am not a resentful person. I do not hold grudges towards anyone, except this administration. They have done way tooooo much towards our societies of the world and will take many years to come to repair. Like was said in a movie once, “stupid is as stupid does”.

So if I do disagree with you, or you disagree with me, it is our prerogative to be this way; however, I refuse to argue with you about things that maybe neither you nor I know nothing about.

I truly hope I have made myself clear on this issue here. Soooooooooo, if I did not think you worthy of my comments, I would not address you straight outright.

mudkitty

I do not believe that Shirin is who or what he/she claims to be.

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

Mudkitty,
Shirin is who she says she is. I have no doubt of that because of her emails to me.

mudkitty

Emails? That’s proof? Come on.

And if she/he is who she/he says she is…then all I can say is we are witnessing a nervous breakdown of sorts. Never pretty.

Or…she may be who she says she is, and more…a paid troll, mole, and shill. If she isn’t, she needs to get a life.

What does she/he want us to do? Shoot ourselves in the head, or get ourselves shot while defending her, and her contempt for the USA? How far does she/he want us to take it, and how seriously does she/he want us to take her/him, and what does he/she plan to do about it all anyway?

When it comes to taking Shirin seriously, I think I’ll pass.

Shirin

Well, Brenda, I have just come from a fourteen hour workday, which follows a seven day week of well over eight hours each day, so I just don’t have the mental energy to read your entire response to me, but I get that you are angry and offended, and for that I am sorry because that was not my intent at all. On reflection, though, I can understand why you would take offense. I know what I was thinking, feeling and intending when I wrote what I wrote, but absent visuals, vocal inflections, and immediate feedback, there is no way you could.

And in my current state of mental and physical tiredness, and with another long day ahead of me, I will not attempt to go further with this subject except to say that I am sorry I did not consider more carefully how I conveyed my message.

http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

Shirin: It was nice of you to say you’re sorry to Brenda.. Sounds like you are working very hard and exhausted..Sometimes these topics are white hot and emotions run high.
I wish you well Shirin.

mudkitty

Shirin is now playing the pity card.
Shirin

Thanks, Hoopster.

Yes, I AM working very hard right now – it is a case of “your lack of planning is, in fact, my emergency” } – and I WAS very tired last night. However, when I wrote what I wrote to Brenda it was not out of exhaustion, or emotion. There was nothing “white hot” about it. My intention was to ask Brenda and others to think about and question the assumptions contained in the point of view she expressed.

The idea that Pakistanis (or Arabs, or Muslims, or…fill in the blank) are incapable of democracy or anything else, for that matter), and that they have some exotic, impenetrable “way of life” that “we westerners” cannot comprehend is a very damaging, and in my view dangerous thing, and it needs to be challenged.

I myself am bicultural, and I move very comfortably between the two cultures. In addition, I have an “adopted” family in Pakistan, I have lived in their home, and I know for a fact that in the ways that matter they are not all that different from you or Brenda or me or any other human being. Sure, they dress differently, some of their traditions are different – even Arabs could take lessons from them in hospitality. And those in this country who constantly bleat about and try to force artificial concepts of “family values” would learn what true family values are from my Pakistani family and their friends.

And moving to the present situation in Pakistan, it is not the Pakistanis’ “way of life” that is getting in the way of democracy there, it is their leader’s – a dictator who took power in a military coup – refusal to release one iota of his hold on power. Look at the means he was willing to use.

And the people of Pakistan certainly do not seem to accept these undemocratic actions, do they?

Attitudes and views that create distance between human beings, and that place one group of humans above another, and as long as they are maintained, especially by good people with good hearts and good minds, there will always be troubles. These divisive views exist on both sides, and they have to be removed.

For many years I have believed that all American citizens should be required to live one year in a non-western country, not as part of an American community there, but as part of the local community there. That would serve as an education both for the American “guest”, and for the host community. You learn a lot about human beings and what we all have in common that way.

http://www.food4humanity.org hoosierhoops

Well said..Shirin

Bill Keyes

Shirin

I echo what hoosier hoops said.

Perhaps I was a little strong and sarcastic in my original post.

Please accept my apologies and yes I still want to do something to help some Iraqi refugees.

Here is a link that Susan helped me find.

http://www.thelistproject.org/

It is called

Project to Resettle Iraqi Allies

It is an organization started by a man named Kirk Johnson who worked for the USAID Bagdad and Fullajah. After he came back to the US he became concerned that Iraqi’s who had worked for USAID were receiving death threats so he started a list to try to keep track of these people and to figure out a way to help them.

Are this people you would feel comfortable helping? (I am not being sarcastic)

Anyway check it out and let me know what you think.

I know you are busy and as hoops said above sometimes emotions concerning Iraq especially for you become very painful and personal.

Again, Shirin we on NQ are not your enemy. We can understand how conflicted at times you can feel between living here as a citizen and then dealing with this countries policies towards your homeland and other countries.

NONE of like this situation but please believe me when I say, even though most of us have probably not been to Iraq, or Pakistan, or any other ME countries, it in no way lessens our concern for plight of the people who lives have been torn asunder by the evil and vicious people who run this country.

Even though we all have our differences and stresses in our own lives, the reason I come to NQ is because it is a community of mostly true compassionate human beings who I enjoy relating to and learning from including you.

So lets work on helping some of the people we have so wronged, ok?

Anyone else have any ideas on how to help the displaced iraqi people no matter where they are?

I am not trying to dictate to anyone on this site what they should do. I just thought it might be helpful to coordinate through NQ any help any of us might be able to do.

Let me here from any of you either here of email me directly at

bill564@cox.net.

mudkitty

How many times do we have to beg Shirin to realize that the US Government and the Administration are not the same thing, and that the Bush Administration and the Pan-American Peoples are not the same thing.

Over, and over, and over again…to no avail.

Reason is not his/her purpose.
Shirin

Bill, thanks for saying this.

The Iraqis who worked with and on behalf of the occupation are not the people I am interested in helping. It is not that I have anything against them personally. Some of them simply got caught up in a situation for various reasons. Some no doubt sincerely thought they were doing the right thing, at least in the beginning. For some, robbed of their means of livelihood by the invasion and occupation, it was the only way to support their families. And others had less forgivable motives. But it is the U.S. and not I who owe these people, and there are already movements and organizations working on their behalf. And there are millions and millions of Iraqis who have not derived any benefit from the U.S. aggression and have no one to help them.

Second, I am not interested in contributing to efforts to resettle displaced Iraqis, and particularly not in the United States. I have a number of reasons for that, both rational and non-rational. Displaced persons and refugees have a right to return to their country, and Iraq will need its most valuable asset, its people. Eventual repatriation, not resettlement, should be the first priority wherever it is possible.

What I would really most like to see is an effort to help the estimated million or so Iraqis who are displaced and homeless because the American military destroyed their homes or rendered them uninhabitable. Those are the people to whom the United States owes the most. I am not sure how one would go about locating that specific group of people, but it should not be impossible.

Now, to address something else:

My comment to Brenda was not made out of some emotional outburst. Most of my comments here are not, in fact, though some have been.

The problem with written communication is that it is not accompanied by facial expression, body language, and vocal tone, so it can be very easy to misinterpret. Words alone simply do not convey the full story. The exact same words can mean one thing when accompanied by a smile or a chuckle and quite another when delivered with a scowl and a raised voice. Irony comes across very poorly in this medium.

How we interpret a written message does not only depend on how it is written. It also has a lot to do with our mental and emotional state at the time, including the expectation with which we approach reading it. And, of course, part of that expectation is the mental image we have developed of the writer.

When we write something we know what our intention is, and we are aware of our mental state. There reader is not necessarily aware. So, after I saw Brenda’s extremely angry reaction – one might even call it a diatribe } – I tried to step out of my own understanding of my intention, and look at it from a different perspective, and then I could understand how it could be taken in a negative way.

I was not suggesting that Brenda or anyone here has any ill feeling about any group of people, including Pakistanis, Muslims, Iraqis or anyone else, and you will find nothing in my words that says that. What I was suggesting was that not Brenda, not you, probably not anyone else here has any basis on which to make conclusions about Pakistanis’ way of life, or their ability or willingness to have democracy. It is an unconscious and baseless prejudice that leads to that kind of thinking, all humans are prone to it, and all humans must try to recognize it in themselves and overcome it.

In the case of Pakistan the evidence in front of us seems to indicate, by the way, that they have a strong desire and will to live in a democratic state. That is certainly the case with my “adopted” family (more accurately, the family that adopted me), and all the people there I have met and gotten to know and grown to love. So, let’s all be careful not to draw conclusions about the abilities of other groups of people to do things based on unfounded beliefs about a “way of life” that we really don’t know anything about.

Bill Keyes

Thanks Shirin,

I am looking forward to working with you on some kind of project.

Hope you have a better rest of the week.

Shirin

Thanks, Bill. After the last two days, it cannot but improve. At least tonight I was able to locate the very elusive cause of a problem that was stalling an already very difficult – no, impossible – timeline. What we can do about it is a completely different question, but at least we have located it, and I have been vindicated because tonight one of my team members and I confirmed it beyond any question. The downside of it all is that for the sake of the project it was not the best outcome, and at this point I would rather have had my ego bruised and endured some teasing and criticism rather than have it be something that will not be easily solved!

Oh well, it is what it is, and no one will die or be maimed or starve to death because of it. It is, in perspective, not the end of the world, no matter how badly the COO and other management takes it.

If you are inclined to help out the former collaborators, I have no problem with that – it is up to you. My interest is in helping those who have been forced from their homes, and most of all those whose homes are no longer standing thanks to the United States military. They have lost everything.

Bill Keyes

Shirin,

I see you point about the “former collaborators” , perhaps it was a bad suggestion.

I still would like to specifically help a a family or families that I would know who they were and they could know me if they wanted too, so I am open to anything.

Shirin

I really like that idea, Bill. It makes it so much more personal, and allows a real connection to develop, which is always a good thing.

I have some Iraqi and other contacts who might be helpful, and hopefully I will be able to explore the possibilities while in Syria, though that is not the main purpose of the trip. I plan to be there for about a month, which hopefully will allow time to at least initiate some useful relationships.

mudkitty

Shirin – if you work a 14 hour work day…how can it be that you spend so much time (not to mention bandwidth) here at this site.

Bull Pucky!

Philip Henika

No Quarter:

SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2007, Issue No. 112
November 8, 2007

excerpt:

RICHARD BARLOW, NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND PAKISTAN

The declaration of emergency rule in Pakistan has
focused new concern
on the status of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. It may
also bring renewed attention to the case of Richard Barlow, the former intelligence officer
who attempted to warn Congress two decades ago about
Pakistan’s clandestine acquisition of U.S. nuclear technology and who was punished for his trouble.

In a classic whistleblower tale, Mr. Barlow’s security clearances were suspended, the state secrets privilege was invoked, and he was
personally vilified after he attempted to notify
Congress of irregularities and illegalities in Pakistan’s U.S. acquisitions program. Yet his allegations about Pakistani export control violations
and official attempts to conceal those violations were ultimately corroborated.

A summary account of Mr. Barlow’s actions and
experiences was presented in one of two pending amendments introduced by Sen. Jeff Bingaman
(D-NM) last summer to provide belated compensation for his losses. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2007/barlow.html

Mr. Barlow’s story, and much else about the
clandestine development of the Pakistani nuclear weapons program, is presented in a new book
called “Deception: Pakistan, the United States, and
the Secret Trade in Nuclear Weapons” by Adrian Levy and Catherine Scott-Clark (Walker & Company, 2007):

http://www.walkerbooks.com/books/catalog.php?key=690

The Congressional Research Service examined
“Pakistan’s Political Crisis and State of Emergency” in a new report dated November 6, 2007:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34240.pdf

See also “Pakistan-U.S. Relations,” updated October
18, 2007:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33498.pdf

And “Direct Overt U.S. Aid to Pakistan,
FY2001-FY2008,” November 8,
2007:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/pakaid.pdf
taters

At some point we need to grow up and acknowledge we do not control the world and we usually cannot make other countries do what we want. Hell, can we at least admit that we have a pretty spotty record when it comes to governing our own country in a humane, decent manner? We continue to act the role of a drunken mother-in-law who delights herself–when not pouring herself a new shot of scotch–in lecturing her ne’er do well son-in-law about his slovenly ways and the need to clean up his act.

Before we get on our moral high horses and lecture Pakistan on what it needs to do, perhaps we could first get an attorney general in place who understands that water boarding is torture. Or, how about shutting down or own illegal detention camps in Guantanamo? We need to move out of our glass house before we launch a rock throwing business. Just a thought.

Well said Larry. Thanks you for an informative piece.
Philip Henika

I think that the NeoCons continue to plan and execute their plans while we rant about such ideals as Democracy and human rights (Bush reminds me of 60′s Free Speech Berkeley). If change really happens and the nonmilitary option to the world’s problems comes into play i.e. a global peacebuilding initiative then the global paradigms of the likes of Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Al Gore are implemented. The 21st Century could see the end of war, the end of disease, the adaption to climate change, energy efficiency etc. but only when such a multifactorial peace process becomes a reality. Focus on a single issue such as the security of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal delays the precedents established by recent history e.g. globalization has replaced the Cold War.

Mr.Murder

“Focus on a single issue such as the security of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal delays the precedents established by recent history e.g. globalization has replaced the Cold War.”

Mission Accomplished.

Rummy needs another Cold War, so doe the MIC. We’re trying to accelerate proliferation so the world will decide to buy into a missile defense shield.

Then we can maintain a tense client state model across regions. South Asia is first, but it will pattern the same actions(in time) for the same models to develop chronologically in South America and Africa…

GF

Larry,

Re, “…the United States cannot impose democracy and, in some cases, a democracy is the last thing we want” all democracy means is people vote. In all this spreading of democracy we talk about, WE NEVER CONSIDER WHAT THEY MIGHT VOTE FOR. You are right, in some cases democracy IS the last thing we want. We’ve been living with the negative consequences of voting since the 2000 election!

Brenda Stewart

)…amen to that one!

Philip Henika

SECRECY NEWS
from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
Volume 2007, Issue No. 112
November 8, 2007

excerpt:

RICHARD BARLOW, NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND PAKISTAN

The declaration of emergency rule in Pakistan has
focused new concern
on the status of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal. It may
also bring renewed
attention to the case of Richard Barlow, the former
intelligence
officer
who attempted to warn Congress two decades ago about
Pakistan’s
clandestine acquisition of U.S. nuclear technology and
who was punished
for his trouble.

In a classic whistleblower tale, Mr. Barlow’s security
clearances were
suspended, the state secrets privilege was invoked,
and he was
personally vilified after he attempted to notify
Congress of
irregularities and illegalities in Pakistan’s U.S.
acquisitions
program. Yet his allegations about Pakistani export
control violations
and official attempts to conceal those violations were
ultimately
corroborated.

A summary account of Mr. Barlow’s actions and
experiences was presented
in one of two pending amendments introduced by Sen.
Jeff Bingaman
(D-NM)
last summer to provide belated compensation for his
losses. See:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/congress/2007/barlow.html

Mr. Barlow’s story, and much else about the
clandestine development of
the Pakistani nuclear weapons program, is presented in
a new book
called “Deception: Pakistan, the United States, and
the Secret Trade in
Nuclear Weapons” by Adrian Levy and Catherine
Scott-Clark (Walker &
Company, 2007):

http://www.walkerbooks.com/books/catalog.php?key=690

The Congressional Research Service examined
“Pakistan’s Political
Crisis and State of Emergency” in a new report dated
November 6, 2007:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34240.pdf

See also “Pakistan-U.S. Relations,” updated October
18, 2007:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL33498.pdf

And “Direct Overt U.S. Aid to Pakistan,
FY2001-FY2008,” November 8,
2007:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/pakaid.pdf
Cee

Larry,

I agree with you. Close mentions this:

We cannot hope to mobilize our many friends in the Muslim world to join with us in opposing what we broadly label “Islamic extremism” if we continually project an image of ignorance and hostility toward the sensitivities and concerns of the huge majority among them who, exactly like us, want peace and stability in their own societies and everywhere else.

So true. One thing is missing. The fact that extremists have been used by our intelligence agencies and until we address that nothing will change.

Look Out! Here Comes P2OG, Alternet.org, November 5, 2002: “The Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG) — as described in an internal briefing drafted this summer to guide other Pentagon agencies — would carrry out ‘secret operations’ aimed at ‘stimulating reactions’ among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction — that is, for instance, prodding terrorist cells into action and exposing themselves to ‘quick-response’ attacks by U.S. forces.’ Wait a minute — prod terrorists into action?! Hello again, Dr. Strangelove…. And just to make sure that we lose international support altogether, the brief declares the U.S. will hold ‘states/sub-state actors accountable’ and ‘signal to harboring states that their sovereignty will be at risk.’ That is sure to play well with the rest of the world.”
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Proactive_Preemptive_Operations_Group
Bill Keyes

Perhaps a bit of humor would be appropriate right now.

I got the following from my brother earlier in the week…..

November 4, 2007
Bush Gives Musharraf Tips on Eliminating Democracy

‘Benefit From My Experience,’ President Tells Pakistani

In what he described as “an emergency mission to help a key ally in the war on terror,” President George W. Bush flew to Islamabad today to give General Pervez Musharraf tips on how to eliminate democracy.

Mr. Bush said he scheduled the trip just hours after General Musharraf declared a state of emergency in Pakistan and suspended elections “because when it comes to eliminating democracy, I thought my friend Pervez could benefit from my experience.”

Speaking to reporters aboard Air Force One, Mr. Bush said that while he commended General Musharraf’s impulse to eliminate democratic institutions, he felt that the military strongman was going about it the wrong way: “When you’re getting rid of democracy, the last thing you want to do is tell people you’re doing it.”

Mr. Bush said that eliminating such things as privacy, freedom of speech and the constitution had to be done “very quietly and stealthy-like.”

“If I had gone on TV one day and just ended democracy like Pervez did, I would have caught holy hell from Maureen Dowd,” Mr. Bush chuckled. “You’ve got to be crafty about these things.”

Mr. Bush chalked up Mr. Musharraf’s decision to disclose the elimination of democracy as a “beginner’s mistake,” adding, “I’ve had six-plus years of practice at this.”

He also criticized the Pakistani dictator’s firing of the chief justice of the Supreme Court: “Trust me, if you’re going to get rid of elections, a Supreme Court could come in handy.”

Taters

That’s almost too close to be satire, Bill.

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

SUPERB WORK, LARRY! Finally, a coherent description of all that going on and our role there.

Bob Baer was on with Chris Matthews Friday afternoon.

Baer kept it simple. Our interest — our sole interest — at this time re Pakistan is counterterrorism. That is all we should focus on. Forget the democracy bullshit, etc….

I’ll have to wait ’til tomorrow to get the transcript but will try to post it. I liked Baer’s no-nonsense approach. It is also realistic.

(That said, I still think it’s cool if we sign Amnesty’s letter to Pres. Bush — if for no other reason than someone at the White House may see a blip in e-mails about human rights. It’s such a QUAINT concern, but what the hell.)
Eclaire

Brenda Stewart, I always read your comments with interest and, usually agree with your insights. However, I do beg to differ with your statement above: “They are a different kind of ppl than we are. We do not understand their way of life.”

I had the great fortune to live for 25 years in Los Angeles, where I was privileged to work with and to teach people who had immigrated from Mexico, Thailand, VietNam, Iran, India, Pakistan, Mainland China and Taiwan. Of course, this group was self-selected because they had chosen to move to the US, but in spite of the fact that our cultural contexts often left us with misunderstandings, we could always find common ground in the basic human needs: food, children, family.

We swapped recipes, worried about the effect of local high schools on our teenagers, and comiserated on the difficulties of coping with the guilt engendered by aging parents who lived a continent or two on the other side of the world. People are the same; we have just evolved different systems (some more successful than others) to enable us to cope with the difficulties of living. Scratch a vegetarian Jain or an Iranian Muslim or a Chinese Buddhist and they all, at heart, have the same human needs and desires. Let’s not make the mistake of classifying “different” people as beyond redemption or understanding.

Brenda Stewart

thank you for your correction….maybe I said it wrong. We do gather ppl of other societies around us and celebrate their differences. This is a way of communication. This has been a revelation that has made life much more fuller and richer for us all. It is that Pakistan is Pakistan and we are Americans. We can and will celebrate the differences we all have and join them in the human race. This is what it is all about; however, to go to them and say “do as I do” is not right. They are Pakistani and we are American. How can we ever know how they live or think if we do not communicate, but do not tell them how to live.

I find it very ironic to listen to how the POTUS tends to tell others how to do things…like he is the almighty one how knows how to do things.

I do not agree with that which Musharraf has done but they in that country have to figure out a way to solve this problem. Bush can only make things worse. I think the President of Pakistan knows this very well.

This was the only thing I was getting at.

Yes it is very hard to see the Pakistani ppl suffer, I do not agree with this at all! But we can not step in on every little thing that has happened for every nation and have our way with them. This, at least to me, is what is happening and it is not a good thing. This creates animosities that will be hard to overcome in the future. Sometimes it is a good thing to just say “I sm here if you need me” and let them think of a way out of the predicament they have gotten themselves in. I know I am rambling on, but I just wanted to clear the air. Thank you so much for your comment to me. I appreciate it immensely.

Yogi-one

Very good insights Larry. You’ve shown again why I like this blog.

I know some Pakistani people. Eclaire is right. They want to be able to be happy, raise their families, improve themselves through education, and have the right to find a fulfilling occupation/lifestyle. The fact that they are Muslims does not change any of that.

Have you watched the Bill Moyers segment on this? Look at those people protesting in the streets. There’s an awful lot of suits out there. These people often have western educations, and have a good understanding of how a representative government should work. The interviewed students are well-dressed, speak nearly flawless English and have intelligent things to say.

The Pakistanis are NOT the screaming suicidal maniacs the White House wants you to believe they are. Sure there are tribal areas particularly in the mountains, but as far as I am concerned they have shown quite a bit of common sense in dealing with Musharraf. Mushrarraf comes riding in on the Bush pony and tells them to go round up their clan members so he can give them a kangaroo court, then go back to Bush for an “Attaboy” and another hundred million bucks.

Of course they balked at turning in their own family and clan people. What the heck would you do if the Bushies showed up at your house and wanted you to turn your uncles in as political prisoners? Hello??

Turn off the FOX and CNN, breathe slow and deep for awhile, chill, and think about these things. Then choose carefully where you are going to get your news, because those are the ABSOLUTE WRONG sources.
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Taters

Larry, you’ve written many excellent pieces that are worth a revisit. This is another. ( I revisit the archives fairly often.) Whether you’re testifying to congress or writing a thread here – you have an exceptional ability to break things down for lay folks such as I – and help us separate the forest from the trees. Thank you for all you’ve done and what you continue to do.
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mudkitty

Bush only picks on country’s that don’t have WMDs and “nuc’u'lar” weapons.

The other despots are our allies.

http://www.food4humanity.org hoosierhoops

Bush wouldn’t know diplomacy if it hit him in the face…Why even have a State Dept under Bush?
He just cares about the DOD and treasury.

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mudkitty

Shirin said that she worked a 14 hour day. If true, how can she afford to spend so much time and bandwidth here?