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The Al Qaeda Exaggeration

By Larry Johnson on November 23, 2007 at 7:54 PM in Current Affairs

The foreign fighter and Iranian myths blew up in the Bush Administration’s face in a big way this week. Despite repeated declarations over the last year that the violence racking Iraq is the result of Al Qaeda operations and influence and Iranian meddling, the facts on the ground do not support these claims. The U.S. Army confirmed this week that the foreign fighters constitute a small fraction of the insurgent activity and that most of insurgent activity is the handiwork of Iraqi Sunnis. The New York Time’s Richard Oppel wrote:

The . . . insurgency in Iraq remains both overwhelmingly Iraqi and Sunni. American officials now estimate that the flow of foreign fighters was 80 to 110 per month during the first half of this year and about 60 per month during the summer. The numbers fell sharply in October to no more than 40, partly as a result of the Sinjar raid, the American officials say.

Oppel’s article contains three critical facts:

Saudi Arabia and Libya, both considered allies by the United States in its fight against terrorism, were the source of about 60 percent of the foreign fighters who came to Iraq in the past year to serve as suicide bombers or to facilitate other attacks, according to senior American military officials. . . .

In contrast to the comparatively small number of foreigners, more than 25,000 inmates are in American detention centers in Iraq. Of those, only about 290, or some 1.2 percent, are foreigners, military officials say. . . .

About four out of every five detainees in American detention centers are Sunni Arab, even though Sunni Arabs make up just one-fifth of Iraq’s population. All of the foreign fighters listed on the materials found near Sinjar, excluding two from France, also came from countries that are predominantly Sunni.

For years the Bush Administration has insisted that there was a direct operational tie between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. Once Saddam was no longer around, Bush and company continued to cite Al Qaeda as the culprit behind most of the murder and mayhem in Iraq. You know, fighting them there so we don’t have to fight them here.

And in September 2006 President Bush added the bogeyman of Iran to his litany of terrorism, Al Qaeda, and Iraq (see Bush’s speech, September 6, 2006) . Just last July George Bush, during a speech at the National War College, mentioned al-Qaeda 27 times.:

McClatchy’s Jonathan Landay reports, “Bush called al-Qaeda in Iraq the perpetrator of the worst violence racking that country and said it was the same group that carried out the 9/11 attacks.”

I understand the politics of terrorism and the need to trot out Al Qaeda as the ultimate threat in order to rally public support. But, if we are honest with ourselves, it is a very anemic threat. Remember the Cold War? By God we knew how to scare the bejesus out of folks back when we faced the threat of International Communism. Those were the good old days of fear mongering. The “reds” were seeking world domination. They hated God. They didn’t believe in God. I guess you can’t hate what doesn’t exist.

Oh, did I mention nukes, naval armadas, nuclear subs, million man armies, long range bombers, and sleeper agents. Whoops. Forgot about the KGB, the GRU, and their varied success in convincing Americans to betray their country for the great good of helping the Commies take over the world.

Those were the good old days. Now? We have the Global Caliphate that the crafty old Al Qaeda is Allah bent on establishing. Global Islamic rule. Sound familiar? I like to think of it as Lenin on crack with a religious bent.

Violence in Iraq? Al Qaeda of course. Why should we let the fact that the so-called leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq last year–Abu Musab Al Zarqawi–was too extreme for even Bin Laden and his deputy, Zawahiri? We should not worry about truth when we are committed to a propaganda message whose central theme is feeding the American public a steady diet of fear.

Some in the press are complicit in this charade. Note a story in Reuter’s today hyping the Al Qaeda threat:

Three suspected al Qaeda militants, including two sisters, beheaded their uncle and his wife, forcing the couple’s children to watch, Iraqi police said on Friday.

The militants considered that school guard Youssef al-Hayali was an infidel because he did not pray and wore western-style trousers, they told police interrogators after being arrested in Diyala province northwest of Baghdad.

Let me see if I got this straight. Two nieces, who are apparently religious fanatics, murder their aunt and uncle. But they are Al Qaeda? Really? Did they have a membership card? A video of them swearying bayat to Bin Laden? No and no. It would appear that Al Qaeda now is a convenient shorthand for a muslim extremist.

Let’s just act like George Bush and label all violence as Al Qaeda. Let’s continue to remind folks that Al Qaeda attacked us on 9-11. Let’s just hype the shit out of Al Qaeda. Make them 10 feet tall, with a massive global network capable of maintaining sleeper cells intact in the United States, and just biding their time to launch a nuclear strike. Make sure we are so afraid that we will lose any ability to do critical thinking and will willingly surrender our civil liberties just to be safe from the threat of the Global Caliphate.

Or, here’s an alternative. Let’s recognize that the threat posed by Islamic extremists, while real and potentially lethal, is something we can contain without losing our minds, our lives, and our freedoms. But to take that approach requires we rediscover reason and analysis. Oppel’s fine article is a step in that direction.

mudkitty

You mean the Al Qaeda that’s less than 2% of the Iraqi insurgency, according to the Pentagon, The State Dpt., The Defense Dpt., all the Generals on the ground, and then some? That Al Qaeda?

Of course, they only admit that when under oath.

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

Yeah, that 2%, which didn’t exist until after Bush invaded.
Jess Wonderin

1%???? lawdy, lawdy, gawd hep us if’n they BRED!!!!

http://joyhollywood.blogspot.com Connie L

There are still people coming on tv saying that we have to fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here. Am I they only one who thinks that’s an immoral statement? Iraq didn’t attack us on 911 Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda made up of mostly Saudis killed nearly 3000 Americans on 911. According to the new reports on Afghanistan, we are losing the war on terrorism where it all originated. The U.S. Army says the fighting is mostly Iraqs fighting each other in Iraq. You’d never know it watching Fox news or President Bush or Vice President Cheney. What does that say about lying to Americans for what? When are our wonderful leaders made accountable?

http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

As Michael Moore said at the time:

A Saudi millionaire attacked our country!

http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

Oops, qualifier: IF we can believe anything said about bin Forgotten.

Shirin

Actually, Connie, according to studies by CSIS, which is hardly a left-wing or anti-war organization, the majority of attacks in Iraq have been by Iraqis against the occupation. (Or more accurately, the majority of attacks that are not committed by American troops are by Iraqis against the occupation. I have not seen any reports lately, but I believe that overall the majority of attacks are still being committed by the Americans against Iraqis.)

That means the majority of the “fighting” (since The Surge™ started the Americans have averaged – working from memory here, so someone can correct me if necessary – some 40 or so bombing sorties per day, and I do not think of bombing people as fighting) is between Iraqi resistance forces (propagandistically misnamed “the insurgency”) and forces of the occupation. That means that the real “enemy” the troops are battling against in Iraq is………Iraqi people who are fighting against a foreign occupation of their country.

Taters

You parked it Larry.

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

No shit. Leave it to Larry to lay it out.

I love this in particular, for a reason: ” But, if we are honest with ourselves, it [Al Qaeda] is a very anemic threat. Remember the Cold War? …”

The reason? Because of the ‘wingers who trot out Larry’s July 2001 NYT op-ed on the relative lack of danger from terrorism every time they want to ridicule him, with 9/11 occurring shortly thereafter.

But Larry is correct. All of us Americans have a vastly greater chance of being murdered by a drunk driver or — where I live — a deer that’s not been taught to look first before crossing the highway.

And the Cold War was vastly more serious. (Speaking of which, some better and more constructive attention to Russia should be paid. Russia is growing in power, influence and wealth … I just saw a report on BBC World News America about the staggering rise in the number of millionaires in Russia, and how they’re spending their new wealth.)

Or poor or no medical care. Or incorrect medical care. Or tainted drugs. And on and on.

We have REAL issues and REAL problems that we should rightly be worried about. Overall, terrorism is not high on the list. (Also of note: Terrorism has been exploited to ruin any chance of rational discussion about the immigration/illegal alien issues.)

I’m also surprised by the vast sums of money our government can expend to fight the remote chance of a terrorist attack and on an insane war but cannot afford two concerns that graced the front page of my local newspaper yesterday:

(1) the car ferries that were built in the 1920s and are now leaking so badly that they’ve been taken out of service, leaving two important local destinations out of reach for the people who use them for work, recreation, and tourism — we apparently haven’t the funds to fix 87+-year-old ferries or replace them, when they bring in millions in annual revenue for all affected businesses on both ends (and along with that untold sums in tax earnings)? and

(2) the state of the national park near me — all of the camping spots are falling into disrepair and are essentially “returning to nature” as vegetation grows over all of the picnic tables, benches, signage, and more.

ALSO: The local park rangers are keeping a visitor center open to the utterly exquisite and rare rainforest here by running the building’s electricity on generators because they cannot afford to pay for the power lines to be restored following the wind storm we had about 10+ days ago. (They are trying to negotiate a reasonable sum with the local utility, which also needs to pay its staff, etc.)

I must live in a “third world” nation. But at least we’re winning the “war on terrorism.”

http://cujo359.blogspot.com Cujo359

Our priorities are so out of whack it’s a wonder we’ve survived this long. Have we always been this stupid? Hard to believe, but we probably have.

To me, the Cold War was a great example of how the rhetoric way outdistanced the actual threat. Once Stalin was gone, the USSR was pretty much past its empire-building days. Yet again and again you heard about all the threatening things that they were up to, which generally turned out to be pretty much what we were also up to in the interests of defending ourselves.

Plus, all those references to “atheistic communism” haven’t made us any more tolerant of alternative religions. Larry’s reference to many Americans’ seeming belief that atheists hated something that they thought didn’t exist is a case in point. Utter lack of critical thought led to that fear. We spent hundreds of billions feeding that fear, and now we’re doing the same with something that’s clearly much less threatening than World Communism was on its least threatening day.

Fred C. Dobbs

But, of course, the godless Bolshevik bastards have left us an intellectual traditon of “seck-you-lar HOO-man-ism” among the Northeastern Elite and the college professors and movie producers on The Left COast.

I’m sure you’ll all join with me as Right-Thinkin’ Murricans in Resisting the War Against Jingoism cooked up by these pointy-headed Fellow Travelers and only believe news and commentary from REAL Smart Americans, like Sean, “I was a housepainter in Santa Barbara,” Hannity and Bill “There’s No Money in Teaching” O’Reilly.

Let’s bring back Censorship, Mandatory prayer in public schools and unwarranted surveillance of the populace, just like the Good Old Days, before Oprah and The Pill.

Isn’t Tailgunner Joe McCarthy’s birthday coming up soon? We can schedule a book burning in his honor…

REMEMBER!! Ein Reich! Ein Volk!!! Ein Decider!!!!

Chris Vosburg

By way of reminder, there is no evidence linking bin Laden to the event of 9/11/01.

Sometime-CIA-Defender

Are you talking in a legal/courtroom evidence sense or at least circumstantial/arrestable sense? There are the video tapes, such as the one that’s essentially a Taliban supporter’s home movie taken soom after 9/11 where OBL is very careful not to say he had anything to do with it, but mentions a local man who had prophetic dreams that might have had to kill him had his dreams been any more accurate? Seems pretty clear to me.

just joe

The estimated (high estimate) 850 members of al qaeda in Iraq are going to take over the country. The fear mongering lies of Cheney and Lieberman and the rest of the ignorant supporters seem to just want war. Any withdrawal they call surrender and they live in some fantasy world of comic books…not reality. It’s like trying to argue with a drunk making them aware of the fallacy of their position.

What Bush/Cheney are really after…the number one benchmark are the oil Profit Sharing Agreements (PSAs).
It’s what they want from Iran also. It’s what they always wanted…that and a chance to profiteer from all the contracting.

It’s the Iraqis that are telling us that there will never be any true security as long as there is a foreign occupying force in their country.
Bush will never leave Iraq unless he is forced to leave. He has already boasted that he will make it “impossible” for the next president to leave Iraq.

Only 2 ways out. one is to impeach Cheney/Bush and the other is to stop the funding. The dems don’t need 60 votes to end this thing. All they have to do is not let a funding bill come to the floor for a vote. If the repubs try to bring one up…filibuster it and make them get the 60 votes. Bush wants what congress has not the other way around. I’m talking immediate withdrawal not dragging it out till the ’09 elections and taking the chance that Bush will attack Iran. NJo force left behind to train Police, no permanent bases…a complete withdrawal. Hell, Bush hasn’t felt pressured enough to even have the pentagon draw up withdrawal ‘plans’. He thinks he can keep using the troops as blackmail while calling a withdrawal, “surrender”. Surrender to who…the 850 al qaeda members? the Sunnis? the Shiites? Enough is enough. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and he can’t continue to hold the world hostage for something supposedly 19 people carried out. No Iran attack and get out of Iraq.
btw Larry….IS OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD NOW A WELL OILED MACHINE?
http://thumbsnap.com/v/78mn2yFc.jpg 1Watt

Item 1: If you understand your foe, ya might know how to deal with them : http://tinyurl.com/24o8a

Item 2: The right aren’t, they are cowards, afraid of a bee whether it stings them or not.

Item 3: Just because you believe something doesn’t make it true.
http://thumbsnap.com/v/78mn2yFc.jpg 1Watt

forgot

item 4. G.W. is dumber than Doug Feith.

Kathleen

Feith is not so dumb. He is still running free after being part of the team to lie and lead Americans into an unnecessary and immoral war. Feith continues to walk and talk, when he should be doing time in the slammer for creating and dessiminating false WMD intelligence.

Where is the complete Phase II of the SSCI
Throw Rove in jail please!

http://www.deadtide.com Kyle

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/22/world/middleeast/22fighters.html?amp;ei=5088&en=bfd15af8c1a2e4af&partner=rssnyt&ex=1353387600&emc=rss&pagewanted=print

According to this 60 percent of the foreign fighters are Libyan and Saudi. These are our allies. With friends like these who needs syphilis?
Jess Wonderin

Bushcons NEEDS Al Kyda and the Boys to keep producing hits . . . if they fall off the Hit Parade their payola will stop.

How is it that we could live quite well in a world when an acknowledged super power with hundreds of newkleer weapon and the equipment to deliver it anywhere in the U.S. within a few meters of it’s target, had a leader that actually claimed “he would bury us” and with ALL that pressure we were quite able to develop a middle class, provide for a functioning military, had an industrial base, and a complete Constitution and Bill of Rights tossed in . . .

But Bush has single handedly destroyed our economy, drained the treasury, gutted our military and pissed away 200 years of International Goodwill fighting an enemy that has been estimated a about 2% of the hostile forces facing us . . . makes you wonder just what kind of mess we would be in in a REAL war . . .

TeakwoodKite

We are in it now.

Kathleen

Journalist Jonathon Landay was on the mark before the invasion of Iraq, too bad the rest of the MSMers were not paying attention.

“Containment” now that is music to some of these retired military officers and analyst ears. Like that Larry “how about we rediscover reason and analysis” Imagine
Shirin

“Bush called al-Qaeda in Iraq the perpetrator of the worst violence racking that country…”

How dare he say that? The United States military, of which he is the “Commander Guy” is the perpetrator of the worst violence wracking the country. It is, after all, the United States military that has destroyed hundreds of neighborhoods, villages, towns and cities in Iraq. It is the United States that has conducted tens of bombing sorties every day. It is the United States that blows homes as punishment.
CK

So the Saudis and Libyans are supplying the “Lincoln Brigades” for this civil war? (A Lincoln Brigade being the happy-face name for mercenaries who are your proxies while terrorists is the frowny-face name for mercenaries who are not your proxies.)
I am persuaded that dead Irony has risen from its grave and is doing the hamster dance.
So can we get a point spread on the Lincoln Brigades vs Blackwater, Dynacorp, Triple Canopy et.al.? Which group has “home field advantage”? Which team has the injured QB?

Cee

while terrorists is the frowny-face name for mercenaries who are not your proxies.)

LOL!

They all get paid. US taxpayers and Iraqi citizens lose.
I’m waiting for Austialians to take another hit since W’s friend lost the election.

Got to scare the new guy into supporting the war on the frowny faces.

Kathleen

Iraq is our Sabra and Shatilla. The radical neo-cons seem to know exactly what they are doing almost as if they have done it before. Create an enviroment in Iraq for a genocide and collective disorientation to take place.

Psychopathic rat bastards. Where are Liv and David Wurmser, Rhode and Hannah?

We need an article about where ‘are all the neo-cons’
Pingback: The Al Qaeda Exaggeration » at deschutesdemocrats.org
Philip Henika

What 9/11 stole from everyone in America was ‘expertise’. I can recall someone saying that ‘there is no such thing as a terrorism expert’. Maybe some of you heard that too.

Oddly, this total loss of expertise put us all into the same boat. However, agendas drove many to jump ship – the Bush Administration’s agenda was the exercise of the military option only – an option which has branched into private contracts such as Blackwater.

Inaccurate assessments of the progress of the GWOT by the Bush Admininstration became commomplace – Larry’s reiiterates here in detail the overblown status of Al Qaeda in Iraq. The Bush Administation prevails with a lack of specifics. There are victories over the “insurgency” so, which of the over 20 insurgencies in Iraq would that be?

I think we have improved our vigilance and ability to disrupt terrorism group operations. It takes time to set up a bioweapons lab – note the progress Saddam Hussein made vs. Al Qaeda. And we now have blogs such as Larry’s No Quarter and The Counterterrorism Blog i.e. we can piece together the details that the Bush Administration does not deliver.

America has, however, pretty much neglected the countermotivation side of the counterterrorism equation. In order for this to happen the Bush Administration will have to work with the likes of the UN, Carter Center, Al Gore and Bill Clinton.

A global peacebuilding initiative is, IMO, the antithesis to the New World’s plans for WWWIII. It puts us all back in the same nonexpertise boat and you see it with, for example, desperate calls by the UN for international cooperation re: global warming.
Yogi-one

C’mon Larry! There must be SOME WAY to justify invading Iran!

Isn’t that the job of the CIA nowadays – to fix the intelligence around the policy?
mudkitty

Al Qaeda is under the bed!

mudcat

Along with the weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

Comment by mudkitty | 2007-11-24 13:28:25

Al Qaeda is under the bed

Except the suitcase nukes..they’re in the closet…

http://www.caplewoodblog.com Laney

The military/neocon is trying its best to make Islamists as threatening as communism, Nazism, et al. Here ( http://www.news-journal.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/11/06/11062007_veterans_ceremony.html )an Air Force general explains the 100 year plan for world domination.
(You may have to cut-and paste the link.)

CK

Iknew it, the USA is really fighting Pinky and the Brain —
Come on folks this is America the country where 90 days is considered long term planning; 100 years is almost longer than the useful life of a Model T Ford.

Fred C. Dobbs

>>> Except the suitcase nukes..they’re in the closet…

Recently, pursuant to my career change, I attended training by a state agency dealing with the threat to Las Vegas from terrorism.

The instructor, a woman with 21 years’ experience in emergency planning and law enforcement, passed around a medium attache case and informed us that: “…a nuke-you-lar weapon this size with a yield of seventeen megatons, or the size of the Hiroshima bomb (sic)” would fit under the seat of a Ford Crown Victoria and would, if “ignited” at the corner of Sahara Avenue and Las Vegas Boulevard, knock down all the buildings from McCarran Airport to the Palomino Club.

This was just SO fucked up that I had to pull in a couple of favors and determine that this otherwise-friendly but dumber than owl shit public servant draws $116,000+ annually.

Or about three times what the local School Board pays a high school physics teacher, who MIGHT be able to explain JUST how much plutonium it takes to make a, “seventeen megaton bomb,” or how much it actually might weigh (hint: neither BUFF ((B-52)) nor BEAR ((Tu-95)) would be able to carry it to San Bernardino from here).

And, “ignited?!?”

Ah, Jesus, Oppenheimer and George Kistiakoski wept…

For the record, I pulled out an old formula for calculation of blast damage at various yields and altitudes and concluded, after careful calculation, the following:

A FIFTEEN megaton air burst (should you be lucky enough to find a nuke that big, and lift it) at 2500 feet above the intersection of Sahara and Las Vegas Boulevard would kick the absoulte crap out of everything that breathes, swims and flies from St. George to Barstow, and probably bust most of the windows out in Salt Lake City, Flagstaff and much of San Luis Obispo.

Sigh. Not to mention that the “Little Boy” device at Hiroshima yielded around seventeen KILO – tons, vice MEGA tons.

They steal money from me as taxes to pay people this frigging dumb to talk about shit they can’t comprehend… and pay them WELL for it… in the name of National Security.

Now really. Under the seat of a Crown Vic?

Naw. It’d take at LEAST an F-150…

mudcat

I’m sure the Iraqi people truly appreciate the fact that we’re fighting them over there, so we don’t have to fight them over here. I’m sure they think that’s dandy!

The whole “roach motel” theory is one that’s bound to make all in the middle east appreciate, to no end, what we’re doing over there.

Kathleen

With over one million Iraqi people dead 3% of their population which would be 9 million here in the states and 4 million displaced which would equate to around 42 million in the states they must be tickled red that we invaded their country for not attacking us. How in the hell can we wonder why people hate us?

But hold on I don’t want to let too much of the hell on the ground in Iraq to burst my bubble. Need to go shopping and listen to canned Holiday music and buy buy buy. Jesus Mary and Joseph we are a bunch of sick degenerates

http://thumbsnap.com/v/78mn2yFc.jpg 1Watt

Al Qaeda is under the bed! and in your military.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2007/11/anti-crusader-mikey-weinstein.html

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

It was only a matter of time before al Qaeda infiltrated the US. [Snort.] So we’re fighting them over there, so we don’t have to fight them here, except when they’re here…now what Bush? But “we’re winning”! [double snort]

catherine

Oh, please. Like any member of the coalition can tell the difference between an Iraqi and an Iranian, and Iraqi and a Saudi, an Iraqi and an Afghan, an Iraqi and a Syrian, etc. You’ve seen one middle-eastern fighter, you’ve seen them all, to paraphrase the much lamented (god know why) Ronald Reagan.

How do you even remain upright with no firing neurons in your brain?

mutter, mutter, mutter

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

I think US and Iraqi forces can estimate how many foreigners are entering Iraq based on border observations, captures, etc. Weapons and IEDs can be traced to their origins, as can the groups/individuals engaged in attacks through police work.

Regarding your observation that no one can tell the difference between Iraqis, Iranians, Saudis, Afghans and Syrians because they all look alike?!

Have you traveled much within the US and beyond? Because, I don’t know about you, but I can usually spot a Southerner, a Bostoner, or a Texan, etc., by their accents. Plus, generally speaking, Iraqis speak Arabic, Kurdi, and other languages. Iranians speak Farsi. Afghans speak Pashtu, Dari, Persian, Uzbek and other languages. There are cultural differences as well. They don’t all look alike, sound alike or act alike.

Shirin

I think, Leslie, that Catherine was saying that the Americans (aka members of the nonexistent “coalition”) cannot tell the difference, and I am sure that “all hajjis look alike” to them.

Montag

Shirin,
Reminds me of a true story. There was a Communist Party march in Tennessee in the 1930s or thereabouts. A young man was watching the march while wearing a red sweater with the initials, “CP” on it. He was a member of the Cumberland Presbyterian Church. A mounted policeman sees him and starts beating him with his nightstick. The young man cries out, “But Officer, I’m an ANTI-Communist!” The cop snarls, “I don’t care WHAT kind of a Communist you are!” The beating continued.
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

Oh, I couldn’t tell if she was being sarcastic?

Shirin

I think she was being sarcastic, Leslie, but it’s easy to miss that in this medium.

http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

Forgot the /snark?
Shirin, so true. Furthermore, US doesn’t know who we’re fighting there and hasn’t since day one. It’s a war on brownish people. Period. Our usual M.O.

Shirin

Yup!

GSD

We are weeks away from the establishment of Sharia Law in Peoria.

America is doomed!

I haven’t seen a threat this hyped since the killer bees.

-GSD

TeakwoodKite

To bad I was getting used to the call to prayer.

Shirin

Actually, hearing the call to prayer wafting over the city fugue-like from all different directions is one of the things I miss most. It is in particular one of the most beautiful things to wake up to, and the sunset call to prayer is another of my favourites.

Throughout the day whether you pray or not, it inspires you to pause in your activities for just a moment and put your focus outside yourself. It is similar to, but in some way more compelling than church bells that use music to mark the time of day. There is something reassuring about it – something that is dependable every day regardless of everything else that might seem chaotic.

Centrocitta

…..It is similar to, but in some way more compelling than church bells that use music to mark the time of day…..

Shirin, some church bells are musical and some are not. But NONE are rung to mark the time of day. The bells are used to remind the faithful to stop what they are doing and say the Angelus. The Angelus are the words that were used by the Angel Gabriel when he appeared to Mary and told her she would be the Mother of God. The prayer is:

“Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Bessed art thou and blessed be the fruit of thy womb. Holy Mary, Mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death, Amen”. The bells are rung every day at:

6:00 AM — to pray the Angelus for peace and victory against Turkish invaders

At Noon — to pray the Angelus and remember the time of day Christ was put on the Cross

At 6:00 PM –to pray the Angelus for the safety and success of the Crusades

Centrocitta

…..Bessed art thou and blessed be the fruit of thy womb……

This sentence should be: “Blessed art thou, AMONGST WOMEN, and Blessed be the fruit of thy womb”.
mudcat

Excuse me, where I grew up, Church bells were used to mark the time of day – the number of chimes marked the hour…2 chimes for Two O’clock, 3 chimes for 3 o’clock…etc.

Centrocitta

Mudcat, I grew up in the Catholic Northeast (mid-Atlantic, actually). Our Church bells rang for the reasons I already gave. They also ring for those same reasons in Italy. In my Catholic school, we said the Angelus when the bells rang at Noon. When I lived in Austin, Texas, I never heard any church bells at all. It’s really pointless for churchs to ring bells to mark the time, isn’t it, considering there are so many clocks and watches around?

mudcat

It’s really pointless to argue that where other people grew up, the reality may have been different from yours.

Shirin

I, too, have lived in places where church bells rang hourly to mark the time of day, and at certain hours they played beautiful music. There is also a historic Catholic church right next to my office building, and the bells ring at regular times throughout the day. I have not paid attention to the specific times, but I do not think it is only three times a day. I will pay more attention next week if I remember.

Centrocitta

…..There is also a historic Catholic church right next to my office building, and the bells ring at regular times throughout the day…..

Shirin, it’s not a church. It’s a Cathedral and something tells me you’re talking about St. Mary’s at 9th & Congress in Austin, Texas.

In 1999, I was stopping into St. Mary’s at least once a week to pray — until I was banned by a court order in my divorce decree from going wthin 500 yards of that office building next door. I could and should have argued that the State of Texas was prohibiting me from practicing my Catholic faith, which indeed, it was, but fortunately, I got to come to Italy where I can pray anywhere I want to, including the Vatican.

Centrocitta

But Sirin, you could also be referring to the church next door to yor office building as St. Matthews Cathedral in Wshington, DC. When I was working on Embassy Row (Massachsetts Ave.), I used to walk down to St. Matthews on my lunch hour. I remember having made one of the best decisons of my life when I was sitting in a pew at St. Matthews.

If you haven’t arrived in your office by 6:00 AM, you wouldn’t hear the first Angelus Bell. You would hear the Noon Bell and possibly the 6 PM Bell. You might also hear some hourly bells to mark the time but they would not sound the same as the three Angelus Bells at 6, Noon and 6.

JFK had his funeral Mass said at St. Matthews Cathedral.
Centrocitta

Oh, by the way, everyone. Guess who was governor when the State of Texas denied me the right to practice my Catholic faith?
mudcat

twoCents – So you had a restraining order? And you got divorced? Isn’t divorce taboo for a Catholic? Or even any Xian? Jesus rails against divorce in the bible, more than any single other issue.

A restraining order. There must have been a good reason for it. No?

Centrocitta

I don’t recall saying one word about a restraining order — particularly since neither party ever asked for one. Also, I find it rather odd that the divorce record is not listed in the public record with all the other divorces for that year. If I didn’t know better, I might think somebody is getting special treatment and to HELL with the rights of the natural born American citizen, if you get my drift.

Divorce is taboo for two Catholics married in the Catholic church. If one marries outside the faith, as I did, the church is not concerned. It just wants to make sure I marry a Catholic next time.

Shirin

“I was banned by a court order in my divorce decree from going wthin 500 yards of that office building”

That usually takes the form of a restraining order. If it is ordered by a court as part of a settlement, it has the same purpose and serves the same function as a restraining order.
Centrocitta

A restraining order was never sought by either party. So I should have and could have argued that I not be prohibited from practicing my faith in that Cathedral. In fact, I think I can still argue it.
Shirin

And yet in connection with your divorce you were prohibited by court order not to go within 500 yards of a certain office building.

Hmmmmm.
Centrocitta

Shirin, you keep going around and around with the same song. Bottom line, my civil rights were violated throughout this entire sham. Hmmmmm.
Shirin

Well, I am glad that by making some nostalgic comments about the call to prayer I provided you with an opportunity to air your personal troubles here. }

Shirin

Centrocita, with all due respect you have no earthly idea which church I am talking about. It is not, however, in Texas, and it is not a cathedral, it is a church.

In any case, this is a silly, pointless argument. The call to prayer occurs at certain times of the day. Its purpose is not to mark the time of day, but it does so nevertheless. The purpose of church bells may or may not be to mark the time of day, but they do nevertheless.

Centrocitta

Shirin, I don’t think you’d know the difference between a Cathedral and a Church. Maybe you should try asking some of your Sunni friends, like maybe someone who comes from around Bethlehem or Nazareth. Sunni’s from these parts are even known to attend Catholic schools for formative education.

Shirin

Centrocitta, I am sure you know infinitely more about the difference between a cathedral and a church than I do, but the church to which I refer is, in fact, a church – a Catholic church, and a historic one – and not a cathedral. It might shock you to hear that I have even been inside it. Oh yes – and there is at least one cathedral in this city, and I have been inside that too.

And what is this nonsense about asking “some of my Sunni friends” who come from around Bethlehem or Nazareth? Sorry, but nearly all the people I know who come from “around Bethlehem or Nazareth” are Christians, not “Sunnis”.

But Centrocitta, I’ll bet it will come as a complete shock to you to discover that there are – or rather were before the 2003 “liberation” – lots and lots of Churches of all different kinds in Iraq, and that most of them are centuries and centuries and centuries older than any church in the United States, and are older even than some of the historic churches in Europe.

Now, this is REALLY going to shock the hell out of you, Centrocitta, but for decades and decades one of the most prestigious high schools in Baghdad has been – gasp! sputter! – a CATHOLIC school! The best Muslim (Sunni AND Shi`a), Jewish, and Christian (and Yezidi, and Mandaean, and “other”) families sent their kids there, including my family.
Centrocitta

Shirin, I’m not at all shocked that one of the most prestigious schools in Baghdad prior to 2003 was a Catholic school which students from all faiths attended. That’s why I told you Sunni’s in Palestine also go to Catholic schools. And just for the record, it wasn’t Palestinians who damaged the Church of the Nativity. It was the Israeli Army.
Shirin

Then why did you suggest that I should ask my “Sunni friends from around Nazareth and Bethlehem” about the difference between a cathedral and a church?

And I know very well who damaged the Church of the Nativity. I followed that situation in great detail.

Centrocitta

Shirin said……..There is also a historic Catholic church right next to my office building, and the bells ring at regular times throughout the day……..

Shirin also said…..Centrocita, with all due respect you have no earthly idea which church I am talking about. It is not, however, in Texas, and it is not a cathedral, it is a church…..

On second thought, Shirin, St. Matthews in Washington, DC is an OLD Cathedral but I don’t believe it has ever been referred to as Historic. In fact, it’s rather ODD for an old place of Catholic worship to ever be called “Historic” because Churches just ARE.

St. Mary’s Cathedral in Austin, TX, most definitely IS referred to as Historic– with Texas being the strange place that it is and all that. In fact, St. Mary’s is listed on the Texas Historical record. “Historic” was YOUR word, Shirin, to describe the church next to your offce buildng — not mine.

Shirin

Centrocitta, there are lots and lots and lots and lots of historic churches and cathedrals all over the world. Not all of them are in Texas or DC. Why not all of them are even even Catholic.

The church I referred to is a church, not a cathedral, and it is historic. Like the majority of churches, historic, and otherwise, it is not in Texas, and it is not in DC. Oh – and this particular church IS Catholic.

Now, Centrocitta, it is undoubtedly true that you know more about Catholicism than I do, despite the fact that I do have Catholic friends, and even some relatives-by-marriage who are Catholic, and despite the fact that I have actually attended Catholic services. I bow to your superior knowledge in that regard.

Shirin

Excuse me, Centrocita, but church bells ring at certain times of day to remind the faithful, exactly as the call to prayer is made five times a day, at certain times, to remind the faithful to pray.

They also mark the time of day by ringing at certain times.

TeakwoodKite

I only mentioned that I missed the call to prayer…LOL. When the “Shock and Awe” began
CNN had a stationary camera somewhere in Baghdad…it look at a building, never moving. As the nights bombs wore off, you would hear the wind, an occasional passing car and the morning Call to Prayer. The voice sang as if connected to antiquity, a melody echoing down thru time and enduring, but very solemn.A real contrast to the night of the unknown horrors of violence.

Kathleen

I have gotten to know several Muslims fairly well and the commitment to pray five times a day is an inspiration.

Similar to the Dalai Lama’s advice to attempt to operate in ones life out of a state of prayer, compassion and empathy. Not just in church on Sunday

mudcat

Let me say this to all you pray-ers out there. Get this straight. Helping hands are better than praying lips. Positive action is better than prayer.

Montag

Or The Attack of The Killer Tomatoes. I still have a lock on my refrigerator door, just in case!
http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

Larry, thanks for fumigating the bu$hler bogeyman, Al Kaider. Can the ubiquitous “masked gunmen” be next?

And, hey, Saudi AND LIBYA? I thought the colonel was on our good-toad list for abandoning terrism. Guess his people don’t agree.