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Tracking Americans by Cell Phone + Friday Open Thread

By Leslie on November 23, 2007 at 7:47 PM in Current Affairs

Privacy is such an old-fashioned idea!

So what’s on your mind? Did everyone enjoy their Thanksgiving?

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    Oh man, what’s the American government going to do with ME?

    See, I hate cell phones and find it obnoxious to see people wherever I go with their cell phones glued to their ears. I cannot imagine what they’re talking about all the time, and to whom … and I quite fear their conversations are so mundane (we Americans are not known for our great conversational abilities as opposed to our British cousins) that I rather fear for the level of boredom that must stifle the mental acuity of employees of the NSA.

    Anyway, when I was coming home from the hospital, the physical therapists and others advised me to buy a cell phone that I could carry on my person at all times and call for help if I should fall. So I dutifully had my neighbor go to a drug store and buy me a throw-away.

    I first plugged the battery thingie in backwards, but sorted that out by the next day after it had failed to power up. Then I followed the instructions to call the 800 number to sign on and activate the phone. That never happened. Even my daughter tried. But, she said that the 800#’s instructions warned her that it could take up to 24 HOURS (WHAT?@!@@@!!)))) for the phone to begin working. It never began working. Four weeks-plus later, the cell phone lies on my bedstand, all powered up with with “unsubscribed” flashing on its face. Oh dear.

    My daughter found it so difficult that she remarked, “Thieves and bank robbers and terrorists buy these throwaway cell phones to avoid detection, and they ALL have to go through all of this every time they buy a new phone?” I wonder. My crew is waiting for its instructions….

    • Kathleen

      I resisted phone recording machines 25 years ago and then found they can be effective and useful if they do not own you. The same goes for cell phones. Useful tools. I have made it very clear to family and friends that I will not beholden to every phone call every whim, but of course will return emergency phone calls immediately.

      I listen once or twice a day, return those phone calls when it works for me (of course with three grown kids, I do return those phone calls, and they do not abuse my feelings about the over use of the tech world. Cell phones are tools use them when you need them. Turn them off the rest of the time.

  • PrchrLady

    Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I have one now as my main phone, only because my children added me onto their plan for 9.99 a month, with unlimited long distance calling… but the only thing I do is charge it, answer it if I know who is calling, and how to answer voice mail. It only took me 6 months to learn that much, with step by step instructions from the kids… ugh. almost as bad as trying to get this computer stuff right…

    I am totally disgusted by the reports of another 10,000 wounded with TBI that has remained hidden. In addition to that I have now heard that casualities may be as high as 61,000. and no that is not an error. http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/28864 This coupled with the dirty tricks being played on our soldiers to get them out without providing them with the help they so desperately need makes me just ill… http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16330374

    How do we get congress to do something, since bushco is so intent on destroying the men and women who have served with honor??? How indeed?

  • Steve

    Cell phones are handy but there are rules to remember.

    1, keep the phone simple!!! avoid cameras, GPS monitors, speaker phone features, etc.

    A plain old Cell like a simple LG flip phone will be hard to track and will require actual hands-on police action through your carrier to track. That is time consuming, generally requires a warrant, and generates paperwork, all anathema to “thought police” type extremists playing cop.

    2 Keep your phone off as much as possible, use it wisely and then shut down. Let messages acculmulate and delete any that feature restricted, out of area, or are numbers you don’t know. Stick to a list of known numbers like Doctor, Vet, such family as you trust, and maybe the power company, your work numbers, and the AAA.

    3, take your phone with you only as needed. You likely won’t need it at the theater, the opera, the movies, the local watering hole or at a PTA meeting. Use only as needed!

    Don’t become a mark because your phone gave you away!

    4, if you can code lock your phone do so.

    • Kathleen

      Jesus Mary and Joseph what would I have that “they” would want or want to know. I am a fucking peasant.

  • CK

    Any government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have.
    ( D.Crockett Rep Tenn.)
    Any small increase in convenience will be accompanied by a larger decrease in privacy.

  • Kathleen
  • Kathleen

    Larry and all would you consider posting the website Muzzlewatch to your blog recommendations?

    http://www.muzzlewatch.org/

  • Taters

    Well there’s good news in Australia – the people have spoken and Prime Minister/first rank Bush enabler John Howard has been appropriately consigned to the junkheap of failure. Shall I say – good riddance?

    Howard’s Reign in Australia is Over

    ROHAN SULLIVAN, Associated Press Writer
    40 minutes ago

    Labor Party leader Kevin Rudd swept to power in Australian elections Saturday, ending an 11-year conservative era and promising major changes to policies on global warming and his country’s role in the Iraq war.

    “Today Australia has looked to the future,” Rudd said in a nationally televised victory speech, to wild cheers from supporters. “Today the Australian people have decided that we as a nation will move forward … to embrace the future, together to write a new page in our nation’s history.”

    The win marked a humiliating end to the career of outgoing Prime Minister John Howard, who became Australia’s second-longest serving leader — and who had appeared almost unassailable as little as a year ago.

    In a nationally televised concession speech, Howard announced he had phoned Rudd to congratulate him on “a very emphatic victory.”

    “I accept full responsibility for the Liberal Party campaign, and I therefore accept full responsibility for the coalition’s defeat in this election campaign,” Howard said.

    Howard also admitted he was likely to lose his seat in Parliament, becoming only the second sitting prime minister in 106 years of federal government to do so.

    Official figures from the Australian Electoral Commission showed Labor well ahead with more than 70 percent of the ballots counted. An Australian Broadcasting Corp. analysis showed that Labor would get at least 81 places in the 150-seat lower house of Parliament — a clear majority.

    ABC radio reported that Howard aides said the prime minister had phoned Rudd to concede defeat. Rudd was expected to formally claim victory later Saturday.

  • Sandy

    I have a cell phone pretty much for emergencies. It is turned off most of the time. Another point–you can check you cell phone messages from your plain old-fashioned telephone at home or work. Each carrier has different method, but for my Verizon phone you:

    1. Call your cell phone from a regular phone (my cell is off when I do this so the call rolls right into my voice mail).
    2. When the voice mail message on your cell phone begins, press the # key.
    3. The automated voice will ask for your 4-digit PIN number. Type that in.
    4. Voila! You can now check, save (9), or delete (7) your phone messages from a regular phone that is not as easy to tap (legally). Also saves your cell phone minutes if you are on a limited plan (as am I).

    • Centrocitta

      Sandy, I can’t believe you would be charged for using cell phone minutes when you’re checking, saving or deleting messages. That sounds like a big rip off. Glad it doesn’t work like that in Europe.

      • Kathleen

        You sure do get charged

  • mudcat

    On Law And Order a few nights ago, they tracked a missing girl via cell phone.

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      Yeah. Every time I read a story about someone whose car fell down a ravine — as happened near Seatttle recently — and she was only found after about 11 days and only because of her cell phone, I know I’m doomed. I’ll just lay there and curse myself for ever hating cell phones.

      Btw, it took so long to find that woman because the police focused suspicion on her husband who didn’t report her missing for almost two days. Why? They were saving for a house, and both worked two jobs, and rarely ever ran into each other when they were on their full work schedules, so when he came home from one of his jobs and didn’t see her, he thought she was at work. Sigh.

      The husband KEPT TELLING THEM to try locating her via her cell phone, but the police IGNORED him until finally — after many days — they did it.

      At the time, the husband was at the police station undergoing a lie detector test, to which he’d consented. They interrupted his test to tell him they’d located her via the cell phone.

      There she was down a deep hill off a well-traveled highway, completely concealed from detection from the road or even by air. She was so dehydrated that her kidneys had shut down, and she had a severe leg injury and almost had to have her leg amputated … luckily, Seattle’s level trauma one hospital is superb at handling such cases and she’s on the mend.

      (This isn’t a generic complaint about police. Whenever I’ve had any occasion to interact with police, they’ve been nothing but exceptionally helpful and caring. And husbands are always a focus when a wife disappears, so ….)

  • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

    B-b-b-ut you guys, this post isn’t about tracking people during an emergency, fictional or otherwise. It’s about government spying on Americans without probable cause, without warrants.

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      It’s my fault. Then again, perhaps we’ve become resigned to it all. After all, what in the world can we do about it? Even if THEY tell us that THEY are no longer doing it, how can we possibly know?

      • http://noquarterusa.net/blog/ Leslie

        I’m not used to it. I’d like to know how many government agencies are involved in illegal domestic spying? How many innocent people have been targeted? We’re just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

        • http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

          The NSA doesn’t spy on us citizens..
          Bush said so..
          Should i list everything else he said?
          WMD’s..Iraq a world-wide threat..
          He didn’t know about Val..
          oh why bother.. i could list his ‘truthful’
          statements all night…
          ps..good to see you posting again leslie..

        • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

          Leslie, you will know that when? And you will be confident of your information? (I’m genuinely serious — to which honest investigator can we turn who can in turn get to the bottom of it?)

  • Cee

    They can track you. They can also block you from making or receiving cell phone calls.

    I learned this at an antiwar protest.

    Resistance is futile!

  • Cee

    Leslie,

    What do you think of the plans of people who want to target the net and the flow of information?

    http://www.knowledgedrivenrevolution.com/Articles/200711/20071119_IOR_3_Fight_Net.htm

    I better learn how to do smoke signals.

  • PrchrLady

    yes I still have proof on my computer that they can get in and read and copy files on my computer. and this started beore 911… possibly, but not definately, before busho came to power in the coup of 2000… I have always been label a conspiracy nut by many family and friends, and like said above, the cell phone things and wire tapping etc. are just the tip of the iceberg. Did anyone else here watch the wire??? shows how easy it is, with the right tools…

    • Cee

      I haven’t seen The Wire.

      I’m aware that these Stasi tactics started with Echelon. Or sooner?

      We all know they were listening in on and watching people before 9-11. They can stop repeating that crap about not being aware of what was coming.

      They can watch and listen all they want. I’ll keep telling them to go after the real traitors.

      • TeakwoodKite

        The NSA does not use caller ID when they call. There are NO expectations of privacy anywhere on the planet, regardless of the electronic medium used. Elint has been used since the telegraph. What makes it any different now? Anyone remember when the FBI “sued” Netscape for wanting to use 128 bit encryption? They would not let Netscape use it until the key for the base algorithm was in the Gov’t hands….It is about the Genie being out of the bottle…and who is the one making the wish. They are productive and practical, that is if you don’t mind a missile getting a lock on your GPS location.
        PS This does not mean I don’t abhor the arguement of “What do I have to Hide?”

  • Shirin

    I don’t understand the objection to cell phones. I could not manage without one. In fact, I don’t have any other kind of phone right now.

    A cell phone is a huge convenience, and can be a life saver – literally.

    • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

      When I’m very busy and I’m getting lots of phone calls all the time — especially when I had a home business and the phone rang constantly + people were coming by all the time — it was quite wonderful to get in my car, away from any telephone, and get away from it all. And it was great to have the “excuse” that I was away from the phone and to be able to respond to calls when I chose to.

      It’s perhaps a personality thing. Some people may thrive on constant communication. I treasure my quiet time, uninterrupted time.

      And, with very few exceptions, I can’t recall a time that I really needed a cell phone. And those few times were mostly when I saw a dangerous driver that I wished I could report. I have a friend who feels the same way. She keeps a cell phone solely in her car for just that reason, and also in case she blows a tire or has an accident.

      • Shirin

        Well, Susan, the secret is to turn the thing off, or leave it at home (or pretend you did), and just don’t answer it. That’s what caller ID is for!

        It’s not so much about constant communication, it is about knowing that I have the option to be in contact if I want or need to.

        I have two cell phones, one I use in the U.S., and the other I take with me when I go overseas. As soon as I arrive in a country I buy a sim card, put it in the phone, and voila! I can call anyone in the world. I consider it not only a convenience, but a necessity for safety when I am traveling, especially if I take off somewhere alone, as I am fond of doing. It’s also very useful when trying to meet up with someone. It seriously reduces the chances that we will miss each other for any reason.

        I would not say I am addicted, but I find it a necessity these days.

        • CK

          If the battery is in your cell phone, then the GPS function can be turned on remotely.
          Likewise if you have On Star, that cell service cam be turned on remotely in your vehicle. Takes some of the fun out of going out knecking in the ole chevy — all those great lines have a much larger than anticipated audience.

        • Centrocitta

          I ONLY use the SIM card for my cell phone. They sell them everywhere. It’s much better to pay cash and be done with it.

      • http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

        Well Susan…everyone in our family has a cell, except for Jordan..they can’t have them in Iraq.
        We are real big in communications and expect..nay, demand every kid or family member keep in touch..It is a great comfort to know where everyone is and what they are doing on a pretty consistant basis..At anytime i can ask..hey what’s Dustin doing and somebody knows where he is and what’s up. that’s how our family and extended family rolls..grandparents, mom and dad, kids, aunts, uncles or cousins are always calling or being called..
        We communicate alot and I think it’s a great thing. I can understand where others don’t feel that way and need private time ( we all do )
        But the power of wireless brings our family together in this go go world.
        There have been a few times when my Blackberry has buzzed me when mrs. hoopster has said. ” I hope you are not going to answer that..”
        I’m smart enough to say..” oh, no..I was just going to turn it off.”
        ahhh..the power of the off button..

      • Centrocitta

        …..And those few times were mostly when I saw a dangerous driver that I wished I could report. I have a friend who feels the same way. She keeps a cell phone solely in her car for just that reason,…..

        In Europe, your friend would be ignored and told to get a life. I bet she would like to keep a Tazer in her car too. Amazing! Americans are all here complaining about being spied on but they don’t hesitate to report on their neighbors for everything and anything. Gee, did I really used to have a mentality like that? I certainly don’t miss it.

    • Centrocitta

      Changing the subject a bit to Cordless Phones. I recently bought a new Cordless. The version I have is configured for Italy only. I needed an instruction manual in English so I downloaded the USA manual from the company’s website. I learned that the US version allows five different ring- tones but the Italian phone only has one ring-tone which is standard and can’t be changed. I now know the reason for this. SECURITY. The homes in Europe are not spread out. You can easily hear your neighbors’ land-line phones ringing, especially during the summer (no air conditioning). If every neighbor has the same ring-tone, it’s impossible to know who is not at home and not answering his phone.

    • Centrocitta

      Agreed, Shirin. Cell phones are a wonderful convenience. It’s so easy to go to the airport and meet up instantly with your arrival because you both have a phone. I always hated being given so many business cards and having to file them. Much better to key the name and number of the new contact immediately into your phone list as it’s being given to you. Then while you are still together, you ring his/her phone one time and your number is instantly registered on their phone. Cool.

      • Shirin

        Yup! I really don’t know why I held out as long as I did before getting a cell phone. I have had one since the late ’90′s, and don’t use it a lot (I don’t like talking on the phone), and always have lots of minutes left over, but it is one of the most useful items I own.

        (I also would not want to be without an iPod. I use it mainly for podcasts, and it allows me to keep up with information while commuting, working out, doing chores around the house and garden – time that would otherwise be wasted in terms of information gathering. I also have a gadget in my car that will play the iPod over the car speakers via an FM signal – it isn’t perfect, but it is very useful. Oh yes – and I have also used it to learn some Urdu, and to accustom my ear to different Arabic dialects.)

  • Taters

    “The only way you’ll get my cell phone is to pry it from my cold, dead hands..”
    Ok, a slight variation on Heston’s speech to the NRA regarding Al Gore kicking down doors and taking citizens’ guns.

  • Kathleen

    I was banned over at Firedoglake by the moderator for what they considered bringing up the Israeli Palestinian conflict when the topics of Syria, Iran, Iraq or Lebanon would come up. Firedoglake would rather continue to avoid that this conflict is a thorn in the side of most of the countries in the middle east (easier to avoid and self censor otherwise they get hammered by trolls and rabid Israeli firsters). The moderator claimed that it was not what I was saying or linking (I often linked articles from the Iaea, Flynt Leverett, and the UN) but my tone. So hypocritical when Jane Hamsher who continually uses locker room talk (I think it is appropriate and funny) and Christin Hardin Smith and other bloggers at the site rip representatives to shreds. But as they have said they are trying to build a cozy little progressive community and I firmly believe they are attempting to build ad fan club. If you question the bloggers at this site they hammer you for questioning not so different than a certain administration that we all seem to be questioning.

    I have challenged Firedoglake and other blog sites that I believe have blog clogs when it comes to writing about the Israeli Palestinian conflict and its influence on the whole of the middle east and the disproportionate amount of influence that Aipac has on US foreign policy. Firedoglake bloggers basically self censor on these two issues.

    Now the other day Jane Hamsher stepped out and used AIpac in one of the titles of her blogs (whoa Jane don’t go to far out on that limb, you brave woman you) Choke. Basically all Jane did was have Aipac in her title she did not pass any judgement state any facts or hammer them. Both she and Christy Hardin Smith are chicken shits when it comes to these two topics. They play it safe and are not any different when it comes to the Mainstream media when it comes to these issues. Come on the I/P conflict is the 10,ooo lb gorilla and Firedoglake and many other so called “progressive” blogs will not tackle the issue in a challenging way the way they tackle other critical issues. Why is this?

    • Cee

      I guess they never mentioned Mearsheimer & Walt ey?

      Considering that even Syria is sending someone to Annapolis for the conference this week, Israel and her supporters better start dealing with reality.

      The people of the world are fed up with the criminal behavior of this spoiled child.

      Unprovoked bombing of Syria! No consequences!

      Now this?

      Facts regarding Israel’s Fuel and Electricity Cuts to the Gaza Strip

      November 23, 2007

      Regarding the fuel cuts:

      On Sunday, October 28, Israel’s military ordered the private fuel company, Dor Alon, to provide 15% – 20% less fuel than the quantity ordered for Gaza residents. Israel does not permit fuel to enter Gaza via the sea, the airspace, or the border with Egypt.
      Essential services, including purifying and pumping drinking water, treating sewage, operating garbage collection trucks and ambulances, and operating the generators that power hospitals and other public buildings depend on fuel and the electricity generated by fuel.

      Updated information indicates that since fuel supplies have been cut, every day, on a rotating basis, 50,000 residents are not receiving clean water to their homes because there is not enough fuel to operate the generators that help power Gaza’s water wells.

      Regarding the electricity cuts:

      Gaza residents purchase approximately 63% of their electricity from Israel, primarily through tax moneys collected by Israel on behalf of the Palestinian Authority. An additional 28% is produced locally, and 9% comes from Egypt.
      Israel’s claim that it can cut electricity without harming hospitals and other vital services is inconsistent with the facts on the ground. In Gaza, main lines of electricity serve hospitals, water wells, pumping stations, treatment plants, schools, pharmacies, and local clinics, as well as ordinary homes and buildings, without differentiation.

      • Cee

        I’m catching up on news from last week and just read this. Even Bahrain is fed up.

        At a stormy session held last Tuesday, Bahrain’s parliament called upon the Gulf Arab emirate’s government to cease all contact with Israel and to refrain from attending the upcoming Middle East peace conference in Annapolis, Maryland, which it labeled “a waste of time”.

        “Most of the parliament is in favor of cutting off any contact with Israel,” Abd-Ali Muhammad Hassan, a member of Bahrain’s Chamber of Deputies, told The Jerusalem Post by phone from Manama. “We are not going to recognize Israel and have any dealings with them until the rights of the Palestinians are achieved,” he said.

        At least one of Hassan’s parliamentary colleagues, Jalal Fairooz, already appears to be implementing the decision. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1195546714819&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

      • Centrocitta

        Since I wouldn’t DARE allow an Israeli stamp to be put in either of my passports, I’m looking forward to visiting Syria with my Italian passport. I hear it has great weather, shopping, food and people!

    • mudcat

      Kathleen,

      What is it about your tone? Is it anti-semitic? Not having read your creeds, I don’t know. But I do know that it takes a hell of a lot to get kicked off of FDL.

      Are you willing to accept criticism?

      You strike me as a concern troll, or a one issue, obsession troll, but, again, I haven’t read your comments. I could be wrong. It just takes a lot to get kicked off of FDL.

      The jst of what you’re saying, here, is that progressive blogs suck. And that is simply untrue.

      Question: why would you come here, to No Quarter, of all places, to complain about FDL? What has this to do with anything?

      • http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

        Basically all Jane did was have Aipac in her title she did not pass any judgement state any facts or hammer them. Both she and Christy Hardin Smith are chicken shits when it comes to these two topics

        mmmm..Kathleen..I’m going to have to stick up for Jane and Christy..
        There one word i would never use to describe thier impectable character is chickenshit.
        I’m not sure how professionally you posted your views on the I/P issues..But since you have been banned I’m guessing you came off a little strong for that community. I find it hard to believe you think FDL is just a fan club..The are a large close-knit community of bloggers and have earned the right to blog about anything they please..
        I read FDL alot but don’t post there often except sometimes to say hi and make my semi-humorous observations about life, politics or sports.
        Now kathleen.. The I/P conflict is a complex long term issue in the middle east and has been tried to be solved by numerous presidents ( Carter, Clinton to name a few ) and countless diplomats for years.. If you have any opinions of what can been done to solve these longstanding issues I would love reading about them..
        i’m sure we all would.
        Because your postings here have been sensible and passionate in tone and quality my suggestion would be to return to FDL and send a note to the moderator in question and apologize about coming off a little too strong about an issue and ask to be reinstated.. But that’s your choice.

        • Kathleen

          I have been reading about and involved with the I/P issue for 25 years. My comments were the very same at FDL as they are here and I often posted articles from Flynt Leverett, Noam Cholmsky, the If Americans only knew website, Amy Goodmans interviews with Norman Finklestein, Seymour Hersh , letters from the Iaea websited from nations in the middle east asking demanding that Israel sign the Non proliferation treaty etc.

          http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

          You are so right on the point that Jane and Christy do amazing writing about critical issues and it is their blog. But when you witness the same shut down, the very same self censorship on the I/P issue and the I-lobby that has taken place in the mainstream the last 60 years and is absolutely taking place in the so called “progressive” blogosphere. Then what are we just supposed to shut up? I won’t. There is a blog clog at Firedoglake when it comes to these issues.

          Back to on topic issues. Mudcat post at FDL

        • Kathleen

          Suggesstions.

          Israel stop building and expanding illegal settlements

          Share the water rights
          Israel give back the West Bank and the Golan Heights
          Israel sign the Non-proliferation treaty and open up their doors to IAEA inspections
          Share Jerusalem
          Build the wall on the internationally recognived borders.
          Financially compensate Palestinians for their loss of lands and homes.
          Just a few suggesstions to start with

          • http://www.food4humanity.org hoosierhoops

            Well just let me respond to your suggestions..
            ( I’m not jewish or palestinian..so i don’t have a dog in this fight )

            Every one of your suggestions involve the jews doing something.. not one thing the other side should do..is that diplomatic give and tale or compromise? nothing about recognition of the jewish state..no treaty? Nothing about peace..
            No wonder nothing gets done over there..each side wants it all and gives nothing…
            This is why it’s a waste of time discussing this topic on blogs.. The principle parties are delutional in thier demands..and the 2 minutes it took me to respond is 2 minutes I’ll never get back..waste of time..
            well keep it up kathlene..but I’m done with this topic..
            Regards
            The hoopster

            • Kathleen

              If this situation in the middle east is not resolved to some degree that is fair and balanced there will never be Peace in the middle east.

              Yes my suggesstions were for Israel they dominate, they need to bend, compromise and get back to those 67 borders. The Palestinians will continue to bomb and blow themselves up until Israel gets back to the Internationally recognized borders. then hammer the Palestinians if they contiue to send rockets into Israel. Right now they are sending them into the occupied territories.

              And yes Israel needs to compromise more they are the aggressors.

              • Shirin

                Kathleen, I have never understood why the Palestinians need to compromise with Israel. Is the victim of theft required to compromise with the theif? Are the children of a murder victim required to compromise with the murderers? I don’t get it.

                • G Hazeltine
                  • Shirin

                    Gide’on Levy is a great person!

                    Amira Hass is another one. She lived for seven years with Palestinians in Gaza during the first Intifada, and since then she has lived in Ram Allah. Her point of view was that if she was supposed to write about the occupation and events in the Occupied Palestinian Territories she had a responsibility as a journalist to live in the place she wrote about.

            • Shirin

              Hoopster, with respect, I don’t think you really have a clear understanding of the situation or the issues involved.

              • http://www.food4humanity.org hoosierhoops

                shirin: You are right, I really don’t have a clear understanding..But i think there will need to be some kind of comprise if diplomacy is to work…

                Other than that..I’ll just back away on this subject and not make a fool of myself or my subject knowledge..

      • Kathleen

        Oh yeah mudcat from FDL, are you following me?. It’s the tone excuse when ever you bring up the I/P issue over at FDL. Odd somehow when Jane, Christy and other bloggers rip legislators to shreds over at FDL at times using language one hears out of Rove and in locker rooms and then I bring up the I/P issue when it links into the situation with Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Saudia Arabia etc, and I never use junk yard terms (as Jane does all of the time) and I get hammered. The contradictions are absurd. I can link the thread I was bumped for challenging the moderator.

        http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/10/24/we-the-
        people/

        A few days before I had been blogging during Jena 6 trial and Christy had given me permission to do so since she said she and other bloggers did not have the time (I believe the Jena 6 hearing was obviously not a priority for FDL) and either was the middle east hearing that Condi Rice was speaking at, so I was blogging that hearing and then got jumped on.

        I accept being bumped, andI have had many folks read the thread the day I was bumped and have let them know that I had been persistent at bringing the I/P issue up when it tied into the topic. People go off topic at that site all of the time including the bloggers so please don’t hand me that selective off topic police horseshit. That blog has a very serious blog clog when it comes to the I/P issue and the I-Lobby. I will not back down and will hammer that blog and any other so called progressive blog when it comes to their self censorship.

        Spare me mudcat the tone thing is not going to work this type of excuse has been used for the last60 years when the I/P issue comes up in a challenging way. This is not new, it is a well used an effective tool used by the I-Lobby and used at FDL.

        Jane, Christy and other FDLers are scared
        shitless to really write about the Israeli Palestinian conflict or the Israeli lobby and how it influences all of our nations relationships in the middle east.
        Oh they will allow comments but terrified and intimidated to write about it. Jane mentioned Aipac in one of her titles the other day( wow Jane do not go out on that limb too far) but has never written about it. Scarecrow actually metioned the Golan Heights and the West Bank in their article but will anyone be brave enough to discuss these issues at FDL. Hell no, because folks get hammered if they do and thats a fact.

        • Shirin

          Kathleen, for some very, very high level and very knowledgeable discussion of Israel-Palestine and other Middle Eastern issues including some very well qualified people, may I recommend that you check out http://justworldnews.com/. The owner of this blog, and many of the people who post comments are very well educated on the issues there. And yes, we do have a regular bunch of hasbaristas of various qualities who show up there every time the subject turns to Israel/Palestine to repeat their tired, stale, easily-dismantled nonsense, but one can either ignore them (as I do most of the time), or have a little fun tearing down their propaganda house of cards.

    • Shirin

      Kathleen, I cannot understand for the life of me how a website – or a person – can consider itself progressive and not acknowledge Israel’s criminal behaviour. It openly flouts international law and its government and military thumb their noses at the principles of decent human behaviour, and it has done so for most of its existence under the protection of the United States.

  • Kathleen

    Really appreciate Marcy Wheeler’s blog/website “The Next Hurrah”

    http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2007/11/does-this-sound.html?cid=91127322#comment-91127322

    Joe and Valerie Plame Wilson have stated that Marcy or “EmptyWheel” knows as much or more about the Libby trial and Plame case as they do. She is always worth the read.

  • Kathleen

    I often think about our grandparents or great grandparents who when they left their home countries they basically left folks behind. Oh you could write letters, or if you had the dough go visit or pay for them to come here. But for many of our ancestors they left family’s and their history somewhat behind.

    There are huge advantages with cell phones ..staying close (techno close) with friends and family members, emergencies , business. Am committed to not having these positive advantages rule or control ones life is the challenge. Turn the suckers off so you can have moments, hours of uninterrupted time.

  • Kathleen

    Interesting reads.

    http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004766.php

    this is a must watch on Iraqi soldiers committing suicide. In 2005 12o a week. Heaven help us.

    Wonder what the stats on how many Iraqi people are committing suicide a week due to this unnecessary war.

    Watch this
    http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/15/cbs-news-investigates-shocking-rate-of-veteran-suicides/

    • Centrocitta

      Kathleen, here in Europe, before the start of Bush’s illegal war, we saw news reports of ordinary Iraqis in the street commenting that their greatest concerns were that even ONE Israeli would enter and occupy their country, given the Israeli track record. Granted, you didn’t see these kinds of reports in the USA. They don’t even let you see al-Jazeera in English, for God’s sake.

      • Kathleen

        I read that all of the MSMers blocked Al Jazeera being aired in the states. Keep Americans in the bubble just the way they like it. So they can keep their pedals to the metal, get to the mall buy stuff made in China and listen to canned Holiday music. Whoa is me. Spiritual Bankruptcy abounds

        • Centrocitta

          Yes, I really enjoy al-Jazeera in English. In addtion to politics and war, it presents some very interesting information.

          Recently, I learned that Argentina has a population of around 35 Million. For every 360 people, there is one psychiatrist/psychologist or counselor/therapist. Reason? Germans fleeing the Nazis after WWII.

          This means that a large portion of the population, like in the USA, is being kept on Prozak, Ritalin, tranquilizers and other psychiatric meds in order for them not to realize or not to care about whats happening. The Argentine currency, by the way, has ALREADY collapsed.

          • Fred C. Dobbs

            They can take away my CYMBALTA when they pry ot from my cold, dead fingers…

            • http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

              good one fred….707

  • Kathleen

    Some interesting reads.
    November 26, 2007
    Giuliani’s Culture of Corruption
    Why did an Israeli billionaire hand $250,000 to Giuliani protégé Bernie Kerik?
    by Justin Raimondo

    http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11958

    this is a great listen
    http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/11/20/gareth-porter-18/

    Noam Cholmsky discussing Iran
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18772.htm

  • Kathleen

    This is really worth the watch. Noam Cholmsky talking about the Iaea, Iran, and Israel and the U.S. ratcheting up the inflammatory rhetoric about Iran as Iaea’s El Baradei says yet again that there is no hard evidence to back up the cakewalk zealots unsubstantiated claims about Iran.

    Really worth it.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18772.htm

    One Letter from middle east nations having to do with the danger that Israel poses in the middle east

    http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:OjV3Bz3OlPEJ:www.iaea.org/About/Policy/GC/GC42/GC42Documents/English/gc42-8_en.pdf+Israel+danger+to+middle+east+peace+Iaea&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

  • Kathleen
  • Kathleen

    Monday

    One would think the so called “progressive” blogosphere would be filled with articles about the upcoming middle east conference. Nothing at Crooks and liars, Firedoglake.

    Really surprised nothing on the Diane Rehm show. I depended on Diane before the invasion she had guest after guest on questioning the validity of the intelligence and the wisdom of such a pre-emptive invasion.

    Today she is discussing oil…but no middle east conference discussion for the week. Odd

    http://wamu.org/programs/dr/

    • Shirin

      Well, Kathleen, I don’t know the reason the “progressive” blogosphere is not discussing it unless they undrestand it as it certainly is – a non-event run by the inept, unprepared, and desperate, and bringing together the unready, unwilling, and unable. (Hamas, the party the Palestinians chose in a free and fair election to lead and represent them is not invited because the Bush regime and the Israelis did not choose them. Instead, the Palestinians’ “representatives” will be the corrupt and brutal puppets and quislings chosen by the Israelis and the Bush regime – so much for bringing democracy to the Middle East.)

      The Annapolis charade doesn’t have a chance in hell of accomplishing anything. This is Condi’s show – her last gasp at having something she hopes she can call a “legacy”.

      Not surprisingly, the Israeli press has it about right:

      “They discovered that her intellectual world was narrow, and that her management style was characterized by authoritarianism and arrogance.”

      “Rice showed herself in all her intellectual frailty and character weakness…She had no cohesive worldview about international relations or the modes of action required by the state…

      “Lacking an intellectual compass, Rice drifted with the prevailing winds and became, effectively, the minister of information for the war in Iraq.”

      “In time, Rice realized that Iraq was a bleeding quagmire that would not cover her in glory. She desperately needed an achievement, and so turned to the never-ending Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

      “This is the real story of Annapolis: a story of fierce personal emotions, disappointment, affront and desperation.

      “But what action did Rice set in motion, and to what end? The action is not based on an American assessment that the conflict is ripe for resolution and/or that there are leaders in the region capable of deciding. In Annapolis we will see no more than an extravagant media gimmick; an orchestrated performance whose Middle Eastern actors are taking part in it halfheartedly because ‘the president expects it.’

      “Rice, the proprietor, is pushing, because less than a year remains until the elections…”

      And that’s what it’s really all about.

      Israel will not be ready to make peace with its neighbors (or declare that it has borders) until either it is satisfied that it has acquired all the territory it wants, or it is forced by the international community, or simple exhaustion to comply with international law. And neither of those events is likely to happen any time soon.

  • Kathleen

    Richard Perle has no shame or conscience. How in the hell does he have the nerve to use the word “decency”

    http://thinkprogress.org/2007/11/23/perle-iraq-wrong/

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