“We Do Not Torture,” No Way, No How, No Ma’am

Alberto Gonzales, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and John Yoo–who wrote the torture memos and advocated the policy, should be prosecuted for War Crimes under the UN Charter–to which the US is a signatory–for torture and rendition.

ok you KNOW truthfully what’s REALLY BEEN TORTURE???

Having to hear about our misuse of TORTURE for the last friggen 6+yrs between that and the new TORTURE series with Jack BAUER we are nose DEEP in complaints about the topic yet all it seems is being done is a huge spin off

spinning in circles with one foot nailed to the floor of proof

yes I’m being sarcastic to a point but jeZzz!

I happen to be more worried about all the millions of innocent people that had to HURRY, PACK AND FLEE to never come back and all those killed while fleeing and all those killed who had no MEANS TO FLEE ESPECIALLY!!!

I will NOT FORGET ABOUT THEM!! SHAME ON THOSE THAT CAN SO CONVENIENTLY SWEEP THEM UNDER THE DIRT FLOOR OF THE MIDDLE EAST

screw those mental midgets at gitmo that actually had a LOT TO DO with the rest of their country being in such a mess

I am sorry you hate us
YOU will have to find a way to get over it
IF PUMA has to sit and stew while our country bumbles another one, I’m afraid there’s not much left we can do for you. At this point. I am sorry. Start bending your backs to pray for Bambi maybe that will help.

pffffffffffft not I
neva

oh and ps.

you COULD have had HILLARY as PRESIDENT!!

That might have helped.
Now she’s just BAmbi’s whipping Gal
who knows what will develop under that circumstance

(personally I think the blossom will be a turd cuz as my MOM says you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear)

bambi’s sure got the ears

heh

OT, but half of my screen turns black shortly after I start reading NQ: is there anything I should do to have this annoiance not happen? Thanks

That is ridiculous. I have no sympathy to anyone
remotely related to terriorism. You should not
judge someone else until you have walked in their
shoes. I am glad they did whatever they had to do
to keep us safe and if it means torturing someone
who would harm us so be it. None of us knows what
it was like to be in their positions after 9-11.
If they had not used every means possible to keep
us safe then people like you would be saying they
did not do enough.We do not need bleeding hearts
for terrorists or terrorist sympahtizers .

good morning Susan

the above rant was written for people that will probably never be on this website so not only was it a waste of blog space but a waste of my typing right?

sigh well Susan thanks for allowing me the space to vent!

NO Quarter truly rocks!

In a perfect world, the priorities and actions would be obvious to all. But we live in an imperfect world. When you get experience in some field where masses of people are concerned (like war, economics, public health care), you soon realize that it is impossible to be perfect for every individual, and darn hard to do even a halfway good job for the masses. Time and resources are limited in this life.
I think you’re trying to say, why are we putting so much energy into examining the admittedly despicable act of torturing a few people who very likely would have enjoyed torturing or killing us, when there is so much other pain in the world, affecting many more people than the torturees.
The argument that “now we are safer” is unprovable and a matter of opinion, but so is the argument that it was unnecessary for this administration to do it. We can agree that it might be a bad idea in the future and make plans accordingly, but we shouldn’t waste time arguing the unprovable past.
I guess the main point of being concerned about the torture of military prisoners is the fear that people will become desensitized and the use of forcible coercion will increase. This is a very reasonable fear. Maybe the argument should go back to basic principles of life vs. morals, and moral education. Such as, what is your moral obligation to someone trying to kill you and destroy your country?

A Canadian Lady With Guts !!!

This was written by a Canadian woman, but oh how it also applies to the U.S.A , U.K. and Australia.

Here is a woman who should run for Prime Minister!

Written by a housewife in New Brunswick , to her local newspaper. This is one ticked off lady.

‘Are we fighting a war on terror or aren’t we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 and have continually threatened to do so since?

Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from the nation’s capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn’t they?

And I’m supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and are fighting against in a brutal insurgency.

I’ll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I’ll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan .

I’ll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg’s head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I’ll care when the cowardly so-called ‘insurgents’ in Afghanistan come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I’ll care when the mindless zealots who blows themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I’ll care when the Canadian media stops pretending that their freedom of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting at home to hear about them when something happens.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a CANADIAN soldier roughing up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information, know this:

I don’t care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:

I don’t care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed ‘special’ food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being ‘mishandled,’ you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts:

I don’t care.

And oh, by the way, I’ve noticed that sometimes it’s spelled ‘Koran’ and other times ‘Quran.’ Well, Jimmy Crack Corn you guessed it,

I don’t care!!!

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail friends Sooner or later, it’ll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behaviour!

If you don’t agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don’t complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country!

And may I add:

‘Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Soldiers don’t have that problem.’

I have another quote that I would like to add, AND…….I hope you forward all this.

One last thought for the day:

Only five defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ

2. The Canadian Soldier.

3. The British Soldier.

4. The US Soldier, and

5. The Australian Soldier

One died for your soul, the other 4 for your freedom.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET ALL OF THEM.

AMEN !

I don’t personally know of anyone trying to kill either me or my country

for those that do

I’d suggest finding out WHY FIRST (if there are a LOT OF THEM)

if you can’t find a bridge and they’re mentally rabid and they have NO REASON to hate you??? that’s an easy one

but the fact is MOST of them have a reason and most of their reasons are worth hearing and debating but not worth dying over (jmo)

I disagree with you, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

I think it is a myth torture makes us safer, a myth sold to us, by Cheney, and his crew, pure PR.

The issue, at the very least needs full exposure.

Perhaps their appraoch toward terrorism was wrong, for the LONG TERM, detrimental to American interests.

(Israel, btw, is losing, I think anyone with half a brain can see where it will end up, in 10 years, their country unable to stand.

Cheney, as a neocon, based his military model in part on theirs, if it failed them, and it has, it will fail us, too. So, we like Israel, have far more to fear from the stupid people in our government than we do from any terrorist — and enabling stupid people like Dick Cheney doesn’t help.)

It’s far far far more complex than “torture kept us safe,” (which it didn’t).

Ultimately we can’t afford to let stupid people lead, or we will end up as that Russian info warfare man auggested in the other thread.

Cheney isn’t smart — good riddance.

BTW, if the respected military men and women of the Pentagon came out, after Cheney leaves, publicly disagreeing with his methods, who would listen to as the authority?

When we resort to torture we are just as bad as the terrorists. There is never a justification for torture. People who are being tortured will tell you anything they think you want to hear to get you to stop. Truth will not enter into it. Shoot them if you must, but no torture.

This is swell, unfortunately, it doesn’t solve the problem.

And neither does Dick Cheney.

I’m not sure fear disguised as hatred and comtempt provides a winning formula.

And I get the feeling those who embrace torture see it as a surefire methods of keeping terrorism at bay, it’s not, in fact, it provides a sort of viral capsule by which one can destroy a country, internally, allowing terrorism to flourish, all the while thinking things are OK.

I guess the main point of being concerned about the torture of military prisoners is the fear that people will become desensitized and the use of forcible coercion will increase. This is a very reasonable fear

Actually, no.

The greater fear is the overall chaos it can cause within a culture, a military, coupled with a degrradation of democracy. One only has to read Col Lang’s essay on the IDF to know where the US military is headed under Cheney, it’s not good. The shock and awe is in no way sustainable.–, and then what? Another Iraq? And where did that get us, our economy, say?

So, it’s a lot more serious.

I’ve been kind of looking at some of the propganda methods used lately, and its’ really weak, really lame, really indicative of people who can’t think, really, among the dumbest I’ve ever seen, and I mean DUMB.

Some of those people are in charge of this war, even in the Pentagon, if they dont understand how this affects US, using and adopting models which are inheriently flawed, how can we win this war, survive as a nation?

Torture is wrong and illegal under the Geneva Conventions. Torture is wrong and illegal under the USA’s own military rules. Torture has been proven not to work. There are other proven techniques to break prisoners.

The USA under the Bush administration knowingly violated the Geneva Conventions. Of all the things I disagreed with during the Bush administration this was numbers 1, 2, and 3.

America lost its soul when we allowed torture. We are better than that. I want our reputation restored. I will not be satisfied until all who participated in this horrendous practice are brought to justice some where, some how..

For those who condone torture I will just say that with or without torture the Bid Laden’s of the world will always be out to get us. And like with 9/11, some day they will again be successful. And we must take every LEGAL means necessary to prevent this and stop it.

When we stoop to using the same tactics as the terrorists we lose the moral high ground, we do not live up to our nation’s highest standards, we gain nothing in useful intelligence, and we lower ourselves to the standards of terrorists.

The United States of America should be better than that. We must set the highest standard for the rest of the civilized world.

And one of the reasons I could not vote for Obama is I believed that he would waffle on this issue.

Linda: Your statements only show your ignorance about this subject.

American and Canadian citizens–who have never been proven to have any terrorist connections whatsoever–have been tortured by this administration. I would never accept or condone torture in any form or fashion. As a military veteran, I know all too well that US torture gives license for other countries to torture our own soldiers. Torture also yields false leads, because people who are tortured will say anything. Experts in interrogation say torture doesn’t work. Torture is a violation of international law, set up after the Nuremburg Tribunals of WWII, in order to prevent what the NAZIS did during that war. Anyone who condones torture is no different from the fascists and stalinists who perpetrated the worst torture and genocide the world has ever seen. If you condone torture, you must have supported Saddam Hussein’s torture chambers. You must have applauded Pinochet’s torture chambers for innocent Chileans. I condemn those leaders. If you condone torture; I condemn you.

http://www.maherarar.ca/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/greenwald1.html

Mine does the same.

Well, all it proves is that Canada’s as full as allegedly-Christian, right-wing, provincial-minded (no pun intended) nutjobs as the US.
This is a woman who needs to experience FIRST-HAND what torture is like before she off-handedly (or, perhaps, off-headedly) spews a lot of crap that she doesn’t understand. (The Koran/Quran difference, for instance, proves her lack of knowledge. IF she had a functioning brain cell, she’d be able to find out why the word is spelled in different manners. It’s not like it’s “rocket science” or “brain surgery”.)
As to her final comments about Jesus, well, that shows me exactly where her mindset is, and all I have to say is, she certainly doesn’t emulate her “savior” with the type of crap she’s spewing. Jesus (according to the Bible that I’ve read–not sure what her Bible says) WILLINGLY gave up his life (that’s known as martyrdom–a feature of many religious devotees, by the way) for a purpose and endured great suffering without condemning others. Jesus would NOT support torture, under any circumstances. Don’t forget that Man condemned one of His own for fighting a Roman solider brought to arrest Jesus (Jesus even HEALED the soldier). Perhaps this “woman” (if she really exists and isn’t the product of some right-wing internet nutjob’s imagination) should re-read Matthew 5 (often known as “The Sermon on the Mount”, it’s got some interesting insight into how to deal with others, even “evil” ones).

Um, this is basically what I was saying, that desensitization to a basic principle has a spreading effect. You can call it chaos–some would say our system is chaotic and a centralized authoritarian one is not, though.
As a psychologist, it seems so old hat to waterboard someone. Look how well psyops did in making Hillary “divisive” and O “hopeful.” And that was in mass media. Surely there are ways to worm the info out of someone that are not physical–but then don’t we get into the argument that coercing someone against their intent is the real abuse?
I still think it comes back to moral relativism in the face of a threat, and that in the real world, people who feel threatened will threaten back, by whatever means.

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush. It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.

WOW, this clearly shows Rachel sucks at tv. Her repetitiveness is stressful to hear and her face making is very offputting. Rachel clearly needs to stick with Free Tibet activism and radio.

That was torture.

And if Rachel wanted to be honest about foreseeing the future conduct of a Obama administration, she should have admitted his actions in this regard. You know, campaigned for being “against the injustices of the Patriot Act”, but voted for the reauthorization of the pariot act and then voted to give immunity for illegal wire tapping, after claiming he would filibuster to block immunity.

How about dealing with the real facts Rachel?

I am beginning to feel like a librarian, but here goes… If you read “The Dark Side” by Jane Mayer, you will learn what Article 4 or the Geneva Convention refers to. In other words, it is illegal to bring innocent civilians into the path of war and to target civilians. That is why the situation in Gaza is all wrong. And Dick Cheney is using the Israeli model of warfare. Its wrong, too. Torture is against the Geneva Conventions. Its the law. Simply put. If a country wages war and breaks international law which it is a signtature too, then consequences are a logical conclusion. Thank god that Hillary Clinton is going to be involved from now on in the decisions made by this next administration.

“…ambiguous indications…we need clarity…so, yes but no? …inconclusive tea leaves…among all these mixed messages….”

LOL!

To Rachel: You supported, voted and shilled for Obama, now you must live with the consequences. Did you actually believe He had “clarity” on any issue before? Did He suddenly become “ambiguous” to you? Or have you been lying to yourself and us about Him all along?

Since the founding of this country torture has NOT been part of our strategy for dealing with enemies. Indeed, we have thrived as a nation without it. Because of this sadistic policy, we have lost our moral high ground and standing as a nation, thanks to GWB. Torture has no place in this country — not then (after 911), not now, not ever!

Unfortunately, on torture, FISA, and Habeas Corpus, etc. Obama is turning out to be the sequel to GWB.

“…by using and adopting models which are inherintly flawed, how can we win this war, survive as a nation?”

Exactly!

“…by using and adopting models which are inherently flawed, how can we win this war, survive as a nation?”

Exactly!

[inherently]

A member of my family has given his life for this country in another war — and I don’t think torture as a national policy and legacy elevates his sacrifice in any way.

Look at it this way, torture as a policy has chipped away at our moral integrity as a nation. (Not to mention that it endangers our captives or POWs!) That’s what torture does — it affects negatively the torturer by rotting his soul. A torturer will lose the moral battle every time.

If that were the case every member of Congress that were told of the procedure should be charged along with them. Holder left a very large hole in his testimony regarding torture and that may have been the reason why. You cannot go after Bush and the rest of the gang without grabbing up a few Dems. along with them.

I’ve seen some advocacy on these pages for prosecution of Americans (Bush, Cheney, et. al.) for torture. Oddly, though, what I cannot recall seeing is any advocacy for prosecution of anyone on the “other side” (i.e., members of opposing terrorist organizations or their sponsors) for torture. Is it the position of those who advocate prosecution of people serving in the Bush administration for torture that all those who torture should be prosecuted, or just the Bush people?

In the eyes of some, it isn’t really hypocritical for terrorists to torture captives. Some terrorists actually believe in the use of torture on almost a quasi-religious basis. If a non-state terrorist organization is not a signatory to the Geneval Convention, and its members believe in the use of torture as a moral instrument of God’s wrath, on what basis would they be prosecuted?

Just asking a theoretical question, not advocating any particular position myself. Actually, the question is based on a recent conversation with an Iranian who said that in some quarters in his native country, torture is considered to be a moral neccesity by certain co-religionists in the case of infidels who are believed to be in opposition to Islam.

Bullshit. When we torture, we lose the moral high ground as well as put our troops in harm’s way, dim-bulb. Ratified treaties have the force of the Constitution.

If you are so scared lily-livered that you fear for your life over this, presnt yourself to the nearest Constabulary for a nice little cell where you can be safe from all the bogeymen out there to get YOU.

As for me, I only fear morons like you who will sacrifice our freedom and our moral standards for a “feeling” of safety. You are a coward.

Retired: I advocate the indictment of anyone who advocates torture. That being said, the cleaning of one’s street begins on the side lived on. McCain was right–the issue of torture is about US. We are not barbarians even if our adversaries are. We do ourselves no favor by stooping to the level of our enemies by taking on their very attributes we despise.

Is that succint enough for you?

I agree with you, Ferd.

We have to draw the line somewhere. Most people can clearly see that breaking on the wheel, the iron maiden, and other torture implements are hideous. Waterboarding is a little less obviously torture, but torture nonetheless. Mankind has got to rise above these practices, and we must lead the way. No more.

I don’t need to walk in someone’s shoes to know that torture is wrong and should never be allowed. We didn’t accept ‘we were just following orders’ when we were putting Nazis in prison or executing Japanese soldiers who did it to our personnel. The fact that you’re willing to compromise on this issue only illustrates that YOU need to walk a mile in someone’s shoes.