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Political Wimps and Cowards Whining About Guantanamo Terrorists

We defeated Nazi Germany, which at one point controlled all of Europe and major swaths of the Soviet Union and North Africa. We held members of that master race in prison camps scattered throughout the United States. We obliterated Japan, which had raped and pillaged most of Asia and the islands of the Pacific. And we pushed Soviet communism to a dramatic collapse. We stood up against armies that numbered in the millions. Massive air power with nuclear bombs and fully armed intercontinental ballistic missiles. But when it comes to thinking rationally about a handful–245 to be precise–of real and alleged radical Islamic terrorists being locked up in the United States we soil ourselves.

We have imprisoned and executed some of the world’s most heinous mass murderers. We have lincarcerated the heads of major narcotics cartels and drug gangs. Hell, we have Hells’ Angels and skinheads in our prisons and don’t lose a nights sleep. Ye,t raise the possibility that we might put 150 suspected terrorists in prisons on U.S. soil and many of our political leaders–Republicans in particular–act like panicked passengers on the Titanic. But it is not just Republicans. Remember when Kansans had a pair of balls and some backbone? Not anymore. The Jayhawks are now a bunch of chickenhawks:

Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius (D) added her voice yesterday to a predictable chorus of Kansas politicians campaigning to prohibit any detainees from Guantanamo ending up at the U.S. Disciplinary Barracks at Ft. Leavenworth when President-elect Obama closes the prison. Concerns about future acts terrorism are understandable, if misguided, in the debate surrounding the closure of Guantanamo. Yet, it is not enough to say Guantanamo is a problem and it must be closed and then refuse to be part of the solution.

Home-state politicians screaming “not-in-my-back-yard” (NIMBY) will certainly become a major feature of the debate surrounding Guantanamo in the weeks and months to come. Sen. Sam Brownback (R) is driving this effort which has led to legislation being introduced at the local, state, and national level to keep Guantanamo detainees out of Kansas. It is disappointing that Gov. Sebelius has jumped on the Brownback NIMBY bandwagon, not least because the motivation to protect American lives should encourage our leaders to explore every available option to close Guantanamo quickly and responsibly.

This kind of fearmongering and handwringing is pathetic and unworthy of any American. These terrorists are not ten feet tall Terminators that we cannot stop. A handful–less than thirty assholes in Iraq and Pakistan–sawed off the heads of Danny Pearl and others and many of our leaders and fellow citizens now insist that the potential of that kind of threat is too terrible and too dangerous to bring into America. Well, if that reaction is not a sign of cowardice I don’t know what is. Watching someone being decapitated is horrible, but regardless of the mechanism of death, dead is dead. It is absurd and laughable to insist that if we dare put one of those people in a U.S. prison that we cannot control them or protect ourselves.

Excuse me. BUT THAT IS PURE HORSESHIT!! I am angry about this (bet you could not tell). To pretend that terrorism is the greatest, most severe threat we have ever faced displays a level of ignorance of history and genuine tyrants and murderers that defies my ability to categorize it. I can understand a 12 year old kid being out of touch with history, but what is the excuse for folks like Sibelius and Brownback. Even Rudy Giuliani has lost his cojones.

There was a time when Rudy fearlessly stood up to the Italian mob. The mob engaged in terrorism too. Italian and American mobsters murdered innocent people and blew up judges. Back then Rudy Giuliani demanded they be brought to trial, brought to the United States, and put away for good. Now we confront a relatively small number of radical religious nuts. They are great at using their religious beliefs to threaten us. They talk a lot of shit and post it on the internet. Yet, despite their sincere desire to harm us they cannot and have not attacked us at will where ever and when ever they want. Our countermeasures have been pretty good and the Bin Laden crowd has not received much love in the muslim world. Yet in the face of these threats to harm us we want to fold our judicial system, surrender our Constitution, crawl into a fetal position and start sucking our thumbs? De we seriously believe that we as a people are incapable of dealing with this horrific, terrible threat within our territory just because the terrorists don’t fight fair and use nasty methods? Makes you ashamed to call yourself an American.

I hope that President Obama does not cave into this kind to silly ass fear mongering. His signing of the Executive Order to close Guantanmo is a step in the right direction. Are there any other politicians with the courage and intelligence to back him up on this?

  • zan256

    I don’t see what the big deal is with just putting em in a maximum security prison like Supermax.

    The main reason I support closing GITMO is that it’s been a public relations nightmare with the rest of the world. I won’t lose any sleep keeping them in a prison as tight as GITMO on US soil…

  • mountainaires

    We already have terrorists in prison. We put them on trial in New York and put them in prison, where they’ve been held for a decade. Why doesn’t the press just ask about that? The “war on terror” is dead; let’s just have the “rule of law” for a change.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_bombing

    And, let’s strongly “encourage” our allies to abide by the rule of law as well. That would be “change we can believe in.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/23/gaza-children-killed-israel

  • BernieO

    Hey Kansas!! You guys are a bunch of weenies. Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman has been imprisoned here in North Carolina since his conviction as mastermind of the World Trade Center bombing. He is close to Bin Laden and I can assure you Al Quaeda has known where he is this whole time. Glenn Greenwald lists other Muslim terrorists who have been in prison here in the US with no problem.
    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

    BTW, Glen Greenwald, David Sirota at Salon, Juan Williams of Fox and NPR, and Big Tent Democrat at TalkLeft are all liberals who are willing to call Obama out when they feel he deserves it. I may not always agree, but I trust them to make an honest effort to judge on principle and fact, not personality and bias. They deserve to be read. I would appreciate info about others like them. (Larry, of course, is a great example of objectivity too.)

  • athy

    Good article Larry-Thanks.
    My question here is…

    Are these people who support the “NIMBY” (not in my back yard) position aware of the prison we have in Afghanistan?

    Perhaps…and this is PURE speculation on my part-

    perhaps they (NIMBY supporters) wish to have the Guantanamo detainees sent there instead?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4332499/Afghanistans-Guantanamo-poses-new-prison-problem-for-Barack-Obama.html

    Afghanistan’s ‘Guantanamo’ poses new prison problem for Barack Obama

    By Ben Farmer in Kabul, Philip Sherwell and Dean Nelson
    Last Updated: 7:46AM GMT 25 Jan 2009

    As Guantanamo Bay prepares to close, President Barack Obama will have to deal with a new problem with suspected terrorist detainees, this time at Bagram in Afghanistan.

    EXCERPTS:

    As President Barack Obama declared with a fanfare his intention to close the controversial Guantanamo Bay terrorist detention camp last week, he made no mention of another growing US-run prison – with more than twice as many inmates and an even murkier legal status.
    More than 600 detainees are held at the US Bagram Theatre Internment Facility – known by campaigners as “the other Guantanamo”. Not only are there no plans to close it, but it is in the process of being expanded to hold 1,100 illegal enemy combatants; prisoners who cannot see lawyers, have no trials and never see any evidence there may be against them.
    According to human rights lawyers the prison also holds scores of innocent people, many seized after tip-offs from feuding tribal rivals. The alleged offences are never tested in court.
    The prison has been accused of torturing detainees and two men were allegedly beaten to death there in 2002. The US Army does not let outsiders in to view conditions inside.
    While Mr Obama struggles to work out what to do with Guantanamo’s 245 remaining prisoners, critics claim Bagram and other detention centres around Afghanistan are still legal black holes.
    “If they close Guantanamo and they expand the one in Bagram, it’s the same – there will be no difference,” said Lal Gul, chairman of the Afghanistan Human Rights Organisation.

    Or maybe the NIMBY supporters would like to send the Guantanamo Bay detainees to California?

    Look at what has been happening in CA…

    http://www.laprogressive.com/2009/01/11/prison-expansion-pushed-forward-while-massive-cuts-to-education-proposed/

    Prison Expansion Pushed Forward While Massive Cuts to Education Proposed
    by Mary Sutton posted on Sunday, 11 January 2009
    EXCERPT

    While the Governor and legislature propose massive cuts to education and 2,000 public works projects are on hold, a bill to propel a $12 billion prison construction project was sent to Governor Schwarzeneggar. This bill is designed to fix problems with AB900, the largest prison construction plan in history.
    “The Governor and our legislature were supposed to be reducing California’s budget deficit. Instead, the legislature passed ABX1-10 — clean up language necessary to implement 2007’s massive prison construction plan,” says Debbie Reyes of the California Prison Moratorium Project, members of the statewide coalition, Californians United for a Responsible Budget (CURB).
    AB900 was passed in the early hours of the morning on April 26, 2007 without voter approval and with no public hearings. “As we cancel or delay voter approved projects to retrofit schools, the legislature is moving forward with $12 billion worth of new prison and jail beds — without voter approval and without money to build or operate those new beds,” says Geri Silva of CURB member Families to Amend California’s Three
    Strikes.

  • Mandelay

    I’d like to see them off the soil of the 50 states. Keep Gitmo open and keep ‘em there. And if we must stop waterboarding, let’s get an ironclad agreement with all nations that stoning women to death and beheading people are just not nice things to do, and they should stop immediately. And let’s include public or private lashings, chopping off of hands and feet, and other not so nice things either. After all, we should be able to pressure other governments into treating their suspects/prisoners/criminals according to our laws. What the heck… forget all that dumb stuff I just said. Bring them all to Manhattan to the top of a skyscraper and lock them in a room. Then set the room on fire and give them the option of burning to death or, breaking the windows with the furniture and jumping to their deaths. Yeah … I like that one a lot. And let’s hear it for the very critical European nations with their enormous populations of Muslim immigrant workers …. the same European nations who don’t want these Gitmo prisoners either.

  • Joy

    Larry, I usually do not disagree with you but this time, you are wrong,wrong. You seem to forget the idiot that is pretending to be President, who is very much Marxist. He has stated they must be tried by our civil laws and not under war crime statues. This will release them into our population, as their countries have refused them re-entry. So do you wish for them to gain their martyr title by blowing themselves and true American citizens up? Again, you are wrong on this!!!!

  • apishapa

    I’m from Colorado. Our governor, Bill Ritter, isn’t scared to have a bunch of people who haven’t even been convicted of anything here. Republican legislators from Colorado on the other hand are scared shitless. Ritter figures Supermax holds some really bad people already. Who have been convicted of heinous crimes including terrorism. It can hold bunch of people of dubious criminal aptitude. Republicans are accusing him of not protecting the frightened populace.

  • stodghie

    we also have some home grown terrorists who are imprisoned on us soil. i think that the bush administration didn’t want them in the justice system here and didn’t want to listen to criticism from their base.

  • Peggy Sue

    I don’t get this at all. I thought most reasonable people agreed that Gitmo is a huge blackeye for the US. And for Dems, I thought it was an absolute given. But the hang-wringing makes us all look like fools. We cannot continue to give simply lipservice to “our values and sense of justice,” and then wonder why we’ve lost respect in the eyes of the world. And the world is watching. As are US citizens. I’m personally aghast.

    The information on the CA situation is really disturbing–the idea that we can find money for prison contruction but not update our education programs. Sounds upside down to me!

    Maybe we better start asking ourselves: what are those sacrosanct values again? We seem to have misplaced them.

  • stodghie

    peggy sue, the prison system in texsas is one of the largest in the world. i am sure ca passes us by though.

  • truthorconsequences

    Maybe Timothy McVeigh and Nickles put the fear of God–or maybe that is the fear of Alah- in the good citizens of Kansas. LOL!! You bet, Nazi Germany was on the brink of introducing jet fighter planes into the war and even into heavy water and atomic weaponery but we got em before they could develope those weapons and use them. Now here we have Bin Laden who hides and lives in caves and walks about the desert mountains with a staff like Moses. But what the hell, part of the citizenery of Kansas still travel into town on weekends via horse and buggy. Kansas is afraid of anything or anyone that has progressed past kerosene lamps and out-houses. Even the Tennessee Valley Act (TVA) was the devils work and people from the bordering state Oklahoma are foriegnors and cigarrettes are still not mentioned in polite society. Doesn’t the great O have relatives there? LOL!!!!

  • JustMe

    Yes surprising a laying on of hands cannot make these people act and think differently….
    Is the great power already lost?

    Joking aside what do these folk in Kansas want to do with the terrorists just send them back to rejoin their camps so next time they can make a big hit or lock them in a supermax?

    It is worry how some get into power.. (the saying if they had a brain they would be dangerous comes to mind)

  • OxyCon

    Put all the terrorists in Kansas. That’ll be yet another Obama huckster (Gov. Sebelius) receiving instant Karma. (still waiting on McCaskill and Brazilla)
    Elections have consequences!

  • oowawa

    Well, someone broached the possibility of refitting Alcatraz for the Gitmo bunch. It’s fun to think about it: Mill Valley Yuppies gazing at Jihadist Summer Camp as they drive to work over the Golden Gate Bridge. I wonder if their brows would furrow with concern?

  • yttik

    I had a laugh at Boehner today. “If liberals believe they ought to go, maybe we ought to open Alcatraz,” Boehner, R-Ohio, told NBC “Meet the Press.” Being reminded that Alcatraz is a national park, Boehner responded, “It’s very secure.”

    Dems are kind of trapped in their own hypocrisy here. They’ve either got to stand up for what they believe or shut up about it.

    IMO, signing the symbolic gesture of closing Gitmo was more about politcal preening and pandering. There’s no solution attached to it! So far, in a twisted way, we’ve done more harm then good, now the detainees have had their trials canceled and they’re about to become homeless.

    You can’t just make a declaration without having some idea about how you’re going to carry it out.

  • lark

    Well I see a big problem in bringing Gitmo prisoners into the U.S. and with closing Gitmo. These prisoner’s status would change and they would have to be charged with criminal offenses. That would be a problem since their crimes would not be covered by U.S. criminal law. To me, if brought into the U.S. they would need to be kept in military installations but not in any kind of state or federal penitentiary. They need to maintain their enemy combatant status and be tried in a military criminal court as enemy combatants. These people are enemies of the U.S. belonging to private terrorist organizations that operate outside international law.

    I don’t want to see them in any kind of state or federal prison facility and much less mingling with the prisoner population of the country. These people are religious fanatics bent on training others to hate the U.S. and to kill their people. That includes even prisoners that would not accept their indoctrination messages. To me they represent a danger to any U.S. citizen, including inmates.

  • stodghie

    i’ll bet nancy gets some grief about that!

  • getfitnow

    I agree with yttik. I found it disturbing that there was such fanfare and yet no plan–even if those plans change. It just struck me as a political gesture. He couldn’t anwser questions and nither could his press secretary. What was the original “120 days” about and now 1 year? Gitmo has been open long enough to know what the legal ramifications are. BO should have studied this before making the campaign promise. I don’t trust him.

  • Diana L. C.

    Good grief–it didn’t even cross my mind that this would become a problem. I think separating those 150 people and spreading them throughout the prison system is a smart idea. The only thing I would worry about is that the guards would have an extra problem because I can’t imagine the “normal” maximum security prisoner will like having them in their “club house,” so to speak.

  • Neverland

    Well, I can understand them. I’m european and now that there’s talk of taking the prisoners here I’m very mad about it. This is AMERICA’S problem to deal with, we have already thousands of refugees thanks to the US bombing radical countries close to our borders and let me tell you, some of these people do view us with a great contempt attacking our women/gay/animal rights for example.

    I think it’s naive to think that the 250 prisoners are innocent little angles who were jailed just because Bush hates muslims. I definitely do not want them in my back yard! Send them to Illinois I say.

  • lark

    BO should have studied this before making the campaign promise

    Consequences of stealing political platforms from those who prepared for their campaigns and lying about it.

  • stodghie

    neverland, when a pebble hits water the waves spread out far don’t they? we will be living with the results of this administration for a long time.

  • Neverland

    Oh really? What did Mr. Hopey Changey think through?

    I was talking about Guantamo with everyone when Obama rushed to say he’s gonna close the place down and no one knew what should be done with them. Not even the hardcore opposers of Guantamo. Are they gonna put them in other jails which is just hypocritical since the only ‘change’ is the location or set them free? Unfortunately they are talking about the latter right now and no one wants them. Go figure.

    The only country that really wants their terrorists back is China. There’s 17 chinese islamists in Guantamo but obviously the US refuses to send them back in fear of persecution. Awww, poor little terrorist are afraid of persecution. Breaks my heart.

  • lark

    Once they enter any country, including the U.S. they need to be given rights under the Constitution of that country. That means charging them with offenses under the laws of the country. But they are ‘enemy combatants with no legal international status since they are private worriers.

    If we return them to their country of origin then they could be tried there for their offenses. But since their countries would not find them particularly offensive for going to Afghanistan to fight a war against the U.S., they would be released. Then they would be free to kill Americans as they please.

  • Strawberrybitch

    Actually Larry, I’m guessing Obama is trying to avoid a political ticking time bomb. As we saw a few weeks ago, a republican military judge admitted to the fact that one of the terrorists had indeed been tortured. So anything that this guy said can not be used in a court of law. Even if he really is guilty. Christ, he might have to be let go. Or Obama will try and avoid the whole mess by just putting all of them in jail forever without actually being convicted of anything, throwing out our basic core principles about being innocent until proven guilty, fair trials…the lot. I really don’t think Obama thought this whole presidency thing through. The republicans just scraped this whole mess off on the Oval office floor and Obama blindly trod right in it. No matter what he decides, this will get ugly.

  • wodiej

    send ‘em out to Sherrif Joe Arpaio in Arizona.

  • Chris Martin

    I’m too young to remember the constant fear of the cold war, but from what I gather we were close to the brink of world-wide annihilation from a massive nuclear (“its pronounce Nu-ya-lar”) war. I find that to be a scarier prospect than overzealous nuts.

    Incidentally, by cowering in fear at the mere thought of the terr-ah-rists we are probably empowering them, giving them undue credibility when we should be undermining their credibility. When did believing in the enduring power and moral goodness of the country become the avenue of “the far-left”?

  • athy

    lark,

    You said:

    “Well I see a big problem in bringing Gitmo prisoners into the U.S. and with closing Gitmo. These prisoner’s status would change and they would have to be charged with criminal offenses. That would be a problem since their crimes would not be covered by U.S. criminal law”

    I agree. Look at what other problems will be incurred by such a move:

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/25/politics/washingtonpost/main4752093.shtml?tag=topStory;topStoryHeadline

    Guantanamo Case Files In Disarray

    Washington Post: Obama Admin. Finds Files On Detainees Non-Existent Or “Scattered” Across Agencies

    WASHINGTON, Jan. 25, 2009

    EXCERPT

    President Obama’s plans to expeditiously determine the fates of about 245 terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and quickly close the military prison there were set back last week when incoming legal and national security officials – barred until the inauguration from examining classified material on the detainees – discovered that there were no comprehensive case files on many of them.

    Instead, they found that information on individual prisoners is “scattered throughout the executive branch,” a senior administration official said. The executive order Obama signed Thursday orders the prison closed within one year, and a Cabinet-level panel named to review each case separately will have to spend its initial weeks and perhaps months scouring the corners of the federal government in search of relevant material.

    Several former Bush administration officials agreed that the files are incomplete and that no single government entity was charged with pulling together all the facts and the range of options for each prisoner. They said that the CIA and other intelligence agencies were reluctant to share information, and that the Bush administration’s focus on detention and interrogation made preparation of viable prosecutions a far lower priority

  • wodiej

    all good points…lets not forget they would then be able to file appeals etc. which the US taxpayer would be footing the bill for.

  • Neverland

    Well the news going around here are saying that all the prisoners will be trialed in the US and some of them (60 is the current number) sent to Europe after they’ve been cleared. Our duty would be providing them with accomodation etc., not trial them.

    And pardon me, I have zero trust in this current leftist, Obama administration. (Or the uber liberal EU for that matter.) I’m sick and tired of pampering people who detest us.

  • truthorconsequences

    Yeah, really. The best way forward on this is certainly not torture. Just chop off their heads and stick them up thier butts and be done with it.

  • rickrickrick

    Wait a damn minute,,,,Wasn’t Sebelius one of Obama’s supporters. How can this be that the followers are starting to see the emperor has no clothes! Signing an order to close Gitmo in one year without a clear plan of disposition was stupid. Watching all those trolls standing behind Obama as he blindly signed orders that he had to have his counsel explain made me glad I jumed the Democrat ship months back. Rather than make symbolic getures Obama should make sense.

  • oowawa

    Well, the idea of a nuclear bomb in a suitcase worries me as much as the duck-and-cover drills and backyard bomb shelters worried me as a child back in the ’50′s.

    Now we know beyond any doubt that there are lots of people in this world who would consider it a joyful mission from God to set off such a bomb in the middle of one of our largest cities. I don’t “cower in fear,” but I give the threat a good deal of credibility. We have to take them seriously.

    Indeed, with our lax port security, I cannot discount the possibility that such a bomb could already be on our soil.

  • lark

    Go figure

    Each state has laws and as far as I know of my country, and I don’t know much, if you are incarcerated in a state prison you need to be charged with an offense or convicted of one. If and when they are moved to a state prison, the prisoners are not charged within the prescribed amount of time allotted by the law then they would be incurring in a violation of the Constitution of that state and by fact simply rendering their Constitution a sham.

    Once these prisoners enter the U.S. then the Constitution of the states and the country needs to be upheld.

    One little two little three Constitutional violations,
    four little five little six Constitutional violations,
    seven little eight little nine Constitutional violations, … what’s the Constitution for?

  • stodghie

    let’s see, lark has written they instantly get rights upon entering the country. let’s say a judge let’s one of the really serious offenders go and down the road, something goes boom. we will have a real problem. i wonder if the obama administration has considered this. they should.

  • Diana L. C.

    Well, I am still with Larry on this one. Come on, everyone. Get rid of Gitmo and figure something out. We spend so much time worrying about this and worrying about that. It prevents us from doing anything. Get in there, roll up the sleeves and figure this out.

    Wimps and Cowards: that’s what we are. The idea that I, through my taxes, have committed torture still makes me very angry. We can figure out how to end this whole stain on our reputation and betrayal of our ideals.

  • Elizabeth

    One hardened, decorated ex-marine that’s not afraid of a few could-be terrorists…

    Murtha’s Gitmo Invite Could Be Stimulus for Western Pennsylvania
    Pennsylvania Rep. John Murtha says he’d be willing to house Guantanamo Bay detainees in his district.

    FOXNews.com
    Thursday, January 22, 2009

    Rep. John Murtha’s invitation to house Guantanamo Bay detainees in his district has some local officials seeing dollar signs — even though Murtha’s comment was met with disbelief by others.

    The Pennsylvania Democrat, chairman of the defense subcommittee for appropriations, is renowned for his ability to steer earmarked dollars to his district.

    And after Murtha told FOX News that he’d be willing to take in terrorist suspects, some saw it as a job-creation opportunity. His district’s maximum-security prisons are full, according to the state Department of Corrections, so a new prison would likely be needed to house any of the 245 detainees now in Cuba.

  • stodghie

    this is snark! i say this upfront. maybe send them to hawaii. i mean it is in the middle of the pacific and all. that is something to think about for maybe 5 minutes.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Larry:

    You are spot on with this one. Gitmo is a lose-lose for the US. Put whichever of the detainees are real terrorists in a maximum-security prison, release the others to their countries of origin, and close Gitmo.

  • oowawa

    Good idea, stoghie. Just one lei from a sweet hula girl will make those nasty bozos forget all about Jihad.

  • Strawberrybitch

    Yeah, but without a fair trial who are the real terrorists? I mean, let’s think about this, 500 have already been released…that means most of those rounded up were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That bounty placed on suspected Al Qaida members was a great way for warring tribes to get rid of political rivals and turn a quick buck. Me thinks Gitmo was handled just as badly as everything else under the Bush administration.

  • SAINTIXE56

    Didn’t Brotain lock her own irish homegrown terrorists ;does not Spain lock her own Basque ?
    and in Colombia; dont they lock up their own also
    We are not the sole country on earth facing terrorism, and if we dig or simply stop gazinf at our own navel we can see there are numerous countries facing nasty terrorists and…Godness me MANAGING.
    Even the French have togh judges and manage without making a fuss. Try them, put them in jail, be it Supermax and be done with it.
    Afterall there are jails for dangerous minded criminals, cant we see that those AlQaida guys are no different than Jeff Dahmer or Ted Bundy.
    As Larry says we managed to beat the real baddies in 45 without losing our soul and the Nazis goons were baddies enough and for a bunch of religious fools we are losing it?
    OK it proves that no country is immune to deviant minds, ok we have proven that the evil of Fascism can happen anywhere
    Now, can we resume our Constitution. Thanks Larry.

  • lark

    The truth is that these prisoners are an embarrassment for the U.S. and a dose of the hard reality that our efforts on Iraq and Afghanistan are not being well remunerated. In that sense the war against terrorism is being lost.

    Iraq and Afghanistan are the countries that should be claiming these prisoners and should be eager to try them in their courts. Iraqis and Afghanis are the ones that are wimps and cowards, not us. They are happy to be free from dictatorship but not man enough to believe in freedom and liberty and the rule of law. They are unable to live in liberty and to create laws and prison systems to preserve their liberty and freedom.

    What’s happening is that Iraq and Afghanistan are failing us and are not willing to have the courage of the conviction in preserving their own country free and democratic.

  • Ferd Berfle

    stodghie,

    I agree with your sentiments but one of our distinct problems is that we don’t know who is dangerous and who isn’t. And if they weren’t dangerous when we captured them, they could be so now after long captivity. They need to be detained until trial, tried, and if convicted, imprisoned. If they are not guilty, then they should be returned to their country of origin.

    It seems to me that the previous Administration did nothing more than do something expedient to make it appear they were doing something of substance. Sealing our borders and tightening requirements for entry into our ports would have done far more for our security than imprisoning a group of people, many of whom potentially had no ties to terrorism. We could have even set up some sort of detention camp in Afghanistan or Iraq–some place not directly under the control of the US government.

    Something could go boom, whether we try them or release them, since our borders and ports are so porous and I do hope this administration is considering this, as well.

  • Ferd Berfle

    They should be detained until trial, tried, and if convicted, imprisoned. If they are not guilty, then they should be released to their countries of origin. I don’t see any other way around this one. You’re right-Bush left a real mess to deal with.

  • Strawberrybitch

    lark, many of those captured in Iraq weren’t Iraqis…and even in Afghanistan…for a good break down on the insurgency see PBSs Frontline The Insurgency. I think you can still see it for free online. OR!!! go to http://www.mickware.com. and watch some of his reports. Think of Iraq and Afghanistan as PLDC for terrorists. If I remember correctly many are form Yemen and other smaller terrorist states. *Cough* Saudi Arabia* Cough*

  • Animal Control

    I’ve not finished reading the post but after the first paragraph I needed to sound a resounding BRAVO how much more rational can anyone get. Larry you are a breath of fresh air.

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    It does speak to a lack of courage, doesn’t it?

    Big talk about bombing this, or bombing that, but when it comes to acutally having to deal with an enemy who can harm, coming face to face with ones mortality, even remotely, meow.

    The people held at GITMO (and I would think the ones in Afghanistan, too,) are by and large innocent.

    Yet funny how they’re so scared, isn’t it?

    I mean, we’re all scared, but we all deal with it , conquering our fears, creating solutions.

    Some just seem to whine, maybe it’s empowerment for the cowardly.

    And I think certain neocons are terrified of the truth, when and if Americans hear of the innocent kept locked up by orders of Cheney.

  • lark

    that means most of those rounded up were just in the wrong place at the wrong time

    While being in the wrong place and the wrong time is always something to worry about you need to give credit to our troops and our war efforts in disrupting our enemy’s strategies and advancing our cause for peace and liberty in Afghanistan. We are not about lifting simple innocent people and incarcerating them just like we are not about killing innocent people inside any Afghan village. They also need to be brave enough to fight against Al Quaeda and the Taliban and flee from places where the Taliban have their gatherings. We are in a war and the Taliban are our sworn enemies. Innocent Afghanis should stay way far from Taliban worriers and Al Quaeda operatives.

  • Strawberrybitch

    But if they were tortured, their testimonies will be thrown out which could lead to them being freed. And it could prove once and for all that Bush ordered them to be tortured and then Obama would be faced with charging Bush with war crimes…the left and international community will demand it. The right will claim it’s a witchhunt or payback for Clinton, or wag the dog, or not moving forward to fix the real problems facing this country….did I miss anything?

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    Dems are kind of trapped in their own hypocrisy here. They’ve either got to stand up for what they believe or shut up about it.

    ———–

    You understand though this is coming from the Pentagon, too?

    Gitmo closing: Obama, as far as I have read, faces no real military opposition in regard to this matter except by those who lost Iraq, and Afgahnistan.

    Does that tell us something?

  • http://! stodgie

    it is a mess, ferd. i feel for those wrongly imprisoned. it must be hell for them.

    something will go boom in my view either here or at a base, consulate, etc. there so many of them and the opportunities are there. obama will find that the problems bush and clinton had to deal with are not so easy.

    i have said i’d never want to be president and i suspect obama may find he has such a sentiment in short order. whereas hillary knew full well and wanted to be there for us.

  • http://! stodgie

    smile, after a number of years at gitmo, there might a lot of truth to that idea.

  • http://www.anvp.wordpress.com soldier4hillary

    Yes, people want Gitmo closed. However, the problem is, that they have made plans for NOTHING! How in the world can anyone sign anything to close a facility without taking into consideration: Where to house them? Plus, and I know this for a fact. This is no better than a cluster f&ck because believe me, cutting the lights out and locking the doors is not even the battle.

    Do they have any idea what goes into closing a military installation? Not only that, but a installation used as a facility with terrorist and suspects? I mean I can understand everyone wants to jump on the *close gitmo* theme. But yes, we look stupid, because no one has a plan. Nor do they have any idea what to do with those whose countries will not let them back in. I give this entire scenario a big fat “F” for failure.

    It looks piss poor and there is piss poor planning. It is truly sad that people state we should raise our *moral standing* around the world. If I was a leader of another country, I would be thinking our governing officials look a hot mess and it will only get worse. The problem is, everyone is running around in circles telling President Obama what he wants to hear instead of what needs to happen and a plan on how to execute said plan.

    The people in Gitmo are not there for tossing rocks and playind tiddly winks. They are terrorists and no matter how anyone attempts to sugar coat it, does not change the facts. This is not a *campaign promise*. This is HUGE. To make a judgement call like this signing a executive order in releasing terrorists or suspects without even going to the leaders of other countries to discuss the ramifications is poor planning. Envoys should of been sent, leaders confered with, cases reviewed, locations considered, money to build said facilities with proper security. Lawyers to review cases, because I know we are not just going to let them go…

    God, can someone get off of the hype and actually come up with some form of idea on how to execute this? By closing Gitmo, we, as a country, will own any actions of any of the individuals who will be released. This could turn allies into enemies and god help us if we end up suffering another horrific attack. In the eleven years I have been in the military, I have never seen a military installation close in one year. Ever. You can’t just say: okay we are going to send soldiers to fort bragg or cambell, or drum…. your talking about equipment, the MTOE, hand receipts, property books etc etc. As well as the biggest issue, who is taking the bill? Whose money will transport all of these individuals to whatever locations? Covering lawyers, and trials? Better yet, will we be footing the bill?

    It involves SO MUCH more than just locking the door and closing the gate. That is why I am looking at this like what the F*ck is going on. Someone or someone”s are playing a very dangerous game, yes game. The President signed a executive order that I am attempting to grasp why no one has explained from either parties what actually happens or needs to happen. There aint no way in hell I would of given a time frame that is unrealistic. I am going to keep my other opinions to myself, but I believe with my last breath the Democratic party will not continue to have the majority for very long.

    I know some may think this is a exaggeration on my part, but it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out. We now own Gitmo from this day forward. As long as this administration continues to employ people that tell them what they want to hear, well, grab your paddle cause we all are about to go up shit creek. The truth of the matter is, no one knows who or what the case involves or the circumstances for those held there. I don’t know who is doing the advising but whoever they are they should be fired with a quickness. Like today type fired. I mean let go. Kicked to the curb. Terminated (job wise). Told to seek other employment. The whole nine yards.

    If I would of provided my 1SG or Commander with a SITREP or a convoy briefing on our route that had this many holes in it. They would of handed my ass back to me and wrote me up so fast I wouldn’t see it coming. Then I would be in trouble or replaced. People need to get out of there little bubble and step into the real world because the shit from the primaries and GE is not going to cut it.

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    Do you think he’s acting with, and on Pentagon recommendations?

    It would almost seem necessary, wouldn’t it?

  • Strawberrybitch

    Okay…um…nevermind lark. I’m guessing you haven’t heard exactly how bad Afghanistan has become. There’s a reason why Karsai was nicknamed the Mayor of Kabul. It’s the wild west out there. People can’t just keep away from the Taliban. The Taliban run everything out side of the major cities and even then they can’t be controlled. We never had enough troops in Afghanistan to prevent them from making a comeback. Iraq is still up in the air. Iran has it’s proxies in the Iraqi government and are only being quiet because they’re waiting us to finally leave. Think of it as getting their chess pieces in order. Trust me, I believe the only reason the ME isn’t a bigger mess right now is because of our men and women in uniform or guys like Larry.

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    it is a mess, ferd. i feel for those wrongly imprisoned. it must be hell for them.

    And you’re right.

    But if our governemt is willing to imprison them, what’s to stop them from imprisoning us, or our children, without trial, at some later date?

    Slippery slope, right?

    This is the reasoning behind our law, right, it keeps America, America, as opposed to Russia.

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    Prison construction is big, big money.

    I wonder if they’re thinking of green prisons, yet?

    See, a solution and an economic impetus right there!

    : )

  • http://! stodgie

    scary thought, bob! and i have considered that.

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    Even then, IMO, it isn’t the entire right that repudiates the Constitution, only that certain segment.

    I hope the politicians have the courage to do the right thing, here.

  • Jackarooty

    Good decision but where’s the plan?

  • truthtelling007

    Good one

    yeah, complete with the pink outfits?…some might think they’re back at Abu Ghraib….

  • http://helpmejoseph.typepad.com/puma_for_life/ Puma for Life

    Thanks for writing this. I agree 100%. It’s not like these guys are going to be walking around town; they’ll be in jail. It’s typical American self-centeredness. It’s ok to have them in someone elses country, just now ours. We have plenty of terrorists in our jails right now. I have an article on my blog about this today. I suggest vipassana.
    http://helpmejoseph.typepad.com/puma_for_life/

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    Last I read, the WAPO reported Britian, and other countries, –they had frozen out Bush, refusing assistance, as he was quitely trying to depopulate the prison, also.

    From the WAPO:

    European nations have begun intensive discussions both within and among their governments on whether to resettle detainees from the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as a significant overture to the incoming Obama administration, according to senior European officials and U.S. diplomats.

    The willingness to consider accepting prisoners who cannot be returned to their home countries, because of fears they may be tortured there, represents a major change in attitude on the part of European governments. Repeated requests from the Bush administration that European allies accept some Guantanamo Bay detainees received only refusals.

    The Bush administration “produced the problem,” Karsten Voigt, coordinator of German-American cooperation at the German Foreign Ministry, said in a telephone interview. “With Obama, the difference is that he tries to solve it.”

    At least half a dozen countries are considering resettlement, with only Germany and Portugal acknowledging it publicly thus far.

  • http://sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

    Obama is quite a sneaky fella. He
    1) signs the order to close it–getting mega credit
    2) doesn’t lift a finger in terms of a realistic plan
    3) has a whole year to think of an excuse/distraction/way to reverse this
    4) will later claim ‘I’m keeping Gitmo open for the safety of the American public’

    Win-win-win-win!

    This has not one thing to do with justice–it’s all politics. When have we ever seen Obama stand up for what is right??? Sebelius is freaking out a bit too early.

  • http://! stodgie

    yup and he could release some really toxic information about some of the detainees. that should do it.

  • candymarl

    The United States of America survived the threat from the Soviet Union and then from China (before they became our trading partner) of nuclear annihilation during 50 years of the cold war.

    If a few terrorists can make us piss our pants then we’re in more trouble than I thought.

    Should these people, those that are actual terrorists, be set free willy-nilly? No. Try them and then apply whatever penalty they are given. We did it with the Nazis and they killed millions.

    Even Bush and company admitted that many of the Gitmo folks were innocent and were sold to the American government for the money.

    We’ve survived the Revolutionary War, the Civil War WWI, and WWII. But no one knows what to do with these folks and we’re supposed to live in fear of what they may do? What happened to “We have nothing to fear but fear itself?”

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/24/dont-listen-to-rush/comment-page-2/# WildChild

    What happened to “We have nothing to fear but fear itself?”

    The conservative wave of hysteria.

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    2) doesn’t lift a finger in terms of a realistic plan
    3) has a whole year to think of an excuse/distraction/way to reverse this
    4) will later claim ‘I’m keeping Gitmo open for the safety of the American public’

    Win-win-win-win!

    This has not one thing to do with justice–it’s all politics. When have we ever seen Obama stand up for what is right??? Sebelius is freaking out a bit too early.
    ———

    I see your point, but this is also a military matter. If people like Gates, and Blair and Jones and Clinton play the poltiical game, like Bush did, with defense, their adminstration is toast.

    I think someone in power has to understand this, right?

    And perhaps people like Biden, and Clinton truly are appalled at Bush’s actions.

    So, Obama, like Bush and Cheney risks taking on his own military, and really, WTH is stupid enough to declare war on the Pentagon — other than Cheney and Bush?

    I mean, the one not represented by Jack Keane?

    By the people and for the people, they need to remember that once in a while.

  • Ferd Berfle

    But if our governemt is willing to imprison them, what’s to stop them from imprisoning us, or our children, without trial, at some later date?

    We should only keep them imprisoned if they are found to be guilty of being illegal combatants or war criminals. I see no other way to extract ourselves from this damn mess we’ve created.

    The only thing that stops us from being imprisoned on a whim is that “piece of paper” and “flawed document”. Well, that and a Supreme Court willing to stick their collective necks in the noose for the document. Personally, I would prefer we stick to the letter AND spirit of the Constitution.

  • basil

    Mandelay,

    We are in sync, again!

    I was just thinking about how meaningless the Gitmo issue is in comparison with the oppression of women throughout the world.

    What really infuriates me is that BHO is so friggin concerned about the detainess rights and says he deplores the violence yet he doesn’t say a word about the violence in this culture, among his rapper buddies, toward the female gender.

    Charity begins at home, as the saying goes, and until i see some concern about violence towards our women citizens I really couldn’t give a rats’ behind about those in Gitmo.

    I’m pretty sure most of them wouldn’t think twice about throwing acid in the faces of women in their countries (wherever that may be) who want an education.

    Plus, as someone who lived in NYC during the 1993 WTC bombings and watched them crash and burn 8 years later, masterminded by the same people who engineered the first failed attempt, my view is let them rot.

  • Ferd Berfle

    I agree, stodgie.

  • http://www.anvp.wordpress.com soldier4hillary

    You mean my plan or the Presidents? Cause seriously, I do have one.

  • Elizabeth

    http: //www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16227791/

    Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld also referred the 2001 detainees as “among the most dangerous, best-trained, vicious killers on the face of the earth.” Turns out, as of Jan 2006, close to 80% of the 360 who had been freed were released by their respective countries after transfer. Only a tiny fraction were even put on trial. Caught in the crosshairs of personal or tribal rivalries perhaps, but almost certainly not hardcore terrorists.

  • basil

    How about shipping them off to Arizona’s Sheriff Arpaio?

    hehehehe

  • Bob’s Hallmark

    Affecting the perception doesn’t work, they have yet to figure out why.

    As Larry said, no balls, what he might have forgot to add was they have no brains, either — hence this mess.

    And I don’t know, they passed the discrimination bill the other day, came through, and he lifted the family planning gag order, so he has done some of what he said he would, for the public.

    As compared to Bush.

  • basil

    Water spurt on keyboard!

    ROTF!

  • kgirl

    So you must be one of those parents who is cool with allowing sex offenders in your neighborhood?

  • basil

    Hey!

    i said that upthread!

    :grin:

    (but your probably beat me to it)

  • WildChild

    I think you mean known sex offenders, and yeah I don’t have a problem with that.

  • http://sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

    Easy stuff. Let’s see him do something difficult!

  • Chris Martin

    Incompetency is a pretty lame excuse. People who want Gitmo closed are not ignoring the logistics issues, but generally feel that competent administration could take care of this in much less than a year. If you know what you are doing, it shouldn’t be so daunting.

  • http://www.anvp.wordpress.com soldier4hillary

    Mine or the Presidents? One thing my mentor taught me when I became a NCO and finally took over my office is that when I walked into her office to brief her. I better be correct, on point, with details with facts. Because then my 1SG would turn around and brief the Commander and HE would in turn brief the BC & CSM during Command and Staff.

    And if the info proved incorrect when they did their briefing, well, lets just say the higher ups wouldn’t let them go home until completed. Which in turn meant my ass wasnt going home and depending on how important it is, written up with a letter of reprimand or fired. I seen it happen. They rely on information provided by others so when its not correct shit roles down hill.

    After a certain amount of time, you are able to rely on the information of others based on there track record. I do not belive, anyone in this administration has reached that level of trust. No, I did not vote for our current President, however, when shit stinks, I damn sure no how to point out where the smell is coming from. And this entire Gitmo situation reeks.

    When we begin to deal with issues that can affect this country and the people who reside in it, well, there is only one side to be on. Ours. I do not like what I see, read or hear in regards to this situation because I cannot believe not one advisor did enough research and background information to come up with a one year time line that anyone can see would be impossible.

    I have a very big problem with this. Whatever I may personally feel about this administration means absolutely nothing in the face of endangering or having the potential to endanger not only our lives, but other nations. Democrats and Republicans are at fault. In my opinion, and I am sorry if this upsets anyone, but Democrats are not strong on national security issues. While Republicans believes themselves to be strong, when in all actuality the last war some were in, I was just a baby.

    There is no way a administration can survive, and progress and elected officials govern if they are using outdated methods. We can have all the new and hip people in the world. But if they do not understand the war in which we fight, it will be hard.

    Right now, they are putting people in jeopardy to play politics while attempting to get there 2010 campaign message together. And that turns my stomach because it seems as if they will allow things to fail to just prove a point.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    I think the sweeties of MV would hold bake sales for them and make sure they all had a pashmina to stay warm. The weather on the SF Bay would not be so comfortable as that at Gitmo for a Middle Easterner.

  • Ferd Berfle

    We have to own up to what was done in our name, irrespective of whose ox gets gored.

  • apishapa

    Bill CLinton managed to hunt down and prosecute terrorists and he tried them in U.S. courts, got convistions and they are sitting in Supermax. TH idea that the U.S. justice system which has functioned just fine for a long time cannot deal with these prisoners is nonsense. People who do not want to follow the law try to find a way around it. Then are upset when the results don’t suit them.

    The fact that we are worried that we cannot convict many of these prisoners is because a whole bunch of them are not terrorists and were rounded up as part of the Big Show put on to show how tough we are. They were TORTURED and anything they said while being subjected to TORTURE should not be allowed in a court. That is how civilized nations behave. Now that we are at the point where we have to face up to the fact that out country violated international law and our own laws, all of a sudden we’re scared those we abused might get loose and be a little pissed off.

    I am not afraid of these men being in a prison in my state. Good lord, we’ve got some real badasses in Supermax, surely we can hang on to this bunch.

    I believe in our form of government and I believe in the ability of our system of laws to prosecute those who committed crimes. All of the laws we have on the books, no way in hell is whatever they are accused of doing not on them. If we don’t have any elgally obtained evidence against them after EIGHT YEARS, then maybe we were wrong to imprison them in the first place.

  • Texas Playwright

    With all the damn bailout money floating around, is there any left to close Gitmo, ship the detainees to maximum security prisons across America, put them on trial and either imprison them or deport them? Let’s see, about 250 detainees divided by 50 states equals 5 detainees per state. Sounds manageable to me.

  • Ferd Berfle

    For sure, had the neocon bunch been in charge during WWII, we would have declared war on Switzerland and Indonesia, after the attack on Pearl Harbor, declaring them to be part of the global war on sneak-attack sympathizers.

    The Greatest Generation has got to be wondering what hell they did wrong for this to occur.

  • WildChild

    We might need a shoe horn to get Rhode Islands five across the state line.

  • http://sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

    You are really working from an optimistic angle here :) I think Obama is “stupid enough to declare war on the Pentagon.” Yup. Politics trumps the military at least this time. I don’t know about the others, but remember it’s only Obama who ‘won’, so whatever he wants, he does.

    “By the people and for the people” is so honorable, so patriotic–so yesterday! You must think Obama has a shred of concern for people–I don’t. He’s demonstrated zero real concern before, so why would he change?

    I’m sorry to seem flip and simplistic, but this move is classic Obama and I call it like I see it!

  • Ferd Berfle

    Wildchild is correct. The terrorist threat is real but does not represent a valid reason to throw out the Constitution, imprison people for years on end, and spy on Americans. Sorry, but when that happens, our enemy wins.

  • http://www.anvp.wordpress.com soldier4hillary

    If you know what you are doing, it shouldn’t be so daunting.

    If they know what they are doing, then they are doing a good job hiding it. The logistics issue is my main point and issue because I know what the logistics are when it comes to military personel being reassigned to a different location. Personel wise that is, because that is the job that I do. When you begin to talk moving military personnel, and our Human Resource Command has not been notified. You have just entered a whole different world. The way our system works, if these guys do not have this in order, it has the potential to do extreme damage to our CAP cycle. And when I say extreme, I am not joking.

    Can it be done? Of course. In a year? Doubt it highly. The problem is, everyone views it at a different angle than I do because in there eyes, it’s all about other countries just taking them in and that’s that. If it were me, I would look suspiciously at anyone from the opposite side saying one year is doable. The first Republican that states “Yes we Can” close Gitmo in a year. I want whoever the Democrat they are saying it to know that the person in front of them knows something that you don’t and they are setting you up for failure. I could outline every single thing in explicit detail because I have worked personnel for seven years and I have a really good idea where they are going with this to use later on. If they want to close Gitmo they better put some people on ground as well as emmissaries to other countries to come up with a plan.

    That is why I do not get how this is playing out. You stated that it should not be daunting if they know what they are doing. From what I have seen and what I am hearing, it does not seem this way.

    Yes, there are some aspects that could make a portion of it easier as long as all of the paperwork is in order. But when it comes to military facilities, lets start talking contracts. And a word I hear alot, *wasteful spending*. Prior to this, there was nothing in place concrete or executive orders to close Gitmo UNTIL President Obama’s recent executive order.

    I am sure they recieve funding to keep the base open, ie buildings built, if they have civilian contractors working in various facilities etc etc. Who now, face joining the other millions who no longer have jobs. Many of our jobs we have MOS’s for are contracted out. These people sign contracts for X amount of time. Some for two to four years.

    Now, that the executive order has been signed, will we provide jobs at another military facility or do we face lawsuits. Also, what about construction of facilities already being built or in the process that have been paid? Do we reimburse and throw away the millions spent or do we give them a IOU? My point is this, one year, sounds great. However, someone should provide the answers because it sounds good on paper, but what about actually executing the task.

  • oowawa

    I’m frankly amazed that we are still operating the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base at all, much less the Detention Facility. Keeping these prisoners at the base makes a touchy international issue all the more difficult.

  • WildChild

    I can’t really point the finger at the the WWII generation for what has happened now.
    They faced their threats in reverse order. Economic disaster came first followed by external attack. It wasn’t difficult for them to sacrifice when they faced the later because the former had already hardened people to the sacrifices yet to come. 9-11 came at a time when we had an unholy alliance between greed and faith rolled up under a banner called conservative republican. The irony of that alliance is it’s the exact same alliance that caused a certain Nazarene to take a firm stand against the concept and get himself nailed to a cross.

    perhaps he was telling us something 2000 years ago.

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/25/political-wimps-and-cowards-whining-about-guantanamo-terrorists/#more-12310 marie

    Thank you for writing this. It’s been on my mind all weekend. Sometimes these politicians have less courage than a little girl.

    We have this problem because we chose to ignore our own rules of law and Bush just kicked the can up the path until he could beat it back to the faux ranch.

    Now we have these wimps (NIMBY’s) — were any of them among the chickenhawks of the Iraq War? There were several of them beating the war drum who didn’t ever face the battle of their youth in V.N. But oh so happy to send my son (or yours) to Iraq.

  • UKforDems

    That would be a problem since their crimes would not be covered by U.S. criminal law. To me, if brought into the U.S. they would need to be kept in military installations but not in any kind of state or federal penitentiary.

    That means that they have not committed a crime as far as the US is concerned. The only crime is that for $$$s someone has identified them as a terrorist ans after years of torture, where they may have disliked the US they definitely will hate it now.

  • Ferd Berfle

    I served within the Fulda Gap in what was the former West Germany from 1976 to 1979 in a little hamlet called Wildflecken. In case of war we were to fire our battery of Hawk Missiles and then put our heads between our legs…and so on.

    The Cold War was a nightmare because you mainly just sat and waited (and waited). The military was most interested in keeping everyone on their toes and did so by keeping us in a constant state of piss-off. For an eighteen year-old, there was nothing quite like the cold rush felt at the screaming of a Soviet Mig about 150 feet up directly over the tactical site, something which happened every year, right around Reforger (Return of Forces to Germany). Of course, we would do the same to the Warsaw Pact tactical sites, as well. I am still suprised either side survived the high-stakes games that were played.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    I don’t think we tried the Nazi’s here in the US…wasn’t that what Nuremberg was for? Some were condemned and executed, others imprisoned and I think a few were released. Israel did hunt down Eichmann and tried him in their court. They were roundly criticized for “kidnapping” him from South America.

    During WWII, there were German and Italian POW’s at Camp Chaffee (later Fort Chaffee) outside my hometown in Arkansas. It was a US Army camp so I don’t think the populace was afraid. I was too young to know but seems there would have been stories if they had been.
    At the end of the war, they were repatriated. One, a young Italian had been drafted into the Italian Army at 16; he had been trained as a painter of classic furniture. When he was returned to Italy, he painted portraits and eventually painted Arturo Toscannini who sponsored him to come to the US. In the 70′s Roberto Lupetti and I met in a meditation group in Carmel and he told me his story. He has passed on but he was a very successful painter as is his former wife, Lynn…who still has a gallery in Carmel.

    A different war, different time. I don’t think we can equate a Jihadist with defeated European POWs whose countries had to be rebuilt (with our help) when they returned home.

  • UKforDems

    Except the “nuclear dirty bomb” is a thing of science fiction

  • Ferd Berfle

    9-11 came at a time when we had an unholy alliance between greed and faith rolled up under a banner called conservative republican.

    We also have a large group of Americans who think that safety is more important than freedom and that not being able to shop everyday is too much of a sacrifice to be endured. We’ve become a nation of wimps. This group counts members of both the right and the left, unfortunately.

  • UKforDems

    Comment by Ferd Berfle | 2009-01-25 17:33:48

    We should only keep them imprisoned if they are found to be guilty of being illegal combatants

    What is an illegal combatant? Is it right for “Insurgents” to apply the same standards to Private Military Soldiers from Blackwater, CACI, etc?

  • Ferd Berfle

    Actually it isn’t. You don’t need criticality to make an area inhospitable to human life.

  • WildChild

    Thankfully there is a center, though I have to wonder how many handfuls of the populace are a part if it.

  • Ferd Berfle

    An unlawful combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who directly engages in armed conflict under the International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action.

    Your use of Blackwater is an irelevant argument as the subject is Gitmo. Do try to restrain your illogic and stay on topic.

  • UKforDems

    Yep 1) Compensation.
    They will be entitled to claim compensation for in many cases years of false imprisonment. If the Court finds torture that will have to be compensated for. Taxpayers will not like that as there many who – regardless of the outcome of the trial – will believe that they must have been “terrorist” to be in there.

  • Ferd Berfle

    I am thankful there is a center, too. I only wish there were more of us. We might disagree on a few things but those are normally ironed out.

  • http://www.anvp.wordpress.com soldier4hillary

    I am all for closing Gitmo. However, I also want to see how this operation will be executed. Therefore I could not actually state as of right now, that it should be closed based soley on just a *campaign promise* for reelection. Right now, it is understandable some of the opinions I am reading because we feel we are in a certain comfort zone. But are we there based on the policies on national security of the last administration or do you believe terrorists really dont exist?

    I have felt the effects on a personal and professional level of the last administration. But I don’t believe in hasty proclamations that as of right now, we have no idea how to execute. I know some like to think our Democratic majority was ran over by Bush. By forgetting that the same individuals are still here, within this new administration.

    It’s easy to pretend that they were clueless. You would have to be extremely naive to believe these elected officials did not know about the prisoners in Guantanamo. They knew. And even with a majority, they chose not to stand up and fight the battle to close it down. Now, for reelection purposes they have the chance to pass the blame on the Bush administration to keep there hands clean.

    They know, that whatever reason given by President Obama is good as gold. Gitmo will not be closed in a year is my opinion. And I am sure some big excuse will come up and a statement will be made that we need more time or something is not right. They already know that Gitmo will not be shut down in a year. These are experienced politicans. The purpose and intent was to show you that, “he tried” and kept a campaign promise. This is all about reelection, why else within 48hrs something major such as this could happen right after inauguration without one idea on how to make it happen?

    Does anyone believe other countries or there own countries will take them back and risk the people in there own countries just to ensure a politician will get elected in 2010 or 2012? It scares me badly that people actually want to bring them here and just take there word for it they were all tortured without any proof or even viewing what charges they have against them.

    Who verified the information that a majority of people there were tortured? Who led the investigation? Where is the documentation? Or are we willing to make a huge decision such as this based on word of mouth. I don’t have that much faith in blogs and the MSM to make such a big decision that could leave blood on someones hands. We know nothing about these individuals and I am sure if they were being held and tortured for nothing, there countries of origin would still be fighting for there release until this day.

    So many people state that Bush and company lied, the MSM gave him leeway to sell to the people, when it came to going into Iraq. Now we have more information years later and no the truth. Very few objected and you can look to his approval ratings during that time. We made hasty decisions to agree based on what was reported. And I have heard many times that the blood is on his hands because of those who died. All because we took there word for it, so they could push there own agenda. Which we now understand.

    So why in the world will we turn around and do the exact same thing? Anyone believing a handful of terrorists won’t have or could have a impact need to think about the past. We seen firsthand what they can do and it’s not fear mongoring, it’s fact. Before I ever go on record stating just *move em in* I want to know how they plan to go about doing it. If these people were all friendlies to our country and cause I am sure there respective countries would be screaming for there release.

  • athy

    Here is an interesting development…

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2009-01-24-iraq-abu_N.htm?csp=34

    Iraq to reopen notorious Abu Ghraib prison

    EXCERPT-from AP article published in USATODAY- follow link to read the rest.

    BAGHDAD (AP) — Iraq will reopen the notorious Abu Ghraib prison next month, but it’s getting a facelift and a new name, a senior justice official said.

    The heavily fortified compound of gray, stonewalled buildings and watchtowers has come to symbolize American abuse of some prisoners captured in Iraq after photos were released showing U.S. soldiers sexually humiliating inmates at the facility.

    The renovated facility will be called Baghdad’s Central Prison because the name Abu Ghraib has left a “bitter feeling inside Iraqis’ hearts,” deputy Justice Minister Busho Ibrahim said Saturday.

    Abu Ghraib, which was a torture center under Saddam Hussein, has been closed since 2006

    The prison will house 3,500 inmates when it reopens in mid-February and will have a capacity for about 15,000 by the end of this year, Ibrahim told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

    The announcement comes as the U.S. military has begun handing over about 15,000 detainees in its custody to the Iraqis under a new security agreement, prompting concern about Iraq’s beleaguered judicial system.

  • oowawa

    Interesting account of an obscure little bit of history. Thanks, Annie. And yes, I agree, Jihadists do not equate with defeated European POWs. As you say, “different war, different time.”

  • Ferd Berfle

    What is an illegal combatant? Is it right for “Insurgents” to apply the same standards to Private Military Soldiers from Blackwater, CACI, etc?

    Look up the phrase if you aren’t certain. I am not at your beck and call.

    Insurgents do not constitute a government and are not signatories to the Geneva Convention, so this is irrelevant. Blackwater and CACI are also irrelevant to the discussion as the topic is Gitmo.

    Do try to stay on topic, would you?

  • UKforDems

    Comment by SAINTIXE56 | 2009-01-25 16:33:42

    Didn’t Brotain lock her own irish homegrown terrorists ;does not Spain lock her own Basque ?
    and in Colombia; dont they lock up their own also
    We are not the sole country on earth facing terrorism

    I assume you mean Britain. There was internment for a short while against the Irish in the 70s which became, as Gitmo did, the biggest recruiting device for terrorists ever.

    More recently, the UK Government, under Blair pushed for a period of 90 days before a charge (id not happen was moved to 28 days), but no we try our Prisoners and send them to prison. Exceptions made result in a person being placed u bder very strict house arrest with no electronic means of communication. Our Courts continually rule that to be unlawful.
    The Government approach to terrorism most definitely does NOT get universal support.

  • WildChild

    The center is always a tough place to hold, especially after a line is drawn on the floor. The task before us is to limit the ability of the fringes to draw the line. I’m glad I grew up in a time when it was standard policy to be ready to fight a two front war. We now have one.

  • oowawa

    I think the sweeties of MV would hold bake sales for them and make sure they all had a pashmina to stay warm.

    You know, that would be so funny, if it weren’t so true! That’s exactly what would happen!

  • lark

    Let’s see, about 250 detainees divided by 50 states equals 5 detainees per state.

    He could issue an edict to do that and send a knight to ride across the land and read the news to the people in each state.

  • Ferd Berfle

    As a native Oklahoman, I am LMAO.

  • elise

    Most of those prisoners are held less than fifty miles from our home in the Super Max prison in Florence, Co. Richard Reid (shoe bomber), Ted Kazensky (unabomber), Eric Rober Rudolph (abortion clinc bomber),Zacarias Moussaoui, Ramzi Yousef (World Trade Center), Omar Abdel-Rahman (the blind shiek). We’ve never worried about it and the people in Canon City appreciate the jobs. It would take an army of terrorists to break anyone out of there.

  • UKforDems

    Comment by Mandelay | 2009-01-25 14:38:03

    I’d like to see them off the soil of the 50 states. Keep Gitmo open and keep ‘em there. And if we must stop waterboarding, let’s get an ironclad agreement with all nations that stoning women to death and beheading people are just not nice things to do, and they should stop immediately.

    So will the Us end Capital Punishment? Will the US stop providing Countries like Israel with illegal weapons such as phosphorus cluster bombs?

    And let’s include public or private lashings,

    BDSM Clubs?

    chopping off of hands and feet, and other not so nice things either.

    Blowing them off with cluster bombs is so much better.

    After all, we should be able to pressure other governments into treating their suspects/prisoners/criminals according to our laws.

    Welll at least you now have a Governmnet that at least talks of folowing its own law. However in terms of meeting International standards, the US is not a signatory to the International Criminal Court and should therefore not dictate the laws of other Cuntries.

    What the heck… forget all that dumb stuff I just said. Bring them all to Manhattan to the top of a skyscraper and lock them in a room. Then set the room on fire and give them the option of burning to death or, breaking the windows with the furniture and jumping to their deaths. Yeah … I like that one a lot. And let’s hear it for the very critical European nations with their enormous populations of Muslim immigrant workers …. the same European nations who don’t want these Gitmo prisoners either.

    Forget the dumb stuff as you just got dumber!

    Actually now America no longer has a War Criminal President, European Leaders are willing to help get rid of GITMO.

  • RIChris

    We defeated Nazi Germany, which at one point controlled all of Europe and major swaths of the Soviet Union and North Africa. We held members of that master race in prison camps scattered throughout the United States. We obliterated Japan, which had raped and pillaged most of Asia and the islands of the Pacific. And we pushed Soviet communism to a dramatic collapse. We stood up against armies that numbered in the millions. Massive air power with nuclear bombs and fully armed intercontinental ballistic missles.
    ***********************************

    And then the liberals came to town. Do you think any of that would have been possible under the dumb-ass, bleeding-heart, so-called ‘politically correct’ criteria this country is supposed to follow now?

  • UKforDems

    Or Texas? They gave us Bush.

  • Ferd Berfle

    He could issue an edict to do that and send a knight to ride across the land and read the news to the people in each state.

    Why is it that I see Eric Idle playing the part of the Knight?

  • Ferd Berfle

    Do you think any of that would have been possible under the dumb-ass, bleeding-heart, so-called ‘politically correct’ criteria this country is supposed to follow now?

    Or with the neocon-chickenhawk-sky-is-falling-send-everyone-else’s-children-off-to-war-but-not-mine ass clowns who went after the wrong enemy for the wrong reason in the wrong way under the wrong administration.

    There’s a lot of blame to go around here, toodles.

  • WildChild

    And then the liberals came to town.

    You’re kidding right? Liberals raised and led the armies that won WWII and the cold war.

  • http://www.anvp.wordpress.com soldier4hillary

    God I always love how our MSM bring stories like this back to fuel the left and some on the right. Sometimes if I didn’t know any better, I would think our enemies were writing editorials. By reading this:

    The heavily fortified compound of gray, stonewalled buildings and watchtowers has come to symbolize American abuse of some prisoners captured in Iraq after photos were released showing U.S. soldiers sexually humiliating inmates at the facility

    Symbolizing American Abuse? O-k-AY. Why not just apply it to those who were guilty instead of ALL as a whole? But then again I guess it’s easier to insinuate the whole “ALL” theory. Because I guess it is our fault we picked up our bags to go to Iraq for fun fun. Nah, it has nothing to do with the ELECTED officials PEOPLE elected to there office that voted to go there.

    But I am sure that if they continue to rehash stories like this, it will help the administration out a whole lot to push there agenda. Wow, I wish all of this righteous fury now could of been applied before we started getting killed by those nice sweet suicide bombers, mortars and IEDs.

    Or then again, I wouldn’t be suprised if somehow someone manages to spin the story that no, we arent really getting hurt and killed, that was just spin by Bush. Am I in alternate universe? What is up with all of this terrorist sympathizing crap on NQR?

    The renovated facility will be called Baghdad’s Central Prison because the name Abu Ghraib has left a “

    bitter feeling inside Iraqis’ hearts,”

    deputy Justice Minister Busho Ibrahim said Saturday.

    Bitter feelings inside Iraqi’s hearts? Are they fucking kidding me? Poor wittle Iraqi’s…Bush fucked us over, with the help of the Dem majority so now we have to sit and listen to fucking sob stories. Hmm.. let me see if I care: the 2nd of February, I will go through my third surgery for something that happened downrange. Check. My fiancee just recently had reconstruction done to his knee from a injury he was medvaced for. Check.

    But yet there are bitter feelings inside the hearts of Iraqi’s. Who knew. If the knew route to go is back to back episodes on how they are really misunderstood and harmless, I wish someone could of let the rest of us know. The way some are telling and describing it these people are just as cuddly and harmless as kittens. Or then again, maybe I just imagined the IED and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    If the price of being part of the majority and the right team is to humanize and make excuses for there actions is the route some will go, they can keep that shit. I want no part of it.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Or England-they gave the world Blair. Hell, let’s split them between Crawford and #10 Downing, as long as we’re divvying things up.

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/25/political-wimps-and-cowards-whining-about-guantanamo-terrorists/#more-12310 marie

    Comment by WildChild | 2009-01-25 19:50:41

    And then the liberals came to town.

    You’re kidding right? Liberals raised and led the armies that won WWII and the cold war.

    —————————-

    Yes, and had to fight the right-wing in this country who were adamantly opposed to our entry in that fight.

  • UKforDems

    It would not be able to make one or transport one without the deaths of all those involved. It was a myth to generate fear. The Governmnet does tell lies, even now:-

    http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/world/10/31/1031gitmo.html

  • UKforDems

    You completley missed the point. What we do to Afghan “illegal combatants”, can be done by them to ours.

    This is why the Geneva Convention should apply to whatever we do – so that breaches against our people can be prosecuted.

  • elise

    Secretary Clinton has already listed Women’s rights as a priority for her and I believe she can make a difference. Your argument for Gitmo is valid only for someone PROVEN to be guilty of a crime. As has been pointed out many times and in the post by Larry Johnson, there are innocent people there who have never been able to address the charges, since none have been brought, or given the right to face their accusers. How can we expect civilized nations to support our efforts against terrorism, if we don’t respect the Geneva Accords? Germany has tried and convicted many terrorists in their courts without compromising their own laws with regard to human rights. They don’t resort to illegal wiretaps or refuse the right to counsel and discovery. We have been brainwashed into believing the only way to prevent attacks on American soil requires we relinquish the rights and protections which have made our country great. We have tried, convicted and imprisoned terrorists before so why is it different now? Because of 9/11? Then Bin Laden and al qaeda have won and we have become what we deplore.

  • Ferd Berfle

    History escapes those who know do not read with comprehension. It also escapes all bots as a matter of course.

  • http://www.anvp.wordpress.com soldier4hillary

    Gitmo closing: Obama, as far as I have read, faces no real military opposition in regard to this matter except by those who lost Iraq, and Afgahnistan.

    Does that tell us something?

    And he wont, in regards to military opposition. One word tells it all: OPSEC

  • Ferd Berfle

    Yes, and had to fight the right-wing in this country who were adamantly opposed to our entry in that fight.

    You are spot on–the right wingers of FDR’s time were isolationists. I guess that means RIChris would have been against the war with Germany and Japan, which defeats his entire premise. LMAO

  • Mandelay

    Yes Basil, I was there too, in ’93 and ’01. NYC is my home. I could see the Twins from my corner and could walk there in 15-20 minutes. One of my close friends was working down there on 9-11 and like many others, started running north to escape the dust in the air. He told me he looked back and saw what he said looked like “droplets” coming out of one of the Twins before the building fell. He realized he was looking at people jumping out of the windows. Don’t give terrorists the rights of U.S. Citizens in our courts. They don’t deserve to stand on the soil of any of the 50 states.

  • WildChild

    Dirty bombs are fairly easy to make once you have the components, which are sitting outside of nuclear reactors all across America. Shielding isn’t all that difficult either.

    I’d illustrate but why give anyone any ideas?

  • http://! stodgie

    i used to teach history. i’d be asked often why did they need to know about it. i always told them that it explained how they came to be sitting in my class right now. then we’d have each student talk a little bit about family history. it was good way to begin the year.

  • Ferd Berfle

    You are still incorrect. Moreover, The Statesman is not a scientific website and not the best source for technical information. You really must get a better source for your information. There are dozens of websites devoted to the issues of nonproliferation and technical issues related thereto.

    It would not be able to make one or transport one without the deaths of all those involved. It was a myth to generate fear

    LMAO on that one. Since when, exactly, was a terrorist concerned about his own life? Unless your answer was just now you really are stuck in neutral on this one.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Ukelele is obfuscating again. He wouldn’t know a dirty bomb from his own dirty hams.

  • UKforDems

    Scotland gave the World Blair, but you probably do not know the difference. Actually the UK will take some GITMO prisoners (our Politicians will not exempt themselves from shouting NIMBY either)

  • Ferd Berfle

    What a great way to make it meaningful for your students

  • oowawa

    In addition to the “dirty bombs,” which is not exactly what I had in mind, there is the possibility of making a small nuclear weapon. Read the article entitled “Suitcase Nuke” on Wikipedia:

    In 1997, former Russian National Security Advisor Alexander Lebed made public claims about lost “suitcase nukes” following the dissolution of the Soviet Union. In an interview with the newsmagazine 60 Minutes, Lebed said:

    I’m saying that more than a hundred weapons out of the supposed number of 250 are not under the control of the armed forces of Russia. I don’t know their location. I don’t know whether they have been destroyed or whether they are stored or whether they’ve been sold or stolen, I don’t know.

    Russia denies all this. Who knows. There are lots of smart people in this world, and some of them are evil. If they can get the right materials, they can make a small nuclear weapon. Maybe not suitcase size–maybe as big as a Coke vending machine, or a Volkswagen. I sure don’t feel comfortable about it, do you?

  • Ferd Berfle

    Scotland gave the World Blair, but you probably do not know the difference.

    Frankly I don’t give a tinker’s cuss who brought Blair to the world’s stage–he is your very own Bush and you own him. And I never voted for Bush, so I don’t own him. Your ability to regurgitate party lines is among the best in the business. You should ask That One for a job.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Oowawa:

    And what the dismissive Ukelele fails to comprehend, since he thinks solely inside the box, is that any sort of even lightly radioisotopically-contaminated bomb would require the closing of the affected area for years while the EPA, DOE, and the NRC fought over control. Then there would be the remedial investigations followed by feasibility studies followed by sampling and analysis; followed by risk assessment; followed by remediation; followed by more sampling and analysis; followed by monitoring. Maybe after 30 or so years, the place could be re-opened for public use–maybe.

    Now imagine this being Washington, D.C.

  • http://www.anvp.wordpress.com soldier4hillary

    Here we go again:

    The renovated facility will be called Baghdad’s Central Prison because the name Abu Ghraib has left a “bitter feeling inside Iraqis’ hearts,” deputy Justice Minister Busho Ibrahim said Saturday.”

    Now terrorists are harmless and have: Bitter feelings inside there heart. Awww how cute. Now, courtesy of Bush and the new allegiance to the majority terrorists now equals *harmles friend* as everyone begin to marginalize there actions by giving them a clean slate because Bush=Bad. Because its not like any of our ELECTED officials we put into office voted to go there.

    I am simply amazed. I see more individuals fighing for THEM based on the last eight years, than anyone fighting for us. It’s like the last eight years disappeared as everyone scrambles to become part of the in crowd. What is up with the terrorist sympathy shit? To attempt to give the impression they are harmless is straight bullshit.

    Hmmmm let me see, February 2nd third surgery for the same thing because of a injury downrange. My fiancee just went through his second one to reconstruct his knee. I guess I should run in and tell him to not have bitter feeling in his heart. Wow, I must of imagined that IED since it couldn’t possibly have happened by these harmless sweet individuals that have such bitter feelings in there little ol hearts because as we know military=bush.

    At this rate terrorist sympathizers are popping up everwhere. But then again, maybe we are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Since they are so harmless, why not bring us the fuck home and let them do whatever they want. Watching Ayers pimp his book on Good Morning America, now he writes for the Huffington post. And now everyone wants Guantanamo Bay prisoners in our own back yard for there cuddly harmless factor. I am sure pretty soon everyone will be advocating for them to just open the door and let them out. People are fighting hard for these individuals and dont do shit for us because of how they feel about the past administration. I am so tired of listening to how innocent they are based on word of mouth. They will finance all types of shit when it comes to these people when we have individuals just like everyone else losing there homes and making sacrifices but can turn around a blow huge amounts just to put them in a *happy place* because all they know is: bush was bad.

    And here I am taking the high road to not become bitter and find a silver lining. I guess I missed the memo on this one.

  • WildChild

    A dirty bomb sounds great on paper but its not a very effective weapon on anything other then the psyche of the population it’s used on. We’d have to worry about the damage we would do to ourselves and our ideals in the aftermath of hysteria where one to be used here more than we would about casualties.

  • oowawa

    Yes, Ferd. There are 3 well-known circumstances that combine to make me very nervous:

    1–The Soviet Union had lots of nukes and they went out of business and split into a bunch of smaller countries. There were a lot of needy military officers and scientists in these new countries.

    2–Arab terrorists have access to huge amounts of oil money. These same people would like to destroy us and would not hesitate to do so.

    3–Port security in this country (not to mention border security) is woeful.

    I know these are all almost truisms, but this is a bad scenario, as I see it.

  • Ferd Berfle

    It’s about the environmental impact, Wildchild, which would take years to work through. In the meantime, the affected area would be closed.

    Now if this were some place important, it would have an impact.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Agreed Oowawa.

    Look at the situation near me with TVA and its fly ash problem. It is not extremely hazardous stuff but everything has ground to a halt.

    Businesses go under; housing prices drop; the cleanup is expensive so rates go up. Then people start to leave.

    Voila-A series of ghost towns and a wrecked economy.

  • JulieD

    Bob’s Hallmark –

    The detainees at Gitmo:

    are not US citizens.

    Whether they should be indefinitely detained after “Mission Accomplished” is another issue.

    Gov. Sebelius is rightly concerned about accepting them at Leavenworth.

    “The Hothouse” AKA Leavenworth always gets dumped on. It got stuck with too many Cuban refugees, who tried to destroy part of the prison.

    Placing them in state prisons is out of the question.

    Military procedures govern in this situation and they should have been immediately utilized instead of being circumvented, amended and delayed.

  • WildChild

    It depends where it goes off. In the concrete corridors of lower Manhattan most if not all of the radio active elements would be washed away by the summer rains and float out to sea. The fisheries on the jersey shore might take a hit. Even if the radio active cloud where to cross central park, it would be washed into the soil and make it’s way out the Hudson and East rivers and out to sea. Since all consumables are transported into the city from elsewhere, there isn’t any way to get it into the human food chain other then through a backyard garden or a surf fisherman.

  • oowawa

    Hmmmm…Fly ash…never even heard of the stuff! Gotta read up. O boy! Something else to worry about!

  • ritamary

    How does anyone know if they are terrorists if they have not received a fair trial? And now we find out that the Bush administration was so incompetent that information on these people was not even kept together in one place?

  • JulieD

    Only the confession would be thrown out. Other evidence would be allowed.

  • oowawa

    Soldier, I wish there was something I could say that would make a difference, but all I can come up with is this, and it is very heartfelt: thank you for your service to our country.

  • Patrick Henry

    Good Article Larry..

    I agree with your Indignation…In this Matter the USA have been Wimpy and cowardly when it comes to Gitmo..I think it was created to be another one of Interrogation facilitys the Government has send Detainees off to..in Europe..Known and unknow…I don’t like the CIA or any other American Agency participating in such Unlawful and Un`American Acts..

    This has been the “UGLY AMERICAN ON STEROIDS” at its worst..

    They do NOT Belong on CUBA Soil..They did not Attack Cuba..They belong in the United States..who they have decalred War on…Since this is a NEVER ENDING WAR…they need to go to a tribual like Nurenburg with counsel..LIKe Nurenburg..and recieve the Proper Punishment..including inprison ment inside the USA..or sentenced to DEATH if Appropiate…

    I have heard there are now dieas of asking Obama to reopen ALCATRAZ for these “WAR CRIMINALS”..and Criminals..

    Any American prison will do as far as I’m Concerned..

    just “GET ER DONE..”

    perhaps Obama will since he does Not have as many “Friends of Influence ” in Saudi Arabia..and the Middle east..

  • Cathy in Ks.

    Sorry Larry on this one I disagree with you. I live in Kansas – only a “hop, skip, and a jump” as the saying goes from Leavenworth. I’m not concerned about the detainees themselves from Gitmo. I’m concerned about any would be “terrorists sympathizers” – both foreign and home-grown. Leavenworth is a very small town. The metropolitan area of Kansas City is only a few miles away. It would not take a lot of planning to hold innocent citizens or – God forbid – school children as hostages in exchange for these prisoners’ release.

    I don’t want to even contemplate a “dirty bomb”. This may sound xenophobic but even here in Kansas there are many people living here who are from Middle Eastern countries. Most of them are probably like my brother-in-law who is now a U. S. citizen and loves this country. However, can we account for everyone? As we have seen, it doesn’t take a lot of terrorists to create chaos and havoc.

    BTW, I’m a democrat who did not vote for Obama nor did I vote for Geo. W. I have mixed feelings about Gitmo. I think the detainees are entitled to due process of law under our legal system (whatever that may be) but to place them in an area where resources are limited to protect innocent citizens from reprisals doesn’t seem to be a good idea. I’m with Goveror Sebelius on this one, even if she was an Obama supporter.

  • Animal Control

    Didn’t Eisenhower move more than a million troops in during the Normandy invasion. I mention this because I believe it’s a matter of desire. Maybe I didn’t read very well but it’s just the prisoners that people want moved not close all of Guantanamo (that’s another story). I have a problem with comprehension so if this is off topic-my bad.

  • Ferd Berfle

    Wildchild:

    This isn’t about a radioactive cloud. It is about surface contamination, which may or may not wash out to sea-this has to be proven through investigation, as I stated above. Concrete could be contaminated; the soil would be contaminated; the sewers would be contaminated. Even trace amounts of non-naturally occurring radioactivity are a no-no, particularly the toxic ones. And these are just off the top of my head. Any time a mention is made of the term radioactive, people go batshit crazy. I’ve been working in the environmental sciences as an analytical chemist since 1984 and this is the one thing that scares the public beyond good sense. It also grabs the undivided attention of EPA, the DOE, and the NRC as well as Congress.

    The DOE closed a park in Chicago for three years in the early 1990s because of a few items that were found that dated back to Manhattan Engineering District work from the 1940s. They spent a few million in an attempt to determine the nature and extent of contamination. This was solely on the discovery of a few items.

    CERCLA, 42 U.S.C. § 9601–9675 and 40CFR302, et al.,dictate requirements so it is a big deal. It is also very expensive.

  • Ferd Berfle

    The big spill at the Watts-Bar Power Plant

  • Ferd Berfle

    However, can we account for everyone? As we have seen, it doesn’t take a lot of terrorists to create chaos and havoc.

    We can’t account for any of them now with our porous borders. We spent all this time housing prisoners while the real problem was allowed to go uncorrected. At least those who are incarcerated aren’t on the loose and are accounted for.

  • WildChild

    Like I said before, the thing we have to worry about most is what we do to ourselves and our ideals were a dirty bomb to go off. Casualties would be few. Your own case in point illustrates how a radioactive something left behind by the early experimenters in Chicago wasn’t hurting anybody. I have no doubt we’d spend a lot of money on cleanup but that’s only because radioactive cleanup is a very profitable business. I knew a couple guys going into it back in the eighties. However my basic premise is sound. A dirty bomb is not a nuclear weapon. The later atomizes fallout. The former sends it out the same way it started. Anything soluble will dissolve and wash away. Any particulates will rinse away.

  • Ferd Berfle

    What we do to Afghan “illegal combatants”, can be done by them to ours.

    And what we don’t do to them could still be done by them to ours.

    I see that you are implying that Blackwater is a group of illegal combatants. That is a fact not in evidence, so I can’t answer that one.

    We are within our rights as a sovereign nation to try the “illegal combatants in a court ot law, which I have said I was in favor of. If they are found not guilty, I have said they should be deported. If they are found guilty, they should be punished in accordance with the law. This is proper under the Geneva Convention.

    If another government wants to do such with our soldiers or even subcontractors, that is within their power to do as a sovereign nation. An insurgency cannot because it doesn’t meet the legal definition of a soverign nation.

    With respect to any torture we may have committed, we should identify those responsible, including their superiors, and try them in our own courts, just as we would anyone indicted for a crime. It need not go beyond that.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    It would not take a lot of planning to hold innocent citizens or – God forbid – school children as hostages in exchange for these prisoners’ release.

    I never thought of that. The thing is only a few of the detainees had anything to do with perpetuating crimes on US soil. That’s where it gets dicey for me. I think the people who were involved in planning 9/11 are up to us to prosecute. And, possibly incarcerate in a federal prison. The others, depending on where their crimes were committed, have yet to be sorted out. I certainly don’t trust that some of the other countries would keep them out of circulation.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    Yes, Soldier. Many of these people are in such a state of reaction to the last administration, they’ve lost their ability to think rationally.

    I picked up the Sunday SF Chronicle today, just to check out how over the top they are. Still the same…having people vote on who the best and worst presidents are…of course GWB was overwhelming the worst. Only one respondent said he was a good president because the kept the country safe. And all editorial letters are so one sided and biased you have to wonder whether they’ll become so mired in their myths that they’ll never be able to look at what’s happened to us objectively,

  • Seattle Moss

    Folks,
    As predicted Obama is dismantling the shield that protects us from terrorists. It’s not really about Gitmo but the perception that the US is weak again. Throw in the investigations and prosecutions that some here want and you have the US guilty as charged in the eyes of the world..Suicide!!
    Having lived around the world I feel that some of you are too worried what other countries think.
    As long as terrorists and their enablers believe the United States will play hardball then we will continue to win this epic struggle which has only just begun. Go ahead and get caught up in the self righteousness of it all..Our enemies don’t play by the rules and will kill western civilization
    But that’s OK for some here because at least we died playing by OUR rules.

    As for Afganistan…Another lie!!
    During the campaign Obama and his minions kept telling the gullible that we have to leave Iraq and win Afganistan..What crap..Afganistan has not been conquered for 2000 years..Now Obama wants to broaden the war to include Pakistan…Talk about creating enemies..You haven’t seen anything yet.

  • http://! stodgie

    seattle, there won’t be any investigations. that is show and show only. the far left can hoop and holler about it, but it won’t happen. if the world i would like to see we would be called to account for our actions, but some of the dems are just as corrupt as the repubs. they can’t afford to have the public look closely.

  • http://! stodgie

    as for the rest, the prisoners won’t be coming to the usa. i don’t belive it will happen. a year is a long time. i can do nothing about perception. obama will find himself with fewer options than he might think. in the end he’ll answer to the the money men and not the far left.

  • Seattle Moss

    Any investigation will reveal that everyone on both sides of the aisle were involved.
    Lets face the facts…911 produced
    Fear….Uncertainty…Revenge and most people at the time supported whatever efforts to stop attacks.

    America must be strong with resolve at this critical moment…We are very vulnerable right now!

  • Docelder

    Yes, have the perception that we are weak… and we just as well be weak because we will get attacked as if we were weak. Know why we put these folks in Cuba? Because, nobody else would want or should want them in their country. These folks are terror magnets, whether they themselves are overt terrorists or not. If these folks are held anywhere under the control of any authority the terrorists think would be vulnerable to terror or ransom demands… then they will be inviting this on themselves just for hosting these prisoners. As for Pakistan… or as Obama says pok-e-ston… Obama has had plans for Pakistan all along. You just had to read between the lines as you parse his twisted words.

  • Docelder

    Seattle, keep on, you are dead on. Yes, and to add to the perception of weakness on 9-11 we had just cam off a presidency marked by an impeachment trial. No matter how anybody feels about moral values, we all know what the definition of “is” is. So, my point is when we look corrupt to the rest of the world, we also look weak to the rest of the world. Te two things go together. Banana republics are corrupt… banana republics are weak. Now, as congress wanes on about trying Bush “criminals” we again appear weak. As Obama appears to offer olive branches to our enemies… to our enemies we appear weak. Sorry, I don’t have a unicorn and sugar cookies to go along with that assessment. It is what it is.

  • Seattle Moss

    The prisoners at Gitmo are treated better than they would be if not out in the open for the world to see.
    Where are they to go? the supermax..The most horrible prison where the only thing you can hear is yourself..A prison that makes you insane.
    Or how about putting prisoners out of sight out of mind..That’s what closing Gitmo really means

  • Cathy in Ks.

    Annie, I agree that it’s our problem to solve. I just don’t want them in my backyard. “Gitmo” has become a negative symbol for our country – particularly for those “jihadists” you mentioned in an earlier comment. I fear for the safety of any community that may be near where these prisoners will be housed.

    This is a messy situation with no easy solutions. And yes, I also agree with Ferd that our “porous borders” have made it easy for foreign born terrorists to infiltrate our country. How many are in Kansas or every state in the Union right now just waiting for the Gitmo detainees to be re-located to Leavenworth or some place like it and then strike with bombs, taking of hostages, or some other violent assault on unsuspecting, innocent citizens?

  • stodghie

    good insight moss!

  • lark

    I don’t see it that way. I see that the closing of Gitmo will actually become an affront to our Constitution because it will test our Constitution. And it IS also an affront to this group’s beloved SoS Hillary Clinton and it will also test her badly and place her entire mission in jeopardy.

    The terrorist at Gitmo are at war with us. No one has surrendered for them; no one responds for them, they have not surrendered to us or our government, they are still our enemies. They already committed their felonious acts against freedom and liberty and against the people of Afghanistan. And now if they are brought into the country they will fight to make our Constitution fail. The Gitmo terrorist need to be tried in a military court and not brought into the country and given the rights granted by the U.S. Constitution to its citizens.

  • stodghie

    lark, you make good points. the question in my mind is this ie evidence admissable in court. so much of it is hearsay or under wraps.

  • JulieD

    Caveat: Unless the other evidence came as a result of the coerced confession. The proverbial “Fruit of the Poisonous Tree”.

  • lark

    To my mind is not so much important the evidence because I believe they were supporting the Taliban and Al Quaeda. It is more important to get them to a trial where a military judge can provide them with a path toward rehabilitation. If they take that path they could at some future date be free, but if they want to remain at war then they would remain the rest of their lives in prison.

  • Seattle Moss

    Lark
    Very well said!

    And now if they are brought into the country they will fight to make our Constitution fail.

    They will attack our constitution like a terrorist attack through the courts.

  • http://firefox AnnieCollier

    I’m certainly much more a protectionist than a globalist. Although there’s no way to fight globalism now, I’d be happy if we could pull back to at least putting our country first. There’s a war going on at the southern border and anything can happen down there. It is riddled with tunnels as well.

    If the Dems weaken our protections so much that we have another attack, it will swing the other way so fast heads will spin. It almost seems as though the only time since 1992 we haven’t been polarized was during the shock of 9/11.

  • Seattle Moss

    Anne,
    This economic crisis has a silver lining I dare to say.By decimating the playing field world wide America has the rare chance of reinventing itself. As the engine of the world we have the infrastructure and where with all to invest in manufacturing and lead the world out of this mess.

  • JulieD

    SAINTIXE56 –

    There are numerous differences between holding over 200 alleged terrorists and Dahmer or Bundy, who as US citizens were held in jails and then convicted and housed in state prisons.

    A better analogy is that of the Cubans being held at Leavenworth and in Georgia (Federal Prisons). There were riots and great property destruction.

    Additionally, there is no vast political movement supporting Dahmer – murdered in prison by a fellow inmate and Bundy – executed by Ole’ Sparky.

    The German POWs held in the US caused few problems during WWII because they came to love the US and many immigrated to the US after the war.

    The cretins who flew into the Trade Towers never succumbed to US charms the same way. Sure they enjoyed strip joints, but they still hated US.

    The US Constitution applies to US citizens, not the entire world.

    Military procedures govern in this situation and they should have been immediately utilized instead of being circumvented, amended and delayed.

  • Seattle Moss

    Thanks Docelder..I wanted to make sure I got back to you..You’re definitely a person that sees the world for what it is and not what we wish it could be.

  • NoBamaNoWay

    wow. your sense of moral equivalence is, well, scary. you are a fine representative of obama leftists.

  • Hot Librarian

    LOL Everybody who was a threat to rome got nailed to the X. The appian way had 6,000 rebel gladiators pinned up & no one was allowed to take their bodies down. Stunk the place out for years.

    Gitmo -why not give the whole place back to Cuba . Im sure the Cubans could take care of the inmates quite efficiently.

  • UKforDems

    Comment by NoBamaNoWay | 2009-01-26 01:21:27

    wow. your sense of moral equivalence is, well, scary. you are a fine representative of obama leftists.

    You have no idea of who or what I am, but I am no leftist. If I am a “leftist”, I guess that makes you a full arms out brigade, sheet wearing right wing thug.

  • UKforDems

    I own Blair as much as you own Bush then.I never voted for Bliar either. In fact you own Bliar more as he is Middle East Peace Envoy for the US and the “Quartet of Powers”.

    If Obama can, I hope he sacks him. He has not exactly been a resounding success in Israel. (maybe we agree on something).

  • UKforDems

    ELise gets it, Madelay does not.If we do not abide by the Geneva Convention we can not complain when opponents do not.

    Inalienable Rights mean just that – they are rights that are part of our nature as humans. Any less make us animals. That includes the right to a fair trial for all.

    For those that support the disgrace that is Gitmo, you have the blood of the beheaded on your hands as well.

  • UKforDems

    Given that the US Government has so far been unable to make battlefield nuclear weapons (and it does want to), how can some “terrorist”, without immediately dying of radiation poisoning while making it?

    WildChild is right. A dirty bomb, if ever made would do more damage because of the fear and panic caused by ignorance (well demonstrated barfly) and not injury or long term radiation.

  • kgirl

    well that’s you, but it’s not most of america.

  • UKforDems

    They are happy to be free from dictatorship but not man enough to believe in freedom and liberty and the rule of law. They are unable to live in liberty and to create laws and prison systems to preserve their liberty and freedom.

    I thought Iraq was a peace keeping mission now. I must have missed the latest Republican PUMA briefing.

    The situation in Iraq was not helped by what happened when we went in, we came as “liberators” introducing our “freedom” but at the expense of stolen oil, awarded on no bid contracts to the friends of Cheney and Bush. From Liberators to Looters. The Interim Iraqi Administration gave the economy of Iraq to a few American firms who also backed Bush and Cheney.

    As for Afghanistan – we never went in there to stop the Taliban. They became a convenient excuse.

  • kgirl

    How about we close Gitmo, and then send them to a few US Territories. Truthfully, what politician would want to agree with this, have them sent to their state and something happen. I know sure the hell wouldn’t. You can be compassionate and honorable without being stupid and placing people at risk. I believe it is what Christians call being wise as serpents but gentle as doves.

  • UKforDems

    Comment by Ferd Berfle | 2009-01-25 18:14:18

    Wildchild is correct. The terrorist threat is real but does not represent a valid reason to throw out the Constitution, imprison people for years on end, and spy on Americans. Sorry, but when that happens, our enemy wins.

    Barfly – so what was tha argument about earlier – you are now agreeing with my same views? Were you just wanting to take an opposing view for the sake of it?

  • UKforDems

    Bitter feelings inside Iraqi’s hearts? Are they fucking kidding me? Poor wittle Iraqi’s…Bush fucked us over, with the help of the Dem majority so now we have to sit and listen to fucking sob stories. Hmm.. let me see if I care: the 2nd of February, I will go through my third surgery for something that happened downrange. Check. My fiancee just recently had reconstruction done to his knee from a injury he was medvaced for. Check.

    You got a salary; they got invaded. They have a right to be bitter – especially given that we are supposed to be there as liberators and laterly “Peace Keepers”.

  • UKforDems

    How did he keep the Country safe when the worst Terrorist outrage happened on his watch? Not once but 3 times on the one day. One – a security failing. Twice Incompetence. Three times – Treasonable dereliction of duty.

  • UKforDems

    Comment by Seattle Moss | 2009-01-25 22:41:42

    Folks,
    As predicted Obama is dismantling the shield that protects us from terrorists. It’s not really about Gitmo but the perception that the US is weak again. Throw in the investigations and prosecutions that some here want and you have the US guilty as charged in the eyes of the world..Suicide!!
    Having lived around the world I feel that some of you are too worried what other countries think.
    As long as terrorists and their enablers believe the United States will play hardball then we will continue to win this epic struggle which has only just begun. Go ahead and get caught up in the self righteousness of it all..Our enemies don’t play by the rules and will kill western civilization
    But that’s OK for some here because at least we died playing by OUR rules.

    If we do not play by our rules the “terrorists” have already won.

  • WildChild

    your views? You’re a northern Irishman. UKie, you live in the last place on earth that needs to be lecturing Americans about justice.

  • WildChild

    UKie you should really grow a brain before you talk about things you about which you haven’t a clue. The US has had battlefield nuclear weapons since the fifties.

  • http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/25/political-wimps-and-cowards-whining-about-guantanamo-terrorists/#more-12310 marie

    Gitmo was going to close no matter who won the election. It really HAS to close or we’re on a path to a point in the future when the government may decide it has the right — in these dangerous times — to ignore due process for anyone, even ordinary citizens, and just lock them away for however long we feel endangered. This is how such evil begins, with a very understandable and defensible action like the suspected terrorists. Once we’ve all accepted that, it really is but a short step to losing our own rights.

    This isn’t about how well or how badly we treat them; it’s about how we allow our government, with its awesome power, to treat us.

  • RIChris

    Bill Clinton gave out enough free passes to terrorists that they figured the US was an easy target. George Bush made certain it wasn’t repeated.

  • Sassy

    Where will the trials be held?
    The D.C. District Court?
    How much security will be required?
    Where is the evidence?
    Where are the witnesses?
    How long will each trial take?
    How many appeals will play out?
    How long will the appeals process take?
    How much security will be required to transport these prisoners from their prisons around the country for each appeal appearance?
    Just asking…and tying up a few loose ends.

  • UKforDems

    Barfman, the US has not as yet, developed and or deployed low yield nuclear weapons on a battlefield. The nearest to hold such weaponary is actually the UK. If you know different please tell. Otherwise go hide in your cupboard again. They bogeyman might get you.

  • UKforDems

    Apols Barfly, it was not you being so stuod it was feralbrat.

  • Linda C.

    If anyone of those religious yahoos escapes from prison the public will conduct its own manhunt for them. I often wonder what the “prisoner justice system” would do to them anyway.

  • Seattle Moss

    If we do not play by our rules the “terrorists” have already won.

    Dead is dead UK…I think the terrorists win if they destroy western civilization regardless of who’s rules are being played.

    History shows that the survivors are the only ones that matter..They make the rules!

  • Peggy Sue

    Keep it going, soldier4hillary. The truth is a bitter pill to swallow but if we don’t start taking large doses of it, we’re all doomed.

    I read an interview with Bill Ayers this morning defending his “terrorist days” and saying that John McCain was a terrorist, too.

    Pure horseshit.

    Call it for what it is. Someone on another thread warned me not to give Obama credit for any of these ExOrders. I agree. Credit given where and when credit is due. We’re well beyond the point where the “words matter” mantra makes sense [not that it made a lot of sense then, particularly since the line was lifted].

    But you have a very specific point of view that we all need to hear, based on real experience. The windbags and politicians will continue their spin. But one of the reasons I read the blogs and various boards is to find voices like yours.

    So, keep it up. You’re doing another service for all of us. And for that, I thank you.

  • I Want A Do Over

    http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2009/01/former-gitmo-detainees-want-apology.html

    The terrorists want REPARATIONS and an APOLOGY from Obama. Bet you they get it! The left is slowly completely destroying this country. But that was the agenda all along.

  • retire05

    “To pretend that terrorism is the greatest, most severe threat we have ever faced displays a level of ignorance of history”….

    What a load of crap this is. This is the same damn thing you were saying, Larry, on July 10, 2001 when you wrote your mind numbing op-ed opining that the terrorist threat to the U.S. was not all that great.

    Two months later almost 3,000 Americans were dead from the threat you claimed did not exist.

    The level of ignorance shown is not from those who do not realize that a religious movement that owes loyality to any nation and wears no uniform, is a shadow enemy that lives among us. Yet, you Larry, give people a false impression that putting our American citizens in harm’s way by admitting Gitmo detainees into our own prison system is A-OK, not harm done.

    The worry is not that we cannot house these lowest of human forms. The worry, had you bothered to read the opinions of others, is that it is their fellow jolly jihadists who would put the surrounding areas into harm’s way.

    I realize that for a lot of you, 9-11 is only an image in the rear view mirror. But if the risk is so low, then why did the 9-11 Families come out against this move? Hell, why don’t we just take all the world’s criminal population so that John Murtha can have a economic boom in Pennslyvania building prisons?

    But keep posting such crap. When we are hit again, and we WILL BE, then you can once again state with certainty that terrorism is not the greatest threat that western civilization has ever seen.

    I sometimes wonder if you are on the payroll of the Saudis.

  • Ellen D

    Can I nominate the Mojave Desert around Death Valley as a great place to put them?

  • Cecelia

    Your point is taken. But here is the real fear.
    1. We will give them equal rights under our laws and Constitution as US citizens.

    2. That their presence in our prisons will result in a US prisoner committing murder.

    3. That our enemies will view us as weak in our resolve as a people.

    If we can no longer interrogate them, and they will be brought to US soil for imprisonment and be a tax burden, why not kill them all? Why take a prisoner? No advantage to them living past the killing fields. Well is there?

  • I Want A Do Over

    retire05…

    My sentiments exactly. This is RIDICULOUS. How about giving the terrorists driver’s licenses, welfare checks, health care, etc. Because that’s where these lunatics are headed with this nonsense.

  • http://www.williamkwolfrum.com/2009/02/05/we-must-execute-all-hard-core-hardened-battle-tested-extreme-terrorists-at-guanatamo-bay-if-we-can/ William K. Wolfrum Chronicles » Blog Archive » We must execute all hard-core, hardened, battle-tested, extreme terrorists at Guanatamo Bay – if we can

    [...] terrorists will use their super-hard-core, hardened, battle-tested, extreme terrorist skills to break out, or be broken out of whatever super max prison they are held at, and quickly go on murderous [...]

  • http://fprison.wordpress.com mukraker

    Is the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP) up to the task of housing politically oriented prisoners without making the problem worse? Read this post by a former inmate which exposes corruption of the BOP. The prison camp system in the BOP is large and the inmates party 24/7 on the taxpayer dollar. It is a far more scandalous problem than the media have ever acknowledged. Everyone from street level crack dealers to major league financial scammers like Joe Nacchio, Sam Waksal and Andrew Fastow have gone camping instead of going to prison.

    http://fprison.wordpress.com

    The Federal Bureau of Prisons is corrupt and/or incompetent.

  • mountainaires

    retire05:

    Bush was on the payroll of the Saudis.

    Some of the 9-11 families are against this; not all. Please don’t try to exploit them by misrepresenting them as a monolithic group.

  • mountainaires

    Corrections Corporation of America….our prison systems are increasingly run by a private “free-market” corporate entity, represented on the stock exchange these days.

    It is a corrupt system, in my view, although I differ with you on the question of whether or not it is “up to the task” of housing terrorists. It is definitely up to the task, but it will cost us.

    http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=867

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrections_Corporation_of_America

    http://www.correctionscorp.com/

  • http://fprison.wordpress.com mukraker

    Oh the BOP can house them, but it will be exactly like Guantanamo. They will have a unit like ADMAX in Florence Colorado, possibly an ADMAX two, or a huge several hundred million dollar expansion.

    Once this starts it -like the rest of the prison industrial complex- will grow.

    None of these people need to be imprisoned here. The world is full of hundreds of millions of people who hate America. Hating us and being able to strike at us without the aid of the CIA and Pentagon as on 9/11 is a completely different question. Those agencies and institutions in Washington D.C. are the enemy of the American people.

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