A Major CIA Blackeye if True

I read about this on-going case earlier today. Not only is it horrible for the women involved [I understand he taped "these sessions" after drugging the women] but it’s a huge smear against the US, just another piece of ammunition to prove that we are indeed “The Great Satan.”

I also read this man was a relatively recent convert to Islam. There’s something here that doesn’t quite compute. Why become seriously religious and then start raping women? Unless, of course, you believe the worst about the muslim faith. Hummm. Something squirrely.

But then, maybe those conversion details are erroneous. In any case, it’s a God awful situation. For everyone.

The glamor of being a spy in a foreign country–the movies love the image of the dashing agent with gorgeous women at his beck and call (James Bond comes to mind). Well, this is certainly the seamy shadow side of that image. I’m sorry this happened. It will be interesting to see how the Arab news sources spin the fact that he is a convert to Islam.

Apparently my husband heard this on tonight’s news
(which I no longer watch). Strange, with most of the real news not being reported by the msm, that this was reported.

Larry – where will this be ajudicated?

It plays into the “Hate America First” theme of the new Obama admin. Another shame on America moment.

Correction – where will it be ajudicated if it took place in the embassy. Would Hillary then be involved in the mess?

Wow, converted to Islam and he disrespects women? Whoda’ thunk?

The reporting of this story is disturbing on many levels. Why is it necessary ot indentify the religion of both the suspect and the victim? WHy not simply A CIA station accuse of raping women in Algeria?

Rape is rape. Whether it is done on Muslim women or non muslim women.

Did we identify the soldiers implicated in the Abu Gharib scandal as Chirstians raping Muslim men with sharp objects?

I think the media has lost the ability of reporting news. Democracy is hijacked by incomeptent journalists.

allow me to let you in on a tip–YOU NEVER, EVER WANT TO BE ARRESTED AND TRIED IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY FOR A SEX CRIME.

Okay! I won’t! Funny, I think I knew that. What in the world was he thinking of? He KNEW the consequences! Very odd.

Now, if he were a character in a novel, this would all be a big set-up for some dark reason. Maybe we shouldn’t jump to conclusions.

If you have never seen Midnight Express allow me to let you in on a tip–YOU NEVER, EVER WANT TO BE ARRESTED AND TRIED IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY FOR A SEX CRIME.

Turkish justice is no paragon, but its shortcomings have little to do with the fact that the Turkish population is overwhelmingly Muslim. The modern Turk republic was founded as an aggressively secular state. Until recently, Turkey even banned the wearing of headscarves by Muslim women. There have been recent struggles in Turkey between the secularists and the Islamists, but Turkey remains the least theocratic country in the Muslim world. Vastly different than Saudi Arabia, where the law is made and enforced by religious officials.

Also, Midnight Express was a work of Hollywood fiction, about someone who was imprisoned for a drug crime.

This is awful for the women, if true. As for judging the alleged perpetrator, extreme Islamist/Arab countries who stone and kill women and girl victims of sexual assault for “dishonoring” their families, glass houses, people.

Hmmmm…I guess you can document a lot of cases where it’s OKAY in the Christian and Jewish faiths to murder WOMEN in so called “honor killings?” LMAO. Truthtelling, you are never on the side of the people, the country or anything moral, ethical or right. Sorry.

For Muslim women, a deadly defiance
‘Honor killings’ on rise in Europe

By Colin Nickerson, Globe Staff January 16, 2006

BERLIN — Life was just starting to look up for 23-year-old Hatun Surucu when the bullets cut her down.

After four years of grueling courses in vocational school, coupled with the demands of single motherhood, she was only weeks away from receiving certification as an electrician, a trade that would give her the independence she desperately craved.

It had been a rough road: Eight years earlier, her parents, Turkish immigrants, had yanked Surucu from eighth grade, bundled her off to Istanbul, and forced her to marry an older cousin. Miserable in Turkey, she had fled her husband and returned to Berlin with her infant son, determined to make her own way as a modern woman in a secular society, according to friends.

For a Muslim barely out of girlhood, it was an act of extraordinary defiance against her family. And it cost Surucu her life.

As Europe’s Muslims become increasingly conservative, growing numbers of women are being killed or mutilated in the name of ”family honor,” according to law enforcement agencies, women’s activist groups, and moderate Islamic organizations. These cases usually involve an attack on a Muslim woman by a close relative — typically a brother or father — angered by her refusal to accept a forced marriage or her insistence on leading a Western-style life.

There were at least eight such slayings in Berlin alone in 2005, and 47 honor killings of Muslim women across Germany in the past six years, according to police, media reports, and activist groups. Not coincidentally, activists say, tens of thousands of European-born Muslim women are annually forced into unwanted marriages, often to much older men, in their family’s home countries. Refusal to submit to such marriages can bring a death sentence.

Following a spate of headline-grabbing cases, including Surucu’s murder, European countries are slowly coming to recognize honor killings as a distinct crime.

In Great Britain, for example, a police review of 22 domestic homicides last year resulted in 18 being reclassified as ”murder in the name of so-called ‘honor.’ ” Scotland Yard has reopened probes into 109 suspicious deaths, covering a 10-year span, that seem to have been family conspiracies to kill Muslim women.

The violent trend, say authorities, reflects the strengthening grip of religious fundamentalism among the continent’s 16 million Muslims, many of whom suffer from rising unemployment, inadequate education, and — perhaps above all — the sense of being unwelcome outsiders in their adopted homes. As Muslim men embrace radical Islam and return to age-old customs, women are paying a cruel price.

”There is a lost generation of Muslims in Europe,” said Eren Uensal, spokeswoman for the Turkish Federation of Berlin. ”Ten years ago, Muslims here were more modern, more secular than those ‘back home.’ Now the situation has reversed. The younger men feel there is no place for them in Europe, but they also feel there is no place else for them.”

Islamic radical groups are filling the vacuum. ”The most alarming thing they teach is that violence is an acceptable way to enforce religious views or social customs,” Uensal said. ”Much of that violence is against women.”

Hatun Surucu’s murder was fairly typical of Europe’s recent honor killings.

Her parents and brothers in Berlin were outraged when Surucu abandoned her husband and returned to Germany with her infant son, Can. Even deeper than the anger was the family’s sense of disgrace at this display of female independence, according to court testimony and family friends.

But Surucu wanted to make her own way. She stayed at a Berlin women’s shelter only long enough to complete middle school. Then she found a part-time job, moved into a tiny apartment, and enrolled in a vocational program.

Further enraging her family, she abandoned the hijab — the traditional head scarf worn by some Muslim women — in favor of earrings, makeup, and blue jeans. Her son, now 6, was the light of her life, friends say. But Surucu also loved movies and going out dancing.

”All she wanted, really, was to be an ordinary person, just a normal young woman,” said Georg Neumann, a friend of Surucu’s at the vocational school.

On the night of Feb. 7, 2005, at a bus stop two blocks from her apartment, Surucu was waiting under a street lamp when bullets tore into her chest and face at point-blank range.

The slaying, according to police, was a family affair.

Three of Surucu’s five brothers have been charged with murder. One has already confessed in a chilling court statement. ”She wanted her own circle of friends” outside the family, Ayhan Surucu, 18, said of his sister. ”It was too much.”

Ayhan, the youngest brother, is charged with pulling the trigger. An older brother is charged with acquiring the gun, and a middle brother is accused of luring his sister to the murder scene with a phone call in which he said the family wanted to discuss reconciliation.

”She was still so much wanting to be one with her family,” Neumann said. ”She didn’t want to be cut off from them. She only wanted them to accept that she could have her own life.”

Britain opened a review of the suspicious cases after a Kurdish immigrant from Iraq, Abdullah Yones, held his 16-year-old daughter over a bathtub and slashed her throat in 2004 after discovering that she was trading love letters with a boy in her high school class in London. In court last year, Yones insisted that his daughter brought her fate on herself. On the day he was sentenced to life imprisonment, dozens of approving Kurdish men came to court to show solidarity with Yones, according to media accounts.

In a more recent German case, Goenuel Karabey, 20, the daughter of Turkish immigrants living in Berlin, refused a forced marriage last June and disappeared with her boyfriend, a Christian.

Humiliated, her father and brothers tracked her down in Wiesbaden, in western Germany, at the home of the boyfriend’s mother. Karabey was shot dead in the garden after agreeing to speak with her family. Her brother, Ali, later surrendered the murder weapon to police, according to media reports.

Along with last year’s subway bombings in London by home-grown Islamic zealots and riots in the Arab suburbs of France, the honor killings in Europe have horrified a continent that, until recent years, has paid little heed — many politicians now concede — to the religious fundamentalism breeding in its midst.

Moderate Islamic groups and some European leaders are warning that honor killings reflect a trend of fundamentalism that sneers at Western laws and values.

”There are two societies with two different value systems living side by side — but wholly apart — in Europe,” said Seyran Ates, a Berlin lawyer of Turkish origin who often works with women trying to escape forced marriages.

The first two generations of immigrants, Ates said, found plentiful jobs and were generally content. But the generation of European-born Muslims now coming of age, Ates said, ”never integrated into Western society [and] are becoming more and more conservative, not less so.”

A Berlin group, Wildwasser, provides hiding places for girls ages 12 to 18 who feel their lives are in danger, mainly because of their refusal to enter forced marriages or to quit school in favor of duties at home.

”So many cases we see involve young [Muslim] girls who are exposed to ideas of equality and freedom, and take to these ideas like flowers to the sun,” said Mehriban Ozer, a social worker for Wildwasser. ”They want to go to school. They want a life. The violence comes from fathers and brothers . . . who now see the tiniest step toward freedom by a female to be a terrible break from tradition.”

Although Muslims represent less than 5 percent of the German population, about half of the girls who come to Wildwasser fleeing violence at home are Turks, Arabs, North Africans, or West Asians from strict Islamic families, according to Trina Leichsenring, the group’s director.

The rise of fundamentalism among Muslims in Europe can be blamed, at least partially, on the failure of countries to integrate the millions of Muslims who started arriving in large numbers in the 1960s. Two generations later, most lead lives largely segregated from the mainstream. ”It’s been taboo to discuss integration. It offends those who say every expression of cultural difference is somehow wonderful,” said Heinz Buschkowsky, mayor of the Berlin borough of Neukoelln, where more than a third of the residents are Arabs and Turks. ”But now, with culture being expressed by covering women’s faces or killing a girl who refuses to marry some old man in the home village, perhaps it is time to break the taboo.”

In Neukoelln’s largely immigrant Thomas Morus school, not far from the place where Hatun Surucu was murdered, students greeted news of her slaying with loud approval. Her brothers were hailed as local heroes.

The principal, Volker Steffans, was so disgusted by the display that he sent a letter to parents, to be read and signed, explaining what he had always regarded as obvious — that girls should not be harassed for refusing to wear head scarves; that girls should not be attacked for wanting to pursue careers; that women should not be murdered for expecting tolerance and equality in a Western society.

”A murder happened nearby; a young woman was killed. She died because she wanted to live freely,” Steffans said. ”But we are shocked by the fact that students approve of this murder and say [Surucu] deserved to die because she ‘lived like a German.’ “

If you have never seen Midnight Express allow me to let you in on a tip–YOU NEVER, EVER WANT TO BE ARRESTED AND TRIED IN A MUSLIM COUNTRY FOR A SEX CRIME.

Midnight Express is a work of Hollywood fiction about someone imprisoned in Turkey for a drug crime.

Turkish justice is no paragon, but that has little to do with the fact that the Turkish population is overwhelmingly Muslim. The modern Turkish republic was founded as a resolutely secular state that rejected the theocratic nature of the old Ottoman Empire. Until recently, Turkey even banned women from wearing the Muslim head scarf. There have been struggles recently between the secularists and Islamists, but Turkey continues to have the widest separation of church and state in the Muslim world.

Vastly different than Saudi Arabia, where sharia is the civil law, and is enforced by religious officials.

Why is it necessary ot indentify the religion of both the suspect and the victim?

Because it is a crucial factor in what will happen in reaction in Algeria.

I think the media has lost the ability of reporting news. Democracy is hijacked by incomeptent journalists.

I agree, but for just the opposite reason. American reporters are compromised by nationalistic bias. None of them were honest enough to call torture by its name (“aggressive interrogation techniques”!!) until after Bush had been voted out of office. Here’s a great quote about American war correspondents — and Americans in general — from Kendrick Oliver’s book on the My Lai massacre:

In many parts of the Pacific Theatre, John Dower observes, the killing of Japanese prisoners became ‘everyday practice’; yet, in his study of the output of war correspondents during the conflict, Phillip Knightly records that he could find no reports in wartime Allied newspapers of atrocities committed by Allied troops….Neither U.S. media outlets themselves nor their readers and listeners seemed particularly receptive to stories that disturbed, however faintly, the discursive nexus between war-making and national virtue.

The report I saw on this crime referred to the CIA officer as an “Ugly American.” Uh, NO. Being an “Ugly American” means one is rude, obnoxious, coarse, arrogant, etc. It does NOT mean one is a RAPIST. Using that kind of language completely minimizes this horrible crime.

The same article said that the US would demonstrate how strongly they deal with the issue of rape. Well, since the average length of time served for rape is 5.4 yrs (stat from 1992, apparently the latest available), I’d say they are pretty damn tepid. That amt of time in no way, shape, or form, indicates a commitment by the US on the issue. Not even close.

here here!
Amy, as usual you knock home the truth here.

So long as the story remains about image, or about reputation (not by Larry, but ABC or others), then we will not deal with this as a crime of rape. It is a universal violation regardless of who committed it. And yes, we should see a punishment far beyond 5.4 years on average.

powerful response amy, thank you.

Thanks, 007. I appreciate that.

It never fails to amaze me how rapists often spend only a little longer in prison than those who commit crimes against property.

Every woman who is raped has her life changed forever. And not just hers, but the dynamics in her relationships, often her ability to even HAVE relationships, work, all of that. And these men get out after less than 5 1/2 yrs. That is not justice served.

It IS indicative, though, of the value placed on women in this culture.

Christian, Buddist, Jew, or Pagan—the guy, if the charges are true, is a rapist. The authorities also need to look into his past to see if he may be a suspect in other rapes.

If he really did this and taped the sessions, let Algeria have him.

djmm

I hope the women aren’t also punished for his crime, as is the case in Muslim countries.

Agreed, and important we keep that up front and center.

There are crimes that are far less traumatic, in fact some that aren’t even traumatic (white collar crimes) that get more time.

There has to be a national shift in penalties for rape. It is one of the few crimes I believe in mandatory sentences for.

Being an “Ugly American” means one is rude, obnoxious, coarse, arrogant, etc.

That is indeed the common usage, but it’s mistaken. I’ve read The Ugly American, the 1950s novel that spawned the catch-phrase. In the book, the “ugly American” is literally a homely man. His behavior, however, is the opposite of what is now commonly referenced by “ugly American.” He’s respectful of the non-Western culture in which he resides, and his egalitarian views win people over.

The common usage of “ugly American” is like the common usage of Frost’s phrase, “good fences make good neighbors” — people use it to convey exactly the opposite sentiment of what the author meant.

All that aside, you’re right about rape being a much more serious crime than believing your race, ethnicity, or culture is superior.

I believe in mandatory sentences

Mandatory sentences are mindless by design, and they predictably produce injustices.

In my state, there’s a mandatory one-year jail term for selling drugs within 1,000 feet of any school property line. The legislators had this vision in their heads of drug fiends peering through the chain-link fence and calling out to little kids. The first victim of the new law was a teenager who brought a tiny amount of pot to school and sold it to a friend. It was his first crime of any kind, and the judge had no choice but to send him to the state prison for a year. He probably got raped there. Isn’t that ironic in the context of this thread?

We have judges so they can apply judgment to the circumstances of each crime, rather than giving the same punishment to everyone regardless of the degree of their guilt. Weighing the facts against the law is one of the foundation stones of civilization, and we shouldn’t abandon it out of frustration or rage.

Yes Red, what you say about the protagonist of the novel is correct. However, the common usage of the term is derived from the description of a Burmese journalist in the novel:

“For some reason, the people I meet in my country are not the same as the ones I knew in the United States. A mysterious change seems to come over Americans when they go to a foreign land. They isolate themselves socially. They live pretentiously. They’re loud and ostentatious.” The phrase “ugly Americans” came to be applied to Americans behaving in this manner.

This citation is from the Wikipedia article on the novel. The overall theme of the novel is characterized as follows:

The novel describes how the United States is losing the struggle with Communism—what was later to be called the battle for hearts and minds—in Southeast Asia, because of arrogance and failure to understand the local culture.

If the behavior of the CIA executive in question turns out to be as described, he seems to be much wors than even this description of an “Ugly American.”

Except you rephrased my sentence, and parsing it changed its meaning. I don’t believe in mandatory sentences in the way you just said it. I want rape to have a mandatory minimum. Too many times excuses are used to let violent rapists get off.

If you want to change words and argue with them, then you are arguing with yourself.

I didn’t refer to any other crimes.

I didn’t refer to any other crimes.

You said you believe in mandatory sentences for a “few crimes.” That’s with an “s”, as in the plural case.

But there’s no point in arguing with you about what you meant, which you know better than I do. I just don’t believe in mandatory, blind sentencing for any crimes, for the reasons I laid out.

Oh, please.

Are you really suggesting that any American who’s not in serious need psychiatric are would take satisfaction from this sort of story?

I think I’ll have another go at part of that:

…who’s not in serious need of psychiatric care…

Great points about our strongest NATO ally. I am a Turkophile myself. OT, but you must have read that book, ‘Red’.

where’s the michelle obama “whitey” tape?

what’s the big deal? if there weren’t 4 male witnesses, it didn’t happen. read your quran. heck, if anything, the women will be blamed, disgraced, and executed. the quran doesn’t say anything about allowing video/sound recorded evidence, you know. (sarcasm).

shocking, isn’t it?

Where’s your life?

foundering in a plate cold green eggs and ham

you are correct, IJDGI; at least if a western (jewish, christian, atheist) person kills their family members over some dispute (divorce, adultery, whatever) everyone else naturally views this as insane and criminal in the highest degree. the difference with muslims is that so many of them support this.

the widespread support is just as scary as the act itself. it is the same with suicide bombings of civilians; these killers are not just a few random whackos; they are viewed as heroes by their families and community.

DE.POR.TA.TION!

look, Turkey may be slightly more civilized that most other muslim countries, but that’s not saying much, is it? And you said:

“Turkish justice is no paragon, but that has little to do with the fact that the Turkish population is overwhelmingly Muslim.”

what are you smoking? name one muslim country that has anything remotely approaching western stardards of human rights, especially in the area of ciminal justice and law enforcement? why do you think we send suspected terrorists back to muslim countries for a little extra-rigorous interrogation?

We aren’t at war with Algeria. The military is supposed to administer justice in cases like the My Lai massacre. If an Algerian man, regardless of religion, committed rape in this country, he would be subject to US law and our government wouldn’t repatriate him, but he is in the US now, right? Larry Johnson, you know more about this, but it is my understanding covert agents do not have anmunity in other countries. Is this correct? Countries which don’t allow capital punishment will not extradite anyone accused of capital crime to the US without the assurance they will not be excuted, but we can’t use that argument against Algerian law, can we?

I say no to mandatory sentencing simply because there will always be cases where the mandatory sentence is completely out of proportion with the crime committed. Like when an 18 yo boy is convicted of “rape” for having sex with his high school 17 yo gf and on top of that gets in the sex offender database for the rest of his life.

In Turkey, people ‘on the street’ are very rarely threatened with guns. Compare that to what happens in the US. It’s funny to speak of ‘human rights’ when we live in a country that is so violent on a day-to-day basis.

Women are raped in this country everyday. Some people still blame the victim because of the way she dresses or being alone with a man, a careless but innocent choice. The post up thread re honor killings ignores the thousands of women murdered every year by boyfriends, husbands or strangers. Disrespect and violence against women is not a “Muslim” thing. It is universal. The law imprisions a man for a few years, but the woman is scarred or dead forever.

Please google up Turkey and terrorist recruitment. Places like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Yemen are subject to scrutiny. Turkey, not so much.

whatever. and frankly, it depends on what part of the country you’re in. i’ll agree that a lot of the big (and not so big) cities on the coasts are crime-filled cesspools, but that has nothing to do with the religion of the inhabitants or the number of guns owned. out here in Rapid City, SD there is almost no gun crime, and yet most people are christian and have lots of guns. as i mentioned, there is a *consistent trend* within muslim countires – no human rights, no (or next to no) democracy, religious freedom, women’s rights, gay rights, etc. it’s the general rule i’m concerned with, not the exceptions.

if there weren’t 4 male witnesses, it didn’t happen. read your quran.

“At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.” Deuteronomy 17:6. Read your Bible.

heck, if anything, the women will be blamed, disgraced, and executed.

“If a man accuses his wife but has no witnesses except himself, he shall swear four times by God that his charge is true, calling down upon himself the curse of God if he is lying. But if his wife swears four times by God that his charge is false and calls down His curse upon herself if it be true, she shall receive no punishment.” Sura 24.6

But we’re talking about Algeria here, which has a western-style system of laws — not sharia. Algeria, where the government banned religiously-affiliated political parties in its long and ultimately successful struggle against Islamic extremists. Read your newspaper.

the quran doesn’t say anything about allowing video/sound recorded evidence

Neither does the Bible. Read something, for Pete’s sake.

yes, bad things happen to women here in america, but usually, we can all agree that they are bad things. if a man kills his girlfriend/wife here, because (he believes) she cheated on him; nobody is going to support the guy and say he did the right thing. we are all going to say that he is a criminal and should be put away for a good long time. that’s not the case in muslim countries, and this is an indication IMO of some extremely messed up values.

You are missing an important element here. For more than a thousand years, the Muslim religion has repressed women and it’s part of the culture, but isn’t true of all Arab countries. Our country, as has been pointed out many times, is a Judeo-Christian country. It should not be part of our society, yet it is and has been from the beginning. If a woman in an Arab country is required by Muslim Law to wear a burka, we blame the law. In American, if a woman is in an abusive relationship and is killed, we ask why she didn’t leave which is a valid question unless it implies it is somehow her fault instead of why she didn’t have more choices.

name one muslim country that has anything remotely approaching western stardards of human rights, especially in the area of ciminal justice and law enforcement?

Indonesia, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria, and Kuwait all fit comfortably within your definition of having “anything remotely approaching western standards.” Elected representatives, secular codes of law, multi-party political systems, tolerance for religious minorities, etc. Nowhere near enough for your or me, but more than you’re aware of.

why do you think we send suspected terrorists back to muslim countries for a little extra-rigorous interrogation?

Unfortunately, torture is another area where some Muslim-majority countries approach U.S. standards — at least, Bush-Cheney-Rumsfield standards. And that makes an important point you hadn’t grasped: a government doesn’t have to be Muslim to abuse people. That’s how the strictly-secular Turkish government can have a bad human-rights record that can’t be blamed on Islam. Present-day Zimbabwe and North Korea; 1980s South Africa, 1960s Mississippi — none of those are/were Muslim societies. Russia is nominally Christian, and the government’s critics get assassinated not just at home but abroad, as well.

i know the bible pretty well, my friend. i am an atheist and i certainly wouldn’t defend the bible or use it to justify *anything.* jeezus christ. heh.

not to get into too much of a quranical debate here, but your translation of surah 24: 6-8 is not entirely correct; it actually says that the man’s testimony (if he has no witnesses) will be taken as 4 testimonies, if he is “among the truthtellers.” it does say that the woman may swear 4 times that he is lying and call down god’s curse to avert the punishment.

however, it also says in 24:13 “Why did they not produce four witnesses (referring to “slanderers”). since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of god.”

now, my understanding of the bible and it’s application in christian countries, is that it really doesn’t matter what the bible says; it matters what the powers-that-be say it says, and what thay claim is important. i’m sure the same applies in islamic countries. therefore that “four witnesses” passage could come in pretty handy for those who want to blame a rape on the woman.

In Turkey, people ‘on the street’ are very rarely threatened with guns. Compare that to what happens in the US. It’s funny to speak of ‘human rights’ when we live in a country that is so violent on a day-to-day basis.

The U.S. is far from the most violent country.
Please check the link below to see where we fare compared to 63 other countries:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

(The U.S. ranks 24th in murders per capita; could be better, but could be a lot worse)

Larry Johnson, you know more about this, but it is my understanding covert agents do not have anmunity in other countries.

I’d like to hear Larry’s thoughts on “extraordinary rendition,” which was the U.S. government’s euphemism for illegal kidnappings conducted by U.S. agents in other sovereign countries — sometimes for the purpose of taking the victims to third-world countries for torture under CIA supervision.

Both Italy and Germany are attempting to prosecute CIA agents for such crimes committed within their own borders against their own citizens. The U.S. has refused to cooperate.

name *one* arab country in which women have truly equal rights??? ok, women don’t have completely equal rights here in the US, but we are a lot closer than any muslim country. it doesn’t help anything to deny what is patently obvious.

and *some* people may blame the woman (or whoever is being abused or raped, or whatever), but i doubt that too many of them are on this board.

it is my understanding covert agents do not have anmunity

They get imnesty, not anmunity.

oh jeez; more strawmen. nobody said a government HAD to be muslim to abuse people. Please show me where i said that. yeah, right, i didn’t say it. if you had a case, you wouldn’t have to make stuff up.

and tell the truth, would you feel safer being wrongly arrested and accused of a crime in Algeria or in America? i’ll grant you that america’s justice system is a joke, but i’ll take it over any of the ones in the countries you mentioned.

and no, i haven’t missed the whole post 9-11 torture fiascos, but at least we can keep a straight face and claim that this has been something of an anomaly in our recent history, and now that Saint Obama has been elected, i’m sure it will be stopping. then you’ll have to find another reason to blame america first. i’m sure you won’t let us down.

name *one* arab country in which women have truly equal rights???

You just moved your own goalposts, friend.

it doesn’t help anything to deny what is patently obvious.

What you originally claimed was patently obvious was that no Muslim countries have anything remotely approaching western standards of civil society. That’s the only thing I denied in this conversation, and I think I did it pretty clearly.

and *some* people may blame the woman (or whoever is being abused or raped, or whatever), but i doubt that too many of them are on this board.

Whoa. That straw man came out of nowhere. You don’t take it very graciously when someone answers a question you thought they couldn’t.

I’m not accusing anyone here of having that point of view, NBNW. But, if those in communities such as nq don’t speak out, nothing will change and it’s important to remember the comments we have read in the last year from people who see nothing wrong with offensive comments. I’m not defending the abuse of women anywhere, but we can’t deny what happens here either. Many women feel raw and defensive after the acceptance of sexism in the media, but it has been more painful to realize some very intelligent don’t recognize how demeaning their words can be. Awareness is the first step in solving any problem.

I don’t disagree with you about the overall concern, but at that point I wouldn’t call the action you described as Rape. It isn’t rape.

If we are going to discuss areas where it isn’t rape, than my comment about mandatory sentences wouldn’t apply.

I’m specifically addressing the violence against women and girls which goes unaccounted for.

I find it appalling that some of the “crimes” like you described are called, “rape” when it wasn’t rape in the slightest sense of the word. In fact, I think it obscures the horror and violation that is rape.

For the love of God…the insane lefties blame America for everything with their self hate. Grow the hell up and STFU. I can’t WAIT until the big one hits us and these America haters demand that they are protected. The same America haters who do NOTHING but bash those who defend us and keep us safe. It’s like the brain dead left forgot 9/11. Oops, my bad, we’re giving the murderers a hall pass, free ride, and now they terrorists want apologies and reparations check. Who wants to bet that Pelosi will try to pass that bill too.

When the big one hits, and we catch the terrorists who murdered Americans, I guess the leftie freaks will have to make sure the Military provides the terrorists with down feather beds, tea and croissants, maid service in their cells and apologies from the Fraud for imprisoning them in the first place. Anything else would be Un-American.

What a bunch of unpatriotic people.

MNisRed,
Overall I agree with you because I believe it is up to a jury to determine each case, case by case. I didn’t generalize “believing in mandatory sentences” so that was my only objection to your interpretation.

there a few crimes, rape being one of them, that we haven’t sent a strong enough message that we are serious as a society about this violation. We put people away for far longer for far less offensive behavior and actions.

And as the post below yours led to, there are some “crimes” that shouldn’t be called ‘rape’. For instance, murder is one crime, manslaughter is another, and the gradation between premeditation and neglect gives room for a jury to weigh punishment.

If a person accidentally causes the death of another, I believe in penalty. But what if it is a father who accidently runs over their child. Isn’t the death enough of a penalty? It might be! But depending on how the previous patterns of care and attention mitigate the sentence, we cannot make a determination.

But nobody accidentally rapes someone. It is a deliberate violent act. And trust me I know a few people who admitted falsely accusing someone of rape, so I know there are gradations in the veracity of accusations. But we can deal with that in a separate way. I’m sick of the violence against women and children. I am willing to up the notch on penalties to stop at least a few of them. Some ‘date rape’ crimes would be different if the penalty was death, as an example. But if it is going to be a simple investigation, slap on the wrist, sex offender classes, and then back to the road, no thanks.

And to be clear, I respect your position tremendously. Don’t mistake me. Thanks for offering it.

your translation of surah 24: 6-8 is not entirely correct

How is it you are a Koranic scholar who excels at Arabic translation, yet you know so little about the Muslim world?

Just asking, ’cause you’re still being pretty cocky about subjects you don’t really seem to know as well as you claim.

“I can’t WAIT until the big one hits us”

And you call yourself patriotic?
You’d wish devastation on the US to prove a political point?

You’ve got a lot of nerve wishing for this so you can be righteous over your political opponents. And you say they hate America?

By the way — men kill women in this country for no reason at all — they don’t need to think “She cheated on him”.

The internet is an amazing beast.

The author above has before confessed to basing his views on anecdotal references. He reads angry comments from “arabs” online and then concludes that this is truly the voice of the Arab voice. Apparently doesn’t understand what “spotlight fallacy” or “biased sample fallacy” is. The loud voices represent the totality. And he’s never visited a single Arab country, per his own words.

Certainly you must appreciate the unabashed expertise this represents. And with the power of Google and Wikipedia, authors like this can endlessly fill in the blanks without having peer review study to make sure they know what they are talking about.

Granted, there may be an amateur interest in the subject, but forget getting any translation of the quran that can distinguish between actual passages and any sense of hermeneutic understanding. That would be asking too much.

Nor is there any distinction between Arabs in Lebanon vs Arabs in Qatar, as if there is just this monolithic group, Arabs that are all the same. Or the inability to distinguish between Palestinians and Hamas. To the author above, they are the same, no matter what you say.

The author claims some expertise in translation, but this doesn’t make him a scholar in religious dogma, hermeneutics or history. Gone from passages about infidels will be any references to Mohammed’s conflicts with the Meccans. Gone from that supposed translation is any reference to the position Mohammed had against the worship of idols. Nor is there any honest comparison between those passages that seem extreme and the extreme passages in Deuteronomy of the same vein, in Numbers, in Mark, in the writings of the Pauline doctrine.

I’d consider the source if I were you.
And thank you for asking pertinent questions on the expertise of the unapologetic anti-Arab above. Mind you though, he isn’t alone in the sentiment, only in the ‘expertise’.

Hard to answer your questions if I spend the whole time projecting my inner biases against you, right Red?

Welcome to the flock.

I like your name. Orhan Pamuk…..

Maybe he converted because he thought that in Muslim countries men get congratulated and the women get executed for reporting it.

His name is Andrew M. Warren, and he writes “algerian CIA-action thrillers.” Sick guy who can only have sex with sleeping/comatose women, like ol’ Ted Bundy. He is also black.

Comment by oldlawyer | 2009-01-29 11:02:45

His name is Andrew M. Warren, and he writes “algerian CIA-action thrillers.” Sick guy who can only have sex with sleeping/comatose women, like ol’ Ted Bundy. He is also black.

Would you have said “he is also white”? What does the also suggest? Being sick?

Rapists are dirty scum. Full stop. Also remember this man has not been tried yet. This is alleged and therefore he is innocent until proven guilty.

Barring a stunning coincidence, this Andrew Warren must be the author of “The People of the Veil”, a spy thriller set in, well, Algeria.

I would emphasize the phrase “barring a stunning coincidence,” because such odd coincidences do occur in life. Anyway, here’s a link:

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/01/just-great-a-rapist-at-the-cia.html?cid=x

I would certainly help raise money for a plane ticket to send the POS back over there.

What you posted about Arabs is equally true about Hispanics. There seems to be a mindset among certain people in this country that EVERYone of a certain “type” are “all the same”.
Try explaining the differences between Hispanics of Mexican origin from Hispanics of Cuban or Dominican or Puerto Rican origin to those of this mindset and you’ll see looks of boredom (if not sets of glazed-over eyes) because they don’t really care–”but they’re all Latinos/Hispanics”. Cuban “refugees” are quickly welcomed by this government as “political” refugees, yet Salvadorans and Guatemalans (back in the Reagan 80s) were rounded up and declared “economic” refugees who had to be deported. (Of course, the reality was that the Cubans–whose standard of living was little better than their Central American counterparts–were “fleeing” an authoritarian Communist regime. The Guatemalans and Salvadorans were fleeing authoritarian right-wing regimes. And, the Cubans suffered more because the US had no “trade” arrangements with Cuba. For Guatemalans and Salvadorans, their suffering was brought on for daring to speak out against their leaders who would engage in all sorts of bribery and corruption. The Religious Right were so fond of condemning Cuba for not allowing religious freedom, but when nuns were raped or priests were executed in “free” countries like El Salvador and Guatemala, there was little-to-no criticism of that country’s military and political leaders. No, the condemnation was mainly targeted at the people for getting “mixed up” with the “wrong types” of religious people.)

Let’s see. Lebanon, if memory serves, offers equality to women. Syria does as well. Oh, and (until Bush’s little invasion), Iraq. Maybe you read some of the horrors that Iraqi women described about how THEIR rights have degraded since Saddam was toppled. Did they live in fear before then? Well, sure. Women in this country ALSO live in fear, especially with regards to rape and sexual assault. I’m not as certain about Libya since the government there so tightly controls the media, both incoming AND outgoing.
BUT, you might want to remember that women in the “western world” were utterly dominated by their men until the last 100-150 years. And, there are many places in the “western world” where women are still treated very poorly.
You also seemed to change horses in midstream with the switch from “Arab” country to “Muslim” country. Turkey (a non-Arab, but Muslim country) has elected women to the office of Prime Minister and women have held key posts in the Turkish Parliament AND Turkish cabinet. Bangladesh (another non-Arab, but Muslim country) has women in key leadership roles in many political parties, and a woman has made it to the office of Prime Minister there as well.
You might want to consider that it was illegal for women in SWITZERLAND to vote until the end of the 1960s (and, in some cantons, they didn’t gain the vote until the mid-1970s). SWITZERLAND, for crying out loud! The Japanese Diet has had to consider proposals to allow for the possibility of a woman ascending to the throne as the Current Crown Prince (presumed heir to the throne) has only a *gasp* daughter (as the Crown Prince will turn 49 at the end of February and the Crown Princess is 45, the chances of their having a son is highly unlikely). Of course, since the Crown Prince’s younger brother’s wife bore a son a couple of years ago, it seems likely that no woman will ascend to the Throne of Japan for another generation, at the very least, ereby allowing the men of WESTERN-oriented Japan to breathe a sigh of relief. Japan, incidentally, is another of those “Western” countries which SAY one thing about women’s rights and their being equal to men, but make it very hard for women to actually achieve full equality (tradition is used THERE, just as in “Arab” or “Muslim” countries, as an excuse).
Then, of course, consider some CHRISTIAN denominations which DENY women as being equals to men (again, based on “tradtion”), even in THIS country. The Roman Catholic Church forbids women from serving as priests and many Episcopalian Churches remain adamant in prohibiting female priests. The Southern Baptist Convention (the nation’s largest Protestant branch) took a formal stance within the past decade to reaffirm centuries-old gender-based discriminatory tradition in refusing to recognize female ministers and, more disturbingly, upholding policy by which women should “be submissive” to their husbands (and fathers) in ALL matters. Imagine the effect of a “traditionalist” Southern Baptist becoming
Presidnet of this country. Every year, there’s a call for electing “traditional Christians” to political office. Why should this be any less disturbing than watching “traditional” Muslims being part of governments in the Middle East?

uh, TT, you never did explain how there are all these peace/america/isreal loving arabs in the world but none of them have access to the internet, or for some reason choose not to post anything there. seriously, what would explain that?

secondly, as i mentioned i have studied the history of the big 3 religions quite a bit; i’m sorry if you disagree with my opinions, but i am not ignorant.

and btw, when i said i was anti-arab, i’m afraid i should have said that i was as anti-arab as you are anti-semitic. i guess i need to speak the language of the leftist “the exception IS the rule” types in order for you to understand. i am opposed to actions and behaviors, just as you presumably are. is that clear?