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Hormuz, Tonkin, and Current Intelligence

Gulf Shenanigans: No Laughing Matter
By Ray McGovern

When the Tonkin Gulf incident took place in early August 1964, I was a journeyman CIA analyst in what Condoleezza Rice refers to as “the bowels of the agency.” As current intelligence referent for Russian policy toward Southeast Asia and China, I worked very closely with those responsible for analysis of Vietnam and China.

Out of that experience I must say that, as much as one might be tempted to laugh at the bizarre antics of Sunday’s incident involving small Iranian boats and US naval ships in the Strait of Hormuz, this is—as my old Russian professor used to say—nothing to laugh.

The situation is so reminiscent of what happened—and didn’t happen—from Aug 2-4, 1964 in the Gulf of Tonkin and in Washington, it is in no way funny. At the time, the US had about 16,000 troops in South Vietnam. The war that was “justified” by the Tonkin Gulf resolution of Aug. 7, 1964 led to a buildup to 535,000 US troops in the late Sixties, 58,000 of whom were killed—not to mention the estimated two million Vietnamese who lost their lives by then and in the ensuing ten years.

Ten years. How can our president speak so glibly about ten more years of a U.S. armed presence in Iraq? Wonder why he doesn’t know anything about Vietnam.

Intelligence Lessons From Vietnam and Iraq

What follows is written primarily for honest intelligence analysts and managers still on “active duty.” The issuance of the recent National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) on Iran was particularly welcome to those of us who had been hoping there were enough of you left who had not been thoroughly corrupted by former CIA Director George Tenet and his flock of malleable managers.

We are not so much surprised at the integrity of Tom Fingar, who is in charge of national intelligence analysis. He showed his mettle in manfully resisting forgeries and fairy tales about Saddam Hussein’s “weapons of mass destruction.” What is, frankly, a happy surprise is the fact that he and other non-ideologues and non-careerist professionals have been able to prevail and speak truth to power on such dicey issues as Iran-nuclear, the upsurge in terrorism caused by the US invasion of Iraq, and the year-old NIE saying Iraq is headed for hell in a hand basket (with no hint that a “surge” could make a difference).

But those are the NIEs. They share the status of “supreme genre” of analytic product with the President’s Daily Brief and other vehicles for current intelligence, the field in which I labored, first in the analytic trenches and then as a briefer at the White House, for most of my 27-year career. True, the NIE “Iraq’s Continuing Program for Weapons of Mass Destruction” of Oct. 1, 2002 (wrong on every major count) greased the skids for the attack on Iraq on March 19, 2003. But it is more often current intelligence that is fixed upon to get the country into war.

The Tonkin Gulf events are perhaps the best case in point. We retired professionals are hopeful that Fingar can ensure integrity in the current intelligence process as well as in intelligence estimates.

Salivating for Wider War: Tonkin Gulf

Given the confusion last Sunday in the Persian Gulf, you need to remember that a “known known” in the form of a non-event has already been used to sell a major war—Vietnam. It is not only in retrospect that we know that no attack occurred that night.

Those of us in intelligence, not to mention President Lyndon Johnson, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, and national security adviser, McGeorge Bundy all knew full well that the evidence of any armed attack on the evening of Aug. 4, 1964, the so-called “second” Tonkin Gulf incident, was highly dubious. But it fit the president’s purposes, so they lent a hand to facilitate escalation of the war.

During the summer of 1964 President Johnson and the Joint Chiefs of Staff were eager to widen the war in Vietnam. They stepped up sabotage and hit-and-run attacks on the coast of North Vietnam. Defense Secretary Robert McNamara later admitted that he and other senior leaders had concluded that the seaborne attacks “amounted to little more than pinpricks” and “were essentially worthless,” but they continued.

Concurrently, the National Security Agency was ordered to collect signals intelligence from the North Vietnamese coast on the Gulf of Tonkin, and the surprise coastal attacks were seen as a helpful way to get the North Vietnamese to turn on their coastal radars. The destroyer USS Maddox, carrying electronic spying gear, was authorized to approach as close as eight miles from the coast and four miles from offshore islands, some of which had been subjected to intense shelling by clandestine attack boats.

As James Bamford describes it in “Body of Secrets:”

“The twin missions of the Maddox were in a sense symbiotic. The vessel’s primary purpose was to act as a seagoing provocateur—to poke its sharp gray bow and the American flag as close to the belly of North Vietnam as possible, in effect shoving its 5-inch cannons up the nose of the Communist navy. In turn, this provocation would give the shore batteries an excuse to turn on as many coastal defense radars, fire control systems, and communications channels as possible, which could then be captured by the men…at the radar screens. The more provocation, the more signals…

“The Maddox’ mission was made even more provocative by being timed to coincide with commando raids, creating the impression that the Maddox was directing those missions and possibly even lobbing firepower in their support….

“North Vietnam also claimed at least a twelve-mile limit and viewed the Maddox as a trespassing ship deep within its territorial waters.”
(pp 295-296)

On Aug. 2, 1964 an intercepted message ordered North Vietnamese torpedo boats to attack the Maddox. The destroyer was alerted and raced out to sea beyond reach of the torpedoes, three of which were fired in vain at the destroyer’s stern. The Maddox’ captain suggested that the rest of his mission be called off, but the Pentagon refused. And still more commando raids were launched on Aug. 3, shelling for the first time targets on the mainland, not just the offshore islands.

Early on Aug. 4, the Maddox captain cabled his superiors that the North Vietnamese believed his patrol was directly involved with the commando raids and shelling. That evening at 7:15 (Vietnam time) the Pentagon alerted the Maddox to intercepted messages indicating that another attack by patrol boats was imminent.

What followed was panic and confusion. There was a score of reports of torpedo and other hostile attacks, but no damage and growing uncertainty as to whether any attack actually took place. McNamara was told that “freak radar echoes” were misinterpreted by “young fellows” manning the sonar, who were “apt to say any noise is a torpedo.”

This did not prevent McNamara from testifying to Congress two days later that there was “unequivocal proof” of a new attack. And based largely on that, on the following day (Aug. 7) Congress passed the Tonkin Gulf resolution bringing ten more years of war.

Meanwhile, in the Trenches

By the afternoon of Aug. 4 (Washington time), the CIA’s expert analyst on North Vietnam (let’s call him “Tom”) had concluded that probably no one had fired on US ships in the Tonkin Gulf over the past 24 hours. He included a paragraph to that effect in the item he wrote for the Current Intelligence Bulletin, which would be wired to the White House and other key agencies and appear in print the next morning.

And then something unique happened. The Director of the Office of Current Intelligence, a very senior officer whom Tom had never before seen, descended into the bowels of the agency to order the paragraph deleted. He explained:

“We’re not going to tell LBJ that now. He has already decided to bomb North Vietnam. We have to keep our lines open to the White House.”

“Tom” later bemoaned—quite rightly: “What do we need lines open for, if we’re not going to use them, and use them to tell the truth?”

A year or two ago, in the wake of the policy/intelligence fiasco on Iraq, I would have been inclined to comment sarcastically, “How quaint; how obsolete.” But the good news is that the analysts writing the National Intelligence Estimates have now reverted to the ethos in which “Tom” and I were proud to work.

Today’s analysts/reporters of current intelligence need to follow their good example. And we trust that Tom Fingar will hold their feet to the fire. For if they don’t rise to the challenge, the consequences are sure to be disastrous. This should be obvious in the wake of the Tonkin Gulf experience, not to mention the more recent performance of senior officials before the attack on Iraq in 2003.

The late Ray S. Cline, who at the time was the boss of the Director of Current Intelligence, said he was “very sure” that no attack took place on Aug. 4. He suggested that McNamara had shown the president unevaluated signals intelligence which referred to the (real) earlier attack on Aug. 2 rather than the non-event on the 4th. There was no sign of remorse on Cline’s part that he didn’t step in and make sure the president was told the truth.

We in the trenches knew there was no attack; and so did the Director of Current Intelligence as well as Cline, who was Deputy Director for Intelligence. But all knew, as did McNamara, that President Johnson was lusting for a pretext to strike the North and escalate the war. And so, like B’rer Rabbit, they didn’t say nothin’.

Commenting on the interface of intelligence and policy on Vietnam, a well respected, retired senior CIA officer addressed:

“… the dilemma CIA directors and senior intelligence professionals face in cases when they know that unvarnished intelligence judgments will not be welcomed by the President, his policy managers, and his political advisers…[They] must decide whether to tell it like it is (and so risk losing their place at the President’s advisory table), or to go with the flow of existing policy by accentuating the positive (thus preserving their access and potential influence). In these episodes from the Vietnam era, we have seen that senior CIA officers more often than not tended toward the latter approach.”
“CIA and the Vietnam Policymakers: Three Episodes, 1962-1968” Harold P. Ford

Bummer. I wish there were more of a sense of anger at that.

Back to Iran. This time, we all know that the president and vice president are seeking an excuse to attack Iran. There is a big difference from the situation in the summer of 1964, when President Johnson had intimidated all his senior subordinates into using deceit to escalate the war. Bamford comments on the disingenuousness of Robert McNamara when he testified in 1968 that it was “inconceivable” that senior officials, including the president, deliberately used the Tonkin Gulf events to generate Congressional support for a wider Vietnam war.

In Bamford’s words, the Joint Chiefs of Staff had become “a sewer of deceit,” with Operation Northwoods and other unconscionable escapades to its credit. Then-Under Secretary of State George Ball commented, “There was a feeling that if the destroyer got into some trouble, that this would provide the provocation we needed.”

Good News: It’s Different Now

As indicated above, we now have more integrity at the top of the intelligence community. But, in my view, the main thing that has prevented Bush and Cheney from attacking Iran so far has been the strong opposition of the uniformed military, including the Joint Chiefs. The circumstances attending the misadventure last Sunday in the Strait of Hormuz are far from clear. But the incident certainly shows that our senior military need all the help they can get from intelligence officers more concerned with the truth than with “keeping lines open to the White House” and doing its bidding.

In addition, today the intelligence oversight committees in Congress seem to be waking from their Rip Van Winkle-like slumber. It was Congress, after all, that ordered the controversial NIE on Iran/nuclear (and was among those pushing strongly that it be publicized). And the flow of substantive intelligence to Congress is much larger than it was in 1964 when, remember, there were no intelligence committees as such.

So listen, you inheritors of the honorable profession of current intelligence, don’t let them grind you down. If you’re working in the bowels of the agency and you find that your leaders are cooking intelligence to a recipe for casus belli, think long and hard about the oath you took to protect the Constitution of the United States “from all enemies, foreign and domestic.” Should not that oath transcend in importance any secrecy promise you had to agree to as a condition of employment?

By sticking your neck out, you might be able to prevent ten years of unnecessary war.

Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in Washington, DC. He was an Army infantry/intelligence officer, then a current intelligence analyst at CIA, and is now on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

This article appeared first on Consortiumnews.com.

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  • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

    So listen, you inheritors of the honorable profession of current intelligence, don’t let them grind you down. If you’re working in the bowels of the agency and you find that your leaders are cooking intelligence to a recipe for casus belli, think long and hard about the oath you took to protect the Constitution of the United States “from all enemies, foreign and domestic.” Should not that oath transcend in importance any secrecy promise you had to agree to as a condition of employment?

    By sticking your neck out, you might be able to prevent ten years of unnecessary war.

    This is certainly the ideal. My concern is the reality of what has happened to the truthtellers and whistleblowers in the Bush administration. Not just experienced generals who go before Congress and say Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz are full of crap with their pie-in-the-sky predictions about Iraq, but whistleblowers within the agencies that are tasked with conducting oversight. Look what happened to Bunny Greenhouse. Good Americans get disappeared by the Bush mob all the time.

    And then there are those in the intelligence agencies. Brassem Youssef is the most recent example of someone who’s told the truth in an effort to get the FBI to stop violating our civil liberties. The retaliations he’s suffered are par for the course with the Bush mob.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18028499

    So, while I yearn for the day when government employees won’t be afraid for their lives or their livelihoods, let’s just say I have a “wait and see” attitude.

    • shirin

      With genuine respect to you, surely you do not believe that it is only from the Bush mob that truthtellers and whistleblowers are disappeared and meet with other sorts of bad fates!

      Let’s not indulge in the dangerous myth that all was lovely and rosy and honest prior to GWB.

      • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

        Shirin – I’m not naive enough to believe that only the Bush administration has retaliated against whistleblowers. After all, even the rendition policy was not born with GWB. But the last seven years have been the epitome of a thousand paper cuts (and then some) by one truly nutty group of authoritarians in a time of great change in our global outlook and behavior. There seems to be a new constitutional violation every day! It’s become overwhelming. It’s hard to keep up with all the criminality.

        I don’t recall our relationship to the rest of the world ever being as compromised. We lived through Nixon, and we lived through Reagan (although I’m still not sure how we survived that one). I don’t think the dangers to American citizens have ever been greater in the last 40 years than they are right now.

        Maybe it’s because of the internet and proliferation in the publishing industry that we know about more whistleblowers. Whatever the catalyst for information getting out there, we need to help protect these truthtellers.

        • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

          And when I say, “I don’t think the dangers to American citizens have ever been greater in the last 40 years than they are right now”, I do mean the dangers from our own government being waged against us.

          • shirin

            I was sure you understood the situation as it has been and as it is now. Thanks for confirming that.

            I am not sure whether the difference now is that the current regime is so much worse, or that information access and communication is so much better.

            As regards the U.S. relationship with the rest of the world, I must whole-heartedly agree. When abroad now I really hate displaying my U.S. passport whereas before, it has never been a matter of either pride or shame, but simply a document that got me into and out of places I wanted to go.

            • Centrocitta

              …..When abroad now I really hate displaying my U.S. passport whereas before, it has never been a matter of either pride or shame, but simply a document that got me into and out of places I wanted to go…..

              Sometimes I think I may have been born with pre-cognition. I had my Italian citizenship recognized in May 2001, had the passport in hand in November and was living in Italy in December of the same year. This was a good 22 months before Colin Powell made his phoney speach to the UN and put up pictures of a phoney Jordanian “terrorist” named al-Zarqawi operating in Iraq. And, as we should all know, Italy doesn’t take kindly to it’s citizens disappearing no matter where they reside — even as far back as 20 or 30 years ago — and is now trying to prosecute those responsible for the disappearance and/or murder of Italians who were opposed to CIA installed military dictators in South America.

          • TeakWoodKite

            Your not supposed keep up. It is such blur and the fun part is this administration is “in your face” about it~! Tick tick tick tick Soon…..

            There seems to be a new constitutional violation every day! It’s become overwhelming. It’s hard to keep up with all the criminality.

            • shirin

              What is hard to keep up with is that they keep getting away with it! I mean, it was easy to get why the likes of Saddam got away with it – that’s the point of a dictatorship – but in a country that is supposed to be governed by the rule of law…

              And that’s why, when a certain type of American smirkingly asks me if I’d rather live in a dictatorship, I just smirk right back at them.

              • TeakWoodKite

                They would be the “low information” folks? The sad, dust devil truth of it is, we live in one and have for many years. That smirk will be wiped of the faces of “certain types” of Americans when they have everything they borrowed from the company store repo’ed.

                • shirin

                  I’m not sure that type of folks ever really get it.

                  I, for one, would rather live in a dictatorship where everyone knows the score than in a dictatorship that thinks it’s a democracy.

                  • Bill Keyes

                    From shirin…

                    “I, for one, would rather live in a dictatorship where everyone knows the score than in a dictatorship that thinks it’s a democracy.”

                    Thanks Shirin for saying what I have said to many people who are shocked that I would consider moving to another country in my case Alamos, Mexico where I spent 3 wonderful days two weeks ago and didn’t want to come back, but that is another story.

                    I might add that The American Dictatorship is an insult to all dictators who have come and gone.

      • Cee

        Let’s not indulge in the dangerous myth that all was lovely and rosy and honest prior to GWB.

        Exactly. I just watched Hillary trying to spin away our crimes in Iraq and her complicity.
        I haven’t forgotten that her husband knew that Iraq was defenseless after Hussein Kamal told all he knew. Clinton continued the sanctions and bombed that poor nation anyway.

        • shirin

          And did so with Hillary’s enthusiastic support. Obviously her heart is only in the human rights of certain carefully selected women and children, and Iraqi women and children do not happen to be among them. Her heart certainly was not in the human rights of acclaimed Iraqi artist, Layla Al Attar, whom her husband’s bombs killed when he bombed Baghdad to retaliate for an alleged plot on the part of Saddam Hussein to kill former president Bush (some of the evidence appears to have been misrepresented in order to make the case against Saddam, and overall the evidence was extremely thin to say the least). Did Hillary urge her husband to consider the harm that bombing a major city of millions would do to the women and children of that city? Did she caution him against the use of such deadly force on such a questionable pretext? I don’t recall whether there is any evidence one way or another for this deadly incident, but based on her strong support for his Iraq policies and actions it is likely that she also supported this bombing.

        • shirin

          Cee, as I am sure you know, the unrelenting push for regime change in Iraq did not begin with the current United States regime. It was also Bill Clinton’s policy. Disarmament was not the primary goal of the sanctions and the bombings, particularly after it became clear that Saddam had been, for all practical purposes, disarmed. In fact, I recall hearing at least one member of the Clinton administration (if memory serves, it was Madeleine Albright) stating clearly that the sanctions would not be lifted as long as Saddam remained in power.

          So, in fact, the Iraqi people – and especially the women and even more especially the children – were being collectively punished for the crime of being under the regime of a dictator the U.S. had decided it wanted gone, and that punishment took a form that former UN Humanitarian Denis Halliday and Hans von Sponek (both of whom resigned in disgust) have termed genocidal. And all because the United States government had decided that Saddam was no longer “our SOB”.

          There is no way of underestimating the horrific and permanent effect that eight years of sanctions and bombings and isolation had on millions and millions of Iraqi children. By the mid-’90′s an estimated half a million children under five years were dead as a direct result of the sanctions. Note that this was not the total number of children killed by the Bush/Clinton genocidal policy, but only the ones under five. An even larger number of children suffered permanent mental and physical impairment as a result of malnutrition. And this is only the beginning of a long litany of death and destruction that eight years of Clinton policy brought on Iraq.

          And Hillary Clinton fully supported her husband’s Iraq policies. So much for her heard when it comes to the human rights, or even the lives, of the women and children of Iraq.

          • jimbo

            All your mumbo jumbo about the Clintons will never diminish that GWB is a war criminal for his actions leading to the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, and the unnecessary deaths of almost 4000 of our precious troops. I will vote for any Democratic candidate who will as part of his/her platform present a plan to ship bush/cheney/minions to the Hague for trial, eventual conviction and hanging. Although, shipment to Gitmo would be a great alternative, to suffer the same torment they visited on so many others, including innocents. Get it?

            • shirin

              1. It is not mumbo jumbo, it is hard, cold, well-established fact.

              2. The fact that Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, and other members of his administration are war criminals does not in any way diminish the criminality of George W. Bush and his regime, nor is pointing out the criminal actions of Bill Clinton and his administration intended to diminish the criminality of the Bush regime.

              3. I hope you are not holding your breath waiting for a Democratic candidate who “will as part of his/her platform present a plan to ship bush/cheney/minions to the Hague for trial, eventual conviction and hanging”, ’cause your gonna suffocate yourself to death if you are.

              • jimbo

                More gobblegook. Divert attention if you can, bush has inflicted the damage and he needs to pay. Period.

                • shirin

                  Come on! We are not in disagreement here, and that should be clear to you.

                  Yes, Bush has inflicted damage.

                  Yes, he and members of his regime have to pay. Whether they will or not is another question. They won’t.

                  And yes, Bill Clinton is also a war criminal and should pay for his crimes too, and yes, Hillary Clinton supported and encouraged him in the commission of his crimes in Iraq, and that should be taken into consideration.

                  But if facts you don’t care to acknowledge are mumbo jumbo and gobbledygook, then there is no hope of having a coherent communication with you.

                  • jimbo

                    You are trying to inject your agenda, rather than dealing with the topic at hand. If you want to smear a Democrat, there are plenty of websites that do that for a living. I’m not advocating for Clinton or any other Democrat. I’m just saying you introducing your agenda is crap and doesn’t belong in the context of the original article.

                    • shirin

                      I am injecting nothing here. I am merely pointing out the scope of the problem, which did not begin and will not end with George W. Bush. You overlook or deny that fact at your peril, at the peril of this country, and at the peril of the world.

                      I am not smearing anyone any more than you are smearing George W. Bush – unless you consider it smearing to point out real, pertinent, and critical facts and realities.

                      George W. Bush is a criminal, and so are many members of his regime. He (and Dick Cheney) should have been, and still should be impeached, and subsequently prosecuted for their international and domestic crimes. But George W. Bush and his regime are not the problem, they are rather the most critical symptoms seen thus far of a systemic problem that is of long standing, and very widespread.

                      Treat the symptoms certainly, but if you ignore the illness the afflicted patient will die just as certainly as if the symptoms are left alone to do their damage.

                      Now that I think about it, maybe you are right. Maybe I AM injecting my agenda, which is to get people to stop ignoring the deadly systemic problem by pretending the current set of debilitating symptoms are the whole story.

                    • jimbo

                      Shirin:”I’m not injecting….”
                      I don’t know if comments will nest below the previous level or not, but to single out the Clintons while ignoring reagan and bush criminal acts is complete bushwa. You are a concern troll, a little more sophisticated than most, but with the same goals. While not clear what your goal is, it is destructive and dishonest.

                    • shirin

                      Bullshit on all counts.

                      It’s always interesting how you guys drag out the “troll” accusation as a last resort once you realize you are completely out of gas on the substance. Wouldn’t it be easier just to say “Ok, I see where you are coming from” followed by a) but I disagree, b) and I think you are full of crap, c) but I wish you would shut up because you are muddying up my message, d) I wish you would shut up because I don’t want to be confused with facts, e) I wish you would shut up because it’s too complicated to look at the bigger picture, or f) I guess you have a point?

                      For your information, I “singled out” the Clintons because the policy of regime change in Iraq began in earnest with Bill Clinton’s administration, and also because there is a good chance we will see a Clinton back in the White House soon, and Iraq is a – if not THE – major issue.

                      I did not mention Reagan because he is irrelevant to the events of the last 15 years. He not only did not want to get rid of Saddam, he was having a love affair with the guy, and in fact helped him stay in power, as did Bush I prior to 1990.

                      I did not mention the Bush I administration, because it is not terribly relevant to our discussion. Bush I actually continued Reagan’s love affair with Saddam until 1990. Then, although he kinda sorta wanted to get rid of Saddam, he didn’t want to get rid of the regime, and in any case, he wasn’t really serious enough about getting rid of Saddam to take real steps to make it happen. And in any case we are not going to be dealing with any more Bushes, at least this time around.

                      There are just too many otherwise smart, aware, thinking people who have managed to convince themselves that Bush and/or the Republicans are the problem, and that once Bush is gone, and particularly if we can only get a Democrat in the WH, the United States will return to being that shining city on the hill that upholds the highest principles and practices. Unfortunately, it’s just not going to be that simple. None of the troubles the U.S. is seeing and is causing in the world now began with Bush, and none of them is going to automatically end when Bush is gone – not the lust for empire, not the use of torture, not the “black sites”, not the lying and deceiving to justify attacking other countries, and probably not even the eroding of the Constitution, and of freedoms and rights of citizens in this country.

                    • jimbo

                      Brilliant. You flap your lips like you have throughout this discussion and say absolutely nothing. bush’s lies and deception are solely responsible for the tragedy of Iraq. If you can tie the Clintons into bush’s responsibility then by all means give us some specifics. That is SPECIFICS. Mr. McGovern’s article discusses the Tonkin incident, and bush’s attempt at the same thing with Iran. How are the Clintons worthy of your contempt when there is no connection to the discussion?
                      You remind me of my best friend, a conservative pig from the deepest darkest depths. Why is he that way? Because that’s what he grew up with, and he has not progressed. He was an Air Force KC-135 driver, flew FACs in Vietnam, co-wrote a nuclear winter study read by Congress. He refuses to dicuss what informs his beliefs. He claims he can no longer read, so won’t put his arguments in reference to written words. When I asked him how he comes to his opinions, the says he “trusts” bush. He has faith in bush. What horseshit. I hope my friendship survives my disappointment in him.

                    • Cee

                      The tragedy in Iraq started before baby Bush. Flap your lips about that.

                    • Shirin

                      bush’s lies and deception are solely responsible for the tragedy of Iraq”

                      Either you are abysmally and inexcusably ignorant of the history of the U.S. involvement in Iraq, or you are pretending to be.

                    • Cee

                      The topic is a Democratic candidate who is trying to act like her foreign policy will be different from W’s.
                      It won’t be and partisans like you will be cheerleaders because she has a D after her name.
                      She also thinks that we have short memories or are stupid.

                    • jimbo

                      Partisans? I don’t have to be a partisan, and am not, except that no choices exist. Who are you, more of the unity crowd? I won’t vote for any candidate that will ignore the damage bush and his crowd have done and are doing. I hope to find a candidate who will take steps to undo as much of that damage as soon as possible, and to expend at least a portion of effort that was exerted against Clinton to try and convict bush and his gang. And maybe someday the right will pull its collective head out of its ass and present adequate candidates and a platform in line with the wants and needs of the American people, so I no longer have to be “partisan”. I voted Republican once, and will again when they can prove they are adequate to governing for all people in this country and in this world.

                    • shirin

                      I could not agree with you more on wanting a candidate that will do all those things. And as I said before, I hope you are not waiting to breathe until you see such a candidate, because it will be a cold day in hell before such a candidate comes along. That is the unfortunate reality.

                      To paraphrase whatsisname, we go into the voting booth with the candidates we have, not with the candidates we wish we had.

            • http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

              Sadly, you have no candidate. Not one is offering what you (and the rest of us) wish regarding final justice for bu$hler&Co.

              I’d vote for that person in a NY minute.

            • Bill Keyes

              From Jimbo..

              I will vote for any Democratic candidate who will as part of his/her platform present a plan to ship bush/cheney/minions to the Hague for trial, eventual conviction and hanging.

              I agree but maybe I have been asleep at the wheel because I haven’t heard the candidates say much about this issue. Of course maybe they would simply let them all head for the new Crawford ranch in Paraguay during that lame duck period next Nov-Jan.

              In fact what will any of the candidates do about any of the abuses committed by the Bush/Cheney cabal?

              It seems that they are all more concerned with the usual every 4 year mudslinging that has just gotten started and most of the daily reporting is like a couple of high school girls going at the she said what/he said what
              bickering. and to think we still have another
              10 months of this useless bullshit.

              I am beginning to believe no one either Dem or Rep will change anything and business will go on as usual.

          • shirin

            Correction:

            “former UN Humanitarian Coordinators Denis Halliday and Hans von Sponek”.

            I have had the honour of spending time one-on-one with Denis Halliday back in the ’90′s (after I dramatically “rescued” him from a group of over-zealous activists by driving my car onto a pedestrian plaza, leaving the motor running, rushing him into the car while elbowing hordes of activists out of the way, and speeding off down the street – LOL!). During the hour or so drive to his hotel I got to know him on a more personal level, and to hear some stories of his Iraq experience that normally would not make it into his speeches or writings on the subject. That only increased the depth and strength of my respect for him. He is truly a remarkable human being.

            • Cee

              Seriously? I love your spunk!!

              • shirin

                LOL! Well, he was on a speaking tour for the anti-sanctions campaign (that night was also the first time I listened to and met Scott Ritter), it was late, he was clearly exhausted, and there were some really relentlessly thoughtless activists in the group who kept hounding him and hounding him and trying to get him to do one more media interview, would not let him get out of there, go to his hotel, and rest before the next grueling day. And he was very polite, and very dedicated to fighting against the sanctions, and I think felt obligated to do everything he could to get the word out, and would not stick up for himself and just say “no more, I have to leave now”, so I just went up, grabbed his portfolio out of his hands, took him by the elbow, and said “Denis has to go now”, and walked him rapidly to the waiting car.

                I’m not kidding you when I say that I almost had to slam the car door on the hands of one of those jerky activists, and they kept trying to talk to him through the closed window and walked a few steps after us as we drove off. It WAS pretty overly dramatic – almost like helping a rock star make a getaway. I laugh whenever I think about it.

  • CK

    Slightly offtopic, On Formosa they just held an election, the pro-American party was soundly defeated, the pro PRC party won a smashing victory.
    While the americans diddle their resources and wealth away, the Chinese have won yet another round in the intelligence and diplomacy battles.
    While the USA loses face and power everywhere from Patagonia to the arctic circle, Hu and Wen quietly and efficiently outwit outlast and outplay.

    • Brenda Stewart

      amen to this

      • CK

        Ah the fun of watching masterful diplomacy in action.
        1) India and China sign accords
        2) Another nation declares that there is only one China and formosa isn’t it.
        3) Yet Another nation moving toward that attitude with a shift in government. Marshall Islands home of Bikini atoll has elected the non US party to rule.
        4) China is signing a REAL free trade pact with Costa Rica ( a wee snub of the ol USA there )
        5) China has informed the USA that China will not take kindly to USA meddling with the results of the formosa election.

  • Sidney O. Smith III

    Sam Adams book, War on Numbers, details the “interface” between policy and CIA intelligence re: estimate of VC in Vietnam. Same theme.

  • Simon

    I think you give Bush and Cheney far far far too much credit, making them seem uber monsters who simply cannot be defeated.

    That is the deliberate spin, to create an atmosphere of menace and fear, truth is, they’re stupid, despite the damage they do.

    Every single political project they have instigated, from the war, to Cheney’s energy policies, has failed, or is in the process of failing, like a man with a useless liver, awaiting a transplant that will never arrive. The reason is a lack of intellect, they simply are not smart enough to pull off much more than a simplistic shock and awe. After the initial noise, it all falls apart, while Cheney steals, in the words of John Fogerty, ” everything we got.”

    They are the gang that can’t shoot straight. Don’t buy into the meme they are evil — they are inept, trying to appear evil, frightened adolescent boys, you know the type. It’s a press move.

    Treat them as the idiot tools they appear to be, they understand THAT…

    • http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

      If not evil, abuse of power in order to raid the public coffers is fairly venal, Simon.

      These “stupid” people with their simplistic shock-n-awe ARE stealing everything we got.

      Stealing it all IS their objective, so the outcomes of their political “projects” used as cover to steal don’t much matter to them. In fact, it seems like a competition to create the biggest no-bid money-pit clusterfuck ever conceived.

      So I don’t buy that they haphazardly dumb-lucked themselves into all the dough they’re siphoning off, and they started the CYA for their long con pre-Day One, by classifying everything they could. They’re quite clever on things having nothing to do with governing.

    • http://OUTRAGEDBUTNOTSURPRISED bama_barrron

      two points:

      even the inept can be evil … they are not mutually exclusive. thankfully, the ineptness mitigates the evilness but it doesnt eradicate the intent.

      every inept shock and awe action by the bush adminstration results in an opportunity loss to do the correct action. by this criterion alone, it is a success.

      • TeakWoodKite

        From Shirin up-post:

        stop ignoring the deadly systemic problem by pretending the current set of debilitating symptoms are the whole story.

        Taken with bama_barrons’ points, one can’t deny the coming fate of those not aware of stubborn facts. Agendas are transitive, facts are not.
        We may disagree on many things, but in the end who will answer for the consequences of the last 40 years?

        • shirin

          Most likely our kids and grandkids.

          • TeakWoodKite

            YUP!

            I did not mention Reagan because he is irrelevant to the events of the last 15 years

            Not according to the recent thread from Ray McGovern. That’s why I said 40.

            ABC 7 news reporting as I watch Bush might not be so fast to withdraw 30k troops.

            • shirin

              OK, irrelevant was an overstatement. However, it was not necessary to this discussion to recount the entire history of U.S. involvement with Saddam Hussein.

              • TeakWoodKite

                :)

  • J

    Larry, Susan,

    seems that our errant frat rat dubya has ‘promised’ netanyahu a unilateral nuclear bombing of iran. time for mike mullen to exercise his constitutional authority as cjcs and arrest and stick bush in a rubber room where he can’t hurt anybody any more.

    see:
    http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org:80/?Page=Article&ID=9104
    Israel’s Netanyahu Claims President Bush Promised Unilateral Nuclear Bomb Attack Against Iran

    • Cee

      I guess Bibi reminded him of a few things.

      Immediately after the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: “It’s very good… Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)”.

      “Evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.”

      - U.S. official
      quoted in Carl Cameron’s Fox News report
      on the Israeli spy ring and its connections to 9-11.

      2001: FBI Discovers ‘Massive’ Israeli Spy Operation Inside US

      August 23, 2001: Mossad Reportedly Gives CIA List of Terrorist Living in US; at Least Four 9/11 Hijackers Named According to German newspapers, the Mossad gives the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US and say that they appear to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future. It is unknown if these are the 19 9/11 hijackers or if the number is a coincidence. However, four names on the list are known, and these four will be 9/11 hijackers: Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta.

      http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=mossad&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on

    • http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

      There’s no credible source cited for this story.

      “Wire Services” doesn’t quite cut it, and the story doesn’t appear in “Presscue” ‘s date-ordered archives.

      • J

        Olhippiechick,

        look at:
        http://presscue.com/node/38692

        they’re citing it having been on israeli radio interview.

        there are numerous cites about the netanhayu-bush ‘private meet’ where it originates from.
        http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/943735.html

        • http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

          Okay, J, yes.

          Funny: Netanyahu bullied his way into the meeting with bellicose claims of representing the Israeli people. He seems quite the obstructionist and naysayer to any type of peace process. Then HE claims bu$h “promised” him he’d nuke Iran.

          He sounds like a bullshitter just like bu$h, one who creates his own reality. You know this’ll be denied pronto, IF anyone ever even asks about it. Olbermann, Olbermann? Anyone?

          • J

            Olehippiechick,

            there have been ‘rumors’ that the reason that dubya made this specific trip to israel wasn’t for a mideast peace mission, but a review of the war cabal’s iran attack plans.

            cjcs mullen needs to in addition closing gitmo, collar dubya and cheney and stick them in rubber rooms before they hurt anybody else.

      • Cee

        Which story?

    • Kathleen

      They still have 12 months to do their dirty work. They’ve got the amendment to back it up. If Clinton or MCCain get in they have far more time to implement the PNAC plans

      • http://www.petgazette-pets.com OleHippieChick

        True.

        If Israel wants Iran nuked, they should do it themselves and suffer the karma. Why should the US be their beard. WhatTF are we, the cleanup woman?

        • J

          Olehippiechick,

          don’t you know, that we americans are israel’s throwaways. just ask rev. hagee. snarf.

  • Kathleen

    Thank you Ray McGovern it is folks like you and Larry Johnson that give a peasant the reasons to keep trying to be “vigilant”. What honorable advice to younger CIA analyst…”protect the constitution from foreign and “domestic” enemies”

    Justin Raimando had one of the first articles upabout the Hormuz event. The video clip is the one first released by the U.S. with the voice over lay that sounds like Borat speaking neocon…ese.
    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12176

    Anti-war’s Man of the Year Thomas Fingar
    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12088

    Cnn reports that the Iranians patrolling the Straits are Iranian Revolutionary Guard
    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/29/iran.navy/index.html?iref=newssearch

    We know what amendment turned the revolutionary guard into “terrorist” The Kyl Lieberman amendment, and we know who voted for it…Senator Clinton. Obama the “anti war candidate sat on the fence and did not vote on the amendment

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_6CB-3qj8Y

    This one of the first threads at Emptywheel’s (one of the best bloggers besides Larry and Susan in the blogosphere) Firedoglake website focused on the Straits of Hormuz event. As Ray said the stupidity of the incident could be funny if it were not so
    potentially fucking deadly.
    http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/01/09/are-we-faking-it-again/

  • Kathleen

    Ray folks like you and Larry give me hope. Although I am finally getting closer to one of my dreams which is to leave the country for a while.

    Cnn reported that the Iranians patrolling the Straits of Hormuz are Iranian National Guard

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/07/iran.us.navy
    /index.html?iref=mpstoryview

    We know which amendment turned the Iranian Guard into “terrorist”

    Anti war.com made Thomas Fingar there Man of the year
    http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=12088

  • Kathleen

    Was there a problem with those two links one to the CNN story about the Iranian people patrolling being members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and the other link to anti-war.com about them selecting Thomas Fingar as their “Man of the Year”

    Were those links inappropriate?

  • Cee

    I want people to think about this when we hear more about Iran doing things to us.

    According to Victor Ostrovsky, a defector from Israel’s secret service, Mossad, Israel decided to mount a false-flag operation designed to further discredit Libya, and provoke the US to attack an Arab nation. A transmitter loaded with pre-recorded messages was planted in Tripoli, Libya, by a Mossad team.
    The ‘Trojan Horse’ beamed out fake messages about Libyan-authored bombings and planned attacks that were immediately intercepted by US electronic monitoring.
    http://www.ericmargolis.com/archives/2001/02/murders_in_the.php

    Then ask yourself if you believe Daniel Pipes.

    For one thing, Thomas is hardly the first to tread this particular path. Prior books “exposing” the Mossad include the pseudo-insider Victor Ostrovsky’s duo, By Way of Deception and The Other Side of Deception, and the ravings of Ari Ben-Menashe, about whom Thomas accurately says that “few could tell a tale better.” Thomas praises each of these fantasists
    http://www.danielpipes.org/article/805

  • Retired

    Well, Ray, I’m afraid that you aren’t going to be invited to Rep. Hoekstra’s house any time too soon after this missive. Nice of you, though, to address it to those in harness at the moment. As you know, sometimes when you are young, “working in the bowels” (I wonder if Condi realizes how right she was) and facing a dilema, it feels like there is no one to turn to for the voice of experience. That is particularly true now since so much experience has bailed out due to such a long run of remarkably poor leadership.

  • Mr.Murder

    Sanctions didn’t have the near the impact that depleted uranium did.

    That had a bigger hand in child mortality numbers.

    • shirin

      Thanks for bringing up depleted uranium, Mr. Murder. Depleted uranium was a serious problem after 2000, and is an even more seriously problem now, since the Americans have used enormous amounts of it since 2003.

      Depleted uranium is not so much implicated as the main cause of child deaths during the sanctions as it is in a sharp increase in certain severe and rare types of birth defects, and a dramatic increase in certain types of cancers, especially in the south where most of the depleted uranium was deposited in the environment in 1990.

      The single greatest cause of deaths, especially in infants and children under five during the sanctions was, in fact, easily preventable, treatable, mainly water-borne diseases due to the destruction of water and sewage processing and transportation infrastructure, as well as the destruction of electrical infrastructure, which, of course, makes it impossible to treat and pump both water and sewage. The sanctions and import embargo made it impossible to import sufficient equipment and material to adequately repair and maintain this critical infrastructure after the initial repairs were made right after the war, which meant a steady deterioration. And even when the infrastructure was operational, the chemicals needed to treat water were not available due to the embargo.

      As a result, at the same time raw sewage was flowing into the rivers, and more and more of the population was forced to turn to the rivers and other contaminated sources for water. Add to that the fact that the import embargo lead to a severe shortage of medicines and facilities to treat either these easily treatable diseases or their symptoms.

      The affected children, also seriously weakened by chronic malnutrition, would typically die as a result of dehydration caused by diarrhea and in some cases also vomiting, uncontrolled because the medicines to control them were not available thanks to the embargo. In some cases kids would live for some time with chronic low-grade microbially-caused diarrhea because there were not antibiotics to treat them. Most of these children would become weaker and weaker, more and more malnourished and would eventually die, often of opportunistic secondary infections.

      In addition to the unavailability of medicines, medical supplies, and medical equipment, the sanitary conditions in hospitals and clinics deteriorated over time as the sanctions went on due to lack of availability of effective disinfectants, and even detergents for cleaning floors, bedding, and other surfaces. As a result of this, being hospitalized often meant going home with infections the patient did not have on arrival at the hospital.

      The greatest culprit in the lack of medicines, medical supplies (hypodermic needles, tongue depressors, gauze, medical tape, and on and on), medical equipment (heart-lung machines, X-ray machines, cat scanners, etc., etc., etc.) disinfectants, and even detergents was less the economic sanctions than the import embargo. These items were banned, restricted, and often delayed until the contracts expired.

    • Cee

      Honest to God. You’re going to make me weep!!!

      Do Americans realize they are also going to be the victims?

      • shirin

        Oh, but the price was worth it, you know.

        And that great advocate and hard worker for the sake of women and children, Hillary Clinton, fully supported the policies that caused all of this and more. And what was the true purpose of this policy? Regime change.

  • TeakWoodKite

    We have been warned.

    Iran’s actions threaten the security of nations everywhere,” he said. “So the United States is strengthening our longstanding security commitments with our friends in the gulf and rallying friends around the world to confront this danger before it is too late.”

    To late for who? Before or after the 20 billion dollar weapons sale to the house of Sa’ud?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/world/middleeast/14prexy.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

    • shirin

      GAWD! WHAT actions of Iran threaten anyone’s security? Iran isn’t doing ANYTHING to threaten ANYONE. It is the United States’ actions that threaten the security of nations everywhere.

      • TeakWoodKite

        Remarkable isn’t it? And we have a whole year of this to be set in motion. What is questionable is weather the arms sale are part of the larger effort. We give 30 billion to Israel, 20 billion the the Saudi’s. and the rest of the “friends” get what?

        • shirin

          What is WRONG with people? This is an even more clear and brazen lie than the WMD/bin Laden’s best pal lies they used to justify attacking Iraq! Anyone who pays attention can clearly see that Iran has not done anything and is not doing anything. Anyone who makes even a small effort can learn that Iran has no history at all of aggression. And yet, he can make these kinds of brazen statements and get away with it.

          The world has gone mad.

          • TeakWoodKite

            Sorry Shirin: That is not quite true. No ones hands are clean here. It a matter of degree and proxy.

            Iran has not done anything and is not doing anything

      • Retired

        Certainly the questions to ask are, “Who feels that their interests are being threatened by Iran? And what influence does that party (or parties) have on (or over) the United States?” The answers to those questions are the key to why the actions that we are taking and our explanations for taking them do not correlate.

        • shirin

          Israel is, of course, concerned that Iran is getting far too much regional power. I really don’t think any of the Arab countries is as worried about Israel as the propaganda suggests they are. Based on what I have heard from really knowledgeable people (as opposed to the self-appointed experts and talking heads the Bush regime sends out to clog up the media on the subject), there have been no problems between Iran and the Saudis. It looks to me as if Bush is having to bribe the Saudis in this matter, which would tend to confirm that.

          I don’t have any particular information, but the Gulf states are certainly do not seek to be military powers, and nothing I have heard tells me that they are frightened of Iran. So, I guess they will have to receive some kind of bribes also.

          But I really don’t think it is just Israel that is inducing this behaviour in the Bush regime. After all, Iran has been a target of theirs from the beginning, and if Iraq had gone according to their expectations, they would have moved on to Iran (and then to Syria, and who knows where else) a long time ago.

          Somebody please, please, please stop them!

        • TeakWoodKite

          mmmmm. What would Mr Murder say….? OK …who’s money? Cheney said debts don’t matter so it is not what is owed at least to Bush. (And me a just a wood kite…!!) The oil industry in Iran? I don’t buy this thing about dividing Iran-Saudi….homework time.

  • shirin

    I just saw this from The Washington Monthly in the comment section of Helena Cobban’s blog:

    The only thing that would have made this funnier is if the Iranians had been pulling waterskiers.

    • TeakWoodKite

      The thing is, they will not have to await for orders next time. And that will be in the next 30 days…If the “our friends” won’t “side” with Bush now they will “forced” to choose when it goes hot. We did not sell them JDAM’s for defense.

    • Cee

      LOL. Someone sent me a clip showing the Iranian boats towing waterskiers and later a squirrel.

      Shoot. I wish I had saved it. LOL!!

      • shirin

        I wish you had saved it too – that would be hilarious!

        But surely it will show up on Youtube, if it hasn’t already!

    • Fred C. Dobbs

      Having been buzzed innumerable times in Hormuz by what we called, “Go-Fast,” boats, this would be about the only piece of waterborne weirdness I haven’t seen there.

      • shirin

        LOL!

        Well, you must admit that the presence of Iranian speedboats in the Gulf is far more normal than the presence of warships from exactly half a world away.

  • twogunsid

    I served a board a US frigate in 1986 during the Tanker War. We regularly had incidents withe IRGC like what you see on the USNavy’s recently released video. It is my opinion that this type of confrontation, if it can even be called a confrontation, has been going on for the last 20 some years. The Bush administration is attempting to use these incidents to trick the public into supporting a strike against Iran by the US and it’s Gulf allies.

    • Shirin

      That sounds about right.

      Poor Li’l Georgie is getting desperate. His nucular (sic) threat fabrication got blown out of the water. No one seems to be sufficiently excited by his deeply hypocritical complaints that Iran is “interfering in Iraq”, and killing Americans there.

      What’s a poor wannabe emperor to do?!

      • TeakwoodKite

        Put some clothes on.

        • Shirin

          Alas! He has none.

          (Oooops! I wasn’t supposed to point that out, was I?)

          • TeakwoodKite

            Sorry, I had a Roger Rabbit moment! :)

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