On the Other Side of the War…

Another forgotten part of the terrible damage and price paid by American service men and women are the widows/widowers and fatherless and motherless children left behind in the US. Not to mention the thousands who are terribly wounded (some with emotional and physical wounds that may not be visable to the eye but are still life-destroying).
The cost of the Iraq war is really unmeasureable and like the Vietnam War will be with us a very long time.

God Bless our brave service men and women and their families. God Bless the innocent civilians in Iraq. Perhaps with Hillary as SOS we have a chance to end this terrible war in a manner that CAN bring peace to the Iraq.

Thank you Pat R. for this excellent post; in answer to your question….we must face what we have done, take responsibility for it and do our very best as US citizens to make it right…no easy task!!

Fabulous art, Pat!

Pat,
I was against this war from the beginning and the cost has been horrendous as you have plainly shown.
However, I try to look at the silver lining here. Iraq in the next few years will be one of the few bright spots in terms of economic growth. The Iraqi stock market will be booming and reconciliation is in the air especially after their recent vote.
Saddam was a ruthless dictator and although I disagreed with our methods I’m glad to see him gone.
A free and prosperous Iraq is very attainable now.The real injustice after all the blood would be to give up the cause for the Iraqi people and snatch defeat from certain victory.

Dead Iraqis (mortalities attributed to war)= 1,000,000

Displaced Iraqis= 4,500,000 (about one of every 6 Iraqis)

Iraqi widows= 1,000,000 to 2,000,000

Iraqi orphans= 5,000,000

And the Haliburton President walks away. This is a stain on our history, that should have led to the prosecution of Bush and Blair for War Crimes.

Then the criminal Republicans who spent over a $1 trillion destroying a Country they lied about, left the US repairing schools there (where access is now down to 40%), and opposing repairs in the States.

The only term a Republican needs is a Prison Term.

People always talk about the price paid by the U.S. The price paid by the Iraqis is far far higher. 1 mm Iraqis either directly or indirectly killed by the U.S. invasion would be the equivalent of 12 mm Americans dying.

You also left out the millions of Iraqis who are now living under far worse poverty and disease then they were before the U.S. invasion.

From Oxfam:

“28 percent of Iraqi children are malnourished, 15 percent of Iraqis regularly cannot afford enough to eat and 70 percent lack clean drinking water, all sharp increases since 2003″

check out:
http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=64375

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-28727320070730

It is a crime what the U.S. has done to Iraq. Basically destroyed a country of 25 million people. They had never attacked or threatened the U.S. It was a pure revenge attack on an Arab country for 9-11, even though Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9-11.

Can you say….”Impeachment is off the table.”?

You need to spread that blame…even Sen Obama voted for the war profiteers Halliburton to continue.

Pat, please cite where you got your figures.

I’m curious about the methodology that was used to arrive at those numbers.

Andrew 191–Just click on Tirman’s name above (it’ “hot”) and it will take you to the full article. I might add that I checked with other sources, including Larry Johnson, to try to make sure that the figures are not grossly exaggerated. Everyone said they are estimates, but probably about right.

Also, note the legitimacy of John Tirman himself–no slouch to be sure!

The other thing not mentioned is the state of society in Iraq. There are essentially no mixed neighborhoods left in Iraq. No Sunni’s in Shia neighborhoods. No Shia in Sunni neighborhoods. Few Christians at all left in the country. And the Kurds already have was is in effect their own country.

Violence is down now that the each sect and ethnically cleansed their neighborhoods, but they are not living as a nation. Their first allegiance is to their family and tribe and sect. Their nationality is not as important.

Though there may be the beginnings of a democracy there, it is not a unified country.

And it will never be our ally

Thank you for this post. So sad.

And now that Obama’s in, he’s adopting Bush’s Iraq plan. oh boy!

Avery good and emotional cartoon!

I do not believe that the figures of number of people are a good example of our involvement, but more of an example of what hatred does to people or what are the effects of religion on the warpath. No one told the people of Iraq to kill each other just like no one tells our gangs to kill each other and its citizens. Killing each other and its citizens is what gangs or terrorists do, regardless of their name, their religious cover, or nationality.

When you talk about Saddam having things under control it is true and the people had more of a sense of stability because they knew the rules for survival. The question is what obligation does this country, or any country, have to give people the rights for self government, even if that means that in the transition peoples’ attitudes and hatreds may cause havoc and deaths.

Rich

You give us all the standard Republican talking points. You sound like you are working for the Bush legacy project…

even if all you say is true..

The real question you should be asking yourself, is was the price worth it? both the price for the U.S. and the Iraqis?

And what is your timing for the new and better Iraq? The next few years? You got to be kidding. The country is a basket case and in many places has been knocked back into the stone age. Electricity and water are still running at rates well below what they were before the U.S. invasion.

And how do you not know that in 10 or 20 year Iraq on its own without the U.S. invasion would have not turned out to be a better place anyways. Maybe after Saddam died things would have gotten better anyways? You don’t know and we will never know?

And who are we to tell the Iraqis what they want and what is good for them? Do you think the average Iraqi cares if the stock market is booming, particulary when they just lost half their family and the country is now split among ethnic lines.

Reconciliation is in the air? You got to be kidding. I see a lot of those Sunnis moving back into their houses in Bagdad.

And how do you now that everything in Iraq is going to turn out to be peaches and cream. What if there is a coup and another ruthless dictator takes over? Maybe an Iranian supported Shite.

The U.S. has likely killed far more Iraqis than Saddam ever did and would have. Not sure who exactly is the ruthless dictator?

Love your phrase: “certain victory”. People throw around this victory word. What does that actually mean? Does that include the creation of a basket case country that is ethnically divided, that is run by a bunch of thugs and is supported by Iran and has no particular admiration or loyalty to the U.S., in fact probably hates us.

Does your definition of victory include the millions of young Iraqis that now hate us and could grow-up to be terrorists after they have watched their families get wiped-out by a daisy-cutter bomb?

If any of you have read “A Thousand Splendid Suns” by Khaled Hosseini, or “The Kite Runner”, you would know that sectarian violence is nothing new in that part of the world. It has gone on for centuries – far longer than the United States has been involved there.

Although this country can take its share of the blame, much of it has to do with the culture of the warring tribes. We can’t stop that. Unfortunately, oil is there and we have to be whether we like it or not. Unless and until this country can become energy self-sufficient, we are at their mercy.

No one told the people of Iraq to kill each other just like no one tells our gangs to kill each other and its citizens. ,

Indeed, the US and UK illegally invaded their nation, for what Seattle Moss calls a “Resource War”. There were no WMDs. That was always a pretence.

Killing each other and its citizens is what gangs or terrorists do

So sad, so true.

That is simply the damage one despot tyrant can cost and what the price of liberty sometimes demands. One lousy despot tyrant and how much we value liberty. Lets see if we are willing to squander that now. Lets see if we are willing to throw all that sacrifice away as if it is meaningless and withdraw from Iraq and leave them to the mercy of the Iranians and Al-Quaeda Islamic radicals.

she says where in the post, and links to her source.

Wow.
The art is powerful and dramatic.
The words are thoughtful and compelling.
The numbers horrifying and heartbreaking.
Yet we have perfected the fine art of avoiding pain and responsibility.
I wish I was more hopeful.
But if anyone can do it, you can Pat.
Thank you.

I visited you blog and LOVED the little girl singing “Over the Rainbow” It really warmed my heart and brought tears to my eyes. It was sooooo good. Thanks for posting it!

Great….! lets be the police of the world…. plenty of other “despots” we can throw out. By the way you send your children first to die to throw out these despots.

The invasion was not illegal. The Iraqis had a chance of killing or assassinating Saddam on their own and by themselves before the war and gaining their own liberty without our help. They just were simply to coward to do it. We had the courage to do what was necessary.

Mel Martinez should make his decision on how to vote for the Stimulus package proposed by the Democrats based on why 14,000 children including him were expatriated from Cuba in 1962. It seems Batista and politician in his administration did things that later on made it impossible for those children to be raised in liberty and freedom.

The Stimulus package is made to be paid by future generations just as much as by ours. Were and when will they need to go if when they are growing they will be assigned what they need to do in life in order to pay for what government is costing today?

Politicians make decisions and then later on people pay the price.

Choo Choo–you are always too kind! Thank you.

Thank You lark!!
I agree…No apologies for liberating oppressed peoples.

I wonder who the liberals will blame when we have another Pol Pot Cambodian type of slaughter in Iraq by withdrawing in haste without finishing the job.

UK,
You misread me…I said to prevent future resource wars!!

Bush Was Right. Again.
by Monica Crowley
02/04/2009

You’d never know it from listening to the lamestream media this weekend, but Iraqis went to the polls in nationwide provincial elections. Turnout was strong, and there was not a single major act of violence.

The early returns show a repudiation of the Islamist and other religious parties which had been in large part dominated by Iran. Secular parties, and in particular, the party of the current Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, appear to have gained position. This is a huge step toward a secular, stable representative democracy in Iraq.

“I just voted and I’m very happy,” said one Iraqi man.

“I want the political leaders to listen to us. I think this will begin the change,” said another.

“A great day,” said yet another.

The BBC reported that there was “a holiday atmosphere” among voters walking to the polling places.

A female Baghdad medical student said, “People here are so excited by the feeling that their vote can make a difference.”

Exhilaration over voting? Excitement? A holiday atmosphere?

The media, invested for years in the narrative that Iraq was a failure, only begrudgingly reported any of this, and made sure to counter it with erroneous reports about light turnout and confusing voting procedures.

Seriously?

Iraq had more effective and efficient candidate selection than we did.

Exhibit A: the Illinois Senate seat.

Exhibit B: the New York Senate seat.

Exhibit C: the Minnesota Senate seat (pending).

Exhibit D: ACORN, anyone?

We should have Iraqi election monitors watching us during our next elections. They ran a better show than we did.

Most disgracefully, our new president — a man who would run over his grandmother to get in front of a camera — could only manage a lame written statement “congratulating” the Iraqi people on holding elections. He’s got no problem holding press conferences about such pressing issues as the choice of White House puppy. But a presser on the landmark Iraq elections? Why, that’s a bridge too far.

President Bush stuck with Iraq. Against all political pressure and advice to the contrary, he went ahead with the surge and allowed the generals and the troops the latitude to see the engagement to victory. In the process, he liberated 28 million people from tyranny’s grip and gave them a shot at freedom.

Something tells me there was a “holiday atmosphere” at the former president’s Texas home this weekend.

Bush was right. Again.

It’s been my impression that Tony Blair and Dick Cheney and the Saudis, in essence

told the people of Iraq to kill each other

It was foreseeable and intentional. In fact, it was cautioned against from the getgo.

Cultivating, manipulating and arming fundamentalist factions is an old, old game of the racist Malthusian anti-development “elite.”

If it were not for the likes of them, the world would have had a Berlin-Baghdad rail system abuilding about the time of WW I. And probably rail lines from Africa to Europe, Russia, and Asia as well not long after.

Really shitty if you happen to have an Empire which controls all the sea lanes of the world.

Keep that central region in chaos. Keep control.

Not too kind. Far from it. Totally jealous of your talent and craft.

I’m with you. I stop whatever I’m doing and pay homage to those who gave their lives. In the first year of the war, CNN would run the names every night at 10:30. I don’t know when they stopped. I liked that they didn’t rush it. Stephanopolous runs the names so quickly that you can barely read them; same thing with PBS. I wish they knew that it means something to us; that we appreciate and mourn those men and women.

Arrgh! The moderation monster ate my comment! (Ends with “Keep control.”)

The most disgraceful moment of the campaign last year which forever has shaken my confidence with Obama and the left wing defeat and retreat Democrats
At the State of the Union Address
Bush pronounced the surge a success in Iraq
Everyone stood and clapped and cheered our troops including Hillary.
What did obama do?
Obama sat on his hands wishing for defeat in Iraq..
I will never forget that shameful moment!

Indeed, Pat. Powerful cartoon.

News organizations are currently reporting that returned soldier suicides will likely soon outnumber day-to-day U.S. Armed Forces “combat” casualties. This war destroys minds as well as bodies.

I pray you turn out to be right, Seattle Moss, for all those people’s sake.

Thank you Pat for the sweet answer.I just want whats’ best for all people in this cruel world.

It’s there, Gary. Scroll up a bit.

Yes SM what a disgraceful moment. But he’s not the biggest cheerleader for our country anyway. I’m not surprised by any of those stunts Obama pulled. I just know there are two sides to everything, and what the biased media will never do is show the citizens of Iraq who are happy to be free of Saddam.

There are those who throw gas on the sectarian fires.

I’m sorry, should have also said that examining how the field of cultural anthropology got going is interesting… studying cultures to the end of finding means to manipulate them.

“It looks like Iraq needs a strong leader who can take control and bring back order. Oh, yeah, almost forgot. They had one of those, but we caught him and “they” hanged him.”

I lived in Iraq back in 1987 and I wouldn’t want to live that way again, ever. What they had then was government by thuggery. This might be the same as a “strong leader” to you, I dont know, I hope not. Saddam deserved to be tried for the Dujail Massacre, and that was the smallest of his “strong leadership” events. If you want a taste of this sort of life try Syria, it is very similar now to what Iraq was then.

None of that is meant to disrespect the fallen on either side or the wonderful artwork you present – your pieces are always thought provoking and well done.

Thanks. But it didn’t appear immediately! (o:

Of course I never lived there. But answer me this The Real HC: Did everyone know the rules so that if you obeyed them you would be OK? Thuggery to be sure, but I was thinking about the possible stability–at least for those who towed the line. Or was his rule random?

I know Saddam was an awful person. But those numbers just blew me away. And I feel guilty somehow, even though I had nothing to do with the decision to pre-emptively invade.

A little off topic:

I remember being pregnant with my first baby shortly after the end of the Vietnam War, a war which is so much part of my generation it can’t be separated from who I am.

I have 34 cousins. It’s always been a thing in our family to have a big baby shower for the first born child. I can remember sitting through one of my cousin’s showers thinking that there was no way that baby could wear all the clothes she got, or use everything else, before she outgrew them.

So, when I was pregnant and knew we could handle the expense and pay for what we needed, I asked if it would be o.k. if I asked for contributions to a fund that helped the Amerasian children left behind in Vietnam. I felt we owed them. They were being treated very badly.

My request brought terrible mixed reactions because there was so much disagreement about right and wrong during that war also. I just thought that all those half-American kids should get some help, no matter what one’s belief about the war was.

I am wondering now if there aren’t quite a few half-American kids in Iraq. But even if there aren’t, those Iraqi kids need help.

Some interesting commentary regarding Iraq as well as other Middle Eastern countries.

http://www.editorialproject.wordpress.com

Well, I will give you the Dujail example – not at all Saddam’s most extreme moment- and you can decide if towing the line worked or not.

Saddams big motorcade was driving through a rival clan’s territory – think Obama goes skiing in Park City, in arabic, with more ammo. Someone takes shots at Saddam and a firefight ensues. So far business as usual and Saddam wins the fight.

The response? Pure retaliation.

Saddam sends troops to the town to kill a few hundred people and then send thousands more to prison camps in punishment. Women and children in addition to the men. He had thousands of acres of farming land in the area destroyed and did not allow farming for YEARS. The story is pretty well documented and not very pretty. And again, its not his biggest and baddest. I believe its considered a “small massacre” by his standards.

So no, towing the line didnt work if you happened to belong to the wrong group or live in the wrong zip code or be near someone Saddam didnt like or maybe if your neighbor didnt like you and filed a report or or or or or. Life in a police state is all about the ors.

I am actually happy with the new elections in Iraq. Happier with their than with ours.

Thanks for your response. I guess it’s that old way of retaliation against anything related to the actions of one or a few. We do see this theme in many countries thoughout history.

I don’t know how many of you are veterans of Iraq like me, but every time I see an Arabic child in LA I feel so dirty for being a part of this terrible war. We did nothing to make America safer, we just ruined an already crumbling state and left it vulnerable for future occupation by neighboring states like Iran. Now we’re stuck there because the conservative christian failure we called our commander in chief felt compelled to police the world under the guise of a nuclear threat, and we all bought it. I can only hope prez Obama will get us out of there before we ruin any more lives, but that seems like an impossibility now more than ever.
If there is a hell, I hope they have a nice section reserved for team Bush.

Why does a stable Iraq seem an impossibility now more than ever?

Why would you want us to leave right away if you fear expanded Iranian influence in the area?

Did you think the eternal Iran Iraq conflict was somehow a better way to limit the influence of both parties? Using children as minesweepers didn’t really give me the warm and fuzzies.

Americans feel compelled to “police the world” for many reasons. I hear cries from the extreme left that we are morally obligated to intervene in Darfur. So its not just conservative christians that make this suggestion.

If there is a hell (as an athiest I think not), I hope they have a nice section reserved for team Saddam.

Also, I remember the U.N. mandates which were ignored by Saddam. Up to the end, Saddam was given the option of leaving… with his sons and fortune intact. He refused. He guessed Bush was bluffing and he guessed wrong. My guess is no good people miss Saddam.

HC. Our own government supported Saddam as long as he played along. Don’t forget that famous photo of Rumsfeld and Saddam. And some believe that after a failed assasination attempt on president Abd al-Karim Qasim in 1959, Saddam escaped to Egypt where he was groomed by our own government to take over Iraq. I’m not sure about that, given Saddam’s hatred of the British. Why he would accept help from more Westerners…I don’t know. William Cleveland’s A History of the Modern Middle East is a great place to start to understand why I really don’t see Iraq becoming a model of democracy anytime soon. What we’re seeing now is a replay of what the British did back then. Without a strong leader, Iraq fell into years of coups, back and forth for decades. The horrible reality is that the only long term stability Iraq has ever had since it’s British inception was Saddam’s reign. Sick, huh?

Another compelling cartoon, Pat.

It seems easy for many people to bury their heads in the sand and act like the realities of this war and others just didn’t happen. There are those who say the 6,000,000 Jews allegedly exterminated by Hitler just did not happen. Many eople seem addicted to dodging responsibiity.

I believe there is plenty of evidence that Bush and Cheney started the war against Iraq on trumped up charges. For example, Saddam was accused of gassing the Kurds, whereas, it is more likely it was Iran. Check out the link below.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=4009

Saddam was accused of harboring weapons of mass destruction, but none were ever found. Bush and cronies continue to try to justify the war. True, Saddam contolled his people by killing his dissenters, and that was bad. But, looking at your statistics, how many killings of innocent people and how many soldiers of our country and our allies have lost their lives as a result of prosecuting this ill-advised war.

And now we are going to escalate the deployment of troops to Afghaniistan. What are we accomplishing by getting involved in another distant country whose people and beliefs, and customs, we dimly understand. I anticipate another tragic end to another misguided effort.

What are we thinking?

Thanks all 3 of you for the kind words about the art. It just flows when I get upset!

People always talk about the price paid by the U.S. The price paid by the Iraqis is far far higher. 1 mm Iraqis either directly or indirectly killed by the U.S. invasion would be the equivalent of 12 mm Americans dying.

You also left out the millions of Iraqis who are now living under far worse poverty and disease then they were before the U.S. invasion.

From Oxfam:

“28 percent of Iraqi children are malnourished, 15 percent of Iraqis regularly cannot afford enough to eat and 70 percent lack clean drinking water, all sharp increases since 2003″

check out:
http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?reportid=64375

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-28727320070730

It is a crime what the U.S. has done to Iraq. Basically destroyed a country of 25 million people. They had never attacked or threatened the U.S. It was a pure revenge attack on an Arab country for 9-11, even though Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9-11.

Great, sad visual, Pat.

This is done to bring Democracy to the Middle East?
Iraq is about the size of California. Imagine these statistics if they pertained to California citizens.
We “the United States of America”, have made a whole nation hate us forever. Each individual alive in the statistics will never forget our involvement.
GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW.

Moving troops to Afganistan is perpetuating this war crime. Just imagine yourself and your family living in one of these two countries. If you are still alive, how do you feel? All IN OUR NAME.
There’s no WINNING in either country. Only death and destruction, and breeding hate in the local populations against us Americans and our “allies in Crime”.

Lets start with Putin. Maybe you and Lark can join the military to go off and throw out all these other leaders who “you” consider to be despotes.

Dude, why did you not join the military and go fight in Iraq? Maybe give your life for the Iraqis. That would be admirable. Easy to be a big macho man, but put your money were your mouth is.

hey, none of us is dude! maybe in your circle, but not everyone wants to have the term used for them. and it is despots!

by the way did you fight in iraq? have you now or ever been a member of the military?

Sure, I blame Winston Churchill. He is as guilty as any.

Iraq is turning out to be a great success!!
Americanized and free…Thank you America for liberating another country from the yoke of tyranny.

UK…You have lost this argument!

Comment by Docelder | 2009-02-05 17:58:48

Also, I remember the U.N. mandates which were ignored by Saddam. Up to the end, Saddam was given the option of leaving… with his sons and fortune intact. He refused. He guessed Bush was bluffing and he guessed wrong. My guess is no good people miss Saddam.

The UN resolutions were to give up WMDs. Not to assassinate a Foreign Leader, which is definitely a war crime.

He did not give up the WMDs as there were no WMDs. Rethugs trying to justify the $trillions taht will have to be lost to Iraq just shame the World. They shame America because this was a war based on an obvious lie, that lost the US World wide sympathy.

The Government that aided Al Queda more than anyone else in the World, was not Afghanistan, it was the US under G.W Bush.

(G.H Bush helped Middle East Security).

Seattle, some here, namely those who can not discuss topics with a degree of thought, may call me a “troll”, however there are most definitely times you troll. Just from conversations on here I know that you are not serious about that remark. Otherwise, instead of celebrating July 4, you would cry.

The US has forever so destabilsed the Middle East, for a War that was unnecessary, illegal and potentially never ending. The people the US Government are now funding as a result of the surge, in order to “reduce” violence and to provide an opposition to Iran, are the Sunni Al Queda movement. George W allowed America to get into a position where on the streets of Iraq, what are called Sunni Operatives (AQ) are being paid to not blow up Shiites (Iran, Saudi).

Seattle, I would LOVE to lose this argument. I fear we have lost much much more.

I just saw the mainstream news tonight
All positive about Iraq!
Women without veils, religious parties losing their power. Maliki taking on centrists from both sides. Happiness in the air, violence down ,liquor store opening etc.
Yes… Iraq will be very prosperous and will have better economic growth than any other country through the coming years.
I’m bullish on Iraq and I’m bullish on the US.

Your argument is over..America won!!

Thank you SM. All of these Kool Aid drinking idiots who know nothing about geopolitics will be surprised when this goes down in history as a big success. And, then, along came Obama. Which will go down in history as the end of America.

Poor UK…
Must suck to be on the losing side of history!
When you start calling Moss a troll then you have really struck out with your argument.
Lets recap what America haters like you loathe about Great American Patriots such as myself

America is number one in the world
America makes no apologies for liberating countries from tyranny
America makes no apologies for protecting the American sphere of influence
America makes no apologies for its military and how it protects you and everyone else from terrorism and resource wars.
America makes no apologies for liberating the Iraqi people.

and furthermore
Iraq is a brilliant strategy
Bush kept us safe
Cheney is a hero

Suck on it UK
all the way to dirty New Street or Snow Hill
Birmingham is a dump!

People keep forgetting this fact; that is, if they ever knew.

correction. Meant to say – Totally envious of your talent and craft.

I am sure you did not give two shits about Iraq before the U.S. invaded. I bet you would have been one of those guys that if Bush did not lie to you about the reasons to go to war you would not have support the U.S. from throwing out Saddam.

Are you shouting really loud that the U.S. should go into the Sudan or Zimbabwe? What about China, Saudia Arabia, or Egypt? We could go to Yemen, maybe Burma next…

And what of the price we have paid for this “victory”??? Was it worth it to you?

You think you are a patriot, but you really represent the worst in this country. An aggressive shot first attitude.

Bush made us far less safe. There are way more people on this planet that can’t stand the U.S. than before we invaded Iraq. That has affected how much countries are willing to cooperate with us and has attracted many more to radical islam’s cause. Just ask Larry Johnson about this.

Hey, Seattle Moss,

If you google the term “blind patriotism” you will ee that many people feel blind patriotism is dangerous. As an example, if you wish check out the message in the site below and comment:

http://media.www.bcheights.com/media/storage/paper144/news/2001/10/23/Letters/blind.Patriotism.Is.Dangerous-130068.shtml

That’s why I always drive round Birmingham via the M6…….north