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Open Thread: Present Your Case

By SusanUnPC on February 2, 2008 at 4:59 PM in Open Thread

Present your best case for your favored candidate.

Let us know if you’ll be voting this coming week — either on Super Tuesday or soon thereafter. (Here in Washington state, we vote next Saturday in caucuses. I’ve invited people from a local mailing list to come here and express their opinions. I told them that they can post anonymously, making up any username they want, and just let loose.)

And, as always, if you want to bring up something besides politics, you’re most welcome to do so!

It’s amazing, isn’t it, that John McCain — given up for “dead” last summer by everyone — has emerged as the near-sure candidate for the Republicans. You just never know, do you. I wonder if a lot of it has to do with the Republicans’ unhappiness with their entire field of candidates. One indication of that was how much the polls fluctuated. After Huckabee won Iowa, he was everyone’s favorite candidate…. then, after New Hampshire, he’s faded and all but certain not to be “the one.” Rudy led all the national polls for months and months, but never had a decent showing in any of the primary states, and now he’s gone.

Do you think that McCain will select Rudy as his running mate?

So help me god, if I have to listen to John McCain between now and November say “My friends” in every sentence, I’m going to have turn the TV on permanent mute.

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

Kind of OT: But I just want to say that I’m very frustrated that we have the caucus system in Washington state. I have no clue how I’m going to make it to the caucus, and walk all around a big elementary school. Ugh. I probably will have to skip it. We also get to vote by ballot, but the state party — I think — ignores those results.

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

The State Dem party totally ignores the primary. You should call Dwight Pelz’ office and tell him that you are physically unable to attend the caucus and that the primary initiative of 1992 was passed with people like you in mind — good Democrats who want to participate but are being dismissed by the party.

Give him hell. He deserves it.

TeakWoodKite

I would love to hear the results of such an call.
http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

Truly. I watched KCTS’s local show last night, and Pelz et al. were making the usually B.S. excuses about the caucuses. It’s the old-time Dems who want to control everything. They like to control things in my area too. Do you think a single soul has called me about the caucus next Saturday? Not one person. Not one. It’s unbelievable … I’m not only a registered voter here, but I attended the caucus in 2004 so am recorded in their rolls — out of the hundreds of people who live in my precinct, I was one of a DOZEN people who attended. You’d think they’d want to woo me. But I know the precinct committeeperson here, and she’s an old grouch. She only wants her friends to come. Funnily enough, she’s probably for Hillary but she probably thinks that people like me are for Kucinich or Edwards or Obama, and she doesn’t want us to mess with things.

TeakWoodKite

You’d think they’d want to woo me
Do it for the Vets you told me about living in the woods. I think of that frequently.

Shit, bring ‘em with you and a camera as to boot.

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

That’s a beautiful thought, Teak. Yes, I think about them a lot.

Like tonight. It just started pouring down hail. And it’s cold out. I think they all have some type of self-made structure, but no heat, no electricity, no warmth of a loving touch — unless they’re fortunate enough to have a dog.

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

Here’s an announcement from Hillary’s campaign about Monday night’s Town Hall:

Veteran Journalist Carole Simpson To Serve As Moderator Of Voices Across America: A National Town Hall

The Clinton campaign today announced that veteran journalist Carole Simpson will serve as moderator for Hillary’s Voices Across America: A National Town Hall. The three-time Emmy award winner will join Hillary at the anchor event in New York. The town hall will be broadcast live on Hallmark Channel and online on the eve of Super Tuesday, Monday, February 4, 2008 at 9 p.m. EST. Voters will be able to participate in this historic town hall by attending the New York event or one of the other 21 satellite simulcast events across the country, watching it live on television, and viewing a real-time stream of the event at hillaryclinton.com.

“I’m excited to have Carole serve as moderator of this historic town hall,” said Clinton. “Carole has exemplified excellence throughout her career. Her participation in this event will ensure that we keep the voices of the American public at the forefront of this discussion.”

Simpson is now a professor at Emerson College and was the longtime weekend anchor of ABC World News Tonight. Simpson began her career in her native Chicago, working for community newspapers, radio and local television. She joined ABC News in 1982 and served as weekend anchor for 15 years, from 1988 to 2003. During the 1992 presidential campaign, she was moderator of the historic second presidential debate, the first to follow a town-hall format and the first to be moderated by a woman and an African-American.

Simpson also was a reporter on the critically acclaimed documentary, Black in White America. For the past four years she wrote two columns for the ABC website and served as an ambassador to high schools for ABC, reaching more than 5,000 students in two years. She is now a regular commentator for National Public Radio.

In addition to three Emmys, two duPont-Columbia Awards, a Peabody Award, and the Milestone in Broadcasting award from the National Commission on Working Women, among others. In 1992, the National Association of Black Journalists named her Journalist of the Year. In 1999, she was inducted into the Chicago Journalism Hall of Fame.
Sue Thompson

I will be voting for Obama in the caucus. The good news is that whichever Democrat wins, the country will be in good shape.
My reasons are personal. The moment Hillary would win the nomination, all the Clinton “garbage” starts again with her “killing Vince” etc and I am tired of hearing about it and arguing about it. With Hillary as the nominee, that would GUARANTEE a heavy turnout amongst Republicans due to her negatives, rightly or wrongly.
Obama would present a new fresh image to politics and United States. Imagine the positive image to the world with a young black man with small children as the leader of the world. Many Republicans and independents would vote for Obama that absolutely would NOT for Hillary. The image of the US right now in the worldview is so negative due to the war, torture, loss of civil rights, etc that it is so VERY important to elect a Democrat this year. I want us to WIN and I think Obama is the one who would bring us that victory.
Sue Thompson, Mission,

simon

See, you say image, and image isn’t enough, Britney Spears has an image, even your anti Clinton reasoning is specious.

But I dont think anything will dissuade you, I don’t think YOU understand your REAL reasons for voting Obama, and like Bush’s 24%, you’re Obama’s 24%, you arent open to questioning your POV.

So, like the republicans with Bush, I’m not sure Hillary should spend any time trying to win you over, she should concentrate on voters more open to the complexities of the issues.

It is incredibly naive to think, say, Putin would be swayed by Obama’s IMAGE as a young black President, he is not naive. But if that’s what you want, that’s what you get, and, with all due respect, you’re fucked.

Centrocitta

…..It is incredibly naive to think, say, Putin would be swayed by Obama’s IMAGE as a young black President, he is not naive. But if that’s what you want, that’s what you get, and, with all due respect, you’re fucked……

Obviously, you don’t have a clue about the attitude of Europeans towards blacks. Racism is an American thing — learned from the British.

simon

No racism in Europe?

You’re thinking in binary generalizations, much like the Bush administration does, inept, inaccurate assessments and horrifically flawed decisions are the result if you magically believe racism isn’t an issue, it is, and it affects perception, and action.

Again, with all due respect, this is the type of fairy tale thinking Bill Clinton was referring to, the childish belief of the analogue thought, ie no racism in Europe. Your decision making platform is already built on a lie, your decisions based on false premises, unrealistic and ineffective from the ground up. So you give your enemy the advantage.

It’s the equivalent of “we will be greeted as liberators in Iraq, and the Iraqi army is not competitive.”

I wasn’t speaking of racism, anyway, I was speaking of lack of experience, Putin not being swayed by Obama’s gassy glamour. So you already projected your fear and prejudice on to the statement. Again, that isn’t something you want to do, it reveals much of your psychology, your inability to accurately perceive an issue, despite your self image. Spin, words, also create reality for the spinner and his team, it’s too powerful a weapon in the hands of an amateur, or weak minded man. He drowns.

Centrocitta

Simon, back in the early 60′s Mae Britt, a Swedish girl married Sammy Davis Junior. In the early 90′s in Texas, my neighbor from Norway, was also married to a black guy. She was very blond and blue and proud of saying that she came from the coldest country in the world. If non racist attitudes towards blacks exist Scandanavia, it’s easy to understand why they are also non racists towards blacks in the Mediterranean. So I can’t confirm that there is racism in Europe.

On the other hand, my friend, born and raised in Rome, emigrated to the USA at age 20. She lived on the East Coast for 39 years and is now retired back in Italy and thoroughly disgusted because her nephew in Rome is dating a black girl, while Italians who never left Europe have no problem with it whatsoever.

Like I said, racism is learned from the British. You need only to look at the troubles of blacks in places like USA, South Africa and Australia to realize this. Of course, if you never lived in Europe (by the way the UK is not Europe), you might not realize it.

shirin

Arabs, Kurds, Persians, Turks, and Africans who live in Sweden and other Scandanavian countries would not agree with you that there is no racism in Scandanavia. Based on their experiences, it is alive and well there.

Ditto for the rest of Europe.

Centrocitta

My brother-in-law is British. King Gustav from Sweden is his distant relative. Maybe the fact that Brits and Swedes are related has something to do with the racism you claim exists in Sweden.

Centrocitta

Sorry, King Gustav from Norway — not Sweden. Scandanavia nevertheless.
shirin

Gosh, Centrocita, first you insist that there is no racism in Europe, and now you are trying to figure out WHY there is so much racism in Europe (it’s all the fault of the Brits, of course!).

shirin

“The good news is that whichever Democrat wins, the country will be in good shape.”

Sorry, but I don’t see any actual evidence at all to justify such a definitive statement. It’s almost certain that the country would be in worse shape with the Republicans we have to choose from, but there is no basis for assuming a guarantee that electing a democrat is going to bring the country out of the darkness and into the light.

The problems of this country did not begin and will not end with George Bush or the Republicans. They go back well before George Bush, exist across party lines and they are systemic.

simon

Do you really think McCain would be a worse President than Obama?

I dont see Obama as a democrat.

simon

Obama’s remarks on the Kenyan and Pakistani situations show he has no grasp on foreign policy, none, at all.

Perhaps his adviser helps him, but it is my impression he is not really interested in the complexities he faces, much like Bush, it’s hard, hard work. Karl Rove thinks Obama is lazy, and Rove CAN usually sum up a candidate’s weaknesses very well.

I think McCain, FWIW, would do better, he doesn’t appear as ignorant as Cheney, both being hawks, but time will tell.

http://www.bariatwan.com/ NOT A CIA OPERATIVE

Rove thinks Obama is lazy.

Is this a joke. Is Bush not lazy?

kenoshaMarge

So we should elect a president, the leader of our country so that we can say to the world, “look what we did. We are racist no more.” Evidently we would also be saying to them “look, we won’t elect a woman after all these years so we must still be sexist.” What absolute drivel!

We need to elect the person that will do the best job for a country that is in turmoil. We need to elect a strong, smart person who understands the issues.

This ain’t American Idol and we aren’t electing the prettiest picture postcard to send to the rest of the world.

We will prove to the rest of the world, and to ourselves, that we are racist and sexist no more when we stop defining our candidates by the amount of melanin in their skin and their gender. When we stop caring about their hair ,their wardrobe and their ability to “project” a positive image.

When we have the ability to elect a candidate by what is in their head and in their heart then we will become a mature and honestly democratic society.

Let the damn Republicans turn out. We can turn out more. What matters more, the right person for the job or the fact that some of us are “tired” of all the nastiness? Nasty is what the conservatives have in their DNA. Do you think they are going to play nice with Barak Obama?
Mr.Murder

The Clintons trook the White House a second time with the reich wing media sliming them.

People vote with their pocketbooks.

It’s the economy, newbie.

Kathy

I am one of the blue haired ladies you guys talk about. I have waited at least 45 years for a woman with brains and balls to come along qualified to be president. Susan, I don’t need to tell you why Hillary is the only one prepared and ready to go at this horrible time in our history. Larry expressed it beautifully several weeks ago in an article that told why Hillary was his choice. I voted in Florida in the primary and I hope to vote in November. This election means so much to me. I could cry every time I think the American people don’t get it. I often think about the brain power that has been pissed away over the last three centuries because someone was a woman or a minority. We should be ashamed of ourselves as a nation for allowing that to happen. But things are looking up!! Go Hillary!!!

kenoshaMarge

Another Blue-haired Female for Hillary. Not because she’s a woman but because she’s the right person for the job. I’m happy I will get to vote for a woman at long last but I’m even happier that I will not have to hold my nose to vote. In the primary anyway and ours here in Wisconsin isn’t until February 19 so here’s hoping my vote won’t be pointless by then.

BernieO

Tim Russert was all a-twitter after the Florida primary saying that Huckabee was staying in. He was postively gleeful in his analysis that the Huckster was staying in to help McCain on Super Tuesday against Romney, saying that McCain would then reward him with the VP slot. Russert seemed to think this was just peachy because it would bring in the evangelicals. Now there’s a good idea! At McCain’s age no one will care if his VP is unqualified to be president, will they?
My choice, although I don’t vote until April, is Hillary. I do not think that Obama is near ready enough. His support for his cousin Odinka is a perfect example of the kind of boneheaded mistake that the Republicans will use to trash him. The Rezko mess will provide a lot of fodder, too. Let’s not forget the right wing was able to turn Kerry’s incredible bravery against him, so imagine what they will be able to do with this stuff.
Even without this, for me Obama’s refusing to support a health care mandate is a deal breaker. Now is the time to go for it. Not only are ordinary citizens extremely worried about health insurance, both health care providers and corporations are also fed up with the system and are ready to deal.
I do think if Obama loses this time he will be all the better for it. It is very important that people who are as talented as he is need to face challenges in their careers. So far, Obama has never faced serious opposition. I think that makes him dangerously overconfident. Bill Clinton admits that being thrown out of office by the voters of Arkansas was a painful, but extremely important experience for him. He learned that he could not just rely on the force of his personality and brains to get things done. He had to be in touch with what the people think. Clinton came back and was elected for four terms, during which time he did a lot of good for the state.
In sum, I think the best thing for everyone would be for Hillary to win this time, which she will do if we all stand up and fight for her, something we did not do with either Gore or Kerry. If Obama is willing to learn from losing, develop some humility as well as use his time to seriously prepare himself on matters like foreign policy, then I think he has the potential to be a great president. If this happens we will have the benefit of both of these enormously intelligent, passionate people. If Hillary wins, I doubt that it is likely she will ever run again, so we will lose the opportunity to benefit from her knowledge and experience.

John

your last sentence makes my head hurt- “If Hillary wins, I doubt that it is likely she will ever run again. so we will lose the opportunity to benefit from her knowledge and experience.” If she WINS she won’t run again? Did you mean to write “if she LOSES?” Or that you expect her to serve only one term?

I think Obama needs some seasoning. He should run as Hillary’s VP. I can’t see that ticket losing to any combination of Republicans.

simon

Where I live, Mitt Romney’s campaign, (Mitt Romney!) ran an ad attacking Clinton’s lack of experience.

It was false, and in Clinton’s case, could be countered very easily.

But is was a taste of how they will campaign against Obama, and Obama will not be able to refute the truth…

Obama ’08: in this complex world ( cut to shot of grimy violence and tragedies, the stock market crashing, say), hope, not experience matters…

And then they can follow up with the old Dusty Springfield song ” wishin and hope ‘in,” you know, “wear your hair just for him.”

Followed up with a shot of moveon.org’s endorsement, Ted Kennedy, Kerry, all those “weak” democrats who didn’t protect us from terrorism, taking out the libs, and Obama’s campaign, simultaneously.

Just a thought…

Mara

I live in Washington and this is the first primary I’m old enough to have a say in! I’m caucusing for Hillary, and I’ve volunteered a bit for the campaign here. (I’ve never been so excited about a politician, even though I’ve been interested in politics for a long time – or at least a long time for someone my age – I remember being crushed when Gore “lost” in 2000!)

Hillary is the best on healthcare, hands down. She’s one smart, tough cookie. Plus, Obama simply isn’t vetted, and I’m wary about this whole bipartisanship, change, hope, and inspiration thing. Where’s the beef?
NB

With all due respect Sue, I have to say I think you are wrong about the support Hillary would receive from republicans and independents. First, Hillary got nearly as many republicans write her in as Barack Obama (yes, this is true, she had around 1640 and he had around 1700). Same thing in Nevada, she had only slightly less crossover people voting for her.

From personal experience, many of my relatives are Republicans or independents and they are really excited to vote for Hillary because the love her, and they love the experience and the fight she brings to the table. In contrast, they do not feel Obama is experienced enough and they will vote for any Republican over him. I think the argument cuts both ways.

It is true that the Republicans will throw garbage at the Clintons, but you are wrong to think they will not throw the same kind of garbage at Obama. And it will be just as wrong when they do it to Obama as when they need it to the Clintons. They will go after his history, his middle name, his race, Rezko (which has gotten even worse because Rezko has ties to an Iraqi billionaire who has ties to Sadaam Hussein), his getting involved in Africa. There is actually a 37 page document being sent around in right wing circles attacking Obama. They will attack if Clinton is nominated as well, but I just don’t want anyone to get lulled into a false sense of security thinking Obama will be immune to any of this because he is not a Clinton.

Personally, I am enthusiastically supporting Hillary. I think she is simply wonderful, and really brilliant. I was a teenager when she was First Lady, and I just loved her right away because she broke the mold of what I had always thought a first lady should be. She inspired my sister to join the debate team and attend law school and she reminded me that I don’t have to take the backseat to any man. That was an important lesson for me as I am now trying to make it in a very male dominated profession.

I lived in New York when she was Senator, and I have to say, this woman remarkably managed to deliver on her promises. For all of the hate Republicans claimed they felt for her, she won over a lot of Republicans during both elections. Rural upstate New York is solidly Clinton country. They love her because she made them promises, she took their voices to the Senate, and she did everything in her power to deliver on those promises. She truly did unite, not divide as Obama (and the Republicans) would have everyone believe.

I also think she is the most qualified for this position. While I am sure Barack Obama is a fine person, I have SERIOUS concerns about his readiness to be president. He was a part-time state senator for eight years, which is simply not adequate experience for me. The state legislature is very different from being on a national stage. He promised the people of Illinois he would complete a full term before seeking higher office, but be has gone back on his word. I also do not think his work in the state or US Senate is especially remarkable.

I do think his present votes in the state senate are a problem because they point to a pattern of ducking from hard issues. In some cases, perhaps he was using legislative strategy, but in other cases, his vote simply does not make sense. He has continued this pattern of ducking important votes in the US Senate (Kyl-Lieberman, General Betrayus) and has missed more votes than any other candidate by a pretty large margin. I am also disturbed by his statement that he pressed the wrong button while voting in the state senate. Once, I can understand, but six times? I suspect he was playing politics. If not, he was just careless and irresponsible, which is far worse.

I am disturbed by his lack of foreign policy experience. While he is basing his entire candidacy on a single speech he gave in 2002 against the war, that just does not cut it for me. Since he has gotten to the Senate he has not taken any measures to be an outspoken advocate against the war. In my mind, stating that you do not support something in 2002, going back in 2004 and saying maybe you would have supported it, and then voting with the people who supported it every time you had the chance, does not buy the “I was opposed to the war” argument any credibility. In fact, it makes me wonder why he keeps harping on this one point – why is this all his candidacy is based on? Along these lines, I am bothered by the fact that he did not bother to hold a single hearing for his sub-committee on the Foreign Relations Committee. How can he say he is prepared to be commander-in-chief when he has not bothered to hold a single hearing?

His domestic policies are generally not as progressive as Senator Clinton’s. Universal health care is a core principle for me, and it is one thing for him to not want mandates, it is entirely another to pretend his plan is universal when it is not and then in the same breath undermine efforts at universal health care with the harry and louise advertisements.

And finally, I find Senator Obama to be hypocritical. He runs a campaign based on hope and change and unity, but the truth is he is running with some of the oldet campaign tricks in the book. He has been nasty and divisive towards Senator Clinton (case and point, continually painting her as polarizing when the facts say otherwise and attacking universal health care to cover the inadequacies in his own plan). He has said again and again that her supporters will back him in a general, but his supporters will not back her. That is divisive, it is his responsibility to rile that support up, just as I know she will do (because she has said so again and again). And frankly, he is mistaken on this point because I know many Hillary supporters who will not vote for him because they do not think he is prepared. So, I believe he has undermined his entire campaign platform again and again. I guess for me, I feel like he is saying I should vote for him even though he does not have as much experience because he is new and different and promotes unity. His actions have shown that platform to be false, so if I am getting the same old WITHOUT experience I see no reason to vote for him….

And besides, I love Hillary, I always have. She is a true progressive who is also realistic about how to get things done. She is smart, a real wonky wonder, and she is genuine. I feel that I always know where I stand with her.

Alibe

wow! That was a great endorsement!
John

Fantastic. I dont’ have anything to add, you said it all!

Go Hillary! Pick Obama for VP if you must, but Hillary Clinton HAS to be our nominee for President!

Annoy the Media! Elect Hillary for President!
shirin

Hillary is a lot of things, many of them good, and she has a lot of great qualities, but a progressive she most assuredly is not. Her foreign and military policy record is about as far from progressive as you can get. Progressives do not use or support the use of military violence and strangulation of civilian populations as as an instrument of foreign policy. Hillary has a history of just that.

simon

A progressive American military now means one that wins.

Sometimes you have to fight.

shirin

Sometimes you have to fight? Fight what? Or don’t you mean sometimes you have to PICK fights?

Are you really saying that it is appropriate to use military violence against others for anything other than defense?

simon

Sometimes you have to defend.

Do you think America has no enemies, is not under attack, asymmetrically, from China, or Russia, say, economically, or politically?

Why are we fighting for oil? What would happen to our economy, our world position if our economy failed? Do you think Russia, or China, are ignorant of this?

NOT defending is as bad as empire building, but to throw troops the way Cheney did, haphazardly, and stupidly, is not smart strategy.

It’s more a high level chess game, Cheney plays Chinese checkers.

How do you “fight” with peace?

That’s the question.

John Kennedy did.

Shirin

“Sometimes you have to defend.”

Defend what? When was the last time the U.S. military was used in genuine self-defense?

“Do you think America has no enemies, is not under attack, asymmetrically, from China, or Russia, say, economically, or politically?”

Are you suggesting that military violence is the correct response to economic or political challenges?

“Why are we fighting for oil?”

Is that what you are fighting for in Iraq? Wouldn’t it have been easier and cheaper just to make nice with Saddam and buy the stuff? Or is something else going on?

“What would happen to our economy, our world position if our economy failed?”

I am confused. Is that why you are insisting in staying in Iraq, or what? Or are you even talking about the use of military violence here? I don’t understand.

“Do you think Russia, or China, are ignorant of this?”

Sorry, but what has this to do with the appropriatness of the use of military violence against countries that have not attacked you?

“NOT defending is as bad as empire building”

Is it? Not defending against what? And “defending” how? I don’t really understand your point here. Are you talking about military violence, or something else? This all seems very incoherent to me, which means either it is incoherent, or we arel talking about different things, or possibly both.

“but to throw troops the way Cheney did, haphazardly, and stupidly, is not smart strategy.”

So, to throw troops away systematically and non-stupidly is smart strategy? And what about the innocent lives of women, children, men, and old people your troops throw away in the absence of any real threats. Are those lives lost for a good cause – i.e. the selfish intersts of the United States?

“How do you “fight” with peace?

Not sure I understand you, but in my world if different parties’ interests compete or conflict you don’t bomb or invade, you negotiate.

“John Kennedy did.

Pardon me if I am incorrect, but didn’t John Kennedy escalate the Viet Nam thing?

Centrocitta

…..I lived in New York when she was Senator, and I have to say, this woman remarkably managed to deliver on her promises…..

I lived in Austin, Texas while Bush was governor. Unfortunately, I can’t say that Bush delivered on anything at all. But I can tell you about some other interesting things that were going on in Texas at the time — and I plan to do just that, come November!

simon

Much has been made of Obama and the youth vote.

I was thinking this morning how Clinton revised the student loan laws, offering protection from the loan sharks. That, and voting to cap interest rates on credit cards, ensuring our children at least have a chance for fiscal security.

Obama voted against the credit card cap, and has done nothing to protect college kids, a do nothing, refusing to curb the behavior of those who would exploit our children, the future of our country.

And this again plays into our national security, a country where young people have hope is a country that progresses. When you take that away simply so some half wit money man can exploit for greater profit, you’re hurting the future for us all. One hundred thousand dollars of college debt coupled with huge interest rates is a financial hole a college kid will never climb out from under, why bother working, creating or developing new ideas, right, the kid will never see reward for his work.

No need to worry about some Chinese propagandist, unregulated American greed can destroy it from within. Too much money, like too much Oprah, is a bad bad thing.
TeakWoodKite

Till then I will be dying of curiosity, Centrocitta. Not even a hint? Be well.

http://OUTRAGEDBUTNOTSURPRISED bama_barrron

now that edwards has suspended his campaign i am going to vote for hillary. my reasons are many but probably the most important reason is why i’m a democrat in the first place. i sincerely believe hillary will be the most effective voice for those americans who need a voice … the poor and the working class. her health care plan and her proposed economic stimulus plan are achievable and will benefit those that need help the most. i believe she will get us out of iraq as fast as possible … a withdrawl that will not make any more enemies for america while hopefully handing the country back to the iraqis in the fairest manner possible.

this being said, i must also speak about my mistrust of obama … i have tired hard to find a reason to trust him but the harder i look the more cynical i become. i agree with others in here, he needs more experience; a track record in the senate that we can judge him on might instill more trust. sorry, i cant buy into the idealized version of a new kennedy camelot in america … i dont want or need such a dream and i think this country needs much more then that as we attempt to undo the damage of the worst president in history. it will not be an easy job … not even close … so give me a fighter … someone who i know will stand up to the right and do what is best for all of us. hillary, in my opinion, is that person.

shirin

“i believe she will get us out of iraq as fast as possible … a withdrawl that will not make any more enemies for america while hopefully handing the country back to the iraqis in the fairest manner possible.”

Have you looked at her proposals for Iraq in any detail? Her “withdrawal” plan would result in approximatly 50,000 troops, including combat troops, stationed in Iraq indefinitely.

And I am very curious as to what is the “fairest” manner to hand Iraq back to Iraqis – as opposed to what, exactly?

http://OUTRAGEDBUTNOTSURPRISED bama_barrron

shirin i must concede to your expertise in all things middle eastern (sic) but your projections of 50K troops stationed in iraq for god know how long leaves me puzzled … where and when did hillary endorse such a plan? have you mixed up the mccain plan with her plan? you know the one where he says … more war and no jobs!

plese dont bother to respond … we are both reading own tea leaves as it were.

Shirin

It is not my projection. It is the conclusion of people who have examined in detail what Hillary has said she plans to do, and who understand militarily what it will require.

It is not that Hillary has “endorsed such a plan”, it is that Hillary has stated very specifically what she intends to do and that if she follows that intention, it will require a certain number of troops to remain indefinitely in order to accomplish it.

No, we are not both reading tea leaves. You might or might not be, but I am reading the analyses of Middle East and military authorities.

If you would like more details and more information, I will be happy to provide them, so just let me know.

TeakWoodKite

Imagine the positive image to the world with a young black man with small children as the leader of the world.

With respect for your personal reasons:

The same man with “small children” allowed people from his district in Illinois to freeze their asses off and claims not to know about it. Thats not a positive image, thats a fact that requires no imagination.

Hillary on Diplomacy. Check
Obama None. Missle strike?

Hillary on National Defense. Check (Armed services)
Obama None.

Hillary on Health Care Check
Obama None.. (Not for everyone)

Hillary on Governmental Affairs Check
Obama “None “present”

Hillary on “where the bodies are buried” Check
Obama needs a map

Hillary on Energy Check
Obama is in bed with the Nuke industry and left Durbin to explain why Illinois lost 1.8 billion for Clean Energy.

Hillary on Experience Check
Obama a “fresh face”

Hillary on Judgement and learning from errors Check
Obama NONE.

Hillary on protecting minority speech Check
Obama NONE
gqmartinez

My family in Washington state will be there for Hillary!

The question I’ve begun asking people these days is: If Barack Obama had the same resume but was a woman, would he be as far as his is right now? From a practical standpoint, Obama has been toward the bottom of my list–even below Kucinich–because he has no experience other than speechifying about changiness. If I wanted a president running based on their state legislature career, Obama wouldn’t stand a chance against Jackie Speier–but she couldn’t even win the Lt. Gov primary.

On an ideological standpoint, Obama has been cavelier in his repeated undermining of progressivism: giving cover to this corrupt GOP caucus (by blaming “Washington”), trying to thwart universal health care with his Harry and louise ads, underiming Social Security, failing to vote against the MoveOn censure, lumping unions in Iowain the same “special interest” category as oil companies–then embracing their support elsewhere, etc. Obama has compromised before we even began the negotiations. I don’t want a cowardly president like that.

I’m sure Obama speaks beautifully about hope. but I’ve had hope for a very long time. I want results!

simon

If Obama were a white man he would not be where he is, right now.

They would have nurtured him longer, if they were really interested, nurtured him like Bill Clinton.

I wonder why they pushed for him to be the candidate, he just isn’t ready, and is such an easy target for the republicans to beat…

Centrocitta

Obama is getting top billing from all media. Sounds fishy to me because everyone I have spoken to has either already voted for Hillary or is planning to. Here in Italy (near Rome), Italians started asking me back in October if I thought Hillary was going to win the general election. From this vantage point, it certainly looks like Europe is for Hillary.

gqmartinez

BTW, my reference to Jackie Speier and the Lt. Governor’s primary was the 2006 Democratic primary in california. Jackie Speier is one impressive lady!
TeakWoodKite

“And then there are people who say, `Well, he doesn’t believe in the Second Amendment,’ even though I come from a state — we’ve got a lot of hunters in downstate Illinois. And I have no intention of taking away folks’ guns.”

folks’ guns??? I’m a folk? …5 women killed just today! How many have died due to gun violence last year?

Yes, if I had to hunt for my food or form a ‘well reglated militia’. I see no reason to own a 50 cal. or AK or M16 etc. Personally, I would use a bow . No need to annouce yourself for a 5 mile radius.

I’m a folk? What? Happiness is a warm gun?

But then it has started already.

The Republican National Committee wasn’t waiting until then. Party spokesman Alex Conant quickly put out a statement calling Obama’s statement “misleading” in light of his 1996 statement

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080202/ap_on_el_pr/obama

Where is Obama on this? Attacking Hillary’s health care plan while his state just got F&^%ed at the drive up? You’d think that having the national podium he might make an issue of it. I WOULD.

24 Hours After Touting Clean Coal In SOTU, White House Drops Ambitious Clean Coal Project

“In 25 years on Capitol Hill, I have never witnessed such a cruel deception,” Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) said, hinting at the administration’s political considerations for the project’s demise. “When the city of Mattoon, Illinois, was chosen over possible locations in Texas, the secretary of energy set out to kill FutureGen.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/30/future-gen/

TeakWoodKite

La Opinion endorses Obama due ILLEGAL driver’s licenses. Great Republican talking point; Gaining a privilege based on the commission of a felony.

It is this commitment to the immigration issue which drove Obama to condemn the malicious lies made during the immigration debate, to understand the need for driver’s licenses, and to defend the rights of undocumented students by co-authoring the DREAM Act. The senator has demonstrated character by maintaining his position despite the hostile political climate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132×4346220

TeakWoodKite

http://www.impremedia.com/contact/

Ruben Keoseyan Joins ImpreMedia as
Publisher of La Raza Newspaper in Chicago

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/departments/business/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003696633

Michael Lafferty

This is a tough one for me.

I am a veteran of the Dean for America campaign, having ‘signed up’ so to speak, with Joe Trippi in Seattle on the Sleepless Summer Tour. Worked on the campaign in Iowa, New Hampshire, Arizona and Oregon until it was suspended pre-Wisconsin. I swore that I would never work for another candidate, and would only reluctantly vote for Kerry in the general election.

As it got down to the wire and seemed that Bush would enjoy another term, I spent endless hours in the last weeks working Oregon and Washington with Jim Rassman, who served in Vietnam with John Kerry, primarily appearing before groups of veterans.

Then came this cycle, and I got involved with the Edward 2008 campaign. Now that he has suspended his run for the nomination, I find myself facing a dilemma: while I am committed to voting for whichever Democratic candidate receives the nod at the convention, I cannot find a compelling reason to vote for EITHER Hillary Clinton or Barrack Obama – only several reasibs to vote against one or the other by voting for their opponent. I simply won’t do that.

I’ve come to the conclusion that if John Edwards appears on the Oregon primary ballot, he will get my vote. If he does not, no candidate will. I’m willing to advocate for one or the other post-Super Tuesday, but I won’t be involved in any other way in this cycle. I’ve given up my precinct captain slot, and may register as an independent. There will be no more political donations after those to Dodd and Edwards have been completed, and none to the Democratic Party, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, or its equivalent for the House of Representatives.

Once again, I feel that I and so many others have been cheated of the opportunity to voice our choice by voting in the primary election in this cycle, and likely next.

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

Michael, I was on the stage at the Sleepless / Seattle event. Wasn’t that the most amazing “happening” ever?! Wow. Howard Dean was truly blown away by the overflow crowd.

I’m glad you were for Edwards. What a fine choice. I hope you’ll consider Hillary, but take your time… it takes a while to get over losing one’s candidate. I remember vividly how I felt when Howard Dean’s campaign started going awry (thanks partly to John Kerry/Dick Gephardt’s dirty tricks and to Joe Trippi’s overspending of the funds). Nonetheless, it was a great, great experience, with memories I’ll always treasure.
http://OUTRAGEDBUTNOTSURPRISED bama_barrron

michael … i understand what you are saying … i feel your pain. yes, i said that! as an oregonian i sincerely doubt if our primary votes will count for much and i still plan to vote for edwards if that is the case … if it isnt and by some off chance it matters … i will vote for hillary. straight up … i trust her to work for the little people although many would disagree with my thinking.
dont wimp out on the democratic party … we have a wonderful senatorial primary coming up … me, i’m working for novick a true progressive … you can join us anytime. please think about it.
TheOtherWA

I understand too. Losing a candidate like Edwards is depressing. I haven’t decided who to support now, but next Sat is the WA caucus. Guess I have to make up my mind before then.

http://rwamend Rod Amend

So much to comment on!
I will caucus for Kucinich, for reasons explained below.

I agree that Obama is not prepared; do you remember how he described his health care plan at the last “debate”? It went something like this:
“Once upon a time some guys didn’t have health care (he probably meant “health insurance”). Mostly they didn’t have it because they couldn’t afford it or didn’t want to pay for it. We should give them some money so they can have it. But, if they don’t want it, that is ok too. (Not making this up.)

Hilary, like Bill and George, likes to rewrite history. See Stephen Zunes article today on Common Dreams in which he details how Hilary lied about bombing Iraq when Bill was president. To me, Hilary is a Republican wearing some Democratic clothes. There are other problems with Hilary, but I want to keep it short. I will not vote for her, period.

Now, my bar for a candidate is low. I will vote for someone who is willing to support and defend the Constitution and rule of law. Kucinich is/was willing to sponsor the impeachment measures, so he has my vote.

I think like Michael from Oregon; I will not donate to the party as long as its leadership is willing to let such lawlessness slide.

simon

But given we still face HUGE issues in Iraq, in the Middle East, in Russia, given the US infrastructure needs massive repairs, new legislation, global warming, who do you think will handle it best?

Obama?

Clinton will, she’s the smartest, she has the strongest grasp of the issues she faces, and she has never sold the public out, never done a bait and switch, which Obama has.

I’m not one for the pragmatic vote, but in this case, I can clearly see Clinton is the superior choice.

I also think she is open enough, at this point, to over rule her consultants, Obama does what he’s told, like Bush.

We really don’t want another President who mind is at the mercy of others, usually poorly informed, narcissistic, unsophisticated men.

Bush has Cheney, Addington and the Texas Group, would Obama have someone like Geffen, Rezko, and the Pritzker family?

shirin

“she has never sold the public out, never done a bait and switch”

Are you suggesting she has never lied to the public?

simon

No, I’m saying she hasn’t deliberately misled the public, in the manner Bush and Obama do, ie she isn’t endorsing UHC, knowing full well she has no intention of enacting any change.

Obama is not the candidate of hope, he is selling himself as such, from what I am reading, Obama would almost privatize Social Security, enact many right wing economic and social proposals — yet he’s the new JFK, right?

Bait and switch.

And Bush?

‘Nuff said.

lowdowndog

SusanUnPC, I caucused for Hillary in Iowa. Has Washington caucused before? If not, a word to the wise: The Obama people can get pretty aggressive with others if there are a lot of youthful passions let loose in an enclosed space. Whether your caucus is orderly or chaotic depends on the crowd control skills and impartiality of your temporary chair. Find out who it is and if he or she is an experienced caucus leader. Get acquainted and volunteer to help. Find out who Hillary’s precinct captain is and offer to help. Good luck and enjoy your caucus next Saturday.

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

As far as I know, we’ve had a caucus in WA State for decades, and the Democratic party will only choose delegates from the caucus. It’s all nonsense. We finally got back our primary after 1992, specifically because the voters agreed that the caucus automatically denies so many — the elderly, the disabled, those serving in the military, those out of state for any reason — the ability to participate.

Not surprisingly, in 2000 our state’s Democratic caucus had only 3% participation, while the primary saw 42% participation. Our state does not require voters to register by party like so may other states do. Because of this the party elders argue that it’s too easy for Republicans to vote as Dems in the primary (for the candidate they would most want their real party, the Repubs, to face and beat in the general election.) What the party doesn’t explain is why it isn’t just as likely for Repubs to “cross over” and vote in the Democratic caucus and engage in the same kind of shenanigans.

Our 2004 caucuses were well-attended. I think a lot of the reason was because there was so much support and excitement for Dean (I was a Deaniac.) And I am fully prepared to have to beat back the onslaught of Obamamaniacs at my caucus. But they won’t succeed with me. I’m caucusing for Edwards and if need be, I will vote “uncommitted”.

Whoever wins the nomination will get my vote in November but I figure the caucus (and the delegate-lonely primary) is my only opportunity to register my true preference.

I figure Edwards stood up for me and my values, so I’m going to stand up for him.

*It’s tough to be such a romantic.*

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

It’s just stupid. And that’s all I have to say about it.

‘cept I have no desire to see those 11 other people again. There were a bunch of weinies for Kerry —

“But Kerry is electable!”

“Why is that?”

“Because he is!”

It was so inane. It was obvious most of them got all their political news from TV. (I think I sneered at them.)

It was all I could do not to reach across the table and throttle those fucking wimps.

Then there was the grouchy old precinct committeewoman. Two people came in 15 minutes late. She told them to sit down and vote.

I said, “They can’t vote. They arrived too late. The rules clearly state that people must arrive by a certain time.”

“WHO ARE YOU????!!!,” she shrieked.

(Obviously, caucusing is not a desirable format for me to participate in.)

TeakWoodKite

A mock turtle, you are anything but SusanUnPC.

“Two people came in 15 minutes late. She told them to sit down and vote.”

That sounds like the start of a really good joke dying for a punchline or punishment. LOL

An informed electorate is

“The most effectual means of preventing [the perversion of power into tyranny are] to illuminate, as far as practicable, the minds of the people at large, and more especially to give them knowledge of those facts which history exhibits, that possessed thereby of the experience of other ages and countries, they may be enabled to know ambition under all its shapes, and prompt to exert their natural powers to defeat its purposes.” –Thomas Jefferson: Diffusion of Knowledge Bill, 1779. FE 2:221, Papers 2:526

http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1350.htm

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”– U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864

http://www.representativepress.org/electorate.html
http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

What a horrible experience you had! That woman should be reported to the party machinery (if they even care). Oh well, there’s always the expertly timed letter to the editor of a local newspaper…

http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

The only thing that saved us, Shoephone, was all the material we got from the Howard Dean campaign. We actually used the skit material, and did a mock caucus. Since I had to arrange for all that, I really learned the rules. That helped me challenge the old bat.

Others had similar experiences at other caucuses.

Another thing: I set up an Excel sheet on all of the precincts with each Meetup member listed under their precinct, based on the county’s information.

The day of the caucus, I went with one of my friends from the Meetup. She was in the same precinct as I. We thought. No, they told her. According to THEIR Democratic party maps. But, I said, the county map clearly shows that she’s in my precinct. Sorry, they said, she’s not in that precinct. But now we’re not sure which precinct she’s in. She can vote provisionally, but her vote may not be counted unless necessary. She got so discouraged. And she just sat quietly through the entire event.

If you want to hear a real HORROR story, I’ll tell you what the county party did to my daughter.

I don’t think I’ll ever get involved with them.

TrishB

Election impressions, even though I’m not voting next week. Ohio votes on 3/4. At this point for Hillary: me, mom, dad, sister, and my roomie. For either Hillary or Barack, my nephew. For McCain, my sister’s husband.

Mom, sis, and I have been Hillary at least since the Iowa loss, longer for me. Last week the nephew came home from freshman year for a long weekend. At the end of three hours in the car with his dad, he thought McCain sounded pretty good. Nephew also had a few comments about how he hears everyone call Hillary a bitch, and if so many people say it, well. . . . Yeah, that was nipped in the bud pretty damned quickly. My sister had more than a few issues with that and sent the nephew to all the candidate sites, for starters. I guess his first reaction was “McCain doesn’t support Roe v Wade,what’s wrong with him?”

simon

Bitch?

And what should an American President be?

Complacent, like Obama and Bush?

So she fights, what, the boys can’t take it?

shirin

I was prepared to vote for Edwards. Compared to Hillary and Obama, his plan for Iraq came closer to a full withdrawal, which is the only morally and practically viable approach. I believe he is far less likely to continue using military violence as an instrument of foreign policy, and in general appeared less likely to believe that the United States has a right to impose its will on foreign countries. And his domestic proposals look as good as or better than theirs.

Like Michael Lafferty, if Edwards is on the ballot in my state, I will vote for him. If he is not, I will choose “none-of-the-above” because, like Michael Lafferty, I cannot see a single reason to vote for one over the other.

And I have added the following items to my Syrian agenda:

1. Buy a house.
2. Hire servants.
3. Instruct them to prepare the house for November occupancy.
4. Go home and start packing.
5. Wait for November.

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

Can I come visit you in Syria? I’ve always wanted to go there.

What’s the Syrian weather like in November? Better than Seattle’s, I’ll bet.

shirin

Ahlan wa Sahlan! You are welcome any time, and stay as long as you like!

How the weather is depends a lot on where you are in Syria, but for the most part, it should be cool, but not yet cold.

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

It will probably feel like summer to me.

shirin

}

Centrocitta

I’m going to pack light. And also wait for November. Then I’m going home too — to speak up!

Cee

There is a reason that the undersea cables were cut in the Middle East and Asia

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0QUY/is_2004_July/ai_n6142317/pg_2

At the outset of the war, the Germans had five transatlantic cables that ran through the English Channel. One went to Brest in France, another to Vigo in Spain, one to Tenerife in North Africa and two to New York via the Azores. The English cable ship Telconia cut them all in England’s first offensive action in the war. This left a cable that ran between West Africa and Brazil that was largely American-owned that the Germans could use. In short order the allies ended that source of direct cable communications with the overseas world. Consequently, Germany was forced to use their powerful wireless station at Nauen, just a few miles outside Berlin. From this moment, German messages were routinely picked from the air and began pouring into the offices of British Naval Intelligence. In order to capture this flood of information, four new allied listening stations were established along the English coast with direct wires to Admiral Hall’s offices. The positive result from this investment could not be overemphasized.
lowdowndog

Don’t be surprised if John endorses Hillary after Super Tuesday. Like John, she is a bed-rock Democrat to the core. Obama is a Obamacan Republican. It’s time for disappointed Edwards people who lean toward Obama to cash in their 5 cent can of hope and get informed about his politics. Now I know why corporate media fawns over him: The Audiology of Hope: Dogwhistle Economics
http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/the-audiology-of-hope-dogwhistle-economics/

Compromising with Republicans, as Obama is too willing to do if he is president, will be just another crushing boot on the neck of lunch bucket working class Democrats who John and Hillary champion. Glenn Greenwald explains it: What “bipartisanship” in Washington means
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/01/30/bipartisanship/index.html

Cee

Many of his staff are supporting Obama…if we even have an election

LGBT Edwards Supporters Move to Obama
A critical mass of John Edwards’s LGBT steering committee is going public with support for Sen. Barack Obama over Sen. Hillary Clinton.
http://www.advocate.com/

Centrocitta

I feel more confidant that with Obama in the White House, an American that has a story to tell will be heard — loud and clear!

NB

Yeah, for the LGBT Edwards supporters moving to Obama, I have one name: Donnie McClurkin. I was offended by Obama’s willingnes to keep a bigot under his umbrella of unity. I don’t like to play nice with bigots.

I guess if the war is your main issue, though, and you think one speech in 2002, despite no other action, is enough to make someone the anti-war candidate then so be it…

shirin

The ongoing colonial aggression against Iraq IS my number one concern, and to anyone who has paid attention and listened carefully to Obama, he will not get the U.S. out of Iraq. His plan is almost identical to Hillary Clinton’s, and so is his record on Iraq.
simon

And people think pulling the troops out of Iraq would solve the ongoing problems Bush created, with no harm to the US? If you remove the bullet incorrectly, the patient could bleed to death, or die, right?

There has to be a plan, but all I see from the Obama group is simplistic analogue thinking, ie troops/no troops. What would someone like Joe Wilson suggest, or Gen Clark, once fully briefed?

IMO, the military HAS to be removed at some point, as it is, it’s acting as a wick to drain US resources, under the mismanagement of the worst administration ever, delusional Dick Cheney.

But anyone suggesting troops can be withdrawn, by America, upon the election of a new US president would be highly irresponsible and naive, exhibiting an appalling lack of foreign policy knowledge, the “liberal, or Ron Paul side” of Cheney’s simplistic coin of military/no military.

Smart people have to review the situation in Iraq, and it’s effect on American position in the Middle East and the world, it hasn’t been done yet. Given the consequences of team cheney’s horrific, simplistic, amateur war policy (that whole Mao thing seems to have gone over their heads), no one can say at this point what the next move should be, until Bush is out.

With the exception of resolution.

simon

I’m saying, as a voter, I would like to hear what someone like Wes Clark, or Joe Wilson, or another highly skilled diplomat or general, would recommend in regard to Iraq before committing my self to a candidate’s military position.

Bush created a whole new set of problems with his amateur war making, how can we solve the problems, correct them, show good faith to the world, restore our reputation, without further harming ourselves, or Iraq?

shirin

And screw your reputation. How many more Iraqis do you need to kill, and how much more destruction do you have to wreak on Iraq, and how much more of Iraq’s future do you have to destroy for your bloody reputation?

Iraq does not belong to you. You do not own it, you do have have any rights regarding Iraq, including staying there to save your reputation.

JUST GET OUT AND LEAVE IRAQ FOR IRAQIS.

simon

And how many more Iraqis would you kill by leaving to abruptly?

Is another Pol Pot situation acceptable, in Iraq this time, or should we learn from that experience, and try to prevent a slaughter, with the understanding full autonomy will be returned to the Iraqis?

And then we do it.

Why do you not try to see better, different solutions?

And understanding Clark brought some order to Kosovo, why cant we see what happens when a competent successful man runs the operation, before making a unilateral, overly emotional decision to immediately withdraw?

Bush, and cheney, and their group are a joke, they couldn’t find their assholes with both hands. Why would you judge future conditions based on past incompetents, and in this, I include the mistakes of Vietnam?

Fer starters, anyway.

The reality is Bush and Cheney created a huge unfortunate mess, run by the stupidest white men, ever, essentially shooting Iraq in the heart. Acknowledging that reality, a bullet must now be removed, by the surgeons, leaving the Iraqi patient alive, autonomous and healthy.

And America still has the resources to insure Iraq’s good health, without damaging itself.

shirin

Simon, this projection of potential “Pol Pot” situation is nothing more than self-serving pure speculation, and is being used as an excuse to remain in Iraq.

You are the cause of the problems in Iraq. You cannot be the solution.

Furthermore, the available historical and contemporary evidence indicates that when you leave IF ANYTHING the situation will calm down. It will calm down for a number of reasons, including but not limited to the following:

1. The massive, constant, deadly, destructive, and destabilizing violence that is coming directly from your military will cease completely. (By the way, did you know that The Surge™ has included a seven-fold increase in air attacks, including attacks on urban population centers, by your military?)

2. Attacks on occupation forces will cease once there are no more occupation forces to attack. That means the majority of the attacks will cease, since, contrary to the impression the propagandists would like you to have, the majority of attacks not committed BY your forces are targetted AGAINST your forces, not against civilians.

3. The primary destabilizing factor, the American occupation, will no longer be present.

4. The primary perpetrator and catalyst for violence, the American occupation, would no longer be present.

And Simon, look at what happened in Basra as soon as the British left the city. According to Iraqis in Basra there was an immediate improvement in security. According to British analysts there was a 90% decrease in violence within days of the British withdrawal. That there are still problems in Basra does not alter the fact that the situation has vastly improved.

And finally, Simon, LISTEN TO THE IRAQIS, PLEASE. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis not only want you gone, and the sooner and more completely the better, THE GREAT MAJORITY OF IRAQIS ARE CONVINCED THAT THEY WILL BE SAFER AND BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOU THERE. Who knows more about Iraq and Iraqis, Simon, you or the Iraqi people? Or even Joe Wilson and Wes Clark (neither of whom is, last time I checked, as specialist on Iraq, despite Joe Wilson’s diplomatic tenure there) or the Iraqi people?

And who has more right, Simon, to make decisions about Iraq? You? Joe Wilson? Wes Clark? David Petraeus? Hillary Clinton? Or the Iraqi people?

A

TeakWoodKite

Shirin

THE GREAT MAJORITY OF IRAQIS ARE CONVINCED THAT THEY WILL BE SAFER AND BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOU THERE.

Why is it in your post the word “you” is prevelant? Simon is in Iraq?

Or YOU meaning those “Zionist Americans?”

To simon’s point do you expect 250,000 people to get “Beamed up”? Here to today gone tommorrow? What?

I am honestly curious what you see as the Logistics of leaving.

Shirin

You might ask Simon why it is that in his posts the word “we” is prevalent. That should lead you to the answer as to why in my replies the word “you” is prevalent. }

And please do not put words into my mouth, especially when doing so conveniently assigns me to a stereotype that then allows my statements and my views to be dismissed.

TeakWoodKite

No intention of putting words anywhere.
Nor to put my nose under this tent.
That said “And then we do it.”
I took “we” to mean the leadership of the United States. (Duly elected, one hopes) If you mean “don’t include me” in your “we” , OK.

I am honestly curious what you see as the Logistics of leaving.

Simon: Why it is that in your posts the word “we” is prevalent?

Fair is fair.
simon

We?

America, American family.

The collective of YOU, as in YOU need to leave Iraq.

Right?

Sorry, your whole argument is “America sucks.”

You are willfully choosing to ignore salient points, which tells me you’re not interested in debate, your arguments are tautological.

When you argue in this manner, you’re simply seen as uninformed, people shut you out, they see you, you don’t see them, and you give them a handle by which to manipulate you, even if you think you’re being clever. You’re drowning in your own foam. Might want to think about it.

It’s difficult to make good decisions when you think you’re in control, but you’re not.

shirin

Yes, “we” as the collective that is the United States, and “you” was a response to that “we”. There is nothing hostile or vindictive in it, merely using the same terms of reference as Simon was.

And no, my argument is not “America sucks”, but of course it is terribly convenient to say it is, because then you are not obligated to address my real argument, which I suggest you are unable to do. It’s just so much easier, isn’t it, to find a way to dismiss it as anti-American than it is to actually examine it.
shirin

And by the way, Simon, regarding your allegation of “willfully ignoring salient points”, you have no way of knowing what is willful, and what is not.

And you are the one who has – willfully or not – ignored salient points, and refused to answer salient questions, even after I have repeated them ad nauseum. The fact that you have attributed to me willfullness in ignoring what you consider salient points tends to indicate that in your case it HAS been willful, although I cannot be certain of that, of course.

shirin

“Why do you not try to see better, different solutions?”

Why do you not listen to what Iraqis say about their own situation? Why do not listen to what Iraqis want? Why do you give more credence to what Americans say about Iraq than what the majority of the Iraqi people have said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again? Are you suggesting that Americans know and understand more about Iraq than Iraqis do?

“And understanding Clark brought some order to Kosovo, why cant we see what happens when a competent successful man runs the operation, before making a unilateral, overly emotional decision to immediately withdraw?”

You are using an example involving apples to try to support an argument about oranges. The situation in Iraq is not and has never been equivalent to the situation in Kosovo, and General Clark’s actions in Kosovo were not in any way equivalent to the U.S.’s actions in Iraq since 2003. Just for starters, the United States initiated the violence and turned a stable, if bad, situation into an unstable, and far, far, far far, worse situation. That is not even remotely like what happened in Kosovo.

simon

We’ve been dealing with the Bush administration, American retards, you’re basing your conclusions on an aberration, a retarded aberration at that.

Enough said.

The cultural dynamics of guerrilla warfare are often the same, driven by the same behavioral characteristics, ie what did Kim il Jung have in common with Che, or even Milosevic?

The first thing you do is look for those behavioral similarities, selfish greed and stupidity are the same in any culture. For instance, say, Kim il Jung shares many personality traits with George Bush, jr, and Gen Musharraf.

Once the behavioral dynamic is understood, then cultural differences come into play, which is why bringing in someone like Joe Wilson, an expert on Iraq, would help tremendously.

As it stands, Bush gets advice from AEI, not a hotbed of clear thinkers.

The world has had to manage the Iraqi situation through David Addington, and a corrupt Dick Cheney. Too many factors at this point are unknown, corrections cannot be made without proper information. I think a review of the Iraqi situation, done correctly, with a goal toward American withdrawal, after an honest attempt is made to stabilize the country, acceptable.

Did it occur to you other nations, differing Iraqi ethnic groups, have a vested interest in the Iraqi oil, too, and would think nothing of further destruction, or population purges, keeping the battle and social destruction alive indefinitely through sabotage? In this manner no one gets the oil, or profit, including the Iraqis.

Again, should we leave it to Putin, to Ju?

They will scavenge, violently, if America is to leave abruptly.

Is that acceptable to you?

I wish the invasion had never taken place, everyone does, the Iraqis are victims of war crimes.
simon

The dynamics of both wars are the same.

Perhaps you should start with the similarities, adjust, and move on, from there.

But first, honest evaluation is needed, and that hasn’t been done. Don’t be taken with your own idealism.

NB

In fact, both Wes Clark and Joe Wilson, are ardent supporters of Hillary Clinton and have said again and again that they feel she is the only candidate who will be able to get us out of this debacle in a responsible way. They have both been campaigning actively for her…

shirin

Wow, well, whooopeeeedoooo! That just changes everything – NOT.

Has anyone here really listened to what Hillary Clinton has said about her plan for Iraq, and looked realistically at what it means? Go ahead and support her all you want. It might be absolutely true that she is the best of a very dismal lot. However, she is not going to get you out of Iraq any time soon.

As for getting out of Iraq in the most “responsible” way possible, give me a break. What is irresponsible is staying there and continuing to try to manipulate the Iraqis into being what you need them to be in order to feel better about yourselves and your image in the world.

Take your heads out of your own rear ends, stop being so damned self-centered and listen to what Iraqis are trying to tell you. THEY are the ones whose lives and futures and country are at stake, not you. The Iraqi people have told you repeatedly what you should do. Stop thinking about your bloody selves, and give Iraq back to the Iraqis.
simon

When they first endorsed her, I really didn’t think anything of it, in fact I was disappointed Clark didn’t support Edwards.

But now, as the primary season has emerged, I am glad they support her. If she becomes President she will have some good people around her, SMART people, a little more clued into how the world works, as compared to any other candidate.

And that is good for the American people.

I saw Joe Wilson interviewed about Iraq, and I was highly impressed with his knowledge of the social and political dynamics there, something foreign to the Bush administration.

He reminded me how smart Americans really are, we’ve all been dwelling in Bush’s house of retards, and we’ve forgotten we can problem solve, intelligently, using precepts of liberty, as opposed to violence.

shirin

“people think pulling the troops out of Iraq would solve the ongoing problems Bush created, with no harm to the US?”

Sorry to say so, but here is a perfect example of typical American thinking, even among nice liberals and progressives. You have turned Iraq into a hell disaster for Iraqis, and yet in the end it’s still all about you, isn’t it?

“If you remove the bullet incorrectly, the patient could bleed to death, or die, right?”

Unclear here who in your mind is the patient, you or Iraq. Based on what precedes this, the patient is you since the only concern you have expressed is about harm to the U.S. However, assuming the patient you are referring to is actually Iraq and Iraqis, according to every single indicator, including every single poll conducted from the beginning until now, the overwhelming majority of Iraqis, regardless of sect or ethnicity, think that the correct way to remove the bullet is as soon and as rapidly as possible. The vast majority of Iraqis regardless of sect or ethnicity believe that they will be safer and better off in every respect with you gone, and the sooner the better. So, who knows better about Iraq than the majority of Iraqis?

“all I see from the Obama group is simplistic analogue thinking, ie troops/no troops.”

Since when? Last time I checked, Obama was tracking pretty close to Hillary on Iraq, and Hillary would be keeping lots and lots of troops, including plenty in a combat role, indefinitely.

“What would someone like Joe Wilson suggest, or Gen Clark, once fully briefed?”

With all respect to Joe Wilson, and whatever respect is due to Gen Clark, what makes them better judges of Iraq than the majority of Iraqis who are living there now?

“IMO, the military HAS to be removed at some point, as it is, it’s acting as a wick to drain US resources”

Typical, self-centered American thinking. The military has to be removed not because it is causing a hell-disaster for Iraqis, not because it is destroying an entire, formerly perfectly viable state, not because it has utterly devastated an entire society, but because it is draining U.S. resources!

“But anyone suggesting troops can be withdrawn, by America, upon the election of a new US president would be highly irresponsible and naive, exhibiting an appalling lack of foreign policy knowledge, the “liberal, or Ron Paul side” of Cheney’s simplistic coin of military/no military.”

Yeah, well, it is fascinating that those Americans with all that wonderful “foreign policy knowledge” – few if any of whom have even bothered to learn the language spoken in Iraq – are considered better authorities on what should be done in Iraq than the people who have the most knowledge of Iraq – i.e. the overwhelming majority of Iraqi people.

“Smart people have to review the situation in Iraq, and it’s effect on American position in the Middle East and the world

More standard-issue, self-absorbed American thinking. Dude, it’s not ABOUT you. And by the way, getting out of Iraq as soon and as rapidly as possible is going to hurt your position in the Middle East a lot less than staying there will, that I can absolutely guarantee.

“no one can say at this point what the next move should be, until Bush is out.”

Sure they can. Do what the majority of Iraqis have been asking you to do from the beginning. Remember the graffiti that began appearing weeks after the invasion that said “thanks America, now go home”?

GO THE FUCK HOME. And do yourselves and the world a favor, and stay home.

simon

I would answer your essay point by point, but essentially yours is a specious, tautological argument of “dude,” go home.

America will leave, and who will fill the void in this now devasted country? Iraq’s economy is fully supported by American tax dollars, did you know? Where would the money and job creation come from, who would help pay to resotre order, help form a democratic society, like America did for Japan, say, after ww2?

The egalitarian Chinese, those liberty lovin Russians, the mafia, British Petroleum?

It’s not realistic to think America is the only aggressor, now, is it, America the only power with interest in the area?

But at least Americans will fight for, and consider, Iraqi human rights, in addition to the money, and I dont mean Bush, of course.

It’s just DUMB, isnt it?

Shirin

1. “Dude, go home” and “dude, when you leave things will start to get better here” is what the overwhelming majority of the Iraqi people who are in Iraq have been saying over and over and over and over again. Are you saying that Americans understand Iraq better than the majority of Iraqis who live there do? Are you saying that Americans have more right to decide Iraq’s short and/or long term fate than the majority of Iraqis who live there do?

2. “America will leave, and who will fill the void in this now devasted country?”

Trust me, the “void” that America would leave would be a very welcome void that most Iraqis will enjoy very, very much.

“Iraq’s economy is fully supported by American tax dollars, did you know?”

WHAT economy?! Are you KIDDING ME?!

“Where would the money and job creation come from, who would help pay to resotre order, help form a democratic society…”

Pardon me, but this is absolutely the most risible thing I have heard around here in a long time! WHAT money? WHAT job creation? WHAT democratic society? Unemployment has steadily INCREASED thanks to America, the country has gone from stable and reasonably orderly to complete blood-soaked CHAOS thanks to America. And as for democracy – give me a break! America never was and never will help form a democratic society in Iraq. Even if that were the goal, which it never has been, America doesn’t know how to do that, and in any case it is not America’s right or business to tell Iraqis how their country should be run.

simon

You haven’t given any concrete examples or proofs of how your suppositions will realistically work, just a lot if “I hope.”

Again, Yankee go home is not a viable argument for withdrawal.

Have you thought of supporting Obama?

He floats on gas, too.

Anything less than some form of democracy, of tribal cooperation, will leave Iraq a future Soviet, or Chinese, satellite nation, if even.

It is not my intention to disrupt this site, our discussion is through, you are nowhere, now, arent you?

Shirin

What suppositions? I am not the one making suppositions, you are. I am listening to the majority of the Iraqi people now living in Iraq – the people who are best equipped to assess their own situation, and the people who have the greatest stake in what happens there – and I am looking at the facts and realities on the ground, and drawing conclusions.

And please do stop putting words into my mouth and inventing positions that I have not taken in order to give yourself some argument. It doesn’t help you.

“,i>Again, Yankee go home is not a viable argument for withdrawal.”

Inventing stuff that is easier to refute than my actual arguments does not help you.

Neither does making little ad hominem jabs – something you have increasingly resorted to – help your argument.

“Anything less than some form of democracy, of tribal cooperation, will leave Iraq a future Soviet, or Chinese, satellite nation, if even.”

This is nothing more than a supposition with nothing substantial to back it up. In fact, history tends to refute it. Iraq has never had a democracy of any kind, and yet has never been a satellite nation – has refused, in fact, to ever accept that situation. And perhaps you are unaware that there is no more Soviet Union? Or are you anticipating that the Soviet Union will be reconstituted soon?! In any case, if Iraq DID become a Soviet (assuming a pending Soviet reconstitution) or Chinese satellite nation, would the Iraqi people be worse off than they are now with the Americans? I don’t see how they could be.

And, Simon, I care about the welfare and future of Iraq and the Iraqi people, because I have a stake in it, and the Americans never been good for Iraq and Iraqis. On the contrary, the more involved the United States has been in Iraq the worse things have been for both the country and its people. That is demonstrable. Therefore, it is in the best interest of Iraq and its people for the United States to get out and stay out of Iraq’s business.

Cee

I have one name: Donnie McClurkin.

NB,

They aren’t offended. Next?

shirin

The only way to minimize the harm you do to Iraq is to simply get the hell out as quickly as possible. The longer you stay the more harm you do.

Neither Wes Clark nor Joe Wilson is qualified to speak for Iraq or Iraqis, and the Iraqis have spoken for themselves over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And every time they have spoken they have stated loudly and clearly that they not only want you gone, and the sooner the better, the overwhelming majority of them believe they will be safer with you gone. Do you think Wes Clark and Joe Wilson, two Americans who see everything from from an American center, know more than Iraqis do about Iraq and Iraqis and what is best for them?

NB

I hear what you are saying, but I think we also need to be careful in how we get out. I wasn’t for the war when it started, but now that we are there, we have to make sure that we leave both as quickly AND as smartly as we can. It would be a real mistake IMHO to rush out of there and leave a hot bed of terrorism to fester….Iraq was NOT a breeding ground for terrorism when we went in, but it is indeed a breeding ground for terrorism now…if we miscalculate, we will end up with a disaster on our hands later on. Plans for reconstruction are also crucial to this effort and the only person I have heard mention reconstruction and the fate of Iraqis once we leave is Hillary.

shirin

What part of the longer you stay there the worse it gets is not penetrating? It is your presence that is creating the problems, and it is your absence that will allow the Iraqi people to eventually put an end to it.

When you see that you are in a hole way over your head, the first thing to do is to stop digging, and the second thing to do is to get the hell out of the hole as quickly as you can.

You are the cause of the problems, and you can never, ever in a million years be the solution, no matter how many surges you have.

Iraq does not belong to you, and you don’t know how to fix things, you only know how to break them. Please, please, please, I beg you to just get out.
shirin

PS You are smart enough to realize that what you are hearing about Iraq is 99.9% bullshit propaganda anyway. According to your lovely government, your lovely military, and your lovely media everything there is about terrorism when the fact is that very little if any of what is going on there is about terrorism at all, but something else entirely. Even Al Qa`eda in Iraq has nothing to do with Al Qa`eda.

I just don’t have the patience to go over this with you right now in detail, but there is little or no terrorism going on in Iraq, unless, as I do, you consider that your forces and their proxies are committing terrorist acts when they bomb population centers and crash their way into people’s homes. The majority of the attacks not committed by the occupation forces and their proxies are committed against the occupation forces, and that by definition is not terrorism. The factional fighting that is taking place in Iraq now is not terrorism, at least not of the sort you fear will develop a “hotbed”. So where is this potential hotbed of terrorism in Iraq? It just isn’t there.
Cee

NB,

The bastards who planned this don’t want to leave until Iraq is divided and permanent bases are installed.

Am I the only one who wants to know who really strapped women with remote control devices to attack Shia AND Sunni citizens?

Divide and conquer.

simon

Women with Down’s Syndrome, no less.

Who sets up retarded women as suicide bombers?

Who would DO such a thing?

Centrocitta

…..Women with Down’s Syndrome, no less…..

Pure propaganda. There is no proof whatsoever that these women had Down’s Syndrome. Furthermore, this genetic disorder is not common in the Middle East. Down’s Syndrome occurs as a result of incest between fathers and daughters. Since Muslim men can have up to five wives, would would they have a need to sleep with their own daughters? Again, propaganda.

TeakWoodKite

What ever “proof” was required got blown away. Along with a lot of other people and animals.

Rape and incest does not exist in Muslim society?

Centrocitta

Exactly, the “proof” got blown away. There is a lot of Down’s Syndrome in the Mediterranean, i.e., Greece, Italy, France, Spain, Portugal. Note these are non-Muslim countries where polygamy is forbidden. DS can show up as far removed as seven generations from the original incestuous parents. I’m just saying that Down’s Syndrome would be less prevalent in a Muslim society. The entire report on DS women as suicide bombers is sensationalism. The propagandists would have been more believable if they said the women suffered from Schizophrenia, but of course nobody ever said the occupiers were the smartest people around.

simon

It seems your trying to disparage propaganda with more propaganda.

You might be right, but, you know, you cant dismiss the incident with a simple statistical recitation via misconstrued perception.

All in all, it seems as if I see shallow pretense, specious knowledge masquerading as intellect, and somehow, for some reason, I’m expected to buy it.

I don’t, of course, the reasoning is incorrect, I guess you’re either smart enough to get it, or you’re not.

Not you, of course, Centrocitta, or anyone who posts here. I’m thinking more of Obama supporters, say. Once the foundation is flawed, you’re never correct.

I look forward to your posts, btw, you are brilliant.

Shirin

Teak, of course rape and incest exist in Muslim societies. However, in even a somewhat healthy Muslim society, they are likely to be significantly less common than in some other societies because the nature of the society and the family structure makes it more difficult to conceal such things, and because the taboos and penalties for such behaviour are so deep and so extremely heavy.

Centrocitta

So I was right again. I really do have good insight, don’t I, for not relying on statistics but merely looking around me in order to make my own conclusions. The information is there. You just have to know how to interpret it.

shirin

Centrocita, meaning no disrespect to you, you don’t have even the most basic information about Muslim societies, as demonstrated by your claim that Muslim men can have five wives.

Furthermore, it is all too easy to come to very strange conclusions based on “looking around you” and listening to gossip.

And by the way, it generally takes several generations of consistent incest for genetic anomalies to begin to show up, and even then they tend to remain rare.

Centrocitta

Shirin, I beg to differ with you that I don’t have any knowledge of Muslim societies considering the fact that I was married to one.

As far as listening to gossip, it depends on who’s doing it. If it comes from the residents of a very old village, for example, and it’s been passed down from generation to generation, you can pretty much believe it’s valid.

Also, if you care to look at a previous post, I did say that DS can manifest as far removed as seven generations from the original incestuous couple.

TeakWoodKite

penalties for such behaviour are so deep and so extremely heavy.

For the perp or victim? I ask because of recent reports. I admit to my cultural ignorance in advance. Thanks

shirin

On the contrary, if it is possible to discover the identity of those two women, then it should be possible to determine whether they had Down’s syndrome or not.

And by the way, the fact that there were two of them would tend to make the story less credible. Unlike in the United States, people with Down’s syndrome are not so visible in Iraq, there are not, especially right now, programs for them, and they are unlikely to be found together. That is particularly the case with women. I am not saying it is completely out of the question that someone or some group in Iraq was 1) sufficiently evil, and 2) able to simultaneously locate, separate from their families, and get the cooperation of two women with Down’s syndrome. It just isn’t terribly likely. Further, we have heard these kinds of sensationally shocking and disgusting stories before about this kind of use of developmentally disabled people and children as suicide bombers, and I am not aware of a single one of them that has ever been confirmed. The whole thing strains credulity, and is also a standard way of demonizing the “enemy”.

TeakWoodKite

demonizing the “enemy”. Victims all.
I know it when I see it.

shirin

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

simon

He’s saying, I believe, that you’re spinning.

And you are.
Shirin

Well, if it means so much to you to believe that the “enemy” will do any horrible thing, then by all means be my guests. I have seen too much of this form of demonization coming from both sides in conflicts. I have heard stories about Zionists slitting open the bellies of pregnant Palestinian women and yanking out the fetuses. I have heard stories of Israeli soldiers triumphantly holding babies in the air and lopping off their heads in front of their mothers. And I have heard stories about similar unspeakable acts on the part of Americans. Absent real evidence, I do not buy them. And by the same token, absent real evidence, I do not buy stories of “terrorists” using developmentally disabled people or children as human bombs.

I also know something about Iraqi society and how it works, and can use logic to decide what is more and what is less likely to be true.

Show me something besides the word of military propagandists and Iraqi stooges, and I will accept that the story is factual. Otherwise, I will continue to question it.
Shirin

PS I find it interesting how readily – eagerly even – Americans will accept any horror stories however outlandish that they are told about the Muslim enemy while insisting that their troops are one and all good, pure, all-American boys and girls who only do bad things because they are driven to temporary insanity by unbearable pressures.

And yet I am the one who is spinning simply because I reserve judgment pending evidence. Riiiiight!
TeakWoodKite

demonizing the “enemy”. Victims all.
I know it when I see it.

1) demonizing the “enemy”. occurs when reasonable individuals fail or refuse to communicate, irrespective of the the facts or circumstance in question.

2) Victims all.
a) The Iraqis people
b) The Americans people
c) The International community
and most importantly,
d) The Truth.

3)I know it when I see it.
a)Refering to pornography; such as individuals forcefully or by choice inflicting death or injury on innocents.
b)Propaganda, Spin and lies; overt or by ommision
c) Poverty of; mind, body, spirt ,imagination and reason.

I stuck my nose “in the Tent”;because of the use of “YOU” being used in a vindictive manner.

Simon, is and has been against this invasion and occupation of Iraq.Being aware of this I did not understand why he was being treated to such contempt without citation.

I have not read any posts at NQ that state we should not leave Iraq.

I am honestly curious what people at NQ see as the Logistics of Leaving; as a way of advancing the “converation” since we all agree The US Military WILL leaving Iraq and have many obligations in that regard. May we learn from our differences that “we” means all of us.
Shirin

Teak,

1) I am disappointed to see you making certain types of unfortunate negative assumptions. My use of “you” in the context we are referring to is never vindictive (by the way, I might get very, very angry about certain things, but I am not a vindictive person, as just about anyone who knows me well will confirm – it’s not that I don’t have plenty of negative and/or annoying traits, it is just that vindictiveness is not part of my nature).

My use of the second person in the context we are referring to is virtually ALWAYS a conscious response to someone else’s use of the first person. If you had bothered before making your not-very-charitable assumptions to look at the comments of Simon’s to which I was replying, you would have noticed that he consistently used the first person “we”, and that, not some kind of vindictiveness, is why I used the second person “you”.

2. I am aware that Simon is not a fan of the Iraq adventure, and am therefore always surprised that he is so hostile to my suggestion that leaving as soon and as quickly as possible is the correct course of action for the sake of all concerned. It is not so much that he disagrees with my view, it is that he appears completely closed-minded about the majority Iraqi view of what should happen, and the reality that the Americans are the very, very last people who can fix this thing.

3. How very interesting that you felt Simon was being treated with contempt since I felt Simon was consistently dismissing not only my views, but more importantly those of the overwhelming majority of Iraqis living – or rather trying to live – in Iraq, and that he was showing not only absolute disregard, but complete contempt for those views, as if the only opinions that matter were those of Americans, and Iraqis were not capable of understanding or deciding for themselves about themselves.

4. One of the problems is that not all of us seem to understand in the same way what leaving means. Some of us seem to think it means sort of leaving, but staying also in order to make sure that Americans don’t lose out too badly on the deal. Others of us seem to thing it means sort of leaving, but staying also in order to make sure that Iraqis do what Americans think they ought to do.

5. For what it is worth, your nasty little attempt to stereotype me with that “Zionist Americans” remark was very disappointing and quite frankly hurtful. I would have preferred to believe that you had just a bit more respectful understanding of me than that. It is sad to realize that you do not. I am sorry you find it necessary to put me in some kind of pre-constructed box. I had thought you were different. Guess I was wrong.
TeakwoodKite

Shirin, I offer my apologies, if I in anyway, my words were hurtful or insensitive.
I do have a great deal of respect for your views and three times attempted to ask you, stipulating to reality that we will be leaving Iraq, how you see that occuring.
I also admire your efforts in working for the aid of Iraqi children and dedication to your views.
In closing what ever motivation my words are assigned they were not intended to stereo-type anyone, and doing so doing so does not advance our understanding and that is what I meant, in part, by “victims all”.

Shirin

Centrocita, I don’t have time today for another “kosher egg” type of discussion with you, but your comment is filled with demonstrably incorrect information.

1. I don’t know what the occurrence of Down’s Syndrome is in the Middle East, and I daresay neither do you. I WOULD be interested in seeing any studies you might be able to refer to, however, that would provide this information. I am sure such studies do exist.

2. As I recall, maternal age is implicated as a greater factor in Down’s syndrome than is incest between father’s and daughters, but I will double check my information when I have time.

3. Islam does not allow a man to have five wives simultaneously.

4. Having multiple wives simultaneously is not about, nor does it necessarily lead to constant availability of sex, or perpetual sexual satisfaction.

4. Incest is not something that occurs as a result of lack of other sexual opportunities, nor is it prevented by availability of abundant sexual opportunities.

I am not convinced by the claims of an Iraqi stooge of the occupation or of the American military, both of which are not well known for their veracity, but your argument is full of holes and also not convincing.

Centrocitta

Shirin, Maternal Age is talked about. Incest between father and daughter is NOT talked about — so it’s not likely to be the modern, scientific cause for DS. But I can tell you that I live in a place where there are a good number of these cases. Many are in small villages where families have lived for generations and people DO whisper. Some of the cases are borderline and these individuals marry non DS spouses and have their own kids so the genetic defect keeps propagating. Please note, the place where I live does not permit polygamy. It’s a strictly monogamous society where divorce is still not very common. All of your reading and investigating is not going to equal what I know from first hand experience because I see it every day. But I also agree with you and do not believe this ridiculous story about suicide bombers having Down’s Syndrome.

shirin

“Maternal Age is talked about. Incest between father and daughter is NOT talked about — so it’s not likely to be the modern, scientific cause for DS.”

Then why did you originally state that “Down’s Syndrome occurs as a result of incest between fathers and daughters” (your exact words) without mentioning at all the confirmed primary cause, which is maternal age? And by the way, if memory serves, science has established pretty clearly why older mothers are more likely to produce Down’s children.

“All of your reading and investigating is not going to equal what I know from first hand experience because I see it every day.”

Anecdotal evidence, which is, at best, what you are presenting – and we have only your word for it – is not convincing, especially in the face of an abundance of scientific evidence.

And more to the point, this has absolutely nothing to do with the frequency of Down’s syndrome in Muslim societies.

“But I also agree with you and do not believe this ridiculous story about suicide bombers having Down’s Syndrome.”

I don’t know whether it is a ridiculous story or not. All I have said is that I am not buying it simply on the word of professional liars and their Iraqi minions.

Shirin

There is absolutely no evidence that those women had down’s syndrome other than the word of the American military propagandists and an Iraqi stooge of the occupation. Therefore, I will withhold credulity until I see some evidence.

For the time being I do not buy as fact that ANYONE strapped bombs on anyone with down’s syndrome or any other sort of mental disability.

simon

“Americans suck” is just not a viable arguement, dude.

No one is asking them to speak for Iraq, what do you think will happen to Iraq if there is an immediate withdrawal, who will fill the void?

Iran? Russia? British Petroleum? Who?

If America leaves, all problems will be solved, and the Iraqis have the resources to rebuild, with no American assistance, the Iraqis being as innocent and simple as children, the international community functioning pure of heart and mind, and you, their spokesman, can vouch for everyone — yanqui, go home.

Who is speaking for the Iraqis?

You.

You arent realistic, or you are deliberately disingenuous, showing a breathtaking simplicity of thought, of ignorance.

The idea is to realistically help Iraq to set up an independent government, in spite of the tremendous issues, corruption among them.

An chaotic middle east is just one big Pakistan.

Set a real withdrawal date, and respect it.

I mean, please join the discussion, but you’re just as ignorant as the neocons.
ybnormal

Well, this is one of the more entertainingly bizarre threads I’ve read in a while.

Down Syndrome – incest?

Doesn’t everyone know science has confirmed the cause as impregnation by aliens from space ships, after they abduct lesbian Nazi hookers and force them into weight loss programs?

Seriously, incest is not a scientifically acknowledged risk factor as a cause. As for seven generations – someone is reading a figure of speech in a bible passage while listening to family rumors, and getting 2+2 = 5

simon

Ah, that’s where they come from…

I thought it was Pittsburgh.

Alien Neofeminst nazi lesbians from Pittsburgh, now settled on the outer hebrides, in cahoots with British Petroleum to form a new world order, and steal your shoes, commit acts of incest with their Muslim brother slaves, to bear children affected with downs syndrome, who are then used in brazen and horrific acts of terrorism, to scare the bejeezus out of dick cheney, forcing him to suspend the Constitution and hire Rush Limbaugh, to protect us all.

but really dick cheney is an alien neofeminist lesbian,too, THAT is the kicker, planning to retire to the outer hebrides after gaining control of all the worlds oil, and all the worlds shoes, and all the worlds marijuana.

Dick likes to have a good time.

But they didn’t plan any further than that, as neofeminist lesbian nazis arent known for their organizational skills, and they smoke too much pot.

That’s how you know it’s them, the lack of organization, the smell of pot and a penchant for the disco…which brings us to…

Obama!

stay tuned…

Or something like that…

Right?

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

ROFL!

Shirin

My favourite is still the Great Kosher Egg Conspiracy.

simon

Unfamiliar with it.

Where can I reference it?

I love a conspiracy, especially involving eggs.

arwe

I think the fact that Hillary is even still in the running says much about her direct appeal to the voters because the media has been against her from the start and it gets louder and nastier as time goes on. Even when she was way ahead, no mention of her lead in the polls was unaccompanied by a negative comment. The entire Democratic primary results in Florida went entirely unmentioned on PBS’s News Hour. Sorry, ignoring over one and half million voters who went to the trouble to vote even though they were told their votes didn’t count is impressive by any standard and deserves a passing comment no matter what the DNC has ruled. I truly don’t think an Obama win would have escaped notice. Just sayin’. (OK down off that hobby horse).
Obama has told us ad nauseam about his opposition to Iraq in 2002 all the while exhorting us to look to the future, the past doesn’t matter.
My reasons for supporting Hillary are numerous but include her health care plan, her stand on Social Security, her support for voter enfranchisement, her immigration plan, her willingness to stand up for free speech and vote. I like that she can discuss just about any problem extensively and knowledgeably when asked. Anyone who doesn’t know where she stands on an issue just hasn’t asked. To quote Jane Hamsher(sp), she will be willing to discuss any subject to the point of catatonia if you wish. I LIKE a wonk.
I want someone supremely competent in the WH. I want someone who believes universal health care is an imperative and a core value. And I can go on for hours on the subject of why I want Hillary.
That said, someone in his (their) infinite wisdom decided that Nebraska needed to be IMPORTANT and devised an open (Democrat for a day nonsense) caucus for 2/9. They assure me that this has been much discussed and well advertised. Since I don’t watch commercial television, I only noticed a few small articles in the paper. I suspect Obama/Edwards activist from Iowa are going to run the thing. I need to locate a Hillary person for some information for strategy. The silly thing is , we still have to go to the primary in May to vote for state offices. I view caucuses as a throwback to the days when the men went to town to drink and smoke and get a little politicking done while the little lady stay home a watch the children.
It’s late and I’m rambling.

Cee

I want someone supremely competent in the WH. I want someone who believes universal health care is an imperative and a core value. And I can go on for hours on the subject of why I want Hillary.

Robert Reich…

Why is HRC stooping So Low?

I’m becoming increasingly concerned about the stridency and inaccuracy of charges in Iowa — especially coming from my old friend. While I’m as hard-boiled as they come about what’s said in campaigns, I just don’t think Dems should stoop to this. First, HRC attacked O’s plan for keep Social Security solvent. Social Security doesn’t need a whole lot to keep it going – it’s in far better shape than Medicare – but everyone who’s looked at it agrees it will need bolstering (I was a trustee of the Social Security Trust Fund ten years ago, and I can vouch for this). Obama wants to do it by lifting the cap on the percent of income subject to Social Security payroll taxes, which strikes me as sensible. That cap is now close to $98,000 (it’s indexed), and the result is highly regressive. (Bill Gates satisfies his yearly Social Security obligations a few minutes past midnight on January 1 every year.) The cap doesn’t have to be lifted all that much to keep Social Security solvent – maybe to $115,00. That’s a progressive solution to the problem. HRC wants to refer Social Security to a commission. That’s avoiding the issue, and it’s irresponsible: A commission will likely call either for raising the retirement age (that’s what Greenspan’s Social Security commission came up with in the 1980s) or increasing the payroll tax on all Americans. So when HRC charges that Obama’s plan would “raise taxes” and her plan wouldn’t, she’s simply not telling the truth.

I’m equally concerned about her attack on his health care plan. She says his would insure fewer people than hers. I’ve compared the two plans in detail. Both of them are big advances over what we have now. But in my view Obama’s would insure more people, not fewer, than HRC’s. That’s because Obama’s puts more money up front and contains sufficient subsidies to insure everyone who’s likely to need help – including all children and young adults up to 25 years old. Hers requires that everyone insure themselves. Yet we know from experience with mandated auto insurance – and we’re learning from what’s happening in Massachusetts where health insurance is now being mandated – that mandates still leave out a lot of people at the lower end who can’t afford to insure themselves even when they’re required to do so. HRC doesn’t indicate how she’d enforce her mandate, and I can’t find enough money in HRC’s plan to help all those who won’t be able to afford to buy it. I’m also impressed by the up-front investments in information technology in O’s plan, and the reinsurance mechanism for coping with the costs of catastrophic illness. HRC is far less specific on both counts. In short: They’re both advances, but O’s is the better of the two. HRC has no grounds for alleging that O’s would leave out 15 million people.
http://zennie2005.blogspot.com/2007/12/robert-reich-attacks-hillary-clinton.html

How would folks feel about having their wages garnished to pay for health care if they didn’t want it?
According to Hillary on ABC this morning, that is an option.

simon

But if they get sick, the taxpayer has to pay for the medical care, one way or the other.

Is it right they dont contribute?

Cee

Simon,

I haven’t decided how I feel about this.

Kathy

We have to pay social security. Why not healthcare. If everyone is in, it will be much cheaper.

I still want Universal one-payer healthcare (Medicare). If the government can get the social security checks and medicare checks out on time, they could certainly manage a universal one payer healthcare system.

TeakWoodKite

Minor point:
~~they~~ We could certainly manage a universal one payer healthcare system.

Centrocitta

My opinion has basically always been the same but it’s even more important now that anybody will be better than George W. Bush and his crooks from Congress Avenue in Austin, Texas.

Soon, hopefully, the many Americans who have been inadvertently and adversely affected, through no fault of their own, by the policies and actions of these thugs, going as far back as November 1996 when Bush was still governor of Texas, will be able to come forward and speak out and receive the vindication and justice they so richly deserve.
bob h

The Republicans are basically finished and can now husband resources and energy for the big fight. We Democrats, on the other hand, have arranged so that our candidates will go on spending and cutting each other up until Spring at least. What is the sense in this?
The attacks on McCain ought to be beginning now.
kenoshaMarge

Never, ever count the Republicans out! They lost the last two elections and yet George Bush and his neo-con administration has owned the White House for 8 years. That is why IMHO Obama is such a danger to our country. Anyone, anywhere that thinks you can get along with the Republicans is not only a fool but is a damn fool.
That is why also IMHO, so many Republicans are sweet talking about Obama. A. They get to look as if they, unlike most of their party are not racists, and B. They get to put someone in the White House that thinks he can work with them. They are salivating all ready.

Hillary, on the other hand, in addition to being smart and having the better ideas, must have an awful lot of rage against all the Republican scum that have attacked her all these years hidden away behind that smile. Hopefully, if elected, she will begin some payback. I don’t want to get along with the bastards, I want them indicted and sent to some small housing that comes equipped with bars.

Get along with Republicans? What’s this guy been drinking? Might as well try and make a pet of a pit viper.

simon

I think it’s interesting Romney is running ads against Clinton, now, as opposed to attacking his republican opponents.

He wants to face Obama, he feels Obama will be easier to beat.

Cee

Simon,

If Mitt thinks that he’s a fool. Rick Santorium just endorsed him.
Doesn’t that tell you how popular he is?

simon

A pit viper has teeth, republicans dont.

Take it for what it’s worth.

kenoshaMarge

Sorry about the pit viper thing. I don’t like snakes and that sounded like the nastiest thing I could think of at the time.

And if Republicans don’t have teeth they sure as hell been gumming our folks to death for quite some time now.

simon

When we look back at this in twenty years, yes, we will see we have been gummed, rather than bitten.

Even looking at Hitler, now, he did so much damage, I am not minimizing it, but the myth of the monster is much greater than the truth of the man.

Then you lose the fear, and without the fear of others to support them, they can’t function, can’t stand up to scrutiny.

I mean, who is Dick Cheney, really, someone to be afraid of?

Same for Bill Kristol.

Radagast

I have a question. It’s aimed mostly at the Hillary supporters that have been so vocal in their distain for Obama. However, it goes for everyone.

Will you support the nominee of your party?

John Edwards was my first choice. I came to Obama because he best represents, to me anyway, the ‘soul’ reason why John Edwards was running.

I have read here all about how the Clinton and Obama heatlh care and other plans differ but, in the end, no matter which of them gets elected, Congress and the President will fashion a plan that may not resemble anything we see now. Their differences are nuance, in my opinion.

At no other blog where Democrats seem to gather, have I read so many truly nasty and bitter attacks on a fellow Democrats because of who they support. To those folks I ask:

If Obama is the Democratic Candidate, where do you plan to go? McCain? Romney? If so, good riddance to you and don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

I passed out leaflets for Lyndon Johnson in 1964. I’ve hung by the Democatic Party (sometimes literally) all my life. If Hillary Clinton is the nominee, I will work as hard as ever to get her elected. Maybe even harder because of what we’ve suffered for the past seven years.

However, Obama, like Edwards, presents a more fresh and exciting approach than Clinton. To me, that’s the difference and I believe it’s important.

kenoshaMarge

If Obama is the candidate I will vote Green. I too was an Edwards supporter and now support Hillary Clinton.
I don’t like Obama and find him a shallow, dishonest, smooth-talking phony. May not all be true but it is the way I see him. I also think that anyone that thinks it is possible to work with the Republicans as he says he is, is either stupid or a liar. We all ready have a stupid liar in the White House I see no reason to elect another. That’s the difference to me and I believe it is important. You choice is yours and mine is my own. And sorry, I don’t intend to call anyone any names just because they don’t agree with me.

But I also want to know who you are to tell those that will not support Obama, will never, ever vote for a Republican, good riddance and not to let the door hit me on my way out? Last I heard we still had somewhat of a Democracy in this country. Not much of a one after 8 years of Bush/Cheney/Rice/ et al but enough that I should be able to vote my own conscience and not someone elses.

Radagast

I don’t think that I did …’tell those that will not support Obama, will never, ever vote for a Republican, good riddance and not to let the door hit me on my way out’ … just the one’s who abandon the Democratic Party because they don’t get their way.

We are a team. We air out our differences during the Primary then pull together behind the consensus candidate. If you can’t do that, you are not a Democrat. So, yes, thanks for your participation in our decision but don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way to your little self righteous world where everyone feels exactly like you.

It is a Democracy. You can vote any way you want.

kenoshaMarge

If I misunderstood what you meant I apologize.

simon

I wont vote for Obama either, as I feel he is simply a republican in democratic clothing. I have no faith in his ability to lead, in his ability to know his own mind, and I detest his election tactics, they are harmful to the American government.

Even in terms of the Supreme Court, Obama’s past actions do not reassure me he would appoint a non ideological justice.

I will write in Edwards, and focus my resources on local candidates.

shirin

A lot of people think Hillary is just a Republican in Democratic clothing.

I will vote for Edwards in the primary, if there is any way to do that. If not, I will, as I said, choose “none of the above”.

simon

No, what has frightened me most about Obama is his willingness to DIVIDE the American people to achieve victory.

This is what Rove did, and strikes to the heart of our government.

In addition, Obama is blatantly hypocritcal, preaching unity, yet practicing division.

His spew about Reagan, social security, gays, women, UHC and the economy are simply Bush, rehashed, sold by a democrat, this time.

And his understanding of foreign policy is reprehensible, childishly simple. When really questioned, in depth, about his views, he falls apart, there is an intellectual laziness there, a speciousness, a quality, again, not compatible with the US presidency.

Clinton is by far and away the best candidate, and will advocate for the people, Obama is already a servant of his masters. He’s lying, he agreed to use Rove’s tactics, and my goodness, what will his relationship with Rezko turn up?

It’s OK with you Obama may have knowingly taken or assisted with obtaining laundered money, federal tax money obtained for phony rehabs, but instead channeled to political candidates, and god knows where else? Do you understand the connections Rezko has, they strike right to the heart of the terrorism that murders Americans…n/t, dude. And this man is supposed to uphold the law?

It’s not Ok, he’s already dirty, it’s just a matter of limiting the amount of damage he can do if he gets the Presidency, just.like.Bush.

Obama is puppet, you really don’t understand how he’s being gamed, the wealthy in this country do think differently than you or me, a President to them is just another employee. It’s not right, and that’s why it’s important to get someone who WILL advocate for the people, like Edwards. And even though Clinton has many business relationships, too, AFAIK, the implications are not as egregious as they are for Obama. Obama, though, is already tied to a short leash, particularly through Rezko. It stinks, that relationship, and no amount of ” the senator is not of accused of any wrong doing” will change it.

Again, why do you suggest Clinton is a republican, compared to Obama?

Point by point, I’ll listen.

If you mention hope, or any of the other kid speak from Kos, don’t bother.

But if you have an argument, I’ll listen.

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

I’ve stated many times over many months that I will vote for whichever Democrat gets the nomination. I started out as an Edwards supporter and I still plan to vote for him in the caucus. As little as I trust Obama’s judgment and as deeply concerned as I am about his ability to act like a true leader (because I’ve seen absolutely no evidence of his leadership. See: Exelon Corporation) I see him as being the slightly better choice than McCain (who I think is a nutjob) and the far better choice than Romney (who I think is a serial liar).

Bottom line: I will grudgingly vote for either Clinton or Obama, but mostly because a Democratic president and Democratic Congress are still a better combination for America.

Satisfied?

simon

Why do you think McCain is a nut job?

I’m just curious, I know he is supposed to have a violent temper, I was less than impressed when I saw him debate Kerry (and Kerry just rolled over), I know he’s old, less than spry, mentally, but why do you think he’s nuts?

I wouldnt vote for him, but I wonder about people’s impressions of him.

How much was influenced by Rove, how much is true…

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

Last summer when he made his comments about Iraq being just like Korea, how nobody seemed to mind that our troops never really left Korea(because there was no declaration of peace) so it wouldn’t be any big deal if our troops stayed in Iraq for another 50 years too… I thought that called into question his grip on sanity. Then just a few weeks ago he said virtually the same thing, but this time added it could be 100 years more of occupation and nobody would mind.

I call that willfully ignorant, imperialistic and crazy. And I think he has continually deluded himself where Bush is concerned. He played the role of anti-torture guy during the MCA debates, but then turned a blind eye when Bush said “torture good, Habeas bad” and made that view into law. I don’t know if that episode was evidence of McCain craziness, but his trusting of the Bush mob on torture — when we all know they’ve been sanctioning it and carrying it out for years — most certainly showed a dangerous disconnection with reality.

Cee

Radagast,

Sit tight for the insults. You’ll now being called an Obamabot, naive, uninformed, a Kool-aid drinker, a Hitler/Jim Jones follower…what have I forgotten? LOL!!

simon

Simplistic moron?

Woman hater?

Retard?

Self hating?

Cee

Thanks Simon. LOL! Marge added viper. I missed that one too.

kenoshaMarge

The viper was for Republicans, not for any poster here or for anyone supporting ANY Democratic candidate. I may disagree with their choice but I try very hard not to call them names. Sometimes it’s real hard.

I don’t like Obama and have said so numerous times. But the thought of President McCain or President Romney makes my skin crawl. And at my age I’m not sure it will all crawl back where it belongs.

http://www.food4humanity.org HoosierHoops

Well I vote Tuesday.. in that spirit the boys were by last night for a poker game,, After about a half bottle of crown and a few cigars ( well Alan drank wine but him being 6’10″ we say nothing..only winks at each other) i thought i’d bring up politics. ( i like living on the edge)
A spirited debate then followed…
here is the roundup..
1) The GOP is fractured this year
2) The Dems are doing a good job of following suit.
3) the debate between HRC and Obama went back and forth endlessly..
Finally Alan slammed his wine glass down..( snickers..very quiet snickers)
and he said this..The only way the dems are going to win the white house is if Obama runs as the VP..
That ticket is unbeatable and obama can get elected
with experience when Hillary is done.
We all nodded our heads..
Yup we figured it all out for america last night..
Now if i could just figure out to win with 2 pairs against these guys all would be right in my world.
Cee

Another OT post. Are we going to even have an election?

The news of the multiple acts of cable sabotage are clear proof that a hostile force is doing its best to isolate the greater Middle East region (all the way to India) from the rest of the world. With the Internet down, it will be impossible for anyone to transmit video evidence out of the visually-embargoed zone, except for those who have satellite uplinks, like the major news networks, who are already under Zionist control. The depth of these cables means that they can only be reached by submarine or deep submersibles, means that it could not have been done by al Qaida the “toilet,” which doesn’t have a navy, or a submarine. The cable cutting had to have been the work of state terrorists.

http://dailyscare.com/comment/reply/2955

TeakWoodKite

You,ve been watching this as well Cee? I saw a link from Kathleen, which mentioned the traffic was redireded via the UK and US but the graphs don’t indicate any spikes of note.

Cali Columbia and Florida links are offline.
who are already under Zionist control
I might not buy this, but the “boat anchor” thing is a real curious one.

Cee

Kathleen made me aware of it and I’ve been watching it ever since.

Imagine if our undersea lines would have been cut. We wouldn’t be hearing any political noise to distract us.

TeakWoodKite

writers strike? The MSM does not want to use the “foreign” press. I dought most would notice anyway.

Cutting cables is a sloppy way to go.

Friday, February 18, 2005 Posted: 9:01 PM EST (0201 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) — The USS
Jimmy Carter, set to join the
nation’s submarine fleet Saturday,
will have some special
capabilities, intelligence experts
say: It will be able to tap undersea
cables and eavesdrop on the
communications passing through
them.
The Navy does not acknowledge that the
$3.2 billion submarine, the third and last of
the Seawolf class of attack subs, has this
capability.

Cee

Update:

Ships did not cause Internet cable damage

Ships did not cause Internet cable damage
(AFP)

3 February 2008

CAIRO – Damage to undersea Internet cables in the Mediterranean that hit business across the Middle East and South Asia was not caused by ships, Egypt’s communications ministry said on Sunday, ruling out earlier reports.

The transport ministry added that footage recorded by onshore video cameras of the location of the cables showed no maritime traffic in the area when the cables were damaged.

‘The ministry’s maritime transport committee reviewed footage covering the period of 12 hours before and 12 hours after the cables were cut and no ships sailed the area,’ a statement said.

‘The area is also marked on maps as a no-go zone and it is therefore ruled out that the damage to the cables was caused by ships,’ the statement added.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2008/February/theworld_February77.xml&section=theworld&col
TeakWoodKite

Who own’s the repair ship?

A repair ship was expected to begin work to fix the two Mediterranean cables on Tuesday

Cee

Teak,

FLAG telecom.

http://www.flagtelecom.com/

“FLAG owns and manages a unique fiber optic and MPLS/IP network, with access nodes in major cities across four continents,” says Chris Wood, vice president of marketing at FLAG. “Our agreement with TELEHOUSE provides additional direct connectivity into NYIIX and LAIIX, two of the world’s largest IXs, and enables FLAG to deliver customer traffic direct between these key exchanges and any point on our network, including major PoPs in the Middle East, Europe and Asia. We look forward to working with TELEHOUSE and offering new IX locations to our global carrier customer base.”

http://www.thewhir.com/marketwatch/fla032405.cfm

Centrocitta

…..Hopefully, if elected, she will begin some payback. I don’t want to get along with the bastards, I want them indicted and sent to some small housing that comes equipped with bars…..

Couldn’t agree more about the payback and that Hillary, being a Scorpio, is very likely to start one if she wins. Let’s face it. The Republicans planted that fat cow and Israeli spy, Monica Lewinsky, in the White House to distract Bill while they were planning their upcoming election fraud in Austin and Dallas. The woes of a woman scorned are well known. But a Scorpio woman scorned will definitely deliver her sting when the time is right.

simon

Does this have anything to do with cable cutting zionists?

According to one source, it’s all engineered by BENOW!, a feminist nazi organiztion founded by the right wing component of the outer hebrides.

Otherwise known as British Petroleum, of course.

They want your shoes.

ALL of them.

It’s part of the new world order.

TeakWoodKite

It has to be “cable cutting zionists” , that is the only way to send a message. Personally I think it was a sea serpent pissed at his cable company.

FLAG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliance_Communications
SEA-ME-WE 4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEA-ME-WE_4
(interesting map)

simon

So the Zionists, in addition to being world slave masters and shoe thieves, can also now function underwater for extended periods of time, growing gills, even?

Wow, will wonders never cease.

Does the DoD know this?

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

No, I’m the only Jew who wants your shoes. I turn them into telephones.

TeakWoodKite

Coming soon to a theater near you..The Get Smart trailer looks like fun.

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

I can’t wait. Steve Carrell is perfect as Max.
But there’s nothing like the classic…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSsV5bACexQ

TeakWoodKite

Scorpio woman
How well I know.
If Gitmo is not closed, send them there.

Centrocitta

In addition, Hillary’s moon sign is PISCES. This means she has some Pirahana traits too and will most assuredly go after them. Yes, Gitmo would be a good place to imprison them.

Cee

I think I share a birthday with Hillary.

I agree with what you just said.

Centrocitta

She will get my vote. Democrats Abroad vote on-line in the primary and send 22 delegates to the convention.

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

The Republicans planted that fat cow and Israeli spy, Monica Lewinsky, in the White House to distract Bill while they were planning their upcoming election fraud in Austin and Dallas.

Lewinsky the Israeli spy. I thought I’d heard it all but that has got to be the stupidest, most inane comment I’ve seen on this blog yet.

I think you need to get back on your meds. Pronto.

Of course, being Jewish, I’m just another Israeli spy, working on the down low for the Zionist Conspiracy. Up til now, only Larry, Susan and Leslie knew that, but I figured, hey, why not make a party of it?

Shirin

Shoephone, weren’t you here for the “white eggs are a Jewish conspiracy to force us all to eat kosher” comment?! That HAS to beat this one in the inanity category!

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

Shirin – Shhhh… we’re not supposed to mention the white eggs…

Now I’m going to have to go smear kreplach around the edge of the cat’s food bowl… I could be up all night chanting incantations…

Shirin

Ohhhhhh – sorry!

I guess I shouldn’t confess that before the airlines started offering halal meals I used to always order the kosher ones ’cause aside from alcohol if something is kosher it is also acceptable for Muslims to consume (shhhhhh – we cannot reveal that Jews and Muslims have stuff in common – you know – like the same God, most of the same prophets (too bad you guys don’t accept Jesus and Muhammad, but then they are a bit too contemporary for you old folks, I guess)).

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

LOL. Old dogs and new tricks…

:- )

Cee

I don’t think Monica was a spy. I do believe that they knew she was doing Bill and used it.

I’ll never forget Netanyahu appearing on the 700 Club right before the story broke. He and Pat were giddy.

TeakWoodKite

Stop cutting cables would help.

The Bandwith Challenges for the 21st Century on January 29, 2008 at the Rayburn House Office Building in Washington, D.C. is where DSTA will be amongst a group of privileged invitees from across the United States, to include The Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), The Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) and the Air Force Research Lab. Committee Members use this opportunity to interact with these industry leaders involved with the development of technical solutions to address this growing challenge.

http://carolinanewswire.com/news/News.cgi?database=01news.db&command=viewone&id=572&op=t
justsomeone

Centrocitta, thanks for the laugh: Monica Lewinsky an Isralie spy, that is hilarious! Now if you’ll just fork over the the idenities of the other foreign governments who sent Jennifer Flowers & that long string of other girls or do you think they were all Isralie spies? BTW r u slurping the vino again? Or on to the Galeano?

Centrocitta

I don’t recall Jennifer Flowers and that long string of other Gentile girls being in Bill Clinton’s picture when he was in the White House, do you? But it does seem that yet another Israeli spy also caused some problems for the former Democratic governor of New Jersey, not to mention those Israeli “art students” that just happened to be around before 9-11.

http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

I hear that Britney Spears could use a roommate at the psych ward. Hurry, maybe you can get on the waiting list.

TeakWoodKite

Can you say RAAAAAAID?

By Richard Holbrooke
Wednesday, January 23, 2008; Page A19

“I’m a spray man myself,” President Bush told government leaders and American counter-narcotics officials during his 2006 trip to Afghanistan. He said it again when President Hamid Karzai visited Camp David in August. Bush meant, of course, that he favors aerial eradication of poppy fields in Afghanistan, which supplies over 90 percent of the world’s heroin…….

When I offered these thoughts on this page almost two years ago [" Afghanistan: The Long Road Ahead," op-ed, April 2, 2006], I was told by several high-ranking U.S. government officials that I was too pessimistic. I hope they do not still think so. Even more, I hope they will reexamine the disastrous drug policies that are spending American tax dollars to strengthen America’s enemies.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/22/AR2008012202617.html
Centrocitta

…..Then why did you originally state that “Down’s Syndrome occurs as a result of incest between fathers and daughters” (your exact words) without mentioning at all the confirmed primary cause, which is maternal age? And by the way, if memory serves, science has established pretty clearly why older mothers are more likely to produce Down’s children…..

Shirin, my first cousin gave birth age age 31 to a DS child. Repeat, age 31. She also gave birth at ages 20 and 22 to two, perfectly normal children. By the way, her ancestors, who are also my ancestors, happen to have originated in one of those villages in the old country that I was telling you about. You know, one where the people “gossip”. Also, this particular DS child is three generations removed from direct, immigrant ancestors who last lived in one of those villages where many DS cases still exist today. It’s easy to say “age of the mother” is the cause, especially when you have failed to do genetic testing due to ancestors not being known because they were left in the old country. But if you happen to come BACK to the old country and have a look around, you can learn a lot.

Centrocitta

…..It’s easy to say “age of the mother” is the cause, especially when you have failed to do genetic testing due to ancestors not being known because they were left in the old country. But if you happen to come BACK to the old country and have a look around, you can learn a lot…..

I might also add that this mother produced yet another perfectly healthy child at age 35 — four years after the birth of the DS child at age 31. So Shirin, I’d say this shoots your written in stone scientific theory all to hell, wouldn’t you?

shirin

Centrocita, in the case of Down’s syndrome, genetic testing the mother will tell you nothing whatsoever because the genetic anomaly that causes Down’s syndrome is not passed from generation to generation. You will not find the gene for Down’s syndrome in the mother because Down’s syndrome is caused by a change in the DNA in the egg, which are generally due to aging of the egg, thus Down’s syndrome babies are most often born to older mothers since females are born with all the eggs they will ever produce, and as the female ages, all her eggs also age.

That is why amniocentesis is recommended for women who become pregnant after the age of 35 or so, and should be done for each pregnancy that takes place after that age. Genetic testing of the mother, father, or anyone else in the family will not tell you anything at all about the likelihood of Down’s syndrome in that family.

The bottom line: Down’s syndrome is not something that is caused by incest, and as far as I know it the likelihood does not increase if there is incest in the family background, nor does it make any sense that it should.

Also, you have absolutely no idea what the incidence is of Down’s syndrome in Muslim societies, do you? Neither do I, so I don’t know whether it is more or less frequent. Why don’t you find a study or two on that, Centrocita, and provide me a reference to it, and I will check it out. I can guarantee you that if it IS less frequent, it is not because of polygamy.

shirin

Completely inconclusive anecdotal story. Doesn’t prove a thing.

And I repeat, generally speaking it takes several generations of continuous incest before genetic anomalies begin to show up. One incidence a few generations ago rarely has any effect, and being from a village where people “gossip” means nothing.

Centrocitta

Now Shirin, for as intelligent as you want to appear here in this forum, you don’t seem to always get the gist of my posts. Who is talking about one incident a few generations ago? I said nothing of the sort.

But I did say that this particular DS offspring is three generations removed from his immigrant ancestors. I did NOT say that the direct immigrant ascendants were the incestuous couple! This means previous ancestors could have been incestuous and the incidents could also have been numerous. Remember, DS can manifest itself as far removed as SEVEN generations.

And by the way, no matter what you say about Muslim wives, without a doubt, seven generations ago, Muslim men had Harems! Who needs sex with a daughter when he has a Harem?

Shirin

Centrocita, you clearly do not understand what motivates men to commit incest with their daughters. Hint: It is not insufficient opportunities for sex with females who are NOT their daughters.

PS Your stereotypic notions about Muslims in the present day AND seven generations ago are “interesting”. For your information, very few Muslim men have ever had “harems”, if for no other reason than the fact that they could not afford them. Large “harems”, and even multiple simultaneous wives were reserved for a very tiny minority of very wealthy men.

PPS It might interest some people to hear that while the Qur’an allows polygamy, it does not encourage it.

Centrocitta

In reference to incest, Shirin said –…..and because the taboos and penalties for such behaviour are so deep and so extremely heavy…..

Now, let me repeat what I said at the outset. Down’s Syndrome is less common and there is less frequency of incest in Muslim countries because the society is Polygamous!

But Shirin would have us believe (see above) that if a Muslim woman doesn’t get caught red-handed having sex with her father, that she will wait until after her baby is born and rush out to get a test that proves her father is her baby’s father too! Bingo! Heavy penalty, LOL. Shirin, please get a clue. Nobody does THAT! Incest is taboo, remember? And that’s why the scientists don’t give you the real cause of DS.

Actually, Shirin, I think it’s YOU who does not have knowledge of Muslim society. In retrospect, I don’t think you’re a Muslim at all. I think you’re a Zionist assuming a Muslim role. So what else is new?

And Shirin, what’s all this about moving back to Syria after the election? Don’t you really mean Little Syria, as in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, NY? I say this because my Italian friend has recently moved back to Italy. He tells me that they have built four new Synagogues in his neighborhood and that the Syrian Jews have totally taken over and ruined the place!

Really, if President Hillary Clinton doesn’t do some serious housekeeping after she wins the election, I may just have to come back for short visits instead of living permanently in the US of Israel.

Centrocitta

And besides, I could never do a steady diet of white chicken eggs now that I know what healthy chicken eggs taste like.
http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

Oh no! Centrocitta has blown Shirin’s cover!

Quick everybody, hide your eggs! Our Zionist No Quarter Conspiracy is under attack!

Shirin

Oh maaaaaaan! I am soooooo busted! All that money and pain wasted on that nose job, too!

Shirin

“…my Italian friend has recently moved back to Italy. He tells me that they have built four new Synagogues in his neighborhood and that the Syrian Jews have totally taken over and ruined the place!”

And they say racism and bigotry are not a European thing!

But tell me, Centrocita, have those Syrian Jews ruined the place because they are dirty Jews, or is it the fact that they are filthy Arabs? Or, perhaps because they are dirty filthy Arab Jews?

simon

Perhaps they are disingenous trolls?

Shirin

What is your point, Simon? No need to be cryptic about it. }

By the way, I wanted to tell you that I am sorry if I seemed to be ignoring your salient points. It was not my intention at all. If you would be kind enough to specifically reiterate a few of the ones you would have liked me to not ignore, I will make an effort to address them, for better or for worse.

I, too, felt that you ignored my points, so perhaps we were simply talking past each other? Let’s start with your points, though, and I will do my best NOT to ignore them this time. And if I misinterpret them, please correct me so I can try to address specifically what you are raising.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to make this correction.

Centrocitta

The neighborhood is in Bensonhurst. He’s Italian-American. He came back to Italy. He just didn’t care to live there anymore after they took over his neighborhood and put up four new Synagogues. I don’t blame him. I wouldn’t want to live there either.

shirin

So, he has an objection to synagogues in his neighborhood? The fact that they were Jews didn’t bother him, the fact that they were Arabs didn’t bother him, but the synagogues did?

What? He didn’t care for the architecture?

Centrocitta

Shirn, if the Syrian Jews left Syria because they didn’t care for the abundance of Mosques and Churchs in that country, why would a Catholic Italian-American care to live in a neighborhood that has four new Synagogues?

Shirin

Wow! This just registered with me – what a very interesting, and very, very, very revealing way of putting this, Centrocita! What a window these few words give into your mind.

“…if a Muslim woman doesn’t get caught red-handed having sex with her father…

Centrocitta

Well, Shirin, YOU are the one who said there were heavy penalties, so I thought I’d call you on your ridiculous spin. But I’m not the only one in this forum who is onto your spin.

shirin

Yes, you are so right! It is a terrible thing for a girl to get caught having sex with her father, isn’t it? Shame on her! She should know better!

But silly me for suggesting that there are heavy penalties for incest in the Muslim world. Why, as you know, ’cause once upon a time you married a Muslim for awhile, there are no penalties at all.

ybnormal

I will be voting tomorrow, Super Tuesday, in Los Angeles CA, registered as a Democrat. I really think the early running of all these primaries is counter-productive, but I have no control over scheduling, so I’ll just have to deal with it.

It appears to me that Obama’s greatest asset is the ability to motivate the converted. What about the unconverted? If the GOP can swift boat Kerry, what do we think they’re going to do with real issues such as Rezko, non-experience and voting “present”. You might as well throw raw prime rib to coyotes.

I think HC’s “baggage” is viewed one-dimensionally. Where’s the evidence of it taking her down? What I see is the fact that in spite of the Clinton’s lightening rod status, and the tax paid millions wasted by Ken Starr, Bill was elected for a second term, left office with high approval, Hillary got elected as Senator in ’00 for a state where she was not a long time resident, and was re-elected for a second term. Looks to me like ability to prevail. So much for baggage. Obama has not even gotten close to a gauntlet, much less survive one.

While Obama has been persuasive in public speaking, he comes across fair to middling in debates; tending to drift around and circle the target instead of hit it, while repeating the mantras about mystical hope and undefined change. How will that play against McCain? Whatever his faults, he is very strong in terms of speaking coherently and enunciating his message. Hillary Clinton, in spite of being out numbered in attacks against her, showed remarkable tenacity in the Dem debates; a far better asset in a Dem/GOP debate.

What about the ability to choose key people. While neither Obama or Clinton has a track record anything like what a president would, Clinton at least has a leg up in terms of having been in an advisory capacity as first lady. Who does Obama have other than Rezko?

What about likely choices of VP and cabinet positions. This is all speculation, but HC is known to be on good terms with the likes of Biden, Dodd, Richardson, Wesley Clark and other solid folks. The only clue I’ve heard about Obama is that nice lady governor from Kansas with the fire and excitement of watching grass grow, as a possible VP.

All I can say about their respective healthcare plans is that the HC plan was assembled with a combination of expert advice and lessons from experience. As far as I can tell, the BO plan was copied and pasted from other people’s plans. Beyond the differences in details of their plans, is the likely expertise that will be used to implement a plan that has the credible backing to actually work.

For me it’s less about how ideal their policy preferences sound in a town called perfect, and more about the odds for long term success of effective policy and choices on balance.
simon

Obama has never had to handle really harsh questioning from the press, either.

The one time I did see this, I saw him sweat.

So what will he do when the republicans “clinton” him?

The reason I bring this up is because I was not impressed with Obama’s abilty to think fast on his feet.

This tells me much about his mind, under normal circumstances, how quickly he can process information, and defend, esp. under stress.

He was obfuscating on the Rezko case, though, so it might have been an excpetion.

I wish the press would vet him, they’re handling him like they did Bush — hands off.
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