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MSNBC Pissing Away its Credibility

By Larry Johnson on February 8, 2008 at 9:38 PM in Current Affairs

As someone who has appeared several times on the Keith Olbermann show and a myriad of other MSNBC programs over the year, including Chris Matthew’s Hardball, I am stunned that this cable outlet has lost its way and is alienating a significant portion of viewers who like and respect Hillary and Bill Clinton.

It is one thing to have a point of view. Olbermann, for example, has enjoyed success by pitting himself as an alternative voice to the pro-Republican propaganda that is Fox News (I also was a paid Fox consultant during 2002) and challenging President Bush. But to take sides on behalf of Obama at the expense of Hillary Clinton, is wrong. Say the name “Clinton,” and MSNBC transforms itself into Fox light.

Their lionization of Obama and unwarranted attacks on Hillary Clinton are over the top. David Shuster’s latest piece of verbal sexual assault on Chelsea Clinton comes just a few weeks after Chris Matthews made the incredibly stupid claim that the only reason Hillary was elected Senator was because of her husband’s infidelity. (I am surprised that David said something so stupid.)

I have stopped watching MSNBC. I am getting my news from the BBC and the Jim Lehrer News Hour. I wouldn’t appear on Chris Matthews’ show if paid for my time. I will still do Olbermann (if asked) but, after this piece, I suspect I’ll be off the list. MSNBC sadly joins the ranks of Fox as just another tabloid outlet bent on pandering to the lowest common denominator.

UPDATE:  (Expanded comment from BernieO.  Got this note from a NoQuarter reader and believe it merits more attention.)

Dear Larry

Thank you for highlighting the outrageous behavior of pundits at MSNBC. I wish you would make an exception for the Dan Abrams show. He is one of the very few journalists who is regularly talking about the blatant anti-Clinton bias in the media. He is also asking viewers to email the show about instances of bias that they see. In addition he is running an ongoing segment called “Bush League Justice” highlighting how Bush is still stacking the decks of our legal system with extreme right wingers. It would be very helpful for NBC to see his ratings increase as a result of this. I think he is the general manager of MSNBC, so he may bear some responsibility for what has been going on, but even so, his show deserves to succeed for taking the high road.

I have been a close media watcher ever since I stumbled across Gene Lyons’ book “Fools for Scandal” about the responsibility the media bore for pushing the bogus Whitewater scandal. I am convinced that without their complicity in this right wing smear, as well as others pseudo scandals like Travelgate, there would never have been an independent counsel, Monica (at least in a public sense) or impeachment. The right wing will always try this kind of garbage but without the media legitimizing them and giving them a megaphone they would not succeed. I also believe they were responsible for the election of Bush. They clearly overlooked his extremely serious flaws like his obvious engagement in insider trading as well as his blatant lies. Instead he was portrayed as a straight shooter while Gore was  unfairly trashed as a liar at every turn. When I tried to tell people about Bush’s background or that Gore really had helped create the internet, they thought I was nuts. There is no way most Americans would have voted for this clown if they had been given the information they needed to make a sound judgment.  The media also unfairly mocked Kerry and gave a platform to the Swiftboaters with very little challenge to their veracity. They share a lot of responsibility for the serious problems this country is nowed facing.

I am deeply troubled that so many Democrats seem to think that this behavior has only been aimed at the Clintons and many think the Clintons bear a lot of the blame for it. They overlook the treatment of Gore and Kerry. Our media has been the major obstacle to the election of any Democratic president in recent years. It is possible they will not do this to Obama, but I would not bet on it. This unprofessional conduct is extremely damaging to our democracy and should not be tolerated by anyone, no matter whose ox is being unfairly gored.  (I stopped subscribing to Newsweek after they took their cheap shot at Bush Sr. with their “Wimp Factor” cover even though  I did not support him,) An informed electorate is an essential for any democracy to function. Presidents need to be elected based on a fair assessment of both their strengths and weaknesses, not some high school game of who is the coolest. You would think after the debacle of Bush the media would have lost confidence in their own judgment, but obviously not.

I am heartened to see Democrats finally stand up to the media the way that Republicans have for years. It is clearly having an impact and needs to continue.  Those in the media who have the courage to say the emperor has no clothes as Dan Abrams is doing deserve our support.

Sorry for the length of this letter but this is an issue that I obviously am passionate about. I think we have an opportunity to fix this problem, but people need to understand its depth and not just attribute it to the personality of the Clintons. Raising an outcry whenever the media exhibits their bias and rewarding those who are fair is the best way to put an end to this extremely damaging behavior.

  • Paine from the Left

    I fired off a letter to MSNBC this afternoon. I will continue to watch Countdown when Olberman is the host but for the rest of the network lineup, forget it!

    • BernieO

      NOT SO FAST EVERYONE. Watch Dan Abrams. He is all over the media for their anti-Clinton bias and he is also highlighting what he is calling “Bushleague Justice” in order to inform people about Bush trying to fill our justice system with extreme right wingers, the latest being the Assistant Deputy Attorney General.

      I have stopped wathching Olbermann for the most part because of his obvious anti-Clinton bias. MSNBC was one of the worst offenders against Clinton, Gore and Kerry. But Abrams deserves support now that he has stopped his celebrity and crime fest and started doing something substantive.

      • s. hall

        We should applaud anyone who is not a part of this group think anti-Clinton bias. Norah O’Donnell said that Obama was using the song Bush used at every appearance. She seemed shocked that Obama would try to copy Bush.

        I like Abrams on-air reporting however, he has been GM of MSNBC since June and this totally one sided behavior has come about since then. If you are going to be a news network you have to do news–just fighting over if Obama is more like JFK, RFK or Moses is not news. It is manipulating an election. We have already seen what the media can do when the manipulate an election. How many people would be alive today if Al Gore had become president in 2000. The media has blood on its hands and MSNBC has been the worst of the lot.

    • norrismorris

      Exactly what I did. I wrote two letters and said that viewers should call their client sponsors and complain about the blatant sexism and bias.

      CNBC has morphed into CNBCDisaster and I won’t watch it. If I remember to turn on Olbermann, ok….but Olbermann deserves better.

      This is a scuzzy bunch of out of control people trying to be reporters. BTW Obama’s Foreign Policy advisor is Zbignew Brzyinzky. Remember the old timer from Carter adminisrtration? His daughter is Nina, one of the anchors on MSNBC. They don’t of course, mention this.

      What’s really involved here is the atmosphere from top management of bias towards Hillary, and the permission that this is really ok. So everyone then has the right to act like pigs.

      • TeakWoodKite

        CNBC has morphed into CNBCDisaster and I won’t watch it.

        It use to be, the saying “If you don’t like it, change the channel” was a way of resolving an uncomfortable viewing experience.
        Yesterday I changed the channel and felt awkward; first because I felt guilty and was mad as hell and not going take it anymore. Second, parted of me wanted the “rubberneck gratification” thing. Not to worry I relized, with 24/7 news coverage and so many channels to choose from, the only thing I would not see repeatedly, was Michael Moore’s Farienhiet 911.
        Who knows maybe it will end up premiering on the comedy or Sci-Fi channel.

      • Cee

        Norris,

        You’re wrong. Mika talked about this several weeks ago.

  • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

    One doesn’t even need to be a Clinton supporter to have been outraged at MSNBC’s ongoing assault on women. The channel is doing its best to seduce FOX fans.

    • simon

      shoephone said:

      One doesn’t even need to be a Clinton supporter to have been outraged at MSNBC’s ongoing assault on women. The channel is doing its best to seduce FOX fans.

      Well, the “best” of Fox, and the “best” of Obama — at least they’re all in one place, now, MSNBC acting as a giant sifter, of sorts.

      • simon

        shoephone said:

        One doesn’t even need to be a Clinton supporter to have been outraged at MSNBC’s ongoing assault on women. The channel is doing its best to seduce FOX fans.

        Well, the “best” of Fox, and the “best” of Obama — at least they’re all in one place, now, MSNBC acting as a giant sifter, of sorts.

        Sort of like caging all the wommin-haters in one spot…

    • s. hall

      I turned to Fox to get election results. MSNBC makes Fox look like the BBC. Abrams said he wants to the the shows on MSNBC more edgy. I think they have passed edgy a long time ago. Its more like Animal House now.

  • Cee

    Larry,

    They are all pissing away their authority. People like Kiel need to be on the air 24/7.

    You can convince me to vote for your candidate if she takes this on.

    Mukasey: No, I Will Not Enforce Citations for Contempt of Congress
    By Paul Kiel – February 7, 2008, 6:24PM
    Just to complete the theme of the day, Michael Mukasey said today that if Congress passed contempt citations against current and former White House officials based on their refusal to respond to subpoenas, the Justice Department would not enforce them, as federal law instructs.

    Rep. Robert Wexler (D-FL) was the one who first popped the question. If Congress passed a citation against White House chief of staff Josh Bolten, who, along with former White House counsel Harriet Miers and Karl Rove, refused to show up when subpoenaed by Congress as part of the U.S. attorneys investigation — would the DoJ enforce it?

    Mukasey’s simple answer was “no.” Enforcing the contempt citation is “not permitted when the president directs a direct adviser of his, somebody who directly advises him, not to appear or when he directs any member of the executive not to produce document.”

    This is not much of a surprise. The administration has been saying this since last summer. And Mukasey indicated some wariness on the question during his confirmation hearing — although he said he hoped he wouldn’t have to make that decision.

    So now Congress knows what the answer will be if the Congressional leadership ever decides to bring it to a vote.

    Read more »

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/

    • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

      Congress also has the authority to have the subjects of those subpoenas arrested on the spot by the House Sargent-at-Arms, should they ever step foot inside the chamber. (Of course, that’s part of why they won’t go near the place.)

      I wish both Clinton and Obama would address this issue, and the myriad of constitutional issues that put our democracy in danger. So far, neither one has. So, if this is the defining factor, what’s the justification for voting for Obama?

      • simon

        So what would be the next step in enforcement?

        This just means it will take a little longer, maybe it’s a lateral move.

        How does Congress challenge Mukasey?

        Lure Miers to the chamber with a piece of cheese?

        Certainly there is a counter move, I often think when Bush orders staff to push back in this manner, he feels he has won the game, not understanding his opponent forced his move, with his reaction already calculated.

        Watching the administration, they never seem to take the long view, every move seems calculated for the moment, as opposed to the long term.

        And they spin around that, thinking they have something sewn up, when they’re not even close.

        YMMV.

        • ces

          So what would be the next step in enforcement?

          Send David Shuster after him?

          /snark

        • Jess Wonderin

          Yes – but you seem to forget that “we” have no follow up punch . . . Congress threaten and Bush says “fuck you” . . . end of debate. So the can play the short game and “win” every time . . . how can the JUSTICE DEPARTMENT refuse to investigate criminal activity in the Executive Branch? A little stained blue dress between concenting adults and we spent years and MILLIONS for nothing . . . yet 925 documented lies and admitting to torture as policy goes un-investigated . . . Seems they have the ball and are running the clock out while we get busy planning the “long game” . . . there are no “do overs” and anything less than NOW is too late.

          • simon

            Jess Wonderin:

            Yes – but you seem to forget that “we” have no follow up punch . . . Congress threaten and Bush says “fuck you” . . . end of debate.

            That is not true, not true at all.

            There are a milion different ways to game Bush, in regard to this matter.

            I’m wondering what Congress’ recourse is, above board?

            For the long haul, though, it further contributes to the erosion of the Administration; Bush, Cheney and Mukasey can’t see it, but the rest of the country can, as they become more indifferent to the Republican party.

            I’ve read a description of ADD that described the thought process as being in the moment, like you just described, ie Bush makes a decision and that’s that, end of debate.

            But, really, there are consequences for this bad decision, it’s just that the administration can’t calculate.

            If Cheney and Bush are always running from their crimes, arent they in a bit of internal chaos, psychologically, at this point? Doesnt that contribute to the internal destruction of their organization?

            • TeakWoodKite

              being in the moment,
              Zen?

              I have impression that re: Doesnt that contribute to the internal destruction of their organization? that it’s front orginization for a much larger enterprise. Looking at the progress it has made the diminished usefulness is expected. The egos that are left make it very very dangerous and looking to meld back in to the matrix.

              • simon

                Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2008-02-09 01:54:58

                being in the moment,
                Zen?

                No, “thinking in the moment,” maybe that’s better, it’s a thought disorder. You, or I are in the moment, be in the moment, to calm our anxiety, give us a better view of life, say, they’re in the moment, because they are full of anxiety, or suffering from an organic brain disorder, (lol) disallowing an ability to judge the consequences of their actions.

                TWK: I have impression that re: Doesn’t that contribute to the internal destruction of their organization? that it’s front organization for a much larger enterprise. Looking at the progress it has made the diminished usefulness is expected. The egos that are left make it very very dangerous and looking to meld back in to the matrix.

                That would be assuming the individual egos arent accounted for, it’s simply an ecosystem, after all, we’re all crippled by our fears, most of us too afraid to face them. And we’re not all equal, we have equal rights under the law, but some are smarter than others, fact of life.

                I always thought one of the problems with Blackwater, say, is it believes it’s equal to the Pentagon, and that notion is the fantasy of a child.

                What is the old adage, “the devil’s greatest trick was making people think he no longer existed?”

                The DoD is huge, with some of the best minds in the world working on behalf of maintaining American democracy. Blackwater offers an ex-navy seal, and a couple of retired spooks? And bless them, don’t get me wrong, really, but, you know…

        • Fred C. Dobbs

          >>> Lure Miers to the chamber with a piece of cheese?

          I would think that a faux Bingo night might do it.

      • Cee

        Shoe,

        I’ve already said why I was voting for Obama.

        These questions should be asked of all of the candidates.

        1. Domestic Surveillance. The White House is seeking and Congress is poised to grant retroactive immunity for telephone companies that assisted the Administration in its surveillance activities. But immunity for what? “This Administration may have enjoyed completely unrestrained access to the communications of virtually every American,” said Sen. James Webb (D-VA) earlier this month. “Do we know this to be the case? I cannot be sure. One reason I cannot be sure is that I have been denied access to review the documents that may answer these questions about the process.” Such uncertainty should be remedied once and for all by official disclosure.

        2. Interrogation and Torture. After months and years of awkward circumlocution, CIA Director Michael V. Hayden admitted on February 5 that U.S. interrogators had subjected three al Qaeda prisoners to waterboarding, or simulated drowning. But the acknowledgment raised more questions than it answered. On what authority did interrogators engage in what has long been considered a prosecutable action? What other coercive interrogation techniques have been adopted? If waterboarding is now deemed permissible under some circumstances, is there any interrogation technique that the Administration would still rule out? What has been the humanitarian cost around the world? As a practical matter, has the U.S. government effectively legitimized torture? If there is to be accountability for the interrogation of prisoners in U.S. custody, the first step must be a forthright disclosure of what the Bush Administration has done.

        3. Extraordinary Rendition. The U.S. Government has seized suspected terrorists and transported them without any semblance of judicial process to foreign countries where they have been tortured, a process known as “extraordinary rendition.” In one particularly outlandish case, a Canadian national named Maher Arar was arrested in New York on the basis of erroneous information and deported by the U.S. Government to Syria, where he was brutally interrogated over the course of a year. Following his release, the government of Canada concluded that his detention was a mistake and issued a formal apology. But the Bush Administration declined to follow suit.

        4. And Much More. The topics noted above became controversial due to press reports, leaks, whistleblower accounts, lawsuits and similar indications. But there is reason to wonder what other yet unknown deviations from accepted practice the Bush Administration might have pursued under cover of secrecy. Of the 54 National Security Presidential Directives issued by the Bush Administration to date, the titles of only about half have been publicly identified. There is descriptive material or actual text in the public domain for only about a third. In other words, there are dozens of undisclosed Presidential directives that define U.S. national security policy and task government agencies, but whose substance is unknown either to the public or, as a rule, to Congress. Given what we do know of the character of the present Administration, this whole mechanism of executive authority seems in need of public ventilation.

        And so here are some questions that journalists could usefully pose to the presidential candidates:

        Q. Will you disclose the full scope of Bush Administration domestic surveillance activities affecting American citizens, including all surveillance actions that were undertaken outside of the framework of law, as well as the legal opinions that were generated to justify them?

        Q. Will you specify precisely what sort of coercive interrogation techniques were employed by the Bush Administration, as well as their purported justifications, so that the nation may openly decide whether to embrace or to repudiate such techniques?

        Q. Will you renounce the practice of extraordinary rendition that is not sanctioned by any judicial process? Will you issue a formal apology to Maher Arar for his mistaken arrest, deportation and torture?

        Q. Will you disclose at least a summary account of the contents of each of the Bush Administration’s National Security Presidential Directives, as well as your own?

        Steven Aftergood directs the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists
        http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=ask_this.view&askthisid=321

        • Marjorie

          Cee- re: extraordinary rendition, Canada, and the Canadian National, Maher Arar–Hasn’t the Canadian government issued a statement that no more Canadian commercial flights will land in the US as a result of the arrest of the Canadian national?

          • Cee

            Marjorie,

            I’m not aware of this. I do know that this innocent man was barred from coming here to speak about his treatment.

            Perhaps he’s lucky.

            Any thoughts on this?

            FBI Deputizes Private Contractors With Extraordinary Powers, Including ‘Shoot to Kill’

            By Matthew Rothschild, The Progressive. Posted February 8, 2008.

            http://www.alternet.org/story/76388/

            • Marjorie

              Cee-re: rendition and Canada-I think it had to do with the US refusing to divulge the names of Canadian citizens on the US “no fly list”, so if someone from Canada is on the no fly list and makes a stop in the US, they might suffer the same experience as Maher Arar. But no one knows if they are on the no fly list-a catch 22 which can only be solved by avoiding a flight landing in the US.

            • TeakWoodKite

              Cee thanks for the post. Is the post your writing or Steven Aftergood’s? I saw a show where this Canadian, Maher Arar, took part in a Q&A via video conference. Most informative.
              >>>
              Bush talked about an ownership society, this is is civil defense based on that model. Without complete transparency, I would say it is called baby facism.
              (from alternet link above)

              On May 9, 2007, George Bush issued National Security Presidential Directive 51 entitled “National Continuity Policy.” In it, he instructed the Secretary of Homeland Security to coordinate with “private sector owners and operators of critical infrastructure, as appropriate, in order to provide for the delivery of essential services during an emergency.”

              Continuity of government is not about survival of citizen governance, it is about self presevation of ownership society. It will maintain the facade until the “change” is complete and all “hope” is lost.

              • Cee

                Teak,

                Aftergood wrote that.

                The plans for the continuity of government are nothing new. We’re just dealing with more dangerous people now. You’re right. It isn’t about the our survival but our suppression.

                Btw…Obama won another caucus. He wins lose and loses the machine count races even when polls show him ahead. :O

                • Cee

                  oops…wins THOSE

                  • TeakWoodKite

                    I work with technology for a paycheck and would not trust electronic voting machines even for use as a “60 ton boat anchor”** to break submarine fiber cables.

                    It is a fasinating aspect of human psychology when it comes to making choices, all things being more less equal. I was going to ask a psychologist friend of mine about it next week.

                    ** the latest account of what happened on CNN-web, which in one account said it was in a no go zone.
                    I was trying to google “worlds heaviest boat anchor” No luck.

        • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

          Cee – I respect your support of Obama, and I agree that all the candidates should be asked those questions, especially with respect to torture and rendiition. Because none of them — including Obama — has addressed them unasked. But your challenge to Larry was based on Clinton’s willingness or unwillingness to focus on the contempt citations. My point is, why say you might be convinced to vote for her if she follows through on that when Obama has done nothing in regard to it. Sounds like a double standard to me. Either it’s the defining issue for your vote preference or it’s not. And I don’t think it is.

          Furthermore, neither Obama nor Clinton has felt it necessary to suspend their campaigning/fundraising when important FISA amendments, filibusters or cloture votes were on the Senate floor. Only once did they bother to show up in the Senate to take part. That one time was a political calculation for both of them and their overall lack of attention to the matter is deeply disturbing to me.

          At this point, I still think Obama is too much of an amateur for the White House, but, then, I’m still a chagrined Edwards supporter. I don’t care for the cult of personality or for charisma contests, and I’m not interested in double standards for any of the candidates.

          • Cee

            Shoe,

            I stopped trusting Clinton several years ago. I’m not evading giving you an answer.
            I’m just not giving the GOP anymore ammo to use by spelling out all of the reasons.
            I wish people would do the same when they speak of Obama.

          • Mike Howell

            Well said.

            • Nellie

              Mike,

              Can you please contact me at stefanikn at gmail dot com?

              Thanks

              • Mike Howell

                Nellie –

                Just did!

        • simon

          Cee–

          Always good to see your posting, it’s the equivalent of the library being opened. (lol)

          I see your points in regard to Obama but have you read the London Times, re Obama’s connections?

          Those men connected to Obama might have had something to do with 9.11, Auchi was Saddam’s wash man in France, shared a bank with Osama, as well as certain political and money connections.

          Oh, what I would give for a special prosecutor to investigate.

          Don’t you wonder why this hasn’t happened?

          And do we really a President with those types of connections? I suppose we will find out more at Obama’s, I mean Rezko’s, trial.

          Do you really want a President connected to men like that?

          Next thing, he’ll be telling us he doesn’t want a Constitution anymore.

          I mean, Auchi, according to one post I read, was supposedly responsible for financing the right wings in Spain, and Germany ( and I will find the source, but, when I see your name, I know intelligent words will follow, and I just can’t wait) he’s very close to the President of Syria, and he donates to Obama.

          Isn’t Syria an enemy of state, due to the financing of terrorism? Is that a right wing talking point, too? I never really know.

          I’m just not comfortable with that, Obama will have to be kept on a short leash, and really, haven’t we had enough of that with Bush?

          It’s so confusing, isn’t it?

          Do you understand the implications of Obaam’s connections? And despite that, you STILL support him?

          Peace, and rosebuds…

          • s. hall

            I’m concerned with Obama’s cousin Odinga who heads a tribe that is trying to topple the existing President–supported by the US Govt. Odinga is a radical muslim who believes in Sharia law. When the media covers the rioting in Kenya and the 700 deaths wouldn’t it be news to say the leader of the tribe causing this violence is Obama’s cousin?

            • shirin

              Are you responsible or answerable for the beliefs and actions of all of your cousins, and in particular are you responsible or answerable for the beliefs and actions of cousins who live on different continents and whom you have never even met?

          • shirin

            “Those men connected to Obama might have had something to do with 9.11, Auchi was Saddam’s wash man in France, shared a bank with Osama, as well as certain political and money connections.”

            Huh! Are you trying to connect Obama to 9/11 by speculating that he was connected through Auchi (because Rezko helped him to buy his house) with Saddam Hussein, who had exactly nothing to do with 9/11?

            And OOOOOOOOO! Osama might have used the same bank as Auchi?! Wow! Now there IS proof positive that Barack Obama is connected to Osama bin Laden! Why didn’t I see this before? OMG, that REALLY changes everything! Obviously, Barack Obama did September 11!

            But wait – if Auchi, who had a long relationships with Saddam, “shared” a bank with Osama, does this also mean that Saddam and Osama were connected? Wow! So George Bush was right, then! Saddam WAS a close buddy of Osama, which justifies the whole Iraq thing!

            “Oh, what I would give for a special prosecutor to investigate.”

            That would beat the hell out of all this incoherent, irrational speculation!

            “Don’t you wonder why this hasn’t happened?”

            Ummmmm – ’cause Obama is really a paid stooge of the Bush regime?

            “And do we really a President with those types of connections?”

            Gosh no! We SURE don’t need a Democratic Party President with connections to the Bush regime!

            “I mean, Auchi, according to one post I read, was supposedly responsible for financing the right wings in Spain, and Germany ( and I will find the source, but, when I see your name, I know intelligent words will follow, and I just can’t wait) he’s very close to the President of Syria, and he donates to Obama.”

            Wow! Well, if you read it in a post somewhere, then for sure it is all true!

            “Isn’t Syria an enemy of state, due to the financing of terrorism? Is that a right wing talking point, too? I never really know.”

            OMG, finally you made a factual statement! You said you never really know!

            “It’s so confusing, isn’t it?”

            Only to you.

            “Do you understand the implications of Obaam’s connections?”

            You mean his connections to Osama bin Laden because Rezko, who is connected to Auchi, who, along with Saddam Hussein was part of the CIA plot to assassinate `Abdul Karim Qasim, and uses the same bank as Osama bin Laden, and is therefore allied with bin Laden, which means Saddam Hussein was best buddies with Osama bin Laden, which means that Obama had something to do with September 11?

            • simon

              Auchi donated directly to Obama’s campaign.

              Auchi is a known money launderer.

              Auchi is closely connected to Rezko.

              Auchi has connections to the whole middle east farmer’s market, including Pakistan.

              Enough for a special prosecutor in a real administration, shirin, don’t you agree?

              Nuff said, case is clear, but, spin away, I’ll check in with your posts every once in awhile..

    • s. hall

      Wow — Now we know what kind of news we are missing while news stations like MSNBC spend their time discussing the Greatness of Obama. Scary isn’t it. News Stations decided they would make a tidy profit by closing their bureaus and replacing news with commentary. As a result we know prescious little about Iraq or the story you just quoted. Why did they do this — because its cheap.

      I want to see Hillary take this on. She has suffered from media attacks for 15 years. This is why I want to see her become president. She can put some good people in at the FCC to force news stations to do news or take their licenses away.

  • Donovan Fraser

    thedailyshow.com

    John Stewart sums it all up in the “Mitt drops out” skit.
    anyone seen this one??
    Liberals are the problem with America, well I’ll be damned!!!
    Hilarious…

    Stewart is the ONLY news that is real, that and PBS and BBC.

    • Cee

      Chris Floyd takes Mitt on. Too bad we won’t see anyone like him on TV.

      If you would like to see just how sick the American elite really is – how morally depraved, how intellectually diseased, how addicted to the taste of human flesh, the scent of human blood, and the sight of human suffering – then you need go no further than the speech given by Mitt Romney to the Conservative Political Action Conference on February 7, 2008.

      http://www.chris-floyd.com/

  • Mike Howell

    MSNBC – especially Chris Matthews sucks! Keith Olderman and the other creeps need to stay in the guys locker room and leave the reporting to John Stewart and Jake Tapper with ABC.

    Hillary and Chelsea Clinton have proven that they are class acts under relentless abuse from an entire news network. Sure we expect nonsense from Fox the Corporate Line Network, but MSNBC is now the He Man Woman Haters Club.

    MSNBC = Morons Spouting Nonsense ‘Bout Clintons

    Screw MSNBC – Watch The Comedy Channel and ABC News like me!

    • kenoshaMarge

      Mike, Love that “MSNBC= Morons Spouting Nonsense ‘Bout Clintons! I was trying to come up with something and it never occurred to me to just drop the A. Good thinking.

    • Cee

      Keith Olbermann has more courage than all of them put together in taking on this junta in DC.

      What is wrong with you people?

  • Mr.Murder

    IMO Matthews is invaluable.

    He takes off the record talk that the reporters clique says in defaming Clinton, and makes it a part of the talk, and when he does so attributes to said reporters.

    He’s called about five of them out, using what they said when they take the set. Matthews is getting the heat, but the fools who said the original premise go unscrutinized.

    He’s doing the world a favor. He’s a character actor, a parody of self. If you look a bit closer you’ll see that he’s simply channeled their talking points and opinions and the approach they take into realms of the ridiculous sublime.

    Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

    • s. hall

      Gee and I thought Matthews was just a garden variety nut case.

  • Hope

    Keith Olbermann has become tiresome. After being a fan of his for quite awhile and appreciating his nightly commentaries bashing Bush over the head with his intellectual revilements, he now has begun to wear on the soul. What used to be endearing and satisfactory diatribe has now become tiresome and assuredly creates nausea in any listener subjected to his long-winded speeches.

    To make matters even more severe, he’s beginning to resemble a fucking overgrown owl in a square-shouldered Armani get-up. He and that bombastic Bill O’Reilly have now been cloned into one big hairy ball of hot air.

    Fuck MSNBC.

    • kenoshaMarge

      Amen Sister!

  • Mike Howell

    Hope,

    You managed to do what Olderman no longer can – enlighten and entertain! I’m sending it to my friends. Way good.

    “To make matters even more severe, he’s beginning to resemble a fucking overgrown owl in a square-shouldered Armani get-up. He and that bombastic Bill O’Reilly have now been cloned into one big hairy ball of hot air.”

    Now that’s great prose! There’s Hope yet…

  • Mike Howell

    Hope Wait – I should have said—

    What a hoot!

    • Hope

      Thanks Mike! :-) LOL

  • shirin

    OT, but Mr. Murder, you put a link in one of the topics lower down to a blog entry that tried to tie Barak Obama directly to Nadhmi Auchi in some way.

    The first thing that jumps out at me is that Auchi was involved along with Saddam and others in the attempt to assassinate the popular nationalist Iraqi leader `Abdul Karim Qasim. Do I need to remind you that this was a CIA-sponsored operation, and that Auchi was therefore involved with the CIA to some degree, as were all the participants in that early failed American attempt at “regime change in Iraq” – plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose! – (and by the way, Saddam was not the leader of that operation, despite the impression given in that blog post and elsewhere)?

    The second thing that struck me strongly in the face was that practically every second or third paragraph contains a phrase such as “may have”, “Kazimi speculates”, “It is still unknown”, “What if there had been”, “what if”, “may have been”, “it is possible that”… In other words, there’s a hell of a lot of pure speculation in that blog post.

    This bit of speculation is particularly egregious (emphasis is mine):

    “What if there had been an Obama-Auchi meeting that may have been arranged by Rezko? Has any reporter asked Obama about this to his face? “What if either Rezko or Auchi sold Obama on how the Saddam regime sees things, and that’s why Obama took a stance against the Iraq war?

    “Was Obama influenced by a Saddam connection? Shouldn’t an Iraq-obsessed organization like MoveOn.org do more due diligence on such questionable connections before endorsing Barack Obama?”

    Look, I am no fan of Obama’s, and I am disappointed that Move On has made Obama their Chosen One (for the record, I would be equally disappointed had they done so with Hillary), but how can I be expected to take this seriously? Obama made a speech against attacking Iraq because maybe in someone’s imagination it is possible that Auchi, whom he may or may not have ever met, convinced him to have sympathy for Saddam?! COME ON! This turns rational, reasonable thinking on its head.

    I am not impressed at all with this desperate attempt to condemn Obama by finding (or more likely inventing) a relationship between him and Saddam by speculating that there might be as few as two degrees of separation IFF certain not-terribly-likely things are true. It is almost as silly as making a big deal out of his middle name or the fact that as a child in Indonesia he attended a مدرسة aka a school, or that his father was born into a Muslim family (although by the time his father met his mother he was an avowed atheist). And by the way do I need to mention how offensive it is that any connection with Islam, no matter how tenuous, is being treated as a deal breaker (and for the record, I was equally offended that Lieberman’s being an observant Jew was treated by some as an issue when he was running with Gore for VP – as with Obama it should have been his record, not his religion, that raised the red flags).

    And finally, I am leaving out here any discussion of Auchi, his history, or his significance mainly because I don’t think Auchi per se is the issue here. It looks to me as if there is an attempt to smear Obama by connecting him to Saddam via a very questionable connection to Auchi. I made my decision about Barak Obama based on his record and his stated positions. That should be enough, and all the rest looks like desperation to me.

    • Mr.Murder

      Rezko’s ties to Auchi are the important part.

      He’s the middle man.

      You cannot deny those exist.

      He’s been in business with an Iraqi billionaire who is the most likely fiscal supporter of the parts that put the Niger forgery into play.

      Auchi’s early item that put him on the map was an Italian sale of ships to the Iraqi navy. He was the middle man for Contra cash transfers via a bank in Luxembourg. He was a major middle man in the Oil for Food program slated to relieve efforts in Kurdish Iraq and still owes them four billion plus interest.

      He’s part of a multinational network of tech and telecoms businesses that included deals for the IPA’s first wireless bids for the American transitional government. He’s on the bank board in France that recently lost billions in a supposed one person embezzlement(due to a software glitch), a company that helped prop Sarkozy and is trying to buyout their largest competing bank in France, both of which have their own interests in various global parties interested with the new Iraq, mainly through subcontractors that seem to tie back with NaftaSib and the Abramoff circle that flew Congressmen to east Europe and financed groups opposed to our military in Kosovo.

      He’s been caught bribing Blair’s Ministry and is in big with the Iraqi National Congress. He’s also laundered electoral shifts to the right in Spain and Germany through the purchase of Kuwaiti oil companies and Iraqi subsidiaries from both Desert Storm and this war.

      Auchi accepted business awards in Illinois recently for some of his private business and it ties right back into Rezko.

      Auchi’s got a business that lists headquarters in Pakistan and is a defense/aerotech supplier as well…

      I’m not questioning if Barack met Auchi, he never takes notes of things, so I’ll assume a poor record keeper like Obama has legitimately honest ambitions for becoming President. Although that lack of detail and record in and of itself may actually disqualify him from meeting a competency threshold.

      What kind of lawyers never take notes?

      I’m questioning in Auchi’s contacts with Rezko, a man under arrest right now for Federal lawbreaking, and the man who sold Barack his house, lived across the street, and has done numerous contacts with Obama’s office when he was Illinois Senate and has been his main career contributor over a seventeen year partnership, is himself fit to be associated with a President to the point he’s shared this much history with the man.

      Where there’s smoke, there’s fire.

      If he’s no matter, why did Barack deny he’s known Rezko and try to say he’s only worked with him “for five hours” when he knows differently?

      Is that some new standard of truthiness that I’m not aware of yet? Did I miss the memo on what is a lie, and what simply failing to tell the truth is?

      This is the guy we’re going to have right America’s wrong course abroad as a member of the world community? Someone who is, on his best day when it comes to ethical concerns, obtuse?

      That Obama made a speech against dumb wars appears satisfied by his voting recod for war appropriations. A quote he took down when Bush declared “mission accomplished” and put up at a later time when war opposition gained traction once more only questioned tactics employed.

      Again, you deny Rezko had deep personal finaical dealings with Auchi? You’re aware Auchi also funds arms shipments into other countries in Africa where violence and ethnic conflicts rage?

      So Obama was against war, but apparently is in favor of occupation, as every vote he’s made would indicate. Or can he say one thing and do another, what’s different from Bush in that regard?

      • simon

        Mr Murder wrote:

        Rezko’s ties to Auchi are the important part.

        He’s the middle man.

        You cannot deny those exist.

        Thank you, that’s what I meant to say –

        if I were eloquent, and not so lazy.

      • Cee

        Sigh. Okay, I’ll say Auchi is connected to Viktor Butt too. Does that make it true?

        • simon

          Comment by Cee | 2008-02-09 10:55:52

          Sigh. Okay, I’ll say Auchi is connected

          You’re discounting proven fact.

          Do you create your own reality too?

          I was under the impression Bush’s reality was being created for him, the results would seem to indicate he’s not in control, with every stupid move, he’s isolated a little further.

          It’s so darned complicated, isnt it?

          • simon

            Cee wrote:

            Sigh. Okay, I’ll say Auchi is connected to Viktor Butt too. Does that make it true?

            I’m sorry, Cee, I inadvertently edited your quote, making it appear you agreed Obama was filthy.

            My mistake, I corrected it.

            I’d never do that, edit your quote purposely, I can actually argue my points.

            Comment by Cee | 2008-02-09 10:55:52

            Sigh. Okay, I’ll say Auchi is connected

            You’re discounting proven fact.

            Do you create your own reality too?

            I was under the impression Bush’s reality was being created for him, the results would seem to indicate he’s not in control, with every stupid move, he’s isolated a little further.

            It’s so darned complicated, isnt it?

      • Cee

        The companies are suspected of rigging the bids for the cell phone contracts in favor of Nadhmi Auchi, who owns part of Orascom and a controlling interest in the bank BNP Paribas, which “is the French bank selected by Saddam Hussein to run the Oil for Food program.”

        http://www.cdmawatch.org/

        According to Pentagon and Justice Department sources, U.S. investigators discovered that Ahmad Chalabi and his business partners were involved in fraudulently obtaining cellular phone licenses in Iraq. The Pentagon’s Undersecretary of Defense for International Technology Security John (Jack) Shaw smelled a neo-con rat when the Iraqi Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), in late 2003, awarded cellular phone contracts to three companies – Orascom, Atheer, and Asia-Cell – with ties to Ahmed Chalabi.

        http://www.cdmawatch.org/trouble_for_neo_cons.html

      • shirin

        Rezko’s ties to Auchi do not tie Obama to Auchi. And they certainly do not tie Obama to Saddam Hussein.

        This is looking like a desperate attempt to assign guilt by association via imaginative speculation.

        I don’t buy it.

        Isn’t there enough actual, demonstrable, documented stuff you can use against Obama? There is for me.

        • Mike Howell

          Barack Hussein Obama asked Rezko to help him get his dream house because he couldn’t afford it. This was while Rezko was being investigated and most of Chicago knew about it.

          That implies that they were either really good friends of 20 years, with whom he had had numerous business dealings, so he should know about Rezko’s Iraqi billionaire buddy who recently loaned Rezko 3.5 million (as well as making a loan to the Governor’s indicted point man)

          or

          Barack Hussein Obama will take cash from anyone to get a mansion.

          • shirin

            1. What does his middle name have to do with anything?

            2. So, what you are saying is that if person A has any kind of unsavory friendship or association with a person B, then everyone who knows, associates with or is related to person A inherits that unsavory friendship or association with person B whether or not they themselves have ever associated with or even met person B? That is called the fallacy of guilt by association.

            LOL and on top of that some of you people insist that if person B has an associate with badguy C, then everyone who knows person A is also somehow associated with person C.

            What an uspeakable assault on logic!

            • Mike Howell

              shirin –

              Wow! So you’re asking me to believe that Barack Hussein Obama, asked Rezko while he was under investigation to help him pay for his mansion and he didn’t have a clue that the guy was buddies with Auchi!

              Who do you think Rezko asked to try and get Auchi in the country?

              Do you think that Barack Hussein Obama shouldn’t have asked Rezko to help him get his dream house – especially when Rezko was failing to heat and maintain his buildings?

              Do you prefer that all of your politicians try to get mansions from people being investigated for kickback schemes?

              • shirin

                Why do you feel the need to keep hammering away at Obama’s middle name, Mike? What does his middle name have to do, Mike, with his ability to serve as President that you feel you have to keep reminding people of it?

                “So you’re asking me to believe that Barack Hussein Obama, asked Rezko while he was under investigation to help him pay for his mansion and he didn’t have a clue that the guy was buddies with Auchi!”

                This is nonsense. What does his knowing or not knowing about Rezko’s association with Auchi have to do with Obama’s asking Resko to help him obtain a piece of real estate? Is one now required to vet all of someone’s other relationships before asking them for assistance with something?

                “Who do you think Rezko asked to try and get Auchi in the country?”

                I don’t know, and neither do you. And I, unlike you, am not interested in speculation on things like that. I gave that up after a few of my lovely speculations turned out to be wrong, and I felt compelled to apologize to the subjects of my unfortunate gossip. After that I decided it was best not to pass on nasty gossip about people unless I knew what I was talking about.

                “Do you think that Barack Hussein Obama shouldn’t have asked Rezko to help him get his dream house – especially when Rezko was failing to heat and maintain his buildings?”

                There is no logical relationship between the two things, and even if you think there is, that is hardly the most troubling piece of the story of Obama’s New House. Far more troubling, among other things, is the way the Obamas appear to have used Mrs. Obama’s position to manipulate the zoning and other rules.

                “Do you prefer that all of your politicians try to get mansions from people being investigated for kickback schemes”

                I don’t give a damn from whom my politicians try to get their houses any more than I care about their sex lives. I also don’t give a damn what their middle names are – or even what their first or last names are. In addition, I don’t care what their religions are as long as they are able to keep their religious beliefs separate from their responsibilities as elected officials. And I don’t get all excited if my politicians know someone who knows someone who is disreputable.

                Based on the things I DO care about, I will not vote for Barack Obama. I don’t need a bunch of speculative gossip about his personal affairs and relationships to make that decision.

          • shirin

            PS Mike, what the hell is your point in hammering away at Obama’s middle name? What is the significance of that middle name?

            And by the way, what is YOUR middle name?

            • Mike Howell

              Handsome.

        • Cee

          This is looking like a desperate attempt to assign guilt by association via imaginative speculation.

          Shirin,

          Of course.

          • TeakWoodKite

            I guess Donna Brazil is looking for another party soon. No one will throw sand in Fitzgerald eyes on this one.

          • Mike Howell

            Shirin & Cee –

            I don’t expect either of you to appreciate or comprehend the phrase “appearance of impropriety” but it’s an ethical term relating to actions that are to use Shirin’s term unsavory.

            Judges and Prosecutors and yes, even, Presidential candidates should avoid the appearance of impropriety.

            Coming to a theater near you: The Barack Hussein Obama story: The Appearance of Impropriety.

            • shirin

              Mike Howell, you underestimate me. I am very familiar with the term. It does not justify the kind of gossipy speculation I have been seeing here.

              And what, by the way, is the basis for your obsession with Obama’s middle name? You appear to consider it significant in some way, so please explain in what way you believe it is significant.

              • simon

                Shirin wrote:

                And what, by the way, is the basis for your obsession with Obama’s middle name? You appear to consider it significant in some way, so please explain in what way you believe it is significant.

                Because it makes Obama as exotic and as darned attractive as Patrick Fitzgerald.

                Isn’t honey fitz just dreamy?

        • simon

          Rezko’s ties to Auchi do not tie Obama to Auchi. And they certainly do not tie Obama to Saddam Hussein.

          This is looking like a desperate attempt to assign guilt by association via imaginative speculation.

          I don’t buy it.

          Isn’t there enough actual, demonstrable, documented stuff you can use against Obama? There is for me.

          I think you’re ignoring the bigger picture, which is Rezko’s relationship to the Illinois and American political structure, as well as Auchi’s American ties.

          Obviously, there is enough information to appoint a special prosecutor, in fact any other administration would have, and I suppose that is part of Patrick Fitzgerald’s job.

          But no amount of spin will make this go away, you’re using old PR techniques to discount a very potent criminal situation.

          Obama and Rezko have known each other for over 17 years, someone mentioned he may have even been recruited as an Arab American, to enter American politics.

          Nothing wrong with that.

          There is, though, when Rezko is connected to so vile a man as Auchi, and so closely.

          And Auchi did donate directly to Obama’s political campaign, in 2005.

          Aren’t you even curious about Auchi’s money laundering past, and don’t you question WHY Obama would associate with a man like this?

          Why not?

          Just as you accuse others of making hasty generalizations, you do, too.

          Why are you willfully ignoring facts, and editing what is inconvenient to you?

          It’s almost a form of denial.

          Rezkowatch, the blog, was served with papers today, from Auchi’s lawyer, to not in any way speculate about Auchi’s bad deeds.

          It’s very nice they’ve chosen to help get the word out, isn’t it?

          • shirin

            Simon, I made my decision regarding Obama months ago based on things that are entirely out in the open, unambiguous, and well documented. I have no need to go further than that, and in particular I have no need to indulge in the fallacy of guilt by association with Saddam Hussein. So, pardon me while I put my attention on things other than investigating Rezko, and so on.

            “I think you’re ignoring the bigger picture, which is Rezko’s relationship to the Illinois and American political structure, as well as Auchi’s American ties.”

            I was responding to the baseless speculation in a blog entry Mr. Murder referred me to. That blog entry went to great lengths to create an imaginary relationship between Obama and Saddam Hussein. How does the “big picture” you are referring to logically establish any relationship between Obama and Saddam, or even between Obama and Auchi?

            Obama and Rezko appear to be friends. Rezko has an association with Auchi. Auchi had an association with Saddam Hussein. Therefore, Obama has an association with Auchi, and if Obama has an association with Auchi, he had an association with, or at least was influenced by, Saddam Hussein? It’s absurd.

            As for Auchi’s American ties, so what?

            “Obviously, there is enough information to appoint a special prosecutor, in fact any other administration would have, and I suppose that is part of Patrick Fitzgerald’s job.”

            Then let’s stop speculating about associations that may or may not (and in the case of Obama-Saddam, almost certainly does not) exist, and call for a special prosecutor.

            “But no amount of spin will make this go away, you’re using old PR techniques to discount a very potent criminal situation.”

            No, I am simply using logic to point out that assigning to Obama a relationship with Auchi and (for heaven’s sake!) Saddam Hussein is pure speculation with no basis in currently known reality.

            “Obama and Rezko have known each other for over 17 years…”

            So what? I have friends I have known for over 30 years, some of whom have done some not-very-good things, and associated with some not-very-good people, most of whom I have never even met. Am I also, then, tainted with those same associations simply because of my friends?

            “someone mentioned he may have even been recruited as an Arab American, to enter American politics.

            Nothing wrong with that.”

            Then why mention the Arab-American thing at all?

            “There is, though, when Rezko is connected to so vile a man as Auchi, and so closely.”

            Sorry, I just don’t see how that connects Obama to Auchi, and I certainly do not see how that connects Obama to Saddam Hussein.

            “And Auchi did donate directly to Obama’s political campaign, in 2005.”

            And that somehow makes Obama guilty by association?

            “Aren’t you even curious about Auchi’s money laundering past…”

            I am a lot more curious about a lot of other things.

            “,i>and don’t you question WHY Obama would associate with a man like this?”

            Where is the evidence that Obama has associated with Auchi. I haven’t seen it yet. All I have seen is speculation, some of it quite ridiculous.

            “Why not?”

            Because, as I have said, I made my decision about Obama months ago based on things that are visible, clear, and well-known. Therefore, it is not necessary for me to examine things that are arcane, ambiguous, to a great degree speculative, and even if true are not going to influence me to change my decision.

            “Just as you accuse others of making hasty generalizations, you do, too.”

            What are you talking about? I haven’t made a single solitary generalization in this matter. I have merely pointed out that so far I have not seem anything that associates Obama personally with Auchi except that he knows someone who is associated with Auchi. That is called guilt by association, and is fallacious reasoning.

            “Why are you willfully ignoring facts, and editing what is inconvenient to you?”

            What facts? No one has as yet shown me facts that demonstrate an actual relationship between Obama and Auchi, let alone between Obama and Saddam. Mr Murder showed me a blog entry that contained a lot of speculation, some of it quite wild. Mostly all people keep saying here is that Obama knows Rezko, and Rezko knows Auchi, and Rezko has some involvement Illinois politics, and Auchi has American connections, and therefore Obama is associated with Auchi, and was influenced by Saddam Hussein to speak against invading Iraq.

            “It’s almost a form of denial.”

            So, in your world requiring something more than speculation is a form of denial?

            “Rezkowatch, the blog, was served with papers today, from Auchi’s lawyer, to not in any way speculate about Auchi’s bad deeds.”

            And that constitutes evidence that Obama has a personal relationship to Auchi and was influenced by Saddam Hussein exactly how?

            “It’s very nice they’ve chosen to help get the word out, isn’t it?”

            I’m all for exposing crooks and bad guys, but so far I have seen no actual evidence that ties Obama to Auchi or to Saddam Hussein.

            • simon

              I have to disagree, Shirin.

              It would appear you are creating your own reality.

              • shirin

                “It would appear you are creating your own reality.”

                Exactly the opposite is the case, Simon. The fact is that I am refusing to accept the reality you have created for yourselves based on speculation and gossip, and am waiting to see some actual evidence before I decide what the reality is. In short, I am agnostic on whether or not Obama has a personal or direct relationship to Auchi simply because he appears to have a relationship to Rezko. It might be true, but so far, try as they might, no one has shown me any evidence that convinces me that it is.

                If that is “creating one’s own reality” in your world, then we have very different ideas what that means.

                • simon

                  No, Shirin, you’re refusing to acknowledge fact in regard to Obama.

                  • shirin

                    No, Simon, I am waiting for some real, actual evidence before deciding. So far no one has shown me any. So far all anyone has been able to come up with is the guilt-by-association fallacy, and some rather wild and gossipy speculation. That’s not good enough for me. It hasn’t been since as a younger person I learned some hard lessons about those kinds of things and stopped indulging in them.

                    If it’s out there, let me see it. I don’t really care whether Obama is rotten inside and out, or whether he is pure as the driven snow. I have my own very sufficient reasons for not supporting him.

    • s. hall

      Perhaps if the media would stop idolizing Obama we might the truth about Obama’s connections to the middle east. Right now Obama is an empty suit–just saying hope and change does not get you there. He sounds more like Rainman everyday.

      • Mike Howell

        s.hall -

        I couldn’t agree more. And Obama zombies remind me of Rush’s dittoheads minus the humor.

      • shirin

        The truth about Obama’s connections to the Middle East? What is this obsession suddenly that people have about exposing Obama as having some kind of connections to the Middle East (I guess that is a bad thing these days, now that the Middle East is the new Communism)?

        • simon

          Well, Shirin, it isn’t cool when your own government profits from and promotes the deaths of other American citizens, dismantling the American security apparatus for a buck, in the process.

          Secondly, foreign influence on American policy isn’t really healthy for long term prospects.

          Which brings up another point, it’s Obama, but it’s also much of Congress, apparently.

          How can they really investigate when so many appear complicit?

  • S. Markom


    just another tabloid outlet bent on pandering to the lowest common denominator.

    You just found this out? This network never had an ounce of credibility and it has diminshed since then.

    Getting your news from any of these cable so-called news stations is like a child reading My Weekly Reader. It is pure entertainment as far as I am concerned as rates right with Bill Maher and Jon Stewart.

    “Credibility?” When did they ever have that?

  • CWZ

    My blood pressure is already high enough without cable TV. Take my advice and go back to rabbit ears. Lehrer and the Internet will keep you up to date. And your doctor will be pleased with the results.

  • kenoshaMarge

    I was having a problem with my blood pressure and with anger management. So I don’t watch any of the blowhards on MSNBC and very, very little of CNN.
    I get the bits and pieces that are important online and no longer sit in my living room ranting at the television like a lunatic. Fortunately most of the other little old ladies over at the Senior Center are also Hillary supporters so I do have someone to talk to and the one older gentleman who supports John McCain keeps his distance. (I think he’s afraid of us. As it’s about six or seven to one.)

    Keith used to me on my must watch list but he’s proved to my satisfaction that he’s no Edward R. Morrow, no matter how many slogans he spouts.

    Want to watch someone that never disappoints, try Bill Moyers. I never miss him and he is very even handed so the old blood pressure stays low. I especially like the segments with Kathleen Hall Jamison. She’s terrific!

    • Mike Howell

      kenoshaMarge-

      Right on!

  • Silver

    Well, I don’t watch Jon Stewart anymore either. I used to watch him every night, but there have been several references made where you can tell he’s an Obama fan. He’s not blatant about it, just a subtle sentence here and there. — And he’s definitely funny, insightful, and worth watching. But I’ve listened to so much media bias from other outlets, I can’t afford to listen to another ounce of pro-Obama drivel!! Not even a smidge!! So I just go to web sites that are pro-Hillary now, or at least reasonably so, because that’s all my psyche can presently take.

  • bob h

    “My blood pressure is already high enough without cable TV.”

    I’ve never understood why I should pay $40 or more per month to have shit piped into my house, and have never subscribed. I have seen Olbermann only once, on Bill Moyers, and he impressed me as someone who only knew what his speechwriters were telling him to say.

  • CK

    So Time Warner, Disney, Viacom, NewsCorp, GE, Clear Channel Communications and SBG have agenda.
    So seven corporations all share a preferred candidate. It’s not even a minyan, let alone a conspiracy; must be just another in the continuing set of co-incidences run amok amongst us.
    “I am shocked, SHOCKED I say; to discover a co-ordinated agenda going on here.”
    Let’s instead give out some love to John Stewart ( strike breaking scab wholly owned by Viacom, and Steven Colbert likewise a strike breatking scab also wholly owned by Viacom). Stewart is a strong supporter of McCain, Colbert of Huckabee. But hey they are hip cool white dudes, we are all in on the snark. Only it isn’t snark. Huckabee 4 times so far on Colbert, McCain 20+ times on Stewart. Hell bells Peggy Noonan got worshipful time on Stewart last week, John Bolton the week before and so on and so on. Not seeing a lot of pwog or even liberal voices there. Shouting FUCKYOU at Romney after he has gone does not quite cut it as a liberal mantra.
    Maybe Stewart will ask McCain about his Chelsea joke next time Stewart panders to him? YaThink?
    Olberman makes a few editorial strikes at Bush; this does not mean that in any way Olberman is infavour of any democrat. His job is to sell viagra and soap and pills, if there is a viagra buying market that is also anti-bush he will play to that market since nobody else was.
    I suppose it to be hardwired into human nature this desire to worship faraway imaginary heros; to read into them one’s own hopes and desires. It goes well with making everyone a hero since 9/11. The DMV clerk is as heroic as the fireman is as heroic as the REMF in the Green Zone is as heroic as the suited taking head on your favourite talkinghead show. It is good and democratic to define downwards those qualities that are in embarassingly short supply.

    • Fred C. Dobbs

      >>> …the REMF in the Green Zone…

      Now THERE’S a Blast From The Past!

      I wonder if, “pogue,” is still DoD usage.

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      Tough to disagree with your analysis. Well done.

    • Cee

      CK,

      You just reminded me of Huckabee appearing on Real Time with Bill Maher. I was thinking WTF?!

      • simon

        Cee wrote:

        You just reminded me of Huckabee appearing on Real Time with Bill Maher. I was thinking WTF?!

        Why?

        I would describe myself as liberal democrat, yet my father was a conservative republican. I respected him greatly, had much to learn from him.

        I don’t agree with a John Mccain, say, but certainly there is much to learn from him, I respect his experience.

      • CK

        Because it helps sell soap.
        Dr. Paul received one appearance each on Colbert and Stewart, 2 ( I think ) on Maher, and 2 on Leno. Kucinich recieved even shorter shrift.
        These talking heads are there to sell soap, or cds or get asses in the seats for movie openings. They are not “heroes”, nor “courageous journalists”, nor “populists”, nor “voices for or of the people”. They draw a salary for selling crap between breathless buttsmooching of whoever’s book they have been instructed to sell, or whichever candidate their bosses tell them to present. Whenever you are tempted to think WTF, check your assumptions first, if one of your assumptions is something like: “this talking head is different from the other talking heads because he is a true liberal/conservative/progressive.” Ask yourself who writes out his paycheck. That should usually answer the WTF with a WOCD. ( Well, of course. DUH.)

  • Donovan Fraser

    anyone…is there any truth to this??? someone sent it to me and i was just wondering……kind of an interesting angle…

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/citizenship.php

    dept of state: McCain not eligible to be president?

    Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and
    U.S. diplomatic or consular facilities are not part of the United States
    within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of
    such a facility is not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and
    does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth.

    • TeakWoodKite

      A mere “technicality” and since the AG won’t enforse the laws it is, sadly, a mute point.

      • Fred C. Dobbs

        And a moot one, too, whether it speaks or not.

    • CWZ

      True, if a non-US citizen gives birth to a child on a US military installation. But every child of a US citizen, regardless of where he or she is born, is a US citizen by birth.

      • CWZ

        To clarify, it is true that the installation abroad is not part of US jurisdiction.

        As long as one of McCain’s parents were a US citizen, howdver, then he’s a US citizen by birth.

        • Retired

          And What Really Happened knows this, too. This item in their website is pure bullshit. And they know it.

          • Donovan Fraser

            thanks for clearing that up for me. I appreciate it guys and gals

  • silver

    CK, nope, not gonna give Jon Stewart the love you’re askin’ for. When he comments to Obama during an interview, “Why would Hillary’s experience as First Lady be considered experience? It was just First Lady.” I’m thinking WTF??? Am I the only one who watched her appear before Congressional hearings on health care? Or heard the speech to China on women’s rights?? He’s a great soul, I’m not going to argue that—and after the election I’ll start watching his show again. But my mental amazement factor cannot take anymore WTFs from commentators or comedians!!! notta one. The gas tank is full!!!

    • CK

      Give him negative love, it is what I suggested in my diatribe. Stewart and Colbert are TOOLS designed and fabricated to appeal to the semi-hip while selling the old and tired as if they were somehow maverick and relevant.
      What made Colbert suddenly relevant? His appearance at the journalists suckup forum two years ago. Who chose him for that job? Karl Rove.
      Who chose Obama as suddenly a serious candidate? Emanuel and Rove.
      Who is Hillary’s strongest support? AIPAC and NewsCorp.
      How much air did John Edwards get?
      How much air did Richardson get?
      or Paul
      or Kucinich
      Now I will grant that the deadtree and public ariwaves press cannot sell a complete turd and make folks thing it is paté de fois gras witness Guiliani, but they do direct the dialogue.

      • Cee

        CK,

        I agree with you but what are our options?

        I feel that I have to fight to take control of the people who have been (as you out it) chosen for us.

        • simon

          Cee wrote:

          CK,

          I agree with you but what are our options?

          I feel that I have to fight to take control of the people who have been (as you out it) chosen for us.

          Do you think Obama has been chosen for us, too?

          You are almost making that case, in your defense of him, if one were to read the points you make, the absences you leave, defining truth, so to speak.

          But you know, it is not my intent to partake in a civil war, here, but it is good to understand your reasoning for supporting Obama, it helps to understand how you think, giving a more objective view of Obama’s supporters, isolating them.

          • Cee

            Do you think Obama has been chosen for us, too?

            Simon,

            This is what CK is saying.
            We certainly are manipulated. Look at how people who are speaking truth to power like Kuchinich and Paul are ridiculed and marginalized.

            • simon

              Cee wrote:

              This is what CK is saying.
              We certainly are manipulated. Look at how people who are speaking truth to power like Kuchinich and Paul are ridiculed and marginalized.

              But why do you support Obama, Cee?

        • CK

          @Cee: I will vote for Dr. Paul in my primary.
          If he wins, I will vote for him in the November Election. If he doesn’t win the nomination, I will vote for whichever third or fourth party candidate most closely resembles my beliefs.
          McCain, Huckabee, Obama nor Clinton resonate with me. That is my individual chosen option.
          As a nation, it won’t matter who is elected in November. “It’s the stupids’ economy”; and none of these four is equipped to handle what is coming down the pike. There will be NO health care, not if we want to remain in Iraq.
          Food prices with 20% inflation will change the dynamics really quickly. Depressions are seriously ugly things, forget about illegal immigration, illegals are already going back to Mexico, the economy effects the most marginal first and illegal labour is always the most marginal. Find another trillion for AIPAC/LIKUD interventions in the middle east, it isn’t coming from the Chinese and the govt can only print so much fiat currency before inflation destroys what remains of the dollar and what remains of our creditors’ willingness to hold worthless paper or take it in trade for screws nuts bolts washers, washingmachines, mobos etc etc.
          That’s how I see it Cee. Evil times ahead; the kind of times that have led to ugly outbursts all through history. On top of the economics, add the untrustworthiness of the vote counting and picture Kenya writ large and with Zimbabwe’s inflation thrown in for good measure.
          ( My friend’s often comment on my sunny and cock-eyed optomistic nature.)

          • TeakWoodKite

            Evil times ahead vs optomistic nature
            The fabric is wearing thin and many are dis – infranchised, stacked deck no? The smile is still real.

            • CK

              Let me come at this from another tangent.
              In Boston the cops are going through the poorest neighbourhoods searching for guns.
              When Katrina hit, the FIRST thing the feds did was confiscate guns, then they went looking for trucks of aid to send away.
              The incidence of SWAT raids on wrong houses for non swat type events is increasing exponentially. Why send two donutchasers in a squad car when you can call out the paramilitary types to deliver arrest warrants? Along with the increase in erroneous noknocks is an increase in dead civilians, dead children, and now dead cops. Yet Not one of these erroneous swat clusterscrewups ever gets so much as a serious reprimand by the elected or appointed politicians. As long as the average US citizen was at least as well armed if not better armed than the local constabulary I had little fear for america’s future. The average citizen is now basically unarmed against the paras we have masquerading as your local boyos in blue.
              The supreme court has ruled that citizens have NO RIGHT TO police protection, and no expectation of same. Even in states with a Castle doctrine enacted into law, you have no defense if you fight back against home invaders in the early pre-dawn hours who turn out later to be noknock swat boys looking for another address. And if you do fight back you can be damn sure that there will be MARYJANE found somewhere on your property. A baggie dropped in plain sight on your living room floor or under your guest room bed.
              Now combine that with the wonderful “be a neighbourhood nibshit/snitch” program that DHS is running and the martial law programs that the FBI is doing in combination with “reliable” businesses.
              Yup I am an optimist.

              • TeakWoodKite

                I am constantly having an on going mental ping pong match between the comment Simon made about “Do you really think they (the government) would allow that to happen” and seeing that it is indeed not only being allowed but encouarged.
                I have seen first hand trail runs for the implementation of martial law in 1986.
                Nothing leads me to believe the facts have changed and if anything have gone unchecked.
                We have lived in the ownership society.
                Ownership is 9/10 of the law. The other 1/10?….gnip…gnop.gnip…gnop
                How to survive Feudalism in the 21st century.

          • shirin

            “I will vote for Dr. Paul in my primary.
            If he wins, I will vote for him in the November Election. If he doesn’t win the nomination, I will vote for whichever third or fourth party candidate most closely resembles my beliefs.            ”

            I voted for Edwards last Tuesday (I am registered as Decline to State, so I have choices as to which primary I vote in). In November I, too, will vote for whichever third party candidate most closely resembles my principles and beliefs.

            • CK

              Other than wishing you had voted for Dr. Paul, agreement is.

              • shirin

                I couldn’t have voted for him if I had wanted to because the Republicans do not allow anyone but Republicans to vote in their primary.

                I considered voting for Kucinich because he comes closest to meeting my views and principles, but decided to vote for Edwards because I felt that would make a statement closer to the kind I wanted to make.

          • Cee

            That’s how I see it Cee. Evil times ahead; the kind of times that have led to ugly outbursts all through history. On top of the economics, add the untrustworthiness of the vote counting and picture Kenya writ large and with Zimbabwe’s inflation thrown in for good measure.

            CK,

            I can’t disagree except that I can’t vote for a third party now. Been there. Done that.

            God help us.

            • CK

              God helps those who help themselves … to everything not bolted down.
              Cee, unless something untoward happens between now and november, your choice is one of the following 5: Obama, Clinton, McCain, Huckabee, not vote for the top line on the ballot. None of these is acceptable. Find a 6th choice, take it to the street, fund a Nader or a constitution party or a Green candidate or Cynthia McKinney. Yeah yeah its a wasted vote, the bastards have ground us down and we are but the jam between the giant’s toes. Ok stab them in the feet, slice their achilles tendons, SimonJester the polity, hack the voting machines and make all the votes be for the flying spaghetti monster or Cthulhu. If the system offends you rip it out and replace it.
              If the system does not offend you then go inside it and make it work. ( Gad that sounded like Tim from project runaway).
              Throwing your hands in the air is just a way to make yourself a BIGGER TARGET.

          • Bill Keyes

            Thanks CK

            I have avoided bogging here for some time because the obliviousness of most of the posters here except for you and CEE. They all whether for Obama or Hillary are ignoring what you so forcefully said which I will repeat with emphasis.

            “As a nation, it won’t matter who is elected in November. “It’s the stupids’ economy”; and none of these four is equipped to handle what is coming down the pike.”

            My fear is that what is “coming down the pike” is not only worse then the “30′s” but will happen before November and maybe even as early as summer……..

            but wait I have been out of touch, the bipartianship stimulus pkg is going to solve all that. I believe the logic here is that the Chinese loan us the money so we can buy their products and then everyone will be happy.

            What me worry? Whew!!!!!!

            Only kidding CK.

            “Evil times ahead; the kind of times that have led to ugly outbursts all through history.”

            Yeh ugly times like runs on banks, food riots
            and everything that comes to panicked ppl
            when their survival instinct kicks in.

            My oldest daughter and son in law are “negotiating” with Countrywide to lose their house without foreclosure. Of course they are bums with bad credit and irresposible spending habits right? No he has about a 790 credit score which got him a lot of credit cards with high limits that he has has to use because his wife can’t work because their youngest child has CP due to doctor FU but that is another story. The are very emotionally distraught that the vaunted American dream is disappearing before their eyes.

            They will survive of course mostly because his job is not in jeopardy but I am trying to point out that there are a lot of ppl like them who maybe aren’t in the first wave of fore closures that have been publicized but who are right on the edge.

            Bush have fucked the country beyond repair and all the horses of Hillary, Obama or even McCain will not stop it from collapsing much less put it back together again.

            I am going to Mexico in as soon as I can.

            • CK

              Sorry to hear about the ill times for your offspring. It is no consolation but they are just the first of many who had good credit scores and used the credit offered and are now finding out the limits and the pains of debt.
              Let me direct you to this site by an american expat in Mexico, he does love it there.
              http://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

              For myself, the plan is a well stocked but unobtrusive floating bordello/houseboat/computer repair boat somewhere down near Bluefields.
              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/topic/story.cfm?c_id=272&objectid=10491443&pnum=0

            • TeakWoodKite

              Mexico in as soon as I can.
              Se habla espanol, gringo?

              Bill 60 percent of the nation is second or third wave. The sets are coming in rapid succession. Secession is soon to follow as OBL stated.

    • s. hall

      Isn’t it funny how many great president we have had before the advent of television and how few we have had since. Before TV we listened to what our candidates had to say now we just look. And if we feel comfortable with what they look like we vote for them and suffer the consequences. Could FDR become president today?

      • CK

        He smoked, worse he affected an amber cigarette holder.
        He rode in a wicker wheel chair.
        He DRANK of the evil Islamofascist cult Al Cohol.
        He had a snooty highbrow edumacated accent.
        You knew he would never wish to have a beer with you.
        He seldom went to church.
        He admired Mussolini.
        He laughed with folks not at them, sometimes he even laughed uproariously not at all a “serious” man.
        A perfect candidate indeed.

  • http://www.despair.com/sacrifice1.html Smilin’ Jim

    I do not, do not, do not understand why people watch talking heads for news: It’s not news anymore kiddiepoos, it’s been all show biz since the end of the 80′s. I am even more aghast of those who hang on the words of some bozo in Armani and a four hundred dollar haircut. Can’t people form their own opinions anymore?

    “BBC and the Jim Lehrer News Hour”
    I have to work for a living.

    In 30 minutes I peruse the web pages of The Mercury News (my local), the LA Times, The Washington Post and The New York Times. If we have screwed the pooch somewhere in the world or have a remarkable domestic story, I then cuss a blue streak and blow another twenty minutes and scoot on to The Irish Times (world news only), The Beeb, Al Jazeera, Le Monde, FAZ and The Japan Times to get a version with a bias, to be certain, but without our self-effacing lies.

    It’s sort of like common mode rejection.

  • ghost2

    Late comment, but the reader’s letter you posted is right on the money.

    You can’t believe how much it offends me (and frankly pi**es me off) to see defeatist language by democrats. Such as, … Clinton will moblize the GOP smear machine… she will mobilize the wingnuts… Translation: if you don’t make noises, the republicans may not notice that we have an election, and so we could win.

    As if the election of the POTUS is likely to go quietly, and without a fight. You think the corporation and the interests will be QUIET in the election of the most powerful person on the planet??? The rank stupidity of those who think if it’s not Hillary Clinton, and if they are just nice enough, they may be allowed to win.

    Anytime, someone posted comments at dkos that Obama cannot be elected b/c lots of bigots won’t vote for him, I also wrote back in anger and told them to shove it. If you call yourself progressive, you fight TOOTH AND NAIL for what you believe in, and fight to move your country forward, whether it’s electing the first woman or the first black president. I have reservations about Obama, notably his experience and the kind of campaign he is running, but worries about stupid bigots ain’t one of them.

    • CK

      The president of the USA is, barely, the most powerful person in the world today. By this date, 2 years from now, the most powerful people in the world will be Hu and Wen of the PRC. Diplomatically they already are, economically they are advancing steadily and smoothly closer to total dominance. Enjoy the reality of having lived in what once was a nation that many admired morally and all admired economically. Unfortunately most of you here cannot afford an estancia in Paraguay for your retirement.

      • simon

        The president of the USA is, barely, the most powerful person in the world today. By this date, 2 years from now, the most powerful people in the world will be Hu and Wen of the PRC. Diplomatically they already are, economically they are advancing steadily and smoothly closer to total dominance. Enjoy the reality of having lived in what once was a nation that many admired morally and all admired economically.

        Do you see, though, changes, slowly, that would indicate this death of empire is emerging into, as another so eloquently put it, “the rebirth of the American republic,?” that never really went anywhere, anyway?

        That corruption connected to Auchi, and Obama, Perle, Black, goes straight to China, too, those parallel economies will not survive, cannot, given all convergent factors.

        So, what do you think will happen to China?

        • TeakWoodKite

          What was Nixon’s original intent regarding China?

          • simon

            Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2008-02-09 17:52:13

            What was Nixon’s original intent regarding China?

            At this point, I’m starting to think a new market to launder money.

            • TeakWoodKite

              Cheap labor?

              • simon

                Cheap labor?

                To break unions?

          • CK

            @ TeakWoodKite:
            I suspect a confluence of things were the motivator of his trip to china.
            He needed help in ending that war, he was a repbulican with a history of china bashing and “who lost China” whining so he had the credentials that no democrat had, he had a legacy to consider and historically the two things that are his legacy are “watergate”,”opening up China”.
            Every ruler since the early 1700s has been enamoured of the “oil for the lamps of China” idea. China as a place to sell to. “The wealth of the Orient” flowing into the coffers of the west. I don’t think he or anyone foresaw just how cynical and pragmatic the chinese version of “evil communism” is; nor how quickly they could throw off the Mao model for something very capitalistic.
            Today it is easier to start a business in China than it is in the USA, much easier to put up a factory, hire quality help, produce a product, do unfettered research— all easier and, at least for the short run, more profitable.
            So now the wealth of the west has flowed into the banks and companies of China and the Chinese are stopping the flow of paper. They have the factories now and the science and the research what do they need with worthless fiat currency backed by the promises of politicians for sale?

            • TeakWoodKite

              Thanks CK for the thoughtful insights…
              I was looking at the “squiggly things” and came across this artical was wondering what you thought about it.

              Call Their Bluff
              January 28, 2008
              Mike Moore
              The Space Review

              http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=2111

              • CK

                In reading the link, I kept hearing the squeals of pigs trying to get someone, anyone to pour more budget money in their trough. By my count, there are three nations guaranteed and probably 5 more close to guaranteed to be able to plink a satellite out of the sky. Hell even Iran has just started a space program.
                High ground wins is an old military shibboleth. So whoever holds space holds the high ground until someone places a permanent base on the moon. Sitting on top of the earth’s gravity well is the ultimate high ground. To lob a guided rock over the moon’s gravity barrier takes a lot less energy than lobbing a rock over the Earth’s gravity barrier. Anyone with a militarized moonbase can lob rocks all day and never worry about reprisals. Which explains why there has never been and never will be private space exploration. For a more complete understanding of this you could read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
                If you assume that the USA can maintain its position as global suckerupper of every resource, then yeah the russkiislamosinovietnamesecherokee nation is coming to get your car, rape your dog and make your wife submit to her husband.
                I disagree with several other of his assumptions and contentions. China is not intent on integrating into, they are intent on stabilizing the international economic system in their favour, in effect China has recognized how the USA did it, understands just how the USA screwed up and is intent on making other mistakes than ours.
                As for why the Chinese downed their own satellite, maybe they had projected the trajectory and impact point and didn’t want their satellite crashing into whatever is at that impact point. Say Cheyenne Mountain or DC metro or Shanghai.
                I understand the american desire for poker metaphors and they have a place when one is dealing with others who have the same cultural background. China plays a lot of GO, poker not so much. Helps sometimes to at least try to see the world through the other guy’s eyes or understand his games background. Which the author of that link is basically unable to do.

                • TeakWoodKite

                  China has recognized how the USA did it.
                  Good point.

                  making other mistakes than ours.

                  What are they in your view?

                  Sorry about being OT

                  • CK

                    Being a certifiable genius, I will not know what their mistakes will be until after they have made them and they become obvious to the rest of the universe.
                    Right this instant, I am having difficulty finding any mistakes they are making diplomatically. Economically they may not be able to decouple their economy from the US economy fast enough to avoid some nasty side effects from our coming depression, and probably second order effects as our depression scorches Europe and that in turn effects China.
                    They are certainly boxing Japan into a untentantable situation vis a vis the japanes desire to export all inflation to the rest of the world.
                    Militarily, the Chinese just finished a fine mutual admiration society deal with India. And they are playing well with the pakistan situation, without China’s support Musharev would have been for the jump months ago; which would not have made either China, India, iran or the USA happy.
                    The thing that most strikes me is that China does not have the evangelical calling, they do not send missionaries to subvert others. This is one of the USA’s HUGE failures and irredeemable sins. But it is also good to remember that along with inventing paper money, China invented implaccable bureaucracy.
                    And as with so many peoples, the chinese too involve themselves with regulating personal foibles and vices as though they were crimes against others or against property.

            • simon

              But it is also incredibly corrupt, even more corrupt than America, we speak of a corrupt Chicago, my father tried for years to open his own electrical union shop in Chicago, but he refused to pay the bribe money to the right people.

              So he never did, gave up his dream as opposed to becoming a part of that system.

              I see business running to China as if it’s this perfect state, everything America isn’t, and that’s nonsense.

              It’s a quick cash turnaround, if even, after the first blush, it’s a mess, I see failure, there, for many reasons.

              And I think they use the Chinese markets to launder, extensively. If that parallel economy hits a bump, investors are screwed.

              • simon

                One more thought, CK, what struck me in your post was the idea you might be looking at China through Western eyes, western thought patterns, bias.

                Sometimes it helps to recognize your own projections, we all do it.

                • CK

                  Corruption is in the eyes of the fleeced.
                  A little baaksheesh makes the world work better. Certainly I look at the world through my eyes and they are limited. I am not a great GO player but I can appreciate its intricacies as they are pointed out to me by those smarter than I.
                  As long as corruption is kept at a reasonable level to grease the hinges of the otherwise hidebound bureaucracy it is fine. Go much above 5 to 10 % and corruption becomes a bit of an impediment to productivity and profitability. You call China incredibly corrupt, when the level of corruption there hits “incredible” the most egregious get their heads literally handed to them. When corruption hits the “incredible” level in the USA we just elect the most corrupt and call it a democracy. Your dad chose not to pay his tithe to the actual powers that run Chicago, fine … he deserves a medal for his honesty and a swift kick for his lack of “sophistication.” As long as one believes that parasites deserve to exist, someone will be paying the government parasites or the quasi-government parasites. In ChiTown you pay the mayor and you pay Capone or you lose your market. Same same in every american city, same same in Liverpool or Smolensk or Shanghai or Sydney or Boston.
                  Want a drink during prohibition? You paid a tithe to either Old Joe Kennedy or one of his subsidiaries. Third generation of that money is governores wives and charity curators. So excuse me but I don’t think the western definition of corruption is meaningful outside of a GOGO convention or a revival tent.

                  • simon

                    Corruption is in the eyes of the fleeced.A little baaksheesh makes the world work better.

                    Then we get poison in our food, and the US has a new way to game China.

                    Not gonna work for you, if you’re corrupt, or Chinese.

                    You call China incredibly corrupt, when the level of corruption there hits “incredible” the most egregious get their heads literally handed to them.

                    This is untrue, scapegoats have their heads handed to them, the others go free.

                    BTW, is this Chinese cultural purity also applicable to those still alive, but responsible for the failed Chinese infrastructure?

                    Water and food are in short supply, overall, water supply being outsourced to the French, last I heard) the air and local water supplies are filthy, overall.

                    How will this affect China’s economic future, how will this stress the situation, slow economic development? Can I game the Chinese corruption from within, how can the US, say, use this to weaken the Chinese economy, and further corrupt simplistic thinkers?

                    Lots of ways to game the stupidly, speciously corrupt, see?

                    In ChiTown you pay the mayor and you pay Capone or you lose your market. Same same in every american city, same same in Liverpool or Smolensk or Shanghai or Sydney or Boston.

                    Well, no, my father did do small business on the side, ran a small business out of our basement, sort of a handyman, in addition to his union responsibilities as an electrician.

                    He liked to putter.

                    It was enough, we lived well enough.

                    I’m not one to accept the status quo, esp when I see weakness, or a chance for improvement. All those cracks, when others cant recognize their own psychological or intellectual weaknesses, are possibilities for exploitation.

                    And corruption will eventually destroy any system where it exists.

                    Neocon thought is simple specious analogue thought,(enemies, what enemies? how would an enemy game my corruption? everything is fine, we have the whitehouse) — which should explain why they have failed.

        • CK

          Those who can be bought will be bought, but at fire sale prices. For a “rebirth of the American republic”, there would first have to be people who believed in the Republic as a form of government not as a usurped party name.
          Empires have not yet ever devolved back to republics.
          China is in the process of decoupling its economy from the USA. The world has long enough gotten pneumonia every time the usa gets a mild case of the sniffles. Since other than weapons and soybeans we produce little the rest of the world wants to buy, the decoupling will be much less painful for the Chinese than it will for us.
          The Chinese learned how easy it was to buy american politicians from watching Reagan go to Japan for his multi million dollar payoff. But like any good capitalist they realized that as the supply of available quislings rises the price necessary to pay for any of them falls ( in inflation adjusted terms using a gold standard currency). I am reminded that during the Vietnam war, Russian and Chinese advisors helped the Vietnamese with interrogations. Gee I wonder … I mean why pay for the cow when the milk is free.
          On a positive note, I advise learning to speak Mandarin, it is a delightful language, musical and subtle.

          • simon

            CK says:

            For a “rebirth of the American republic”, there would first have to be people who believed in the Republic as a form of government not as a usurped party name.

            Your evidence to the contrary is?

            Do you understand America, or do you see it through the eyes of a corrupt Washington elite?

            I’m sorry, I disagree with your fundamental premise.

            I understand the points you make, but we take a different appraoch in evaluating the same information, CK.

            • CK

              My evidence to the contrary is that the USA encourages everyone to vote and counts each vote as equally valid in determining future course. Not each voice of course, just each vote. Jos Stalin loved democracy because as he understood, it is enough that the mass of people know there has been an election. It matters not how they voted, what matters is who counts the vote. In this republic the people do not count the vote and are happy with that.
              I should have added the qualifier “enough” as in … be enough people who believed in…
              my evidence that there is not enough is the failure of Dr. Paul to obtain much above 15% of the vote in any of the states so far. He being the only candidate who mostly believes in a republic not an empire. Unfortunately he too believes in democracy.
              I am not affiliated with DC in any way except as I must allow the denizens to steal part of my income each quarter and that I do exercise my franchise in futility every two years. As to my corruption well of course I revel in it but it is purely an outside the beltway private kind of corruption, elite only in so far as elite means restricted to a very small number of corrupted. In my case the number cannot become any smaller until I croak.
              Some parts of america I understand, other parts are alien and other parts are not worth expending more than minimal effort to study. Do I understand why anyone would want to be a cop or a pol or an public master? No, deep down inside of me I lack the desire to force other folks to be like me or think like me or worship what I worship or tithe to me at gunpoint. There are many handbaskets to ride to hell in, I will ride my own and have no interest in telling others which to ride nor charging them for riding their own.

              • simon

                Again, I have to disagree.

                Yes, elections are stolen, but those who steal are held accountable, even if NOT in a court of law, publically.

                There is always a thorn in the side of the corrupt, here, even with Diebold, most states are in the process of examining the validity of the form, most trying to work out a better system.

                You don’t acknowledge that, why?

                There has been significant outcry about Bush stealing the elections, it may take 20 years, but people are actively working to insure it doesn’t happen again, and find the truth.

                Just think what a real press could do.

                Some parts of America I understand, other parts are alien and other parts are not worth expending more than minimal effort to study. Do I understand why anyone would want to be a cop or a pol or an public master? No, deep down inside of me I lack the desire to force other folks to be like me or think like me or worship what I worship or tithe to me at gunpoint. There are many handbaskets to ride to hell in, I will ride my own and have no interest in telling others which to ride nor charging them for riding their own.

                Why would being a cop, or a pol necessarily indicate one would want to control others,tell them what to do, a function of narcissism?

                Some serve as a function of conscience.

                How do you define a pol, or a cop?

                Do you understand public service, in the manner of Jane Hull?

                I grew up Catholic, catholic schools, public service was empahsized, we were expected to work to make the culture better, give selflessly.

                Doesnt mean the ideal was fufilled, but it was certainly present.

                There are many selfless Americans, Dick Cheney’s vision is his own, he sees what he wants to see, not the truth.

                Again, I guess we have to disagree.

                • CK

                  Simon, because there is no backtracking time’s passage. So lots of states are bloviating about maybe doing something sometime about voting. Fine when they do something wake me. Otherwise it is just GooGO spam meant to lull the suckers.
                  Likewise Bush 2000, moan all one wants, there is not mulligan, no do over, no erasing 8 years of successful theft.
                  About cops and pols, we will just disagree.
                  Hull House was a private enterprise endowed by that generations equivalent of a Rezko. It bought him entrance to heaven. Jane Hull was a nice lady, a fine busybody, and incurable and incredible enforcer of one specific set of moral standards on foreign workers. Ideals on paper never move me much, actions performed are the reference. I am not an altruist, I do not put others ahead of my family nor strangers ahead of my friends. I even do private anonymous charity. Pray not in public neither do your good works in the spotlight of approval by the parasite class.
                  So we both agree that if the recipient of our good works knows that it is we who did the good thing, the value in the eyes of God of the GoodThing is diminished? Private preening is much more acceptable than public preening.

              • simon

                my evidence that there is not enough is the failure of Dr. Paul to obtain much above 15% of the vote in any of the states so far. He being the only candidate who mostly believes in a republic not an empire.

                I think Ron Paul is nuts, I just dont get it.

                We can’t survive, we can’t compete in the world without a military presence in other countries.

                I don’t mean in terms of empire, but truly, America, at it’s best, is the garlic and the cross that keeps the vampires away.

                It has become corrupt, certainly in light of what this whole Obama/Rezko/Achui situation is highlighting, but that is a small part.

                Fortunately, in this country, and it is huge, there are still men and women who truly honor their service, don’t look for profit, or a need to dictate.

                Good Americans.

                • CK

                  Dr. Paul believes in individuals and allowing each of them to do whatever they can to live a good life as they see it. He is not much on collective identity mongering. He believes that imposing belief is evil, imposing it with a gun is immoral and evil. He doesn’t believe that the rest of the world are bad demons hiding under american beds just waiting to harm us unless they are harmed by us first. You tell me why we need just enough troops in Koreas to guarantee that they will be blown to smithereens within half an hour of a real war there? They are tripwires to guarantee that America will give its usual visceral response to American deaths. Without the American presence, the Koreans would work out a satisfactory modus vivendi among themselves and with their neighbours. With us there, that is impossible. Our heros on the Korean peninsula are there to die to guarantee that american interests trump all other interests. Multiply by a couple of hundred rinse and repeat for Germany, Iraq, etc etc.
                  China is surviving and competing quite well in the rest of the world without a military presence anywhere outside their own borders, likewise Russia, likewise Malaysia, likewise Japan. We could survive quite comforatabley without a military presence anywhere farther from our own shores than Puerto Rico and Havaii. And would have a lot more money to piss away on mandatory health care or some other social service funded by stolen tax monies. Do you think we really need a CIA fucking over Iran, guatemala, Venezuela, nicaragua, Indonesia, Angola or any of the other places our supposed interests led only to war and destruction and dictatorships?
                  Who are the current vampires because for america there must be vampires. Disagree with america you become a vampire, and as kissinger showed so well, being american’s supplicant can also turn you into a vampire when it suits whoever in DC needs a new vampire because the old vamp has lost his fear inspriring mojo.

      • s. hall

        How right you are? While we elect another American Idol even countries like Ireland are eating our lunch. We have lost our influence in the world due to the utter stupidity of this past president and the presumed stupidity of the next one.

        When I spoke to relatives in Great Britain they are amazed that you can lose your home and go bankrupt because of an illness. They have heard this but cannot understand how Americans could allow this to happen. While we threaten with our weapons they take care of their citizens. Ten years from now younger Americans will ask WAS AMERICA REALLY THE MOST POWERFUL NATION ON EARTH?

        • shirin

          s. hall, Americans need to realize that the decline of this country did not begin and will not end with George W. Bush. He seems to have accelerated the rate of decline considerably (mostly, ironically, by trying to use massive brute force to assert American supremacy), but his regime has only been part of a continuum.

          • Mike Howell

            Shirin –

            So you believe that U.S. was in decline before George Bush, and that a Daley machine politician is going to help somehow.

            As the indictments continue to roll through Illinois dream on about the magical powers of Barack Hussein Obama, who solicited slumlord Rezko for his dream mansion while his constituents were freezing…

    • Taters

      Well said ghost2.

  • http://nobloodforhubris.blogspot.com No Blood for Hubris

    I fired off a letter to MSNBC this morning, and it bounced back as “deleted — unread.”

    That’s how interested they are in their viewers’ opinions.

    • norrismorris

      Keep trying. I got two letters through, and we should not let any network think they can behave irresponsibly towards ANYONE without blowback. We must participate if we expect action.

      I used their own websites section to email the network. There’s gotta be a way. If they block mail, I’d complain to NBC as this is an FCC matter.

      We own the public airways and they MUST feel some sense of outrage.

  • http://nobloodforhubris.blogspot.com No Blood for Hubris

    I tried three times. Now I’ll be sending it by snailmail.

  • Titus Pullo

    ‘Pimped out’ is part of the vernacular now, it no longer necessarily to be taken literally and is more of a figure of speech. Here’s another phrase that will soon be entering into the national vernacular: HILLARY LOSES. Your bitterness warms my heart.

    BWAAAAAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAHAAAAAA.

    • TeakWoodKite

      Your bitterness warms my heart.
      And in that bitterness lies your own salvation. Take heed Titus_Pullo your change and hope speaks of it’s revenge.
      We all serve a master and his yoke is relentless.

      Antonius was blockaded on an island and forced to surrender;Pullo was apparently responsible for most of his soldiers switching sides to fight for Pompey.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Pullo

      • Mike Howell

        Nicely done! Obama zombies shrivel and die in the bright light of facts and history!

    • s. hall

      What you say might be more convincing if we would see something about this on the MSM however there are more chances of seeing pigs fly. Lets see we have radical muslim cousin Odinga, Rezko the indicted friend and supporter, Obama’s minister who was linked to Louis Farrikon and now Mr. Auchi. Thats just too much coincidence for me. And where oh where is all that money coming from supporting Obama? If only we had investigative reporters again. Burka anyone?

      • shirin

        LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!! And in addition to supposedly “radical Muslim” “cousin” whom Obama has presumabably never met, we now have a simultaneous link between Obama’s born-again Christian minister and Louis Farakan plus the Chaldean Christian Iraqi Auchi.

        But the burka reference is kind of confusing since all but one of the individuals mentioned are Christians.

        • shirin

          Oh yeah – I forgot to point out that Rezko, too, is a Christian.

          • shirin

            PS Islamaphobic bigoted ignoramus anyone?

            • simon

              What about Auchi’s corruption, Shirin?

          • Mike Howell

            shirin –

            Christians don’t let their tenant freeze.

            • Mike Howell

              Sorry tenants. Christians don’t let their tenants freeze like indicted Rezko did.

              They also don’t solicit mansions when their constituents are freezing like Barack Hussein Obama did.

              Daley machine creeps do.

            • CK

              “Christians don’t let their tenant freeze.”
              That would explain why Hugo Chavez keeps supplying low cost heating oil to us gringos.
              Just another Christian giving alms to the worthy. You know them, the ones who would otherwise freeze because their Christian fuel companies have shut them off.

              • Mike Howell

                CK –

                Do you really believe fuel companies are Christian?

                • CK

                  Mostly run by Christians, managed by christians. Good church going god fearing christians. Until you cannot pay the fuel bill. Mike I believe in cynicism and sarcasm of course I believe that fuel companies are good christian companies, not heathens like Citgo.

              • TeakWoodKite

                Christian fuel companies have shut them off.

                Isn’t religion the ultimate confiscation of critical thinking and reasoned understanding?
                What leap of faith would convince me power cares about alms for the poor?

                • simon

                  Teak wrote:

                  What leap of faith would convince me power cares about alms for the poor?

                  Power that hopes to sustain itself.

                  No one ever said power seekers were bright.

              • Cee

                Christians don’t let their tenant freeze.”
                That would explain why Hugo Chavez keeps supplying low cost heating oil to us gringos.

                ROFL!!! As a repayment for his efforts the US has frozen their assets.

                Courts in the U.S. and Britain have granted requests by ExxonMobil to freeze more than $12 billion in assets of Venezuela’s state oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA).

                • TeakWoodKite

                  $12 billion in assets frozen…So much for that arms deal :)

                  • CK

                    Oh pish tosh, $12 billion for Hugo is chump change. He and the other south american leaders have already moved more than that from american banks into the new south american development bank.
                    The arms deal is still on. He may up the deal size just for the shear gobsmackery of it. Face it anyone who chews coca leaves before breakfast is a smart man who doesn’t need an afternoon nap.

                    • TeakWoodKite

                      Why use a shovel when you can get the John Deer factory for free. Let the serfs keep the cow.

  • ritamary

    None of you need to watch television! You can stop cold turkey! It is true! I have not had the corporate media trash spewed into my home for more than two years, and I am a much happier person for it.

  • Brighid

    Time to call out your buddy Josh Marshall at TPM. This is truly disgraceful:

    After its egregious journalism on this story, TPM NOW compounds it by simply lying. Yes, I am calling TPM liars. Their LATEST headline Says “Clinton Backs Off Firing Demand.” They NEVER demanded it. ONLY TPM said FALSELY they demanded it. Shame on TPM. Shame on Josh Marshall. Disgraceful work.

    http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/9/212257/6702

  • Ann

    I miss the days when you could watch these shows and actually be left guessing who the host supports. Let Carville and Begala appear as guests – and introduce them as Clinton supporters. Let Brazile and Jesse Jackson Jr appear as guests – and introduce them as Obama supporters. No problem. But the actual reporters and hosts need to stay neutral – or retain the appearance of objectivity – the behavior of the MSNBC pundits after the NH results was just ridiculous and completely over the top, and it hasn’t gotten any better since.

    • Mike Howell

      Ann –

      But for Brokaw there would be no professionalism at all. All they do is comment, which is cheaply done, while they fail to investigate, which would cost a few bucks.

      They aren’t pretty like the morons at Fox, so they might as well be on radio with all of the other idiots like Rush.

      WE SHOULD DEMAND MORE! COMPLAIN AND CHANGE THE CHANNEL! I WATCH ABC NOW.

      • Mike Howell

        Sorry –

        I just watched ABC’s This Week and it was terrible.

        They appeared to by vying for MSNBC = Morons Spouting Nonsense “Bout Clintons?

        Donna Barack Hussein Obama Lover and George Pencil D Can’t were silly and the show should have at least called them what they are instead of using misleading labels? How about Obama Zombie and Jealous of Bill Clinton Jerk respectively?

        And whatever happened to investigative work? I know it costs a few bucks, but I can get idiots expressing opinions anywhere.

        What a pathetic effort and a waste of time.

        • shirin

          Mike, I have asked you several times about your obsession with Barack Obama’s middle name. Why is it so significant to you?

          • Mike Howell

            shirin -

            Barack Hussein Obama’s middle name bothers you?

            Why is it just his middle name – Hussein – that bothers you so?

            Why does Barack Hussein Obama’s middle name bother you?

            Does Hillary Rodham Clinton’s middle name bother you?

            If not, why not?

            Do you think that Barack Hussein Obama’s name should not be mentioned or off limits for some reason?

            Why are you so touchy about Barack Hussein Obama?

            Barack Hussein Obama is running for President correct?

            Didn’t you think that maybe his name would come out somehow?

            • shirin

              Mike, no part of Barack Obama’s name bothers me, least of all his middle name Hussein. It is a very nice, and popular Arabic name, as is Barack. In fact, Hussein is one of the more popular Arabic names – much more popular, in fact, than Barack is.

              YOU, on the other hand, seem to think there is some significant information in the fact that Hussein is Barack Obama’s middle name. You hammer away at it as if you are conveying a critical message by reminding people about it.

              So, what is that message you think you are conveying, Mike? What do you think you are telling people by hammering away at Obama’s middle name like that?

              • TeakWoodKite

                Can we go back to calling him Barry please?

                • shirin

                  No way! I HATE when people deny their heritage in that way. His name is Barack, and I’m sorry he ever went to that Barry place.

                  Let’s just not pretend or hint that his name – first, middle, or last – tells us anything about his character, his record, or his abilities. To do so is – wellllll – racist, bigoted, ignorant and, dare I say it, bespeaks a certain level of desperation.

                  If you can’t persuade yourself or others based on real, demonstrable facts, then maybe you need to reconsider your position, or at least admit you are basing it on prejudice of some kind.

                  • shirin

                    PS Teak, don’t take my use of “you” personally. I was using it in the sense of “a person”, not directing it at you personally.

                    • TeakWoodKite

                      I was attempting to point that out.
                      I am attempting to not use ‘you’ or ‘we’ in a sentence…not an easy thing. :)
                      All those folks that past through Ellis Island…

              • Mike Howell

                shirin -

                Why does using Barack Hussein Obama’s middle name bothers you?

                Why is it just his middle name – Hussein – that bothers you so?

                Does Hillary Rodham Clinton’s middle name bother you?

                If not, why not?

                Do you think that Barack Hussein Obama’s name should not be mentioned or off limits for some reason?

                Why are you so touchy about Barack Hussein Obama?

                Barack Hussein Obama is running for President correct?

                Didn’t you think that maybe his name would come out somehow?

                • shirin

                  Mike, no part of Barack Obama’s name bothers me, least of all his middle name Hussein. It is a very nice, and popular Arabic name, as is Barack. In fact, Hussein is one of the more popular Arabic names – much more popular, in fact, than Barack is.

                  YOU, on the other hand, seem to think there is some significant information in the fact that Hussein is Barack Obama’s middle name. You hammer away at it as if you are conveying a critical message by reminding people about it.

                  So, what is that message you think you are conveying, Mike? What do you think you are telling people by hammering away at Obama’s middle name like that?

                • shirin

                  Mike asked (twice, no less):

                  “Didn’t you think that maybe his name would come out somehow?”

                  Interesting question, Mike. Kind of confirms the impression you’ve been conveying over and over again that you give that name some kind of significance. What significance do you see in someone’s having Hussein as their middle name, Mike? Would you be hammering away at Obama’s middle name if it were, say, James? Howard, maybe? Or, perhaps Michael? Something tells me you would not. Something tells me the only reason you keep going on and on with this middle name thing is that you think you are telling people something important. What do you think you are telling people, Mike? And why is it important?

                  And to answer your question, I didn’t think anything at all about his middle name ever. I didn’t wonder what it was before I heard it, and I didn’t find it in any way interesting after I heard it. The only thing I find even remotely interesting about Obama’s middle name is the way a tiny number of people, yourself being one of them, keep bringing it up as if you think it’s some kind of a big deal. Why is it such a big deal to you, Mike?

  • DR

    Sorry Larry, but you appeared numerous times on Matthews’ show as a paid pundit. Yet Matthews was already clear in terms of his opinion of Hillary in particular and women in general. He has ALWAYS been a misogynist idiot, and you HAD to have known that.

    Yet you took MSNBC’s money when it was convenient.

    Now, it’s convenient to piss on them.

    Welcome to politics, Larry. You’ll do well I’m sure.

    • simon

      Sorry Larry, but you appeared numerous times on Matthews’ show as a paid pundit. Yet Matthews was already clear in terms of his opinion of Hillary in particular and women in general. He has ALWAYS been a misogynist idiot, and you HAD to have known that.

      Yet you took MSNBC’s money when it was convenient.

      Now, it’s convenient to piss on them.

      Welcome to politics, Larry. You’ll do well I’m sure.

      You know, some of us here have been doing some reading and researching into the Achui/Rezko/Obama story, and it involves some heavy hitters, the Middle Eastern men who murdered for Saddam, in the manner that makes Dick Cheney quiver.

      Really frightening stuff, yet ex CIA like Larry, and others, go up against those men all the time.

      But no reporters from MSNBC, or Fox, or CNN will touch this story, and it’s there, the implications enormous.

      I don’t have a lot of respect for those afraid to do their jobs, and I’m not speaking for Larry, or anyone else, but your comment is patronizing, and uninformed.

      It’s about more than the money. And really, what the fuck are American politics?

      • DR

        And the relevance of your comment is?

        I don’t know much about the Rezko line, other than to know that pretty much everyone took money from him, including Hillary.

        But I fail to see how that is relevant to the point I was making: that MSNBC and Chris Matthews were fine 6 months ago, but they are now to be banned, EVEN THOUGH THEIR POSITION HAS NOT CHANGED AT ALL. Matthews has ALWAYS been against the Clintons, from the get-go. And his behavior towards women has been vile from day one (Media Matters did quite the job cataloging that behavior).

        The only difference was that 6 months ago, Larry wasn’t stumping for Hillary… So rather than being a respected National Security expert, he’s become just another Hillary supporter. In so doing, it’s his credibility that took the hit, not MSNBC’s. He’s now just a politician…

        I personally have nothing against Hillary. My only concern about her rests in the fact that so many independents are unwilling to vote for her. But it’s quite striking how intense the animus is on the part of Hillary supporters against anyone or anything who dares criticize her. And before you go berzerk, I do feel that the “pimp” comment was out of line; so do most of the people who are not supporting Hillary…

        • Mike Howell

          DR-

          First: Barack Hussein Obama hit Rezko up for a mansion while Rezko was under investigation for kickback schemes for which he is currently indicted. This is the same Rezko who gave Barack Hussein Obama alleged community organizer campaign donations while he was being sued by the city of Chicago for failing to heat his buildings.

          Second: MSNBC has become markedly worse and numerous people watching have noticed – not just Larry, but Emily’s List, NOW and even me, which is why we’ve all complained in the last month to their executives.

          Third: Have you looked at any of the other topics to see if any of them interest you because you may have something relevant to add to one of them?

          • shirin

            Hey Mike, you still haven’t told me what message you think you are sending people by hammering away at Obama’s middle name. In your world, what is the significance of that name? It must have one, or you wouldn’t keep putting it out there.

            • Mike Howell

              shirin –

              There’s Barack Hussein Obama corrupt candidate for President.

              I’d call him Fred Flinstone, but that would be unfair to Fred.

              Because the corrupt candidate’s name is Barack Hussein Obama.

              Not Fred Flinstone or shirin or anything else.

              But Barack Hussein Obama corrupt candidate for President who solicited a mansion from slumlord Rezko while he was under investigation for kickbacks schemes for which he was indicted while Barack Hussein Obama’s constituents were freezing.

              • shirin

                That does not answer the question, Mike, furthermore it is transparently disingenuous. The question is what important message do you think you are conveying by treating Obama’s middle name as if it had some special significance. Surely you are not suggesting that it is his middle name that proves he is corrupt, no one is that silly. Therefore, your insistence upon repeating and repeating and repeating that middle name over and over again in each of your comments can’t really have anything to do with corruption.

                A lot of people here have been talking a lot about Obama’s being corrupt, but you are the only one who insists upon pointing out his middle name multiple times in each comment post. Everyone else just calls him Obama, or Barack, or Barack Obama.

                So, come on, Mike, spit it out. What message are you trying to send to people by continually pointing out Obama’s middle name?

                • Mike Howell

                  shirin –

                  You’ll just have to ask Barack Hussein Obama to change his name if it bothers you so much.

                  • shirin

                    Yet another transparently lame try to duck the question, Mike. You really aren’t very good at this, unfortunately.

                    What is it about the fact that Obama’s middle name is Husein that you find so significant, Mike, that you feel a need to keep hammering away at it? What are you trying to say with this? Come on, out with it. Be honest, will you?

        • simon

          DR said:

          And the relevance of your comment is?

          You were referring to Larry as hypocritically naive, in reference to his knowledge of American politics, and his work for MSNBC.
          You also assumed a position of superior knowledge, ie “welcome to American politics” ie, “I know more than you.”

          I called you on it, stating, by virtue of his work, and training, he was already familiar with the political landscape, and was not hypocritically naive. I thought this was esp. humorous, given you were speaking of MSNBC, and men like Olbermann, and Matthews, hardly bastions of political and moral courage, or sophistication, given their willful ignorance of the Obama-Auchi connection, Hillary bashing, and their refusal to objectively examine this, in part, I think, because they’re afraid of men like Auchi.

          IMO.

          If you need explication, let me know, I’ll break it down for you, further.

  • CK

    All the time? Keifer Sutherland goes up against them all the time. Wesley Snipes, Bruce WIllis yes they go up against them all the time. Jackie Chan and Jet Li and Chow Yun Fat and Jason Statham sure … every day in every sequel they go up against the magic assassins all the time. It’s what we pay them to pretend.
    You are surprised that reporters do not report? You missed the HUGE NATIONWIDE 72 point type headlines concerning Sibel Edmonds and treason by American appointed government officials?
    When the facts do not fit the permissible story line, the facts are not reported. When there are no facts to substantiate the desired story line the facts are manufactured and the stenographers dutifully report them. If the stenographers are not enough a magic negro is sent to the UN to peddle them based on his magicness.
    Cui Bono is WTF american politics are. Them as antes up get a seat at the table sometimes and sometimes they just get fleeced. Larry lent his cred to Tweety … it was a bad loan in hindsight and probably a bad loan in foresight too. Larry has lent his cred to Olberman, the loan is a risky one, probably not as subprime as tweety but that is the best one can say for it at this juncture. When Larry lends his cred to Stewart or Colbert it will be just another subprime loan but in so far not redlined neighbourhood.
    I have noticed that you find Obama less than inspiring. Welcome to a club. I noticed some others here with memories going back to Rickey Ray Rector who find either Clinton to be unappetizing.
    Welcome to another club. I find McCain to be evil and the rest to be repugnant substitutes for each other. For every faux Iraqi connection to Barack there is an equally nasty connection the Clintons would like to not see on the nightly spamfest. For every Achui there is a Giustra and a Nazarbayev.
    By the way, Nadhmi Auchi was vice chair of the Kennedy school of Government at Harvard between 1996 and 2000. Here’s his short bio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadhmi_Auchi
    Seems he had done a lot of good things and been recognized by many of the US allies as a man who does good things. Ms Rice and her sinecure do not however like him so they have made him an undesireable alien which I suspect bothers him just terribly.

    • simon

      All the time?

      Well, yes, who do you think Valerie Plame went up against at B-J, nice men who wouldn’t kill her, or her contacts?

      Why do you think treason now carries the death penalty for outing an agent, and any resultant death that may occur to her contacts? My goodness, remember Robert Hanssen, FBI, and the CIA guy, Aldrich Ames, how many Russian agents, working for America, were murdered for their work, because of those American traitors?

      Word was it some of Plame’s contacts were murdered after her role in B-J was revealed.

      Intelligence agents risk their lives, did you think it was a safe job?

      That is what made Cheney’s cowardly crime all the worse.

      It’s often been my impression it’s the neocons’ who buy into the safety and security of an insipid show like “24,” opposed to those who are horrified by the need for glamorized violence, the torture, the ease by which Jack Bauer murders. In Iraq, they torture with drills to the skull, or up the ass. The ignorant and frightened so need a John Wayne, to make sense of a confusing threatening world. It’s Rush Limbaugh and Dick Cheney’s favorite show.

      I read an article where a general from west point went to Howard Gordon, the producer of “24,” asking him to reevaluate the use of torture on the show, as it was adversely influencing the students at west point.

      Gordon tacitly refused, but managed to patronize the general, anyway. Stand up guys, those neocon Hollywood producers, one big ole fantasy bubble.

      In regard to your comments about Larry and Olbermann, et al, I don’t see it that way, I see it as an emerging situation, constantly needing to be reevaluated with every breath. A + B=C, C-F=?, and so on, it really takes a sustained pattern of stupid before a decision can be made to judge another as naively hypocritical.

      No system is static, it’s important to understand the total dynamic.

      I don’t accord Larry, or others, special status, but certainly, the means by which to discredit him was disingenuous.

      The idea a man who fights terrorism would be unprepared for the rough and tumble of American politics is questionable, just seemed a petty insipid comment.

      I’m very sorry to appear so antagonistic toward you, it isn’t my intent, we seem to have a different philosophy. I respect your POV, even if I don’t agree.

    • Mike Howell

      CK –

      I don’t watch the same T.V. or movies that you do, but before you snuggle up to Auchi maybe you should remember that billionaires buy friends and wikipedia space pretty fast.

      And France seems to think that some of that money was criminally obtained hence his fraud conviction.

      Enron Executives were generous with their ill gotten gains at times too, but I don’t love them no matter what wikipedia says about their charitable giving.

      By the way, when is Barak Hussein Obama going to cough up which charities received his cash from Rezko – now at over $150,000.00 not counting the mansion?

      • CK

        Too true mike
        Everything on these interwebs is for sale, why it is virtually like reallife.
        Now the snuggling remark is a bit our of line, I have no information that leads me to believe that AUchi is a snuggler nor that he has evinced any desire to snuggle with me.
        I cannot answer for the vagaries of the Napoleonic code nor how it is enforced. I believe that in France it is the defendants job to prove his innocence not the prosecution’s job to prove guilt beyond a semblance of doubt. having not yet been labelled a criminal in the eyes of france I have no direct information. ( I do however make a mean escargot du bourgogne but I usually drink it with Greek Retsina not that thin red French plonk).
        As for anything having to do with Senator Obama, direct your questions to him or his surrogates, I have no knowledge of and less interest in him than you can conceivably imagine. In my pantheon of interesting people he comes in about third from last beating only Clintons and McCain but not surpassing my level of disinterest in Huckabee.

        • shirin

          “I have no knowledge of and less interest in [Obama] than you can conceivably imagine.”

          Thanks for putting so succinctly what I have been trying to say. My interest in Obama lasted long enough for me to find out enough real stuff about his performances as an elected official plus his stated positions on key issues to convince me he is not someone I can support. After that, I lost interest virtually completely. I don’t even find him all that great a speaker, but then I have always been more interested in content than in delivery.

      • simon

        From what I’ve read, French ELF is obviously also invested in African oil, through Gen DeGaulle, originally.

        Now, of course, Auchi is a main player in ELF-Aquitaine, does this extend to Kenya, too?

        So many shell companies exist, but it’s all the same players, so they are traceable, others have done excellent work in regard to this issue.

        I was driving down the freeway the other day, and I was noticing a new strip mall every other mile, overlooking the road. And each strip mall has one capital firm, at least, and one new bank, with a creative name like MAC bank, or Indy bank, or Redrum Bank.

        Thousands of them, it seems, springing up all over.

        Simply amazing. Just like Teapot Dome.

        • CK

          Be VERY VERY careful of Redrum Bank. Their withdrawal requirements are murdeR.
          American has a lot to be thankful for concerning Teapot Dome. ( well teapot dome and a few mistresses and way too many nights playing poker in smoke filled rooms and drinking find cognac) It gave the United States its last stellar president. Gads how I miss Calvin Coolidge.

  • CK

    Her job was to make traitors out of other countries citizens. That sort of job usually carries a high price for failure. Hansen and Ames are doing life without parole, it’s the price they paid, the soviet traitors got a shorter sentence but an equally permanent one.
    Being a spy and a recuiter of traitors has never been a safe career. You pays your dime you takes your chances, and then your employer forbids you to make a profit writing about it. It’s just not fair.
    Treason is not the same legally as espionage. Espionage here carries life or some long term incarceration. The last death penalty for treason was 1948.
    Terrorism is a tactic, like mine warfare or psyops or counterfeiting your opponents currency or kidnapping other folks wives and kids and torturing them to get someone to talk. No one fights terrorism; they either use it a lot or not so much or not at all. Turn the dial up to 11, More Cowbell, don’t waterboard with swamp water or unflushed toilet water, be as Washington was during the Revolution. Just a tactic used by all the only difference is the setting on the dial, the dial starts at 0 and goes to 11. Likewise noone is fighting terrorists, or everyone is fighting different terrorists. Ít is mandatory that American’s understand that America never does anything evil or pussillanimous or crooked or slimy; only evil terrorists do those kind of things. Or if they are are current allies they are simply overexuberant in carrying out the wishes of Massa Sam.
    The first poster’s comment did not say Larry would not be able to handle american politics, contrarywise they complimented larry on the ease with which he had already fitted into the prevailing mores and standards of american politics. It was a shot. Yes it is obvious that you and I have a few minor philosophical differences, I have not noticed any antagonism ; but now that you mention it I will be ON MY GUARD AGAINST ANYTHING ANTAGONISTIC for at least the next two, maybe three minutes.

    • simon

      Her job was to make traitors out of other countries citizens. That sort of job usually carries a high price for failure. Hansen and Ames are doing life without parole, it’s the price they paid, the soviet traitors got a shorter sentence but an equally permanent one

      I thought her job was to track those who sold black market nukes, and weapons. The men who kill on a dime. The idea of creating a traitor really goes back to the cold war, this is a different pup, though I’m sure she had contacts.

      The Soviet “traitors” you refer to were helping America during the cold war, and were executed, according to the sources I’ve read, because they were betrayed by Ames, and Hanssen, for money, and for simplistic narcissistic complex, ie, “I’ll show YOU.” Once home, the KGB would take the offender to a back room, and simply shoot them, the floors of the execution chamber grooved to better facilitate the flow of blood.

      Interesting.

      I find that action repulsive, cowardly, pussy, I truly believe government officials who betray intelligence officers should pay with their lives, if so convicted, and I do not normanlly advocate for the death penalty.

      But if you choose to play the game, or engage, you should be aware you are subject to consequence, it’s not a movie, it’s not TV.

      Beside, anyone who doesn’t take the CIA seriously is already a little loopy in the head.

      Treason is not the same legally as espionage. Espionage here carries life or some long term incarceration. The last death penalty for treason was 1948.

      I’m aware of the difference. After Ames conviction, the death penalty was reinstated.

      Terrorism is a tactic, like mine warfare or psyops or counterfeiting your opponents currency or kidnapping other folks wives and kids and torturing them to get someone to talk. No one fights terrorism; they either use it a lot or not so much or not at all. Turn the dial up to 11, More Cowbell, don’t waterboard with swamp water or unflushed toilet water, be as Washington was during the Revolution. Just a tactic used by all the only difference is the setting on the dial, the dial starts at 0 and goes to 11. Likewise noone is fighting terrorists, or everyone is fighting different terrorists.

      This is nonsense.

      Terrorism is a form of (asymmetric) warfare, executed for various reasons.

      Mine warfare, or psy ops would be tactic of asymmetric warfare, or terrorism. All warfare, all aberrant behavior is motivated by passive aggressiveness, once that’s understood, it’s just a matter of identifying the players, and gaming them.

      And terrorism can be linked, I think all the investment Cheney and Bush have put into post 9.11 activities is finally paying off. It would seem Obama has finally paved the way for us to simplistically see how all this is connected, how men like Richard Perle and Doug Feith and Auchi function, it’s all there, the money, the truth.

      You can whistle past the graveyard all you want, but you’re only fooling yourself, it is very real. The better we understand motivation, and thought process, why terrorists make the decisions they do, or criminals, I should say, the better we can fight.

      Asymmetrical warriors tend to be very symmetric in their execution of war.

      Ít is mandatory that American’s understand that America never does anything evil or pussillanimous or crooked or slimy; only evil terrorists do those kind of things. Or if they are are current allies they are simply overexuberant in carrying out the wishes of Massa Sam.

      As I said, Obama is inadvertently shining a light on that roach nest, and I for one am thankful.

      Again, by we, I mean America, Americans.

  • CK

    Simon
    Almost all warfare though the history of mankind has been to steal someone elses wealth, women, pasturage or land. Far from being passive aggressive, war is mostly aggressive aggressive. You got Me take. If you can’t stop me then it is mine; if you can I am dead. Pillage Rape and burn in that order. Couch it however you want it aint passive.
    Asymetric warfare has been a part of mankind’s baggage since the first unequal fight. David used asymetric warfare against Goliath. The next to the last thing that went through Goliath’s mind was that David was a terrorist. Call it guerilla war if you wish, or Karate, or Okinawan weapons style. Call it what the Ghurkas did in Burma, they would lie in the grass and cut japanese achilles tendons, they would sneak into a japanese camp at night and slit every OTHER throat. Call it passing out smallpox laden blankets to the indians. It’s a tactical catchall term for all those things that a smart enemy does to you. Whether it’s sugaring the gas tanks in a german tank park or setting punji sticks in a manhole. If you didn’t plan for it and it made you look like a benighted fool after the fact, then it’s terrorism. If you thought of it and the other guy didn’t, then it’s intelligent application of available forces in a cultrually adjusted profile or some other REMF wordsmithery.
    While you are gaming them, it is good to remember that they are gaming you simultaneously. The rest of this world’s citizens appeart to know a great deal more about american mores and morals and beliefs than american citizens know about the rest of the world. We are easier to game. That’s why we have nukes so that even if we lose the game so does everyone else.
    Traitors existed long before the cold war, and will exist long into the future. No one has officialy defined the parameters of Ms Plame’s job, but if she was using foreign nationals to give her information that their governments did not wish divulged, then her job was to create traitors. Funny thing, turn traitor for money or ideology or out of fear of blackmail you still turned traitor. As long as there exists governments among men based on theft and monopoly use of force, there will be traitors and punsishments meted out to them.
    I will have to agree with you on one specific point, the path to the money is usually the path to someone’s version of the truth.
    “What is truth?” Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him.” Always did believe that Pilate got the sticky end of the anal probe. But he to paid his dime and took his chances for his time holding the brass ring. There are many versions of a thing that are the truth if one just closes one’s eyes and claps his hands, his version can prevail for a while.

    • Mr.Murder

      That’s why decentralization of the governments we deal with at the midway point is so important.

      People will turn for a variety of motivations. The human element prevents any security model from being 100% perfect.

      A decentralized mode means one person can be less crucial if they turn. in a centralized mode, one person turned could bring down entire chapters of counterintelligence.

      Decentralized, a person turned is what it is, and doesn’t have access to nearly the same amount of data and people. That means other programs aimed the same direction and used to shape outcomes go on to fruition and are not compromised.

      • CK

        Personally I find little incentive to deal with governments. If I have to deal with them I prefer them to be inept, inefficient, and rules bound. But then we do know that throughout history, people have turned on their families, their friends, their neighbours, their religions, their cultures, their clans septs and tribes.
        Sometimes people even turn on themselves.
        Now as long as there are “…other programs aimed the same direction and used to shape outcomes…”
        then there must exist a centralizing and or co-ordinating function. If turning a Hansen or an Ames is not sufficicent, we look upwards two or three levels and turn there. Eventually we look to turn the Gorbachev, the Palme, the personal private secretary to Willy Brandt, the best friend of J. J. Angleton.
        I have always admired how skillfully the CIA keeps it traps shut about its greatest successes.
        Gorbie the plant has always been my fave success that no one ever mentions.

  • ybnormal

    Comment by Mike Howell | 2008-02-10 20:09:08
    shirin –
    You’ll just have to ask Barack Hussein Obama to change his name if it bothers you so much.

    Mike, first you emphasize Obama’s middle name by repeatedly spelling it out exclusively, thereby implying some kind of meaning with a verbal version of a big wink; then when Shirin legitimately calls you on it, you give a straw man reply that it’s Shirin who’s bothered because she noticed.

    You’re really digging yourself in a hole. You’d do better to just concede the mistake and move on.

    Note that Hussein is a fairly common name; something like Howell is in english. You’re making yourself sound foolish to people who already know this. Ask yorself, how would you comment if Obama’s middle name was Howell.

    • Mike Howell

      ybnormal –

      Wow! You and shurin really get bugged by Barack Hussein Obama’s middle name. Why?

      Does Hillary Rodham Clinton’s middle name bother you as much?

      • ybnormal

        An incorrect assumption resulting in an illogical question. If what I pointed out was not clear, then I guess we just have to agree to mis-communicate.

        For the record – Obama having the middle name Hussein does not bother me at all, just as any other common ancestral name passed on to another generation does not bother me at all. The practice is common in my own family.

        And also just as Senator Clinton’s middle name does not bother me at all. By the way, I notice that you don’t emphasize Senator Clinton’s or anyone else’s middle name by spelling it out, while not doing so for the names of others. Do you know what Senator Clinton’s middle name is?

        You’re baiting, and you know it. ’nuff said

        • shirin

          Oooooo! Oooooooo! Oooooooooo! (Raising hand and jabbing the air with it) I know what Hillary Clinton’s middle name is! I’m not gonna tell, but it has to do with hunting.

          By the way, in the Arab world people do not have middle names exactly. You have the name given to you at birth, of course, and your second name will be the given name of your father. Thus both men and women in the Arab world have a masculine “middle name” – confusing to westerners, yet completely normal to Arabs. After that, you might have your grandfather’s given name (which might be followed by a few more generations’ worth of names), or the name of your tribe, or if you have no tribal affiliation, as many Iraqis do not, some other name that is considered your family name as a result of some profession, or location, or trade, or prominent ancestor, or some quality that one of your ancestors was believed to embody.

          There is a family in Lebanon with the name Al Amerki (The American). They got that name because 80-100 years or so ago a young man went to America and was gone for years and years, and when he returned to Lebanon everyone referred to him as Al Amerki, or The American. Over time he became known as Khalid (or whatever his given name really was) Al Amerki, and his kids became, for example, Hani Khalid Al Ameriki, Layla Khalid Al Amerki, etc. There might be other Al Amerki families in the Arab world (in Iraq it would be called Al Amreeki), but that is the only one I know about.

          And by the way, the western practice of a woman taking her husband’s family name when she marries is very weird to Arabs. Why would she want to deny her own family heritage when she gets married, and stop being who she is? She does not abandon her family, and they do not abandon her when she marries – sometimes to the chagrin of her husband (most things are universally human, despite the attempts by Americans to make Iraqis into some incomprehensibly exotic “other” with a radically different culture and way of viewing themselves and the world).

          From what I understand, in Kenya people do not traditionally have middle names or last names either, so my guess is that Hussein is the name of Barack’s father, and Obama is the name of his grandfather – just a guess, of course, and I could be completely off base, though that’s how it works in the Arabs world.

      • shirin

        How very tediously disingenuous and dishonest you are, Mike Howell!

        What message do you think you are conveying by hammering at Obama’s middle name?

        And by the way, as I have already pointed out, his first name is very Arabic – just as Arabic as his middle name is, and in fact, unlike his middle name, his first name has a clearly religious meaning. His first name means blessed.

  • Mr.Murder

    Face it, Republicans will spell Barack’s name on as many ballots as possible.

    You might as well come up with better replies to its use than has been done here.

    I’d suggest the comparison of King Hussein, a staunch western ally and a key to normalization efforts.

    • CK

      I recommend that Senator Obama change the spelling of his first name to Baruch. Which means blessed in another language.
      A simple step no?
      Dogwhistle politics: Get your vertical relationships in order. barack HUSSEIN obama. PIMP clinton LEWINSKY. lead paint children’s toys mattel’s CHINESE factories.
      Did you know that John McCain’s middle name was KEATING? John KEATING McCain. ( so maybe it isn’t, but there is a certain truthiness to it even if it is not demonstrably true in this specific universe ) Roll that one around the tongue for a while, savour the flavour the tawdry excrescense of it. Ah the memories and wait for it — the whole tasty tie in to NEIL BUSH.
      Reminds me of how much we all enjoyed: Ma Ma where’s my pa? Gone to the whitehouse, ha ha ha.
      ( THose of you who for whatever foolish reason were not able to enjoy the elections of Grover Cleveland may have missed the simple pleasures of early dogwhistle politics.)

      • Shirin

        “I recommend that Senator Obama change the spelling of his first name to Baruch. Which means blessed in another language.”

        But that would just open up another huge can of worms for him.

        • CK

          @ Shirin:
          You must have missed the Ha’areetz article that listed the US presidential candidates on the only important standard: “Is this candidate’s election good for Isreal.” Poor Baruch Hussein Obama came in next to last. Last was Dr. Paul who is the candidate who could not be named.
          Even after Obama tried soooooooo very hard to pimp himself more outrageously than Hillary Rodham Clinton did to AIPAC, he could do no better than last among the significant candidates.
          So really changing the spelling of his first name is all good, he has no downside on that one. “You can calls me Barrie or Baruch or OMan or Slick or Halfsies but ya doesn’t have to call me Mr.” ( Old old OLD tv skit, seriously old, older than the sand that lies under the water that flows through the rivers of Babylon.)

          • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

            Well, guess what? That skit’s not funny. Not if you’re black, not if you’re Jewish, not if you were born with a functioning brain. It’s offensive. All you do is give Obama supporters justification for crying “racism”.

            I think it’s time for me to take a hiatus from this place. I don’t who let the creeps in but the air has started to really stink.

          • Shirin

            I saw the Haaretz article (used to read Haaretz daily, and still look at it when I have time). I don’t think Kucinich was even in there, was he? He is pretty close to the only member of Congress who is completely honest about Israel. I’m surprised AIPAC lets him keep his seat.

            • CK

              So check out the funding for the sudden influx of Rahm Emmanuel supported contenders for his seat.
              Funny how when someone challenged Joe Lieberman it was a sin against party loyalty, but not a word from the party when Kucinich suddenly grows a passel of well funded “dems.”

    • Shirin

      Ah yes, good old King Hussein – another quisling despot who provided, among other things. a good destination for extraordinary rendition subjects.

    • Shirin

      I’m sorry, but if the Republicans are so lame, and the voters in this country so shallow and foolish that someone having a middle name of Hussein is a significant electoral issue, then I really can understand how George Bush got to be President not once, but twice. And I really don’t have much hope for the future political health of this country.

      • CK

        No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public.

        • Shirin

          I thought it was intelligence, not taste.

  • CK

    Ah the deficiencies of aging gracelessly. Mencken’s quote really was as you state.
    So let me instead offer three relevant quotes from one of America’s most sage business men:
    “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
    “Every crowd has a silver lining.”
    “Without promotion something terrible happens … nothing.”

  • faith

    Finally! Finally, a journalist had the courage to state what others are afraid to say. The so-called uneducated low-income clinton voters complain about this on the blogs. CNN and MSNBC have been implying that we are uneducated and therefore IGNORANT about the issues. Clinton supporters find this very offensive. The pro-Obama bias is reprehensible. I have never seen such biased coverage for a candidate by MSM. I could no longer stomach MSNBC and CNN that I have resorted to watching Fox News to get somewhat balanced coverage on the presidential campaign.

  • faith

    Shirin,

    Just read your posting in response to Obama’s cousin and opposition leader, Odinga. Obama is reported to have had meetings with Odinga. As you know Odinga called for protests, which lead to chaos and violence. Don’t you find it peculiar that the unrest in Kenya followed after Obama’s meeting with Odinga?

    • http://www.despair.com/sacrifice1.html Smilin’ Jim

      “Don’t you find it peculiar that the unrest in Kenya followed after Obama’s meeting with Odinga?”

      Psssst……. that’s the mothershp on your beeper.

      This shitstorm started in October of 2007 when Kibaki torpedoed the parliment after hijacking the election. The call you mention occurred in early January. It is equally as likely that the January 6 earthquake in Greece caused it.

      It’s all on this very blog for anyone without a UFO complex to understand.

      It is, however, with unabashed Shadenfreunde that I observe Obama, the candidate pledged to “end partisanship”, hitting the brick wall with his own kin.

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