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The Obama Cult

Hate Springs Eternal, by Paul Krugman, February 11, 2008:

Most of the venom is coming from supporters of Barack Obama, who want their hero or nobody. His campaign seems dangerously close to becoming a cult of personality.

For supposedly not being enchanted by the allures of evangalists, a lot of Democrats are just as susceptible as their Republican counterparts. Practical, no-nonsense talk about the realities of politics (see Krugman’s example of Nixon in the column linked above) is greeted with, “Oh, you’re preaching the old politics, the cynical politics.” When the supporters of the more qualified candidate make their case, the “born-again” Democrats have an answer, no matter how nonsensical, for everything.

  • In 2004, I was repeatedly told that we had — simply HAD TO — nominate John Kerry because he was the “electable” candidate. (Uh, where in the name of god did that “meme” get started? Perhaps, just perhaps, in the media, fed by the Kerry campaign?)

  • In 2008, we’re repeatedly told that we must nominate the least-experienced, least-qualified, more-conservative candidate because, we’re told in rapturous tones, “HE IS THE ONE.” The vast majority of Obama’s followers know little of the nitty-gritty of his policies, have ever read the seminal Harper’s 2006 article, on Obama’s world of financial and lobbyist influence, on his well-braided relationship with Tony Rezko, who goes on trial Feb. 25 before Patrick Fitzgerald.

Here’s more from Krugman today:

The bitterness of the fight for the Democratic nomination is, on the face of it, bizarre. Both candidates still standing are smart and appealing. Both have progressive agendas (although I believe that Hillary Clinton is more serious about achieving universal health care, and that Barack Obama has staked out positions that will undermine his own efforts). Both have broad support among the party’s grass roots and are favorably viewed by Democratic voters.

Supporters of each candidate should have no trouble rallying behind the other if he or she gets the nod.

Why, then, is there so much venom out there?

I won’t try for fake evenhandedness here: most of the venom I see is coming from supporters of Mr. Obama, who want their hero or nobody. I’m not the first to point out that the Obama campaign seems dangerously close to becoming a cult of personality. We’ve already had that from the Bush administration — remember Operation Flight Suit? We really don’t want to go there again.

What’s particularly saddening is the way many Obama supporters seem happy with the application of “Clinton rules” — the term a number of observers use for the way pundits and some news organizations treat any action or statement by the Clintons, no matter how innocuous, as proof of evil intent.

The prime example of Clinton rules in the 1990s was the way the press covered Whitewater. A small, failed land deal became the basis of a multiyear, multimillion-dollar investigation, which never found any evidence of wrongdoing on the Clintons’ part, yet the “scandal” became a symbol of the Clinton administration’s alleged corruption.

During the current campaign, Mrs. Clinton’s entirely reasonable remark that it took L.B.J.’s political courage and skills to bring Martin Luther King Jr.’s dream to fruition was cast as some kind of outrageous denigration of Dr. King.

For a real DOSE of reality, try to get the Obama followers to begin by reading this — they won’t be receptive, but perhaps (BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE) some of them may begin to catch on:

Barack Obama Inc.:
The birth of a Washington machine

Harper’s magazine
The best introduction you’ll get to what he’s really about — at least until the Feb. 25th trial of tony Rezko since Obama is an unnamed contribution recipient in probably more than one place in the indictment.

WHAT I MOST WORRY ABOUT:

1) The electorate will begin to wake up after it’s too late to repair whatever unfair, undemocratic “solution” the DNC comes up with; or

2) They most assuredly will find out — which they’ll greet with everlasting buyer’s remorse or the most absurd rationalizations — when he’s sitting in the Oval, beseiged from all sides — and I do mean all sides. What does he know of the fiefdoms in Congress protected by both Republican and Democratic powerful? What does he know of the enormous sway of the corporate lobbies, so vast and pervasive that they now write all of our legislation and influence national policy more than voters do?

Does he really think he can begin to penetrate that by getting everybody together? HELL NO! You begin to fight that kind of entrenched power by FIGHTING FOR EVERY INCH OF IT. And that is a job ONLY a pro, who’s been through the ropes in D.C. and seen EVERY GAME THEY’LL PULL can handle.

  • mudkitty

    Look it’s going to be one or the other, and possibly both. Enough with the circular firing squad.

  • http://www.polinomicsagenda.blogspot.com Chris M.

    Does he really think he can begin to penetrate that by getting everybody together? HELL NO! You begin to fight that kind of entrenched power by FIGHTING FOR EVERY INCH OF IT. And that is a job ONLY a pro, who’s been through the ropes in D.C. and seen EVERY GAME THEY’LL PULL can handle.

    You really think that you can get anything healthcare package through the Senate that isn’t bipartisan? I believe that the top down approach has been tried before and the effort set us back 15 years.

    And yes, the Harper’s article does have lots of innuendo, but Obama speaks pretty openly about the influence of donor’s in “Audacity.” He’s not perfect by any means, but let’s not pretend that all his followers are deluded.

  • LuigiDaMan

    If it’s candidate Obama, then it’s President McCain. It’s really that simple. The Repugs simply are beside themselves waiting for the Dems to commit Obama-cide.

  • Bob

    While I prefer Barack Obama, I think that Hilary Clinton would also be a very good President. One of my concerns about Hilary is that there are a tremendous number of people that for whatever reason are in the anti-Clinton camp and would go after her as Ken Starr & crew did back during Bill Clinton’s administration. This would make her much less effective than she could be.

    I also think that David Schuster was WAY out of line with his comments about Chelsea Clinton.

    At the end of the day, we need some rational leadership at the White House and either Barack Obama or Hilary Clinton would be an incredible improvement. It would be great if they could include each other as part of the new administration.

    Looking forward to January 2009!

  • TeakWoodKite

    Mudkitty, what would you suggest? Waiting for the Convention? That is not shaping up to being positive outcome for anyone.

  • Edith

    Wait until it comes out that Obama was instrumental in outting Valerie Plame with his Rethug bosom buddy Lieberman. Of course, the wingnuts will cheer him on for this! Maybe that was his longterm plan in the first place, backed by Bill Kristol and his neocon keepers!!!

  • Hope

    How many times are you going to say “firing squad”. If you don’t like what is said here then perhaps you should go elsewhere Mudkitty where the facts are lined with soft delusions.

  • BernieO

    There is good reason to believe that the Republicans are waiting to see if Obama gets the nomination to pull out the stops on Obama’s relationship with Rezko. There is more to the Rezko mess than there was to Whitewater, yet the Republicans managed to turn a real estate venture in which the Clintons lost their money into a major scandal. Obama actually got a very favorable deal on a house which Rezko helped him buy. Obama solicited Rezko’s help knowing he was under investigation. Pointing out Obama’s vulnerability is not forming a circular firing squad, it is an attempt to keep the Democratic party from committing suicide.

  • Kathleen

    Susan sorry to hear about your health episode. I have been in lock down with my step father( WWII vet, Teamster) in the medicare, private health insurance maze. My first time in this maze, what a fucking nightmare for our seniors. So sad, learning lots (taking notes).

    I have been deeply concerned by the responses of literally hundreds of Obama supporters that I have talked with(well not really talk more like robots responding). I am serious when I say that every Obama supporter responds with the same mantra “hope and change”…”hope and change”. Reminds me of the 2004 Bush supporters in south eastern Ohio who would say “Kerry is going to take our guns away” after Charton “Moses” Heston came through these parts spewing lies. The “Guns, God, and Gays” feamongering tactics.

    I wish folks would actually respond based on some facts about Obama!

    It really got to me when the MSM hammered Bill Clinton after he told the truth about the race card being played in South Carolina just befor the primary.

    The OBamarama machine has tapped into the collective zombie gene in humans. The Obama zombie mantra “hope and change” “hope and change” Oy vey!

    ed into the collective zombie gene in humans

  • Kathleen

    Now that sounds like a stretch

  • BernieO

    Why would you think that the same attack machine would not go after Obama. They went after both Gore and Kerry. The vile Swiftboaters were financed by power players in the party. The reason the attacks on the Clintons are so strong is that, inlike either Gore or Kerry, they could not be defeated by the slime machine. It is incredibly naive to think that Obama won’t have Rezko hung around his neck like a flaming tire. He is not immune to these tactics just because he tries to be bipartisan.

  • BernieO

    I have never seen anything to indicate he had anything to do with the Plame outing.

  • ritamary

    I was listening to Air Obama (aka Air America)this morning. I listened to all of the Thom Hartman show and started listening to Randi Rhodes.

    Not one word was mentioned on Thom Hartman’s show about the MSNBC suspension of David Schuster for his “Hillary is pimping out Chelsea” comment or any media bias against Hillary. One female caller complained about the misogynistic turn so many Obamabots have taken in their rhetoric. That was it for any negative word about Obama’s campaign.

    The only Air America host who allows an even-handed discussion of the two candidates is Lionel. I stopped listening to Jon Elliot after he endorsed Obama several days ago. At least Jon Elliot had enough integrity to make it clear where he is coming from.

    Had to turn off Randi. She has become the mouthpiece for the Obamazoids, though she hasn’t officially endorsed him. Looks like the Democratic Party is getting ready to take a long jump off a short pier (again).

  • Cee

    Obama outted Plame? LOLOLOLOLOLOL!

    Did he sleep with Marilyn Monroe too?

  • BlueInTexas

    Lieberman-Kyle ammendment and the original authorizations for President Bush to go to war in Iraq. Mistakes back then, and mistakes now on Sen Clinton’s record.

    I’m a bit like those that say “I didn’t cross the border, the border crossed me.” My support for Clinton was hers for the asking, until she felt that she had to prove she was tough, and handed a ticket to GW to start another war.

  • apishapa

    If you have listened to Ron Paul supporters, Obama-ites are their democratic counterparts. Tehy seem to be just fanatical.

    The reason I caucused for Hillary is because Edwards was gone. Hillary at least has some link to reality. This kumbaya of Obama platform just drives me nuts. “We all are one!” “We can work it out together”
    Screw that. Bipartisanship is what has gotten into the mess we are in.

    I want a real Democrat. Not one who threatens not to support the candidate unless it is him. I thought we kicked Joe Lieberman to the curb for that shit already.

    As far as I can tell states where Republicans and “Independents” are allowed to vote in the Democratic primary is where Obama is winning most of his votes. If the last eight years hasn’t made you a Democrat yet, you are too stupid to choose me party’s candidate. Republicans are the enemy.

  • Fred C. Dobbs

    >>> Looks like the Democratic Party is getting ready to take a long jump off a short pier (again).

    Yep. The old, “Democratic Will to Fail,” like shingles, seems to erupt at the oddest moments.

    And I say that as someone who knocked on doors for both McGovern and Jimmy Carter.

  • TeakWoodKite

    And she sang Happy Birthday to him?
    Speculations abound.Obama needs to pay a heck of a lot more dues before he get’s anywhere near that wagon train.
    OT: Dodd is on the Senate floor re: FISA…strike title II, no way he says. Go Dodd

  • Kathleen

    that’s where Hillary lost me. Draw the line for these warmongers!

  • Kathleen

    Big Fisa discussion over at Firedoglake (Empty wheels site)http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2008/02/11/fisa-liveblog-and-trash-talk-thread-monday-21108/

    Fisa hearing over at C-span’s site

  • Kathleen
  • Kathleen

    Call in and tell her what you think. Randi listens. I all ready hammered the owner of Air America when his program 7 days in America completely ignored John Edwards after his second place win in Iowa.

    Let them know what you think

  • TeakWoodKite

    Air America; once a CIA air transport company now a radio enterprise of a progressive vain. No cummunication structure is granted immunity until the infection is complete.

  • ken

    I liked Obama a lot when I first read his autobiagraphical account of his early years and heard some of his speeches.

    Now I can’t stand him. He resorts to the easy lie to avoid accountability. He demeans liberals and embraces conservative talking points. It has gotten so bad that I cannot stand to listen to him any more.

    I dislike Obama about as much as I dislike GWBush.

    And after enduring eight years of a president I intensly dislike I will not vote for Obama and have to endure four years of a different man I intensly dislike in the White House.

    If it’s Obama, I vote for McCain.

  • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

    Ohmigod. This is really beyond ridiculous.

    Edith – when you decide to come back to Planet Earth and post some actual facts, let us know.

  • TeakWoodKite

    take a long jump off a short pier;
    Preztel Logic applies how?

    Republicans are the enemy.
    This is not a wise approach. Those you speak of are like tribbles.

    their only two purposes in life appear to be to eat and to reproduce

    there were no predators or natural enemies to keep them in control

    (Wiki)

    Republicans are divided along social and ideological lines in much the same way the Dems are. The enemy is poverty, ingorance and apathy and run rampant thru out both parties.

    “Can’t You hear me Knocking….When your fast asleep?”

  • TeakWoodKite

    Ken Respectfully:
    If it’s Obama, I vote for McCain; and what of the Supreme Court? That’s where I get stuck.

  • Shirin

    The Supreme Court is a concern, but McCain is also really, really, really scary on foreign policy!

    Well, at least he would not allow torture to be part of his Endless Wars.

  • CK

    @ TWK
    Somewhere inside you there is a deep well of cynicism. The good thing about this world is that your account at the Bank of Cynicism can never be overdrawn, not even by the vain progressives.

  • ken

    Teakwoodkite,

    I really loathe GWBush and have for eight years. I have discovered, much to my surpise, that I dislike Obama just about as much as I dislike Bush. I really don’t want to live with that for another four years.

    So, yeah, as far as I am concerned McCain gets to pick the Supreme Court Justices. I would rather Hillary Clinton got that chance but I can live with McCain having it.

    I just cannot fathom myself enduring another four more years of more Obama.

    Outside of my social circle I don’t expect a lot of liberals would necessarily agree with me on that. But I am pretty vocal with my friends and family so I might be able to sway a few my way even if it just for the sake of them saving my sanity.

    We’ll see. Hope it doesn’t come to that though.

  • alexei

    Won’t matter anyway, Obama would be blown away in the GE. McCain is well liked in California and NY and could take those and Obama will at the minimum have to run hard in those two states – so,he won’t be able to o much in the Swing States. Plus Florida and Michigan (to a lesser degree) will already be predisposed not to vote for Obama because of his not seating of the delegates stance. Latinas and Latinos like McCain and don’t trust Obama, so there goes other states with big Latina influence. And all those red states Obama has won – won’t happen in the GE.

    And of course, the real slime machine will be placed in motion – and that is the absolute end – say hi to President McCain.

    That said, of course, I won’t vote for McCrazy – little help that will bring.

  • CK

    If you believe that McCain would not allow torture in his 100, 1,000, 10,000 year war, I have some property with a really nice teaser rate ARM available for sale that you can believe in also.
    Notice: Today McCain received the endorsement of the anti-abortion crowd. Now McCain is not the solidest anti-abortionist running for the repub nomination by a country gyncecologist’s mile so why did he get the endorsement of this arm of the republican party? Because WAR is a good investment, and abortion reduces the number of soldiers available. Abortion is indeed giving aid and comfort to the enemy….it is TREASON against the USA in a time of war. War is a good investment, invest your children.
    Off on a tangent here: I watched 24 twice and aftwards felt unclean for having done so. Now I see that the civilian equivalent of 24 is coming to CBS. Yes for your entertainment DEXTER the serial killer who works for your local police department is coming to the Network screen for your entertainment and diversion. Dexter who does for the local cops what Keifer Sutherland does for the DHS. This is your america, this is the hopes and dreams of the networks who are giving you Obama vs McCain. Which of those two names links better with the fantasy psychosis on display? A half white nube or a HEROIC bomber of women and children? A brave man when it comes to telling lesbian jokes about children. And wasn’t it Bill who told us how civil this election will be because Hillary and John McCain respect and admire each other so much?

  • simon

    Don’t you care about the implications of Auchi’s connection to the terrorist financial market?

    Considering the attacks on NY, and I even wonder about the OK City bombing, now, I’d want to know.

    It could be your family next, and, if you had a chance to really fight terrorism, you would, right?

    Like the troops?

    In Iraq?

    Fighting them over here, so they don’t have to fight them over there?

    They do need a rest.

  • simon

    but Obama speaks pretty openly about the influence of donor’s in “Audacity.” He’s not perfect by any means, but let’s not pretend that all his followers are deluded.

    Well, let’s hope the all the truth comes out through the Rezko trial.

    I’m sure the FBI already knows, though.

  • simon

    It’s as if someone is gaming the democratic mind like they did with the republican mind, for Bush.

    Well, I would say a democratic candidate, as opposed to a republican one.

    Both their positions are virtually the same, so I’m not sure what the greater point is, other than to elect someone who purposely can’t govern.

  • Ken Hoop

    Anybody notice on “60 Minutes” Obama asserted no time like the present, what with modest surge results stemming violence, but no reconciliation,
    to put the Iraqis on notice with timetables?(they won’t reconcile without ultimatum, you see) but when pushed by the interviewer, what if increased instability ensues by or at the time of the timetable date, Obama retreated, affirming he reserved the right to reassess removal of US troopsat that time.

    My reaction? Vote Nader! OUT NOW, No ifs ands or
    demurrals.

  • simon

    Obama is connected to Auchi,(direct donation in 2005, at the very least) who was Saadam’s right hand money “helper” and obtainer of illegal weapons.

    Some think Obama’s vote was, um, motivated by Rezko, and Auchi, as opposed to,um, courage, or vision.

    Is that a possibility?

    What, or who else, influences Obama’s vote?

  • Sometime-CIA-Defender

    It is frightening in a way. A friend (Obama supporter) I spoke to last night spoke very much like a cultist. I am not exaggerating and this person is usually quite logical. However, he is young. I wasn’t as involved in politics in ’92 as I am now, but what Obama is saying is incredibly similar to what Bill said.

    For example, my friend stated that Hillary only started using the word ‘Change’ after it was working well for Obama. Anyone remember “Hope is Back!” That was Bill’s campaign slogan. Build a bridge to the future? Kriminy, I hope Obama is not naive enough to think he can succeed where Bill failed, by reaching across the aisle.

    Reaching across the aisle is actually stepping toward your opponents while playing tug-o-war. What happens? You opponents step backward. That’s what happened to Clinton and that’s what will happen to Obama if he is sincerely thinking he can just buddy-up to the neocons and their libertarian supporters (i.e., the traitors).

    However, there are a number of people who do not think Obama is naive at all, and that he will do essentially the same thing that Clinton will do. It’d be a smart move for the first potential African-American president to appear harmless going in.

    But all this cult stuff proves is we need to heal the rift or accept a McCain presidency. They aren’t going to change between now and June or November.

    And, Simon, don’t you think the Clintons know someone in that circle of a-holes who betrayed America? Doesn’t mean they were complicit.

  • simon

    If you think Obama would prohibit torture, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.

    In addition, I have no confidence Obama would support a non ideological SC justice, if his vote is for sale, he will appoint who is told to appoint.

    Who really advises him?

    Auchi, thorough Rezko, other men like Auchi?

    Those “present” votes on abortion, should be a red flag.

    People are deluding themselves, wow.

    And what?

    You think the President gives an order to cease torture, and men who torture just obey?

    That’s silly.

    Obama much of a male warrior?

    Seems kind of effeminate to me, with all due respect, they will simply IGNORE him.

    I know I would.

    Clinton shows balls, they would probably her ordeer, too but she would go after them, those military hard asses, say, I think that is why some who HATED her 10 years ago now support her, she has EARNED their respect.

    But Obama, oh boy.

    Why?

    Because that’s what military hard asses do…

  • TeakWoodKite

    Yea… your right; I should transfer my accounts. If I could do it without typo’s and a better interest rate I would. :)

    I like listening to all the line up at Air America. Sam is a thoughtful DJ with great guests. Big Ed (Jones Radio) has a big ego but I enjoy hearing from his guests as well. He is still pissed off that only two? candidates took him up on his three hours of free air time.
    Tom Hartman is smart but condesending at times.

    Even a slight breeze is better than none me being a kite and all. I will straighten up and fly right.

  • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

    It won’t come to that if people would quit acting out their extremist phobias.

    Anyone who thinks McCain would be better than either or Obama or Clinton is someone who is NOT thinking clearly.

    Immature extremists who threaten to saddle us with more torture, more war, more illegal spying and more economic disaster just because their preference doesn’t get the nomination should go form their own party and leave good Democrats the hell alone.

    I have NO RESPECT for anyone who continues to ply this crap. NONE.

    I am so sick of hearing this crap from the extremists!

  • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

    Yeah, right. Vote Nader. That will solve everything.

  • simon

    And, Simon, don’t you think the Clintons know someone in that circle of a-holes who betrayed America? Doesn’t mean they were complicit.

    Yes, I do, and I would love to really examine their relationship to the whole gravy train, too.

    What frightens me most about Obama, though, is his DIRECT link to Achui, and Rezko, almost as if they GROOMED him for the Presidency. This from a man with ties to the main financial terrorist network.

    There is no denying that about Auchi.

    In addition, Bill, at the very least, was always very consistent about his democratic positions, whereas Obama lies, he’s a republican, really, he’ll do the bidding of his masters, just like he’s done as a Senator.

    Bill was never, is not, a coward, Obama is.

  • http://www.evergreenpolitics.com shoephone

    Seems kind of effeminate to me, with all due respect, they will simply IGNORE him.

    You are stinking up this place.

  • Shirin

    Hillary lost me when she supported her husband’s policy of regime change by population strangulation and destruction of the new generation in Iraq. As someone who is supposedly devoted to children, she certainly took the deaths by starvation and deprivation of clean water and medicine of half a million children under five years with great aplomb (and that was ONLY the children under five years, it did not count the rest of the needless child suffering and death).

    She lost me further when she supported Bill’s lovely little bombing campaign, charmingly named Operation Desert Fox, in which millions of Iraqi children were terrorized for days, and an unknown number maimed and killed.

    She continued to lose me by being one of the strongest and most consistent Democratic supporters of the invasion and continued occupation of Iraq.

    Her ongoing support of Israel’s genocidal siege in Gaza, which like all such crimes affects children and women disproportionately, and its 2006 33 days of terror, death, and and destruction against the civilian population of Lebanon, were merely icing on the cake.

    And her Kyle-Lieberman vote was the sugar roses on the icing on the cake.

  • TeakWoodKite

    much to my surpise,
    Imagine the surprise on 1-21-09, when Obama “gets it right on the first day”…and wrong there after…My support for Mrs Clinton is based, in part, on her knowledge of where the bodies are buried. Obama has no knowledge of this and what he does know, is only what Dick Morris told him, the stuff of legends.

    As for the Supreme Court has any sitting president ever argued a case before them?
    His education at Harvard should be helpful in choosing a nominee. Given his ability in horse trading I won’t hold my breath, but I KNOW “here’s Johnny” would choose a real beauty, this is the only reason he got Gary Bauer’s endorsement; on a promise to let the freaky right make that choice.

  • CK

    Given my expectations for the economy, I am seriously thinking of starting a bank. Not federally insured by any means. A truly free bank. Depositors would not have to give me ANY information, just create their own # which would be used to access their accounts.
    Safe deposit boxes with only 1 key. I am thinking of naming it The Last Local Bank of Cynics. It would offer Gold clauses for all deposits, unfettered 24/7/366 access and tellers who only understood braille. The blind tellers union local 1. It would have no phone lines, no wireless, no FIOS, nada.

    No questions asked, don’t ask don’t offer.
    Curmudgeonly management too. All unwed orphans, with no hostages to fate or the government. And the bank would not accept fiat currency for deposit in savings accounts. Only real wealth accepted for savings, trash money for immediate spending; on which trash my bank will pay no interest.
    Can I interest you in opening an account?
    ( We will accept pallets of endangered species of wood as a real asset for deposit; teak, cocobolo, rosewood, cuban mahogany, rhodesian copalwood, american black walnut all accepted for savings deposits.)

  • Mike Howell

    BlueinTexas –

    Your former Governor lied and said there were WMDs. That piece of shit Colin Powell lied and pushed for war too.

    The Clintons didn’t drag us into this crap on their watch. Where do you get off blaming the war on her?

  • Shirin

    What vote are you referring to, Simon?

  • Rob G. in Chicago

    and did you look past this to vote for Kerry in 2004 ?

  • CK

    @Simon
    In another thread, I engaged with you on several topics. I find I have no willingness to engage with you further. I am being as polite as is within my capacity to be.
    There being no way to prevent you from commenting on things I say, and being as I would not try to prevent you from commenting even if it were in my capabilies to do so.
    I do wish you to understand that there will be no more give and take from me after this post.

  • Mike Howell

    Barack Hussein Obama is a Daley machine creep. His wife is more manly than him – he’s Urkle with bigger ears.

  • Shirin

    I don’t know about Kathleen, but I didn’t. I said no thanks to both Kerry and Bush (and no, I did not vote for Ralph Nader).

  • Mike Howell

    CK –

    YOU WIN – CREEPIEST BLOG EVER…

    Are you breaking up with him or something…eww…stalker city!

  • Shirin

    I don’t think anyone is suggesting that either Obama or Hillary would prohibit torture, Simon.

    As for your Auchi speculation – yeah, whatever. I’m sure Obama consults Auchi about all his decisions. Why, I’ll bet he’s even best friends with Auchi.

  • Shirin

    Grow up, Howell.

  • Mike Howell

    Shirin –

    Do you work for MSNBC? Were did you get this crap?

    Leading the free world isn’t a bed of roses, but to use Reagan’s litmus test:

    I was better off then than I am now – and so was the the U.S.

    I’m just glad that unlike Barack Hussein Hillary Rodham can figure out which button to push.

  • Shirin

    When was the last time California ended up going to a Republican?

  • CK

    @ Sometimes
    I knew I had heard that hope and change mantra somewhere in the last twenty years.
    I do not resent being called a traitor since I am an old Taft/Goldwater/Rothbard/Paul libertarian; but I would remind you that the neocons are the successful spawn of Leon (Lev Davidovich Bronstein) Trotsky. First they worked for and then perverted Henry “Scoop” ( Senator from Boeing ) Jackson, then seeing where the power was going, moved to infest and take over the republican party, and, of course, the mass commercial media. There are, unexceptionally, some folks who support the neocons and also attempt to fob themselves off as “cosmopolitan libertarians.” Such behaviour is explicitly part of the Troksky model and is explicitly defined and programmed in the diaries of Gramsci. These same trotskyites found a comfortable home at the National Review, thanks to William ( CIA Agent and asset) Buckley. Just as today the trotskyites find a convenient home on CNN with Anderson ( CIA asset) Cooper and Wolf ( dual citizenship ) Blitzer.
    In the 2000 campaign for president, the neocons were all supporters of John “Keating5″ McCain until Rove cleaned McCain’s clock in South Carolina. Immediately the neocons ran to the Bush campaign and have been a staple of the Bush administration and the Bush Media since then. There are no libertarians in the Bush administration. If you wish to throw the treason word around, through it towards the dual citizenship troskyites who still control most of the departments of the US government. And then after you throw it, check out the neocon advisors to Hillary, Obama, McCain and Huckabee.
    The fix is in, the die has been cast, the game is predetermined. Tweedle Dee, Tweedle Dum, Tweedle Hero and Tweedle Rapture.

  • TeakWoodKite

    trash money for immediate spending; on which trash my bank will pay no interest.

    That leaves me out and I know Templeton would be upset if he could not get interest on his trash.

    teak, cocobolo, rosewood, cuban mahogany, rhodesian copalwood, american black walnut all very special and indeed endangered.

  • blah

    odd, isn’t it, how none of her supporters seem remotely comfortable answering for that atrocious reality?

  • Shirin

    Ken, Obama is just as ignorant about Iraq as virtually every other American politician. They think it’s about putting pressure on the “the Iraqis” to get them to “reconcile”?! They haven’t got a clue about Iraq, Iraqis, what is going on there, and what is needed.

  • blah

    well, golly, glad to see you have a consistent commitment to some set of articulate principles. you hate bush, but if obama gets the nod, you’ll vote for mccain.

    yeah, that’s consistent.

    (sour grapes, anyone?)

  • Shirin

    Show me some actual evidence that Obama has a DIRECT link to Auchi. I don’t like Obama, and would LOVE to believe it if only someone will show me something more than speculation.

  • blah

    what was this from krugman about how the venom is coming from obama’s “side”?

  • blah

    so it was ok for all those several hundred thousand people to die. got it. at least she knows “what button to push”.

  • Mike Howell

    Shirin –

    I’m adult enough to vote in the last election – unlike you. You said you didn’t vote for Kerry, Bush or Nader.

    You just blog about how you hate the U.S. and never have anything constructive to offer.

    So maybe you can go steady with CK the other negative. Maybe the two of you could make a positive somehow?

  • CK

    1988 G. H. W. Bush vs Michael Dukakis

  • simon

    so it was ok for all those several hundred thousand people to die. got it. at least she knows “what button to push”.

    Obama has continually voted to fund the Iraqi war as a Senator.

    You are selectively inconsistent.

  • Shirin

    Where do I get this “crap”, Howell? I have accumulated it by means of paying close attention for years and years and years. I get it from refusing to accept the superficial “realities” that are foisted on the public by people whose own knowledge is, at best, limited in a highly biased way. I get it from years and years and years of study, observation, direct experience, and analysis. THAT’s where I get this “crap”, Howell.

    Where do you get YOUR crap, Howell?

  • TeakWoodKite

    And a Thousand points of light it was.

    OT:Dodd’s back on the Senate floor. Think he’ll filabuster?

  • simon

    odd, isn’t it, how none of her supporters seem remotely comfortable answering for that atrocious reality?

    Just did.

    Now tell me your opinion of the supposition Obama’s initial stance on the war was influenced by his relationship to Rezko, and Saddam’s right hand man, Auchi.

    Auchi is strongly connected to a known terrorist financial network. He was also a long time associate and confident of Saadam.

    Auchi also donated directly to Obama’s campaign.

  • simon

    Sorry, it’s the truth.

    They will take against Obama.

    And he does seem effeminate to me.

    Is that not PC?

  • TeakWoodKite

    @Simon, are you suggesting Obama is an unwitting Manchurian candidate?

  • simon

    What is this about your blindly enabling a man who has connections to a man, Auchi, who may have helped finance 9.11?

    Speaking of stinking up the place?

  • Shirin

    There is not enough difference between Obama and Hillary on Iraq, and on foreign and military policy to be significant.

    That is why I cannot support either one.

  • simon

    You are stinking up this place.

    Sorry, I farted.

    I’ll be more aware of your feelings next time.

  • simon

    I agree, CK, you strike me as troll, we have nothing to say.

    But I will be watching you.

  • Sometime-CIA-Defender

    Listen, I love Bill, really I do. But he has shown cowardice now and again. By gutting welfare in order to “reach across the aisle” and his general tendency to triangulate – the practice of only dealing with issues that you can “win” on with a certain level of certainty. It’s smart but cowardly. How about actually fighting for what you believe in, popularity of it be damned.

    And, though hindsight is 20-20, the Blackhawk Down thing was a political move that cost us blood and money. Again, anyone, even a politician as talented and smart as Bill can make mistakes, but to make him out to be Jesus is so similar to what’s happening with Obama it’s silly.

  • Shirin

    Simon, are you intentionally amplifying Auchi’s relationship to Saddam in the hopes that people don’t know enough of that particular history, or do you really believe everything you are saying about him?

    For your information, he was NOT Saddam’s right hand man – not even close. He also was not, as you insist his “chief weapons procurer” as you insist. There were many people involved in helping Saddam obtain weapons, and most of them were not Iraqis.

    And not you nor anyone else has so far provided a shred of anything but speculation that there is any connection between Obama and Auchi. Show me some actual evidence, Simon. I really want to see it.

    And by the way, your attempts to suggest that Obama’s opposition to the aggression against Iraq was “influenced” by Auchi and/or Rezko is risible. Men Like Nadhmi Auchi (and no doubt Rezko) are motivated purely by personal greed. Auchi would hardly have seen his next fortune coming from preventing the invasion of Iraq.

  • simon

    As for your Auchi speculation – yeah, whatever. I’m sure Obama consults Auchi about all his decisions. Why, I’ll bet he’s even best friends with Auchi

    Absurdist reductionism is trash, Dude.

    You still refuse to engage in a realistic discussion regarding Obama, Rezko and Auchi, this can come back to isolate you, and points to a major weakness.

    And that is the point, Auchi may tell Obama how to vote, money talks, and there is much corruption in Iraq, Auchi and certainly Rezko might have profited from the war.

    Rezko was Obama’s patron.

    Isn’t it worth looking into, at the very least?

    Who profits financially from our being in Iraq?

    I mean, Shirin, you’re the one who wants America out of Iraq, right, the first step is to see who is profiting by wanting us there.

    Right, Shirin?

    Right?

  • CK

    What does he have to lose? If he filibusters it plays well to the rubes, if he doesn’t he still has some cred for what he did last month. Win Win… it’s all good.
    More interesting question is are there any votes scheduled tonite and are the other three brave senators/candidates there?
    I ask you, honestly do you think this administration will stop spying on the citizenry whichever way this figleaf legislation comes out?
    And a follow up, do you think a dem administration would willingly give up the power to legally spy on its opponents for the next 8 years?
    I truly cannot understand why the government thinks it needs to know every citizen’s banking records, medical records, library reading records, google search records, amazon buying records, food buying records, every email you ever sent or received, every blog post you ever made, etc. etc.. Are there really that many islamofascist enablers and supporters in the USA? That many citizens here who want Sharia law ( recently enabled by the TEXAS supreme court)? I know that there was one american citizen who was with the taliban, that kid from Marin country. I kid in 300,000,000. ( But he was worth one of the sickest L&O episodes ever farted upon the tv screen). I confess to liking humus tahini and baba ghanooj and tzatziki dip, and taramasalata but I don’t really think that makes me a moslem fundie. ( Actually it would make me a fine Athenian since I also like retsina and ouzo and arrack).

  • Chris Vosburg

    Shirin writes: I don’t know about Kathleen, but I didn’t. I said no thanks to both Kerry and Bush (and no, I did not vote for Ralph Nader).

    No, not in 2004, but as you know, you did vote for him in 2000. Together with whoever the hell you threw your vote away for in 2004, that makes twice you helped George Bush into the White House, through disenfranchising yourelf and your vote by voting for ideologically “pure” candidates without a hope in hell of winning.

    Thanks.

    You once wrote that you felt that anyone who did not take an active role in preventing the invasion of Iraq was responsible for it– does this include those who helped put the Bush admin in the white house– twice, for God’s sake– through indifference to the consequences of casting a vote to stroke one’s self-esteem instead of benefitting the country?

    Just wondering.

  • simon

    Seems kind of effeminate to me, with all due respect, they will simply IGNORE him.

    You are stinking up this place

    .

    The other point being, SP, Obama supporters question Hillary’s efficacy as CIC, due to her gender, the underlying current of misogyny from Obama’s campaign is there, I’m calling it, it’s an old trick.

    What about Obama, though, let’s take a closer look, will the military respect him? Do you think this will not be a factor?

    Double standards, shoephone.

    Obama strikes me as effeminate, sorry, just his mannerisms strike me as feminine, anal retentive, and feminine.

    Fact.

    Do others see him this way, and how will a soldier react?

    If Clinton is fair game, so is Obama.

    Right?

    No double standard here, right?

    One is a woman, the other effeminate, and the military might have a problem with both.

    Should we push it under the rug, like it wont be a factor?

    Let’s discuss it, you pretend it doesnt exist, and someone will use it against both, neither openly confronting the issue allowing those who would use it to game both.

    It’s brutal.

    You know, it’s OK to be gay, or effeminate, but to deny it isn’t a factor in the decision making of others is obtuse.

    Really, you don’t want to discuss it, why?

    How do you think Rush is using this, to sway his audience?

    He won’t.

  • http://www.despair.com/sacrifice1.html Smilin’ Jim

    That was really ugly. West Seattle was like a free fire zone because all the Scoop Jackson operatives adopted a scorched-earth policy.

    If you crave continuity, you will find some comfort with Teddy Kennedy. He is screwing the Democrat Party in the same manner in his Pyrrhic run against Carter just before the Reagan victory. If only it was Kopechne that walked away from that wreck instead of him.

  • Shirin

    LOOOOOOOOOL! Oh yeah, Auchi, a stinking rich Christian Iraqi, REALLY wants to see the revival of the Islamic empire in the form of a Salafi empire! SURE he helped finance 9/11.

    You are really going off the deep end, Simon! Your hysteria reminds me of the people who believed Colin Powell’s crap about Saddam’s chemical and biological weapons.

  • blah

    i don’t recall saying that i am big fan of obama.

    the point is that hillary’s supporters always hide from the ATROCIOUS and BLOODY history of the Clintons’ foreign policy.

  • blah

    not interested in paranoid conspiracy theories. was it you that came up with “obama outed plame” as well?

    speaking of cults, that is

  • blah

    yes, i admit the truth! muuaahahahahah!!!! barack HUSSEIN obama was secretly linked to Saddam Hussein, and wanted to protect Hussein, because of the all the dirty money his iraqi war criminal fellow travelers gave him to oppose the war publicly! muahahahahaha! the truth is out at last!

  • blah

    the documents you want were all destroyed when the US invaded Iraq by Saddam Hussein himself, who wanted Obama safe to run as a Manchurian candidate in 2008. Didn’t you know? Obama’s candidacy is just part of Saddam’s evil plot to attack us from Iraq!

  • Thinker

    I haven’t read too many comments here. But I do notice a lot of Blue troll activity. Hi Shoefone;)

    It is interesting you come up with the notion of a cult, Susan. I think that Mrs Clinton is on the brink of that concept as well. Certainly in Australia Rudd’s power to the people bullshit is vintage Clinton. Have a look what Rudd’s done since taking power…….ROTFLOL…..what a sad World!!!

    There is a subtle difference between Clinton and Obama. Obama is rather more American and full of himself. Whereas Mrs Clinton is trying to be British and reserved. She still is full of herself, because she is American, but that is the difference between the two. They pretty much say the same thing and the chances are the same sort of stuff will happen with either at the helm.

    However, in the establishment game – the grand plan, Mrs Clinton must win. Bush – Clinton – Bush – ?. Remember Bush senior had a great chunk of Reagen’s term as well. Clinton kept on mentioning the new world order in his dialog as President. Mrs Clinton has been given the job of turning the World into a white picket fence society in my opinion. The worst NGO’s will be agressively mobilised in the fight for decency.

    Though she will fail dismally in her attempts, I fear the problems she will cause those who simply express themselves in different ways. Obama just wants to get even richer. He’s the safe bet.

  • http://www.despair.com/sacrifice1.html Smilin’ Jim

    Perhaps you overlooked the interesting series, also in the New York Times, of blog articles by Stanley Fish, a guy who used to teach at Beserkly but now holds chairs at Florida International U and U of Illinois.

    Fish first ran an essay on Hillary Hatred after he read a piece about it in GQ. He has also published in the NYT blog a follow-up piece on the comments to his original piece.

    Fish is clearly intrigued by what crawls out from under that rock.

    Study his methods if you want to hit the big time; he got 604 comments on the first article and is up to 400 on the latest.

  • simon

    What vote are you referring to, Simon?

    Obama, his votes to support the Iraqi war, to continually fund the war, Shirin, despite his opposition to it.

    It’s inconsistent to for Obama to decry his opponents “support” for the war, yet continue to vote to fund it.

    Shirin, you must see how obvious this is, how hypocritically simplistic Obama really is, light as air.

    I’m sorry, I thought the inference was obvious, I’ll be more careful, next time I post to carefully make attributions, I certainly HATE to inadvertently obfuscate.

  • Shirin

    Chris, I just love the way you, who have never met me, know next to nothing about me, my history, or how I think, would not know me if I fell from the sky and landed on your head, are sooooooo convinced you know everything I have ever done and every thought in my head.

    No, Chris, I did not vote for Nader in 2000. I have never voted for Nader. So sorry to disappoint you!

    And no, Chris, I did not help George Bush into the White House either in 2000 or in 2004. You see, Chris, I understand well enough how the American election system works and it was clear enough in which direction my state would go that I knew my voting for a third party candidate would not make one scintilla of difference in who ended up in the White House, so I could safely vote my conscience (which is what everyone should, and few actually do). You see, Chris, I don’t live in a swing state, I live in a very solidly “blue” state, and there was never a moment’s doubt that all the electors from my state would go to whomever was the Democrat candidate.

    So, you are dead wrong, as usual, on every single count.

  • simon

    i don’t recall saying that i am big fan of obama.

    the point is that hillary’s supporters always hide from the ATROCIOUS and BLOODY history of the Clintons’ foreign policy.

    The inference, defined by your obtuse criticism of Clinton, defined by your explicit word usage, word choice, would indicate your support Obama.

    In addition, you do not equally criticize Obama in the manner you do Clinton, and of course, “big fan” is a disingenuous attempt to define “is.”

    If you didn’t understand that last sentence, let me know, and I will analyze your post word, by word, and your attack on Clinton, it’s implication by absence.

  • simon

    @Simon, are you suggesting Obama is an unwitting Manchurian candidate?

    That would be too creepy.

    Sometimes, at night, when I almost asleep, I guess it’s just anxious fear, I think yeah, he is like a Manchurian candidate, but knowingly. But you know how it is when you’re dreaming, none if it is real, right?

    I don’t know why, but I thought the other day he is in some ways worse than Bush.

    It all goes to Auchi, that level of corruption people just do not want to acknowledge it, no conspiracy there.

  • Shirin

    Of COURSE! How silly of me!

  • TeakWoodKite

    Dodd lose? “Is this about security or is this about power?” Senator Dodd
    No votes tonight; 8 votes tommorrow all 60 vote “majority” and cloture on the underlining bill.
    Considering this domestic spying has been going on for since the birth of the nation; no.
    Qiute frankly the government has no GOOD reason to be tracking if I checkout “Mein Kampf” or anything else.
    Sharia law for use in binding arbitration…how novel.

    http://www.2ndcoa.courts.state.tx.us/opinions/HTMLopinion.asp?OpinionID=14601

    This along with the growing hawala banking models in the US will be over turned. Them Surpremes got English common law on the brain.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/general-reports-1/iraq_wmd_2004/chap2_annxG.html

    http://users.bart.nl/~abdul/article3.html

  • Shirin

    OK, when you said “Obama’s vote” I understood you to mean a single, specific vote. Now I see that what you said was ambiguous and you might have meant his voting record in general.

    But look, Obama is hardly the only person in Congress to profess to be against the attack, invasion, and occupation of Iraq who has also consistently voted to fund it, so I am not sure it makes really good sense to single him out over and above all the rest.

    As I have stated repeatedly here for months, I am opposed to Obama. I made my decision about him some time ago based on his history, his record on issues that matter most to me, and his stated intentions regarding issues that matter most to me. I have been very specific about saying what those issues are and why I oppose Obama. I don’t feel a need to examine him further than that, including going into his personality, his character, or his real or imagined personal connections. It’s finished for me, and I have moved on. No need to dwell on something once the choice is made. The time and mental bandwidth are needed now for other important choices. Understood?

    I did not vote for him in the primary, and I will not vote for him in the general election. So, please stop trying to convince me of what I have already decided. You are wasting your time.

  • Shirin

    Simon, I think I know what your problem is. You have somehow allowed yourself to become obsessed with this guy Auchi, and I guess you don’t really have enough background information to see him and his place realistically.

    Calm down, and try to engage your rational brain. You’re getting too hysterical.

  • TeakWoodKite

    I guess it’s just anxious fear
    Simon; man is not alone in this universe.

    As smart as Obama would have to be as a lone wolf, you DON’T get to play if you can’t pay.
    I have not seen any leaked or public vetted info to this affect. I assume nothing.
    Dreaming is a very real reality and no less valid than being “awake”. How else does one believe people can be so motivated against their own interests when manipulated by pols that ask the surfs to “dare to dream” ?

  • Sometime-CIA-Defender

    Hey, I said the libertarians who support the neocons. :) I know there are libertarians who mean well. Heck, I even agree with some of it— one thing that has always put the US ahead is the fact that people can improve their station by hard work. It encourages entrepreneurism (is that a word?), small businesses, etc. The other thing they do (similarly) is prevent the progressives from raising taxes so high that business endeavors cease to be worthwhile (this is the number one complaint about France I hear from the vast majority Parisians I’ve met, and #1 compliment about the US).

    But when it involves selling nuclear secrets to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, or other treasonous acts, we must draw the line. Also, (and I wish to Hell I could find the old article) the 2001 NIE released in November 2001 said that the #1 threat to US National Security was NOT militant Islam but the ever widening gap between the rich and the poor; IOW, the disappearance of the middle class. I still think this is the case and it was the reason I supported Edwards initially.

    There’s nothing wrong with big business, being rich, being conservative (or progressive), so long as there are checks and balances. This is the notion our country was founded on, and in fact the so-called Founding Fathers disagreed sharply on many things. It was this struggle and rivalry that lead to a great nation being born. It was when Bush/Cheney used 911 to dismantle all of the checks and balances that things got really screwed up.

    Which leads me to the next Obama criticism that is working so darn with the Obamites: the idea that arguing is “politics as usual.” It is politics as usual, but that’s not only not a bad thing, it is necessary to our survival.

  • CK

    @ TWK
    The hawala model has an underlying requirement: that the money handlers be trustworthy. That requires an unblemished family or clan reputation going back several hundred years. Many of the Hawala banking families are older than the USA. The closest the USA had to a firm with that kind of reputation was Western Union. And western union offers no privacy, no anonymity, and not much security.
    ’tis a shame.

  • simon

    Simon, are you intentionally amplifying Auchi’s relationship to Saddam in the hopes that people don’t know enough of that particular history, or do you really believe everything you are saying about him?

    What do you now of Auchi, Shirin?

    Tell me your knowledge of him.

    Have you read the Chicago Sun Times, the London Times, the Chicago Tribune, and the Harper’s article Susan referenced?

    This is truth, Shirin.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3284825.ece

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/feb/02/iraq.labour

    For your information, he was NOT Saddam’s right hand man – not even close. He also was not, as you insist his “chief weapons procurer” as you insist. There were many people involved in helping Saddam obtain weapons, and most of them were not Iraqis.

    This is not true, either, Shirin.

    Iraqis not involved with illegal arms trading?

    That is laughable.

    Try this link, from the New York Times:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9805EEDE1E3DF933A05757C0A9659C8B63&scp=1&sq=BNP&st=nyt

    Certainly Auchi has connections with Saddam, moving money at this level to Iraq would not be left to an individual not vetted by Saddam, simply common sense.

    (I will try to find a more detailed source in regard to illegal Iraqi arms trading, I’m sure the New York Times has a wealth of information.)

    The man who writes for this blog, Nabris Kazimi, writes with a more familiar view of Auchi:

    http://talismangate.blogspot.com/2008/02/obamas-saddam-connection.html

    Those are but just a few of the legitimate news sources questioning Auchi’s past.

    Try a Google search, Auchi has also been convicted in France for bribery.

    And not you nor anyone else has so far provided a shred of anything but speculation that there is any connection between Obama and Auchi. Show me some actual evidence, Simon. I really want to see it.

    You are wrong, Shirin, or you are lying.

    There is a tremendous amount of evidence, and you cannot create your own reality, you just look crazy.

    londontimes.com, has corroborated the truth of this statement.

    And by the way, your attempts to suggest that Obama’s opposition to the aggression against Iraq was “influenced” by Auchi and/or Rezko is risible. Men Like Nadhmi Auchi (and no doubt Rezko) are motivated purely by personal greed. Auchi would hardly have seen his next fortune coming from preventing the invasion of Iraq.

    That would be a load of shit, Shirin, you in no way know what influences a man like Auchi, none us can really, unless we can become a part of him, his mind. Sadaam did not want war, Auchi may have worked to prevent America from invading his country, again, let’s look at this from both angles, Obama is certainly not a saint, he has a pattern of lying, he is very much a child of lobbyists (did you read the Harper’s article Susan referenced?)

    Google is your friend Shirn, there is not a conspiracy against Obama, just a need to understand WHY he is associating with such dirty, corrupt men.

    The same would be true of Clinton, but Obama’s ties to men who are strongly suspected of financing and profiting form terrorism is worrisome, to say the least.

    It is not unreasonable to suggest an open mind, an investigation, these questions just never go away, no matter how much others try to spin.

  • simon

    not interested in paranoid conspiracy theories. was it you that came up with “obama outed plame” as well?

    speaking of cults, that is

    No no I’m the one with the alien neofeminist shoe Nazi conspiracy.

    Get it straight, don’t confuse me with those kooks.

    I_ have an imagination.

    Well, that, and the people who support Obama support middle east terrorism…

    lol.

  • simon

    Shirin, people just don’t read you, and you allow them to draw you into a troll you never control, despite your best attempts.

  • Star

    blah –

    Barack Hussein Obama supports the Nation of Islam in his church, which hands out awards to Louis Farakan, and in his personal opinions in his crappy books.

    Bill Clinton was the best President in our nations’ proud history. The Presidency isn’t for weenies like Urkle.

  • simon

    Yes, that’s it!

    Thank you.

    Now tell us how the rest of Congress, and the sybil edmonds players, are involved, both democratic and republican, in one way or another…

  • CK

    / snark on/
    2001 NIE? That would have been developed under the Clinton’s right? That would have to be one of the earlier NIE’s published before the famous “Bin Laden determined to do something to the USA.” NIE that our new president ignored.
    /more snark/
    “… or other treasonous acts, …” Would that be related to the Sibel Edmonds story about dual nationals in the state department facilitating the transmission of american nuclear secrets through the intermediation of the Turkish and Israeli security services to the ISI? A story which seems to have dissapated.
    / snark off/

    Unfortunately I do not see anything in the four extant candidates that suggests that they will be able to handle the job of helping america survive.

  • Mike Howell

    I agree that men like Barack Hussein Obama are motivated purely by personal greed like their associates.

    The Daley machine would sure be change, but not the kind I hoped for!

  • Mike Howell

    Star –

    I’m touched that you appreciated Barack Hussein Obama’s resemblence to Urkle!

  • Mike Howell

    TWK –

    He’s too much of a geek to play the part.

    Plus Barack Hussein Obama wears his love for the Nation of Islam on his sleeve.

  • alexei

    Agree, if people continue to talk about the AUMF, and those who voted yes to be warmongers, what is Nader and those that voted for him? Bush’s “official victory” in Florida was 537, and 97,000 voted for Nader in that state. So, who is at fault that we are in Iraq?

  • Chris Vosburg

    Shirin writes: No, Chris, I did not vote for Nader in 2000. I have never voted for Nader. So sorry to disappoint you!

    I’m sure that you said you did, in the comments section of this blog, prior to its reincarnation as “noquarter.net”, now unavailable.

    I laughed at the time, because you posted it simultaneously to my comment that “it sounds like you voted for Nader in 2000″, leading me to tease with “boy have I ever got your number.”

    So those here will have to decide whether I’m fudging facts or you are. No problem.

    Perhaps you said that you “supported” Nader– without actually casting a vote for him– or some other dodge that enables you to skate around the truth.

    And as for the “solidly blue state” nonsense, which has been used by many more Californians than I care to count to meekly justify in retrospect a vote for one’s own self-image, go look again at the response to your short-memory-revealing rhetorical question “when was the last time California ended up going to a Republican?”

    The answer again, was 1988, GHW Bush v Michael Dukakis. And don’t forget 1984. And 1980. 1976. 1972. 1968.

    Solidly blue, your great Aunt Fatima.

    Yours is simply an excuse of a piece with those who simply don’t vote, and say at the result “see, my vote wouldn’t have made a difference”.

  • John

    Check out my post on tonight’s open thread. I was appalled at Rhodes tonight, she was so disgustingly partisan toward Obama, it was impossible to listen to for long.

    And I used “Air Obama” not realizing you had already- great minds think alike!

  • TeakWoodKite

    Obama wears his love for the Nation of Islam on his sleeve
    And this makes him different than any other human who uses religion as a blunt instrument; how?

    Paperwork is a geek’s worse nightmare so on that you may be onto something there :)

  • TeakWoodKite

    Same for New Hampshire at that time.

  • Cee

    Sometime,

    From the Asia Times

    Closing the globalization ‘Gap’
    The Pentagon’s New Map: War and Peace in the Twenty-First Century by Thomas P M Barnett.

    According to Barnett, it is precisely this “disconnectedness” between the Core and the Gap that is the principal security threat to the US in particular, and the rest of the Core in general. He sees the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, as the strongest manifestation of the widening gulf between the global haves and have-nots, and stresses that the Core ignores the Gap at its peril. In essence, he interprets the terrorists’ message as being, “If I cannot enjoy your good life, then neither will you” (p 298). The real enemy is therefore not militant Islam, nor the Middle East, but rather the condition of disconnectedness.

  • Mike Howell

    Chris Vosburg-

    shirin’s nonsense isn’t worth your valuable time. It’s one big “nuh uh” – where shirin’s imaginary candidate won on planet Negative!

    My guess is that shirin is in the pokey and can’t vote.

  • Mike Howell

    Barnett’s got a line of crap. Militant Islam is a real problem. They don’t want our good life – they don’t want us to have a good life. They want to go back several centuries and keep women as property. What does that have to with poverty?

    We were able to co-opt the Communists because they wanted our stuff. These crazy bastards couldn’t care less. Civilization started there and … stopped.

  • simon

    Wow, and here I was thinking Shirin sounded like the typical Obama supporter.

    Speaking to Shirin is very good practice, tracking and trolling at the same time.

  • blah

    wow, you manage to still avoid addressing the actual point (the clintons’ bloody history). that’s ok, the clintons hide from people who bring up that point, too.

  • simon

    Immature extremists

    You being what, exactly?

    who threaten to saddle us with more torture, more war, more illegal spying and more economic disaster just because their preference doesn’t get the nomination should go form their own party and leave good Democrats the hell alone.

    This is illogical, given those who surround Obama, particularly if you support him.

    Why do you think he will be the superior candidate?

    He lies.

  • Mike Howell

    blah –

    Nobody is responding to you because as usual you aren’t making any sense.

  • Mr.Murder

    She had injuries consistent with having drove the car.

    That event is not really pertinent to the discussion for that fact.

  • alexei

    Correct, NH too.

  • simon

    Listen, I love Bill, really I do. But he has shown cowardice now and again. By gutting welfare in order to “reach across the aisle” and his general tendency to triangulate

    1990′s political model, I also believed in political pragmatism, until Bush and Cheney.

    (And Obama believes in political pragmatism, too.)

    It became readily apparent bait and switch was the model for Bush/Cheney, though, their behavior being no different than that of the Southern slave owners, during the civil war.

    Those men, the slave owners, had no intention of compromising with the North until the US was a slave nation. Same with the current crop of Republicans, and their agenda.

    It finally took Lincoln to recognize this, and fight.

    But there were many an ignorant compromise.

    the practice of only dealing with issues that you can “win” on with a certain level of certainty. It’s smart but cowardly

    Clinton took on gays in the military, seriously derailing his Presidency from the start. But he did it, anyway.

    Hillary tried to introduce UHC, was excoriated, publicly. But she did it anyway, again, courage.

    Obama votes present on abortion bills, or doesn’t show up, because he’s fearful of taking a stand.

    That’s pussy. (At the risk of stinking up the place again.)

    So you’re really describing Obama, arent you?

    Again, anyone, even a politician as talented and smart as Bill can make mistakes, but to make him out to be Jesus is so similar to what’s happening with Obama it’s silly

    .

    YOU made him out to be Jesus, please don’t project false quotes to me, you’ll confuse yourself.

    I’m not the one who sees Obama as a genius, don’t confuse me with the fanbois.

    But compared to Bush, or Obama, Bill is Jesus, compared to the MORONS we have to deal with now, Bill walked on water.

  • Mike Howell

    Wow! This is News!!

    This is the first time that I’ve heard anyone say that he wasn’t driving. Kennedy said that he was driving.

    What injuries indicated that she was driving and where did you get this info.?

  • Mike Howell

    Simon –

    Very nice!

    I was wondering where the Jesus part came from and you’re quite – right it came from “Sometime-CIA-Defender”.

  • Sometime-CIA-Defender

    First, Simon, sorry if you feel like I’m attacking you. I’m not. Really. What I am trying to do is bring some calm, cool, thought to this situation (for everyone), in an atmosphere where slamming people seems to be the only means of discourse any more. As I said, I believe this devisiveness is only aiding the GOP. And, the way things are going, I may have to amend my prediction to switch Obama and Clinton. Whether or not it’s cultism (and as I said, it sounds like it to me), it seems to be working for Obama. The racial-line theory doesn’t seem to be holding up and there’s going to either be a lot of crow to eat for some of us or another four years of a Republican presidency. Do we want to win, or just be pissed off because our favorite didn’t get the nomination?

    Obama votes present on abortion bills, or doesn’t show up, because he’s fearful of taking a stand.

    WaPo

    Of the eight senators pondering presidential runs, Clinton (N.Y.), who is completing her first Senate term, and Obama (Ill.), sworn in two years ago, have the briefest voting histories. The Senate has held 645 roll-call votes during their shared tenure, and more than 90 percent of the time the two senators stood with other Democrats. They opposed John G. Roberts Jr.’s nomination as chief justice, supported increased funding for embryonic stem cell research and backed the same nonbinding measure that urged President Bush to plan for a gradual troop withdrawal from Iraq.

    But other votes reveal important differences between the Democratic rivals that distinguish them as they prepare to launch their anticipated candidacies. The areas of dispute include energy policy, congressional ethics and budget priorities, relations with Cuba, gun ownership, and whether a senator can hold a second job.

    In corn-growing Iowa, the first stop in the presidential nominating process, Clinton will have to explain the ethanol vote she cast on June 15, 2005. The senator recently softened her stance, but she is on record opposing a large federal boost for the grain-based fuel.

    And Obama voted to increase taxes when he opposed a package of business breaks that included the extension of middle-class provisions. Clinton voted for the tax bill — before she voted against it, as did Obama, in the legislation’s final form.

    So most of the time, they vote the same and even have around the same absence rate. They have some differing issues, but it’s split down to less than 10%! That’s practically splitting hairs, especially since that few number of issues either one could possibly swing on.

    From the Washington Times, August 1996 (I may have gotten my campaigns mixed up above… the Hope is Back thing actually came in ’96, not ’92, but like I said, I wasn’t paying that close of attention in ’92):

    Clinton: `Hope is back in America’: He vows `campaign of ideas’.(A)
    Washington Times, The, August, 1996 by Murray, Frank J.
    CHICAGO – President Clinton accepted his party’s nomination for a second term last night with a promise to build a “bridge to the 21st century” and a secure, less hostile nation. “Our strategy is simple but profound. Opportunity for all. Responsibility for all,” Mr. Clinton said in a speech that ended a Democratic National Convention dedicated to unifying the party and recapturing control of Congress.

    Now, tell me that doesn’t sound like Obama now. Whether or not we think he’s sincere, he has taken plays directly from the Clinton playbook and it’s why he’s doing so well.

    The question in my mind is, is he going to make the same mistake and assume he can reason with people who only want to see him fail, even if they agree with him on some issues?

  • Sometime-CIA-Defender

    Can al-Queda EVER prevent us from being a free nation? Can they EVER overthrow our government? Can they EVER cause us to shred the Constitution? I think it’s ‘no’ all around. Only WE can do those things. That’s why allowing leaders to do whatever they want without oversight, being held responsible, and to run roughshod over us is far worse.

    As I recall, Militant Islam ran 3rd in that NIE. Think that #2 was climate change. But I’m not sure. In any case, sure, it’s an issue, but not the TOP one. And, yes, it would have been the work of people in place by the previous administration (which is sort of my point).

    BTW, new book out about how Condie let all sorts of good intel about al-Queda-is-coming sit on her desk in July and August ’01. The author was on Daily Show this evening.

  • Mr.Murder

    Obama’s actual verbal opposition against the war, at an anti war gathering, was not proof of courage.

    He didn’t take that protest to the power establishment. His vote for war funding proves that fact.

    Were he not to run on that notion, with qualifiers that he gets to change policy against war in office if circumstance mitigate, well that’s pretty much a hot air promise.

    Were his own policy and votes consistent with his outlook I’d have no problem with him running on his supposed morals.

    As for people coming up with other criticisms, it says as much about our prior bias as it does about the candidates. That’s why running on talking points against traditional democratic positions is so crucial an item to be critical of on Obama’s behalf.

    Were Obama not aware of some kind of notion that he’s not assertive enough, he put in a carnival barking, gay hating preacher to shore up his manliness bona fides. If you say the comment above is beyond the pale for bringing in that kind of talk, where’s the consistency of calling Obama out for using the same items as a defense mechanism in his campaign? There’s no place for it from either side.

    Meanwhile, the GOP has smaller fish to fry this week.
    The reason they dropped the vote count in Washington was that uber-wingers would have put Ron Paul into second place ahead of either GOP frontrunner
    .

    Probably on McCain, that would have really been an eyesore for the straight talker.

    Final note, the number of people saying they would “not vote for Obama but would for Hillary” and vice-versa, matches the numbers of true believers in the GOP. Thirty percenters, war can still be won types…

    …strange the numbers match. Dems eating Dems over a talking point started by Republican leaning polls. You do recognize the polls split it 50-50 when Dems outnumber repubs 2 to 1? That 30% that will switch votes and put conservative judges in place, is about the number of people who poll in the range that would claim to switch parties. Instead of the hardened voters that essentially determine party results, who wouldn’t be caught calling themselves the other party if it meant their vote depended on it. Thirty percenters who believe the war can be won, happen to repeat divsive talkingpoints to pollsters, when they are weighted heavier than their outcome numbers merit. Strangely enough, several GOP types are claiming they would vote Obama instead of McCain, into a 30% range….

  • Cee

    CK,

    I ask you, honestly do you think this administration will stop spying on the citizenry whichever way this figleaf legislation comes out?

    No.

    And a follow up, do you think a dem administration would willingly give up the power to legally spy on its opponents for the next 8 years?

    No. I was glad to see that Arthur Silber is feeling a bit better and is back at it.

    From the American Protective League to InfraGard, it has been a long, tortuous road, one which ceaselessly destroyed liberty and individual rights. The ultimate destination has never changed: the installation of an unassailable, enormously privileged ruling elite — which, no matter the cost in liberty or blood, will get what it wants.

    You need not despair, and you need not be paralyzed by depression. To change our direction, we must understand fully and completely how we arrived here, and we must appreciate just how dire our predicament is. And to change it, we need a great deal of courage.
    http://www.powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/

  • shirin

    Simon,

    1. I don’t need to read American magazine articles to know what I know about Iraq, its political history, Saddam Hussein, his regime, and the people involved with his regime. And that’s all I am going to say about that.

    2. When someone distorts or misrepresents what I say, or puts words into my mouth, it makes me feel that attempting to converse with them is a waste of time because it means that they are not at all interested in what I am actually saying. And that is all I am going to say about that for now.

    3. If you have reality-based evidence (as opposed to speculation) that Obama has a direct, personal connection with Auchi, then please share it with me in a calm, rational, civil manner.

  • TeakWoodKite

    Still the Sharia law for use in binding arbitration when all parties agree to the format is a novel way of injecting precidence.

  • s. hall

    My worry is that the powers that be want Obama to win. That is a real scary senario. Obama seems to be trying to pit the young against the old. Haven’t we had our fill of Demogogues? Do they ever accomplish anything but division and hate?

  • s. hall

    I hope you’re right. If Obama gets the nomination this lifelong Democrat will vote for her first Republican.

  • s. hall

    For me the fault lies with Howard Dean who seems unwilling or unable to control this runaway candidate. Ronald Reagan had what he called the 11th commandment — Not to speak ill of members of other Republicans. Obama however, cares nothing about destroying the successful presidency of Bill Clinton. His negative comments about fellow Democrats as well as Democratic constituancies seem to go unnoticed by the DNC who seems to have no problem with Obama’s attacks on women. Obama has won his caucuses with his Democrat for a Day Republicans. Now Old Howard wants all primaries to be caucuses. Brilliant Howie and what will you call the party that replaces the Democats?

  • TeakWoodKite

    Who needs to pretend? It is their make believe world not mine.

  • s. hall

    So you have no problem with Obama in 04 saying that he really didn’t know what he would have done about Iraq if he had he been President and that Bush had done the best he could.

    Hillary Clinton gave Bush nothing. 95% of Americans stood squarely with Bush after 9/11. Obama was seated in his little job in the State Senate however when he got to the US Senate he voted for every appropriation for the war in Iraq. Obama talks the talk but when it comes to walking the walk Obama just says present.

  • TeakWoodKite

    I said before elect BOMB,Bomb Iran man and the kiss Roe v Wade good bye.and everything TEDDY WORKED SO HARD TO dreamed of. What a joke.

  • s. hall

    Simon you make a really good point. Who is pulling Obama’s strings? 2 two year Senator gets 130 Million for what? They say you can never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people. But its hard to believe that after 7 years of Bush people are willing to throw away what’s left of this country on this fraud. What if the media wants to take Obamarama all the way to the White House? What the hell is this dude’s agenda? The mind boggles.

  • s. hall

    From what I remember of the Clinton administration he had 8 years of a solid economy and peace around the world. We had money in the treasury and Social Security was on solid ground. Were we better off then — DAMN STRAIGHT WE WERE.

  • Jacek

    Hmm, interesting. Can you explain then, Senate Bill 433 introduced in January 2007? It is titled “`Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007.” Please let me know who drafted and submitted said bill. Also, here is an excerpt:

    SEC. 3. APPROPRIATE FORCE LEVELS FOR UNITED STATES MILITARY FORCES IN IRAQ.

    Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the levels of the Armed Forces of the United States in Iraq after the date of the enactment of this Act shall not exceed the levels of such forces in Iraq as of January 10, 2007, without specific authority in statute enacted by Congress after the date of the enactment of this Act.

    SEC. 4. REDEPLOYMENT OF UNITED STATES MILITARY FORCES FROM IRAQ.

    (a) Redeployment-

    (1) DEADLINE FOR COMMENCEMENT OF REDEPLOYMENT- Except as otherwise provided in this section, the phased redeployment of the Armed Forces of the United States from Iraq shall commence not later than May 1, 2007.

    (2) SCOPE AND MANNER OF REDEPLOYMENT- The redeployment of the Armed Forces under this section shall be substantial, shall occur in a gradual manner, and shall be executed at a pace to achieve the goal of the complete redeployment of all United States combat brigades from Iraq by March 31, 2008, consistent with the expectation of the Iraq Study Group, if all the matters set forth in subsection (b)(1)(B) are not met by such date, subject to the exceptions for retention of forces for force protection, counter-terrorism operations, training of Iraqi forces, and other purposes as contemplated by subsection (g).

    (3) FORMULATION OF PLAN WITH MILITARY COMMANDERS- The redeployment of the Armed Forces under this section should be conducted pursuant to a plan formulated by United States military commanders that is developed, if practicable, in consultation with the Government of Iraq.

    (4) PROTECTION OF UNITED STATES FORCES AND CIVILIAN PERSONNEL- In carrying out the redeployment of the Armed Forces under this section, the highest priority shall be afforded to the safety of members of the Armed Forces and civilian personnel of the United States in Iraq.

  • s. hall

    Not such an odd thought–The Manchurian Candidate.

  • s. hall

    Me too — I will cast my first Republican vote for McCain. I can’t stand the thought of hating another president for another 4 years.

  • shirin

    The redeployment of the Armed Forces…shall be executed at a pace to achieve the goal of the complete redeployment of all United States combat brigades from Iraq by March 31, 2008, consistent with the expectation of the Iraq Study Group, if all the matters set forth in subsection (b)(1)(B) are not met by such date, subject to the exceptions for retention of forces for force protection, counter-terrorism operations, training of Iraqi forces, and other purposes as contemplated by subsection (g).

    Oooooops! Surprise, surprise! Why, this section of the Bill contains a contradiction! How can they “retain forces” to fulfill such combat missions as “force protection” and “counter-terrorism operations”, and of course, “other purposes” if they are going to withdraw “all combat brigades”.

    Typical imperial double-speak.

  • Jacek

    Ha! Gotcha…it was drafted by Obama, Shirin. Although to most laypeople this language is unsatisfactory, the fact remains that there are problematic constitutional issues for the Congress to involve themselves in the prosecution of the war. ALthough Bush has far exceeded the nightmares of most constitutional scholars, the fact remains that Article 3 does preclude the authority of the Congress in this manner. Although I am far from a constitutional scholar, I do read Supreme Ct. decisions that interest me. It may sound like “double-speak,” but Obama is really pushing the bounds of congressional authority here.

  • Mr.Murder

    Apologies, I was misinformed.

  • shirin

    And what does pretending you will withdraw combat forces while leaving some troops in combat roles have to do with that?

    Look, both Obama and Hillary are playing the same game in this regard in their campaigns. Neither has any intention of ending the U.S. military/imperial role in Iraq.

  • kenoshaMarge

    I can not vote for a Republican, no matter what. But I will vote Green if Obama is the candidate. No amount of nose-holding would allow me to vote for a man that talks of uniting while doing his level best to divide. His politics may be different than George Bush but the tactics of smearing everyone that doesn’t agree with your agenda is the same. A Progressive using Rovian Tactics is no better than a Conservative doing the same.

    And I have met with the same kind of vitriol from Obama supporters as I encountered from Conservative Bush Supporters.

    But if Obama wins the nomination they’ll be all interested in getting the rest of us to fall into line and insist we have to suddenly work together to keep them “evil” Republicans out of the White House. Maybe they shouldn’t have dissed so many people that didn’t support “their” candidate. The time will come when they may understand that they need the votes of those they reviled, insulted, and dismissed as “yesterday’s news”. This old lady from yesterday ain’t so senile yet that I don’t know and won’t remember that I was being marginalized or when someone is a bigot. Age discrimination is no prettier than any other kind of discrimination. And when it’s sexism added to age discrimination you get a twofer. In a population that always votes. So I hope the Obama supporters keep insulting and arrogantly dismissing the “Blue Hair Brigade”. They are losing voters hand over fist every time they do.

  • kenoshaMarge

    I will not vote for Obama but never in a million years would I, could I, vote for Insane McCain! Good grief, he thinks it’s just jim dandy if our troops are in Iraq for 100 years!
    I will vote Green if Obama wins the nomination. I too damn old and too damn tired to let some knucklehead tell me that I “have” to vote for someone because they are a liberal/progressive. I will vote my conscience from now on. Some may call that ego or voting my own self-esteem, whatever the hell that means, but insulting someone doesn’t seem the way to convince them about how YOU think they should vote.

  • kenoshaMarge

    I voted for Bill Clinton twice and was proud to do so. Was he perfect? Good grief no. Tell me one damn president that was ever perfect. But when Obama consistantly talks about the failure of Bill Clinton and how it’s all Bill Clinton’s fault that Democrats lost so many elections he is enraging a whole lot of Democrats. Not much unting in that.

    Let’s face it, in the last 40 years there have been only 12 years when there were Democrats in the White House. Four years for Jimmy Carter and 8 Years of Bill Clinton. For a Democrat, any Democrat to marginalize the one successful, if not great or perfect, Democratic Administration in recent history is insane!
    And here’s damn Teddy Kenndedy shooting off his big mouth again. Guess he isn’t content with tearing down Jimmy Carter and giving us Reagan for 8 years and Bush I for 4, now he wants to play kingmaker since he can no longer have any hopes of being king. Unless he wants for Carolyn Kennedy to be the first “woman” president.

  • Chris Vosburg

    Simon writes: Wow, and here I was thinking Shirin sounded like the typical Obama supporter.

    Edwards. Pay attention! :-)

    Wonder why we Californians keep winding up with these damn republican governors, what with us being so “solidly blue” an’ all.

  • bob h

    I admire both Dems, but feel there is nothing new they can throw at Hillary, who knows how to throw it back in their faces anyway. The big risk is how Obama will absorb the shit that would inevitably be coming his way. I suspect well, but who knows?

  • Pug

    You know, it is really pretty simple. All Hillary has to do is win. With all the money, all the name recognition and the institutional adavantages she had to start, what does it say about her as a candidate that she can’t put away an upstart like Obama?

    It isn’t the media, it isn’t Clinton-hatred or any other reason. It’s voters she has a problem with right now. The problem is they’re voting for the other guy. If Obama is a cult, it is a cult of over 10 million so far with a whole lot more to come today.

    Many of these comments are beyond stupid. If Hillary is so damn great, then she needs to go out and win. Self-pity, loony conspiracy theories about the other guy and talking about a cult of personality isn’t going to get it done.

    Paul Krugman’s piece in The Times was pathetic, whiny garbage. Obama is Nixon? Bush? Sure he is, Paul. Krugman makes himself look like a silly, bitter little man with that kind of trash.

  • Mike Howell

    Pug –

    I just read your silly little trashy post.

    I’l take NY Times economist Paul Krugman any day and apparently so do millions of readers. I guess your silly argument cuts both ways.

  • shirin

    Simon, I have stated repeatedly here that I am not an Obama supporter, and I have stated repeatedly WHY I am not an Obama supporter. What part of that led you to the conclusion that I am an Obama supporter?

  • Mike Howell

    TeakWoodKite –

    The Manchurian Candidate was a sleeper…

    Barack Hussein Obama is too up front with his love of Farakan and the Nation of Islam.

    And the guys who played the role in the movies were good looking – not geeks like Urkle Obama.

  • shirin

    Chris Vosburg, you are dead wrong again, as always. I was never an Edwards supporter. Edwards was for me the least bad option of the top three candidates, and the only one I was willing to vote for, that is all. That does not make me his supporter.

    As for your other snide comment (do you ever make any other kind?), you accused me of “helping put Bush in the White House”. Tell me something, Chris Vosburg, did my voting for a third party candidate (not Nader – contrary to what you would dearly love to believe, I have never voted for Nader) change the outcome of the election in any way at all? In fact, did all of the third party votes in California combined change the outcome? If the answer is no, then I did not “help put Bush into the White House”, and that makes you dead wrong one more time.

    And the party affiliation of the governor has exactly zero impact on whether I and all the other California third party voters “helped put Bush into the White House”, so in addition to all of your accusations and assumptions being 100% dead wrong 100% of the time, you can’t even present a remotely valid argument.

  • Cee

    Bob,

    He’s dealing with it from sites like this one, rightwing blogs and news, vicious emails and now from Krugman in the NY Times.

    He’s still winning and attracting people who won’t vote for Hillary.
    He’s also winning in states that Bill and McCain lost.

  • Mike Howell

    Gee Cee –

    Barack Hussein Obama is winning in states that will be worthless in a general election because they are RED states and he’s winning in caucus states where anybody simply signs an affadavit. Didn’t you ever wonder why it’s cheaper than a primary?

    The electoral college would win again!

    There is a real difference here. The working poor, sadly composed largley of women, who desperately require change are voting in droves for Hillary Rodham Clinton.

    The change the working poor seek is not the change of hip-hop kids or starry-eyed hero worshippers.

    It’s the change in the status quo. That Hillary Rodham Clinton is a fighter not a lover and that she will take on the powers that be and help the working poor.

    So while Barack Hussein Obama fondly recalls his time as a community organizer – he left his constituents in unheated buildings and took cash from their owners. Barack Hussein Obama chose a mansion with Rezko over integrity.

    I hope that Hillary Rodham Clinton wins because the working poor deserve a break.

  • CK

    Arthur has had a rotten several years now. But he always gives good measure in his writings.
    I was doing some reading about InfraGuard yesterday. As I understand it, secretly selected business leaders have been deputized secretly and have the authorization to shoot to kill if there should be a Bush declared national emergency. I wonder at what level in the business heirarchy this authorization stops. The VEEP level, the regional manager level, the associate assistant HRC secretary level?
    I am certain it does not extend to hourly workers or union members.

  • CK

    Krugman’s tune will change when he receives the proper whisper of a cabinet level appointment from Obama.
    Meanwhile the vaunted times puts Krugman alongside Kristol and Brooks and Dowd and the Moustache of all Wisdom.
    I guess it is a balance, Dowd despises Hillary and Bill, Krugman despises Obama, Kristol despises America, Brooks and Mr Moustache between them contain all the wisdom of George Bush and love them some flat earth theory.

  • Cee

    CK,

    I wonder the same thing. Don’t forget that church leaders in the US have been enlisted to help.

    I was just seaching for the article that I read about this. Can’t find it.

  • Cee

    Sometime,

    I saw a speech where he said he would reach out to people and try to negotiate.

    If they didn’t come around to his way of thinking they have to get out of the way.

  • Mike Howell

    How did Hillary win key city wards?

    BOSSES’ Pledges for Obama fall short:
    (Don’t you just love the Daley machine? One can hardly imagine what changes would be in store for the country with the biggest crooks in the country running the White House!)

    Clinton, Alvarez ‘were just very popular with Latinos and women’

    February 11, 2008
    BY ABDON M. PALLASCH Political Reporter/apallasch@suntimes.com
    Cook County’s Democratic ward bosses said they were backing Barack Obama for president and Northwest Side Ald. Tom Allen (38th) for state’s attorney.

    But on Tuesday, most of those same white voters on the Northwest and Southwest Sides voted for Clinton over their own senator.

    The white lakefront wards went for Obama and for Larry Suffredin in the state’s attorney race. African-American wards went for Obama and Ald. Howard Brookins in the state’s attorney race.

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/elections/787281,CST-NWS-dems11.article

  • Mike Howell

    CK –

    Why would Krugman be as corrupt as Colin Powell and Barack Hussein Obama?

    Your negative crap and stupid conspiracy slander knows no boundaries.

  • Chris Vosburg

    Shirin writes: And the party affiliation of the governor has exactly zero impact on whether I and all the other California third party voters “helped put Bush into the White House”,…

    Well, it’s supposed to humorously illustrate just how treacherously false the “solidly blue” assumption can be. Personally, I wouldn’t trust it to hold in so important a matter as the Presidency, but if you do, fine, then go right ahead and vote for Billy Jack or Christopher Walken, or whoever you’re throwing it away on this time around, and I’ll leave it to James Wolcott to sum up my feelings on this sort of “conscience voting”.

    Quoth Wolcott:

    “I have many faults and quirks, but one thing I’m not is a narcissist. My vote isn’t about Me. Who I am, how I conceive myself, how my vote positions me in the pulse of the moment. The tab I flip in the voting booth isn’t intended as a dramatic gesture to pin in my lapel like a carnation and sniff during intermission, like some Clifton Webb character.”

  • Chris Vosburg

    Shirin writes: Tell me something, Chris Vosburg, did my voting for a third party candidate (not Nader – contrary to what you would dearly love to believe, I have never voted for Nader) change the outcome of the election in any way at all? In fact, did all of the third party votes in California combined change the outcome? If the answer is no, then I did not “help put Bush into the White House”, and that makes you dead wrong one more time.

    Using the same logic then, you are as blameless as any Californian who actually cast their vote for Dubya, since the vote they cast did not result in Bush carrying the state.

    Next time, vote as if something is at stake here, like the country.

    Thanks again.

  • Shirin

    I was doing some reading about InfraGuard yesterday. As I understand it, secretly selected business leaders have been deputized secretly and have the authorization to shoot to kill if there should be a Bush declared national emergency.

    Yeah – and that program was started in 1996 – under whose watch was that? No, not BILL CLINTON!

    Extraordinary rendition, and now THIS?! Look at all the neat repression tools Bill provided for George. Wasn’t that NICE of him?

    And how likely is Hillary (or Barrie O, for that matter) to get rid of Bill’s handiwork? Not very, I am guessing. I am guessing that whoever comes along next will find those little programs of Bill’s quite, quite useful.

    This country is in serious trouble. In some ways it’s starting to make the average dictatorship look good.

  • Cee

    Trying to win dirty…again

    Hillary: Obama Is So Friendly, He Won’t Fight
    By Eric Kleefeld – February 12, 2008, 1:28AM
    During her interview tonight with ABC/The Politico, Hillary Clinton challenged Barack Obama’s conciliatory tone — arguing that sometimes you have to just drop the idea of compromise and reaching out, and get certain things done:

    “So when I hear Senator Obama talk about that, I wonder which fights he wouldn’t fight. Would he have not fought to get to a balanced budget and a surplus and help create 22 million new jobs? Would he have not fought to get assault weapons off the street and get them out of the hands of, you know, criminals and gang members?
    “You never hear the specifics. It’s all this kind of abstract, general talk about how we all need to get along.

    “I want to get along, and I have gotten along in the Senate. I will work with Republicans to find common cause whenever I can, but I will also stand my ground, because there are fights worth having.”

  • Shirin

    What rubbish! Your self-righteous ranting aside, voting for a third party candidate in a non-swing state is a completely different action than voting for the “wrong” candidate. My vote was guaranteed to have exactly zero effect on the outcome, and it had a purpose as a vote AGAINST the rotten, corrupt two-party system in this country. And I saw it at the time and see it now as voting “as if something were at stake” because this country is in serious political trouble, and one of the biggest problems is that every damned election the only viable candidates are TweedleDem and TweedleRepub.

    If I, as a voter, see that as a cause of much of this country’s ills, then voting “no” on the two party system is my duty whether self-righteous smart-asses like you appreciate that or not.

  • Cee

    Hillary won’t do anything.

    She was too busy trying to win an election than to show up and vote regarding our privacy.

    The Senate voted on the Dodd/Feingold amendment, which would have stripped retroactive immunity from the surveillance bill just now. The final tally was 31-67; crossing over to vote nay were Sens. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), Evan Bayh (D-IA), Daniel Inouye (D-HI), Tim Johnson (D-SD), Herb Kohl (D-WI), Mary Landrieu (D-LA), Claire McCaskill (D-MO), Mark Pryor (D-AR), Blanche Lincoln (D-AR), Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), Ken Salazar (D-CO), Tom Carper (D-DE), Barbara Mikulski (D-MD), Jim Webb (D-VA), Ben Nelson (D-NE), Bill Nelson (D-FL), Kent Conrad (D-ND), and Debbie Stabenow (D-MI). Update: Here’s the official tally.

    Presidential candidates Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Barack Obama (D-IL) were present for the vote – voting nay and yea, respectively.

    http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/senate_votes_for_retroactive_i.php

  • Shirin

    Given Obama’s well-documented practice of ducking difficult votes, I would not slam Hillary too hard on that one, if I were you. I do believe she has shown up to vote more than he has. :o }

  • CK

    Lieberman voted with the republicans of course, Hillary and Graham weren’t there.
    Good old MagicBulletSPectre voted with the repubs.
    18 senate seats held by people with D after their names and R in there hearts. And on every important vote these Ds somehow find that it is the R position that they must support. Oh well maybe the more better democrats can be elected in some other universe.

  • Chris Vosburg

    Shirin writes: If I, as a voter, see that as a cause of much of this country’s ills, then voting “no” on the two party system is my duty whether self-righteous smart-asses like you appreciate that or not.

    When a college student, I quit voting altogether for a while. “It only encourages them,” I muttered to myself, stung by the incomprehensible decision of the country to put that idiot Nixon back in the white house.

    Since then, I’ve realized that was selfish.

    It is, in fact, presently a two-party system, and as I pointed out to you before, merely withholding votes for either of the two in favor of a third simply discards the vote without changing the system.

    And again, as I pointed out before, if you were serious about this, you’d be devoting your energy to devising and implementing weighted voting systems, in which citizens cast a vote for not a single candidate, but a range of candidates, in order of preference.

    I don’t believe you’ve given that any thought, because you’re actually quite comfortable with the status quo: never casting a vote of consequence, therefore never to blame for the result, whatever it is.

    Rolling up the windows and slapping down the door locks when you have to ride through the bad part of town: America.

  • Shirin

    Tell you what, Chris V. You do what you think is best for you to do, and I will do what I think is best for me to do. I won’t berate you for making your own decisions based on what you think is right, and you can stop berating me for making my own decisions rather than basing my choices on your self-righteous belief that you are the one with all the right answers.

    That’s what’s gonna happen anyway, so you might just as well go along with it.

  • Chris Vosburg

    Shirin writes: Tell you what, Chris V. You do what you think is best for you to do, and I will do what I think is best for me to do. I won’t berate you for making your own decisions based on what you think is right, and you can stop berating me for making my own decisions rather than basing my choices on your self-righteous belief that you are the one with all the right answers.

    Thank you, but I’d like to examine some other offers first. Here’s one I quite like:

    Calm down, Shirin, and continue to express your opinion here in this public forum. I shall do the same, and we shall each of us do so with full foreknowledge that such expression may draw approval, laughter, criticism, scorn, or counterargument. Of such things are a fully informed democratic electorate made, darlin’.

  • TeakwoodKite

    The Manchurian Candidate was a sleeper…

    True, bottomline was he was doing the bidding of others. One should never under-estimate a geek.

  • http://360.yahoo.com/my_profile-axm76c81fqB63q6PK6wnHXwdLp0-?cq=1 Darla

    Please! The Obama Hype is a joke! What has he really “changed” since he has been in office? NOTHING! He sponsored a bunch of low risk “American Pie” bills, most of which are worthless and a waste of tax-payers dollars. He has no military experience except for “missing” votes for his Afghanistan committee. Real “change” comes through the Constitution, not rhetoric…

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