Get a Grip, Obamaramians

Your concern is noted.

Just more information from the web site leftcoaster.com writer eriposte with more troubling stuff about Obama to add to your column.

Well done DCmediagirl! It feels like Lord of the Flies to me.

Here it comes, la deluge.

People who have observed politics and more than a few presidential campaigns in their lifetime understand what’s happening now. Every percieved strength of Obamamania is now going to become a liability (Kerry=war coward redux).

Rezko will undercut the notion that he’s “a different kind of politician.”

Plagiarism charges undercut his whole “authenticity” schtike.

Michelle Obama’s gaff have set the GOP wingnuts off, and this will dominate the chattering classes for the next few news cycles.

Obama will be forced to “explain” everything instead of focus on the issues (not that he was ever any good at that). This feeds the notion he’s not ready for prime time.

Add a dollop of rabid mouth-foaming by the cultist, and kaboom—Obama=Dukkakis in a tank.

Thank god all this happened now. This gives Clinton a chance.

Of course, the screaming from wounded Obamabots will only get louder and more shrill from here on out. Unfortunately.

i am very impressed with your writing … yes, i agree with your thoughts but your ability to post cogently is even more impressive.

i’m glad you have found your way to no quarter!

terrific post! and so glad to see you sprout up here; i was a fan of your old blog and disappointed when you had to close shop.

i look forward to future contributions from you.

“The Supreme Court rejected a challenge Tuesday to the Bush administration’s domestic spying program.
…
ACLU legal director Steven R. Shapiro has said his group is in a “Catch-22″ because the government says the identities of people whose communications have been intercepted is secret. But only people who know they have been wiretapped can sue over the program, Shapiro has said.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals last year ruled against an Islamic charity that also challenged program, concluding that a key piece of evidence is protected as a state secret.

In that case, the Oregon-based U.S. arm of the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation alleged the National Security Agency illegally listened to its calls. The charity had wanted to introduce as evidence a top-secret call log it received mistakenly from the Treasury Department.

A separate lawsuit against telecommunications companies that have cooperated with the government is pending in the San Francisco-based appeals court. A U.S. district court also is examining whether the warrantless surveillance of people in the United States violates the law that regulates the wiretapping of suspected terrorists and requires the approval of a secret court.

The case is ACLU v. NSA, 07-468.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080219/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_domestic_spying

Don’t let it get to you, the Obamatons aren’t in the scheme of things, relevant.

Would you, at this point, even hire one?

I wouldn’t, the intolerance, and lack of critical thinking is appalling.

So why bother?

And they’re boring.

It’s the same as a bad relationship, a toxic relationship, at what point do you finally say, “enough?”

No doubt the hypocrisy and garbage of men like Obama must always be exposed, but the Obama/Rove acolytes are the emotionally unstable boyfriend, or girlfriend from hell, the needy histrionic personality.

And we’ve all dealt with those…

Great post. I have never succumbed to what I have heard called “the wonder of O”, and it’s kind of sad/pathetic/troubling to see it in person.

Key claim about Iraq WMD threat discredited by British document
By DAVID STRINGER
ASSOCIATED PRESS
http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/article/20080219/WIRE/802190352/1033/NEWS01

LONDON — An early version of a British dossier of prewar intelligence on Iraq did not include a key claim about weapons of mass destruction that became vital to Tony Blair’s case for war, the newly published document showed Monday.

I think it’s too late for Clinton. The Obama supporters plue the MSM plus the overwhelming support for Obama by the Left Blogostan is more than any one candidate can fight.

I voted for Hillary Clinton in the Wisconsin Primary by absentee ballot last Friday but it seems to me that the Obama momentum everyone is touting is really starting to make a big difference.

I remember back in 2004 when the son of an acquaintance was going to vote for the first time and he told me he was going to vote for George Bush. When I asked him why in hell he would do that, he responded that it was because “George Bush had his values.” When I asked what those values actually were Sonny was kinda befuddled as to how to respond. You could see that somewhere in his mind he was trying to remember what came after that particular talking point.

Now the daughter of one of my friends tells me that she’s going to vote for Obama because, “he’s the candidate who will unite the country”. She also now ends every email home from college to her mother with “yes we can”. Her mother expects her to don a yellow rope and begin selling flowers at the airport next. (FYI, her mom voted for Hillary Clinton.)

Once Clinton has been dispatched to the media’s satisfaction it will be time to begin the destruction of Obama and the sanctification of McCain.

I don’t feel hope, I feel hopeless. And no, I will not now or ever vote for Obama. I’ve held my nose and voted for people I didn’t like and didn’t much respect. But I will be double damned if I vote for someone that I perceive to be if not a misogynist then a panderer to misogynists.

Perhaps some Hillary supporters will decide to vote for Obama if he wins. But I suspect that their are a lot of women that feel like I do. What I really fear is that a lot of the older ones may decide that McCain is “their one”.

Those of you who support Obama are doing yourselves and your candidate no favors by responding to every query and criticism with ad hominem attacks.

. . . Said the woman who just slagged off the majority of Obama supporters as “blissfully unaware of what this man stands for and are happy in their ignorance.”

And while “There is no excuse – none whatsoever – for turning on Hillary supporters,” there’s apparently plenty of excuse for turning on Obama supporters, isn’t there?

Since I’ve stopped going to some sites for my reading pleasure simply because of the bias, its nice to find a site that I can agree and disagree without being pummeled.

I first noticed the tide when places like talkingpointsmemo and kos and a few other had to have a caveat at the bottom of a story saying something along the lines of ‘just because we write a pro-Hillary story doesn’t mean we are showing support for her’. I thought that was odd, but whatever. Now these places don’t even bother with that stuff, they just post anti-Hillary, pro-Obama stories. So I’m guessing they were getting hit with emails asking why they “appear” to be choosing sides, when in all reality they were just reporting.

Now I’m resigned to the fact that left blogs are not any better than the MSM when it comes to laziness and incompetence in their efforts to put forth any semblance of journalism.

Said the woman who just slagged off the majority of Obama supporters as “blissfully unaware of what this man stands for and are happy in their ignorance.”

You haven’t engaged in rational argument regarding Obama.

What is the definition of ad hominem?

Are you fond of circles?

Do you think this technique, circular logic, is workable?

It is a technique, right?

You do understand how you’re being gamed, correct?

No?

“Republican Destructo Machine”

http://www.thomaspeschak.com/kayak-great-white-sharks-/

I agree with your comments 100%. I am a strong HRC supporter but I too fear that it might be too late. The media frenzy, the fainting, the slogans are a hard act to follow.

But as a woman of “a certain Hillary age” I have come to the conclusion that McCain will be the one if Obama is nominated. There are many reasons but let’s just say he’s a fake.

By the way, someone should follow-up on Susan’s post about his background. Someone at Taylor Marsh posted an interesting piece of information about Obama’s speech in Selma last year. He said something to the effect that two people crossed the bridge in Selma and Barack Obama was born. Only problem is that he was born in 1961 and Selma was in 1965. His parents were divorced by them and he was living in Hawaii. I think this speech needs to be put up with a chronology of the young Obama’s timeline.

Just a thought.

I have been wondering how one gains standing in the couts when the “allegations” are state secrets. It seems that even when in possesion of “evidence” that is deemed inadmissable, a state secret, but is in the public domain its now you see it now you don’t. Given the history of proceeding administrations not following up on the dirty laundry left by the previous administraton, I also have to wonder if these issue will ever see day light.

The only “Change” that Obama has ever accomplished in his entire life is to “change” thousands of people who used to be Clinton supporters into a bunch of rabid, foaming at the mouth Clinton haters.

fribbles,

Michelle Obama’s gaff have set the GOP wingnuts off, and this will dominate the chattering classes for the next few news cycles.

I believe I missed this – do you have a link?

Thanks

And finally, some unsolicited advice: Enough with the fainting.

Man, do I hear ya on this.

The MSM is actually BETTER than the blogs at putting less bias in their coverage.

I’ve never seen so much HATE and so much autocracy in my life as I’ve seen at KOS.

It’s because of them, that I’m not a Democrat anymore. I don’t adopt their view of what a Democrat is (an authoritarian follower).

Excellent comment. You know, the sad part is how many of us can see that the S.S.Obama is headed for an iceberg. There seems to be nothing we can do about the cult of personality surrounding him, egged on by a media that knows that McCain will beat him in the general election. Will I vote for him in the general election? No. As Marge said, I will not vote for a misogynist or someone who panders to misogynists. That is one value I will not sacrifice for the Democratic party.

Somebody in the Democratic party should have told this guy to stand down and wait a few years. But they didn’t, and now they’re going to have a big fat mess on their hands. Angry Clinton supporters who will offer tepid support in November at best (many of us won’t vote), and the party is stuck with a candidate that the Republicans will destroy. The youth vote and the AA vote won’t save him in the general election. No caucuses to manipulate in the general, either.

McCain will not be an easy person to beat. A Clinton/Obama ticket would have had a strong chance. Oh well. I realize his supporters are so obsessed and arrogant that they think Hispanics, and rural white people, and middle aged women will all come around and start chanting to their Messiah. Sadly, that is just nuts.

We all need to get a grip, seriously. I don’t like being called a Hillbot, or being accused of shilling for Hillary, so I expect that those who support Obama don’t much like being referred to as “Obama-maniacs” or “Obamadroids.” It adds nothing to the conversation.

You get respect when you show respect, and you do it because it’s the right thing to do, and you don’t wait for the other guy to go first.

I agree that many of the Obama supporters are allowing themselves to be swept up in a movmement, instead of assessing the ability of their candidate to do what he claims he wants to do, and I am just as frustrated trying to engage Obama supporters on actual issues – but people are free to make their own decisions about what kind of supporter they want to be. And which candidate they want to support, and why.

I’ve stopped reading and commenting at a couple of blogs, because I think it’s stupid to subject myself to being ripped apart for supporting or defending HRC, for asking – politely – for Obama supporters to tell me something substantive about their candidate that I can get behind, or for pointing out the flaws in the Obama positions and arguments with reason and respect. Don’t need that, and don’t need to give traffic to blogs that support that kind of crap.

dcmedia girl

“With a few exceptions, most Obama supporters are, even at this late date, blissfully unaware of what this man stands for and are happy in their ignorance.”

Who are and where are these Obama supporters? They must be somewhere else because you, simon and Mike Howell have humiliated them pounded them into the ground called them ever name in the book and driven them all away from this site.

Congradulations…you guys have successfully taken over this site and completed the Hillary coup that Susan started.

Susan you must really be proud, you have almost singlehandedly turned NQ into a rabid pro Hillary anti Obama site.

You have successfully stifled ANY criticism of Hillary and turned Obama into nothing but a “boy” as Simon referred to him who hardly deserves a position in the Senate bathroom as an attendant saying to the mostly all white males “yes massah, no massha, you are so kind massah, thanks for the tip massah”.

Of course all you trolls including you dcmediagirl, simon and Mike Howell could give a shit about anything I have to say because god forbid I might just bring up a fact or two to discuss about REAL issues facing this country not your continual mindless racist anti-obama crap.

You want a piece of me? Well have at it here is my email address

bill564@cox.net

Fire away

Meanwhile any of the rest of you sane rational people who used to post on this blog feel free to contact me with your thoughts, maybe we should let these clowns keep NQ for themselves and we can start or go to some other blog which TRULY allows for differing viewpoints and dissent.

I’ll be waiting.

[...] NO QUARTER wrote an interesting post today on Get a Grip, ObamaramiansHere’s a quick excerpt This is my second day posting about the Obamaphenoma, and let me tell you, it’s been eye opening, exhausting and just a bit depressing. I’m concerned about a number of things. With a few exceptions, most Obama supporters are, even at this late date, blissfully unaware of what this man stands for and are happy in their ignorance.  They have forgotten that the last time we elected an inexperienced “uniter” who advocated “change”, to whom the press largely gave a free ride, we got George W. Bush [...]

I feel hopeless

Marge,

Listen to Obama

But you know in the end, don’t vote your fears. I’m stealing this line from my buddy (Massachusetts Gov.) Deval Patrick who stole a whole bunch of lines from me when he ran for the governorship, but it’s the right one, don’t vote your fears, vote your aspirations. Vote what you believe.”

So Karl Rove (yes, I know) said the fainting is normal, that he’s been to hundreds of political rallies and somebody faints and pretty much every one.

But what’s weird is how Obama makes such a weird show about it. The YouTube video of a fainter at an Obama rally and a fainter at a Hillary rally shows the contrast.

Obama has to make a big show like he’s the hero and says INTO THE MICROPHONE: “step aside everyone, give this person some room.” This would make it even worse for the fainter.

Hillary or even Bill will put the microphone to the side for a second while they attend to the fainter, get water, then they’ll resume talking once everything’s taken care of.

This primary may restore respect for the MSM and kill it for blogs, at least blogs like dailykos.

They have a lot in common, common goals, common money men.

Silly little Obamabots, they’re playing you for a fool.

I support Obama, and I support him on the issues. I like his health care plan better. I like the legislation he has been involved with in both THE Senate and in state office. He certainly is a much better candidate on gay rights issues.

What I am truly confused about is what he has said or done to earn the charge of being a misogynist? There are some ant-Hillary folks out there who genuinely are misogynists. Most Obama supporters are clearly not. That is purely an ad-hominem attack.

So I was try to gather my bullets and see where they would point. It appears that one needs to look at when Barak Obama was “not under the microscope” to get an idea of where the we may go with Obama in the drivers seat (It is questionable what the level of “slow walking” will occur if he is elected)

Tone, Truth, and the Democratic Party by Barak Obama;Fri Sep 30, 2005 at 07:38:41 AM PST

Obama: “..drive out Democrats who are interested in “appeasing” the right wing, and enforce (?)a more clearly progressive agenda. The country, finally knowing what we stand for and seeing a sharp contrast, will rally to our side and thereby usher in a new progressive era.,”

WOW!!

“It’s this non-ideological lens through which much of the country viewed Judge Roberts’ confirmation hearings.”

What is he smoking?

“How can we expect Republican moderates who are concerned about the nation’s fiscal meltdown to ignore Grover Norquist’s threats if we make similar threats to those who buck our party orthodoxy? “

Scoopy Do UH?! Help!

“We are tying them up in a straightjacket and forcing them into a conversation only with the converted. ”

Bingo! Right before my eyes it unfolds.

“It’s easy to embrace a theological absolutism; it’s harder to find the right balance between the legitimate role of faith in our lives and the demands of our civic religion.”

“civic religion” ???

“I would argue that the most powerful voices of change in the country, from Lincoln to King, have been those who can speak with the utmost conviction about the great issues of the day without ever belittling those who opposed them,”

compared to “I know that when Hillary’s feeling down….. ”
EWW.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/30/102745/165

The MSM like Matthews, and Olbermann?

They’re part of the problem, too, people like Kos just mimic their behavior, part of the now dying Limbaugh froth.

Those people, they just wake up one day and find themselves in something they never expected, their lives in ruin, because of their choices.

I mean, here, someone like Kos publicly endorses election cheating, and he thinks it’s OK, just because no one has hauled Rove’s ass to jail, publicly.

But it’s not OK, even if specifically, there is no LAW against it, and there might be, it contributes to the destabilization of the American government, the American electoral process.

And they think people are OK with it? How does a foreign national manipulate someone like Kos, think Kos even KNOWS?

Kinda stupid, talk about a lack of critical reasoning skills.

And these people think they can run a country?

They can’t.

They have Russian hand so far up their asses I swear I hear Putin every time Cheney opens his mouth.

Life is random and not deterministic.

There are more twists and random quirks which lie ahead. The only constant in this universe is random change.

These popular movements are at the mercy of events unforeseen and beyond anyone’s control. Perhaps the Prince of Platitudes will end up on the cultural midden with the pet rock and EST.

Just a month ago journalists were writing that McCain and Clinton were “emerging”.

Next month?

Beware gods with a sense of humor.

Use the Force Luke, use the Force

kenoshaMarge-

I feel the same way you do about the state of the campaign. Throw in the despicable overt racism of the Obama campaign and you would have completely capatured my thoughts on this troubled primary season. I will gladly vote for McCain though if Obama gets the nomination unless McCain puts someone like that nut case Huckabee on the ticket. If McCain does that, I will sit this one out.

Michelle Obama today said that “for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction.”

Here’s the quote that’s caught such attention and that I clipped from a link entitled “She Said What?” on John Podhoretz’s Commentary blog . I gather it bothers some people that the 44 year old Ms. Obama has found nothing about the United States of America to make her “really proud” over the last 20-25 years.

Form your own conclusions, people.

Domediagirl, what an excellent post!!! You’ve hit the nail on the head. That is why I like coming to this blog. You, Larry, and Susan are such amazing writers!!

“I would argue that the most powerful voices of change in the country, from Lincoln to King, have been those who can speak with the utmost conviction about the great issues of the day without ever belittling those who opposed them,”

Wow, what nonsense. It was nice of Lincoln not to “belittle” people, but I could have sworn a few hundred thousand lost their lives in the Civil war. That seems like a bit of a polarizing event. I don’t know, maybe the North and South we’re holding hands and singing Kumbaya?

MLK? Didn’t he face arrest, fire hoses, rocks and broken bottles? Wasn’t the whole march for civil rights, polarizing?

Isn’t nearly every positive accomplishment our nation has ever made the result of being polarized? Aren’t people supposed to stand for something so they don’t fall for anything? Isn’t dissent patriotic? Isn’t diversity a foundation of democracy?Isn’t unity and nationalism the agenda of people more like George Bush or Hitler?

You have reminded me that I was going to make an est reference in this post. Maybe next time

All I know is that I, an Obama supporter, just got called blissfully ignorant because of whom I support for the Democratic nomination (by someone who’s never met me). Does that sound like “rational argument” to you?

I’m voting for Hillary, either way.

With a few exceptions, most Obama supporters are, even at this late date, blissfully unaware of what this man stands for and are happy in their ignorance.

He stands for “Hope” just like Lincoln, FDR, and MLK. He also stands for being the best person ever to make “Change” – even more than the guy in the change booth at the local amusement park.

They have forgotten that the last time we elected an inexperienced “uniter” who advocated “change”, to whom the press largely gave a free ride, we got George W. Bush.

George W. Bush was Governor of Texas so that is not a fair comparison. I would say a fair comparison would be another junior senator with one term who started to run for President the minute she was elected.

Those of you who support Obama are doing yourselves and your candidate no favors by responding to every query and criticism with ad hominem attacks. If you think what your fellow Democrats are saying is negative, when the Republican Destructo Machine starts slicing and dicing the end result will make this primary season seem like child’s play. Stop protecting Obama like a kitten. The man is running for President, for God’s sake. The sooner he’s released into the political and journalistic wild the better for him and his campaign. Stop taking everything so goddamned personally.

Bill Clinton is the one taking this personally by playing the race card from the outset. When he did this, and repeatedly, he ruined his wife’s chances and his legacy. And if it is Hillary the scandal ridden Clinton administration will be relived in living color so be careful what you wish for.

There is no excuse – none whatsoever – for turning on Hillary supporters. Yes, the cold hard reality is that there are Democrats out there who don’t support Obama. Deal with it. Don’t turn into Hillary hating Republicans. We went through that demented horror all through the ’90s and we all complained – about the lesbian stories, the Vince Foster Was Murdered meme, The-Clintons-Are-Murders bullshit, the Mena non-story…Democrats were aghast at the depths of the hatred and how low Republicans were willing to stoop. Now it’s Democrats committing fratricide. Let’s leave that to the other side, shall we?

The Clinton Character Assassination Squad has a l-o-n-g history of destroying opponents the minute they surface. Obama was no different and every early rumor came from that source. Now that the tables are turned we see the Clinton cry-babies that see those same tactics being turned against them.

Remember Sun Tzu’s advice that when your enemy is self-destructing hang back. Please note that Republicans, who over time have utilized The Art of War and The Prince as how-to manuals, have been very quiet lately. Why hammer at Hillary when you can let the press and her fellow Democrats do it for you? While Democrats self-immolate, as they are wont to do distressingly often, Republicans win. Don’t forget that.

This was an ethical campaign until the Clintons unleashed the character assassinations against Obama and Edwards.

Cut the creepy Animal Farm bullshit. I thought we still had freedom of speech in this country. Letting anti-Obama people have their say should be a netroots no-brainer. Banning posters who have negative things to say about Obama is a douchebag move. Remember, the netroots have raked the right wing blogs over the coals because for the most part they don’t allow comments. Does the left wing blogosphere really want to muzzle free speech because those who are speaking their mind are not adherents of the One True Church? And I’m talking to YOU, Kos. What the hell is wrong with you? I respect the movement you’ve created, but turning Daily Kos into the Ministry of Truth, where only the officially sanctioned story is permitted to see the light of day, goes against your mission and the spirit of the progressive movement. Shame on you.

Very well said. Markos has anointed himself the “king-maker’ except his track record stinks. Anyone who is a high profile figure and posts his wife and kids pictures on a polarizing political blog needs to have his head checked out.

We’re going to see that age old Democratic Party adage play out one more time: “Pulling defeat from the jaws of victory.”

yttik,

That depends. There is the-other-side-is-evil, I-won’t-even-talk-to-them, and hate-hate-hate polarization where not even simple bipartisan things (like passing budget bills or addressing our crumbling infrastructure) get done. I would say that pretty much sums up our current political landscape. My way or the highway thinking and endless rounds of tit for tat are destructive and poisonous (see Romeo and Juliet). You can’t successfully govern approaching every problem with through an ideological and politically calculating perspective (see George W Bush), you have to govern with pragmatism and compromise.

I don’t care what HRC’s last name is, I don’t care what her gender or race is, I really don’t care about all the accusations of scandals involving her and her husband. On the flip side, I don’t care about BHO’s gender or race, either.

I am so beyond that.

What I do care about is HRC’s positions and opinions. Since she entered politics, I watched her join jo-mentum and the more obvious repubs in one standing ovation after another for prez dud. I watched her support or ignore prez dud’s attacks on the Bill of Rights. I watched her enable and vigorously defend dud’s war of aggression. I watched her arrogantly defend flawed decisions, saying she was deceived (is that the kind of prez we want?).

And I watched her give calculated lip service to progressive/liberal/populist/whatever values, so she could have plausible deniability for both viewpoints.

I know the Dems are doomed if HRC is all they can come up with. I’m not thrilled with BHO, but I’ll probably leave the party (after decades), if HRC is the nominee.

If HRC is the nominee, I can only hope that the ensuing 4 years of hell (either under her amoral admin or a repub one) will destroy the so-called centrist movement that has decimated the Dem party. I can only hope that the result may be a new Dem party, or a schism that produces some better choices. And I can only hope that the US might still be recognizable when her repub-lite hands or an actual repub’s hands release it.

I think many pro-Clinton people would see the bases for the misogyny charge originally in Obama’s Don Draper-like sniffing “you’re likeable, enough, Hillary” at the New Hampshire debate, followed by the “Iron My Shirts” hecklers at a Clinton rally and most recently in the she must be “feeling down” comment by Obama which some saw as veiled ridicule of the “it must be that time of month” variety.

Now one can agree or disagree as to whether these types of events really do constitute a subliminal theme of the Obama campaign (accidental or intended), but in fairness it’s a fair question and does rise above the level of merely an ad hominem attack.

Beyond the zingers, the concept I convey is prosaic, even pedestrian.

The stiff and stogy Brits knew it well. Harold Macmillan was once asked what was the greatest challenge to ever confront a statesman. He replied:

“Events, my dear boy, events.”
This road goes on forever and the party never stops.

A little hubris goes a long way. Michelle’s previous answer to, “If Obama is not nominated, would you vote for Hillary Clinton?” Michelle’s answer to Larry King, “I’d really have to think about that. I don’t know”.

Use the Farce Luke, use the Farce.

There, fixed it for ya.

The problem with the Hillary Hate is that piece of shit repugly Hillary Haters can inject their poison into the discussion and come across as Obamans. This generates more hate, back and forth, and lessens positive impacts of a blog. Some blogs use this, in my opinion, to build traffic any way they can. But it is destructive. The way to combat it is to deal with issues, then assume those who sling the antis to be piece of shit repugly trolls and deal with them accordingly, like banning them.

Why do the trolls spew the anti-Hillary stuff?

I’ve been suggesting that piece of shit repugly trolls are guiding discussion to favor Obama. Obama is currently (I believe) being investigated. Until this investigation is officially completed and Obama totally exonerated, then he is vulnerable. Assuming Obama wins the Democratic presidential nomination bush and his minions in the department of justice could indict Obama two weeks before the presidential election.

I’ve been floating this concept for a few days in various blogs, and drawn a few hateful comments, but little of substance on why it could or could not happen. There was a letter introduced that Obamans suggested ended the discussion, but there has been no official statement that investigations have ended that I know of. Does anyone have any substantive relevant knowledge to share?

Dear Z:

Please look up the name Donny McGlurkin – google it. Why on earth would a gay person support Obama over Clinton? Hillary Clinton is for civil unions because she is a realist. One step at a time. Bring the country with us, first. That was the mistake that Bill made with Don’t Ask Don’t Tell and she knows it. Speaking of DADT, she wants to end it, now! She wants to pass ENDA and federal hate crimes legislation. She has supported both of those in the past and will work to finally get them passed. She worked to defeat the Federal Marriage Amendment, fought for AIDS funding (additionally, please see all the work that Bill Clinton has done for AIDS), supported equal benefits for federal gay and lesbian employees, she was the first First Lady to march in a gay pride parade and has marched numerous times as a Senator. She secured $500,000 for a gay community center in New York to expand their education and outreach efforts.

As far as Obama’s Health Care Plan, it is not universal. By making insurance a choice, you drive up the cost for everyone. She would still leave medicare and medicaid in place for those who truly cannot afford to pay anything.

And Z, unless you are a woman, you cannot truly judge what is misogynistic or not. If you are a woman, then I will give you your opinion.

Thank you.

Hillary supporters aren’t forcing non-partisan (as it relates to the primary) blogs such as Digby’s Hullabaloo to shut down their comments because of partisan abusiveness as Obama supporters did. Hillary supporters aren’t ganging up and pushing for Obama supporters to lose their posting privileges on sites like Daily Kos. Hillary suppporters aren’t going to war with stalwart progressive voices like Krugman. Hillary supporters haven’t been defending racist language on the part of the media as Obama supporters did with Shuster’s “pimp” comment.

There is no comparison between the two camps. Until you can show me well known progressive sites where the blog owners are being seriously harassed by Clinton supporters, or where the blog owners are kicking off well-behaved Obama supporters for posting fair but critical commentary on Clinton, you got no evidence. Go ahead – tell me what progressive blogger has had to shut down comments because clinton supporters were abusing the forum. I haven’t heard of that happening and i doubt I ever will.

Or random gaffes: http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/michelle-obam-1.html

For a campaign basing its aspiration on the “Democrat For A Day” strategy, they just shot themselves in the foot. And at a very inconvenient time.

maybe it’s because they don’t teach critical thinking in school anymore. thanks, george w and no child left behind.

it’s no coincidence that this is the first generation to grow up playing first person shooter video games. they blog like they play.

See Bill, it’s easy when you look at the five phases of recovery. They’ve admitted there’s a problem, they are complying with the need to address it, now they’re into the defiance stage of fighting back against the need to change. Pretty soon Susan, Larry, and DCMediaGirl will slip into acceptance and surrender, but we have to give them time to work things out in their system.

Meanwhile, you and I will be working with the Obama team to improve this craphole that Bush has put us all into. Better than moaning about how unfair life is.

Well done, Jack. You make my point. If HRC gets nominated you won’t vote for her, you’ll leave the party, blah, blah, blah. You contribute nothing to the discussion, you try to get Obamans to copy you. You are easily defined a troll here to promote dissension. As they say, don’t let the door hit you….

I saw you comment and raise you two…
A dictator will act out of self preservation.
1) if by land; The indictment of Obama with RICO charges; Obama supporters riot. Material Law oops Martial decalred.
2) if by sea; Iran goes bye bye. Material Law oops Martial decalred. Unless McCain wins and the status quo shredder is not needed.

If you control what cards are played no need to worry about the house. I am wondering id Rezko’s testimony will contradict any depositions by high profile individuals. Always a wild card in the deck.

Larry Johnson did this country a great favor by educating us all about Valerie Plame.

In the last few weeks, though, he has called all of that into question with his base shilling for Hillary Clinton.

What is most worrisome is that these same attacks will probably be adapted by McCain.

That makes me sad. I had come to trust this blog as something that could be counted upon to explain the straight truth about the obscure labyrinths of Washington insiders.

Now it has become a vicious, hysterical attack on Obama, and his “Obameranians” (a better word, easier to say, and more insulting, no? Not a surprise that you missed it).

That’s really too bad.

Here’s link to the vid, btw…

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/49244.html

come on A if you allow someone like markos to get under your skin that much you wont make it any political party.
kos is just another democrat with an opinion albeit he does have a large megaphone. he certainly isnt any more “correct” then anyone else.
if this logic doesnt work for you … use the short version of the serenity prayer … “fuck it” … and just ignore dullards like him.

How very condescending to think that somehow climbing aboard YOUR bandwagon would give me hope. I will NEVER vote for Obama.

He is either a sexist or a panderer to sexists. There is nothing in my heart, soul or guts that would allow me to listen to Obama or any of his supporters. I listened and I didn’t like what I heard.

Shove you sanctimonious drivel! When I want a sermon, I’ll go to church.

Vee, I just can’t vote for McCain. But because I honestly cannot vote for Obama, if he is the candidate I will either write in Hillary or vote Green.

fribbles,

Did Obama and David Axelrod really think Obama would be teflon forever? However, by the time all the Rev. Wright relationship and ties to Farrakhan are added to the mix, the questions about his pro Palestine and anti Isreal advisors will not be noticed. All of Carter’s old Washington hawks in foreign policy, are hostile to Israel and his advisers are throwback’s to the failed Carter one term administration .

Along with Carter and Carterites, Obama adds Geoge Soros, donor and multibillionaire Hedge Fund maven, who is violently opposed to Israel.

The Israeli Bloc currently managed by Podhoretz
and other wingnuts enabled this war. But Carter, Zybigniew Brezinsky, and Co is not the answer. WHAT happened to OBAMA’s NEW WASHINGTON?

Hillary’s supporters also aren’t issuing death threats to people who refuse to submit to the new messiah. Obama’s supporters have graduated from merely silencing dissent online to harassment and threats of violence towards their perceived enemies. That’s beyond creepy — it’s frightening and insane. Obama needs to address this behavior before his followers get even more out of control than they already are.

I use “Obamaphile”, which I don’t think is derogatory…

I think he’s a fake too but that isn’t what I see coming so much as the arrogant, dishonest media that has had so much fun building him up will now turn on a dime and gleefully tear him to pieces. All this while touting More-of-the-same McCain as a “maverick” as a “straight-shooter” and as a “war hero”.

I may be of a certain age beyond Hillary somewhat but my memory is still good enough to recall 4 years ago when the media didn’t bother much with Kerry until after they had demolished Dean. Then once Kerry was the nominee; well as we all know all hell broke loose.

I’m a refugee from DailyKos, sickened and disturbed by the HRC bashing going on there. Likewise “The Stephanie Miller Show” which I’ve stopped listening to. I’ve been an occasional visitor here up until now. Plan to stick around. I see by the comments I’m not the only one who perceives Obama as misogynistic. I was watching one of his Wisconsin speeches on CSPAN last weekend and heard him refer to an adult female associate as his “girl”. Really set off alarm bells in my head.

The first thing I want to say is that Larry getting booted from dKos was wrong AND not in the least bit surprising considering the numerous other blunders and statements that Markos has made over the years. I guess you are no different than a DFH now, Larry. lol jk

That being said, there is some good debate going on at this site that would be worth reading but, and this is a HUGE BUT, there is way too much of the meritless and baseless arguments that could equally be applied to any candidate coming from both/all/any sides… But that seems to be going on across the left Blogosphere right now.

Being that I am simply a liberal activist (and Blogger) – and the fact that I am not a member of the Democratic party in any way shape or form – I don’t see much point in arguing for either of these moderate conservative candidates.

You all should just be happy that you aren’t fighting over who is the better candidate on the far right wingnut side of the aisle.

I am a woman, thank you very much… One who has experienced actual misogyny.

As for Donny McGlurkin, I know who he is and I know he is a homophobe. I am not an ideologue, though. I believe in coalition building. I have worked with homophobes before and will do it again on issues that we actually agree on (the environment, poverty, etc). If I take that realistic approach, I certainly am not going to hold it against Obama that he does the same.

It also has not escaped my notice that Obama talks about gay rights in front of every audience, even the ones that aren’t friendly. Hillary talks about gay rights in front of gay people. Obama also supports gay marraige and gay adoption.

I am not saying that Hillary is BAD on gay issues. I am saying Obama is better.

So “hope” and “change” are all Obama stands for? Are you aware that you just parroted a meaningless slogan that is utterly devoid of content?

I’ve been saying that Obama’s plan consists of hoping for change. My sister says all of Obama’s sentences consist of “A noun, a verb and change (or hope).” His supporters’ inability to articulate his values and policy positions proves that we’ve captured his essential lack of substance.

For some real anger over Michelle Obama’s remarks head over to abc blogger Jake Tapper’s Comments section. A shit storm is brewing.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/02/michelle-obam-1.html

Oh, sorry, I forgot to explain why I favor Obama’s healthcare plan. I think not having a mandate is a feature, not a bug. I do understand the perspective that it may make healthcare more expensive, but I just don’t believe that it is the role of government to force people to act in their own best interests. Plus, when you create a mandate, you have to put a mechanism in place for enforcing the mandate. That also adds expense, both in creating a new enforcement bureacracy and in new court cases.

Most Obama supporters clearly are misogynist. That’s one of the things that stinks so bad about this. Obama’s horridly, disgracefully sexist remark about Clinton “periodically” getting down and needing to boost herself – he should have lost 100% of female support with that nasty, vicious, misogynistic crap he dumped on our culture there. That’s as old Testament as it gets. Is he gonna send us out to live in a tent during our periods because he’s afraid we’re impure? Because the thought on display in that crack of his is at a similar level of gender and cultural awareness as 4th century BC. I think the guy is a totally uncourth barbarian because of that remark and I can’t believe it came out of Democrat. That’s like something some GOP asshole in Texas would have said about Ann Richards during her campaign for governor. And the left would have gone berserk over that comment, but Obama pisses all over women like that, and it’s (to quote Camille Paglia) an “arc of transendence”. It’s no surprise to me that a guy who says stuff like that voted against protecting the identity of sex abuse victims.

If you attribute her accomplishments to her husband’s office holding (everything she did she did because of Bill) – that’s misogyny. Obama’s remark about tea with the ambassador – misogyny or extreme ignorance. You’re likeable enough – misogyny. Complaints about her voice and laugh which were all over Daily Kos – extremely misogynistic. Obama “present” votes on abortion care issues and his subsequent lies about the reasoning for it – misogyny. The 1984 ad he lied about when he said they didn’t know the creator (his spokesperson’s roommate) – totally misogynistic.

What I know about Obama – a guy who went on job interviews with his Harvard educated wife (and by the way, she made it there on her own while he is the son of a Harvard graduate) is that he is utterly contemptuous of women. He doesn’t like them. He doesn’t respect them. And he has encouraged as much misogyny as possible in his supporters – most of whom just aren’t sharp enought to realize they were doing.

I remember this particularly idiotic diary at Kos wherein a female attorney posted that Hillary had done nothing in her life (outside of her relationship with Bill) that her girlfriends hadn’t done, and therefor all her girlfriends were qualified to run for president as well. Now, in the girl’s way of thinking, any project Hillary worked on while Bill was governor or president is not something that was experience that she count as her own. She didn’t know, of course, that Clinton was assigned to the Watergate panel nor that Jimmy Carter had appointed her to head Legal Services, nor that her relationship and Board presence for The Children’s Defense Fund pre-dated her marriage and Bill’s subsequent office in Arkansas. That’s misogyny even if it’s coming from a woman. And no one in that campaign has had the minimum IQ necessary to tell the thugs supporting Obama that that kind of rhetoric is inappropriate coming out of Dems – especially about another Dem.

No, Hillary doesn’t attack Obama because she “periodically” gets down and needs to boost her appeal. She attacks Obama because they are both running for the most powerful office in the world, and that is what candidate’s do.

I won’t vote for Obama or McCain. Women are essential to Democratic wins, and there are a lot of us who don’t see Obama as being better than McCain. I’d just as soon have a Pub in office and have a chance at winning with a qualified candidate in 12.

This article is ridiculous. Watch where you guys are chucking those stones around your glass houses.

Keep your eye on the prize, people- Hillary-I-cant-be-bothered-to-vote-on-FISA and Obama-all options-on-the-table are both borderline unelectable. The only thing that makes EITHER of them possibly electable is that the Republicans have proven themselves to be complete incompetent fascist scumbag hypocrites and are so far behind the rest of the country on the economy and the war.

This kind of immature attack, namecalling Obama supporters isn’t going to help Hillary.

This is the ONLY chance Republicans have- that the Progressives fall into a civil war. I hate to see this shit on No Quarter, from people who have seen firsthand just how bad the Repubs are, and what lengths they will go to. Hillary isn’t some super liberal, as you well know. Neither is Obama. But both are better than the alternative. The more attack posts there are, like this, the closer we are to having McCain as a President. Please, PLEASE focus on the positives on Hillary, if you can, and refrain from attacking the Democrats who have thrown their support to Obama.

Personally, my vote was for Edwards, Gravel, Kucinich or Richardson, ANYONE but these two we are left with- but, they are what we are left with. If the only “support” you can dredge up for your candidate is these attacks – then you will end up helping another piece of shit Republican get elected.

Ms. O stepped in it big time. She has been saying some dodgy stuff for quite a while but has always managed to fly under the radar. Now she has finally let her mouth dig a hole that Barry will have a hard time climbing out of.

If they address the controversy at all, it will probably be by either dismissing the reaction or relating her comment to race. You and I are Black, so we might more readily see where she’s coming from. In fact, I see her remarks as simply an extension of her other race-based comments, such as that Black people would eventually have to wake up and vote for Barack, etc. However, as a woman who’s running for First Lady, Michelle Obama should damn well know that she can’t say crap like that without calling down the wrath of plenty of Americans. Her arrogance and sense of entitlement didn’t allow her to see how damaging her words could be.

Just words….where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah, Deval Patrick.

I was intentionally being facetious.

But Democrats are buying into this and voting for him. What does that say about Democrat voters?

I do think Hillary has more experience but not nearly as much as she claims.

But the basis of her campaign is on her husband’s administration. Based on that she will get hammered in a general election when the country is reminded about the scandals and incompetencies.

As I said, the Democratic Party is once again pulling defeat from the jaws of victory by passing over Biden, Dodd, and Richardson.

Lorelynn,

Who you are you kidding? If Krugman didn’t support Clinton this site and others would be all over him.
Now stop crying.

Well, duh! Do you really think the Dems are driving this animosity? Just look at the filibuster situation – when Dems were the minority, filibustering was considered a terribly destructive thing to do and the media and the Republicans howled in rage whenever Dems threatened to do it. Now that Pubs are the minority, we have a record breaking number of filibusters every years. And all they have to is say they’re going to filibuster, and Dems let them have their way.

Grover Norquist has described bi-partisanship as “date rape”. You have to have someone willing to fight the Republicans to a stand still if you want to get anything done. Obama is telling you he is going to prize getting along with Republicans more than actually accomplishing a progressive agenda, because Republicans are primarily interested in making sure Democratic president don’t get to do anything that makes voters regard the Dems as the party that has their best interest at heart. Pubs learned a lot from FDR and they don’t want any Democrat making genuine progress like that again if they can help it.

Significant

They already are used by McCain.
McCain AND CLINTON were both attacking Obama on the same silly issue yesterday.
His trophy wife Cindy has gotten into the act started here a few days ago by attacking Michelle Obama.

Great job Clinton surrogates.

Z:

Doesn’t Obama’s health care plan does have mandates for children? I am no economist but I would think that a partially mandated system could make health care even less affordable for families.

I also view the mandate issue more as a right than a burden. We will all need health care at some point and I think it is easier to regulate a system that we have to opt-in to than one than one that we don’t. I’m sure there are people who could argue this far better than myself.

Where did you get the information about Obama supporting gay marriages? Every source I’ve seen has him supporting civil unions and NOT supporting gay marriage (just like Clinton).

oh go to hell. to say something like “most obama supporters are misogynst” is the same as saying “most hillary supporters are racist”, equally stupid in either case.

for all the arrogance the web log authors have towards obama supporters, there sure are some stupid, stupid people here backing clinton.

Exactly, leave him as my only option, and I have no option. I’ve checked his record, its a non-thing.

It is a big sand box. Salutations.

Stephanie Miller tossed her cookies this am when a caller brought up Obama’s relationship with his church and Louis F. Hands over ears “yelling” and she dumped the caller. How progressive of her I thought. I changed the station. I would very much enjoy hearing both sides when it done based on the “evidence”. Unfortunately it is a court of MSM opinion and ratings driven. The media has been doing flash polls and when ever the numbers are more than a 10 point spread it mysteriously closes up. Like a google bomb.
I understand you and others were running from Kos in tears. Hope you did not shortout any routers on your way over …LOL

It is a big sandbox..Salutations

female associate as his “girl”
Misogynist term of controlling endearment. It goes down hill from there.

I am curious as a refugee; were you “running” to NQ in tears as some one here recently suggested? If true I hope you did not short out any routers on way over but I’m glad you made it. LOL

Great – lots of sites don’t support Clinton. Show me one where Clinton supporters have banned people for simply being pro-Obama. Show me one established, progressive blogger who has had to shut down comments because of abuse from Clinton supporters.

Hint – it hasn’t happened. The only people engaging in that kind of thuggery are Obama supporters. There is a huge difference between the two. Clinton supporters have behaved as I expect Dems to behave. Obama supporters have behaved like Bush supporters.

Go ahead – tell me, which blogger has had to shut down comments because of Clinton supporters? Name three, and you’ll begin to be able to make your case. Without it, you’re just one more Obama supporter unwilling to acknowledge what an ugly, misogynistic, anti-progressive campaign your messiah has unleashed.

Except there is no evidence of Hillary supporters being racist. There just isn’t. you don’t see Hillary saying that Obama lost because kinda lazy, and needed to go have a few beers with his friends rather than campaign. That would be racist. As overtly racist as obama’s crack about Hillary periodically getting down is misogynisic.

You’re candidate is clearly contemptuous of women. he’s engaged in misogynistic rhetoric repeatedly, and has encouraged his supporters to as well. That “tea with ambassadors” crack he made – ignoring the volumes that have been written about Hillary’s prominent and distinguished role in the policy apparatus of the first Clinton administration.

Obama is clearly misogynist. There’s no getting around that.

Wow, I had never thought of that. I don’t think you can hide a prosecutorial investigation though, can you? I don’t know.

anyway, people forget that Madison Guaranty – the S&L at the center of the White Water investigation – had been thoroughly and formerly examined by federal prosecutors with the Resolution Trust and had been given a clean bill of health by the time Bill was running for office. That didn’t stop Pubs from demanding a special prosecutor – the first of which, a Republican by the name of Fiske, cleared the Clintons as well. When Fiske failed to find any evidence of malfeasance whatsoever, Ken Starr was appointed to the task. We know what happned from there.

Obama’s home transaction hasn’t been investigated even once by anyone. The Pubs are gonna have a field day with this.

Sometimes, I wonder if Rove left the White House to run Obama’s campaign. The timing is kinda creepy.

It’s no surprise to me that a guy who says stuff like that voted against protecting the identity of sex abuse victims.

Was this vote based on a constitutional right of the accused or some other reason?
Illionois State senate bill Number?

Lorelynn:Thanks in advance for any clarification

I think those who want unity so we can govern effectively, need to rethink that, perhaps even take a look at the Republicans. They walk out in protest, they filibuster. And they get what they want. Over and over again.

We could also take a lesson from Bill Clinton. Most of his presidency was spent with a Republican dominated congress. I may not agree with everything he managed to accomplish, but by golly he got it done. Apparently unity wasn’t the strategy he used since they tried to impeach him. I don’t remember anybody singing Kumbaya with President Clinton.

That’s his excuse, of course, The last refuge of the scoundrel is always patriotism, and considering what a misogynistic campaign he’s run, I’m not buying it. The guy clearly has huge issues with women.

“tea with ambassadors” crack he made

Oh, great, now Obama is dissing the British?

What, is he saying only effeminate men drink tea?

What kind of moron thinks like that?

And no one in that campaign has had the minimum IQ necessary to tell the thugs supporting Obama that that kind of rhetoric is inappropriate coming out of Dems – especially about another Dem.

You mean democrats weren’t telling Obama’s crew to cease and desist, re racism and sexism?

That is untrue.

And sometimes it’s simply a matter of giving your enemy enough rope.

Someone else on another blog made the point Hillary presents facts, and lets democrats decide for themselves, THINK for themselves, in regard to analyzing the actions and motives of another.

I think this is true.

It’s up to the Republicans to smear Obama, and they will, it’s starting, already.

But I like Hillary’s approach, let me think for myself, I’m smart, I can do this, I don’t need to hear Rush, or Randi Rhodes say, blathering on about nonsense, preaching to their choir.

We can do better than to bog down in petty, internecine bickering, this country has real problems to face, and a world to help lead.

I have no respect for lying, UNCIVIL, republicans, and no respect for lying, brainless, pugilistic Obamabots, neither are qualified to lead. “Bait and switch” is not a substitute for astute foreign policy.

It’s funny. I’ve been proud of this country my entire life. I am less proud of this country right now than ever before. I’m pretty ashamed of the behavior of my government over the last few years, though.

So, I have a problem with Mrs. Obama suddenly finding pride in this country right when we are kind of at our worst. She says it’s not only because of her husbands success. Well, why then? Is it because we are now in an illegal war? Is it because we are now free to torture? Is it because of the Military Commissions Act? The Patriot Act? FISA? The economy? Healthcare? Homeless veterans? I mean tell us what’s so wonderful right now, other than your husband is running for President.

She was never proud before? I think we’ve been way better in the past than we are right now. The nineties for instance were way better for me and for most of us. She might not want to bother mentioning that era.

What have we done that is so RIGHT lately? Because I am in a real crisis searching for a reason to believe in the greatness of my country right now. I have this heartache that overcomes me every time I think of what my country has become.

Just because her husband is running for president doesn’t really make everything peachy all of a sudden. We are in the middle of a Constitutional Crisis for god’s sake. Give me a break.

@Lorelynn
The current administration has a proven track record, when it comes to the Justice Department of manipulation. Depending on what force is required to jam up Senator Obama, if he is the nominee, I would not be surprised if “they” will take a shot and indict the “ham sandwich” even if it is for distraction only and requires Barak Obama to on the defensive; later only to be pardoned for doing so. Considering what is at stake for the Rethugs in terms of “criminality exposed” down the road, it is not to much of a tin foil hat and would be a “Red Team” scenario I would run if was a rethug.
It may be said by some that Obama’s house deal was technically legal. The point these same folks won’t consider is that leagal transactions are often used to hide illegal gains from other transactions. Fitzgerald made Rove “clarify” Grand Jury testimony 5 times. I know he is well aware of most Rezko’s real estate “development” and a 20 year associate of his should be worried. I would be. Then again it would not be the first time I was proven wrong, but has Fitzgerald been when there is no insentive to throw sand in his eyes.

Sorry if my typing skills make it appear like I have been at the table to long with all those free drinks.

I am more concerned about the so-called “experienced” candidate who has blown $100 million on her campaign so far and not in a winning situation, the so-called “experienced” one who chose people to run her campaign based on loyalty instead of competence (does that remind us of someone?), and the so-called “experienced” one unable to strategically manage her campaign.

At this point, give me the “inexperienced” one who has a sound campaign and sound staff, give me the “inexperienced” one managing it so strategically that the “experienced” one doesn’t know how to campaign against him, and give me the “inexperienced” one who has managed his money well that he is still bringing in millions everyday and campaign into the general election. This is the sign of sound leadership…not just “hope and change”. Isn’t it time you realize to back the candidate that will win the White House?

Comparing Obama to George Bush is really low. There’s a difference between no experience and no brains. Obama has more brains in his little finger than Bush has in his empty head. It’s a shame that the one of the two Democrats that are running employs the tactics that the Republicans pulled on us. This is what will be the undoing of Hillary. People want something totally different from their candidate. Unfortunately Hillary planned her campaign with the idea that she would be the annointed after Super Tuesday. They did not and maybe still do not understand the power of Obama and what he means to those of us that are tired of old party plans. Sometimes change is really about change! I’ve noticed how Hillary picks up on themes from his campaign. For awhile it was “I will do”, etc. and now I’m hearing “We” from her. Then it was change….

The unpleasant comments from Hillary supporters remind me of those in power now. You’re either with us or against us. I’m very unhappy that some of my heroes have joined her camp and have attacked Obama. Joe Wilson, Larry Johnson and others.

I wish this thing was done and over. We need to concentrate on beating John McCain, not each other. All the polls give Obama the win over McCain, and the opposite for Hillary and McCain. I don’t believe 100% in polls, but they are right a lot of the time. We should focus on who can beat McCain. After Hillary’s done beating up Obama he will be plenty experienced to take on the right wing machine.

Lady “Melissa”, How dare you come on this hollow Clintoniac ground and speak truth to propaganda? Do you not realize how vindictive lemmings can be if you ruffle their feathers?
And then there are these wise words of a reporter, heretofore endorsed by these same suspects.

consortiumnews.com

Clintons Plumb Absurd Depths

By Robert Parry
February 19, 2008

Like the Bushes, the Clintons seem to believe they have some special entitlement to the White House, and thus whatever they do to get there is justified. The two ruling families function with a monarchical air that is unique – or foreign – to the American experience.

George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush have enjoyed wearing baseball caps emblazoned with “41” and “43” respectively, signifying their numerical claims on the U.S. presidency. It is still not known what articles of clothing the Clintons might embroider with “42” and “44.”

But like the Bushes, who bullied their way back into the White House by shutting down vote-counting in Florida in December 2000, the Clintons also seem to view their claim on the presidency as a right. Any serious challenger must be treated as a pretender guilty of the crime of insolence.

So, even as Hillary Clinton’s cornerstone argument – her “ready on Day One” superior management skills – has crumbled amid the wreckage of her inept campaign, she sends her surrogates out to attack Barack Obama over trivial matters, like whether he adopted a rhetorical argument that his friend, Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick, once used.

Though politicians often borrow phrases – and policies – from one another, the Clinton campaign accused Obama of “plagiarism,” an over-the-top attack on his character. It didn’t seem to matter that Obama and Patrick had discussed the use of the phrasing and that the Massachusetts governor – an Obama campaign co-chair – wasn’t complaining.

Nor did it seem to matter that the substance of the Obama/Patrick argument was correct – that inspiring words can be crucial in rallying citizens in a democracy to join in an important cause or to overcome entrenched interests.

In her recent stump speeches, Hillary Clinton has demeaned the power of words to put down Obama, who clearly has an oratorical advantage. She said: “There’s a difference between speeches and solutions, between talk and action. I was raised to believe that actions speak louder than words.”

Responding to that argument in a speech in Milwaukee on Feb. 16, Obama said, “Don’t tell me words don’t matter. ‘I have a dream.’ Just words? ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal.’ Just words? ‘We have nothing to fear but fear itself.’ Just words? Just speeches?”

In a way, of course, Clinton is right. Her recent action – dispatching her spokesmen to attack Obama’s character over trivial issues – does speak volumes. It underscores that the Clintons are prepared to sink to any depth and create bitter divisions within the electorate to secure what they regard as their entitlement, the presidency of the United States.

[For more on this topic, see the Washington Post, Feb. 19, 2008, or Consortiumnews.com’s “How Far Will the Clintons Go?” and “The Clinton Audacity.”]

Teak,

Others have said it besides me?

Good Lord! It started with that mournful why I had to leave Kos post.

Now people are hopeless, sad and who knows what else.

This may make me cry. NOT.

We have a mandated healthcare plan in this country. It is called Medicare and it works pretty well. I would gladly pay higher taxes and escape the much higher rates charged by insurance companies for which I get nothing because I cannot afford the deductible. Every American ctizen has a right to affordable healthcare.

In addition Obama has signaled his intention to put healthcare on the backburner by signing on Jim Cooper to advise him. That man worked overtime to derail universal healthcare in the 90s. Those Harry and Louise ads don’t inspire much confidence in Obama’s intenitions with regard to healthcare either.

If we do not have mandates, there will be no healthcare reform. It will fail.

Hillary is so desparate at this point she grasps at straws like this plagiarism distraction. The funny part she has taken lines from Bill when he ran for President, but that doesn’t matter. LOL

A candidate that resorts to these types of tactics has lost her way.

Air America’s hosts- except for Tom Hartmann- spent the day frantically repeating to the audience ad nauseum that “Wisconsin is an open primary! Republicans can vote in the Democratic primary in Wisconsin! So can Independents! Wisconsin has same-day registration! Just go and say you want to vote and you can sign up and vote!”

The obvious message: “Republicans, Independents, people who normally don’t give a damn: Go out and vote for Obama! Just do it! We know you aren’t Democrats and wouldnt vote for a Democrat for President if he was the last guy on Earth, just go vote for Obama this once! DO IT!”

I think this thing is just about done. Get ready for the war in Iran under President McCain. Thanks, everybody.

Our parents gave us McGovern. Our children are giving us Obama.

Mrs. Obama said this TWICE — it wasn’t a mistake.

People who watch tv said that O’Reilly played the two different clips.

Seems like Mrs. Obama arrogance might be a problem for the Obama camp.

Mrs. Obama is using code for the base:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/2/19/82614/9703

yellowdem1129 writes: “What we have learned over this year is that hope is making a comeback. It is making a comeback. And let me tell you something — for the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. And I have been desperate to see our country moving in that direction and just not feeling so alone in my frustration and disappointment. I’ve seen people who are hungry to be unified around some basic common issues, and it’s made me proud.”

I’m in the black community. I know the racial games that are played each election cycle. This is shameful in 2008, that such a powerful group would emotionally blackmail voters and politicians into accepting someone so unqualified.

Periodically is misogynist? Do you have any idea how absolutely insane that sounds? As a woman mathematician and scientist I have had to deal with REAL sexism. Men saying I couldn’t be successful or that I wasn’t smart enough to succeed at what I now do for a living. I had to deal with a manager grabbing my backside when I was working my way through college. And you think PERIODICALLY is misogynistic? Great. You have just given the REAL misogynists ammo they can use to belittle the experience of actual sexism. With friends like this…

That being said.. Sure there are Kos folks that really are misogynistic. They have made clearly inappropriate statements. Nothing I have read of what Obama has actually said, nothing I have heard him actually say, in any way encourages misogynistic behavior. He clearly loves and respects his strong, accomplished, intelligent wife.

Also, as far as I am concerned, criticism of Hillary’s white house experience is valid. What I know she directly worked on was the healthcare plan, and that was a flop which she didn’t handle very diplomatically. As for the rest, I don’t know what she directly worked on! She’s running, in large part, on her white house experience. It isn’t misogynistic to ask for specifics, and to criticize a lack of them.

What she is not going to Vote? or is she going to vote for McCain?
I be happy to grant her the status of “newbie” to campagning, even though it would not even be close to the benefit of dought. I would be happy to grant her being on Larry King can be intimidating, National TV and All…but now “I’d really have to think about that. I don’t know”. mmmmm

Voting for the nominee of the Party regardless, even if you don’t mean it; in her case just exposes a mind set that says “FIND THAT MAN!”
(Translation = BUY THAT HOUSE!)

Hillary beating up on Obama..??

I don;t think so..if anyone Has been Beaten Up..Knows anything about Being beat…Knows anything about Sexism and Diuscrimination..Its Hillary Clinton..

So what…She’s in a Campaign for President..Its a Fight for the Nomination..and for telling the American People why Sheis the Most ABLE and Qualified..for the Job…With a BIG RESUME..and Complete Vetting to back it Up..to knowing..as She rightfully says..that She will be Able to Step into the Whitwe House on DAY ONE..and be Prepared for the
Job..and have the Staff and Cabinet to Do the JOB..

EXPERIENCED…QUALIFED..

All we know about Obama is that he is a Good Talker..
and can stir people up Emotionally like any good Baptist Preacher..I don’t mind that..If ssomeone in the Democrat Party can help start a Revival..good for them..

Campaigning is ofter referred to as a FIGHT..

There is reason for Hillary to be SUBMISSIVE to Obama…Why shouls She..Because he’s a “MAN”..??

An Obama supporter wrote a letter to the Editor Criticising Our Two United States Senators and My District U.S. Congressman.. for Continuing to support and endorse Hillary Clinton..because Obama won our State in Delegates..

Thats like the McCain People telling Huckabee to GET OUT..Because its Half Time and the Media Favorites and Sportscaster Favorite Team is ahead anyhow..and its obvious who is gonna Win..so the Losing Team can go home..and we will just sit here and talk about the Winning Tam during the second half so we can still Advertise…and get the Sponsors Money..see Ya at the Super Bowl…

If He makes it to the National Conventionand pass’s being VETTED by them..I think he might may a Good Vice President..or hold some other Cabinent Position..and get some EXPERIENCE..

So when its His time to Be President He will have some EXPERIENCE..and his Political Mentor will be HILLARY CLINTON… The First and Distinguished Woman President of the United States of America..

Lady Liberty is getting kinda of tired and Lonely and could use some Help..Another Womans Touch..

I think That would be Nice..its about time..

Thats My Dream..My Hope..Lets make it happen..

E. PLURUBUS UNUM…

American History…and….American Destiny..

When Our Nation Started..When Its Constitution was written..there was wide spread Discrimination and Sexism..

Our Constitution was Written with a Vision of the Future…and Freedom…and Equality..and with a burden on the GOVERNMENT..to be FAIR and JUST..

The time for that Freedom is NOW..for that JUSTICE to Be Now.. For That EQUALITY to Be Now..

A Time for Good government..Of ther People..By the People and FOR the PEOPLE..a Government of PUIBLIC SERVANTS..

For the FIRST Time..in a Long Time..

I sayeth again:

Snake Pliskin in 2008!

Commissioner Hauk: Snake, the President has gone down!

Snake Pliskin: President of what?

I managed to read approx 1/2 the comments, and stopped at Bill’s.

Whew.

A couple of days ago, I made my 1st and, until now, only post on this site. And, why did I come here? Because I thought I was going insane over at huffingtonpost…I mean, WHO would have thought that, what I considered reasonable and well-informed, regulars would…I’m not even sure how to put it…be so Rovian?…act so immature? And the newbies!…they, put simply, freak me out.

I visited Larry’s blog at HuffPo – relegated to the archives in short order I noticed (despite comments pending) – where I received a hostile reply (“you obviously haven’t bought a house before…”, followed by a mini-lecture on the art of major purchasing) from an Obama supporter – on a post of mine that was aiming to correct a Hillary supporter! When I provided the quote and link to support my assertion, the response was the now-predictable “so what?…but the Clintons..”.

I can’t even make sense of anything over there anymore. How can they – some the regulars – turn so vile toward others. Some of them are on each other’s fan lists, fer chrissakes. How can the Obama supporters defend sexism and scream racism at every turn? One poor guy today – who I’ve NEVER seen even hint at anything racist – had to only comment (politely) that he sensed some arrogance in Michelle Obama. First reply ? An accusation of racism.

Huffington picked their candidate, and most everyone there realized it long ago. Fine, but the decline in discourse…with the overly-agressive behaviour on the part of Obama supporters… has made it all but impossible for a Hillary supporter, OR NEUTRAL PERSON, to voice an opinion or provide facts without being attacked. And that’s a damn fact.

There is no mutual respect. At all.

Jimbo – That oft-heard threat goes in both directions though, doesn’t it? I can’t believe how many Hillary supporters have made the same threat. In fact, I seem to recall that only yesterday Larry said that he will only vote for Hillary. If Obama is nominated he won’t vote for him. A number of other Hillary supporters on this blog made the same threat. I guess they really like the idea of more war, more torture, more corruption, more illegal spying on Americans and more economic disaster. Because that is what we will all get with a McCain presidency.

Goody. The Democrats’ circle firing squad is in full operation. Not that Larry is Democrat, but you get my drift.

As an Edwards supporter I made the pledge months ago that I will vote for whichever Democrat becomes the nominee. But, clearly, I’m in the minority.

This place has become like all the other places around the web that have turned into nothing more than zealous — and sometimes vicious — campaign sites.

“Of course all you trolls including you dcmediagirl, simon and Mike Howell could give a shit about anything I have to say because god forbid I might just bring up a fact or two to discuss about REAL issues facing this country not your continual mindless racist anti-obama crap.”

First up, I’ll have what he’s having. Double, straight-up.

Am I alone in wondering if this wee wan is a bit full of himself?

Boyo, it really isn’t about you.

hmmm…correction: There is no reciprocated respect shown by the pro-Obamas. That’s what I meant.

“I watched her join jo-mentum and the more obvious repubs in one standing ovation after another for prez dud” ……..yada yada yada

Clinton votes with the Democrats 97.1% of the time.
Obama votes with the Democrats 95.5% of the time.

One would be hard pressed to find a difference of any statistical significance.

If you ever were a Democrat, your more rational choice would be to grit your teeth, vote for your party’s candidate but put your real concentration on supporting the Senate races. The Senate advises and consents, helping shape the Executive Branch’s personnel and thereby it’s policies. This would be a counterweight to the Evil DLC Empire if you are an Obama supporter or a vital supply of responsible adults if you are a Clinton supporter.

The spiteful alternative of voting for McCain just means more decades of deficit spending. Your least worse spiteful choice would be to effectively abstain and vote for Nader.

You’re changing your story now. First you wrote, “Most Obama supporters clearly are misogynist”, then when you were called out on it you dialed it back to, “Obama is clearly misogynist”.

I think Obama is a rude, unthinking, unevolved man. But the word “misogynist” means someone who hates women, not someone who is rude to women.

Being over-the-top doesn’t help you mkae your case.

I can see that most of you have not observed the fact that there are prophasys in play here and the name Barack Hussane Obama is not only very certainly very Muslum, but very entwined with the predictions of many prophets, Nostradomas being one of many about the anti-Christ. Look this up if you dont believe me. A demonic being would have many blindly following his every word and vote him into office to bring the predicted end of the world as we know it. Why doesn’t anyone including Hillery, Bring the american public to the possibility of this? this is beyond me why no one not even the media has noticed the connection to these prophesys. I will say one thing I felt this even before I found the facts dont believe blindly look it up for yourself. And if Obama gets the Democratic nomination I’m voting Republican whoever that candidate turns out to be. I’m all for Hillery always have been

this is beyond me why no one not even the media has noticed the connection to these prophesys

Kate, respectfully…What channel ?

Cal Gal:

Your comment encapsulates perfectly what has been said ad nauseum about Obama supporters:

1. Criticize the other Democratic candidate by saying you want “change” but offer no specifics as to what that “change” entails
2. Present the false premise that Hillary Clinton expected to be “anointed” but criticize her for campaigning hard
3. Robotically repeat the word “change”
4. Offer no specifics about Obama’s policies or stand on issues
5. Accuse Clinton supporters of being authoritarian and/or acting like Republicans, when the truth is that it’s Obama supporters who are rigid and intolerant of any opposing views and willing to smear Hillary Clinton with the same brush Republicans used in the ’90s.
6. Claim that Obama has been sufficiently vetted and bloodied in the primary process to face the Republican opposition research shredder.

Dream on.

I was going to add this blog to my list of regulars, but I didn’t realize it was reserved for pro-HRC and anti-BHO rhetoric. I should have read more carefully; name-calling like “troll” and phrases like “yada yada yada”, in place of intelligent conversation, are a warning sign that this isn’t a place for discourse.

I have voted Dem since I started voting, decades ago. I was an Edwards supporter in this fight. His early departure has made me wonder about the future of the party.

But you don’t have to believe that. It doesn’t even matter. I attempted to engage in a discussion of HRC’s record (her numerical voting record, which Smilin’ Jim pointed out, is only a fraction of the story). Also of note are her non-votes (on important issues like FISA, abortion, war funding, and energy) and her “yes” votes for appointees like Negroponte, Chertoff, and Rice.

And the fact that she’s followed the Dem recommendation doesn’t even excuse her record, since Reed-Pelosi have been startlingly hesitant to exercise true progressive muscle (progressives have to occasionally vote AGAINST the Dem party position to protect us from prez dud’s police state).

It’s pretty clear that the public is more interested in vindictive attacks and sensational discussions. The US won’t get good leaders if the discussion is about candidate’s wives.

I’m saddened that people jump to the conclusion that a disgruntled progressive would switch to voting for a repub. Far from it. If the DLC is the future of the Dems, I hope to help create a new Dem party, one that supports the progressive and liberal values that the DLC has forsaken.

My main point was that the road to that brighter future may require a lot more painful years of repub and repub-lite rule than it could if the Dem party would reform now. But perhaps great pain is required for great reform, like the populist anger from the Mississippi floods (which helped trigger the New Deal). Four more years of conservative rule will certainly bring great pain.

I’m not sure Nader and/or the Green party are the answer, but giving money and voting for Dems doesn’t appear to be the way to get things changed anymore.

Good luck to you all. Hope your caustic majority find a dictionary, grammar book, and some respect for the opinions of others. Feel free to respond with “troll” and “yada” comments. It will waste your like-minded commenter’s time and probably won’t reach me, since I’ve all but given up on you.

It is possible that you are in too much pain to effectively listen but perhaps my take on the DLC will soothe others.

Senator Bill Bradley once cogently described the Republican party on the Charlie Rose Show as a pyramid. Following the analysis of the Powell Memorandum, it is made up a base of funding corporations and foundations — fat cats, if you will. The next layer is made up of university chairs and think tanks that have been created by the fat cats. The next layer is made up of party operatives and spin doctors. At the apex of the pyramid is the Presidential candidate.

Following the example of the Roman Republic post-Hannibal, they realized that they needed a machine that could elect anybody. And they just have, twice, and possibly a third time.

Bradley went on to describe the Democrat party as a similar pyramid, only in the case of the Democrats, the pyramid is balanced on it’s point. The post-JFK Democrats rely on a charismatic candidate to hold up the entire structure. That is why they have lost so spectacularly over the years. (The concluding irony is that Bradley now supports the charismatic candidate)

The DLC was created to mimic the Republican machine. It recognized that Americans are as materialistic and self-absorbed as Carter told them they were and that corporate interests had captured the opinion-making apparatus as well as the funding end of the political process. It recognized that it had to wage the Long War to foster institutions that would countervail the corporate structures that now control us. Thus the best tactic is to support centrist candidates that this country would buy into, not recoil from, and that the corporate interests could not bury like McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis.

[...] NO QUARTER had a pretty good blog post. Definitely worth your time. Here is a small excerpt: This is my second day posting about the Obamaphenoma, and let me tell you, it’s been eye opening, exhausting and just a bit depressing. I’m concerned about a number of things. With a few exceptions, most Obama supporters are, even at this late date, blissfully unaware of what this man stands for and are happy in their ignorance. They have forgotten that the last time we elected an inexperienced “uniter” who advocated “change”, to whom the press largely gave a free ride, we got George W. Bush. [...]