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Obama Throws His Grandmother From The Train [Updated]

UPDATE: Many new readers here may not have seen this February 2008 story, and will want to read it in full for its essential background on the two books by Sen. Obama: “Obama’s Books: Composite Characters, False Memories.”
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barak-and-grandparents-small.jpgNumerous writers today are upset that Barack Obama cheaply tried to compare his grandmother — who sacrificed so much to help him go to the best schools — with the racist, anti-American Jeremiah Wright. And our own Fleaflicker began the discussion last night in his clever, but troubling, “Throw Momma From the Train.”

throwgrandmafromthebsexpress2.jpgSteve Sailer writes a particularly poignant post with quotes from Obama’s own book on incidents with his grandmother — and it’s a must-read that will leave you choked with rage at Obama and sorrow for his grandmother who did so much for him. (Yes, the amusing poster, to your right, is from Sailer’s blog.) Again, his full post is a must-read, but here’s an excerpt:

[A]ccording to Obama’s 1995 book, it is not at all true that she “once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street.” Instead, she once confessed her fear of one aggressive black beggar who didn’t pass by her but instead confronted her, demanded money, and then gave her — an intelligent, level-headed woman who had worked her way up to a mid-level corporate management position — good reason to believe he would have violently mugged her if her bus hadn’t pulled up.

If this was some doofus politician like Bush or Biden who retold the story in a misleading fashion, you might view it as just their usual struggle with using the English language to get across what they really kind of, sort of mean. But Obama is so superb with words that it’s perfectly reasonable to hold him accountable for choosing to slander his own living grandmother for his political advantage.

For more on his grandmother’s life, read the Wikipedia entry on Madelyn Dunham.

  • Salo

    he’d slit his own grandmother’s throat for a nickel…that’s the cliche.

    It jarred. I’m more interested in the trinity of racist old biddies.

    Clinton, Ferraro and Gran.

    SNL should have a field day with this.

    • Patrick Henry

      I Think tghe POINT He was make was about RACE..and supporting Pastor Wrights Rhetoric..

      His POINT was that even His WHITE Grandmother..tended to be a RACIST who expressed Racist Comments and Predjudice toward Black Men..

      Yes..He Dis throw Her under the BUS…Just to Make a POINT..

      I think He was sending a Signal to Pastor Wright and his fellow travlers..Yes..I AM Black enough..

      • Linda

        So, are you saying that his speech about race is: “See, I really am black enough.” Hmmmm, interesting idea and pretty damned scary in somebody who is interviewing for the POTUS job.

        • Mary

          YEP. Black Enough.

          Had he not done so, he would have PO’d the very Black community that elected him to the Senate.

          But “Black enough” was the main idea, at least for him.

          OUR main idea was that when he told the media last week that he hadn’t heard those Wright comments, and wasn’t there, he was LYING.

  • MarkL

    So is it Obama’s position that one should NOT fear large aggressive panhandlers, if they are black?!

  • Alibe

    Is the bus that pulled up and saved her the same one Obama threw her under?

    • Salo

      It’s going to be a hell of an SNL sketch…

      • simon

        It’s going to be a hell of an SNL sketch…

        It’s like he subconsciously has it out for old people. He wants to take away social security, his godfather, the would be president maker, small time hood Rezko raids pensions, he compares the slightly bigoted words of his Anglo grandmother to a foaming hate spewing Farrakhan, Gaddafi admiring racist, next thing you know, he’ll say he wants to reform medicare…

        • The Gringo’s Wife

          I think he is, just as he says (thank you Doctor Phiiiiiiiiil), a product of his upbringing.

          Obama has given us but a very small glimpse of the difficult and often soul depleting experience it is to grow up a racial “tweener.” Most bi-racial and all immigrants experience some form of this. The constant shifting between races/religions/ethnicities in order to fit in somewhere does shape the person in profound ways.

          But that is only one component of many that play a part in a person’s core beliefs. And here Obama spending 17 years at a church where such thoughts were not uncommon, shaped part of his core beliefs in that church.

          Which is the second component we can easily point to; environmental factors.

          A racist white grandmother whom I can only guess he must have struggled to love/dislike if her words made him “cringe.”

          An absent birth father.

          A Muslim step-father that takes him to the Middle East where we all know that openly hating America is common dialog, even when not taught in schools.

          A wife with strong Afro-Centric core beliefs. Beliefs that by their very nature repudiates Obama’s white heritage (certainly there were slave owners there somewhere? Dick Chenney’s granpappy maybe?).

          A preacher who further cements this internal struggle between black and white.

          Almost 20 years of repudiating a part of himself and presently teaching his daughter’s the same thing.

          It is NOT, I repeat, this is not about his being proud of his black heritage.

          This is about acknowledging that being bi-racial as he is, it is pretty significant that he has swung completely to one side up until…

          now.

          Also, that Mr. Obama has shown that up until now, he has had linear thinking about the racial divide in this country.

          Lastly, even as a lay(wo)man, it is obvious that Mr. Obama has some unresolved issues related to his own experiences as a bi-racial American. As if being a long time member of that church were not indication enough?

          And I humbly suggest that Obama needs to seek some therapy to work out those demons from his past before he can rightfully lead this country.

          It was not the American people who were caught being racist against Obama. It was Obama caught with a racist.

          Who again has the problem?

          Any psych 101 student can tell you that this is the makings for some serious psychotherapy.

          • Mary

            BINGO. And well said.

          • Linda

            I think he is a product of blind ambition. He saw that race-victimhood will get him all of the black votes and just enough of the white ones that if he “games” all of the caucuses, he will be ahead if his people cheat the way they did in the Texas caucuses.

  • jaseme

    u bigots u never amaze me! u suck!

    • Salo

      The grandma line was completely wierd. Obama is otherwise acceptable to me…no worse than Clinton as a Democratic standard bearer, but I also like the odd chuckle at the expense of high flying politicians.

      Some of the Hillary jokes make me laugh, and some of the Edwards jokes also made me laugh.

      • simon

        Obama is otherwise acceptable to me…no worse than Clinton as a Democratic standard bearer

        You’d put a corrupt, possible, terrorist enabler in the white house? (connect the dots)

        Again? You do realize this country faces real problems Obama is not able to comprehend, right?

        Did you read Larry’s pig post?

        How do you think the future will play out with an incompetent, corrupt piece of cheesecake like Obama in the White House?

        It won’t affect you?

        That’s not realistic, now, is it…

        • Salo

          They are all a bit dirty. The office is about enforcing American power globally and administering the domestic corruption that naturally occurs in a democratic state.

          • simon

            They are all a bit dirty

            This is beyond a bit dirty, this is stealing the pensions of retried teachers, over 30 billion dollars from the IL teachers alone was affected by Rezko.

            Should we not advocate for those who are unprotected, instead advocating for the mediocre politicians, putting them in offices, seemingly beyond the reach of the law they have no regard for, to steal more public money? They are elected to act in the interest of the publi, instead they abuse, is this accpetable? Why?

            Why is criminal behavior accpetable to you?

            Again, if we understand corruption can destroy a political system, say, like it is in China, and I assume you are familiar with the problems in the Chinese government, why would we tolerate it in the American government?

            Should we elect more men like Bush? Who would the corrupt Obama appoint, a man like Rezko?

            (And Salo, if this is too direct, I apologize, it is not my intent to offend you. I am trying desperately to watch my behavior, I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings).

        • Fleaflicker

          Yeah, I am trying to cut down on supporting terrorist enablers.

    • Samantha

      jaseme,

      Try School House Rock to help you start kicking the ebonics thing.

  • Alibe

    As always, his book is the synthesis of his made up life story for his own purposes. And if that fiction he wrote isn’t fictionalized enough, he feels pefectly free to change the tenor of the story, change the facts of the story… to save his ass. Always upon closer examination he doesn’t hold up. He is the great pretender.

    • Salo

      Bonnie Prince Obama and his Jacobites.

      Given that he is the likely nominee it’s better that he’s being put under pressure now than in November on this sort of stuff.

      I only hope McCain isn’t The Duke of Cumberland, and the republicans rally at Culloden.

      • simon

        Interesting, according to the Chicago Tribune, Rezko had also been hoping to run Gov Blagojevich for the Presidency, too.

        Tony had big eyes, not enough stomach…

        Rezko hoped governor would seek presidency, witness says

        March 19, 2008; 11:21 a.m.
        Prosecution witness Stuart Levine is walking jurors through the evolution of his relationship with defendant Tony Rezko. The two met at a dinner party shortly before the 2002 election in which Rezko’s close friend Rod Blagojevich was elected governor.

        At the dinner, Levine said he learned that Rezko was holding up a lucrative real estate deal that would have rendered a hefty kickback for Levine. Rezko promised to back off and was true to his word, Levine said.

        With the assistance of political insider Robert Kjellander, Levine said he set up a meeting with Rezko about a month later to discuss an insurance deal Levine was trying to get for a client with Cook County. Levine said Kjellander had told him Rezko held considerable sway in Cook County government.

        Levine said he met increasingly with Rezko in early 2003 after Blagojevich was sworn in as governor. On occasion, Levine said, Rezko described his close relationship with Blagojevich. “He said that he had raised a great deal of money for Gov. Blagojevich and that he had great hopes and expectations that Gov. Blagojevich would run for president,” Levine recalled. “And although he knew it was a long shot, he was working toward that end.”

        Levine also said that Rezko told him that he and fellow Blagojevich fundraiser Christopher Kelly “exercised the most influence” in Blagojevich’s kitchen cabinet. And Levine said Rezko told him that “all the major decisions in the governor’s office were cleared through [chief of staff] Lon Monk and through Mr. Rezko.”

        “Mr. Rezko told me that he was able to have individuals appointed to state boards and was able to have individuals hired into state agencies and that he spoke very often — and in fact went over decisions — that Lon Monk would put into place,” Levine said.

        In summer 2003, Levine said he met with Rezko at his office on Elston Avenue and the two talked over the notion of Levine’s position on a state pension board to make money for themselves.

        “Anything that I, Mr. Rezko, decide to do at TRS [the pension board], you’ll be a part of it,” Levine said Rezko told him.

        Levine said Rezko made it clear that Levine’s assistance was required, and “any moneys that would be earned in doing that he would share with me.”

        Levine said that as he left the meeting, he told Rezko he was “extraordinarily pleased to know him and I thought we could do a lot of business together.”

        Asked by a prosecutor to elaborate, Levine said, “I meant there were illegal deals that I could bring to TRS and perhaps to the Illinois Health Facilities Planning Board,” on which Levine also served.

        http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-rezko-court-story,0,7957753.story

        • Salo

          fiddling with pensions. lol. and heheheheh. Well well well.

          • simon

            fiddling with pensions. lol. and heheheheh. Well well well.

            Fiddling with just about every public trust there was in IL.

            BTW, the teachers pension alone was 30 BILLION dollars.

            So, if Rezko channeled the cash to a friendly investment firm,(“finders fee” kicked back to Tony, and Stuart,eventually Obama), was he also directing WHERE the money should be invested?

            Off the top of my head, could he say “invest with a private equity firm, like Blackstone” or “invest in GMH” or ‘invest in my straw company…?”

            • Mary

              And kickbacks, with enough padding to “finance a few politicians.”

              Helloooooooo

              • simon

                What I thought was most intersting was the remark about making Gov Blagojevitch a President, Tony seeing himself as a little kingmaker.

                He was a small time Chicago hood, I wonder why he had these delusions of grandiosity?

                • Mary

                  Interesting, that Rezko thought he could help a presidential candidate.

                  Maybe he switched midstream to a different presidential wannabe.

                  Don’t you wonder how a small Chicago real-estate guy got a huge governmental deal to build 3 power plants in Iraq? (Deal now cancelled due to indictment, but the contract was awarded to Rezko).

                  Reckon a certain anti-war senator helped his buddy get that contract?

  • Andy

    What a shame, what a disgrace. We have to put pressure on the DNC to ask him to step aside. Let’s organize something. Help with ideas?

    • Salo

      He’s probably won the nomination already. That’s my take, so all these stories ought to be aired right now, so they don’t come back up in November–or shock us in November.

      • simon

        He’s probably won the nomination already. That’s my take, so all these stories ought to be aired right now, so they don’t come back up in November–or shock us in November.

        Wishful thinking, if they think the GOP won’t exploit this, for all we know, Obama could be a week away from another legal BOMBSHELL.

        Also, the heavy marketing in terms of the ads haven’t even hit the airways yet…

      • Andy

        Pray he didn’t; for if he did then we should start calling McCain ” Mr President Elect” already.

    • mathomas

      I agree with you. He needs to step aside for the good of the party. God he is a liar to the nth degree. I’m actually starting to feel a little sorry for him. I never thought I would think this, but he reminds me of a seriously damaged child who becomes a pathological liar to manipulate their way through life.

    • rwc

      The DNC has already selected him as their choice. They are enamored at all these Democrat for a day independents and Republicans who voted for this guy.

      They think its going to translate in the GE.

      And they don’t care that the GOP 527′s and talk radio will have working class white America terrified of Obama and his bigoted, hate filled preacher and friend Wright or his association with Ayers or the New Black Panthers.

      And the attacks against Obama practically write themselves. From comparing his white grandmother to who raised him and sacrificed her financial well being to send him to elite Ivy league schools that most Americans could only dream on attending to a vile hate spewing anti-white bigot Reverend Wright is beyond horrific.

      And of course there are Wright’s rantings that are pure poltical gold. Stuff like “God damn America” and “KKKAmerica” or his speech where supported and rejoiced over 9/11 like some Pakistani Mullah.

    • flyarm

      What a disgrace this has even gone this far and the DNC is in bed with Obama..what a disgrace. I don’t even want to call myself a dem anymore!

  • Pandora

    Obama’s political Godfather is REZKO.

    Obama’s religious Godfather is WRIGHT.

    What does it say about Obama.

    • Salo

      That is the outline of an advert.

      suggests al sorts of things, and leaves you with a Cavuto mark. You missed the Cavuto mark btw!

      • simon

        Obama is otherwise acceptable to me…no worse than Clinton as a Democratic standard bearer

        Wow, salo, sorry, you and Cujo both strike me as delusional.

        Just not quite getting it.

        I don’t know, maybe Obama should hire a new writer.

        Narcissists are always the easiest mark, as they’re the last to admit they can be trolled, and every little fart they emit is consider genius, by them.

        Boy, I am making me some coconut cake today…

        • Salo

          I’m inclined to scrap 08. It is beginning to look like a train wreck to me. Two core constituencies have got their respective hopes up, and the emnity between them is getting so strong that either one would consider bolting if their prefered candidate is knocked out.

          There’s more than enough narcissism to go around.

    • Annie

      I know what it says about Obama but what does it say about those who will still vote for him to be the Democratic nominee and what if he wins the Presidency? As President he will be in charge of the military.

      Considering his allegiances to Wright and Ayers, never mind Rezko and what is going to be coming out of that trial in Chicago. Then there is Farakhan and the Black Panthers. And God knows what else and then there is his wife and her telling comments – showing similar thoughts to their old uncle Pastor Wright – the racist anti American bigit.

      Also the thuggery at the various caucus contests. How on earth does he get away with it?

      Bush was a disaster but Barak will be worse and not just worse but dangerous.

  • Mary

    Thank you for posting these links and websites reinforcing what I’ve tried to tell the board about Obama’s “selective” descriptions of his background.

    His mother and grandparents were his LIFELINE to self-esteem and growth of his dreams.

    His Black father and Black “uncle” were not.

    Throwing his white family under the bus as “racists” is absolutely despicable, in my mind.

    Enough already.

    • Salo

      Ah…well, damn the family! As the enlightenment stated– No Bishop no King. Rt Rev. Wright is more important to his chances to win the Presidency than his Grandma.

      • Mary

        Paris is worth a mass, eh?

  • Dora Ratquila

    Tarring his grandmother with the brush of a bigot and mentioning Gerry Ferraro in the same sentence as Jeremiah Wright are just two additional reasons why Barack Obama’s non-mea culpa of a speech will come back to haunt him for as long as he remains in public life. He is cooked and is unfit even as a candidate for the primaries. If the DNC had a more responsible chairman, that person would have already advised him to pack his bags and close shop. I’m sure the contributors in Wall Street will understand. The Democratic Party – at least during the time of Bill Clinton – was in the game to win the White House and make a positive difference in the lives of millions of Americans (which the Clinton presidency thankfully delivered on). Exelongate, Rezkogate, NAFTAgate and Wrightgate are just a bit too much for any reasonable voter to stomach. No more Kool Aid, please!

  • flyarm

    ya know as a mother..Obama made me sick to my stomach yesterday when i heard what he said about his grandmother..it just made me sick.
    My best friend lives in Oahu..her husband is a professor in a Hawaiian university, and she can not even get her son into the school Obama went to, she has tried everything to get her son into that school.

    And yet this ungreatful SOB..used his grandmother yesterday for his own blind ambtion..a woman that gave him the most incredible advantage for his life and future.

    This is the mother in me saying..what an incredibly selfish little snot!

    I will say this without a doubt..my husband wore the uniform of this country, as did my father, my husbands mother and Father..my grandfather left his Eye on the USS Arizona…

    While my son was in college and playing a sport for his University he opened his season in Oahu Hawaii…while there one winter..my son got to see a flag raised for his great grandfather on the USS Arizona memorial..

    I, a proud lifelong democrat, will never, ever , ever vote for Obama..

    My father fought for this country..and i know he is rolling in his grave today..knowing someone could be running for president, who’s pastor for 20 years called this country, god damn america.

    hey Obama , that was not racist..that was hate.

    My co-workers and my airline that i worked for, for 33 years was attacked on 9/11,as was this nation.. and no one will ever tell me Obama did not know what his spiritual leader said about 9/11..i will never get beyond that, nor will i ever get beyond ..GOD DAMN AMERICA.
    My co-workers were not terrorist..in fact they galliantly tried everything to save their passengers..a couple had their throats slit..while strapped into their jumpseats.

    How dare Obama do a SPEECH YESTERDAY AND TIE HIS PASTOR’S SERMONS TO RACISM..

    I have watched the tapes, and what i saw was unadulterated hatred.

    I will never vote for anyone who tolerated this behavior from someone who Hates America so much he could say ..God Damed America..

    My dad fought and died young for this nation and for freedom of speech and all the freedoms we know..and enjoy…although i respect the right to free speech..there is a responsibility for what we say and how we say it…especially for anyone running for the highest office of our land, and for pastors who speak to large numbers of people with the power of the pulpit.

    So my message to Dean Donna Brazile, Pelosi, Kerry,and Kennedy and anyone else who has endorsed this man named Obama..

    I will stay home in November..if you allow this man to be our nominee.

    I will stay home if you do not count my vote in Fla before the Convention.

    I will re-register an an independent, and i will never do another days work for the democratic party.

    I will never give the DNC or any democrat another damn dime!

    Dean and Donna Brazile ..have supported Obama from the get go..they have betrayed the democrats in this country by not remaining neutral. They have never been Neutral.

    They should be removed from their offices, as they have done more damage to the Dem party than anyone i have seen in a very very long time.

    I was certain that in Nov we would turn Fla Blue..bluer than blue..now i know that will never happen, thanks to Dean and Donna Brazile.

    If you think they are working for you as a dem..i have a piece of swamp land for you ..alligators included!

    • PMS

      So, ummm, flyarm… tell us how you REALLY feel.
      -
      -
      -
      P.S. I’m with you.

  • Michaela22

    So, let me get this straight, the part about his grandmother that he told anyone that would listen yesterday…was…..only……partially true?
    The incident happened once? He seems to have once again stretched the truth.

    Every time this guy opens his mouth we get half truths, out and out lies, or anything inbetween…and we are suppose to believe that he will unite this country…How can you depend and trust someone, give him your most precious vote and find that his words meaning “nothing”….they are
    “just words”
    He has blindsided so many, especially the young generation that trusted and worked so hard for him..

    • Andy

      What a charlatan…

    • Kevin

      Michaela, please… cite from the transcript of the speech the sentence(s) that support your claim? G’head… I dare you.

      Why is it soooooo hard to not only hear an ugly truth but acknowledge honest reception of those statements? Why have so many, such as yourself merely mindlessly parroted GOP, etc. talking points and make claims based not on fact, not on the content of the speech, but merely your impression(s) that are divorced from reality?

      • Andy

        Kevin, did you say we are divorced from reality ?? LOL at you pal.

        Look around, last time I checked Obama breaths Wright’s racism and snti-semitism and about 13.5mllion people out of 27million did not vote for Obama.

        Now, if you rally want to have a discussion about who is divorced from reality, we have a few questions for you: ready? Let me nkow when you are.

        • Kevin

          Certainly sport, but why don’t you start out by citing some examples of “Obama breathing Wrights racism and anti-semitism”… g’head. I’ll wait.

          The mere fact that you can’t even engage (directly) any of my points… but latch onto one thing that you for whatever reason have taken as a personal insult (very telling) that demands a response… well… you’ve spoken volumes already.

          • Kevin

            ps – sport was NOT meant in a snarky way.

            • simon

              citing some examples of “Obama breathing Wrights racism and anti-semitism”… g’head. I’ll wait.

              You don’t consider Wright’s sermon’s racist?

              Obama’s refusal to denounce him, or even offer an intelligently reasoned defense of his OWN lack of action is a tacit admission of racism, failing to stand down Wright’s remarks.

              And it is, Wright’s is a blatant racism, Obama’s is covert.

              And you can try to spin this as much as you want, but the American people see this as racist, and they’re right.

              Obama would have taken different action if he disagreed with Wright.

              And I’m sure, knowing the press today, if Obama has a white maccaca moment it will surface, eventually.

  • I thought it was good…

    I liked Obama’s speech. And I’ve only come to like Obama more since he became a candidate and I’ve learned more about him.

    I’m not going to try to change your mind or refute the arguments made here, most of which I disagree with. And I’m not trying to boycott NoQuarter or anything like that. I’m just surprised by the posts here. I used to come to NoQuarter to read insightful writing on intelligence, foreign policy and politics but I’ve visited less and less since the rising support for Clinton and condemnation of Obama. I could say that I don’t understand why you think/feel the way you do, but I also know that everyone has their reasons. I know that a politician is a politician and I have never held out hope for some kind of perfect “hero” or role model; I think everyone makes mistakes and many people do bad things, and I think politicians more so than others. What I mean to say is that I don’t look for perfection anywhere. With this caveat, I also find Obama to be more sincere than any politician I can recall. He doesn’t talk with the calculation that every other politician does. I usually ignore the words of politicians because they so often mean nothing and I excuse them for the lies that politicians typically tell to sell themselves and their ideas – but I don’t find that with Obama. I thought his speech was smart and honest and made me understand how he could be associated with Rev. Wright (and as a white man introduced to religion as a kid in the UCC Church, I was not offended by Wright’s comments, by the way). I’m keeping my eyes and ears open, but I think Barack Obama is the best candidate running for president. And I look forward to after November when the pro-Clinton/anti-Obama fest is over here.

    Thanks for your website, Mr. Johnson and all.

    PS, SusanUnPC, and completely off topic: I love my Tom Binh tote bag that carries tons of stuff and will probably last forever (and if you don’t work for Tom Binh, then please ignore this off-topic post-script).

    • MarkL

      The bottom line for me is that I don’t believe Obama is remotely qualified to become President.
      Everything else comes after that.
      He doesn’t have enough experience, and what resume he does show is puffed up in various ways.
      I’m speaking of his POLITICAL resume`, by the way—he’s certainly an accomplished, educated citizen; however, he is no more ready to be President than Paul Krugman or Laurence Tribe.

    • MarkL

      Nice comment, btw. I wish people on both sides could sound as reasonable as you do.

    • Salo

      It’s quite the opposite for me. I like the idea that he’s calculating. Every word is measured.

      Bush is a sincere dolt. Obama is immpressive because he is a very sharp operator. He’s not likely to make very many strategic mistakes.

      However, he is a perfect vehicle for sell a new war here or there, in a way that McCain or Clinton could not. He’s got some sort of “magical judgement” ability to discern smart and dumb wars. Any war he backs is, by default, a smart war.

      • PMS

        However, he is a perfect vehicle for sell a new war here or there, in a way that McCain or Clinton could not. He’s got some sort of “magical judgement” ability to discern smart and dumb wars. Any war he backs is, by default, a smart war.

        And to his disciples, it would not only be a smart war, it would be a holy and just war… even if it’s against the USA.

        • http://noquarterusa.net/blot/2008/03/19/obama-throws-his-grandmother-from-the-train/#more-1856 Spontaneous

          I believe his followers would completely support him in any wars he would like to create. On the other hand, it could just be me, but I don’t think his followers are going to enlist to fight his wars.

      • MarkL

        Right. Obama is the one who could “Iraqify” Pakistan. None of the others are as foolhardy as Obama. McCain is a super hawk, sure, but he’s not dumb.

      • simon

        Obama is immpressive because he is a very sharp operator

        AS long as he doesn’t have to deviate from script.

        Notice his press conferences are tortured affairs, ending with him running from the reporters.

        • simon

          And Obama’s criminality, the more that is exposed about Rezko, I wonder how that can be ignored as a factor, given Rezko’s crimes, and his Middle East connections?

          The denial is massive.

          • Kevin

            As opposed to similarly odious (in appearance – and in reality) connections that Hillary has w/ shady characters??? Please…

            • simon

              As opposed to similarly odious (in appearance – and in reality) connections that Hillary has w/ shady characters??? Please…

              None with direct links to a Tony Rezko, who nurtured Obama, and none with a man who was Saddam’s former bagman, like Auchi.

              BTW, when I refer to some as delusional, it is this inability to recognize the seriousness of what a man like Auchi represents to both Americans and Iraqis that is so striking.

              Auchi was Saddam’s former bagman, and this carries no consequence, at all, for American politicians, who then go on to sell us a war regarding Saddam’s rape rooms, in part financially enabled by a man like Auchi, through the oil for food scandal.

              Why?

              And the minute this behavior is rationalized, it is tolerated, and Auchi is a part of our government. Tony Rezko wants to elect a president, his methods currently being revealed in an IL courtroom. Who is Tony Rezko’s benefactor? Auchi.

              Again, Kevin, I am trying to be sensitive, if I offended your feelings, I apologize.

              • simon

                My point being real Iraqis were horrifically victimized by Saddam, and Auchi, and no one in a position of power seems to care, in fact, would almost be flipping off the peasants, by admitting Auchi into the elite social circles.

                This action has ramifications the mediocre and stupid cannot comprehend, in terms of greater middle east stability, say.

                And if you’re mediocre and stupid, I apologize.

              • Kevin

                Okay… I couldn’t resist.

                “None with direct links to a Tony Rezko, who nurtured Obama, and none with a man who was Saddam’s former bagman, like Auchi.”

                What does that “directly” have to do with the comment I made, or the thread other than giving you a chance to throw mud?

                • Mary

                  It isn’t mud, Kevin. It’s currently part of a federal investigation and trial.

                  But perhaps on the we-love-Obama websites where you get your talking points, they don’t discuss the important issues simon is trying to patiently explain to you.

                  Google Rezko. Then google Auchi and Saddam Hussein.

                  Get back to us about what you learned, and how Obama’s connections to these men is very serious business.

    • Samantha

      I thought it was good –

      Finally – an Obama supporter who admits that regardless of Obama’s serious flaws – you just like him more because of them.

      It reminds me of the way they packaged GWB. He’s just like you folks – too stupid to screw you over.

      It’s a marketing ploy that works with used car salesmen. Interesting that you read it into the Obama campaign.

  • Madison

    this is so awful about the grandmother. I wish the MSM would cover this. I wonder what his grandmother thinks.

    • I thought it was good…

      I don’t understand the idea that Obama did something so awful in explaining that his own Grandmother has also made comments that he is not proud of. It didn’t take much to get my Grandfather to utter racial slurs about all the other people in his city who didn’t look like him – it doesn’t mean I didn’t love him and my Dad didn’t love him, or that he was a terrible Grandfather. I cringed when my Grandfather said those things. But he also came from another time and place and it took a long time for him to change his views.
      Anyway, it’s not like Obama swore at his Grandmother on TV or aired a family secret – he made a valid point.

      • MarkL

        First of all, it appears he was lying. Second, it’s totally inappropriate to relay and compare PRIVATE conversations with the noxious hate speech of Wright.

      • apishapa

        First this Grandmother did not stand at a pulpit and scream her hatred of Black men and peddle videos of that screed. His Grandmother confessed that once a black panhandler threatened her and she was frightened. So, to compare her with Wright is a terrible thing to do to his grandmother.

        If he needed an example of racism from his own life, he could have mentioned his black grandparents in Kenya who were horrified when their son married Obama’s mother. Not because he was committing bigamy, but because she was white and would taint the Obama bloodline. Now, that might be racist.

        He used his white Grandmother’s private admission to prop up his hate mongering pastor. There was no reason do that. By his own account she showed him more love than anyone in his life. Obama has a mean streak.

        • Kevin

          Just curious, but besides the few clips of Wrights sermon(s) that you’ve seen – how many other instances of him “screaming racism” from the pulpit do you know of? And while I’m at it… what’s so different about some of the things he said and views espoused by Robertson, Falwell, Hagee, etc.? Why no outrage over those? I find it oh so telling that the very double standard alluded to in Obama’s speech is on display with all the outrage over Wright…

          • simon

            what’s so different about some of the things he said and views espoused by Robertson, Falwell, Hagee, etc.?

            Those evangelical preachers don’t actively encourage hate of another from their pulpit.

            They may incite their listener to feel superior, without reason, (speaking of narcissism), but they don’t promote active hate.

            Wright does.

            Do you see the difference, I know it can be difficult?

            • Kevin

              Simon, I have to stop again and ask…

              “Those evangelical preachers don’t actively encourage hate of another from their pulpit.”

              Are you serious? You believe and stand by that statement?

              • simon

                “Those evangelical preachers don’t actively encourage hate of another from their pulpit.”

                Give me an example.

                They MAY hate, and I find them repulsively stupid, narcissistic and untalented, way overrated, Kevin, but I have yet to see one call a woman a bitch, encouraging misogyny during the course of a church service, like Wright.

                They might insinuate, but rarely do I see it spring from irrational hate, more from greed, Wright hates.

                And Wright associated with Farrakhan, and Qaddafi.

                Qaddafi was responsible for the murder of 270 people at Lockerbie.

                Jim Baker doesn’t come close, and as far as I know, Timothy McVeigh was not his acolyte.

                And given the racism black people face, the rage is understandable, but in the same way I wouldn’t tolerate the criminal blathering of some stupid psycho just because his mother was cold, I won’t tolerate hate speech from a black minister because of racism he has faced.

              • simon

                You believe and stand by that statement?

                Explain to me why you feel this is so, citing examples, and we’ll discuss it.

                Stating a generality without explanation is not sufficient.

                • Kevin

                  2008-03-19 19:07:15

                  Read the response below – and while you’re at it, why don’t you respond to some of the other direct questions I asked you when you respond.

                  • simon

                    Read the response below – and while you’re at it, why don’t you respond to some of the other direct questions I asked you when you respond.

                    I don’t spend every second on the blog, Kevin, I’m trying to have a reasonable dicsussion with you, calm down.

                    And if you’re simply seeking attention , why, I’ll email Susan and complain about your uncivil, disruptive behavior.

                    Oh, wait, that’s MEOW.

                    Sorry.

          • flyarm

            have you somehow been under a rock and not heard dems speaking out about Robertson, Falwell, Hagee? I can’t remember not speaking out about the horrible things they have spoken, so are we supposed to yell about them and the republicans and ignore it when our own do the same or worse??????????

            i don’t buy that.

            right is right..wrong is wrong..and i am an American before i am a democrat!

            • Kevin

              That’s not my point, yes some progressives and democrats (heck even some repubs) decried those remarks – yet, those incidents had nowhere the lasting power in social dialogue – that’s what I’m talking about… the seeming double standard.

              • Mary

                You mean, Barak’s double standard of campaigning as a uniter, while his spiritual mentor’s teachings are those of a divider?

                THOSE double standards?

              • flyarm

                YES THEY HAVE ..THEY MOST CERTAINLY HAVE.. i guess you are new around the democratic party..or new to politics..but yes the Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertsons have been decried for a very very long time.

                It is pretty obvious you are new to politics..or new to what has been the norm around the dem web sites and Dem clubs and party.

          • apishapa

            I despise the teachings of Falwell, Haggee, Dobson and Robertson, etc. I find all of so-called “Men of God” who use their pulpits to further and agenda of hate offensive. I have been in a church when a preacher started a sermon encouraging hatred of Jews. I don’t know how long he went on because I got up, grabbed my two children and LEFT and never set foot in that church again. I don’t control the MSM, but teachings of those kind of prechers do outrage me.

            Also, please remember, Obama has taken to different gay bashing preachers on his campaign trail. Then, he turned around and claimed he didn’t agree with them either. Obama has been briging a lot of people he disagrees with into his inner circle. One has to wonder why.

            The reason there is so much outrage now is because Obama has held himself up as a shining example of Love and Tolerance, and painted others as less so. Now we find out he has supported a Man of Division and Intolerance for 20 years.

            To compare an old woman’s fear of a threatening man of any color, confided in confidence, to the kind of hatred encouraged by Reverand Wright is just wrong. There is no comparison.

            I believe Obama made a serious error in attcking his Grandma. Unless she is a mean heartless bitch, who has a big reputation of spreading the hate all around, you do not attack old ladies. Maybe he can find a way to blame it on Hillary.

          • Mary

            Kevin dear, Rev. Wright sermonized that Bill Clinton “did the dirty to the Blacks just like he did Monica Lewinsky,” while gyrating and thrusting his hips sexually. He did so, in the pulpit, with CHILDREN present in the congregation.

            Name me ONE rightwing preacher who would be so crude in front of children.

            Just ONE.

  • Sam

    Fade, I don’t mean to be condescending, but please put down the kool-aid.

    First of all, those videos of Rev. Wright screaming with hatred towards America and telling lies about the origin of HIV/AIDS as a virus invented by the government to commit genocide about African Americans were way out of line. Now, this is a free country and I believe in freedom of speech, so Rev. Wright should say whatever he wants – it is his church and his pulpit. I may disagree strongly, but he can say whatever he wants. Obama also has the right to sit through such hateful sermons for 20 years, to ask Rev. Wright to marry him, to ask Rev. Wright to baptize his children, and to give that church more than $20,000 in the last year alone.

    But I have the right to judge him for it and to take these facts into account when I consider his fitness for the presidency and to be commander-in-chief. What I was looking for yesterday was for him to take responsibility for his inaction over the last 20 years. Why didn’t he ever take Rev. Wright aside and say you know, I think we should be trying to bring people together with hope, not hate? Or, say to Rev. Wright I think you have your facts wrong about HIV/AIDS.

    Nothing in his speech yesterday told me that he had ever made any effort to reach out to Rev. Wright, and that calls into question his judgement and his character. Oprah left the church, Colin Powell rejected this kind of hate speech, why didn’t Obama? Why did he think it was appropriate for him to sit through 20 years of comments like “God Damn America” and the “US of the KKK-A”?

    I did not think his explanation yesterday was sufficient. It as a good speech on race, but it was hypocritical and unsatisfying for people who were really troubled by his long and deep association with the Reverend.

    I use the extremist connections many on the Right have with hateful preachers in making my judgement about them, and it would be wrong and hypocritical for me to not use the same guidelines to judge politicians on the left. If Clinton had a 20 year long and deep relationship with Pat Robertson, you really wouldn’t mind? Who are you kidding!

    But regardless of how you feel, this now turns into an electability issue. I have a feeling many Americans will mind. I could be wrong, but I think a general election with constant 527 advertisements will be devastating for Obama and for the Democratic Party.

    • Mary

      Sam,

      The new Rasmussen poll about Obama/Wright already shows it has affected Obama’s electability:

      58% of polled voters disapprove of Obama’s former minister.
      Only 8% view him favorably.

      56% said they were less likely to vote for Obama because of Wright.

      73% of voters say Wright’s comments are racially DIVISIVE.
      77% of those were whites.
      58% of those were African Americans.

      Obama’s unfavorable numbers are now 49%, and the Gallup Daily Tracking numbers show Hillary ahead 49/42. (3 days ago, Obama was winning 48/45).

      SUSA put out a new Ohio poll today:
      Clinton beats McCain 50/44
      McCain beats Obama 50/43

      SUSA also put out a new Missouri poll:
      McCain beats Clinton 48/46
      But McCain beats Obama 53/39

      I think these sudden freefall numbers speak volumes about how the majority of Americans feel about Obama’s “former” minister and his comments.

  • Patrick Henry

    Just taking a break from workin outside…Nothing like a Beer and homemade Smoked Salmon and Crackers..

    FADE..I think your points are Wrong..Nobody Talks Racism more than Black People do..Thwey play off it and keep stirring things up..by Blame the RICH White People for everything..Its been a PAYCHECK for Pastor Wright..

    If people don’t like Black people..or call them the “N” word..its because of the ones who Talk like Pastor Wright..and others who who get on TV and alwasy talk about RaCISM AND Discrimination..

    People here at NQ didn’t say the things Obamas Spiritual Mentor did..People here are just staing the Obvious Known..Already Published Facts about Senator Obama and his Asssociates and Business deals..and Proving there really are two or three Obama’s..ALL PUBLIC INFORMATION..

    The REPUBLICANS Know all this..They have a Highly Effecient TEAM of Operators in Thier ORGANIZATION..

    The Disclosures here at NQ..are Realistic and are Called VETTING…Checking BACKGROUND..

    Looking For BLOWBACK..

    Its Not about OBAMA Right or Wrong..or the DEMOCRAT PARTY..Right or Wrong..

    Its Just Really about RIGHT or WRONG..isn’t it..

    What Obama has done has been Wrong..

    He has spent His Lifetime getting in Touch with His BLACK Heritage..Black causes..BLACK POWER..His DAD..right or Wrong…His Pastor..Right or Wrong..Black Power ..Right or Wrong..Blaming the White Establishment…Right or Wrong..

    Well..Senator Obama…You are Aslo WHITE…and I think You should spend as Much time getting in Touch
    with Your White Relatives..Your White Heritage ..
    and Realizing that Pastor WRIGHT was Wrong..It is HE Who is RACIST..Who Preaches HATRED..Who INCITES..

    All the White People who trust You..Voted For You..
    KNOW You are Half Black..and They SUPPORTED YOU ANYHOW..You nshould be ashamed for continuing to Defend Black Power Racism..and learn something about the Real World..

    Whites support You ..Havent you and Michelle even Had a WAKE UP CALL Yet..??

    White..Brown..Black..Yellow..Red Children all Play and walk Home together..now..

    So far..You and the Reverend Wright are Moving the EquaL Rights Movement Backwards..YOU are Creating MORE Bitterness..

    We all Know that Black people were Slaves..

    We also Put an END to It..and have been Actiuve and Happy to help Black People Gain thier EQUALITY..

    Its WE THE PEOPLE..

    Not WE THE WHITE PEOPLE or WE THE BLACK PEOPLE..

    NQ is a courageous VOICE..

    TRUTH and TRUST Matter.

    Thanks Larry..thanks Susan..thanks all of you..

    • simon

      FADE..I think your points are Wrong..Nobody Talks Racism more than Black People do..Thwey play off it and keep stirring things up..by Blame the RICH White People for everything..Its been a PAYCHECK for Pastor Wright..

      That’s because black people have been discriminated against, tragically, and consistently.

      The complaints are legitimate, Wright’s approach is horrific.

      MLK, jr was a great man, infinitely courageous, without him civil rights would not have progressed as quickly as they did, a bloodless revolution, using the brain instead of the fist, and hate.

      (In the 60′s, black people couldn’t even eat lunch at the same counter as whites, this was not even 50 years ago, and the miasma of that racism still remains, how could Americans allow that, treating, thinking of others as inherently inferior, because of their skin?)

      Strong vestiges of that racism remain, and still must be addressed, the republicans having exploited this issue to gain votes, and power, per the southern strategy.

      I had a class, in college, studying 18th century literature and the law. One of the first ways the wealthy in this country fought the unions was to exploit the race differences, poor whites versus blacks, the wealthy encouraging the white worker to identify with the elite, encouraging hate, while refusing to pay a living wage. This was Reagan politics, 101, in a nutshell, also, nut much changed.

      Revolting, and simple minded fools who would destroy their own country for momentary, fleeting, political gain.

      • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

        SIMON: E-MAIL ME IMMEDIATELY.

        susanunpc at gmail dot com

      • Andy

        Today’s racism is not only towards blacks; at varying degrees it is also in some parts with latinos and other “brown” people as well.

        • simon

          Today’s racism is not only towards blacks; at varying degrees it is also in some parts with latinos and other “brown” people as well.

          Agreed, other races though don’t have the history of slavery.

          • Samantha

            Simon –

            I appreciate your sensitivity, but Liberia is a hell hole and it was created by freed slaves.

            I never had slaves. I can’t even get my pets to follow my orders.

            And if you think that black people aren’t every bit as racist as white people, you are wrong.

            Just listen to Rev. Wrong’s flock scream approval.

            Poor Barack’s Grandma. She raised a wicked little shit.

  • Kevin

    I find it utterly amazing, though not surprising that you along with others are quick to jump on the “Wright is racist or his comments are racist” when you certainly haven’t espoused similar outrage over similar comments from others:

    1. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said America is damned — cursed by God, though not permanently — because we tolerate feminists and queer people.

    2. John Hagee says America is damned — cursed by God, though not permanently — because we tolerate Muslims.

    3. Jeremiah Wright says America is damned — cursed by God, though not permanently, suffering from hate and division, from bitterness and envy — because we succumb to hating one another.

    That’s for starters – you join the others who feel that Obama, “threw his grandmother from the train”???

    Give me a freakin’ break – I heard my grandmother and older relatives espouse racist and/or bigoted views as well – and it in no way diminished my love or respect for them… if anything, it made me examine my own views and feelings more closely.

    What’s with this continuation of creating a tempest in a teapot???? And remind me again of your take on Ferraro’s comments or similar statements?

    • simon

      Kevin,

      Maybe you need to clarify your writing.

      You’re pro-Obama?

      Two wrongs don’t make a right.

      The christian evangelicals are despicable because they lie, and bilk others of money in the name of god, (Obama does it in the name of Chicago politics).

      Those Christian preachers don’t preach the destruction of America, though, and they don’t excoriate their congregations to actively hate.

      They’re more Keith Olbermann, than Malcolm X.

      I wonder what makes a black preacher choose Malcolm over Martin?

      [SIMON: E-MAIL ME NOW. Susanunpc at gmail dot com -- IT IS IMPERATIVE YOU SEND ME AN E-MAIL RIGHT AWAY.]

      • Kevin

        “They don’t preach the destruction of America”???
        Again – cite a direct quote where Wright does that.

        And, you’re saying that Robertson, Falwell, etc. haven’t said equivalent things, let alone welcomed – let alone called for the coming of the end times because of America’s actions????

        To answer your question – I’m pro-obama if I must choose between him and hillary. My main focus however is on the take on his speech and the continuing histrionics over Wrights comments. Again… did he or did he not say he rejected and denounced them? Did he or did he not try and explain why people like Wright, and people w/ opposing views feel that way?

        And is it truly so implausible for you and everyone else to not believe that he disagreed w/ Wrights words, yet still attended that church???

        Come on for cryin’ out loud. The speech was a frank and direct opening of dialogue on the subject of race and the promise of america – yet rather than engage in said discussion – people seem to be focused still on Wrights words.

        What, can’t/don’t want to engage in the conversation?

        • Hope

          Kevin:
          Anyone can merely denounce anything. I can write here all day long how I denounce racism ad infinitum, but if I attend a church week after week whose pastor/priest/reverend uses racist arguments to foment hatred towards any particular ethnic group, I would be an individual implicity conspiring with those ideas and feelings.

          Simply put: “Birds of a feather flock together”.

          • Kevin

            While I understand your point Hope, that’s like saying that everyone who goes to a Catholic church supports and agrees w/ the Priest’s or Church’s stances on any number of things. That’s as simplistic as saying that all catholics by continuing to attend church implicitly support and defend the sexual abuse???

            Come on – we can do better than that type of reasoning, and that’s precisely what the speech was pointing towards – yet, we’re still mired in the old ways.

            • simon

              That’s as simplistic as saying that all catholics by continuing to attend church implicitly support and defend the sexual abuse???

              I am a Catholic who believes in a woman’s right to choose, the seperation of church adn state, and the full rights of the GLTB community.

              I no longer attend mass on Sunday because I disagree with my church.

              But I do consider myself a Catholic, and always will.

              • Kevin

                I congratulate you on your convictions, but you seem to have completely dodged my point regarding her premise.

                • simon

                  but you seem to have completely dodged my point regarding her premise.

                  In my first post, I asked you to clarify, again, YOUR premise, I was unclear on your point.

                  Could you restate it?

                  I’m sorry, I guess I’m thinking stupidly today…

            • Hope

              Kevin,

              If one doesn’t agree with one’s spiritual advisors, then why be there? What’s the point? It is just sheer hypocrisy or numbness of the soul. Who wants to sleep through life like that? Is Obama asleep? Is he a mindless follower? Is he just a user of his own people for political purposes, using his church for his own means to an end? These are questions he should ask himself PRIVATELY if he doesn’t want to be subjected to such virulent scrutiny. We are only having this discussion because he very publicly introduced us to this part of his personna. He is his own playwright, starring in his own melodrama and we, the public, have a right to either give him the Oscar for Best or Worst Performance.

            • BloggerBoyz

              No. Going to a catholic Church does not signify you support sexual abuse, just like being a part of a denomination means you agree with every policy position taken by that denomination. And no one would ever go there.

              But if you’re in church and your priest gets up and starts talking about how sexual abuse is wonderful, and you’re a politician, and you don’t high tail it the hell out of there, denounce it, and find some place else to worship, then you might as well retire, because you’re an idiot. If your pastor urges the congregation to sing ‘God Damn America’ the same holds, it’s better to denounce him than offer him a position as an advisor. Politicians answer to voters, it ain’t rocket science.

              Sure he denounced the statements, but only after he got caught, not after they were made. Voters won’t be impressed by that. And yes, Robertson is an idiot, so that will completely wipe away voters’ reactions to his judgment and patriotism.

              “I heard my grandmother and older relatives espouse racist and/or bigoted views as well – and it in no way diminished my love or respect for them”

              That’s not the issue. Obama no doubt loved his grandmother, but he still held her up to an unfair level of public scrutiny. Would you like to be embarassed in public like that? Would you like to have reporters camped on your doorstep, and everybody in America talking about you as the symbol of racism? Wright is a public figure who sells tapes, Obama’s grandmother is not. Obama could have made the same point in a vague way, saying that people he loved were not always perfect, but he loved them despite their racism. He didn’t have to name her and open her up to all of this. Most people keep their family issues within the family, instead of telling their grandmother’s neighbors about her private business, well everytime Obama’s neighbors see the woman they’ll be thinking “oh there goes America’s most famous racist.” Not fair, not nice.

            • mimi

              “yet, we’re still mired in the old ways.”

              The reason why is this: People are angry because Obama presented himself one way, as a Uniter, an Agent of Change, who inspired hope and that his campaign was different.

              The Rev. Wright controversy pulled the curtain on the utter hypocrisy of Obama and his campaign. People here are nailing him on this issue because of all the things he misrepresented about himself has been proven by his relationship to Wright and his continued membership in that church.

              Obama could have had this dialogue from the beginning. Since so many claim that Obama more than anyone else is the person to put race out there for discussion, why did he wait until he was backed into a corner? Why didn’t he present himself to the political landscape as a bi-racial candidate with a multi-heritage background?

              I’ll tell you why. It was because he wanted the loyal and unyielding support of the AA community. He needed to alienate the Clintons from their solid AA base. And he did this while playing the race card at every opportune moment then pretending that he wasn’t. It was, as someone above pointed out, KARMA that came back to get him.

              Now, no one wants to overlook all of this and make nice with him and have a discussion on race. We want him exposed for who he is: just an ordinary politician who will do anything to get elected. Let him NOW stand on the merits of his experience, qualifications and electability, not on this illusion of him being this great Messiah.

              It was a gross miscalculation on his part not to run a campaign based on his unitque background just to exploit the AA community’s overwhelming support. Maybe if he had done this, he’d have the nomination sewed up. As it stands, he’s not won any big states except Illinois. Maybe this is why.

              • TeakwoodKite

                On 360 Sen. Obama said that ” The race issue was going to come at some point”…

                Makes you wonder why he did not take this one head on.

        • Mary

          Kevin,

          This preacher is the man Barak and Michelle wanted their own children to learn from.

          Doesn’t that tell you something?

      • Kevin

        While I’m at it, yes I agree – two wrongs don’t make a right. Better question, how is it that I and many others can see the truth, validity and import of both MLK and Malcom?

        As for the “don’t actively preach hate against others” here’s are a few quick noxious examples
        (unfortunately (only because it’ll be dismissed) anti-gay is the first thing one finds, but there are racial, social examples as well).

        http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/hate.html

        • simon

          Better question, how is it that I and many others can see the truth, validity and import of both MLK and Malcom?

          If I remember, Malcolm came around, though, before he was shot, denouncing violence, tracking more with Martin.

          Wright hasn’t had such an epiphany, yet, associating with Farrakhan.

          (BTW, how do you think this will play in the GE?)

          Do you think hate speech is justified, when other means of resolution are available?

          Secondly, though you may feel you are presenting a reasonable argument, and you certainly may be, I feel you’re trying to create a thread of straw man arguments, (though I’m not sure I’m supposed to say that as I offended Cujo).

          Specifically, I thought Malcolm was brilliant, remembering the jerri curl, and the lye needed to straighten hair, the humiliation he later felt at changing himself to be more like “white” was moving, intellectually honest.

          But violence and hate only eats those who offer it as a weapon.

          (So if you’re offended, I apologize, I realize different people have different tolerance levels).

          • Kevin

            I applaud and acknowledge your points, but find it funny that when presented w/ specifics you requested you choose not to continue that conversation.

            “Secondly, though you may feel you are presenting a reasonable argument, and you certainly may be, I feel you’re trying to create a thread of straw man arguments”

            Funnier still! You “may” feel I’m presenting a reasonable argument – while simultaneously you believe I’m constructing a thread of “straw man arguments??? This coming from someone who’s deftly avoided sticking to one strain of the thread whenever I’ve challenged you? Okay.

            Anyway, clearly we’re not going to come to (much) agreement on any of this. Thank you for the engaging conversation however.

            • simon

              Funnier still! You “may” feel I’m presenting a reasonable argument – while simultaneously you believe I’m constructing a thread of “straw man arguments??? This coming from someone who’s deftly avoided sticking to one strain of the thread whenever I’ve challenged you? Okay.

              No, Kevin, YOU may feel you’re presenting reasonable arguments, I think they’re strawmen.

              Secondly, again, we are bouncing around in threads, and I am very civilly asking you to clarify, instead you are purposely agitating.

              Again, if this persists, I will ask Susan, through email, to review your posts, and ask her opinion as to whether she thinks you are trolling.

              If not, I can only suggest a man of your towering unique talents join a Usenet group such as MEOW, an Internet social club always on the look out for the intellectually brilliant, those gifted with ground breaking methods of information propagation, those fluent in the art of rhetorical persuasion…

              Try alt usenet.kooks, many members of MEOW frequently post there, feeding scintillating topics of discussion, I’m sure you will feel right at home, as they are too swell, FUNNY, witty, an “A list” group of posters, with clever technique, just like yours, intellectually unique, a fresh breath on the USENET landscape.

              • Douglas

                Wow. Someone raises legitimate points and all you can do is double speak, pidgeon hole them as a narcissist, or a troll (favourites of yours i’ve noticed Sigmund, we’re not one dimensional at all are we?) and now they’re threatened with a jolly good banning, numerous times?

                I thought we decried that sort of nonsense at No Quarter as the actions of the “blind kossack obamanaughts”.

                The irony is not lost. Nice to see.

                • Mary

                  Simon was quite patient with Kevin, Douglas, trying to explain very legitimate points to him.

                  You jump unjustifiably.

        • Douglas

          But Kevin…you don’t GET IT. HE SAID HIS GRANNY WAS RACIST!!! Clearly it’s OBAMA who is the monster. Sam Power needs to wake up and stop drinking the kool aid.

          I agree with you on all points. Made the very same point a couple of posts down…you’re making it a lot more succinctly i think than i have.

          He’s disavowed him, disagreed with him and kicked Wright off his “spiritual” council (Let’s not get started on why a presidential candidate even NEEDS a spiritual council)…however i get the impression it won’t be good enough until, Obama i dunno…maybe slowly feeds Wright to piranhas for all the pain and suffering of white grandmas he’s caused.

          The dialogue America needs has been started…the point has been so far missed.
          Too much Sean Hannity will do that to a person.

          • Kevin

            Thanks… and you’re spot on:

            “The dialogue America needs has been started…the point has been so far missed.”

            But hey, it’s taken how long for this conversation to even be broached for discussion again? I hope as a nation we don’t miss the opportunity.

            • Samantha

              Kevin –

              Simon and others answered your mindless questions. Why I don’t know. Gee let’s talk about everyone who is completely unrelated to the thread…

              Or maybe we should discuss Barack Obama who is a 20 year associate of racist venom spouter Rev. Wrong, married to skag hag America hater Michelle, buddy and neighbor of I should have bombed more American office buildings William Ayers, Tony “The Fixer” Rezko, et al.

              And it’s Grandma he gives the bum rush to because the public is finally catching on to his hoodwinking.

              What a piece of work – what a jerk!

              You and Dougie Howser deserve each other.

              • Hope

                He’s really unworthy of our attention. That is why he is “shaken” tonight. He realizes he blew it and is unworthy to continue his campaign. What a fraud.

          • Kevin

            “it won’t be good enough until, Obama i dunno…maybe slowly feeds Wright to piranhas for all the pain and suffering of white grandmas he’s caused.”

            Thanks I needed that laugh!

          • Mary

            The real tell, Douglas , will be when we see Barak Obama choose to withdraw his own daughters from such a radical and divisive church.

            Think he has the courage?

          • Andy

            however i get the impression it won’t be good enough

            You got it Douglas: it is and won’t be enough. As Obama himself said Wright is part of who he is: 20 years is practically all of Obama’s adult life. Obama’s intimate relationship with Wright is a disgrace.
            Obama is unelectable and he should be.

          • BloggerBoyz

            Yeah, like Elliot Spitzer is teh most admired man in NY because of his brave anti-prostitution stand. You really don’t get points for a brave,principled stand from the electorate when you only do it after you got caught.

  • Hope

    Fade:

    Obama did not say his grandmother used the horrific “N” word. I don’t even like to type it. I see no reason for him to have included his grandmother in a nationally televised speech. He has really left himself open to severe criticism from his detractors, as well as praise from his supporters.

    I don’t think it was very presidential of him to point the finger at his grandmother. IMHO it makes him appear cowardly thus, one could conceive that if valor were today a valuable commodity, Obama might be subjected to extreme ridicule for his lack of honorable behavior. He should have taken his criticism like a man, not like a wimpy, whiney child who finds it necessary to shield himself behind the insensitive comments made by an elderly woman many years in the past – all this just to protect himself? If he compromises his private family matters, how can he be trusted to protect national security issues? He has no trouble selling out his grandmother, his own blood, why not a nation if it serves his own narcissistic interests? Where are his loyalties? Do we really even know that?

    Were his grandmother’s comments grossly insensitive – Yes! Did she also lack good judgment and self-control – Yes! Perhaps in a perfect world, she would have understood the need for discretion. Nevertheless, two wrongs do not make a right.

    Now, what could have been an otherwise eloquent and thoughtful speech has been painted a darker hue by the expedient hands of Obama’s own self-absorbed demons. This in itself illuminates the need for more detailed personal introspection on his part and also should alert any undecided voter that Obama does not at this particular time, possess the exactitude of judgment needed to wisely lead, guide and protect our nation.

    Knowledge Speaks -
    Wisdom Listens.

    Obama says too much.

    • Mary

      Obama’s grandmother was frightened ONE TIME at her bus stop by an aggressive and threatening Black beggar. Her husband and her grandson were the people she told it to….not to be racist, but to explain she felt frightened, ONCE.

      That is NOT the same as Obama’s “God damn America” 20 year relationship as a spiritual mentor and an uncle with Jeremiah “White people are all racists, and Bill Clinton did us dirty” Wright.

      Give it up, Obama supporters.

      Your “hero” protected his racist Black mentor by TRASHING unfairly, his loving White grandmother.

      Like MLK said, it’s not about the color of his skin, but about the CONTENT OF HIS CHARACTER.

      I’ll never vote for Obama. Not for dog catcher, not for school district, not for President.

      And I know a whole lot of people down here in Texas who DID vote for Obama in the primary, but never will again.

      • Hope

        Obama couldn’t hold a candle to MLK. They don’t even belong in the same sentence.

  • CognitiveDissonance

    iSteve’s post is a must-read. He tells the “real” story of that incident as Obama tells it in one of his books, and it ain’t even close! After telling the actual story, not the one in Obama’s speech, he had me howling with this comment:

    Man, what a family full of drama queens!

    • Hope

      He’s a melodrama king/queen. It is becoming so irritating that he is taking up so much time when we have such pressing issues to attend to, but here we are having to deal with his identity issues. Now he’s moaning about how his campaign is in trouble and they got mainstream just before Texas and Ohio, yada yada! Anything for attention. What next? He’s such a bore.

    • Hope

      He probably reads his own books every night before bedtime, pausing sometimes to make short trips to the upstairs bedroom mirror where he stands for at least an hour gazing at himself while practicing his, “We are the ones we’ve been waiting for” mantra.

  • jawbone

    Does anyone have Obama’s Dreams of My Father? I don’t know Steve Sailer and would like to double check that he quotes the bus stop begger incident correctly.

    Bcz to me it is damning of Obama to use this incident to paint his grandmother as racist. Also, he makes no mention of what ethnic terms made him cringe and wonder if they were mentioned in his book.

    I have requested it from my library but it may take awhile.

    Also, it seems from what is quoted that Stanley Dhnham, his grandfather, was a bit of a lefty…and had a lefty black friend to whom Obama turned to discuss what he had learned about the bus stop incident.

    Thnx.

  • Mary

    Check out these new Rasmussen Poll Numbers concerning Obama & Wright:

    58% of Americans disapprove of Obama’s fomer minister.
    Only 8% view Wright favorably.

    56% of voters polled said they were LESS likely to vote for Obama because of Wright.

    73% of voters polled said Wright’s comments were racially divisive.
    77% of those were white; 58% were African American.

    This is stunning, folks.

    Gallup Daily Tracking now shows Hillary up 49/42 ( a week ago, Obama was up 8)

    SUSA poll now shows Obama LOSING Ohio to McCain 50/43. Clinton beats McCain 50/44 in Ohio.

    Missouri in same poll shows Obama losing to McCain 53/39. Clinton only behind 48/46.

    Wright has had a significant impact on Obama’s electability; his UNFAVORABLES are now 49%.

    Stunning free fall.

    • vee

      This may be premature, but “Hooray!”

  • Terry

    Obama hates democracy, that much is clear. How many civil rights workers died to secured the right for all votes to be counted? And yet, Obama oh so cavalierly dismisses the right of the Democrats of Michigan and Florida to be heard.

    This is one Florida Democrat who will not vote for Obama for president if he is the party’s nominee. That is a promise; he doesn’t care about my vote, so why should I give it to him? I’ve written the DNC and told them as much, and all I heard in response is that the DNC would like me to renew my DNC membership by making a substantial cash contribution. When hell freezes over.

    • Hope

      Terry – You are making great points here.

    • Mary

      Well Terry, I don’t live in Florida or Michigan…..I’m a Texan.

      But I basically told the DNC the very same thing you did…..don’t call me, no money, no support…..until you guys in Florida and Michigan are reinstated.

      Lotta Democrats all over the country doing the same thing, on YOUR behalf.

      Keep the faith.

  • Retired

    ABC News’ senior blogger Jake Tapper recently noted the “Helter-Skelter cult-ish qualities” of “Obama worshipers.” Has anyone asked Charlie Manson who his choice is for President? I wouldn’t be surprised if the twisted little guy is an Obama man because he thinks that Obama can, at long last, make Helter Skelter happen. Then, according to Charlie’s well-documented beliefs, Obama won’t know how to run things and will call on Charlie and his followers to lend a hand. Too bizarro for SNL, but Second City or an out-of-the-box LA comedy club might take it on. At least before the Fruit of Obama (FOO) strike force burns the offending facility to the ground.

    • Hope

      Excuse me? Where is this coming from? LOL

      • Retired

        A sense of frustration at the absurdity of the situation that we Americans find ourselves in with regard to the election of our next President. I mean, really, according to Dick Morris, who is an astute political observer if nothing else, Obama has the Democratic nomination in the bag because Sen. Clinton will never catch him in terms of pledged delegates and the superdels won’t have the courage to deal with this situation even if Sen. Clinton has the popular vote majority.

        America is the most closely watch democracy in the world. How can we expect anyone to take democracy seriously when we are reduced to such a ridiculous, media-driven spectacle in our own affairs?

  • Hope

    Retired:

    Yes and because they are too gutless to stand up and realise that the party will lose in November as a result of their endless squabbles and refusal to face reality – that the general public will never elect Obama now that he’s proving himself to be related to some very unsavory characters.

    What a big mess. How do the Dems do this all the time? Constantly caving in – so politically correct. I think

    I can just imagine four years of McInsane.

    • Arkansas

      Hope:
      I disagree with you. It seems to me the PC thing for the DemParty to do would be to nominate Clinton, as she is the “safe, proven, experienced, establishment” candidate. I agree that the Democratic Party seems to shoot itself in the foot with internal squabbling all the time, but Obama is not the calculatingly safe/establishment candidate – so he’d be the better candidate, from a “non-PC” point of view.
      I also don’t buy the idea that Obama isn’t “electable.” It is not possible for any of us to know how someone else is definitely going to vote on election day. Nov is months away, fifty more scandals or explosive revelations are still going to come out, and the collective voting decision of the general populace (which, again, we can’t really know) will swing three different ways each time. It’s one thing to not like a candidate because of their views or positions, but pretending we know how other people will vote is neither an honest argument nor a good basis for making up one’s own mind.

      • Hope

        Arkansas,
        I’m not pretending anything nor am I presenting arguments. I am merely stating my life experience/opinion.

        I understand what you are saying and appreciate your comments.

  • mel

    People keep saying Clinton cannot pass Obama in pledged delegates, well excuse me, Obama has about a 140 point lead with over 700 pledge delegates left, including Fla and Mich! Exclude them and Republicans win easily, include them and Obama’s lead is toast as he cannot stack caucus’s anymore which is how he has the position he has, not via core state free votes!

    And come convention time, Rezko will be deep in it, so more trouble for Obama coming!

  • yourmtgbanker

    This is a perfect example of Obama’s character!! To distort the truth about his grandmother’s experience in being accosted in a potential mugging for political benefit is outrageous! Thanks for the info; I will share this with as many people as I can because Americans deserve the TRUTH not more of Obama’s fiction!

    • Hope

      He would have been the man jumping into the lifeboat off the Titanic after throwing his wife and children overboard so he could have their seats.

  • llilytoo

    The GOP WANT BO as the Dem in the fall so Senator Macgoo can win the White House. And the Elite Dems hate Clintons more than they like winning. And there you have how Obama came to be.

    BO economic advisers are social security privatizers .( ie Wall St. robbers )His backers are not from the Left…Those economic robbers who back him see his followers as laughable rubes. BO was a con from the start and when he says ” you’ve been hoodwinked ” for once, he’s being truthful!!

  • http://speaktruth speaktruth

    Dick Morris is an ass, definitely not a skilled political analyst. He’s giving the same party line Obama campaign has been pushing practically since he won Iowa – “I am the one so everyone else should just get out now.”
    Just one more example of Obama bullying techniques.
    One thing that disturbs me greatly is how well these techniques are working – ie, repeat a lie often enough and it becomes truth.
    Hillary is behind by about 120 delegates. Pennsylvania alone has over 150 delegates. If she does very well she can narrow the gap significantly. I don’t know the makeup of remaining states, whether caucuses, open primaries, etc. Maybe someone can fill us in.
    I am also wondering delegate numbers if Michigan and Florida were counted now. I suspect that would put her very close and with a good win in Pennsylvania she could be ahead.
    Which is why Michigan and Florida are so important. Very important to continue the fight! Any suggestions on actions we can take for those states.
    Re O’s grandmother – this a perfect metaphor for how his entire campaign has been run and one more reason why I and so many others are so enraged at him (or at Axelrod, et al.) All the grandmothers, grandfathers, or more specifically all loyal long-term Democrats have been thrown under the bus in favor of possible “New” and more exciting prospects they believe he will bring in to the party.
    Very very risky and stupid strategy. Worse, it raises questions of what Dems are and stand for anymore. To me it is becoming the new Repub party.

  • Open Mind

    Let’s be reasonable about this. I want ANY Democrat over ANY Republican. However, Obama has a delegate lead that cannot be surpassed unless Clinton carries on aerage 65% of the delegates for the rest of the primaries. Clinton put her name on the ballot in Michigan after agreeing not to. Florida moved up their primary because the Republican legislature tied the primary to a bill that guarateed other voting provisions that were VERY important and that screwed over the Florida voters AGAIN. But, unfortunately, it has already been agreed to that those delegates do not count.

    We want the war over. We want universal health care. We want NAFTA to be restructured, etc. I understand that campaigns can get dirty, but let’s not fracture the party in the process. If you don’t like Clinton, don’t vote for her in the primary. If you don’t like Obama, don’t vote for her in the primary. However, the number of people who are claiming they will vote for McCain if their Democratic candidate doesn’t get elected is amazing to me. We have two great candidates. Both have positives and both have negatives. It makes NO sense to destroy one of the Democrats by promoting McCain, because it will just be used as fodder for the months leading up to the election. McCain’s poll numbers have been rising while he has been sitting on the sidelines during all of this crap, he can’t even get Iran and al Qaida straight, and NO ONE IS CALLING HIM ON IT!

    • Arkansas

      Open Mind:
      Thank you for injecting some dispassionate reason. You say true and I say well said.
      O discordia.

    • Hope

      I know lifelong Democrats who are NOT going to vote at all this November because they refuse to vote for Obama and hate McCain. The rift over this is so acrimonious that my own father, an Obama supporter, isn’t speaking to me because I am a Hillary supporter.

    • Douglas

      Nicely said Open Mind.
      I find it amazing as well. There are a lot of people here who are terrified that if Obama gets the nomination Mcain will be the next President. Yet in the next breath they say they would either vote FOR Mcain if Obama got the nomination or not vote at all (Which i would suggest arguably is pretty much a vote for Mcain anyway). Astounding.

      And we talk about candidates putting themselves before the party. Thanks for the sanity.

      Cenk Uyger from the Young Turks had a great 10 minute rant about this yesterday on his show. You should check it out.

  • Arkansas

    Hope:
    Voting or not voting for a candidate should not be decided based on other people’s votes. It’s your vote, not theirs. Don’t let someone else’s vote scare you into making your decision. And if it does scare you, then you should explain to them why you are voting for your candidate. It’s your vote and your decisions – don’t vote with fear.

    • Hope

      Arkansas:

      It is difficult when one has to visit family for holidays and terrible arguments ensue over politics.
      I won’t be intimidated into changing my ideas. Dad is an old time FDR Democrat and doesn’t think a woman should be running – thinks she is stealing his right to run for the presidency! LOL

      This is off topic: Do you know where BeBe (sp) Arkansas is? Grandpa was from there!

  • TJ

    Did you read Steve’s blog? The point is his family doesn’t have a racist past so, yes, he did throw her under the bus.Being afraid of one particular black man does not a racist make. As a woman, I can easily see how she could be afraid of any man who wouldn’t leave her alone.

  • Mary

    Fade,

    When did the Obama campaign begin playing the race card?

    Oh yeah….when Obama fell behind.

  • Samantha

    Fade,

    Your grandparents sound like the black stand-up comedians of today.

    Racism is still here, and we’ve got work to do to make it better.

    strong>Reverse racism. You clearly don’t work in the legal justice system where blacks harm other blacks (and whites).

    You clearly don’t work for a large corporation where blacks like Michelle Obama are given preferential treatment.

    You clearly didn’t attend an ivy league school where blacks like Michelle Obama get free educations and gain admission with worse grades than whites.

    The Obamas just like their cretin of a preacher teach hate and white blame instead of personal accountability.

    Not a drop of responsible leadership from the Obamas and Rev Wrong.

    People who love their country shouldn’t want a greedy opportunist and hate monger in office, so it is our civic duty to out Obama.

    God bless Hillary Clinton and the USA.

  • simon

    Tripe like this HELPS THE REPUBLICANS. Stop it, Goddamnit!

    No criminal lying candidate should be elected, all should be exposed.

    So you’re asking people to stop exposing Obama’s lies.

    Why?