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Where Is the Outrage?

Florida and Michigan are probably not going to have re-votes.  I have acknowledged the reality but I refuse to accept it as legitimate.  Do you think that automatic delegates and party leaders such as Bill Richardson would be asking the party to unite behind Hillary Clinton if Barack Obama had been denied an opportunity to close the gap by seating delegations from Michigan and Florida or holding new elections?

If the situation were reversed, would people be acting any differently?  Would Maureen Dowd and Frank Rich be writing editorials attacking Hillary Clinton for dragging her feet?  Would Jesse Jackson, Jr. be on television accusing the Clintons of discriminating against black voters in Michigan?  Would Keith Olbermann be giving a “Special Comment” about how Hillary Clinton–no excuse, me, her advisors–are disenfranchising voters to serve her own self-interests?

Let’s be clear.  If Barack Obama were in second place, and needed new contests in Michigan and Florida, Howard Dean would be moving heaven and earth to get those new contests. John Kerry and Dick Durbin would not be urging Barack Obama to step aside.  Chris Dodd would not be calling on the candidates to split the delegates equally.

Oh no, there would be outrage.  There would protests in the street.  There would be talk of a third party.  There would a movement to finance an independent campaign for Barack Obama.

Where are the angry party leaders?  Where are the indignant editorials in the New York Times?  Where is the outrage?  

For Hillary and her supporters, there is no outrage.  Why?

Two words:   Clinton Rules.

Because this candidate is a Clinton and Washington liberal elite has never liked the Clintons.  

Because this candidate is a woman and the Democratic Party doesn’t care about appearing sexist.  

Because the Democratic Party is taking Hillary’s supporters for granted.  Clinton’s base includes the Democratic Party’s most loyal and most vulnerable–older voters, women, Hispanics, blue collar workers, and gays and lesbians.  Where else are we going in November?  Obama’s independents and younger voters might not show up on election day, but Howard Dean and Barack Obama expect us to be good little sheep and follow the leader:

“I am confident I will get her votes if I’m the nominee,” Obama stressed. “It’s not clear she would get the votes I got if she were the nominee.”

What it boils down to is that we don’t matter.

But as much as party leaders want us to just go away, Democratic voters are having none of that.  A recent poll by Rasmussen shows that voters aren’t ready for this race to end:

A solid majority of Democrats, 62%, aren’t ready for either candidate to leave the race. Nationally, Clinton and Obama are running essentially even among Likely Democratic Primary Voters in the Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll.

Forty-seven percent (47%) of Obama supporters think Clinton should drop out. Thirty-eight percent (38%) of Clinton supporters say Obama should drop out. Those who remain undecided are a bit more likely to suggest that Obama should leave. But, it’s worth noting that less than half of Obama supporters say Clinton should withdraw, less than half of Clinton supporters say Obama should withdraw, and less than half of undecided voters say either should withdraw at this time.

Much to the dismay of the Bill Richardson, Chris Dodd, and the rest of the “Throw Hillary from the Train” crowd, equal numbers of voters want Obama out as want Hillary out:

Twenty-two percent (22%) of Democratic voters nationwide say that Hillary Clinton should drop out of the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination. However, the latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that an identical number–22%–say that Barack Obama should drop out.

As much as Nancy Pelosi and Teddy Kennedy may not like it, this isn’t over. We’re not going away.  We’re going to stay right here reminding Democrats that there is a double-standard in this party.  We’re going to remind Democrats that party leaders are allowing voters to be disenfranchised at the expense of our candidate.  

Most importantly, we’re going to remember.

We’re going to remember that when it came time for party elders to show some leadership and stand up for all Democrats, they chose not to.

Oh no.  This isn’t over and we won’t forget.

  • http://1strepublic14thstar.blogspot.com/ 1st Republic 14th Star

    Right on. Like in so many other areas of American life, in politics no one cares about the evenhandedness of the process anymore. All that matters is the outcome. Did my candidate win? Then the process was fair.

  • grtphoto

    As my husband says in such situations; who benefits? For the life of either of us I cannot figure out who is the real beneficiary of his candidacy and possible presidency, it has to be more than just clinton hatred. I understand that some of the old guard Dems may be jealous of her running, esp after their failed attempts etc. What is in it for the other’s; i.e. the corp media? I have pulled my hair out for too long trying to understand. Maybe someone here could truly investigate who benefits?

  • John

    I’m reminded of this hypocricy with every new DNC fundraising letter. “Won’t you help us Restore Democracy to Washington, DC?” “Won’t you help us Save Our Country?” “We can’t afford another four years of Republican rule!” “DON’T ALLOW THE REPUBLICANS TO STEAL ANOTHER ELECTION!”…..

    No, don’t allow Republicans to take your votes from you. Let US do it. Support US as we force candidates from the race, bully and cheat to favor one candidate over the other, and disenfranchise voters in (at least) two states to do it.

    Pass. Democratic Party corruption is Still Corruption. No party has a moral right to my vote. And if Obama is the nominee, the Democrats will NOT GET MINE.

    What fine entrepreneur is going to print up those Write In Hillary ’08 stickers? My five dollars is waiting!

  • http://www.reflectivepundit.com Brigitte N.

    You got it–there is no outrage about whatever outraged things happen. I have spent a great deal of time in the last several years to trace how the mainstream media handled the troubling “issue” of torturing terrorist and–mostly, alleged terrorists. Neither the revelations about the Justice Department’s Torture Memos, the admission of waterboarding selected terrorists, nor President Bush’s early this month’s vetoing of legislation that would have prohibited torture categorically resulted in elite (media) or public opposition.
    Unfortunately, that’s what has happened to post-9/11 America.

  • mel

    What is so funny, is which groups fund the DNC, is it the college students who are flocking to Obama on a rock star status in Rolling Stoned, is it the Democrats for a day, who are abandoning Obama after they voted? Hardly, it is those supporting Hillary who are the majority funders, and Dean and Pesoli are sticking their heads in the sand of reality thinking Obama will bring in the money he is breaking the backs of a lot of his grass root supporters right now, so if he is the nominee, watch the change from bundled lobbyists becomes more open because of the need of money!
    You don’t fake out the long distance run winner and champion by putting a 100 yd dasher against them in a 26km marathon!

  • Psychodrew

    Exactly. We are expected to support an unfair outcome because we are loyal progressives. Nobody cares about screwing us over, but we can’t do anything to offend Obama’s college students and Republicans.

  • OldCoastie

    grtphoto – I think who benefits are the old guard in the Senate who support Obama – I suspect they will run his butt up and down Capitol, getting whatever they want.

    Hillary’s got her own ideas about what she wants from her presidency. She, on the other hand, wants the Senate to pass her agenda and that’s just too much to bear if you are an old guy with a giant ego.

  • yttik

    I’m outraged. I can’t get anymore outraged. I’m not voting Democrat if 2 million people are disenfranchised.

    I’ve gone from deciding to support whoever the Dem nominee is, to voting third party, to deciding to sit the election out. I’m now at the point of actively campaigning for McCain if Obama bamboozles his way to the nomination. I’m going to toss away 30 years of Democratic party support, that’s how outraged I am.

    The Democratic party has violated my trust. They’ve also condoned a whole lot of misogyny with their silence. They could have spoken up against some of the media’s blatent sexism, like they would have had Obama been subjected to racist attacks.

  • grtphoto

    I agree, and that is partially what I was alluding to. Do you think their are also corp. interests he is owe ing favors to?

  • Alibe

    I am so angry I can hardly think straight. Those God damn Democrats that can dismiss me because I support Hillary Clinton as our nominee and think I will just automatically rally to this party that REFUSED to impeach these criminals, and now stands up for Obama and criticizes Hillary because she won’t iron his shirts, and walk ten paces behind. Well I am disgusted with them. I just sent her more money. And I didn’t send her money to drop out and let that crybaby have his lying way. He is about as appealing as Karl Rove, and just as big a liar. I will not be told to vote for Obama or I’m a racist. These Obamaloons are so arrogant. They don’t even have the decency to show Hillary or her supporters any respect at all. Well, lets see how they manage without our votes and money, come the fall.

  • Psychodrew

    I’m just as angry as you are, but I’ve decided to vote for the nominee this time, even if the party leaders do tip the scales to Obama.

  • Thrasyboulos

    Cui bono?

    Those who would continue Bush’s foreign policy via McCain are exploiting a wedge in the Democratic Party. Obama is their only option.

    Also, old scores are being settled against the Clintons, with a part of the Obama faction oblivious to it’s prospective doom in the general, and another not really giving a damn, since McCain is who they’re really after.

    Someone asked in another thread why are (some of) the same people financing Obama and McCain. The answer is because Obama as the nominee and McCain as president will solve their Bush at 25% problem.

    Too cospiratorial? The proof will be when the media turns against Obama, big time, should he be handed the nomination by Dean and Company. Watch.

  • Dem_base

    If Clinton gets railroaded, and two states of voters ignored, not only will I not vote for Obama, I will ignore Democrats all the way down the ticket.

    My 22 years of voting Dem will go out the window and an Independent I will become.

    The outage so many of us feel will not go away after a few months and some pretty speeches. We will not “calm down” with a little time.

    The Democratic party is assuming women will get in line – and they are dead wrong. It’s time to send a message loud and clear.

    NObama ’08

  • grtphoto

    I totally agree with all of you, I don’t know what to do with my disgust and serious sadness as to what is happening. I can only debate with my husband so much, (were on the same side) before going crazy. I’m not sure they will miss our votes. I’m definitely changing my regis. back to Independent. I feel naive to have trusted that all we needed was the Dems to get into Congress to get the “right” things done.

  • grtphoto

    Love NObama ’08 you should make some bumper stickers.

  • 30 yrdem

    The outrage is here they just are not listening to us. We are outraged so much so we will not vote for Obama. He could never win in the GE. If the democratic party wants to loose let them put him out there with his Reverend Wright. With the 2 disenfranchised states. With his lack of experience. What a joke he is. We are going to be saying President McCain in 2009.

  • http://www.despair.com/changewinds.html Smilin’ Jim

    “Where is the outrage?”

    Let that either be an ironic or a rhetorical question.

    I would have picked something other than Bob Dole’s tag line. It didn’t work for him either.

    The visible bunch following Obama are the True Believers. Leaving the quest for self and Eric Hoffer aside for the moment, this maps into viciousness the greater the degree of ardency. (The whiny component follows proportionately and is the very reason they are so much fun to pick on.)

    It has always been thus. And it will get worse.

    So suck it up, it’s going to be a long slog.

    There will come a reckoning.

  • Dem_base

    I did not come up with the NObama slogan – although I wish I had.

    People already are selling the bumper stickers at

    http://www.nobama.org/.

    I have a few already.

  • 30 yrdem

    One more thing, I can’t scream any louder….if the shoe were on the other foot the party leaders would break their backs to get the re-votes done! The democratic party is going to loose a lot of us, but they don’t seem to care.

  • Fleaflicker

    I haven’t quite reached the same decision but I am getting close to it. We are watching the Democratic party betray itself. And I will not be a part of it in November should these cultists win out.

  • http://thehorizontalworld.blogspot.com/ Mary Jo Kopechne

    Oh baby, I’m outraged. Read this if you dare, but be warned, it’s R-rated.

    http://thehorizontalworld.blogspot.com/

  • grtphoto

    Thank you, I will check it out.

  • grtphoto

    I’m not sure if that will happen, believe me I am a skeptic and take very few of these individuals telling me how to feel and think seriously at all. I’m not confident in the power structure ever changing until they feel the pain they have caused. It is already a loaded game, how is that going to change short of a pitch fork revolt?

  • Andy

    The outrage is here. We, Clinton supporters (or at least substantial part of her supporters) are outraged. We don’t mind the competition; but we mind the cheap tactics, we mind the charade:
    the clowns in the media selling to public a nominee and the DNC tactics of disenfranchising millions voters and crass bullying of Clinton. We mind they insulting our intelligence every day.
    The media doesn’t care, the DNC doesn’t care, Kennedy, Kerry, Dodd, Richardson don’t care: precesily because of what you PsychoDrew point out. They take us for granted. And many Clinton supporters will find a way of convincing themselves to vote for Obama if he is the nominee in the GE. But many of us won’t. Because he is not qualified to be
    the US President first and because of Wright, Meeks, Ayres and Rezko.

    I will not forget; and I will not forget either about one of my two senators who is coming up for reelection.

  • mexicomystic

    I think there’s lots of outrage, especially from “typical white women” like me! I’ve expressed that outrage to, among others, Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, and the DNC. But who’s listening? Where’s the media to capture all this outrage? No one cares about me at the moment, but I guarantee that if Obama is the nominee they’ll care a great deal about me. And if/when that time comes, I’ll take great enjoyment in telling them all exactly what I think of them.

    And I won’t be voting for Obama. I’ll vote for everything else on the ballot, but for the first time in 40 years of voting, I won’t be placing a vote for president.

    I’m outraged, and the only way I have to express that is in the voting booth in November.

  • J

    Susan,

    thank goodness hillary has made it clear, absolutely clear over the past 48 hrs that she has NO INTENTION OF DROPPING OUT of the race. thankfully hillary is ignoring the lamebrain dnc chair dean, errant sen. dodd, and leahy, speaker pelosi, and the media attack dogs who have all put out the lying claim that she can’t win and therefore she should drop out .

    hillary’s resolve to carry her campaign all the way to the convention has finally registered with some of the dimwits in our msm. mar 30 wapo published a lead editorial – don’t stop campaigning’ which urges hillary to stay in the race and lambasts obama backers wh are trying to get her to quit.

    the intimidation tactics employed up to this point to sink hillary have failed, and hopefully may backfire on the dimwits like dean. it appears that hillary’s enemies are going to have to play it some other way.

    when hillary uses common sense approaches like what fdr employed (for the good of the people, and the ‘common good’ clause of our constitution), it causes fear and dread through out the brit crown.

  • Andy

    I’m just as angry as you are, but I’ve decided to vote for the nominee this time, even if the party leaders do tip the scales to Obama.

    But isn’t this the very reason of why they take us for granted?

  • grtphoto

    This thread is really hitting home with me and your choice of “charade” is exactly a point I have made in the past; I resent the cheating, and lying and dirty tricks, I don’t for one second believe the media favors him over her, I think it purely by default; clinton hatred. Basically I resent being B.S.’d! They will not get my vote, I cannot cheat myself by voting for him at the last minute, too bad Dem. party.

  • simon

    Do you think their are also corp. interests he is owe ing favors to?

    Yeah, starting with Auchi, look at his IL history, who supported him, who the IL “players” are involved with, who is on Fitzgerald’s hit list.

    Someone also mentioned oil, connect the dots.

    And the best they could find was some legacy half wit out of Harvard?

    Doesn’t say much for Obama’s recruiters, now, does it?

  • Percy

    Here ye … I am outraged and if somehow Obama is the nominee…. I will vote against him….giving my vote to the candidate most likely to beat him. This has nothing to do with my support for Hillary. Obama and the DNC have lost my trust.

  • Lin

    NObama is good. I also love a new one that is out there: It is Obama’s log of HOPE with the “O” changed to a “Y” so that it reads: HYPE…

    We are getting very creative in taking our country back, yes we are…

  • Lin

    meant “logo” not log.

  • Gloria

    You bet we’ll remember…at least I will! I’m one of those under-valued, older women voters! This is what I wrote:

    “I’m Gonna Harden My Heart”
    http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/

    I’m gonna harden my heart

    I’m gonna swallow my tears
    I’m gonna harden my heart
    I’m gonna swallow my tears
    Harden my heart…harden my heart…
    swallow my tears
    I’m gonna harden my heart….

    –Quarterflash

    This oldie but goodie has been playing in my mind over the last few days. I think I knew I had to go find the lyrics last night, though, as I composed a response to a post I read on another blog.

    I can’t vote for Obama if he is the nominee. At this point, it’s become visceral. I won’t go into a detailed explanation right now, because my views have been expressed by many others on many of the blogs on my Blogroll.

    Please note, there ARE people I will be voting for in November, so I won’t be a “stay-at-home voter.” I’ll vote for our Senate nominee, Udall, with great enthusiasm. And I will NEVER, NEVER vote McCain!!

    But the reality is that my feelings go WAY BEYOND Obama! It’s what the party has been doing over the years…

    Read more »

  • simon

    I’m just as angry as you are, but I’ve decided to vote for the nominee this time, even if the party leaders do tip the scales to Obama

    No, I won’t tolerate sophistry, voting for a man who is corrupt.

    What possible justification can you have, really?

    He took money, is highly connected to Saddam’s bagman, given the current scenario.

    What, for starters, do you think the implications are, for the United States government, worldwide, say, the greater implications, of the candidate taking money from Saddam’s bagman, being closely connected to him, and the war, a stooge, say, much like the most of the British government ?

    Auchi is one of the richest men in the world, someone mentioned to me they felt he was responsible for corrupting the British government.

    Do you know, drew?

    And does that make Obama a part of the problem, in the middle east?

  • John

    Let’s all plan to hold a rump convention somewhere in Denver at the same time as the DNC/Obama convention. Let’s make sure we have people from Michigan and Florida there.

    Then, after the sham convention across town nominates The Chosen One, let’s nominate Hillary for President with Wes Clark as her running mate, and dedicate ourselves to getting her name on the ballot in all fifty states.

    It’s been done before. Are we less Progressive now than we were in 1912? Is it easier to swallow a stolen nomination now than it was then? Not for me.

    I’m sure we can find a High School Gym, a public park, somewhere, ANYWHERE, to hold our Progressive Democratic Convention.

  • simon

    much like most of the British government, sorry, added an extra “the…”

  • grtphoto

    Doesn’t mean they were or are the sharpest group, they just were betting that we wouldn’t look too deep. He was “handpicked” by a group of who? Just like W, for 2000. Part of my opinion is that their calculation was his ethnicity, that we would just look and say wow, how progressive and not vett him at all.

  • yttik

    LOL, good rant. Yep, I’d say you’re outraged.

  • MarkL

    Obama’s surrogates are real close to losing their cool.
    Once a few of the Obama team are heard using anatomical terms for Hillary, we’ll be back in business.

  • Andy

    What did they say?

  • simon

    Those who would continue Bush’s foreign policy via McCain are exploiting a wedge in the Democratic Party. Obama is their only option

    Those who would continue Bush’s foreign policy are not realistic, it seems as if they have very limited scope in understanding the realistic outcome of their plans. In their case, it’s wishful thinking, as opposed to hardcore bulletproof strategy. They simply cannot calculate how they are being gamed.

    It’s one thing to THINK you can win in this manner, but when your planner is unable to understand the greater dynamics at play, it loses.

    Period.

    Obama is not a talent, Obama is not even what they really want. But they don’t see it, because those corporate interests are not themselves that smart.

    Too cospiratorial?

    Not when it comes to money.

    People will do anything for money.

    But like love, money can’t buy you brians, either.

    I guess the trick is to use their mode of attack against them.

  • reality based

    A lot of the good ole’ boys (and girls) in the Democratic Party must think that the Republicans will not be able to pin “Rev.” Wright on them come their next election. They might want to talk to former Senator Max Cleland about that. If Obama becomes the nominee the Democratic Party will be toxic for years to come in many parts of the country. Howard, Donna, Ted and Teresa and their buddies need to be told that my becoming an independent rather than a Democrat will apply to down ballot races as well as the Presidency. (I’m convinced they generally don’t much care about the top of the ticket as long as they get reelected themselves.)

  • simon

    But like love, money can’t buy you brians, either.

    or brains, either.

    I guess I think of Obama, and Jesus, I think of “the Life of Brian,” because well, Obama isn’t Jesus, Obama is really Brian.

  • wac for hillary

    Psychodrew, I respect your right to vote for Obama if he is the nominee, but I won’t. I will never forget what Dean and his cohorts have done to deny Democrats a full and fair election, and I will not forgive. I worry more about Obama actually becoming President than McCain getting the nod. I just have this bad feeling that there are people and organizations backing Obama that are still hidden from us. I don’t for a minute believe that his campaign money is coming primarily from grassroots individuals. I look on Obama as another GWB with some power broker(s) pulling all the strings while Obama acts the part of king.

  • Paula

    John, I’m with you! Let’s start talking about this and doing some research. I feel no loyalty to thid party anymore and I will not vote for a candidate that clearly has no business running for the position of the POTUS.

  • Andy

    I already did that with Deval Patrick… what’s that saying “fool me once…”

    And the SCOTUS threat doesn’t work with me either. I thought about that really carefully. Will vote Dems straight down the list for Congress; and they are more likely to get a majority than Obama be elected if he is the nominee so Congress better get their act together and do their jobs putting the breaks with the confirmation of unacceptable SC nominees.

  • Psychodrew

    My family lives in WV and my parents are blue collar Hillary supporters. When Teddy endorsed Obama, my mother told me that the consensus among a lot of her friends was that Teddy did it so he could play puppet master. In my hometown, voters like results, not hype. Hillary will delivers results, the Obama’s and the Kennedy’s are all hype.

  • Psychodrew

    But isn’t this the very reason of why they take us for granted?

    I concede the point. You are completely right. But I am a gay voter and I currently experiencing a great deal of personal turmoil because of the marriage laws in the States. I just can’t bring myself to vote for McCain or sit this one out. It’s a personal issue for me.

    I completely respect those who can’t vote for Obama, but if it comes down to it, I’ll hold my nose and vote for him. Of course, I still haven’t given up hope that I will get to vote for Hillary!

  • Psychodrew

    I honestly haven’t read anything on this. Could you post the link?

    Thanks!

  • Psychodrew

    How would the party and the media be reacting if Hillary’s surrogates were threatening Obama’s supporters with primary challenges as Jesse Jackson, Jr. has done to Reps. Lewis, Rangel, Jackson-Lee, and others?

    It would be quite different, I believe.

  • Melissa

    The outrage is there, simmering, simmering, simmering. I see it every day in many blogs, I hear it at work, in the store, in my e-mails and phone conversations.
    The women I know are outraged, the men I know are outraged. Sons and daughters, sisters and brothers, mothers and fathers- Oh yes we are outraged!
    Who do these people think they are? I know who they think I am. They believe, falsely, that I will fall in line “for the good of the party.” They think I will go meekly along with their diabolical deed. They threaten me with SCOTUS and reproductive rights for the next generation of women.
    I divorced the last prick that threatened and beat me!
    If they really meant the good of the party, tehy would stop trying to foist a fraud they can control on the American people.

  • http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20080330_Obama_was_the_first_to_play_the_race_card.html?text=med Alibe

    Obama was the first to play the race card

    Editorial in the Philadelphia Inquirer

  • Alibe
  • John

    Hopefully Larry and Susan will pick this up and and run with it- if Hillary is cheated out of the nomination, nothing is stopping us from forming a new Democratic-Progressive Party to give a home to all the REAL Democrats (as opposed to “Democrats for a Day”) who are considering just staying home on Election Day- an event that could turn control of the Senate and House back to the GOP.

    And if Hillary refuses our nomination, we organize a massive write-in movement for her.

    I’m not conceding defeat for the Regular Democratic Nomination yet, but as far as I’m concerned, Hillary is the only nominee who could have any legitimacy. Michigan, Florida, Texas, rigged caucuses– If Obama “wins” the nomination, I will never be convinced he did it on the Up and Up.

  • tiffany

    I agree totally. The Dem party is taking us for granted. If we vote against them, we may suffer a few years(maybe not) but they will never treat us like crap again. I will take four years’ sacrifice for infinite years of respect.

  • John

    WELL SAID TIFFANY!!

  • tiffany

    I wish some influential organization had the clout to organize a march, a visible protest or anything besides venting on the computer. People around the world take to the streets. Here in the USA we sit at the computer! Larry and Sue, help us plan something!

  • mimi

    Psychodrew,

    You should be aware of the abject homophobia coming out of the black community. I know, I’m AA. People like Jesse Jackson,Jr., Roland Martin, Rev Meeks think homosexuality is a sin. Look to be disappointed in what Obama will do for the gay community.

  • MarkL

    No no,.. i’m just imagining what will happen in the next few days.

  • Dem_base

    Hey John I understand where you are coming from but Hillary is a sitting Democratic senator. A third party candidacy would be a betrayal to her constitutes and a very expensive undertaking this late in the game. Her political career would be over if she did that.

    I have no problem writing in Hillary as a protest vote if the choices are McCain/Obama. If your state uses electronic ballots – you may need to apply for an absentee ballot in order to write a candidate in.

    If she loses the nom and it goes to BO – he will get trounced in the GE and McCain will get 4 years. If Hill wanted to she could try again then.

    For folks who are interested there’s more info on the Progressive Party (1912) check out the wiki: http://tinyurl.com/2j7eot

    On the 1912 election: http://tinyurl.com/2ofms4

  • mimi

    I have the same bad feeling. Besides, we HAVE to teach the Party a lesson. That would be some change we could depend on.

  • simon

    He was “handpicked” by a group of who?

    Start with rezko, and his connections.

    Stuart Levine, who is on trial with Rezko, testified Rezko said to him ” I want to make a President.” His first pick was Governor Blagojevich, apparently didn’t work out.

    How are Obama and Rezko connected?

    Where do Rezko’s connections go, other than Auchi? Maybe Exxon, Syrian criminality, Russia?

    Who knows, but we’ll find out.

    The trial resumes again, tomorrow, they were on spring break, this past week. ( I had no idea courts went on spring break…)

    According to Levine, Rezko “controlled the central apparatus,” meaning the governor’s office. A peek into his IL dealings is a peak into the criminal Washington infrastructure, too.

    Try the Chicago Tribune, and Rezkowatch, you will learn more about Obama, and understand WHY Chicago and English reporters are HORRIFIED, if not somewhat amused, and disgusted, by his candidacy.

    Which governments has Auchi touched the most?

    England, actually most of Europe, and IL must have something in common.

    And Russia, lately, I’ve been seeing blips here and there about Russia, too, in conjunction with this mess.

    I mean, we all know how business goes, it’s the same for criminalities.

  • mimi

    “think I will just automatically rally to this party that REFUSED to impeach these criminals, and now stands up for Obama and criticizes Hillary because she won’t iron his shirts, and walk ten paces behind. Well I am disgusted with them. I just sent her more money.”

    Ditto!

    I thought I was the only one who felt this way about the impeachment failure. Actually, the Party lost my loyalty on not moving to impeach Bush/Cheney. So there’s no need for them to blame Hillary.

    Look in the mirror, jackasses!

  • DisenfranchisedVoter

    Thank you for this great post. If Obama wins the nomination because he disenfranchised MI and FL and his supporters Dean, Pelosi, and Brazile force Clinton out of the race before the convention, you can be sure that Obama will lose the general election. I know that a lot of you here would be willing to start a website and national campaign to get Clinton supporters to protest this then write-in Hillary rather than vote for Obama.

    When the jerks at MSNBC go into shock because their messiah gets creamed by McCain in the general, we can refer them to this post and the anger that all of us have right now. I will never vote for Obama. It is too late for anyone, even Hillary, to convince me that Obama deserve to be president. He is a thug. I am so glad that ther are others out there who agree with me and that more than 1/4 of Clinton supporters now say they will not vote for Obama. That is probably the one good thing to come from all of this. Clinton supporters won’t allow Obama to get away with this. Obama, Dean, Pelosi, and the rest of them will pay soon enough.

  • http://speaktruth speaktruth

    Re what media will do once Obama is nominee:
    Kim Fredericks who did those fantastic videos of the Texas caucuses sent the phone video to Greta Vansustren, Fox News blog. I went to the link (linked from Confluence, I think), excited to see what Greta would do with it.
    Greta’s comment was that she didn’t understand the meaning of the video. My first thought was that she was really dumb and how’d she get her own show, even on Fox. Then I thought not dumb, disingenuous! Who knows how many of these stories, videos, are being held by various media until he is nominee. Then they’ll release all, as if brand new.
    They need to be inundated with these stories, different people, Scarborough, Dobbs, Abrams, Fox. Stories of caucuses, videos, etc.

  • AF catfish

    Here’s some outrage – who’s listening?

    According to a Miami Herald poll earlier this week, 24% of Florida
    Democrats say they are less likely to support the ultimate Democratic
    candidate if their votes in the primary don’t count.

  • Nancy H. Armstrong

    This woman will never get in line with a DNC leadership that disenfranchises the voters of 2 states and takes my vote for granted. I am a new Democrat who won’t be in November if Obama is the nominee. And the reason for that is Obama also takes my vote for granted.

    Just say no to the kool-aid. Just say no to Obama.

    Hillary ’08

  • mimi

    “If Clinton gets railroaded, and two states of voters ignored, not only will I not vote for Obama, I will ignore Democrats all the way down the ticket.”

    This is my plan too.

    As far as speeches are concerned, I’m already in a 90% media blackout for over a month. I WILL NOT WATCH the convention and this will be the first one I’ve missed. So I won’t hear their stupid speeches.

    It’s time to deprive the biased networks of their advertising revenue.

  • TeakWoodKite

    When the power goes out and that computer becomes a better boat anchor, trust me, the streets will be full of very dissapointed “True Believers”

    tiffany, lead. what would you do?

  • yttik

    I suspect he was handpicked, too. I think Obama is a perfect set up for Democrats. This whole thing just feels so scripted.

    Weren’t Obama and Ken Mehlman classmates? Mehlman creeps me out, he’s now working on “political intelligence for corporate clients.”

  • mimi

    Things have come to that!

    I just can’t get over the way the Party has basically said kiss their butt. And the way the media has insulted my intelligence with their biased war against Hillary.

    No mas! I really don’t care what anyone else is doing and if I’m a lone wolf. NObama 08!

  • Marco

    I understand the raw feelings going on here, but Hillary made it clear this past week. There’s no way one should vote for the GOP monkey in the race.

    I agree with her and will still back the party nominee, as much as it pains me to do so for the reasons mentioned in this thread and more than a few others. I know I could not sleep at night if my inaction or refusal to vote D elected John McCain to office. Barack Dukakis, on his worst day, is still better than John on his finest.

    I still believe Hillary can pull this out. She knows how to fight and it’s still only the 7th inning. But if she doesn’t, McSame is going to deliver 4 years of just that and I am unsure if the republic can stand it.

  • http://speaktruth speaktruth

    John,
    I like your idea.
    What I understand is that written in candidates are not counted at all.
    I agree there is little likelihood that Hillary would leave the party I know people run on two tickets all the time in local elections. Maybe she could run on Progressive ticket without leaving the party.
    I know it’s unlikely to happen, but I can us holding an alternate convention as a protest and a statement. If she got a sizable number it would get lots of publicity, show party not to take us for granted. It would mess up Obama winning, and I personally do not want McCain but – we have to do something. Maybe the face that it is being planned will make them think.
    They also need to know that it’s not coming from Clinton, not so much out of love for her as it is our not accepting Obama.
    Nobama is good slogan for that reason. I’ve been saying for a while, anyone but Obama.
    Also, look what happened when Lieberman ran as Independent. No one expected him to win either.

  • TeakWoodKite

    said to him ” I want to make a President…So did Emil Jones…

  • mimi

    I agree. I’m not going to put Hillary on the spot. She is the Senator from my state.

    This is between ME and the Democratic Party. I have made the decision and I OWN IT! It’s the first I am making as an Independent voter.

  • Andy

    Do you know what Obama did to the Mayor of SF ?

  • Andy

    PsychoDrew: Do you know what Obama did to the Mayor of SF ?

  • Betty

    I won’t vote for Obama either, I will vote for McCain. You are right about the old guard, did you hear Kerry on tv this morning? He said right out that they do not intend to support Universal Health Care, he said it was a non starter. How many Americans are in favor of Universal Health Care? These are people we can impact in any way, they disregard us continuously. And if Obama is defeated and McCain is the new president there world is unchanged. That is what made me so mad at Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid there was nothing you could say or do to them to get them to represent us.
    They just took the punishment and did what they wanted or were told to do. Remember Harry Reids fake filibuster?

    I say, and I am convinced of it, that we are fighting a revolution, we who support Hillary. The forces arrayed against Hillary are just to huge. They never thought that the primary would go on so long and that we would begin to see their dirty hand prints on our nominating process.
    Here is a old Irish prayer:

    God bless the hearts of those who love us;
    God turn the hearts of those who don’t love us;
    God, if you can’t turn their hearts, turn their ankles, so that we may know them by their limping

    .

    I have written doen the names of a few limpers these past few months.

  • Andy

    It would be quite different, I believe.

    Absolutely, I have no doubt about that.

  • mimi

    My Nov vote will be based on the polls in my state. NY is a pretty predictable blue state so I probably can NOT vote or write in without it helping Obama. But if it looks close for some reason and that Obama could actually lose NY, then I will be more than happy to tip the scales. Especially since as an AA, they’ll be convinced that I will be voting for him.

    I think people should consider what’s going on in their own state since it’s about Electoral Votes. Not voting for McCain in a tight race would be a vote for Obama.

  • Andy

    TeakWookKite:

    Pay attention to Dem_Base post here. It has the answer to you question about “write in” another candidate’s name in CA with electronic ballots.

  • Dem_base

    Did some quick research and some states require write in candidates to be “certified” before you can write them in to be counted. So an organized write in protest campaign could be very difficult.

    A protest vote for McCain or Nadar or sitting it out (man, not taking advantage of our right to vote pains me)could be the only way to go.

    Marco, I respect your opinion, and we must all vote by our own conscious.

    I am unsure if the world or the Republic can stand another 4 years without someone like Hillary Clinton as the U.S. President and I will not condone the actions that may work to prevent her from getting where we all need her to be. To me voting for Obama is condoning the actions above and I will not do it.

  • Betty

    I am never really clear enough.
    I think the public officials who turn their back on common sense, and core democratic principles by stepping out in public to tell Hillary to get out of the race rather then to demand that FLA and MI primaries be recognized and their delegates seated are the ones who are leaving dirty hand-prints on our nomination process. They are the limpers.
    But then I agree with another comment I read here that we really have no idea who is behind Obama.

  • DisenfranchisedVoter

    I am urging all of the Clinton supporters I know not to vote for Obama. I understand how hard it is for many of us to vote for a Republican. I still plan to write in Hillary if she does not win. But voting for a Democrat doesn’t always make things much better. Especially when that candidate is illigitimate and won with the help of the establishment to disenfranchise voters. I cannot respect anyone who does that Democrat or Republican.
    A disastrous Dubya-like presidency under Democratic rule can be just as bad for us as four years of McCain. I know many Clinton supporters who will vote for McCain because at least they know who he is. Some might disagree with his political beliefs but you have to admit that he is more of a hero and patriot than Obama will ever be. Rev. Wright is not going away. I’m sure many of us will become even more disgusted during the general when we all know the GOP and FOX will release Wright’s greatest hits with new video that might even contain Obama sitting in those pews. This is why Democrats are considered to be unpatriotic and unworthy of the presidency. How can Democrats elect someone like this without expecting backlash sooner or later? We are going to lose so many Reagan Democrats and working class white voters to the Republican party I don’t even know how we will ever recover.
    We need Hillary. I know she is the only person right now who can fix this party and do great things once she is in office. I refuse to settle for Obama.

  • bayathena

    Sorry Marco:

    As JFK once said, sometimes party loyalty demands too much.

    And frankly, the nation could do worse than John McCain. That worse is Barack Obama.

    Unspoken in all the debate is the central issue of McCain’s candidacy: more than anyone else in American life, he deserves to be President. He is a genuine American hero who has given his life to the service of the nation. And while one might disagree with some of his positions, one can never question his love for this country.

    His new campaign ad plays on that love and reminds voters of his sacrifice in a North Vietnamese prison. Compare that to Obama’s paltry record and his lack of passion about America. When voters compare Cindy McCain to Michelle Obama, there is no question who they will choose to be First Lady.

    I too am a life long Democrat. I am pulling for Hillary to win. But if she doesn’t, I,who split my time between New York and Florida where I now vote, cannot vote for a man who disenfranchised Florida Democrats.

    I too will vote for McCain in good conscience. I do not see him as the Devil but as a patriot. IF we can get four good years out of him, OK. Then its Hillary in 2012.

  • mimi

    Everyone certainly has to follow their own mind. But in 1988 the Dem Party pissed me off and I did the unthinkable and voted for Bush Sr. Well I made it through those 4 years and was estatic when it resulted in a 2 term Democratic Presidency and some really good years in the 90s. (The Lewinsky stuff did not bother me.)

    Sometimes you have to bite the bullet. If Hillary doesn’t make it then I’m already looking towards 2012. I made it through 8 years of Bush/Cheney and dammit, I can make it 4 years with McCain.

    I don’t think Barack Obama is qualified, nor has the experience to POTUS. Something tells me this could lead to some very serious fuck-ups, especially in foreign policy because he’s not had any personal exposure to diplomatic circles, much less visited any of our ally countries. This is not good, not now. I don’t want an on-the-job trainee. And that’s what Barack would be. At least McCain has some experience having been in the Senate longer. What… we’re going to hand the reigns to someone whose only been a Senator for 3 years? One of which he’s been running for President. It’s beyond the 3am call. I wouldn’t be able to get any sleep at night.

  • DisenfranchisedVoter

    I agree. I think in a state like MA that usually goes blue but recent polls have shown that Obama is TIED with McCain in a match-up, I would recommend voting for McCain instead of writing in Hillary. If you are from a blue state like NY, writing in Hillary won’t change the outcome. BUT if something horrible surfaces about Obama (more Wright videos, Rezco, etc) during the general which hurts him tremendously even in blue states like NY, MA, CA – I say vote for McCain!
    I am from Michigan a swing state which will likely go to McCain in the general if Obama is the nominee. But if polls end up showing that Obama and McCain are tied or that Obama is leading in the polls in MI during the general, there is a good chance that I’ll just vote for McCain. The Democratic Party has shown us that they put their needs before ours so why should I put their needs before my desire to make a statement in the general. I think Hillary supporters should make a statement either by writing in Hillary or voting for McCain. The only way we can protest is with our votes and our pocketbooks. DON’T donate to the DNC and if Obama wins the nomination, don’t donate a penny to his campaign.

  • Marco

    Hey, I trust Hillary to be the President. I also trust her judgement when she says don’t vote for McCain. Sorry, as a Democrat, that’s a no-brainer.

    I don’t doubt McCain loves his country. George Bush loves his country, too. He loves it in a warped, sick way, but he loves it.

  • bayathena

    Marco:

    Hillary and McCain are good friends. When the big dog says they would have a “civilized” campaign, he is sending a signal about how the Clintons feel about McCain. They do not see him as warped or sick.

    She has not said don’t vote for McCain, she has said vote Democratic. She also has said she intends to be the nominee.

    But if she isn’t, don’t go into shock Marco when McCain invites her into his administration.

  • grtphoto

    Why does he deserve it? Who deserves it at all, they need to earn it. POW status doesn’t equal foreign policy experience like they are trying to sell us, I find this equation insulting. I will never vote out of sympathy.

  • bayathena

    And Marco:

    Bush is not warped, just stupid. He’s a consummate fuckup. He didn’t succeed at any other job he attempted in his life and he screwed up his current job too.

    Under McCain or Hillary there would have been no Katrina screw up.

  • mimi

    Thank you for this editorial.

    This is exactly how I remember it happening. Unfortunately, most people only read the headlines or listen to the sound bites.

    Obama has been very Machiavellian in playing the race card. That much I will give him credit for.

    However, what he has done will cost the black community in ways they haven’t even begun to dream of. This is why I don’t support him. No black leader would sacrifice his heritage this way knowing it would only hurt the community in the long run.

    Obama is totally out for himself!

  • jwrjr

    I am registered ‘unaffiliated’, not Democrat. If Dean/Obama want to take my vote for granted, they are in for a rude surprise. The only way I will vote for Obama is if the FL and MI delegates are seated and allowed to vote the way the primary voters chose. Maybe not even then, considering the crap they pulled in Texas (and, I believe, just about everywhere there was a caucus).

  • Marco

    She will never be in a McCain administration and he would never invite her. She made it clear. Voting for the GOP this fall is not an option.

    I agree with her. Mr. 100 years in Iraq isn’t getting my vote under any circumstances.

    Ps. Bush is worse than warped.

  • Ann

    When reporting on the numbers who wanted one candidate or the other to cease their campaign the news reported:
    22% want Obama to withdraw, and 22% want Hillary to drop out.” Even that distinction — withdraw and drop out, pisses me off.

    If the DNC does not recognize FL and MI I think we should all appeal to Hillary to run as an independent. I know she is a Democrat through and through — but Dems won’t win for generations if they disenfranchise FL and MI and Obama’s “new voters” are a mirage — they’re not really as numerous as it appears. I think Hillary could actually win if she ran on her own. If the DNC doesn’t seat FL and MI, what other option is there? They’ll have destroyed the party to appease the effete Kerry, Obama elite wing of the party and they don’t know how to win elections. They don’t realize you have to actually work for votes and appeal to voters. BO and his supporters have been bludgeoning Hillary supporters non-stop — there’s no chance in hell many of us will ever now support him.

  • TeakWoodKite

    Psychodrew, my kid is a bright young person and is a “gay voter”. But before any god that will bear witness he is a human being first.

    The bottom line is the folks that Obama has spent the last 20 years praying with, have said the same crap that one would expect from the mouths of the Christian right.On the topic of gay rights there is NO difference between them. From what I have been exposed to and read I implore not to take my word for it. there are numerous links and sources for this information including this sites archives of the last 4 months? Take heed.

    When folks like Rachel Madow say they are for Obama, for the life of me I don’t know why. The gay community will NOT be represented in any meaningful way, because to do so Obama will have to go against 20 years of indoctrination I suspect quite the opposite.

  • bayathena

    Ann:

    Hillary is committed to the Democratic Party. I don’t think she would consider running as an independent. In addition, many of you might not be aware of the new wrinkle in the race, she may be interested in running for Governor of New York.

    Since the Spitzer debacle and the equally horrifying Paterson revelations, the New York political scene has been turned upside down. People here are talking about getting her to run for Governor if she doesn’t nail the Presidential nomination.

    Why? Because there is talk that Guiliani intends to run. It would be a reprise of her first Senate run.

    As Governor of New York, she would then run for President again. Only then no one could accuse her of not running anything.

  • TeakWoodKite

    Ditto!

  • Psychodrew

    We don’t need an organization, do we? I’ve been thinking a lot lately about 1992, the year Bill Clinton was elected. It was the first election in which I was really engaged. That election year was called, “The Year of the Woman.” A number of women began raising money and running for office because they were angry about the Clarence Thomas-Anita Hill Hearings. That year, four Democratic women were elected to the Senate–Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Carol Moseley Braun, and Patty Murray.

    Why can’t we just do that again?

  • Psychodrew

    There is a great deal of homophobia in the African-American community, but not nearly as much as in the Republican Party. My fear is that in 50 years, a young homosexual is going to ask me how I voted in this election. “Where were you when the Supreme Court was on the line?”

    For me, that’s what it comes down to. It’s hard because I genuinely do respect John McCain, but he scares me more than Obama disgusts me.

  • Psychodrew

    He was at a fund-raiser and refused to have his picture taken with him, right?

  • alexei

    I’ll get some and put Hopeless on it as well (my husband idea).

  • bayathena

    Marco:

    McCain meant a long American presence not troops. He pointed out that we are still in Japan and Germany 63 years after WWII ended. We are still in Korea.

    Your loyalty to Hillary is noteworthy. But get your facts straight. McCain is already on record as saying that she would make a good President. So why wouldn’t he invite her into his administration?

    Old hands like me, with many years in politics, know how to read between the lines. Learn to do so. Not everything is spelled out.

  • TeakWoodKite

    well said Tiffany but

    they will never treat us like crap again

    Yes the Democratic power stucture will and in the same fashion that it is occuring now.

    Political expediency wins out over principles in these “days of Morder” and will for sometime to come.

  • Psychodrew

    I completely agree with both of you.

    But right now, I, personally, am experiencing the worst, most devastating emotional turmoil of my life because of these marriage laws. It’s a great part of the reason that I am so passionate about Hillary, because I know that she will be a voice for people like me.

    For now, I am staying positive. I have a great deal of faith in Hillary Clinton. I’m not counting her out because she has proven that she is tough and she doesn’t give up. After 16 years of being drug through the mud by the GOP and repeatedly thrown under the bus by the Democrats Hillary has stopped fighting for people like me, so I’m not going to give up on her.

  • Andy
  • TeakWoodKite

    Thanks.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    having observed the clinton rules in operation in the 90s, i couldn’t agree more. and i am extremely sick of it.

    i am beyond sick of obama. and i am beyond sick of the dem “leadership.”

    have voted for every dem since mcgovern. will NOT vote for obama, whether he’s on the top or the bottom of the ticket. WILL vote for mccain. will also contribute the 2300 max to him. would have trouble doing this for lots of repubs, although my ire towards obama is great enough that i might. but mccain is better than most repubs, so it won’t bother me in the least.

    interestingly, the clinton rules have so far been applied to mccain as well, by the msm (such as taking the 100 years comment completely out of context). we’ll see if that continues once the msm gets their way and gets obama the dem nomination.

    anyway, don’t care about either the msm or the dem “leadership” (in quotes, because they actually are not leaders, just destroyers). am completely ignoring all of them. but do strongly hope that they all lose their jobs.

    there was a time when i might have softened my view, at least to the point of just not voting, but that time has passed. obama and his supporters have disgusted and insulted us too many times. now i can only pray that his “big con” does not ultimately succeed.

  • jkay

    You know this is the first time I have seen the wording ‘pitch fork’ mentioned. I don’t advocate violence, because that never gets anybody anywhere. I have been very angry about people, including myself, just sitting at computers and spewing things. When are we going to start acting like the CITIZENS, that we are, instead of the R, and D, that they tell us we are.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    saw the comment about hillary possibly running for governor of new york if she doesn’t get the dem nomination. doesn’t bother me in the least if she leaves the old boys club of the senate – they don’t deserve to have quality senators amongst them.

    what does bother me is that the suggestion was made then said to be so that she could get some executive experience. insulting! nobody’s suggesting that obama needs to get executive experience.

    besides, she’s already been vice president – just ask al gore….

  • grtphoto

    It’s a reference to how serious I believe this to be, I do not adovocate violence, I’m merely speaking to the sense of outrage people are feeling. Not everything is literal.

  • bayathena

    Loyal Dem:

    No one is suggesting that Obama get experience because He Is The One!

    I simply was commenting on what other’s have said. Hillary has lots of experience running things. The sexist mantra is that she would be nothing if she were not Bill’s wife. Said by people who know nothing of her life and what she is done.

    If anything, their early friends thought she would be the one who would run for President, not Bill.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    you have a very good point about down the ticket. i have also decided to do this. i usually vote a straight dem ticket, and have voted for the dem presidential nominee since 1972. this year, if obama is nominated, no matter what kissing up they try to do later or what phony consideration they give to fl and mi, i will vote a straight repub ticket. i’m a texan and the dems know obama won’t carry texas, so they don’t care about people like me. but if we vote a straight repub ticket, they’ll get the message that backing him is hurting the down ballot dems – and that’s a message i want them to get.

    i will never again vote a straight dem ticket. after this year’s repub vote, i’ll consider all options with an open mind. this year, however, i no longer have an open mind. they MUST learn to not shit on us!

    and the dnc will never again get a dime from me.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    I LOVE IT!

    haven’t carried a picket sign since the 60s, early 70s, so my better public demonstration of protest days are behind me, but i’d find a way to get my creaky self out there!!!

  • loyal dem leaving party

    so right re down ballot – that’s why i’m making sure all the down ballot folks DON’T get my vote. unless the repub opponent is disgusting, he or she will get my vote, else i’ll just abstain.

    also so right re wright. they think they’ve put it behind them because recent polls show obama back up, etc. but that’s because he’s not the nominee yet. after august, all bet’s are off.

    also so right re the dem party becoming toxic for years to come – serves dean, pelosi, et al right. i hope to be around long enough to see a new party finally become viable.

  • Psychodrew

    After 16 years of being drug through the mud by the GOP and repeatedly thrown under the bus by the Democrats Hillary has stopped fighting for people like me, so I’m not going to give up on her.

    Oops! That should read hasn’t stopped.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    agree that just not voting is a realistic option if you don’t want to vote mccain and the state is sure to go one way or the other. but polls have proven to be VERY unreliable. and i think that is especially true this year. some polls (think zogby) have been deliberately off, imho, and others certainly give that impression. i think there’s a real attempt to create a self-fulfilling prophecy effect by reporting poll results that may or may not be true. so if there’s any doubt at all, a vote for mccain could be the only way to prevent an obama win.

  • Tom K.

    Today I took one of those fund-raising letters and wrote “Shame on the DNC! Shame on Dean and Brazile! No vote for Obama!” and sent it back in the postage-paid envelope.

  • Ann

    Bayathena — I know that Hillary is a loyal Democrat and she would never run as an independent unless the party was hopelessly messed-up. But, refusing to recognize the voters in FL and MI is an untenable position for the Democratic party to take and still win elections. So, if the DNC’s determination to deny Hillary the nomination is so strong that they are willing to essentially ruin a Democrats chance of winning the White House for this election and future ones — it’s kind of a “no other option” decision.

    If Obama were to win the nomination with FL and MI included Hillary would have no problem going back to her Senate seat and campaigning hard for BO. But, it would be bad for the party and it would ruin BO’s chance to be elected if he’s given the nomination without including FL and MI. 35% of democrats won’t support him, nor will MI and FL. I don’t know if he’s just clueless about electoral politics, but he’d have to win a lot of Idaho’s to make up for those electoral losses. Not to mention I don’t think he’ll carry NY or MA or OH or NM or NJ or PA…it would be a GE landslide for McCain.

    To me it’s silly these discussions where people want to “give” Hillary the speakers job, or the governor’s job…as if she’d run against Patterson.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    bayathena, sorry, i clearly wrote badly, which i tend to do when i’m angry, which is most of the time since this obama mess started. anyway, i understand that you were commenting on others’ views. sorry if i put it badly.

    re the others, they have said that hillary should run for governor to get executive experience. and as you rightly say they have also said she’d be nowhere if she hadn’t married bill. i’ve posted numerous replies with my opinion – i think she’d already be president if she weren’t married to bill, and your comment indicates that you agree. i admire him greatly, but his presidency opened too many doors to criticism that’s hurting her.

  • jwrjr

    Obama is The One most likely to do for the Democratic Party what cheney/bush have done for the Republican Party.

  • bayathena

    Loyal Dem:

    I have mixed feelings about him. He’s her ball and chain…baggage she can’t leave behind.

    His Presidency was better than Carter’s but not brilliant. I really believe that Hillary would be a better President than Bill. So does Chelsea.

    If you read Bernstein’s bio of her, one of the words he uses, quoting her friends again, about her feelings for Bill is “besotted.” That she was crazy about him is clear, and she must be still crazy about him.

    She probably would have gotten better press if she divorced him. So much for her having no emotions.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    bayathena, know what you mean about “besotted.” as a woman of similar background and age, i can relate completely – he has the sort of charm that i’d have fallen for, i’m sure. also agree that not divorcing him has hurt her – amazes me that women write hateful things blaming her for his infidelity and her not leaving. would they blame their daughters if their husbands were unfaithful yet they decided to try to work it out out?

    i do think he was a very good president, at least better than the others in the past 4 decades. i also agree with chelsea that she’d be better. he impresses me as very smart and very charming. she impresses me as incredibly smart, incredibly strong, and – unfortunately – not as charming. sadly, that costs her votes. re bernstein – can’t stand him, so would never give him the profit of buying his book, but should check it out online or in a library one of these days.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    good one!

  • bayathena

    A measure of how good Hillary is at converting Republicans to her side (as we in NY have seen repeatedly) is the editorial Scaife, the Clintons long time nemesis, wrote in his paper. It’s a must read as is the NYT commentary on it.

    http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/s_559659.html

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/31/us/politics/31clinton.html?ref=politics

  • bayathena

    Loyal dem:

    Bill was a good President, just not brilliant at a time when we needed brilliance. He was too cautious about some things.

    Hillary, on the other hand, will make a magnificent President. All the people who sell her short are going to be very, very surprised. This is a woman who will be spoken of in the same terms as Thatcher and Meir.

  • http://www.despair.com/changewinds.html Smilin’ Jim

    “how is that going to change short of a pitch fork revolt?”
    Carter was right. Americans define themselves in terms of their possessions.
    He paid the price for being right.

    We were deluded in the 60′s and 70′s that revolution could ever occur in the United States. It led to very bizarre behavior, Black Power, the Panthers, the Weather Underground, the SLA and the Manson family, maybe worse.

    There will still be a reckoning. But beware gods with a sense of humor, Patty Hearst is making John Waters films.

  • loyal dem leaving party

    bayathena, absolutely agree! i think she is incredible. have been admiring her for years – she is the woman i wish i could be. i hope that this country gets over its misogyny in time for her to have the chance to convince the doubters.

  • bayathena

    Ann:

    A belated response: Paterson’s days may be numbered as Governor. Any more shoes dropping and he will have to resign which makes the next Governor of NY a Republican. At which point, Hillary could run.

    As for the DNC, I agree with those who say hold on to your money. The Chairman is usually chosen for his fund raising skills. No money = no job. If angry Dems don’t contribute, the leadership will see the light.

  • http://www.thegsblog.com/ zaine_ridling

    Thank you! I often apply this “shoe on the other foot” test in many things ‘obama’ and come up perplexed. Imagine if Jeremiah Wright were Hillary’s pastor for 20 years! All the (strangely familiar RNC) mud these limpy Dems have thrown at Hillary seems to be aimed at Bill.

    I won’t forget, and I will die with a smile if she snatches the nomination from obama over the next ten states!

  • chris

    I will laugh my ass off if she wins the nomination, and as I shared with my locals, I’ll vote for her as well. Should she lose, I’ll vote for Nader gladly. He just stood up for her right to stay in the race. Bravo…she should thank him.

  • Wendy!

    Yep.

    Hillary’s plea the other day to unite behind the nominee was important…but I’m still not sure I can do it if millions of voters remain disenfranchised and the Democratic leadership allowed it to happen. It will not be a party I want to support. Hillary’s plea, while important to me, may not be enough.

  • Wendy!

    Count me in.

  • chris

    same here Wendy. I’ll unite behind her because she had to face all this crap to get the nomination. But other than that…i’m done with the Democratic Party and will seek to shatter it.

  • Wendy!

    Yes, I should clarify…I will support Hillary in the general election because FL and MI did vote for her and because she’s had to run against Obama, the male chauvinists of the Democratic Party and the media…she deserves our vote in November. Obama, on the other hand, will be an illegitimate nominee w/o FL and MI and the Democratic Party should not count on my support.

  • serena

    This die hard fourth generation Democrat who has supported the party and made contributions for forty two years will vote Repub for the first time in my life if the nomination is handed to Obama with out the FL. and MI. votes being counted. I come from a very large mid western family and they will do the same. This movement is huge and growing every minute. The elite Dems who are shoving this unworthy man down our throats do not have a clue what they have wrought.

  • chris

    Again, I have to question the logic…why vote Republican? If you don’t want to vote for Democrats after this, I’m clear about why, but why go to Republican? That makes no sense to me.
    I honor your right, just don’t understand the logic.

  • chris

    I have two options, Hillary Clinton (out of solidarity for the hard fought campaign and because I know her flaws and foibles to be able to criticize her unlike Messiah Obama) and my main choice Ralph Nader.

  • Ramasan

    DNC 202-863-8000. Call them and tell them how you feel as one last courtesy. They have the power to stop this train wreck and I have a feeling they’ll
    recognize sincerity in our voices. If they continue to ignore us, we can find comfort in having done all we could to get their attention.

    Lehey’s office: 202-224-4242. Thank him for his condescending suggestion that Hillary step aside for an underprepared half-term, half-assed male Senator.

  • Rob Gard

    Lynn Sweet in the Chicago Sun Times is all over this trial. Sometimes the Tribune is just too polite and they don’t want to go for the jugular, since they have endorsed Obama. Both Chicago papers do a much better job than the national press in covering this trial, and Rezko watch is a great site, as well. From my point of view, U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald is just getting warmed up. Star witness Levine was a small fish, used to go after bigger fish like Rezko. If Fitzgerald is successful in nailing Rezko, he will be squeezed to roll over on Obama and Illinois Governor, Rod Blagojevich.

  • DisenfranchisedVoter

    Zogby is in the tank for Obama. Never take their polls seriously. They’ve been off the entire election. Stick with SurveyUSA. And I agree, a vote for McCain in most states might be the only way to ensure an Obama defeat. Even states like MA and CA might hold a lot of surprises for Obama if a lot of us Clintonites vote for McCain. I can see MA actually turning red this year and CA might even be close depending on who Hispanics and Asian Americans go for if Clinton is no longer in the race.

  • chris

    yeah, I have to agree about Zogby.

    I love when Pollsters call my house, which seems to happen frequently. I keep them in stitches…as they try to ask me sort of narrow questions preconcluded.

    “Are you content in your life these days”
    a. Very much so
    b. Somewhat so
    c. Ambivalent
    d. Somewhat dissatisfied
    e. Very dissatisfied

    typical answer: “well, I love my family, and our local school is well, but the traffic around here is worse than the last place I was in, and I have a toothache right now. So, how about, on the outside of my personal shell of 100 yards, i’m pretty damn content, but if I extend my sense of self beyond my physical and egodriven self, I’m somewhat dissatisfied with the general life around me because so many are suffering and confused.”

    pollster: usually laughing “so…a? b?…”

    me: “well can I give you an “ad” combination”?

    pollster: “no…not really”

    me: “then I’ll have to skip that answer for now, can we come back? it might change in a minute.”

    pollster: “do you trust politicians generally speaking?”

    ….(audience participation insert here)……

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