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]]> By: john bly http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-22257 john bly Sun, 02 Sep 2007 13:47:34 +0000 http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-22257 "<em>....asking almost 3 Americans per day to die in Iraq? Not worth another drop of our blood...."</em> Thanks for the great analysis. I totally agree with the concluding, last paragraph of your piece (as with the rest of the piece). However, our soldiers are going there voluntarily, and fully knowing that this is an illegal war of occupation. They are making this continued disaster, including wasting $3 billion a week, possible. As such I can no longer support the troops. “….asking almost 3 Americans per day to die in Iraq? Not worth another drop of our blood….”

Thanks for the great analysis. I totally agree with the concluding, last paragraph of your piece (as with the rest of the piece). However, our soldiers are going there voluntarily, and fully knowing that this is an illegal war of occupation. They are making this continued disaster, including wasting $3 billion a week, possible. As such I can no longer support the troops.

]]> By: Shirin http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-22000 Shirin Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:40:34 +0000 http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-22000 Here is something on refugeesfrom the great British journalist (and I use that word in the TRUE sense), Robert Fisk, one of the few western journalists in the Middle East who lives there, speaks, reads, and writes Arabic, and actually gives a damn about the people and places he writes about. "<i>For their care [of Iraqi refugees], of course, <b>the Syrians have received not a scintilla of gratitude from the Americans</b> who were responsible for creating the hell-disaster of Iraq in the first place. It's worth comparing the vital statistics (though not on CNN or Fox News): Syria has accepted almost one and a half million Iraqi refugees – caring for them, providing them with welfare and free hospital services – while Washington, when it isn't cursing Iraq's prime minister, has accepted a measly 800 Iraqis. "And Lebanon? No one realises that this tiny Arab country has accepted 50,000 Iraqis since the great refugee exodus began.</i>" http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2917317.ece Here is something on refugeesfrom the great British journalist (and I use that word in the TRUE sense), Robert Fisk, one of the few western journalists in the Middle East who lives there, speaks, reads, and writes Arabic, and actually gives a damn about the people and places he writes about.

“For their care [of Iraqi refugees], of course, the Syrians have received not a scintilla of gratitude from the Americans who were responsible for creating the hell-disaster of Iraq in the first place. It’s worth comparing the vital statistics (though not on CNN or Fox News): Syria has accepted almost one and a half million Iraqi refugees – caring for them, providing them with welfare and free hospital services – while Washington, when it isn’t cursing Iraq’s prime minister, has accepted a measly 800 Iraqis.

“And Lebanon? No one realises that this tiny Arab country has accepted 50,000 Iraqis since the great refugee exodus began.”

http://news.independent.co.uk/fisk/article2917317.ece

]]> By: Larry Johnson http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21994 Larry Johnson Sat, 01 Sep 2007 15:43:21 +0000 http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21994 As is typcial of Tom aka Winning Side aka Moe-Ron, he focuses on the irrelevant. The issue is not the number of casualties. The issue is casualties without measurable progress. Yes, far more died in World War II and we vanquished the Germans and the Japanese and installed functioning democracies in both. Not the case in Iraq. We've spent far more time fighting in Iraq, deploying our soldiers on combat tours for more time than US soldiers in the Second World War, the Korean War, and the Vietnam war ever had to deploy. I have never claimed to be a combat vet. But I have been mentored by three combat veterans--Pat Lang (SOG Vietnam), Dick Gannon (Vietnam and Commander of the 5th Marines) and Paul Evancoe (NAVY SEAL, Vietnam). My views on combat and the expenditure of human lives in feckless causes is based on the experience of these men. Winning Side is just another yellow elephant Republican who talks a tough game but doesn't have the stones to play. As is typcial of Tom aka Winning Side aka Moe-Ron, he focuses on the irrelevant. The issue is not the number of casualties. The issue is casualties without measurable progress. Yes, far more died in World War II and we vanquished the Germans and the Japanese and installed functioning democracies in both. Not the case in Iraq. We’ve spent far more time fighting in Iraq, deploying our soldiers on combat tours for more time than US soldiers in the Second World War, the Korean War, and the Vietnam war ever had to deploy. I have never claimed to be a combat vet. But I have been mentored by three combat veterans–Pat Lang (SOG Vietnam), Dick Gannon (Vietnam and Commander of the 5th Marines) and Paul Evancoe (NAVY SEAL, Vietnam). My views on combat and the expenditure of human lives in feckless causes is based on the experience of these men.
Winning Side is just another yellow elephant Republican who talks a tough game but doesn’t have the stones to play.

]]> By: SusanUnPC http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21987 SusanUnPC Sat, 01 Sep 2007 14:14:49 +0000 http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21987 And if you are copying another person's writing -- as it seems to me you are -- please put it in blockquotes and provide the source link. And if you are copying another person’s writing — as it seems to me you are — please put it in blockquotes and provide the source link.

]]> By: SusanUnPC http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21986 SusanUnPC Sat, 01 Sep 2007 14:10:56 +0000 http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21986 Great response, Shirin. It sickens me. <a href="http://www.charlierose.com" rel="nofollow">Charlie Rose</a> did a great show about the crisis in March, and everything said on that show is still timely. The <em>New Yorker</em>'s George Packer was on because of his piece on the plight of the Iraqis who've worked for the Americans, contractors, etc., and how the Americans have screwed them over. Packer said that no other story he's ever done made him MORE ASHAMED to be an American. <blockquote><a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/03/26/070326fa_fact_packer" rel="nofollow">A Reporter at Large: Betrayed: The Iraqis who trusted America the most</a> Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker by George Packer March 26, 2007</blockquote> P.S. Angelina Jolie was in Iraq very recently to highlight the plight of Iraqi refugees, and she went to the refugee camps. CNN did about 15 seconds on it. If only she'd taken Jennifer Anniston with her and had staged a big cat fight, then the story would have gotten more time (if not emphasis on the Iraqi refugees she is trying to help get the word out about). Great response, Shirin. It sickens me. Charlie Rose did a great show about the crisis in March, and everything said on that show is still timely. The New Yorker’s George Packer was on because of his piece on the plight of the Iraqis who’ve worked for the Americans, contractors, etc., and how the Americans have screwed them over.

Packer said that no other story he’s ever done made him MORE ASHAMED to be an American.

A Reporter at Large: Betrayed: The Iraqis who trusted America the most
Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker
by George Packer March 26, 2007

P.S. Angelina Jolie was in Iraq very recently to highlight the plight of Iraqi refugees, and she went to the refugee camps. CNN did about 15 seconds on it. If only she’d taken Jennifer Anniston with her and had staged a big cat fight, then the story would have gotten more time (if not emphasis on the Iraqi refugees she is trying to help get the word out about).

]]> By: Shirin http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21917 Shirin Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:13:53 +0000 http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21917 Jordan was never really happy about taking refugees, and did not welcome them, except for the more affluent ones. That country also has very little capacity for dealing with desperate, impoverished Iraqis. Syria is also a more friendly place than Jordan for a wider variety of Iraqis, especially different flavours of Christians, Shi`as, Sabaeans, etc. A LOT of Iraqi Christians have gone to Syria. Syria has, as I said, been quite generous until now, and provided a lot of services for Iraqi refugees that are available to Syrian citizens, but they are not a rich country and can only do so much for so many. Yes, I doubt the Palestinian Iraqis would have Sudan as their first choice, but really the trouble there is not everywhere in the country, but only in one area. I have never been there, but based on knowing several Sudanis, I think the life is OK, and can be very pleasant in major cities like Khartoum. The Sudanis I have known - mostly women - were highly educated, very cultured and quite sophisticated professional people. In any case, almost anywhere would be an improvement over the conditions they have been forced to live in the refugee camps. They had quite a privileged existence in Saddam's time - it was part of his self-aggrandizement in which he used Palestinians quite shamelessly. Of course, despite Iraqis' naturally very strong general sympathy and support for the Palestinians, and for their struggle, it caused a lot of resentment, especially during the years of the sanctions, to see those non-Iraqis being provided better and easier lives by the Iraqi government than most Iraqis had. There were also stories - maybe true, maybe not - that some of the Palestinians were earning their keep by acting as spies for the regime. That, of course, added fuel to the fire after the regime ended. Jordan was never really happy about taking refugees, and did not welcome them, except for the more affluent ones. That country also has very little capacity for dealing with desperate, impoverished Iraqis. Syria is also a more friendly place than Jordan for a wider variety of Iraqis, especially different flavours of Christians, Shi`as, Sabaeans, etc. A LOT of Iraqi Christians have gone to Syria. Syria has, as I said, been quite generous until now, and provided a lot of services for Iraqi refugees that are available to Syrian citizens, but they are not a rich country and can only do so much for so many.

Yes, I doubt the Palestinian Iraqis would have Sudan as their first choice, but really the trouble there is not everywhere in the country, but only in one area. I have never been there, but based on knowing several Sudanis, I think the life is OK, and can be very pleasant in major cities like Khartoum. The Sudanis I have known - mostly women - were highly educated, very cultured and quite sophisticated professional people.

In any case, almost anywhere would be an improvement over the conditions they have been forced to live in the refugee camps. They had quite a privileged existence in Saddam’s time - it was part of his self-aggrandizement in which he used Palestinians quite shamelessly. Of course, despite Iraqis’ naturally very strong general sympathy and support for the Palestinians, and for their struggle, it caused a lot of resentment, especially during the years of the sanctions, to see those non-Iraqis being provided better and easier lives by the Iraqi government than most Iraqis had. There were also stories - maybe true, maybe not - that some of the Palestinians were earning their keep by acting as spies for the regime. That, of course, added fuel to the fire after the regime ended.

]]> By: Leslie http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21913 Leslie Sat, 01 Sep 2007 06:31:10 +0000 http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21913 Gee Zogby, or is it Winning Side? Folks, Zogby and Winning Side are one and the same person. Why are you hiding behind John Zogby's name? You're no <a href="http://www.zogby.com/about/detail.cfm?ID=1" rel="nofollow">John Zogby</a>. You're a phony! Gee Zogby, or is it Winning Side?
Folks, Zogby and Winning Side are one and the same person.

Why are you hiding behind John Zogby’s name? You’re no John Zogby. You’re a phony!

]]> By: Shirin http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21912 Shirin Sat, 01 Sep 2007 06:28:18 +0000 http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/08/31/the-price-of-progress/#comment-21912 "<i>the worst thing that could happen to America would be “winning” this war.</i>" I would - in fact, have from the beginning - gone a step farther than this and say it would be the worst thing that could happen to the world, and to humankind. "<i>My greatgrandchildren will be paying for this obscenity.</i>" Yes, they will, but I am quite sure they will not be paying reparations to the victims of the crime. The Iraqis will never see a cent of reparation money. Your great grandchildren will be paying for the bombs, and other instruments of death and destruction that were purchased on borrowed money. “the worst thing that could happen to America would be “winning” this war.”

I would - in fact, have from the beginning - gone a step farther than this and say it would be the worst thing that could happen to the world, and to humankind.

“My greatgrandchildren will be paying for this obscenity.”

Yes, they will, but I am quite sure they will not be paying reparations to the victims of the crime. The Iraqis will never see a cent of reparation money. Your great grandchildren will be paying for the bombs, and other instruments of death and destruction that were purchased on borrowed money.

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