Oh yes, and don’t overlook the blatant double standard. Any time the Americans kill civilians it is “regrettable but unavoidable collateral damage”, because after all, they were not targetting the civilians, no matter how many of them they manage to kill, and how few so-called “bad guys”, and no matter how inevitable it was that they would be killing more civilians than so-called “bad guys”. However, any time the resistance harms a civilian in an attack on the occupation, the assumption is that they were targetting the civilians, and they are labeled terrorists. So, either the Americans are terrorists because they kill tens or hundreds or even thousands of civilians for every so-called ‘bad guy”, or else the civilians killed by resistance fighters who are attacking elements of the occupation are also “regrettable collateral damage”. You can’t have it both ways if you are going to be honest about it.

Oh, yes, and are you aware that resistance groups and fighters have spoken out very strongly, and taken actions against those who are attacking civilians? Perhaps not, since it is unlikely that information has made it into the U.S. media.

And are you aware that so-called “Sunni insurgents” have been fighting against the Al Qa`eda knock-off groups since way before genius Petraeus got the idea of “recruiting” them to fight on “his side”? Hint: They are not allies of the Americans, and they are not fighting “on the side of” the Americans. They are using the Americans to help them fight against people they have seen as a threat and an enemy from the beginning. And as an added bonus, while the Americans are stupidly seeing them as allies, they don’t have to divide their resources between fighting two different enemies.

Terrorism is not the same thing as resistance. Attacking a foreign occupation in your country is not terrorism.

IF the “terrorists” only confined their attacks to the US soldiers as occupiers you would be correct. However, they have been engaged (according to several sources) in civilian attacks for political and sectarian purposes, even ethnic cleansing, and how is that not terrorism?

And, as you noted, the WH actually did call them terrorists, which makes it all the more curious as to why we would be arming them. We are arming the Shia as well as the Sunnis. So, what better way to drive home the point that the WH really does not care about what happens to the troops than by showing just who the WH considers as our friends. It’s only a matter of time before these arms the WH is handing out now is used on our troops.

HH… I think your grandfather was a wise man… JFK was a hero to many, although as we know, he did have his faults and short comings… But he, more than anyone I can remember, was able to inspire those around him to greatness. I mean by that: he made everyone believe and then act to make things better.

What say you about the candidates and their campaign so far. I have ruled out any repubs, and have narrowed the dems down to 4-5, and am leaning more and more toward one, but looks like my primary vote won’t count in Dem primary. Lots of voting shenanigans going on too in other states…

IMPEACH !!!! It’s the RIGHT thing to do!!!

Can we please try to avoid falling into using the Bush regime’s own propaganda? Attacks on occupation forces are by definition not terrorism. The people who attack the occupation forces are by definition not terrorists.

So, if there’s 20+ groups (and probably more now, perhaps Larry has an updated number), who are the allies? Why are we in the middle if we don’t know who to fight and who to protect? It can’t change weekly if we think we will solve this. Either that or we disarm EVERYBODY, and the arms manufacturers won’t allow that to happen.

The goalposts have been moving since before 3/03.

Go back a couple of years to the National Strategy for Victory in Iraq, rolled out to much fanfare in 2005, and promptly ignored after that by the WH. It was mostly a benchmark document without a plan to get there [although it was sold as a "plan" where the D's didn't have a "plan for Iraq"]. We have a duly elected government that is was recognized by the WH as the legitimate and sovereign represntative of Iraq.

Now W is snubbing them because he doesn’t like them, and is permitting ominous comments from government reps and Allawi dabbling in regime change [where IS that money coming from, it's illegal to hide the source in the US], one wonders why W would go with the guy that got 1% in the last election with purple fingers. I cannot see how any puppet, even a well funded one, can unify Iraq, and Allawi is probably more hated that W in Iraq, maybe even more than Chalabi.

One last note: IF SecDef Gates follows through on his pledge about troop rotations, they will be drawing down by about 30,000 come April, as the 15 month deployments expire with no replacements. Big IF in my view, but I am pretty sure the WH will try to blame the D’s for any extensions. The only reason the D’s couldn’t be blamed before was because someone leaked the memo a couple of days early. An orderly withdrawal would be better, but if the Bush bio is accurate, they aren’t going to come home.

And when I say “you” I am responding to your use of “we”, so if you want me to use “they”, then you must use the third person also.

I believe that is what is called circular reasoning.

As for the paradise for terrorists’ part, that is purely your creation. If anything Saddam had created a bit of a hell for terrorists, or at least a very unfriendly place for them, and had done an excellent job of keeping them out. Oh, sure, a couple of old, worn out Palestinian former terrorists had retired there, and in fact one of them had actually become part of the “peace process”, and spent a couple of years in the Occupied Palestinian Territories as part of the Palestinian “team”, with Israel’s blessing. That one was the only big “terrorist supported by Saddam” that the Bushies ever managed to grab. Funny how they never mentioned that he had been equally supported by the Israeli government!

Here’s a rundown of who they are, such as Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Robert Kagan, Bill Kristol, John Bolton, Richard Armitage, Richard Perle, Elliott Abrams…aka “empire builders.” The Neocons are well represented in the Bush administration and they’ve played and continue to play a large role in Bush’s policies, such as the Iraq War, preemption, torture, etc.
Here’s a primer on their beliefs.

And if you really want to know more about them, visit their organization the Project for the New American Century or PNAC. Read a few of their letters and statements regarding the Middle East.

No, you did not walk into a religious war, and it really irks me to hear people say that. Iraq has no history of serious sectarian or ethnic conflict, not during its eighty-some years as a modern-day nation-state, and not in its many centuries of history before that. There was no religious war going on when you “walked in”, not even an incipient one. On the contrary, you created the conflict that is going on now, which is in fact not a religious war anyway, but a power struggle among groups that want to take over control of the country.

Iraq’s social history is one of coexistence, cooperation, and intermixing - so much so that it is difficult to find a family that is purely one thing or another. Intermarriage between Sunnis and Shi`as is so common that no one ever even mentioned it, and intermarriage between Arab and Kurds, or Arabs and Turkmens is not so unusual either, and was often undertaken to solidify relationships between tribes or families. Intermarriage between Muslims and Christians is also not terribly remarkable in urban areas, there have been marriages between Muslims and Jews, and probably Christians and Jews, though I do not personally know of any families like that. I AM personally acquainted with a Yezidi/Assyrian Christian couple.

Iraqis did not used to ask each other about their religious or ethnic background. Sometimes ethnic background was obvious because of someone’s name, sometimes not. It was simply not a factor in deciding whom to associate with. Most Iraqis thought of themselves as Iraqi first, and after that came the rest.

There is a lot more I can say about this issue, but it is late now. I beg you to give up this idea that you innocently walked into an ongoing religious war. You walked into no such thing, and in any case it is not a war over religion, it is a struggle for power.

Objctives? I am still trying to figure out how DoD is measuring success? Besides a media campaign….

As a Middle East expert he makes a good cocktail waitress.

Well our family watched the Couric piece tonight on Falluja..Only the 2nd time we have watched her.
Always thought she was a good cream puff host on the Today show, But i think she is out of her league in real journalism and think CBS made a real mistake hiring her. It would appear that militarily fulluja has been put down..But that’s not the real issue is it? We walked into what i consider a religious war, a civil war and a terrorist’s paradise.
Now the speaking points are..oh now the Sunni’s are on our side..WHAT? Correct me if i’m wrong, but didn’t we go to war against them? It was the shiites (sic) that were the folks going to greet us with flowers? I can’t figure out who the heck we are fighting this month…
Tonight my wife and I watched a commercial about the surge talking about how we can’t give up now because
of the sacrafice we have already paid…And then the lady said ‘ we don’t want another 9-11 ‘
We both turned to each other and said ” what the hell does Iraq have to do with 9-11?” We have opened Pandora’s box and if we push just alittle bit harder everything will be put back into the box..but all the king’s men couldn’t put humpty dumpty back together again….
Here is where we are in the 9th month of 2007..No good or logical choices to solve the Iraq war.
If we just keep pouring gas on the fire in Iraq we won’t have another 9-11..If we pull out the terrorists take over…I worry that my son will get hurt and pay for the idiots in DC that play a poor game of chess with the world politic and have brought shame to my beloved country.
We can’t even turn over the problem to the UN because…Well we kindof blew it with the UN didn’t we? Sorry about the venting….

Watch the Sunni Tribes
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
Published: August 29, 2007

The only possible solution in Iraq is to create a loose federation in which each sect controls its own areas and Baghdad serves as an oil-funded A.T.M.

I’ve been saying divide and conquer was the plan. Good luck to Malaki and that unity thang.