Are Americans Really “Better Than That?”
By Ray McGovern on December 13, 2007 at 11:36 AM in Bush/Cheney, Counterterrorism, Torture
A boyish, inquisitive face with an innocent look peered out from the Washington Post’s lead story on torture. It was well groomed, pink-shirted John Kiriakou, a CIA interrogator who could just as easily pass for the local youth minister. …
The Dec. 11 report by the Post’s Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen, which describes Kiriakou’s experience in interrogating suspected terrorists, raises in an unusually direct way an abiding question: Should the United States of America be using forms of torture dating back to the Spanish Inquisition?
Nowhere is the mood of that infamous period better portrayed than in the Grand Inquisitor chapter of Dostoyevsky’s Brothers Karamazov.
Dostoevsky was unusually gifted at plumbing the human heart. While it has been 127 years since he wrote Brothers Karamazov, he nonetheless captures the trap into which so many Americans have fallen in forfeiting freedom through fear. His portrayal of Inquisition reality brings us to the brink of the moral precipice on which our country teeters today. It is as though he knew what would be in store for us as fear was artificially stoked after the attacks of 9/11.
In the story, Dostoevsky’s Grand Inquisitor (the Cardinal of Seville) ridicules Christ for imposing on humans the heavy burden of freedom of conscience, and explains how it is far better, for all concerned, to dull that conscience and to rule by deceit, violence, and fear:
“Didst thou forget that man prefers peace, and even death, to freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil?…We teach them that it’s not the free judgment of their hearts, but mystery which they must follow blindly, even against their conscience…. In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet [and] become obedient…We shall tell them that we are Thy servants and rule them in Thy name…. we shall be forced to lie…. We shall tell them that every sin will be expiated if it is done with our permission.”
The Grand Inquisitor, in Brothers Karamazov
Abu Zubayda: Poster Child
Kiriakou was one of the first interrogators to interview suspected terrorist Abu Zubayda in a Pakistani military hospital, where Zubayda was recovering from wounds suffered during his capture in early 2002. When he refused to provide information about al-Qaeda’s infrastructure, he was flown to a secret CIA prison where, according to Kiriakou, the interrogation team strapped Abu Zubayda to a board, wrapped his nose and mouth in cellophane, and forced water into his throat. In just 35 seconds, voila! Abu Zubayda starting talking. That is called waterboarding.
The 15 & 16 Century Spanish inquisitors were not squeamish and had little need for circumlocutions or euphemisms like “alternative set of procedures” that are part of President George W. Bush’s lexicon. The Spanish called this procedure, quite plainly, “tortura del agua.” Lacking cellophane, they inserted a cloth into the victim’s mouth, forcing the victim to ingest water spilled from a jar starting the drowning process. Four centuries later, the Gestapo put out several technically improved releases of this operating system of torture, so to speak.
Quick; someone please tell newly confirmed Attorney General Michael Mukasey, who told reporters yesterday he still cannot decide whether waterboarding is torture.
The information from John Kiriakou confirms what has long been a no-brainer but not definitively established before; namely, that President George W. Bush’s “alternative set of procedures” for interrogation by C.I.A. includes waterboarding. Zubayda was given pride of place in George W. Bush’s remarkable speech of Sept. 6, 2006, in which he bragged about the effectiveness of such procedures and appealed successfully for passage of the Military Commissions Act. That law allows a president to define what set of interrogation procedures can be used by the C.I.A. This is Bush on Sept. 6, 2006:
We believe that Zubayda was a senior terrorist leader and a trusted associate of Osama bin Laden…[and that] he had run a terrorist camp in Afghanistan where some of the 9/11 hijackers trained…We knew that Zubayda had more information that could save innocent lives, but he stopped talking…And so the CIA used an alternative set of procedures…The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively and determined them to be lawful…. But I can say the procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.
Zubayda was questioned using these procedures, and soon he began to provide information on key al-Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September the 11th. For example, Zubayda identified one of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s accomplices in the 9/11 attacks — a terrorist named Ramzi bin al Shibh. The information Zubayda provided helped lead to the capture of bin al Shibh. And together these two terrorists provided information that helped in the planning and execution of the operation that captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
Saving Lives?
Bush claimed that his interrogation program had saved lives, and Kiriakou says the use of waterboarding “probably saved lives.” We cannot know for sure if this is true. Off-the-record interviews with intelligence officials strongly suggest that there is much prevarication and exaggeration in the president’s claims about lives saved and operations disrupted, and that his assertions merit no more credulity than other claims—for example, that Iran’s nuclear weapons program poses a threat to the U.S., even though it has been stopped for four years.
Other U.S. intelligence officials take issue with the C.I.A.’s version of the questioning of Zubayda. Some say that initially he was cooperating with F.B.I. interrogators using a nonconfrontational approach, when the C.I.A. assumed control and opted for more aggressive tactics. After that experience, the F.B.I. reportedly warned its agents to avoid interrogation sessions at which harsh methods were used.
As for credibility, never has a U.S. president’s word been so cheapened as it is today. In late July 2007, we Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity joined with Justin Frank, MD, psychiatrist, professor at George Washington University Hospital, and author of “Bush on the Couch,” to search for insight on how President Bush thinks. See “Dangers of a Cornered Bush,” from which we excerpt the following:
His pathology is a patchwork of false beliefs and incomplete information woven into what he asserts is the whole truth…He lies—not just to us, but to himself as well…What makes lying so easy for Bush is his contempt—for language, for law, and for anybody who dares question him…. So his words mean nothing. That is very important for people to understand.
This Is Oversight?
The past few weeks have witnessed an unseemly square dance in Congress, highlighting conflicting claims about what those who are supposed to be overseeing the intelligence community knew and when they knew it—about torture, about Iran, about many things. It is nothing short of an insult to the Founders that members of the House and Senate can find nothing more useful to do than wring their hands over their largely self-inflicted powerlessness.
Lawmakers have been so thoroughly intimidated by the White House that I get physically ill watching the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Jane Harman, Bob Graham, and Jay Rockefeller moan about how secretive and nasty the Bush administration has been. Harman complained recently that when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee some of the material (on interrogations) was so highly classified that she had to take a “second oath” to protect it.
What about the solemn oath they all take to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Should not that oath transcend and govern others that an administration might require for access to secret materials?
Senator Dick Durbin of the Senate Intelligence Committee has complained that he was aware that classified information did not justify the conclusion in 2002 that Iraq had unconventional weapons, but he could not say anything because it was classified! Durbin explained:
…We’re duty-bound once we enter that room to respect classified information. Everything you hear is supposed to stay in the room…I certainly had enough to know that the statements that were made about mushroom clouds were not the conclusions of someone in the administration who was really being honest about the full debate. But you really know, walking in the room, what the rules of the game will be.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, has admitted knowing for several years about the Bush administration’s eavesdropping on Americans without a court warrant. She was briefed on it when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee when Bush and Cheney took office. One key unanswered question is this: Was she told that within days of their taking office—that is, seven months before 9/11, the National Security Agency’s electronic vacuum cleaner had already begun to suck up information on Americans—the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, not to mention the Constitution, be damned?
In a Washington Post op-ed of Jan. 15, 2006, Pelosi proudly advertised her uniquely long tenure on the Intelligence Committee and acknowledged that she was one of the privileged handful of lawmakers who were briefed. “This is how I came to be informed of President Bush’s authorization for the NSA to conduct certain types of surveillance,” she wrote. Pelosi then proceeded to demonstrate the bowing and scraping characteristic of her subservient attitude toward the Executive Branch:
“But when the administration notifies Congress in this manner, it is not seeking approval. There is a clear expectation that the information will be shared by no one, including other members of the intelligence committees. As a result, only a few members of Congress were aware of the president’s surveillance program, and they were constrained from discussing it more widely.”
And so too, may we assume, with respect to torture? This is oversight?
Neutered Watchdogs: Rockefeller and Reyes
What can we expect from the current Senate and House oversight chairmen regarding the recently disclosed, deliberate destruction of two tapes of harsh interrogations of Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri? (Al-Nashiri is thought to have played a role in the attack on the USS Cole.) On the Senate side, expect nothing of Mr. Milquetoast Jay Rockefeller, chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, who, it is said, is so afraid of his own shadow that he only ventures outdoors at night or in bad weather.
House Intelligence Committee Chairman Silvestre Reyes has a different kind of problem, and should recuse himself. He has been fawning all over José Rodriguez, the former CIA Deputy Director of Operations who ordered the tapes destroyed.
On August 16, 2007 Congressman Reyes told a conference in El Paso he considered Rodriguez “an American hero,” proudly adding that, “with a few liberties that Hollywood takes, the exploits of José Rodriguez are documented in the FOX TV series “24.” I am told that almost every episode of “24” includes at least one scene glorifying torture, usually with lead man Jack Bauer playing a main role. Reyes made it clear he is a big fan of Bauer and “24.”
Were that not enough, after Rodriguez’ role in destroying the interrogation tapes became public, Reyes immediately cautioned against allowing investigations to find just one “scapegoat” (no secret to whom he was referring). And so, unless Reyes does recuse himself, look for a “complete and thorough” investigation of the kind favored by the Nixon White House. (Just when you may have thought it could not get any worse!)
Torture as Technique: Stark Differences in View
On Sept. 6, 2006, the very day Bush bragged about his “alternative set of procedures for interrogation” and appealed for legislation allowing the C.I.A. to continue using them, the head of Army intelligence, Lt. Gen. John Kimmons, took a very different tack. Conducting a Pentagon briefing shortly before the president gave his own speech, Kimmons underscored the fact that the revised Army manual for interrogation is in sync with the Geneva treaties. Then, conceding past “transgressions and mistakes,” Kimmons updated something I learned 45 years ago as a second lieutenant in Army intelligence:
“No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that.”
Grabbing the headlines the following day, was Bush’s admission that the CIA has taken “high-value” captives to prisons abroad for interrogation using “tough” techniques prohibited by the revised Army field manual—and by Geneva, for that matter. Gen. Kimmons displayed uncommon courage in facing into that wind.
How About— Stop Torture Because It’s Wrong?
Have you noticed the shameful silence of our institutional churches, synagogues, and mosques? True, on occasion a professor of moral theology will speak out. Professor William Schweiker of the Chicago Divinity School, for example, has heaped scorn on the scenario of the lone knower of the facts whose torture is thought to be able to save millions of lives. He notes that such is “the stuff of bad spy movies and bad exam questions in ethics courses.” Schweiker warns Christians, in particular:
“Not to fall prey to fear and questionable reasoning and thus continue to support an unjust and vile practice that demeans the nation’s highest political and moral ideals, even as it desecrates one of the most important practices and symbols (Baptism) of the Christian faith.”
And, to its credit, the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, a coalition of 130 religious organizations from left to right on the political spectrum, yesterday issued a strong call for the appointment of a special counsel to investigate the C.I.A.’s destruction of the videotapes of harsh interrogations. NRCAT’s founder, Princeton Theological Seminary professor George Hunsinger told the press that “to acknowledge that waterboarding is torture is like conceding that the sun rises in the east,” adding:
“All the dissembling in high places that makes these shocking abuses possible must be brought to an end. But they will undoubtedly continue unless those responsible for them are held accountable. Clearly a joint probe by the Justice Department and the CIA — agencies that are both seriously compromised — is not enough. A special counsel is an essential first step.”
But where are the official voices of the institutional churches, synagogues, and mosques in this country? In effect, they are ordaining Jack Bauer with their silence.
This Happened Before
With very few exceptions, the institutional churches in Nazi Germany kept a shameful silence, denying believers the moral authority and leadership so needed to stand up to Gestapo torturers. Indeed, many of the bishops—like military leaders, and jurists—swore a personal oath to Hitler. For his part, the Nazi leader moved quite quickly to ensure that there was a pastor—whether Lutheran or Catholic—in every parish in Germany. He saw this as a source of support and stability for his regime. And, sadly, it was.
While the Nazis were systematically torturing and even murdering defenseless victims, they kept repeating assurances that not a single hair of anyone’s head would be harmed. (Shades of the familiar refrain “we do not torture.”) And the propaganda machine under Joseph Goebbels made a fine art of what President Bush calls the need to “catapult the propaganda.”
Sebastian Haffner, a young German lawyer in Berlin during the Thirties kept a journal that his children subsequently published in book form as “Defying Hitler.” His fascinating account of Germany in the Thirties provides many thoughtful insights into prevailing attitudes and the lack of moral leadership. Haffner’s journal depicted the kind of ambiance in which the approach of the Grand Inquisitor would, and did, flourish—“in the end they will lay their freedom at our feet [and] become obedient.” Haffner wrote:
“The weather in March 1933 was glorious. Was it not wonderful to…merge with festive crowds and listen to speeches about freedom and homeland? (It was certainly better than having one’s belly pumped up with a water hose in some hidden secret police cellar.)”
Breeding and Breakdown
Haffner closes his chapter on 1933 with observations that, in my view, apply much too aptly to America today:
“The sequence of events is, as you see, not so unnatural. It is wholly within the normal range of psychology, and it helps to explain the almost inexplicable. The only thing that is missing is what in animals is called ‘breeding.’ This is a solid inner kernel that cannot be shaken by external pressures and forces, something noble and steely, a reserve of pride, principle, and dignity to be drawn on in the hour of trial. It is missing in Germans. As a nation we are soft, unreliable, and without backbone. That was shown in March 1933. At the moment of truth, when other nations rise spontaneously to the occasion, the Germans collectively and limply collapsed. They yielded and capitulated, and suffered a nervous breakdown.”
C.I.A.’s John Kiriakou says he is now convinced that waterboarding is torture and he is against it. He adds, “Americans are better than that.”
But Are We Better Than That?
Sadly, that remains to be seen. With virtually all religious institutions, politicians, and educators all squandering what moral authority they have left, the Jack Bauer culture threatens to win out in the end. We cannot let that happen.
The upcoming duel on the missing interrogation tapes will again bring the issue of torture front and center. And, strangely, waterboarding and other Jack Bauer tradecraft tools still enjoy a strong constituency.
Here’s where we come in; for we are the ones we’ve been waiting for. As one of my intelligence alumni colleagues noted recently, this is about our country losing its soul. Let’s rise to the occasion and stop unconscionable policies like torture. True patriotism goes well beyond wearing flag on lapel. As Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. noted, “Sometimes you have to put your body into it.”
Besides, we need to keep the water hose from pumping up our bellies and those of our loved ones. I only wish that this were as remote a possibility as it was before President Bush and his associates came up with their “alternative set of procedures.”
Ray McGovern works with Tell the Word, the publishing arm of the ecumenical Church of the Saviour in Washington, DC. He was an Army officer and then a C.I.A. analyst for 27 years, and now serves on the Steering Group of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).


















I’ve been reading Ray’s and VIPS stuff since February 2003. He is a real American hero.
I salute you Ray McGovern.
ArchBishop Tutu on the torture
http://hoosierinva.blogspot.com/2007/12/desmond-tutu-us-detention-
and-torture.html
Ray just reading your post while linking to the Democratic Presidential debate.
http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan3_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS3
Sorry. Archbishop Tutu on torture
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22903680-23109,00.html
Ray I have spread your words far and wide in the blog world. This article is so powerful.
I know when I hear Former and present CIA analyst (Ray , Larry, Plame) and officers come down firmly that these “enhanced techniques” are torture and how critical it is to follow International Law, Geneva Convention and stay away from this very dangerous slippery slope it helps me understand how serious this issue is.
I know from the outside looking in how difficult it would be to resist techniques that one might think would work to get people to talk if you thought you would be able to save a multitude of lives. If individuals like yourself, Larry, Plame and other folks on the inside can maintain such an honorable stance on this issue that lets me know what responsible people that have, are and will be within the CIA and other intelligence organizations. Thanks for your work and helping us understand.
Reading again
Who is invested in this regime of torture?
Bush, obviously. The leading GOP candidates as well. St. John McCain has lost all credibility on this point. (See Military Commissions Act).
But also, it seems the leadership of the democratic party are just as guilty. They have known the score for a very long time and CHOSE to remain silent.
Which is worse? The torturer or the enabler?
For the victim of torture, it matters little. Both the enabler and the torturer are the mechanisms of cruelty.
And what is the most horrific? Most Americans don’t seem to give a good god damn…..
So of the Dem gang of eight, was Jane Harman the only one with a tad of conscience?
Man, I’m disappointed in Bob Graham.
And to think Pelosi was pulling the high moral ground bs on Harman..friggin’ disgusting.
The intelligence officers who stood fast for the release of the current NIE were ready to be arrested and sacrifice their careers.
….And to think Pelosi was pulling the high moral ground bs on Harman..friggin’ disgusting….
It will be interesting to hear more on Pelosi’s role. I heard she and staff were briefed 30 times in 2002.
I remember the day Pelosi was sworn in as Speaker. I was watching it on CNN and the moment she began to speak, somebody came on my I/M and said, “Still tough”? “Nobody can ever change your point of view”.
In Pelosi’s defense, we don’t know what she was told specifically about Bush’s domestic spy program. She may have been repeatedly briefed, but that doesn’t mean the White House shared any details. Consider how secretive they are, the contempt they have for Congress and how often they’ve argued they’re following the law [Yoo's interpretation of it].
I’m more inclined to believe Pelosi didn’t know the details and couldn’t find out how Bush was breaking the law…to give her the benefit of the doubt…than to hang her without a trial.
Ugh, just reading the WaPo article about the waterboarding briefings with Pelosi, Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).
OK, hang Pelosi! According to WaPo, Pelosi never objected to the technique!?
Bloody hell!
It would be interesting to know exactly WHO ALL, besides the above mentioned, were actually in on those thirty briefings. Those doing the demonstrating must have certainly posessed some very convincing traits. Maybe it was charisma.
Who is trotting Kiriakou out? Folks don’t go on ABC and talk torture too often without being ignorant, or being admin plants. It is hard to think of ABC as airing a video like this without checking it’s contents with the ovp, and well before it shows up on TV. Their chokehold on broadcast is better than that isn’t it?
doesn’t add up yet
Rays fundamental question ” Are Americans really better than that” has had me deeply concerned sense before the invasion. When friends and I were protesting before the invasion we would run into more folks than I would like to remember who often had Christian crosses around their necks and would scream out things like “go bomb them all, get rid of them , nuke them” I mean frightening things.
And while there were hundreds of thousands of middle Americans who marched against the invasion..went to three anti invasion marches (two in the fall of 2002 in D.C. and one in Feb of 2003 in New York) where teachers, WWII, (marched with several older gents who were in their 90’s) Korean, Vietnam, Desert Storm Vets, plumbers, students, social workers, families pushing babies in strollers and grandparents in wheelchairs. It was inspiring. But the MSM did not give fair or accurate coverage on who was actually at these marches. I have worried about the millions upon millions of Americans who may be concerned but do nothing absolutely nothing. No e-mails, phone calls visits to reps. Who are complacent, apathetic and numb. Oh I know people will make excuses for not responding, I am busy, feel over whelmed, do not know what to do etc. Just excuses in my book
Based on this lack of reaction, lack of concern for the Iraqi people’s lives and welfare I have started to understand why people fear us. Many Americans do not seem concerned about what this government does around the world. Somehow the Iraqi people do not count (hell they don’t count) the Lancet Report did. Over a million dead now as a direct result of our invasion.
As Americans drive to the malls, with their pedals to the metal to buy shit from China, there are 4 million IRaqi refugees who have been displaced because of my country and we barely hear this talked about and it is certainly not mentioned on the news.
Are Americans better than that? I don’t know.
Some Americans are better than that, and you, Kathleen, are one of them,
thanks but I am just one of many who are trying including yourself, Larry, Susan, so many other bloggers and honorable CIA folks, Republicans( I did talk with quite a few at those marches). although there are too many with that “go bomb them all” for my peace of mind.
Have folks seen this? some good news
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22244282/
Senate Judiciary votes Bolten, Rove in contempt
Republicans may be able to block the citations with a procedural hurdle
WASHINGTON - The Senate Judiciary Committee voted on Thursday to hold two top aides to President George W. Bush in contempt of Congress for refusing to cooperate in its probe of fired federal prosecutors.
kathleen:
Thanks so much for the research you do and post here for all of us to read…
You really add to the clicks the hoopster does daily..thanks for that.
Best wishes and a merry Christmas to you and your family..
The water torture in its various forms has been used by USA troops since at least the war of Northern aggression. If I were motivated enough I could probably dredge up some examples of forced water torture going back to the English ancestors and probably back to the romans.
It was used in the Phillipines during the American empire build there.
It was used in Vietnam ( larry was thoughtful enough to include a picture of US water torture a few days ago )
I have no citations to its use in WWI nor in WWII in the European theatre. So the answer to “Are Americans better than that?” would depend on who the fearsome enemy of the moment is. Now if one expands beyond the specific torture to the general question of torture. The answer is no. Torture is s.o.p.
Ask the Amerindians, ask the ghost from the Phoenix project, ask the Irish catholic ghosts from the Mexican war, ask Noreiga in his solitary confinement going on 20+ years, ask the witches of Salem. Ask the guy who had his genitalia mutilated by CIA employees in Morocco or the Iraqi women held in Abu Ghraib. Oh the humanity oh the handwringing oh the vaunted ability to always be able to blame the bad apple and ignore the rotted barrel. You want an empire; you accept that torture will be used in furtherance of your wants.
The proper term for that particular conflict is the American Civil War. And the first shots fired at Fort Sumter were fired by those wearing gray.
And let us not forget why your ancestors took up arms against their countrymen - in order to be able to own other human beings as personal property, among other reasons.
I have been meaning to ask you what your favorite lens is.
It is informative that in this day and age we are all enslaved. The twist in the plot is that this bondage was a achieved thru our own collective consent,at great cost. This evening my sane half noticed that our “request for absentee ballots” were printed in two different colors. It is safe to say it is easier to just sort by color before being tossed in the electoral round file.
We have let the DOJ become an instument of privation. I was raised with the understanding that DOJ does not; does not answer to the squaters at 1600, who have relegated the DOJ to the redlight district of history. I would go there to retrieve it, but sadly I only know where the statues are in DC.
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/12/13/white_house_contempt_citations_futile/4345/
The House specifically re-outlawed waterboarding and the President makes the following response which flat out says we can’t do our job without it and calling it legal?
It can’t get better than that.
Indeed? A foreign interloper was attempting to re-inforce and re-arm a permanent base. The interloper was fired upon. It is what any sovereign nation would do. The war of Northern Aggression was begun over money. Specifically the industrial north wanted to maintain high tariffs and the lawful succession of the southern states meant that those artificial tarrifs could not be maintained. The south being mostly agrarian was a successul exporting area and favoured low or 0 tariffs. Given the new and much longer land border that would exist following the exit of the confederacy, it would be physically impossible for the North to maintain the tariffs. The trade would have flowed to the low tariff harbours and thence inland and eventually across the porous land boundries and into the North.
Freeing the slaves became the civil war equivalent of “exporting democracy”. A convenient excuse developed two years after the fact. The emancipation proclamation was very specific, it only freed the slaves in those areas the Northern government had no control over, it left the status quo ( legal slavery ) in all those areas over which the Northern government held sway.
History aside, water torture was SOP in that war and has been a part of the US inventory of interrogation techniques for well over 145 years.
Bull shit, CK! That just an excuse…the “war of northern aggression.” It was a fucking civil war you liar.
To say that freeing the slaves is the same, or no different from, the Bush Administration’s so-called exportation of “democracy” is just total hogwash!
The south, being mostly agrarian, was economically dependent on slavery, and didn’t give it up until it was forced to.
You are a neo-confederate.
And water torture has been around a lot longer than 145 years. Torture is torture, and it’s wrong. And so was the south’s commitment to slavery.
Lazy southerners were drunked up on Moonshine. That’s why they needed slaves. So of course, they thought it was a war of aggression.
The south left the union peacefully. The north kept permanent bases in the south over the south’s peaceful requests that the bases be removed or sold. The North forced the issue. Is it necessary to reiterate that Lincoln was against Free Blacks being allowed to become citizens of Illinois when he was in office there? Is it necessary to remember that it was Lincoln who attempted to return the blacks to Africa before and during the war? When the Union armies started having difficulty enslaving more conscripts, then the huge moral issue of slavery became the Union dog whistle note to whip up the base.
To the FedGov leaders at the time, the slavery issue was exactly the same as the export democracy issue is to the fedgov leaders today. Guaranteed dogwhistle to whip up the fundy jingos. Except when the wrong people get elected ( hezbullah, hamas …) then exporting democracy has to be amended. As to the North’s dedication to black emancipation — Jim Crow ring a bell?
And as I said in my initial post, water torture probably goes back to pre-roman times.
In your response you called me a liar, a hogwasher and a neo-confederate. I believe you to be incorrect on two of the three.
In my youth I did slop and sometimes hose down hogs.
By what Congressional vote what that ratified, exactly?
Personally, I wish the South had not been allowed to rejoin the United States afterwards. No Gingrich, no Lott, no Thurmond, it’s all starting to sound pretty good, actually, and while the idea of a large, largely semiliterate Third World nation on a much longer southern border is not that appealing, we’d have found a way to make things work without you.
No congressional or constitutional procedure was necessary for any state to leave the United States. The United States at the time was a voluntary aggregation of separate states. The threat of secession was used by many of the Union states prior to the War of Northern Aggression. Congressional approval was only necessary for new accretions to the existing number of states. It was to correct a flaw in the Articles of Confederation relating to the admittance of new states that the constitutional convention was called.
The election of Lincoln, a railroad lobbyist and lawyer and confirmed and committed high tariff advocate was the last straw for the Southern agricultural states. The benefecience of the Northern States towards their enslaved southern black brethern would of course have drained the entire black population from the Southern states to Canada where all the underground railroads had their final exit. ( The labouring classes in the North had no desire to add a large supply of newly available and low cost labour ) The southern agriculturalists bereft of their very expensive slave labour ( slaves don’t pay for their food clothing shelter etc. One of the aspects of slavery is that the slave owner bears the total cost of upkeep for all his field slaves and all his house slaves) would have had to industrialize and mechanize much faster … shall we continue our varied alternative history fictions?
New Jersey just abolished the Death Penalty. Even though southerners love the death penalty, there has always been more crime in the south. This proves that their uneducated, racist, vindictive, war mongering mentalities just won’t allow them to understand that the death penalty is not a deterrent.
“New Jersey just abolished the Death Penalty” True.
“Even though southerners love the death penalty,” Some support it, some don’t support it. New Jersey is a sovereign state of course and has the constitutional right to set its own penalties for crimes ( unless of course the FedGov steps in and stifles or usurpts them.)
“there has always been more crime in the south.” Any proof to be offered for this assertion? Per capita, racial distribution of victims and perpetrators,
time frame, anything at all?
The “law” as it is practiced in the USA is about retribution and punishment; the law is not about justice or restoration or deterence. The “law” is an interpretive performance art backed up by armed agents with a vested interest in extending the performance.
Another bit of good news
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..torture_dc
House votes to outlaw CIA waterboarding
By Thomas Ferraro 1 hour, 9 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Defying a White House veto threat, the U.S. House of Representatives voted on Thursday to outlaw harsh interrogation methods, such as simulated drowning, that the CIA has used against suspected terrorists.
On a largely party line vote of 222-199, the Democratic-led House approved a measure to require intelligence agents to comply with the Army Field Manual, which bans torture in compliance with the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war.
reply
Hope this works. good news
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071213/pl_nm/security_usa_torture_dc
Sad story really..The united States of america needs to vote for morals? that we won’t torture people… We the people will not stoop down to the lowest denominator of human existance..
I wonder what happened to the thousand points of light? The Light shinning upon the hill? A nation founded upon God and his laws?
We can’t defeat the ‘enemy’ without becoming the enemy? Where is our rightousness?
In Sackcloth and ashes? Has America thrown the pearls before the swine?
I can’t answer those questions..
That’s as deep as the hoopster can go..We have lost our way..And now for a common expression that invokes distain among the Right wing bloggers.
I BLAME BUSH
That’s why we need a change of direction and no GOP canadate can provide that..Not Rudy, huckleberry dog, Ron Paul or Fred..
We need change like we have never needed change before..
Ray what an extremely informative and powerfully moving piece.
I have not read Brothers Karamazov But this quote sounds like a late 19th century Psychopath speaking or our own Cheney/Bush Adminstration:
As to Americans being better than that..I only can hope so. I heard John Kiriakou interviewed on NPR’s All Things Considered last night. Ths guy is unbelievable! His entire interview was nothing more than Situational Ethics depending on what year it is. But his final remark actaully had me stop the car, and begin literally screaming at the radio (something I have never done before)- He said ” American’s should not be ashamed but proud that we waterboarded Zubayda!
Is this guy still considered sane??
Nellie, would you e-mail me? Thank you. susanunpc at gmail dot com
Done as requested.
So I guess it can get better or I am not a Newt.
Jeffrey Taylor, interim US attorney for the District of Columbia was involved in the vetting process of the US attorney scandel and may end up with the case. If his tenure ends before this matter is refererd to the DOJ, I wonder who will get the case and what excuse the current AG will come up with…
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071207J.shtml
President Theodore Roosevelt said in his 1906 State of the Union address, “No man can take part in the torture of a human being without having his own moral nature permanently lowered.”………………………………
h/t wren
“Another highly regarded intelligence agent, Larry Johnson, goes the next step. He’s reasonably certain, he says in a radio interview, that President Bush has personally viewed the torture tape–the same tapes that were destroyed to avoid having to turn them over under a federal court order.”
http://harpers.org/archive/2007/12/hbc-90001903
There’s a window of time from his turkey day Baghdad visit that he could have personally visited Abu Gharib or other nearby jails and prisoner facilities.
The great Harper’s piece continues:
Then again, President Roosevelt rode into combat with the Rough Riders. Bush bumbles through bike rides at Camp David. One man knew what war was like and what it did to others who served. One likes war and knew that he would send others.
Mr. Murder just posed your post as a question on the Diane Rehm show. Hope it gets on. Did not use your name
Thanks, Kathleen.
It isn’t about the name it’s about the message.
Teddy set the standard for what the GOP should aim, he left the party and ran against the Repub Nominee as a Progressive after the GOP kicked him out over being a Trustbuster.
To Just answer your headline; in a word, No. I would never have believed that a time would come in the year 2007 that there would actually be conversations, discussions, and arguments about torture in the United States of America. I would have thought that the people of this country would have risen up in righteous indignation and condemnation that anyone in “their” government would demean “their” country by even suggesting that we would torture and if someone in our government did torture that it was all right if it kept us safe. The silly Hollywood scenario about the ticking clock. Too many people watching “24″ perhaps? There are some who are genuinely disgusted and dismayed at the path the Bush Administration has taken our country down. For the most part; apathy, ignorance and bed-wetting little fraidy cats that don’t care what happens to anyone else so long as it makes them feel safe. Land of the Free and Home of the Brave? I think not. Not anymore anyway.
“……this is about our country losing its soul. Let’s rise to the occasion and stop unconscionable policies like torture.”
The only way we can stop all this is by Impeachment.
Yes Give Impeachment a chance. Let’s keep pushing. Folks like Larry, Susan, Valerie and Joe Wilson, Senator Leahy , Helen Thomas give me hope.
So terribly tragic that as our pendulum has swung that 1 million Iraqi lives, 4000 American lives , so many injured and 4 million Iraqi lives have been caught in the path of that swing. CRIMINAL
Christy Hardin Smith over at FDL is back. I love when she is all feisty calling bullshit “bullshit” and ready to kick some ass. What in hell did we do before the Christy’s , Marcy’s and Larry bloggers were stirring it up.
http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/14/latest-tricks-fisa-the-courts-the-petulant-unilateral-executive-an
d-you/
I know many of us were calling, e-mailing, visiting our reps and marching in the streets, but now it is happening with even more spunk and spirit.
It is rather funny how those on the cultural right were the most loudly critical of ’situational ethics’ and of ‘defining deviancy downward’.
From what I hear on talk radio and read on the web and see on tv, the nation is on the edge of the abyss..Check that…we have plunged into the abyss.
A domestic terrorist attack would prompt anti-Muslim pogrems in the US.
People would volunteer to be camp kapos.
This experiment is done.
-GSD
The American Dream has been turned into a Fascist Nightmare…deliberately, premeditatively.
And per Bush’s claims in his Sep. 6, 2006 address, wasn’t this speech after BushCo had exposed the Khan operation in Pakistan, an operation involving British/Pakistani intelligence wherein an al Qaeda computer geek was cooperating in identifying and locating suspected al Qaeda operatives via email messages (and possibly cell phone communications)?
In other words, while Bush was touting the value of torture on Sep. 6, 2006 in locating suspected al Qaeda terrorists, will we ever know whether it was Khan’s cooperation that actually exposed and led to the capture of some of the al Qaeda operatives mentioned in Bush’s address?
I personally do not trust anything Bush or his mouthpieces say…because everything they say and do screams FASCISM.
And now I read that biometrics are being used in Iraq to identify “suspects” who may be summarily executed on the spot, as per a Bush/Cheney directive, with this biometric information being stored in some data-mining facility (private contractor?) in West Virginia. Are these biometric procedures already being used inside the United States? Aimed at whom? Anyone that disagrees with the Fascist policies of the Bush/Cheney administration?
I’m not amused. I served in the U.S. Air Force. I swore an oath (which I still honor) to uphold and defend our Constitution, our democracy, from all enemies, both foreign and domestic. And fascism, no matter what degree is advocated or practiced, is definitely antithetical to any democracy, to any freedom-loving society.
Oracle:
And now I read that biometrics are being used in Iraq to identify “suspects” who may be summarily executed on the spot, as per a Bush/Cheney directive, with this biometric information being stored in some data-mining facility (private contractor?) in West Virginia
What and where are you reading this?
Are Americans Really “Better Than That?”
- a fable story of human nature; The Frog and the Scorpion
A frog was getting ready to cross a river, when he was approached by a scorpion who asked if he could hitch a ride, because he couldn’t swim. The frog said, “No way! It’s my nature to be trusting and generous, but you’ll sting me and I’ll drown”. The scorpion said, “I most certainly will not sting you, because then I will drown as well.”
This sounded reasonable, so the trusting generous frog let the scorpion climb on his back for a ride to swim across the river. Halfway across, the scorpion stung the frog.
“What did you do that for, now both of us are going to drown!” the frog exclaimed. “I couldn’t help it. I’m a scorpion, and it’s in my nature” he replied. “But you promised it was not in your best interest” the frog complained, while starting to choke on water. Above the rising water, the scorpion said, “Well, you knew I was a scorpion when you met me.”
Quiz time:
Out of the following, who plays the role of the frog, and who plays the scorpion? George Bush, Dick Cheney, Adolph Hitler, Jane Harman, Nancy Pelosi, Silvestre Reyes, Larry Johnson, Ray McGovern, Bill Moyers, the writers of the TV show ‘24′, me as I write this, and finally, you yourself the reader?
Answer:
Because of our human nature, any of us can play either role. In fact, all of us are both the frog and the scorpion in different ways at different times.
SO WHAT?
Because so many people actually believe that “it can’t happen here”, that’s so what. In fact, self-righteousness is a blindness to ourselves.
Still, some will read this and think, “but I myself really am better than that. Surely I know myself enough to know at least that much.” Really? Are you sure about that? Consider something that many researchers in psychology will tell you, based on poll results. Read carefully. A majority of people believe that their own moral standards are better than those of a majority of other people. One problem; it can’t possibly be true because it’s a mathmatical impossibility. Or put another way, beware of your own self-righteousness, because it’s in your nature.
Our ancestors fought a revolution against an imperialist king who in turn was descended from people who forged the Magna Carta. Nazis were enabled not only by militant authoritarians, but also by priests, mayors, news reporters, store owners, farmers, factory workers and basically a lot of other people just like you and me.
How many in October 2001 wished they could squeeze Osama bin Laden’s neck until his head exploded? Following that, how many thought the cashier at 7-11 looked a lot like Osama bin Laden? If you answered yes to that last question, who was the victor and who was the loser, you or Osama bin Laden? More to the point of torture; who’s the victor and whose the loser, the one who extracts intelligence by torturing, the subject of the intelligence, or all the rest of us?
Final quiz question:
It’s likely that at times, we’ve already met the scorpion in ourselves. Did we recognize him? Are we sure we know which times we did not recognize him?
Answer:
Sooner or later the truth will find us; so we might as well be looking for it.
[...] tortur i øvrigt har Ray McGovern en længere klamamse på No Quarter, som absolut er værd at læse. Samme sted spørger værten Larry Johnson, hvordan det kan være, [...]
Interesting…
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