Words and the Power of Words: Rove on Obama
By Fleaflicker on April 12, 2008 at 10:14 PM in Barack Obama, Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, Karl Rove
I find no pleasure in posting this video. I fully expect to be drawn and quartered by my peers. But if we are smart we will pay attention to what the opposition is doing & saying. And the dude in this video is definitely the opposition. The only trouble is, he is smart and in this video he is right. At least listen to what he is saying before taking my head off.
(small, medium and large sizes; for both dogs and cats)
+ 
I have no problem with seeing this video here… because the fact is the republicans and the Roves are who the Dems need to beat in November. We can learn a lot from Rove, and how things will stack up in the GE against the GE. Sometimes it’s like the OBamacrats forget that there is another election after the primary, where we have to actually beat a republican.
Um… what do you mean another election after the primary? I thought after we get Hillary to quit they just would give Barry the keys to the white house.
Dying here…
This is still my favorite Rove clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5N6M7zKUUk&feature=related
They figure that McCain will see what an uphill battle it will be, and will just GIVE up. And Obama will POTUS.. Of course by the time they come out there coma it will be far too late.
Catriley, sometimes I think the OBamacrats think they’re going to get to caucus in November, where their tactics work better than when people actually get to vote.
ummm let´s see Barry still has more wins in non-caucus states than the Hillary Inc.
Oh yeah small states don´t count…oh well now they do because we´re outraged now so we do care about small states.
I´m bitter…why aren´t you?
obama can make excuses if he wants. he still cannot hide from his gaffe.
I had to turn it off. I absolutely cannot look at that fat scumbag and those smarmy young white republicans lapping it up. maybe you could post a few crucial quotes.
I know. They are gross and disgusting. I stand by my first sentence.
I agree, I can’t stand to look at them either.
I’m always of the impression, Rove, and the other lardy cats, move to a dog whistle, played at a frequency only they can hear, so shrill it would split the normal human ear.
Drove them crazy, I think.
Who is whistling, though, I don’t know…
I despise Axelrod, given the real damage Rove and co have done, they’re worse.
I hope his ass joins Obama’s in prison…
I see no difference between the fascist followers of Rove and the Republicans and the fascist followers of Obama. Frankly, I cannot tell them apart. I do think it’s clear that Hillary Clinton could stand up to Rove and debate him and win. I think it’s obvious that in the same situation, Rove would have Obama crying and grabbing his knees. I do not know why the Democratic party cannot see this. Do they really want to prove some point to some group of people so badly that they are willing to lose the general election and lose seats for Dems from county commissioner on up? I’m starting to think that the good Dems need to stop taking crap from the bad Dems. We’ve kind of been like that parent that sits there in some lecture or movie or something and lets their kids smack them on the head, scream at the top of their lungs, dump ice cream on the stranger sitting next to them…(you know those wonderful parents) and expect everyone else who’s evening is being ruined to think that their heinous, uncontrollable offspring are swell. I’m afraid it is time for the good Dems to say NO. NO Nancy you can’t have your way. NO Donna you can’t pour ice cream on the heads of those people. NO Howard you have to stop screaming at the top of your lungs. It’s time for our party to take out the children who can’t play well with others and who have no acceptable behavior. It is time for a big time out. It is time for the adults to be adults.
Block Dean’s nomination of Obamatrons for the convention leaders. NO Nancy. Go sit in the corner until you can play nicely….
sounds like you just need to leave the party…you don´t like anyone any more…except maybe McSame…
I watched it but it was horrible. You wonder if that group would reach for their cell phones to call in a flat tire for a stranded motorist whose car was “different” than theirs.
The clip did accomplish one important thing. If there is no HRC to vote for in November, I will NOT be voting Republican either … I will write her name in and change affiliations so that when I vote FOR someone, I am not scolded and accused of voting for “wedge” issues that work against me.
The Republicans will obliterate Obama if the election is a national security election.
The republican ’swiftboat’ offensive against Obama will be a bloodbath. The republicans will not even need to lie about Obama. The truth will be sufficient.
Should Obama win the nomination, there is one positive note: after November, he will be done with.
Though I shudder to think who Iowa will give us in ‘12.
I mean “them.” If Obama wins, I’ll probably go independent.
All too true. Even if McCain totally spaces out the Republican party will create the image of him that will destroy us.
McCain won’t have to do much. Those 527s will take care of it. Then Obama will be going into his fetal position like that other wimp Kerry did.
You are correct. The GOP can and has easily beaten the evil LIBERAL LEFT.
But the Clintons, that is a different story as they are Centrist (FDR) progressives who successfully redefined the New Deal. It’s a harder argument that’s why they had to rig FLORIDA in 2000 in the great HIJACK. Gore is a New Democrat like the Clintons. When the party veers left the GOP succeeds in painting us as culture war anti-american uber evil liberals.
Radical…Radical…Radical…Will be the chant coming from the right.
I like the fact that he quotes Ted Kennedy and Kerry, as well as Clinton. But it’s hard to listen to him. Know your enemy is a smart strategy. Obama should be listening to Rove.
Obama has been listening to Rove–or at least Axelrod has.
BINGO!! - this point cannot be made often enough. What Obama did in SF was to allow us a peak into how he thinks “when he’s not thinking”. He and his strategists have built their campaign on this very fundamental belief. Clinton continues to run her campaign taking a “positive mental attitude” towards the people she hopes to serve. She wants her citizens to stop being angry at situations they CAN’T change and turn positive energy toward workable solutions. BIG DIFFERENCE in core values and beliefs.
Clinton will rebuild the economy and begin the reduction of the deficit, she will do this using a manufacturing Green industry. Similar to what the Clinton/Gore administration accomplished with the Internet industry. It would’ve happened anyway but for the HIJACK of 2000. It’s a classic New Democrat platform. Wish more democrats realized that this is about a power struggle for the party and the party paltform. We either continue to move progressive or we veer left. Whenever we have veered left ( Carter anyone ? ) we set up another 8 yrs. of uber conservative domination. Why? Because liberals can’t run a country is the argument. It’s hard to argue that against the legitimate heirs to the Progressive Movement built by the Progrossive Action Heroes Teddy Roosevelt ( Rep. ) and FDR ( Dem. )
What is the difference between veering left, and Cheney?
It has nothing to do with politics, and everything to do with putting United States money into the hands of business, mediocre business men who can’t run the country, in conjunction with even less talented ops, and advisers and politicians.
So, Cheney and K## and Obama and Axelrod are the same, financed by the same people, the Carlyle group, among them.
These people LOST two wars, three if you count the greater asymmetric war.
I have nothing but scorn and contempt for them, the most untalented group of posers I have witnessed.
Stupid pieces of sh**.
I’m not taking your head off. If Obama thinks he’s ready for this sort of rhetorical pantsing, he’s DREAMING. This is what he and his supporters will be up against, and this is what he will be SHREDDED by in the fall if, God forbid, he is our nominee.
There is ONE Democratic nominee who can hold up against that and coldly(!) and calculatedly(!) stare it down and pick it to pieces on the fly, without going uuuuum and aaaaaah, and without trying to spin her way into poetry and pretty words. That candidate is Hillary Clinton.
Obama supporters need to grow up. This is what awaits them in the fall, and it is inexorable and gives no room for error. ONE CANDIDATE can withstand that without blinking, and it is NOT the one who can’t speak well without a script.
I can only agree with you.
Damn straight, the obamamaniacs main defense mechanism of closing their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears and going nananananananananaaaah Hillarys a lying bitch aren’t going to work against that.
Sorry, could you just sum up the video. The Other White Meat causes my GIRD to act up.
Rove quotes prominent Democrats caught repeating some of the WMD lies that were used to justify a “preemptive’ attack on Iraq. He asks rhetorically whether they were lying.
Since this clip is being presented as relevant to the general election why wouldn’t the blogger at least give a clue as to the lesson to be taken from it?
Doesn’t Fleaflicker have any answers?
It isn’t my place to tell you what you should learn from this. I realize that Obama Cultists are used to people telling them what to believe. But I believe in free will and individual determination. If you aren’t intelligent enough to learn on your own I am afraid that you are lost forever.
Listen, it really is amateur hour over here isn’t it. You posted a clip of Rove doing what Rove does, disseminate propaganda. Is your point simply that we should accept his case unchallenged and cower in fear? Do you think there’s a rebuttal that is more advantageous to Hillary Clinton that Barak Obama? You don’t say. You simply present Turd Blossom as a scare tactic. So what?
Do you believe Democrats should keep repeating lies about Iraq or do you think we should stand up and tell the truth?
Still don’t get it do you. This is how the ReThugs work. This is what they will try do whoever is the Dem nominee.
Now there are simple effective ways to counter this sort of sophomoric rhetoric from Rove or anyone else.
But if your guy can’t keep his foot out of his mouth such tactics won’t work. Obama is just another Kerry, considered ‘electable’ by the Dead Loser Caucus…maybe, but in fact without the tools to place the simplistic arguments the Rovian technique requires.
These tools consist of the facts as they are on the ground here and in occupied Iraq, not the ‘war’ as Barry’s calls it, that’s a ReThug frame, a comprehensive knowledge of American Political history and the willingness to take the fight to the Repubs on their numerous failures.
Barry the Ignorant is in possession of none of these tools. He could very well break McGovern’s record against Nixon.
WORM all you like.
It will not change the facts.
Barry is a loser at this game he doesn’t know how to play.
Now there are simple effective ways to counter this sort of sophomoric rhetoric from Rove or anyone else.
Let’s hear it genius, spell it out for us.
Listen, it really is amateur hour over here isn’t it.
I can’t tell what corner of the room your hiding in, but me counting to ten isn’t going to help you.
Let’s hear it genius, spell it out for us
As only a kite can, here goes.
The difference in propaganda between MSNBC (merry stupid nuts being caught) and Rove’s act is; one is being dirrected solely at Hillary Clinton and Rove, being a traitor he is , doesn’t give a shit what you think and never has.
I get a visual of Rove as a small piece of cracked eggshell, the kind that falls into your cake, given all the baking I have been doing as of late, I wonder if I should pay more attention to the greater metaphor.
What do you mean, “as only a kite can?”
Eggshells, when they fall into the batter, are no big deal, they sink to the bottom. After baking, you simply remove them.
I think we should PICK THE CANDIDATE MORE LIKELY TO SURVIVE A FULL-FRONTAL ASSAULT LIKE THIS. You damned naive child.
Oh, but no. It’s FAR more important to come out of it with our nose-in-the-air moral perfection intact. Who gives a crap if millions more will die, as long as we’re perfect and morally pure and lose on the high ground.
Your man will be turned into GROUND BEEF by this. PERIOD. Go ahead, walk into a minefield. Stick a shotgun in your mouth. But DON’T YOU DARE drag the entire planet into this gaping meatgrinder and then look gobsmacked and all boo-boo-eyed when your Hopey-Changey Pixie gets decapitated.
God DAMN it, I cannot TOLERATE this horseshit anymore. You people are dooming the planet with your STUPIDITY.
What makes Hillary Clinton that candidate? Are you saying that because she went along with the program of deception on Iraq she’s more qualified to clean up the mess? Explain how.
Because she has taken blast after blast after ten-gauge blast from that shotgun and others and is still standing, god damn it. USE YOUR FUCKING HEAD.
Actually, she started out with huge advantages, she’s now benefiting from a coordinated effort by former enemies like Limbaugh, Richard Scaife etc to keep her afloat and she’s in second place. A lot of this is due to her problem with Iraq, hardly an argument for her strength on that issue. This:
USE YOUR FUCKING HEAD.
is a particularly unconvincing technique.
“. . .she’s in second place. A lot of this is due to her problem with Iraq”: Oh nonsense. Her “problem with Iraq,” as you call it, is a problem only in the minds of that minuscule minority, loud and shrill out of proportion to its size, for whom Clinton’s vote on the “use of force” resolution has become a virtual single-issue campaign. Most people now agree that the war was wrong. Most people are also able to put that vote in context. Nobody cares that Barack Obama gave a little-noticed speech some years ago in his liberal state senate district at a time when he was NOT running for the U.S. Senate.
Really? Obama has failed to win a major Democratic primary state because of Iraq? Damn, I thought it was because he lacks support among any sigificant Democratic group outside of African Americans, and Republican votes are keeping him afloat. Who knew!
Can you ask Limbaugh and Scaife to step it up a bit, though? The DNC is prepared to disenfranchise as many states as it takes, so I don’t know what they can do to counter, but give them the message, we’ll see.
Oh, and while you’ve got them on the phone, can you ask if they have any good anti-Clinton talking points left over from the 90’s? I think Obama’s used them all, but he’ll be sad if he misses any.
Most people are also able to put that vote in context. -Palomino
In light of the Rove clip, her position was that she was for it for the same reasons Bush was. She now has to argue against herself in order to be against it. Despite your assurance, that’s a politically disadvantageous position, ask John Kerry.
Her “problem with Iraq,” as you call it, is a problem only in the minds of that minuscule minority, loud and shrill out of proportion to its size
I would also disagree with your characterization of Iraq as a small problem. For any candidate it remains a huge issue. It’s a disadvantage for McCain despite the efforts of Rove to nullify it by implicating Democrats. The general election is not going to be about school uniforms and the V chip and Hillary Clinton has an Iraq problem.
link?
I don’t think you should say “went along.” That kind of confuses the issue, which is that Hillary Clinton is solely responsible for the war. We can bring out Rockefellar and Kerry to make the point, screaming about how they TOLD her but she wouldn’t listen, and then we’ll cut to Obama saying that his position is no different than Bush’s, that he has no idea who he would have voted if he’d acually been there (I’m guessing Present), and publicly undercutting Kerry’s Amendment. Then we can bring him on to talk about policy, and he’ll gape like a deer stuck in the headlights as usual, but we’ll edit that out.
Ehemmmm…..(sigh) muppity..muppity…muppity….
It’s very simple…Most of what the GOP has to throw at Sen. Clinton is old hat ARKANSAS PROJECT that you have been gorging yourself on….Stuff won’t stick very well….Most folks are tired of it and the Working Class doesn’t buy the historical re-write of the Clinton/Gore admin. especially where the economy and the deficit reduction are concerned….Now go look up deficit….Try to use a real printed dictionary instead of wikipedia. The GOP didn’t considr OBAMESSIAH a real factor until later in this primary and he has proven to be such an easy target.
Rezko, Muslim/Christian,Un-American,etc…..This is why he’s getting the press he is…Classic set up.
Oh, well sweetie, so did Kerry and most of the people supporting your boy, so unless you are supplying the same standards evenly — which of course you are not — THERE WERE A HELL OF A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO put country (or so they thought) in front of their own anti war sentiments. Oh, right, but putting COUNTRY FIRST is something that Senator Obama would NEVER DO. Thanks for helping me finish my thoughts.
You speak for me, Janis, and better than ever I could (and I used to think I could write).
In order to answer your questions I have to make certain assumptions that I am not comfortable accepting. But since you insist I will answer your question.
First of all you must be completely stupid. Or maybe you just have a mental illness and need Hillary’s Universal Health Care more than you are willing to admit.
Secondly, the first point I make requires you to seek some help. And you really need some help! In the worst way.
So, you’ve got nothing.
Obama vs McCain–EXPERIENCE becomes a major issue. McCain has been a US senator for 21 years. US Rep before that, and 22 years in the US Navy. Obama’s only counter to this is McCain’s age. Pretty weak.
Obama will be raped on his lack of PATRIOTISM. Flag pin, photos of Obama not putting his hand over his heart, Rev. Wright’s Goddam Amerikkka VS McCain’s military service and 5 years as a POW.
McCain has established himself as a REAL UNITER, working across party lines on such thngs as finance reform. Obama loses that meme, since he has never really done anything to unite anybody on.
IRAQ- Obama made a single speech against the war to a small group, and then what? What peace rallys did he organize or even attend? What did he actually DO with his profound wisdom? Nothing. The issue will be “what next”. Obama loses because he will not commit himself to any real plan of action.
Is there really a need to go on? Obama will lose huge. The ammo Obama has provided that Clinton will not use, will be used with glee by the Republicans.
Clinton VS McCain–HEALTHCARE and the ECONOMY, both are hugely important to voters in both parties. Clinton tops McCain easily, she knows the terrain of these issues thoroughly. I believe she will attract a good many crossover voters based on these 2 issues.
FOREIGN POLICY–Clinton has the solid backing of many military leaders. Her experiences in Bosnia, Northern Ireland, and China show her experience. She knows the players and the issues. She can hold her own against anyone, including McCain in this field.
IRAQ–Clinton understands there is NO military solution, and has said so many times. Between the two, I believe voters will judge Clinton as being the candidate most likely to broker an arrangement that lets the US leave while not leaving Iraq to crumble into chaos.
CIVIL RIGHTS and the JUSTICE DEPT- Clinton will hammer the Republicans on
the Bush abuses.
Let Hillary take on McCain and you will not be disappointed. She is without a doubt the smartest candidate. In a debate, McCain is toast.
Nope, they got nothing….
Except calling you stupid and mentality ill and an obamabot, or obamatic, or whatever their simple minds can come up with to sling your way at that moment.
Classic.
Toddle along, little guy. We don’t do circle jerks here.
YOU have nothing, same old same old, if Obama loses, Rove will attack Clinton in the usual way.
Maybe America is ready for something fresh.
heh.
It will be a full scale media attack, on level with what we’ve seen from camp obamawattomie.
Same charges, same attempts at swift boating, bigger business investment, ala Chevron, say, and, what is the name of McCain’s campaign guy, Charlie something? And they will go after Bill big time.
They are convinced they are snakes, dangerous snakes, and my, if the trees should fall, look out.
Good thing is, nothing new here, at all.
Clinton, though, as compared to Obama, has a record of achievement, as does Bill.
Problem is, with the Obama dance, bending over for terrorists, it might pollute the whole democratic field. And Pelosi, and Reid, and Dean are so weak, the more Clinton can distance herself from them, the better.
Obama’s DNC is a liability to Clinton, that whole crew, from Feingold, to Leahy.
And Rove will go after the lunch bucket democrats, I would say terror as the biggest issue.
And Obama has hurt the democratic party, btw all will portrayed as terrorist supporting elitists.
Way to go, Dean.
Course, Karl and co shouldn’t be too smug.
Heh.
No, you’re the one holding on to nothing sugar lips … actually “sugar lips” is too kind of a description for him…
Flea,
Great points you make. Me - I am still reeling from the fact that these walking, talking Omazoids still take no responsibility for what they did to Geraldine Ferraro, a 72 years old woman - to wit:
1. Harrassment for repeating the same statement Bambi made in 2005
2. Malicious intereference with her business by contacting her employees and associates
3. Assault on innocent people with depraved indifference.
Then just a week or so ago, they shut down the city of Philadelphia because the MMayor made a decision to support Hillary -
AS you know I was involved and talked to two very verbally assaulted and abused employees on the phone - and secondly what they did to the city defintely was a terrorist act.
I feel these rabid animals are not members of the human race and deserve not even the good advice you are offering them. The best I am willing to give them is a sentence for their crimes in a maximum security psychiatric facilitiy.
Thank you for your wise comments Nellie.
Obama had no problem throwing his own grandmother under the bus so I am not surprised that he wouldn’t mind throwing a 72 old Ferraro under the bus too. He does seem to have a problem with women. Or maybe it is just with white women.
I agree also that the Obama Cult is akin to a terrorist organization. They have no other rules or morals than to win at any cost. And many of them are indeed psychopaths and need some serious psychiatric help.
In the spirit of internet confessions…..I am Barry’s typical white granny. Just wanted you folks to know I survived my brief and sudden entrapment between pavement and bus tire. Just a few scrapes and bruises. Nothin to worry about as Barry keeps me well medicated and those bed restraints are not too tight….Still don’t do interviews as it’s hard to remember my script. I think I’m still supposed to be scared of black men….But, well I’m not so sure, part of gettin old……Scenery is awfully nice out the window. God bless you all…and America too…
Don’t forget Tavis Smiley’s death threats. They are just a group of psycopathic looneys.
Obama and his supports have followed a campaign based on thuggery. I don’t want a THUG in the Whitehouse. This reminds me of techniques that union organizers have used in the past. Intimidate your opponents into aquiescence. Good people need to stand and counter these thugs.
I’ll tell you what you can learn from this. That Rove is also on job of re-writing history so that George Bush can ride off into the Texas sunset absolved of the mess he created while he plans his Presidential Library with comic books.
Also, the quotes from Clinton, Kerry, Kennedy, Gore remind us the most important fact that all of you Obamabot, so-called anti-war people have forgotten: the Climate in the country after 9/11 and even before, and this is why Bush was able to lie to everyone. People were shellshocked, fearful and ready to fight somebody and Sadaam Hussein seemed like the best choice.
This is why I never liked the whole apology train crap that was started in 2004 when everyone was trying to get the nomination. It was bullshit. And why I’m glad Hillary never apologized. We, the people, along with a complicit MSM who sold Bush’s war the way they are selling Obama, must share the burden of responsiblity in some measure.
Although Bush, Cheney and Rove deserve the lion’s share and should be arrested.
And yes Rove is smart. Disgusting like Tim Russert, who isn’t smart.
But “keep your friends close and your enemies closer.”
look in the mirror and there shall be your cult…
you´ve got some nerve
cults cling to the bitter end. so around may when Hillary asks you to drink the coolaid and join her with mcSame will you…I know just kidding even she´s not that crazy.
but when she brings her basketball back to the court to play with Dean and the others will you all follow?
honest question…
As far as I am concerned, there needs to be a New Democratic Party. Either the extreme left needs to leave the current Democratic Party, or the majority moderate/conservative Democrats need to support a new “NDP”. The progressives can then have their own little party where they can fight amongst themselves into political irrelevance.
HAHAHAHAHA.
It’s his pink eyes that get to me.
What I have been saying all along- Obama is toast when the Rove machine decides to go after him.
Is that true by the way about Obama voting against funding for the troops??? My son was over there twice!
Fri May 25, 2007
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton earned praise from anti-war activists but criticism from Republicans on Friday for voting against a measure to pay for the Iraq war that sets no timetables for withdrawing U.S. troops.
The two leading 2008 Democratic presidential contenders had been under heavy pressure from the party’s influential anti-war wing and from other Democratic candidates to oppose the emergency funding bill sought by President George W. Bush.
Unlike an earlier funding bill Bush vetoed on May 1, the measure passed comfortably on Thursday by the Senate and House of Representatives did not have deadlines for pulling out U.S. combat troops.
Obama and Clinton had refused to say how they would vote, but ultimately sided with opponents of the increasingly unpopular war. Liberal advocacy groups like MoveOn.org had warned Democrats who backed the measure of possible political consequences.
What? How can that be? Most Progressive Leading Light Even in History of World and Evil, Most Evil Who Has Ever Ever Lived, Hands Down Corportist Whore voting together? Somebody better tell the AP that their records may look incredibly similar, but couldn’t be more different, something about “genetalia,” “Original sin,’ ‘primordial evil,’ ‘medea.’
PLEASE … bring this discussion something current …. 11 month old news posts? How many times has Your Leader changed his mind on:
1. Guns
2. Abortion — “babies as punishment?” Really?
3. NAFTA
4. Human Rights
5. Disenfranchisment in Michigan and Florida
How is it that we are still disputing key and core issues in the Democratic platform? He’s undone DECADES of work!
No NASA? How JFK of him? HAHAHAHAHA
Rove is only a part of the machine. Do not be caught off guard. Their name is legion. They are many.
There name is mediocre.
Remember, this is the group whose strategy, without a cooperating press, failed miserably, outside the US, just FLAT ON ITS ASS.
So, how are they any different from Obama?
Right! An organization that turned a war hero (Max Cleland) into a terrorist is mediocre. You folks really don’t have a clue, do you?
LOL…Of course it’s hard to have a clue as to anything when smoking OFFICIAL U.S. GOVT. ISSUE CRACK……Pass the pipe.
It is exactly this kind of thing that makes Hillary’s vote for the authorization good for her in the GE and why Obama’s constant, “I was always against the war” thing really bad for him. Many people have forgotten, while under Obama’s spell, what was being said back then about Saddam and WMDs. Obama’s judgment argument is going to be shredded - he pretty much has to argue that in the face of Pentagon, CIA and Administration officials telling you Saddam is developing WMDs, that he would have been clairvoyant enough to know that upon giving the authorization for UN inspectors to go in, that Bush wouldn’t let them finish the job and preemptively strike and all hell would break loose- that bird is not gonna fly.
Hillary will be able to say, she did have the judgment at the time, and believed the inspectors should have gone in, but now it is obvious that there is no military solution (which she warned of during her floor speech). Contrary to Obamaton belief, Hillary will be better against McCain on this issue.
You are so right. What American didn’t believe Gen. Colin Powell? He looked us all in the eye and made his case and we believed him. No one even imagined that he had been given bad information. I’d love to hear Obama say that he was the only one who didn’t believe him! He would never criticize him.
The problem was his son had that fancy heading up the the FDA right after he lied. To this day, I see guilt on Powell’s face. He regrets much and he deserves to.
I know when I am being lied to.
I watched that presentation of Powell’s’ at the UN and while watching it all I could think about was, Why on Earth would man of his position sacrifice his standing and reputation like that.
He regrets much and he deserves to. and he has said so. The sad part is I would have voted with him on a ticket prior to that.
You are so right….Remember the looks on the faces of most of the European ambassadors faces? France,Germany,Russia…The only thing I got out of that was inspiration for a good series of political art which was the only way I could deal with my astonishment and fear…..Worked on it as I listened to the coverage on BBC.
well i was thinking…who in the hell´s dumb enough to believe that someone would actually try to mix chemicals together in a mobile lab bumping acrss a desert full of dust and dirt.
Don’t you mean the FCC? I thought that Powell’s son headed up the FCC.
As to the timing, what many forget is that the Iraq resolution came before the 2002 midterm election. John Kerry, Tom Daschle, and others wrote editorials, made floor speeches, and did everything conceivable to put enough constraints on the resolution so that Bush would be forced to pursue a multilateral solution FIRST. Of course, it was a “leap of faith” to believe anything from George W. Bush, but in the wake of 9/11, lawmakers really wanted to work with Bush to find a reasonable solution to Iraq. Also, in 2002, I think that most members of Congress were still operating under the delusion that Bush and Cheney would NEVER embark on another war without a good reason–not when we were already committed to Afghanistan–i.e., that regardless of partisan differences, Bush and Cheney were still interested in doing the “right thing” for our country. And if you will recall, the Democrats still managed to take a thumpin’ in 2002, and those defeats were achieved largely by painting the Democrats as cowards and defeatists.
Hindsight is certainly 20-20, and while it may make the anti-war crowd “feel good” to have opposed invading Iraq, the truth of the matter is that the current quagmire is actually the result of a commity of errors. The invasion, in many ways, waa probably the LEAST of those errors. Some of the other bungling included a failure to provide adequate troops for peacekeeping, a failure to control looting at the outset, completely disbanding the Iraqi army along with complete de-Baathification, which only increased the number of able-bodied young Iraqi men with nothing better to do than blow things up, a failure to engage Arab and Persian neighbors in peacekeeping, a failure to engage the rest of the international community in peacekeeping and rebuilding of Iraq, and a complete failure to restore infrastructure in a timely manner. This latter failure is particularly noteworthy since I clearly recall comments made by Joe Biden in the summer of 2003 about the need to restore services in a timely fashion in Iraq. At the time, Biden spoke of a “window of opportunity” of no more than 3-to-6 months for getting utilities restored in order to maintain the support of the Iraqi people. When services were not restored (and in fact, got worse for many Iraqis), it should have been no surprise when Iraqi sentiment turned against the U.S. occupation.
Personally, I opposed the war from the beginning. I similarly opposed Bill Clinton’s call for regime change in Iraq back in 1998. It seemed to me that the removal of Saddam Hussein would result in a power vacuum in the region, which would, in turn, destabilize the entire region. Although the operation in Iraq has not gone well, I would argue that my own fears were probably overblown. The real problem was a totally incompetent execution of the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Almost at every step where a correct decision by Bush could have brought about a positive solution, the Bushistas made the WRONG choice! If Paul Bremer had not insisted on disbanding the Iraqi army and universal de-Baathification, we might have had trained Iraqi peacekeepers in place a long time ago. If Bush had not rejected offers from countries who had previously opposed our invasion of Iraq to provide assistance in training and rebuilding that flowed in following his “Top Gun” routine, we might have more of the infrastucture rebuilt by this point. If Bush had not insisted on not talking with Iraq’s neighbors, we might have engaged Iraq’s Arab and Persian neighbors in peacekeeping–after all, they have an even bigger stake in stabilizing Iraq than we do. If more time and effort had been spent on understanding the tribal conflicts of Iraq rather than hiring private contractors to torture prisoners for information, we would not still be trying to defend ourselves to the rest of the world for Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, and the various “black sites” around the world.
In short, opposing the invasion back in 2002 may seem clairvoyant at this point in time, but when one considers all the mistakes made by Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld, it was a bit of luck that one can now look back and say, “I opposed this war from the beginning” and sound like Nostradamus. After all, some of the SAME politicians who voted against the Iraq resolution in 2002 are the SAME politicians who voted against the resolution to oust Saddam from Kuwait in 1991. I think that most people would agree that conventional wisdom is on the side of those pols that supported intervention back in 1991 with that conventional wisdom having more to do with COMPETENT execution of the operation than any great “moral authority”.
Terrorist wars are so easy to execute, in terms of finance, and plot, just ask Mike the plumber.
If Russia, say, wanted to game the US through Iraq, all it would have to do is facilitate arms sales, et al, and with the private security firms, well, it’s not too much to blackmail, or bribe, someone who might be key.
Just a fact, without an official military hierarchy, there is no leadership, no loyalty, no real consequence for disloyalty.
The war was a stupid idea, dumb republicans playing cowboy, not smart enough to understand the physics of the situation, conned into attempting something they could never conquer.
You need smart people, not fourth tier business people, and the simple minded ops they hire.
BTW, for the simple minded shitheads who think corruption is cool: It’s OK when your guy takes a little money from the US treasury, but what happens when your guy takes money from the Saudis, or the CIA, on the side, to sabotage Cheney, and Rove’s war effort?
Is it then OK, when it benefits your enemy, say, because they can use it to sabotage Cheney?
Not quite, huh?
Corrupt people are so romantic.
Shithead.
Yes, FCC, you are righteously correct.
“. The invasion, in many ways, waa probably the LEAST of those errors.”
Say WHAT?! So, committing the greatest war crime of all - an act of pure, unjustified aggression is OK as long as you do it “right”?
Listen and try to understand that there absolutely no “right” way to do something that is fundamentally wrong. The bottom line that must be kept at the forefront at all times is that the United States had no reason and no right to attack or occupy Iraq, has no right or reason to be there now, and needs to get out soon, quickly, and completely. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis understand that this is the only hope for Iraq.
And I am not singling you out here, but I am really tired of hearing people talk about what kind of “solution” was needed in 2002 to the “Iraq problem”. What we had then - just as what we have now regarding Iran - was a crisis manufactured out of whole cloth in order to justify what the administration had decided long ago to do. There was no solution needed because there was no problem. Saddam was contained, on his way out, and the Iraqi people and the country of Iraq was a million times better off with that despot than they are now or will be at any time in the foreseeable future. Ask any Iraqi you like - except, of course for the 15-20% who are benefiting by their collaboration. The rest will tell you very clearly.
First, Saddam Hussein was a barbaric, murdering thug that NEEDED to be overthrown. It would have been far better for the Iraqi people to do it themselves, but given the nature of Saddam’s rule, that was not likely to occur without some assistance from outside Iraq.
Second, and perhaps, more importantly, the ends would have justified the means if Saddam could have been deposed with a minimum of bloodshed, with stability restored in reasonably short order, and with a minimum of destruction of the infrastructure of the country. Regardless of how you may feel about Iraq now, there is little doubt that public opinion would be completely different if we had been able to rebuild the infrastructure within a matter of months, prop up a reasonably stable government with a minimum of internal violence, and then withdraw troops with only a small contingency left to guard the embassy. All these cries about “war crimes” would have fallen on deaf ears if the EXECUTION of the war had occurred with the degree of efficiency and competence that I have just outlined.
Frankly, it amazes me to see ANYONE unhappy that Saddam Hussein was deposed. The guy was pure evil, and if you do not know that, then you obviously have a VERY limited source of information on Iraq.
As I earlier pointed out, I opposed the regime-change resolution back in 1998 since I feared that a power vacuum would ensue that would destabilize the region. At the time, I had a colleague who was an Iraqi-American. When I commented to her that I objected to this call for regime change, she proceeded to let me know just how BAD Saddam Hussein was! Believe me when I say that I got an earful! Do you honestly believe that we should have continued to stick our heads in the sand while Saddam was torturing and slaughtering his own people? Perhaps–certainly an argument can be made for that sort of isolationism (and actually, Bush misled voters into believing that he was an isolationist type of guy in 2000). But an equally valid argument can be made that a competently executed invasion, occupation, and stabilization of Iraq might have been feasible with competence from the top. It certainly would have been desirable to the vast majority of voters.
exactly. hillary is able to take, and explain, difficult positions. she understands not just the issues but also how things really work and what can and can’t be done, how it’s done, etc.
obama just repeats that he had good judgment because he was against the war…. that kind of crap may work in primaries, where it’s mostly dems, but repubs will - correctly - point out that his bs speech 6 years ago has nothing to do with how we handle the mess now. and his conflicting statements on what he would do just make it obvious that he’ll say whatever he thinks his audience wants to hear on that particular day in that particular place, but doesn’t really have a clear idea of what to do.
and we’ve all seen what happens to obama when he goes off script, whether it’s about iraq or something else, big trouble. when it’s a real debate, against repubs, he won’t have the tim russerts of the world pitching him softballs and trying to destroy his opponent the way he has had so far.
“Obama’s judgment argument is going to be shredded - he pretty much has to argue that in the face of Pentagon, CIA and Administration officials telling you Saddam is developing WMDs, that he would have been clairvoyant enough to know that upon giving the authorization for UN inspectors to go in, that Bush wouldn’t let them finish the job and preemptively strike and all hell would break loose- that bird is not gonna fly.”
Clairvoyant…. I love that.
And now we finally know from whence that infamous ‘fairytale’ quote of Bill Clinton’s really came from.
Are you listening black people?????
Nah!
I have no problem with this video being posted here. It’s as a lot of us have been saying since the get go…Sen. Obama is FAR from vetted…the 527 ads are wrighting (writing) themselves as we speak!! One can only hope the superdelegates keep an open mind and understand that Obama is UNELECTABLE!! It’s Hillary in ‘08!!
Bwha!
I raise you one cplummer, and change it to aplummer.
Amanda Plummer, strange, yet weird, and wonderful.
It’s going to be depressing when McCain points out that Obama anti-war speech was for an anti-war crowd - Just like his comments on bitter Americans clinging to religion and guns was said in front of an elite liberal crowd.
McCain talking points will be simple.
Obama will say anything to suit to the crowd.
As I have been saying - Obama does what is politically expedient, not what is right. He appears to have always been that way.
“As I have been saying - Obama does what is politically expedient, not what is right. He appears to have always been that way.”
His eyes have only and always been on the prize.
The reality of the matter is that the United States needs some one who has some form of Diplomatic capability to get us out of this mess created by the likes of Rove, the neocons and the blank check corrupt Republicans like Delay.
George Bush did not have a clue about what the neocons were getting him into. Obama is of the same ilk. Fast talker, no substance. No expereince to show that he has any capability in International Diplomacy. He has a glib mouth, good at reading speaches, but falls down in instances which require some original thought. Just like George Bush.
I just do not think people will vote party for the sake of party this time.
I knew exactly that Powell was a lying heap of shit at the UN.
Could you not see because he was black?
A lot of folks apparently could not.
That’s what ID politics is all about, something that Kos, Bowers, and Marshall still don’t understand.
Me?
I knew he was scumbag liar from his history with My Lai.
That’s were the abysmal ignorance many citizens are mired in comes into play. They have NO IDEA who the people they see on their TeeBee screens really are.
Small wonder they vote for lying scumbag like Barry the Ignorant.
This is why Larry’s work here is so important.
By the way Larry folks in the threads are just discovering you. And they are really excited about your bringing this truer picture of Barry to the ’spherer.
And I hope Larry can continue to expose the truth about the whole dirty mess, in Washington, both Republican and Democratic.
It’s about a better America, period.
Someone said to me, and I hold these words dear, “Who do you sell yourself out to?”
And you don’t sell yourself out to anyone.
Colin Powell lied to the whole world and used the excuse that he was being a good soldier to justify it. And to this day people talk about how much integrity he has. The fact that he was willing to lie about something he knew was false sort of destroys any credibility or integrity he has. The deaths of those American soldiers are on his bloody hands too. It’s no wonder he is hearting Obama. They have the same scruples.
People held him in high esteem. There was a time when he could have run for President and he would have won handily, with votes from Democrats and Republicans alike. He was trusted. His word was his Bond to Americans. And he squandered it.
He was a lying heap of shit about My Lai, too, but it wasn’t on TV, so nobody noticed.
Rove’s words are extraordinarily disengenious. He is twisting facts to manipulate the public. They’ve been doing this for over eight years and it’s second nature to these people.
Saddam Hussein was building nuclear weapons in the first gulf war. What was unclear was whether he still had those weapons five years ago. WMD’s was a pretext that the Bush Crime family used to invade that country and destroy Saddam Hussein. We didn’t need to invade. The sanctions were working fine at that point.
Bush and Co. used 9/11 as a pretext to attack Iraq. Iraq was not involved with terrorist activities as Rove says in this video. In point of fact, Hussein would not allow them in his country. So Rove is telling a bald faced lie about that.
The fact is that politicians took this lying Bush administration at it’s word and made supporting statements. Their stupdity lay in beliving a word from this group of serial liars. This should not be used against them. But that’s exactly what Rove is doing in this vidio. The man is a slime ball impersonating a human being.
But the larger issue is that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The highjackers came from Saudi Arabia and Al Quaida (sp?) had it’s base in Afghanistan. That should have been the target that we focused on to root out the terrorists. Instead they took their eye off the ball and went after Iraq.
Afghanistan was a just war. Iraq was not only an unjust war but got us into this quagmire that we can’t get out of. And Rove must think that we are a bunch of the stupidist idiots in the world to keep pushing this damn propoganda off on us. The man has no sense of shame.
Read Richard Clark’s book. He was there and he knows what happened.
so rove’s spinning tales - what else is new? the point is that rove is good at spinning tales. the rest of the repub’s 527 types are, too. obama isn’t smart enough or knowledgeable enough to deal with it, except when he has a script. sometimes he’ll have to talk without one. sometimes he’ll be asked about something before his handlers have told him the answer. then he’ll be toast. that’s the point.
Don’t underestimate Obama. He is not stupid. If he was, he wouldn’t have gotten as far as he has.
I support Hillary because I think that she has the experience required for the job and the better platform. And as an added side bonus she’s a woman.
He is not stupid.
oops, You made a funny. (Just kidding)
It is the folks around him as well.
jes,
Obama is worse than stupid - he is hands down the most completely ignorant educated person I have ever heard of!
Obama falsely claims he learned “Indonesian” in six months. That is like saying Americans speak “American”, and Canadians speak “Canadian”.
There are no such languages.
The country of Indonesia is comprised of a series of islands. Here is a map.
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/id.htm
Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia is located on the Island of Java. Its language is the official language of Indonesia. The “native tongue” of some of the other islands is different, but they all learn and use the “Official Language” for reading and writing.
Someone needs to ask Obama the following questions:
What is the official Language of Indonesia?
What is the official Language of Pakistan?
When do Israelis use Hebrew and Yiddish?
What is the official Language of the Azores?
What is the official Language of Brazil?
What is the official Language of Iran?
What is the Official Language of the Cape Verde Islands?
What is the official Language of India?
What is the official Language of Kurdistan?
If he cannot answer these extremely basic questions, he is totally unqualified to be on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, or any of its Sub-Committees. Lack of this very basic knowledge renders him completely unqualified to President of the United States. No wonder his view of Foreign Affairs is so distorted, when he cannot even understand what basic language a country uses.
Reminds me of when Dan Quayle visited Latin America and told them he took Latin in Law School.
LOL….Needed that …Howl….
Uppity,
Thanks for the laugh. I was forced to take 4 years of Latin in HS. When I graduated from there I naively believed that I had left it behind forever.
Ahh the follies and ideas of youth.
Well, he simply appeals to the very basic fear, very simplistic really.
He grabs the Maslow triangle, inverts and exploits it.
Security?
We all FEAR, the politics of FEAR.
Who will protect us, when Karl is inserting terrorism into the dialogue?
Well, better the devil you know, than the one you don’t, even if his head is so far up his ass he lost three, count them, three wars.
Karl is on our side…heh.
So people, in a panic, gravitate to the one who think think will protect them, the basic “well, he’ll punch, and hit and kick, a real Texas cowboy” as opposed to the one who says, ” you know, we have to think, and not be led by our balls, because it gets us into bigger trouble, and we lose. Let’s use our brains, rather than our fists.” Karl’s methods appeal to the Dick Cheney coward in all of us.
And here we are discussing this, as if it has no real life consequences, and we have lost THREE wars under the Republicans, and Rove.
The thing that Obama-bots seem to forget is that anti-war rhetoric is not a plan. Having given an anti-war speech before we invaded is not a plan either. While I disagree with the assertions of some on the right that Obama will be another McGovern, Obama is certainly vulnerable on foreign policy for some of the reasons that Rove describes.
Perhaps the thing that worries me the most about what will happen to Obama in the GE is Obama’s overall poor performance in the primary debates. It seems to me that Obama can deliver a prepared speech fairly well, but when left to his own devices, he has problems. This is something that Rove has also noted in previous speeches.
Surely since OBAMESSIAH has The venerable Kerry and Kennedy advising on his campaign he’s certain to win in the general….Don’t you think?
Obama has begun officially backing off of his inappropriate and offensive remarks:
http://www.villarrealsports.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=364
Though he is trying to retreat lightly, make no mistake — he and his camp are now beginning to realize the enormity these words have had and are going to have, and it’s time for damage control.
Unlike his flippant statements in Indiana last night amidst gleeful supporters, Team Obama just came to the reality that the electorate is not one mass Obama rally.
We must not nominate this man, or else people like Karl Rove will destroy him and through him, our Democratic Party. The ease with which Rove fricassees Obama on his Iraq statements in this video is a mere precursor to what awaits Barack McGovern.
Great post, Fleaflicker.
And through him, our country, and the world given the precarious nature of the climate AND the economy. These damned stupid, naive emotional and intellectual infants are dooming millions. I am beyond incensed.
Me, too Janis.
FleaFlicker,
I’m GLAD that you posted the video, but Rove was not completely right.
He left out a big issue: that the Bush Administration manipulated the intelligence; thus, after 2001, Sens. Kerry and Clinton made statements that they likely didn’t know were false.
The Bush Administration likely did know that their own statements were false, because they were the ones manipulating the intelligence.
Still, your overarching point is dead-on: Rove et. al. will selectively omit truth when trying to get McCain elected.
This is true. I think that those who voted to authorize bush had no reason NOT to believe their own CIA. Nobody could know that Cheney was fixing the information. I also believe that hindsight with someone else’s vote is very easy. Barack Obama was NOT there for these briefings. Had he been there, you can bet he would have been voting Yes too. To say any less is absurd. The armchair Coulda-Shoulda attitude is a dog that won’t hunt.
I remember seeing a link and I wish I had it. It was after the fact, when the suspicions about how the intelligence had been rigged began. It was an account of Powell saying, “I am not reading this shit”. Somewhere between I am Not Reading This Shit and the UN briefing, somebody got to Powell in a big way. But the truth is, the CIA intelligence was deliberately fudged and the congress had no way of knowing this–nor did they have any reason to doubt it.
If no one could know then how did I know? How did so many people without access to the so-called intelligence figure out that it was a huge mistake before congress? One swift read of the PNAC agenda should have been enough to make them highly skeptical about this group wanting to attack Iraq when we were hit by Al Qaeda.
They knew it was B.S. They were freaked out about the poll numbers and were afraid to speak up and voted accordingly. This is part of the reason why I did not vote for Hillary. She was given the ultimate test - when faced with crisis will you do what it right for America, or will you do what you perceive to be right for your own career. She chose the polls and her career. I would rather take a somewhat unknown factor who was right on this issue than someone who failed to make the right decision in a time of crisis.
P.S. Rove? Really?
Well, that’s just foolish and wide-eyed naivete. We tried the unknown quantity before (Hello, Bushie!) and we got two rigged elections and a really awesome war that we’ll be telling our grandkids all about.
Whatever. Being “right” (well, politically expediant) about the war in the first place doesn’t end the war doesn’t actualy, you know, put an end to said war. That’s a real lack of common sense talking. He’s put forth no plan other than “what Hillary said.”
“Me, too” is not a platform. It’s certainly not one that’ll get him elected.
Ha, if you think ignoring Rove now is smart politics, you haven’t been at this long. The Republicans are always vicious; we’re just at it to see how vicious this time around.
Hmm, ask an Edwards supporter and they will say that Hillary’s plans on many issues are “what Edwards said.” Maybe as Democrats they all have similar ideas.
Perhaps Bush was an unknown quantity to you, but he wasn’t to me. I looked at his record in Texas and the cast of characters he gathered around himself and figured I couldn’t trust him a bit. As a “normal” person it really bugs me that the Democratic elites with “experience” couldn’t get it together enough to figure out that anyone being guided by Cheney, Wolfowitz, Negroponte, Rumsfeld, Rove and others couldn’t be trusted. In fact, it smacks of foolish wide-eyed naivete. Bill Clinton was an unknown quantity. I remember people complaining that some young small state Democratic governor couldn’t possibly make a good President with so little experience. Well they were half right, even so I say he was the best Republican president we’ve had in a long time!
I’m not for ignoring Rove, I just don’t like the way in which so many people on this site seem eager to help the Republicans. We don’t need to copy their attacks or give them a bigger voice.
Bill Clinton had ten years of executive experience in Arkansas, and he also served at Lt. Gov. of that state. Obama, on the other hand, was a part-time state Senator who only passed legislation handed to him by his political patron Emil Jones during the last year of his second term in the Illinois state Senate. And no, criticizing Obama is not tantamount to aiding and abetting the GOP. That is a notion propounded by the Obama campaign, and it has no place on this site.
Like it or lump it he has ten years of experience as an elected official. I also give credit to other forms of public service. Civil rights law, teaching constitutional law, and community activism are all great experiences for a president in my book. If other forms of public service were irrelevant to you it would be impossible to vote for Hillary as she has fewer years of her own experience as an elected official.
In case you didn’t catch it I was being a bit sarcastic in talking about Clinton. I disagreed with the assessment that he was unqualified to be President, but it is an argument that was used against him. That’s why I find it a bit ironic that Sen. Clinton is using the same argument against Obama.
There’s nothing wrong with criticizing Obama about - policy positions, votes, and the like. I DO take issue with some people who are so angry that they are willing to say all kinds of horrible things about him being a pig, or a misogynist, an empty suit, a piece of crap, or an elitist. When Democrats take the Republican talking points and run with them I am disgusted. People on this site are actually advocating that Democrats donate to John McCain for crying out loud. That is absolutely aiding and abetting the GOP. A direct quote from Rove in that context is what makes me want to throw up my hands and shout:
“UUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!”
I’m with you…
Well said…
Yikes,
Please explain how a 20% attendance record in the Illinois Senate, expands to :
He had a TITLE for ten years - that does NOT EQUATE to experience. Anymore that the TITLE Professor or President Emeritus denote experience rather than just the simple “honorific” it is.
Oh save it!
People on anti-Hillary sites have said as much and are way worse! And they’ve had the full support of the MSM in this regard.
Resume-wise, Obama is a lightweight. Nothing in his background is in depth compared to the others. He has been packaged to appear as if he has more density, more chops than he actually does. Don’t be angry at those of us who have eyes and the intelligence to know the difference.
His whole candidacy has been about “following the yellow brick road.” And we all know where that ended. A carefully constructed persona that was all smoke and mirrors hidden behind a flimsy curtain.
So “UUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!” BACK AT YOU!
Ask Little Lord Obama how he started out gaining that “10 years experience”…
He plays dirty. His behavior is unethical. Ask Alice Palmer.
That’s ALL I need to know.
present
Don’t buy it. HRC has been working on the plan since it didn’t pass in in the 90’s. False argument.
oh, please.
Well, that would indicate conspiracy, and well, that’s kookoo, men like Rove, and Cheney, and Rumsfeld don’t sit around, get drunk, and plan to take the country to war, illegally.
Right?
And it’s too scary to admit they’d betray the American people in this manner, so no one looks at it, no one wants to think about it, a member of the family betraying the rest in such a stupid manner.
But now they’ve gotten themselves into something they, and their ops, can’t get out of, because modern day warfare is a little more complex than Hitler with his little propganda blueprint, imagined.
When we attacked Afghanistan, I recall the usual suspects questioning that operation. Also, I am not sure that a vote for the Iraq resolution was exactly the resounding declaration of war that you Obama-bots seem to believe that it was. There was a fair amount of debate at the time, including op-eds and floor speeches by various people who warned about the prospect of a long, protracted war, yet went on to vote FOR the Iraq resolution–senators like Tom Dashcle, Chuck Hagel, and John Kerry.
In 1998, there was a similar Iraq resolution calling for regime change in Iraq. Bill Clinton certainly had plenty of encouragement from the neo-cons to intervene in Iraq back then–he even had this resolution that he could have used as justification for invading Iraq. But instead of invading and occupying Iraq, Clinton initiated Desert Fox which provided the Kurds a degree of protection from Saddam’s aggression. At the same time, Clinton carefully avoided invading Iraq.
I know that it is “fashionable” among the Obama-bots to constantly repeat this mantra about Obama having the “judgment” back in 2002 to oppose the war–a pretty easy shot to take when Obama was not in a position to put his views on the line by voting for or against the resolution. Just keep in mind that “judgment” cuts BOTH ways. Obama voted FOR Cheney’s “big-oil, lobbyist-driven” energy bill, voted AGAINST putting a cap of 30% on interest rates for credit cards, and didn’t even bother to show up for the vote declaring Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard a foreign terrorist force for its operations in Iraq–a vote, that I might add, Obama bashed Clinton for voting for. At least, Clinton took a stand, which is more than I can say for the not-ready-for-prime-time senator from Illinois.
Beep Obop beep Oba beep Obeep beep Bama! …..
Oh, Sorry! I forgot that you don’t speak Obamabot. I’ll translate for you from our Elitist-to-English dictionary.
I’m not one of those people who sees no wrong in their candidate. The Energy Bill vote seriously pissed me off. He is not forgiven for that one, but I “hope” that now that he is relying on the grassroots we’ll rip him a new one if he tries to pull anything like that as president. As your local Obamabot I will gladly lead the charge with my saber sharpened.
There’s a reason why I didn’t vote for Kerry in the primary even though the nomination was pretty much decided by the time I got to vote. He’s just as much to blame as any other Democrat that voted for that war. My problem with the Democrats is that they (including Obama and Hillary) are big on speeches and short on action. I’m sick of hearings in which they ask tough questions of Republican liars and crooks, I want some stinking consequences for the crimes they’ve been committing with my money.
As for Afghanistan, some people like the Quakers are anti-war no matter what. I’m not. Afghanistan makes sense, Iraq does not.
Dear Yikes,
you’re so hot right now! Thanks for the sanity!
d.
I agree with you about the Democrats wimping out when confronting the crap that the GOP has pulled. I, too, was frustrated to see John Kerry vote for the Iraq war resolution, and I certainly KNEW at the time of the vote that it was a totally cynical vote on Kerry’s part. After all, if John Kerry had voted against that resolution, would he have become a serious contender for president in 2004? I doubt it! Having said that, I am far more upset about the trend that began after WWII for Congress to completely abrograte its responsibility for declaring war. The Korean War was never declared, neither was the Vietnam War, and heaven knows, our military actions in Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. were certainly not the results of any declarations of war.
As I have stated several times in other places, I originally supported John Edwards and was actually fairly ambivalent about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. HOWEVER, after watching many of the debates and reading the candidates’ various proposals, I settled upon Clinton as my second choice–not the choice that I “thought” I would be making either since I was not particularly enamored with Bill Clinton–too conservative for my tastes.
If there is one thing that initially really put me off from Obama, it was his refusal to include mandates in his health care proposal combined with his campaigning from the right to attack Clinton’s health care proposal! BOTH Clinton and Obama have done things to piss me off–Clinton’s snide comment about Obama’s foreign policy experience amounting to a speech compared with the lifetimes that she and McBush have spent and Obama’s attacks of Clinton’s health care proposal from the right. Then the other silly stuff started coming into the campaign. The Obama campaign accused Hillary Clinton of racism for pointing out the role that LBJ played in civil rights–a very unjust criticism, IMHO. HOWEVER, I was offended by Bill Clinton’s comparison of Obama’s victory in South Carolina to the victory by Jesse Jackson. Bill Clinton would have been better off by commending Obama for his victory and moved on. The real “tipping point” for me came when the Obama campaign attacked Gerry Ferraro as a racist–that was just OVER THE TOP! And to add insult to injury, Obama had the NERVE to equate the hateful, racist rants of his minister to a single innocuous comment that Ferraro made as part of a much larger speech. No matter how you cut it, Reverend Wright is a problem, and it does NOT help for Obama to try and excuse it by making unfair comparisons to someone like Gerry Ferraro! I was doubly incensed when David Axelrod had the NERVE to call for Hillary Clinton to drop out on the SAME DAY that Obama was doing his mea culpa over his 20+ year association with Reverend Wright!
For the most part, I’ve had less problem with Barack Obama than the people around him, but this latest bit from Obama only reinforces my general dissatisfaction with the man. Now, I am not like others here–there is NO WAY IN HELL that I am voting for McBush, but I must admit that the Obama campaign is making it increasingly difficult for me to support his candidacy if he becomes the Democratic nominee for president. Whether it’s a dig like Obama’s assertion that he will get ALL of Hillary’s votes but she will not get all of his votes or snide, condescending comments about the characteristics of voters supporting Hillary, it all has the effect of driving THIS Democrat away from voting for Obama in November if he does become the nominee. I will not vote for McBush, but assuming the Obama wins the nomination (which is becoming more doubtful with these gaffes), if Obama doesn’t do a good bit of mending bridges, he will NOT get my vote either!
“HOWEVER, I was offended by Bill Clinton’s comparison of Obama’s victory in South Carolina to the victory by Jesse Jackson.”
You were offended because like too many whites you look down on Jackson and see him in a demeaning way. You forget that his Rainbow Coalition registered some 7 million voters and attracted multi-ethnic support including working class whites who were tired of Reagan’s ‘trickle down economics.’
In retrospect, Obama’s campaign played that race card very deftly at a time when Obama was transcending race. But then along came Wright to knock that illusion out of the ball park.
Nothing Bill Clinton said did squat to hurt Obama’s momentum at the time and actually increased it and hurt Hillary.
So why be offended when it was Obama’s 20-year relationship with Wright that did the real damage?
Actually, I remember Jesse Jackson’s Rainbow Coalition quite vividly, and I actually LIKED Jackson for what he did with that organization as well as his speeches on the stump when he was running for president. But Jackson did not have a realistic change of becoming the Democratic nomination for president back then anymore than Pat Robertson, Al Sharpton, Ron Paul, or any other candidate on the margin has a shot at becoming the presidential nomination for a major party.
At the time that Bill Clinton made his comparison to Jesse Jackson, I felt like Clinton was taking a jab at the fact that Obama was a black candidate for president. Up until that point, Obama had run as a candidate for president who happened to be black–at least, he started out his campaign that way. Frankly, I think that Bill Clinton would have been better off congratulating Obama on his victory and then saying that this was only one primary out of many. Clinton could have pointed out that South Carolina was the ONLY state that John Edwards won in 2004, but then, he would have taken a chance on offending Edwards. Bill Clinton needs to re-learn that it doesn’t pay to be snarky.
I’m glad you remember Jesse’s Rainbow Coalition.
But at the time, the people who were involved in it, believed that Jesse did have a chance and that’s why we joined his coalition. It’s demeaning and just as offensive to hear that because white people believe Obama is a legitimate candidate any comparison to Jackson marginalizes him as a black candidate. It’s all the more ludicrous because of the way Obama has presented himself to the black communnity as one of our very own, when in fact he’s not.
So let me get this straight: he’s AA to blacks, but to whites he’s what?
Sorry, but without Jackson’s very vigourous run Obama would be braving new territory.
Again, I ask you to pay attention to the part where I am saying that this is demeaning to what Jackson did indeed accomplish at the time. And again, Bill’s statement actually increased his momentum. Wright derailed it.
You’re probably right that Obama’s run for president might not have been possible without the trailblazing efforts of Shirley Chisholm and Jesse Jackson. As to my earlier comment, I’ve actually heard arguments made from BOTH sides abour Clinton’s reference to Jesse Jackson’s presidential runs in 1984 and 1988. Nevertheless, I still contend that it was a dumb thing for Clinton to say. At best, Clinton was pointing out that Obama’s South Carolina victory was like that of Jesse Jackson’s earlier victories in the state in that it would easily be eclipsed later, and at worst, the reference was a way of marginalizing Obama’s candidacy as just another black running for president who will ultimately lose the nomination.
I’ve listened to people defend Clinton’s comparison to Jesse Jackson and others bash Clinton’s comparison, and my point, which seems to escape you, is that it was a ham-fisted, stupid thing to say. My original comment has NOTHING to do with what Jesse Jackson was or was not able to accomplish as much as an observation about Clinton saying something stupid when a more appropriate response would be to congratulate Obama and point out that South Carolina was only one of many primaries/caucuses in the process.
Clearly, Obama initially tried to promote himself as a candidate for president who happened to be black instead of a black candidate for president, which is WHY Obama was intially seen as a racially transformational candidate. And yes, Bill Clinton’s remark actually hurt Hillary and helped Obama, which is WHY I said that it was a stupid thing for Clinton to say!
I suppose that I can understand how Jackson supporters might be insulted by the reaction of the Obama campaign to Clinton’s comparison, but again, this was not my point. My ONLY point was that it was a damn stupid thing for Bill Clinton to say–especially since congratulating Obama on his victory and pointing out that it was only one of many primaries/caucuses in the process would have been a BETTER response where Clinton would not have risked offending ANYONE. Again, the lesson that Clinton seems to have forgotten is that it does not pay to be snarky.
Yes, you are.
And nothing you say is credible.
But continue to believe your trolling successfully, I’m sure someone will meet your expectations, lying to you.
you’re, sorry.
Darlin’ insults don’t mean much to me, so I suggest you save your breath..err fingers.
I have said that I disagree with Obama’s vote on the Energy Bill, his vote on the Patriot Act, and his use of the Harry and Louise ads. He is not my perfect candidate, but in MY opinion he’s the best we’ve got.
“She was given the ultimate test - when faced with crisis will you do what it right for America, or will you do what you perceive to be right for your own career. She chose the polls and her career.”
Sorry, but you can’t fly that plane and aim it a Senator from New York State, where the terrible deed happened on Sept 11, 2001. It was a very big deal for the country. Magnify that a million times over and you have the sentiments of New Yorkers in 2002, especially those in NYC whose lives were interrupted by Subway and Path Train detours, ferry boat rides, the air we breathed in the months after 9/11, the constant fake bomb threats on subways, tunnels and bridges, and the permanent reminder to our skyline of the tragic loss of life as HOARDES of tourists came to gape at what was once the World Trade Center.
Had she been a senator from Arkansas your premise might work.
You have find another reason to justify supporting a candidate so wrong for America.
What does anything that happened on September 11th have to do with going to war in Iraq?
They have absolutely nothing to do with each other except the fact that your candidate allowed herself to be duped by Bush and Cheney. Talk about wrong for America, the repercussions of that vote will be with us for years to come. I don’t want a president who is going to pull the trigger without thinking just because America is scared.
THANK YOU! I’ve always thought so too Uppity! Thanks for saying it.
That is described in several books I have read as well. Powell was over at CIA and cloistered looking over OSP intel and knew it was crap. I can’t imagine how he felt, knowing your part in the shceme was to play the fool.
His chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson,has collaberated these comments.
I wasn’t trying to give the impression that I agreed with Rove. I do not. The whole point is that he and the republicans will use these talking points in the general election. And they will be effective.
Fleaflicker, Intel is Intel. I will make the Wilson’s thier very own kite, when that fool goes to jail for Gov. Siegelman of Alabama and his role in outing Valerie Wilson. Until then he is not to be ignored as irrelvent.
People like Karl Rove actually learn from their mistakes. I saw a post with Ed Rollins and Grover saying the same thing. It is not as if these folks agree with each other, it is more like BO is the conductor tuning up the Rethug Symphonic Orchestra at no charge. The first composition will be Missa pro Defunctis; A Requiem for Obama.
Obama is up there getting the timpani squared away for them as we speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timpany#Timpani_in_the_orchestra
He was easier to keep track of when he worked in the White House. Hell, he has time to work behind both curtains. He’s a diabolical, treasonous weasel and he has entirely too much time on his hands.
Where are those hearings re: Ralston? Where are the hearings to hold these war criminals accountable?
Madam Speaker…don’t you think that it’s about time we set the table? You took an oath, Nancy. Do your job.
has entirely too much time on his hands. Yup!
Is Taylor Marsh down again tonght?
I like Larry and I like his weblog.
I also think Senator Clinton is the best choice to be President.
I don’t like the Obama bashing. And I think it’s strengthening McCain.
Hooray for sanity in a Clinton supporter!
I don’t like the bashing either. But I believe Senator Clinton should fight fire with fire whenever she is bashed. If she doesn’t respond, they will then say that she is weak. If I remember correctly, Barack started the negative campaigning with a commercial about Hillary being something like “big brother” back in March of 2007. The “effete” Barack needs to take it like a man if he is going to dish it out.
The candidates firing back and forth is OK with me to a point. As soon as they use Republican framing I’m not pleased. I didn’t like Obama’s Harry and Louise ads, I don’t like Hillary using fear of terror and “elitism” to try to win votes.
But even those things don’t bug me as much as the supporters of both candidates and their name calling. I also disagree with folks on both sides who are going to vote McCain or someone else if their candidate doesn’t win. I was in this group and came to my senses. This attitude is very harmful to our common interests.
I think Obama as the nominee strengthens McCain. We’re not winning with him; he needs to go.
i do not enjoy political blackmail. and yes, i will continue to criticize obama, for he is a major liability for Democrats.
I agree…Most of this is for the benefit of Dean the Putz et.al, The party is reading this stuff…..Just don’t know if they’ll pay attention….Oftentimes what is said publicly is different then what’s done out of the public eye.
The only way Obama bashing, as you put it, strengthens McCain is if Obama is the nominee. And I am doing anything I can (within reason) to make that something that never comes about. I care about my country before I care about a political party with which I have a long affiliation.
Obama is NOT good for our country. He and his racist, bigoted, terrorist supporters will get nothing but grief from me. It’s my patriotic duty.
“I don’t like the Obama bashing. And I think it’s strengthening McCain.”
Oh please buy a clue!
WE DON’T WANT OBAMA AS OUR NOMINEE!
For the reasons given here and then some.
We don’t have to say squat. With Obama as the nominee that in and of itself will strengthen McCain. The Repugs have always known this.
They banked on the abject Hillary-hatred from the leftwing to create precisely what is going on now. an irrevocable parting of the ways and to enable their candidate to win. Even before many Dems became disenchanted with BO, the leftwing was working overtime to bring down Hillary. Nobody said anything about that then, because Hillary’s fair game. Now, everybody’s whining after Bo has revealed himself to be the weakest candidate of the whole lot this Primary season. And whose fault is that? Blame the MSM that Edwards bowed out so early.
For me this not just about 2008. It’s 1968, 1972, 1980, 1988, 2000 and 2004. It’s EVERYTHING the Party has done to shoot themselves in the foot each time a Presidential Election comes around.
Sorry, but a lot of folks are simply getting off the stupidity train. And yes it’s a damn shame that it means 4 more years of Republicans.
But the Party has done that to themselves.
i cannot get onto taylormarsh.com. becoming a daily occurance.
I was on there for most of Saturday night. I did have problems on early Sunday morning, so I am now visiting this site. I like them both!
I think it is a good idea to have this video posted here so that we all can see the master manipulator Karl Rove express what the Republicans concerns are, and how these issues may play out in the coming election.
One thing of note at the very end of the clip, he mentioned that Clinton did not support the Protect America Act. This might hurt Clinton, too, depending on how the Republicans frame the issue in the fall. Personally, I don’t know what to think about the issue. Part of me wants to know the government is actively protecting us, but the other part of me doesn’t want to give the government so much power that some of our personal freedoms are lost in the process. I don’t want a continual loss of rights whenever the government requests this from us. What will the limit be? It could be a dangerous precedent.
Damnit, it was just a matter of time, and it has begun: the GOP has seized on Obama’s moronic San Francisco remarks and is using them against downticket Dems:
http://www.villarrealsports.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=365
This guy is not only going to destroy himself politically, he is going to take down our whole freaking party with him.
Superdelegates: Get him OUTTA here before we get blown out in November AFTER 8 years of the most unpopular President in history. We will be crippled for a generation if we lose like we will lose with Obama.
Daily Kos, MyDD, etc.: Those of us with experience have been trying our best to warn you what was coming, and now you are about to experience it yourself. Thanks a freaking lot.
Is anyone surprised by this? I mean really, has there EVER been a more elitest, no contact with the middle to working class, abso-farkin-lutely NO relevent experiance or qualification, meatpuppet run for President before? EVER? Maybe if they drug Dan Quayle in off the golf course. But that would be about it.
Oh but please don’t point out that the country is “caught up in the concept.”
Ssshhhhhh!
A reminder: It has been a LONG TIME since we had a Color-Coded Terrorist Threat Alert.
A prediction: The DHS will declare one during the Party Conventions (the excuse is always there). Yellow, at first, escalating to Orange perhaps on Coronation Nite in Denver.
A further prediction: A group of people (Domestic Terror Cell) will be arrested in October. To the General Public, as sick as they are of Bushco, it will look real enough.
Final prediction: A hopeful coalition of Blacks and Liberal Arts Majors can not secure enough Electoral Votes to win in November.
PMS, you obviously do not fly! The color-coded terrorist alert has been ORANGE for a VERY long time! The ONLY color above that is RED!
I am not sure that any terrorist threat or apprehension of “bad guys” is going to divert public attention from our crumbling economy. Even the war in Iraq dovetails nicely into the economy since the $3 billion per week pricetag of continuing the war is certainly taking its toll on our economy.
If PMS’ premise about the potential for havoc from a bogus terrorist threat were correct, then the 2004 election following bin Laden’s tape should have been a complete Republican rout. Instead, the election was relatively close with the key factor actually being those pesky anti-gay marriage referendums that were strategically placed on the ballots in a number of key battleground states.
I’m thinkin Tap Dancin Jesus is comin to Denver, so all of this may be moot….Has anyone contacted the Mormons? They think the Official Apocalyptic Drop Zone is Missouri …. I think…
Greetings from Beirut.
I see the anti-Obamania is still very much in control of the minds here. I was hoping for something more interesting, like the good old days. :o} Oh, well.
Today is my last day in Beirut. I will head for Damascus tomorrow by car. Today am exploring the city somewhat at random on my own. Yesterday I spent several hours walking around Baalbek (google it and learn something if you don’t know about it - the pyramids outside Cairo are nothing compared to this!), and nothing in Egypt can provide the same continuous sweep of pre-history and history). The day before I walked all the length of the Corniche and back again, and explored the campus at AUB, which is a beautiful campus, and the most prestigious university in the region. Today I have been to the “downtown” area, which has been very nicely restored in part and still is undergoing restoration - pending Israel deciding to bomb Lebanon back a few decades again as they did in 2006, that is. My leg muscles are crying out for relief, but there is so little time, so much to see and do.
In Amman I met with some family members and we talked for many hours about everything - old times, family, friends, and neighbors, their experience in Iraq and in Jordan, politics…you name it. I also met with an Iraqi lady who works with the most impoverished refugees.
Anyway, sorry to see that the obsession here with Obama as anti-Christ (and Hillary as the angel of life?) has not abated (and for those of you who do not know me, I am not - repeat NOT - an Obama supporter).
It is unlikely I will be able to comment here any more while I am traveling, as I am mainly dependent on my hosts for internet connection, or have to go to an internet cafe. I just wanted to say hello.
marhaba shirin, kifak?
I don’t believe there is an obsession to make Obama an anti-christ. It would be nice if the those who disagree with what appears to be a majority view on this blog would spend less time insulting the views and try to find out where the views come from. The majority of dissent from these views simply engage in ad hominem reductions to “obamahaters” and as Democrats many of them should remember well how Republicans did this to those who criticized George W Bush and got reduced to Bushhaters.
I don’t hate Obama. I don’t trust him. I’m getting tired of hearing, “but everyone thinks Obama is the better candidate” or “well you need to think for yourself and you’d see Obama is a better candidate” etc.
I hope you stay safe during your travels, inshallah.
Hate is strong word, but I can say that I don’t like him. I don’t like how manipulative he is. He is a true Pied Piper, and it makes me ill to see so many impressionable people falling for his BS.
I think Israel was RESPONDING to perpetual missile fire. If you shoot at somebody, you can’t be too surprised when they shoot back.
Everyone is praying for peace in the middle east, and it would be excellent to visit the beautiful countries you are fortunate to be seeing now.
Have an wonderful trip, and get home safely.
Hello Shirin,
Thanks for the terrific tour of Beirut. I live in an area with many Lebanese ex-pats. Since the 2006 war, I have been yearning to go to Lebanon and see the history.
When you come back, please, please post pictures - with you starring in them if you chose. Ancient history has always been a favorite of mine. I am one of those who really beleives that the past has so much to teach us about solutions to present problems.
Be safe!
Hi Chris,
Inertia due largely to aching muscles have kept me in this internet cafe long enough to see your reply - thanks.
I have to tell you that it does looke here very much like Jihad on Obama! Honestly, I am sick of both sides in this intra-Democrat fight, and I fear that both sides are going to help elect McCain. People are painting themselves into a corner really.
By the way, I do not trust either Obama OR Hillary Clinton. The main difference is that in Hillary’s case there is a lot of history I can use to form my expectations regarding Iraq, Palestine, Israel, etc., and I do not have high expectations. As for Obama, too much is unknown, but I do not need to have every possible negative about him put in my face day after day after day.
Politics is a dirty, corrupt business no matter what system you are under. The main difference between here and the USA is that in the USA there is more verbal than physical violence. Otherwise it is the same - one faction trying to destroy the others, and in the meantime groups sometimes forming very strange alliances.
This is about more than the War in Iraq. The country is in crisis. We need an FDR type progressive to rebuild the economic foundation and restore
confidence in America’s ability to restructure our economy in keeping with the Global economy. New Democrats have already demonstrated innovative approaches that the GOP cannot deny even as they try to re-write the history books. Gore, a New Democrat would’ve continued but was HIJACKED in 2000. Sen. Clinton is a New Democrat, so if you don’t want to vote for her, then vote progressive ( New Democrat ). Look it up. If you want to vote New Left (Liberal) then I can assure you we will lose in Nov. OBAMESSIAH is a New Left puppet. Look at his puppeteers. Kerry and Kennedy.
Working Class, I am reminded of the song When Everything Old is New Again. The New Left is identical to me to the McGovern children. This is all so close to 1972, it’s almost predictable. And if Obama doesn’t completely destruct all by himself, his supporters will be the final straw for him in the end. Nobody likes to be bullied and threatened, and adults in general tend to cringe at busloads of college kids showing up at conventions and caucuses and bullying people, demonstrating and generally wreaking havoc. Most adults recognize half these kids as a relative who is still hanging around their parents’ home trying to be “independent’ on parental money. His Youth Movement will be his demise, coupled with his or/and his fans’/surrogates’ disdain for women and ethnic or stereotyped groups, such as Garlic Noses, Jews, and now Small Town Americans.
The “Arugula” Democrats will achieve nothing, but I admit they have succeeded in raising the price of a cheap pile of greens that has been eaten by the poorest Italians for centuries–and can practically be grown wild, considering it is only one step up from dandelions. In the meantime, the Snob looks, the Snob words and attitudes, the Snob-Nose in the air Obama has mastered have at least been a great source of entertainment. Barack Obama will never be President, and he can blame others all he wants. It’s Him.
Everything Old is New Again, for sure.
It’s not just kids with many ideals and little practical real life experience, it’s the whole far-Left mantra.
The the crux of the problem is: when special interests want radical change; without checks of their influence; and disregard for the well being of the country itself.
This makes gridlock and extremism the status quo. It makes both Republican and Democrat at each other’s throats, when traditionally they worked together (it was even said they dined together in Washington as colleagues — something almost unheard of in this uber partisan day).
I want those old days to return, because some of the best legislation this country produced came when even ideologically different politicians would work together for the COMMON GOOD.
Uppity and Chris XP both say it well. The problem is that many of OBAMESSIAH supporters are either New Left ID Poilitical Fringers or simply ingnorant independents who know very little about the evolution of American Politics and it’s relationship to CORPOPRESS and the rise of the New Right in the GOP. This is a power fight within our party. I’m so mad at Dean The Putz, Donna ( Forever Neutral as I tear apart the party with my HYPOCRISY ) BraZEAL et, al… I completly sympathize with the moniker chosen by another commenter…Life time Democrat leaving the party. If The New Left succeeds in their agenda there will be know progressive legislation. I’ll be 80 before another FDR progressive appears in the scene. I came of political awareness during Watergate, lived through the devastating buffonery of St. Reagan…Kept up with the frozen body count in Philadelphia during GHWB winter of 88-89 when homeless entered the american vocabulary and Aids was stll a gay disease that Falwell assured us was deserved. I mean the first break the Democrats got was the Clinton/Gore years…And to watch as the New Left tears it up in political suicide is truly breathtaking. Thanks, had to rant a little. My increasingly bitter and disillusioned dog Harry will not vote for OBAMESSIAH either.
It’s sure good to hear from you Shirin..
I, for one, have missed your posts.. Hope you are enjoying yourself over there.
-the hoopster
Well, enjoying is not exactly the word.
Today, by the way, is the first anniversary of the beginning of the 15 year Lebanese civil war, and there are lots of events going on this week. Today in the “downtown” area there was a very nice march commemorating the day, and tonight I attended an interesting event as well. The majority of the population do not, of course, want a repeat of that 15 years of hell, but as usual the “leaders” do not really care about that.
And if there is a democracy in the Middle East, it is Lebanon where they have been holding vibrant elections for decades - something very few Americans have any idea about.
So, whether it is America or Lebanon, well, so much for democracy! The will of the people in important matters still does not count for much.
Okay, I’m going to say what I think here:
This speech from Rove is a gift to Obama supporters.
First, Rove says Obama voted to deny funding–”twice”–and that is actually a good thing for Obamabots to hear.
Secondly, Rove says Obama [and Clinton] voted against the re-authorization of the PATRIOT Act. That’s a good thing for Obamabots to hear.
Now, admittedly, Rove argues that to strengthen “intelligence” we must have the PATRIOT Act–a specious, ridiculous, and laughable argument. We don’t need to eliminate the 4th Amendment to the Constitution, and spy on ordinary Americans to “strengthen” intelligence.
Thirdly, Rove says he’s going to talk about Obama because he’s riled up at him. But, he jumps right in with criticism of Bill Clinton’s words in ‘98 about Iraq. That helps Obamabots to smear Hillary Clinton based on the association.
I don’t think this video does anything to hurt Obama, and frankly, I think it does everything to help him, because Karl Rove does not have the same level of credibility he had 4 years ago. And, the vast majority of Americans would listen to what he says here, and toss it off as just more lies from the Bushies, whom they now despise.
I don’t think you can expect too much criticism about this video from Obama supporters, Larry. There’s much in it they could consider a gift.
why are you aiming that comment at Larry, he didn’t post the video. Is it always only about Larry? Larry this, larry that. You know Larry is only one of the authors around here now.
But to your comments:
It doesn’t matter if the Obama “supporters” like these comments. He is in a preseason if you will. What matters is what the general electorate thinks. And trust me on this one…Barry’s a little bit left field these days.
Now, I’m probably more left than Barry H, but I know…I’m pretty fucking unelectable and I like that. If you wanted a real revolution, elect me and I’ll make heads spin. I’ll lock up half of congress and put the current administration under fucking Guantanamo.
Thus the point, Barry H is not as appealing to middle America as his spin suggests. He is doing well amongst Democrats, but that’s no big deal. When you consider that Bush was doing great among conservatives and still has a loyal 28% idiot base, so what. But he had a sizable following early on 8 years ago. Ideologues are like that.
But do the math and you’ll see Barry H has some work to do to reach beyond his choir, his loyal charmed choir who think that Barry H can do no wrong.
Just listen to them this morning on CSPAN. They really believe he was just mirroring “bitter” feelings, and completely ignored that he basically called a lot of people bigots. His comments about “so they cling to their guns and religion” and they express “antipathy towards those who are not like them”…is more than describing bitterness. Its accusing people of being bigots. And it is the result of his echochamber Leftist crap.
I had a great talk with a long time friend who knows my politics better than almost anyone and she said, “but those are the kind of things you used to say when we used to talk about people. you were pretty intolerant of rednecks and basic common folk because you thought they were ignorant and bigotted. right?”
“yep!”
“then why do you think what he said is wrong?”
“why did you insist back then that I was being elitist and closeminded and wrong about them? Has that changed?”
“No, I think you were wrong about people.”
“but have I changed about that over time as I grew up?”
“well, yes you have a bit.”
“but do you think I was wrong then?”
“yes, you know I do”
“then how is Barack Obama right now by saying the same thing?”
The End Game is all that matters.
The results if the End Game isn’t played is…only 5 Democrat presidents in 50 years.
That must be retaught to every new generation of Democrats, because every 20 years they tend to forget this simple truth: you must have a candidate that isn’t so radical to force voters to go with an old reliable, than one who might burn Washington down.
I don’t want to vote for McCain, but if there’s no other choice that’s viable but between McCain and Obama, it forces my hand to go with the less radical of the lot. Why even though I’m a conservative I’d support Hillary, as she’s a measured compromise between a War King and a Miliant Maoist.
Spoken by a true pogressive…For solace oftimes I go to American Rhetoric.com and re-read the Really Great speeches of my Democratic super heroes. OBAMESSIAH cannot hold a candle to any one of them.
That sounds like a Marsha, Marsha, Marsha Brady moment.
Too funny!
Well it’s a gift he will be able to study for years to come because he will never be President. If the swift boaters don’t make sure of it, the disenfranchised and marginalized groups will.
BMC, that sounds like what they do, and how they do it.
I have to watch it later. I don’t want to look at Rove or listen to him, or think about him just now.
The basic truth is that Rove and every other Republican are going to enjoy having Obama as their opponent, for one simple fact, they can win against him, unlike Hillary’s ability to remind people of Obama’s continual imploding messes and lack of experience and the more being unveiled about him he will crumble completely!
No one seems to remember Obama has never had to fight for an election, he has gotten to his place in politics by dirty behind the scenes means, he can’t withstand Clinton, no way he will against the Republicans!
Experience vs. Judgment: The First McCain-Obama Debate
Guest post by Yab, TaylorMarsh.com 4/13/08
The problem with that “judgment” thing is that Obama has a few votes in both the Illinois state legislature and the U.S. Senate where his “judgment” may look pretty bad. Even otherwise liberal Democrats may not be overly “thrilled” with Obama’s vote for Cheney’s “big oil give-away” energy bill. And I imagine that a lot of middle-class Americans who are drowning in debt may have a hard time seeing “good judgment” in Obama’s vote against placing cap of 30% on credit card interest rates.
Sure, Hillary Clinton has her share of bad votes that she would just as soon disappeared (e.g., Clinton’s vote for that abominable bankruptcy bill in 2001), but unlike Obama, she is not holding her impeccable judgment in ONE case as the sole reason for voting for her.
Snob-ama Slight a Big Time Error
SnObama… Love it!
Comment by Fleaflicker | 2008-04-12 23:09:09
Rove is only a part of the machine. Do not be caught off guard. Their name is legion. They are many.
Hello to the one who flicks fleas!
I had to comment on this. When I read it I literally shuddered!
It’s been years since I went to church but I remember a lot of the teachings and it really sent a chill just now reading it.
ROVE (and his acolytes) ARE E V I L
I have little doubt
Glad you get it. I know these folks are evil.
Hi ebonyscrews,
Did you see the poll on that page (right?)
Obama on ‘bitter’ voters
Poll Results
Thank you for voting.
Do you think Obama’s comments on working-class voters were out of line?
Yes 74%
No 26%
LOL! ya think?
Obama is the biggest liability to the Democrat Party.
He is a liability to the Presidential and VP ticket.
And now he’s also a liability to the Democrat down tickets.
The Superdelegates that endorsed him will be responsibility for Democrat catastrophic lost in the 2008 general election.
Rove somehow glosses over the fact that in spite of advice to the contray, Bush was the one who committed 140,000 American troops and destroyed Iraq either in error or with criminal intent. Clinton, Kerry or Kennedy didn’t kill 100,000 Iraqis and 4000 American troops, HE DID!
This is the same rhetorical bull shit that Rove and Bush have been trying to shove down the throat of the American people for the last six years. They don’t buy it anymore. Clinton is far more vulnerable to these idiotic attacks than Obama. However, even she could rise above them. The past six years have proven Bush and Rove wrong over an over again.
Rove and Bush and McCain just keep singing the same song like bad karaoke.
No, the Republicans LOST three wars, the reality.
Without change, they will continue to lose, as none are intellectually capable of understanding the greater dynamics.
Which is what happens when you cheat, you get MORONS in office.
Big difference.
Your attempts to spin won’t make the losses go away, so at a certain point, tptb have to make a decision in terms of American strategy.
Sorry if you weren’t spinning, but how you’re responding will be how they respond, an attempt to misdirect the war losses.
And until it changes, American ability to defend itself economically, militarily and politically will be continually weakened, like Russia when the USSR fell.
Oh, this is real, now, a danger of real loss affecting American strategic and economic position, no longer just a political video game, and it’s scary for those unprepared, like Rove, and Cheney, and boofoo Wall Street.
Someone should make it unreal so they can cope.
heh.
Sorry, I think of Rove, and the Obamabots, and the first thing I hear is the song “Valley Girl” by Moon Zappa: “he called me a beastie, it’s not like I’m really ugly or anything.”
Of course not, karl…
Valley girl
Shes a valley girl
Valley girl
Shes a valley girl
Okay, fine…
Fer sure, fer sure
Shes a valley girl
In a clothing store
Okay, fine…
Fer sure, fer sure
Shes a
Like, oh my god! (valley girl)
Like - totally (valley girl)
Encino is like so bitchen (valley girl)
Theres like the galleria (valley girl)
And like all these like really great shoe stores
I love going into like clothing stores and stuff
I like buy the neatest mini-skirts and stuff
Its like so bitchen cuz like everybodys like
Super-super nice…
Its like so bitchen…
On ventura, there she goes
She just bought some bitchen clothes
Tosses her head n flips her hair
She got a whole bunch of nothin in there
Anyway, he goes are you into s and m?
I go, oh right…
Could you like just picture me in like a leather teddy
Yeah right, hurt me, hurt me…
Im sure! no way!
He was like freaking me out…
He called me a beastie…
Thats cuz like he was totally blitzed
He goes like bag your face!
Im sure!
Valley girl
Shes a valley girl
Valley girl
Shes a valley girl
Okay, fine…
Fer sure, fer sure
Shes a valley girl
So sweet n pure
Okay, fine…
Fer sure, fer sure
Shes a
Its really sad (valley girl)
Like my english teacher
Hes like… (valley girl)
Hes like mr. bu-fu (valley girl)
Were talking lord God king bu-fu (valley girl)
I am so sure
Hes like so gross
He like sits there and like plays with all his rings
And he like flirts with all the guys in the class
Its like totally disgusting
Im like so sure
Its like barf me out…
Gag me with a spoon!
Last idea to cross her mind
Had something to do with where to find
A pair of jeans to fit her butt
And where to get her toenails cut
So like I go into this like salon place, yknow
And I wanted like to get my toenails done
And the lady like goes, oh my god, your toenails
Are like so grody
It was like really embarrassing
Shes like oh my god, like bag those toenails
Im like sure…
She goes, uh, I dont know if I can handle this, yknow…
I was like really embarrassed…
Valley girl
Shes a valley girl
Valley girl
Shes a valley girl
Okay, fine
Fer sure, fer sure
Shes a valley girl
And there is no cure
Okay, fine
Fer sure, fer sure
Shes a valley girl
And there is no cure
Like my mother is like a total space cadet (valley girl)
She like makes me do the dishes and (valley girl)
Clean the cat box (valley girl)
I am sure
Thats like gross (valley girl)
Barf out! (valley girl)
Oh my God (valley girl)
Hi!
Uh-huh… (valley girl)
My name?
My name is ondrya wolfson (valley girl)
Uh-huh
Thats right, ondrya (valley girl)
Uh-huh…
I know
Its like… (valley girl)
I do not talk funny…
Im sure (valley girl)
Whatsa matter with the way I talk? (valley girl)
I am a val, I know (valley girl)
But I live like in a really good part of encino so its okay
(valley girl)
Uh-huh… (valley girl)
So like, I dont know (valley girl)
Im like freaking out totally (valley girl)
Oh my god! (valley girl)
Hi - I have to go to the orthodontist (valley girl)
Im getting my braces off, yknow (valley girl)
But I have to wear a retainer
Thats going to be really like a total bummer
Im freaking out
Im sure
Its like those things that like stick in your mouth
Theyre so gross…
You like get saliva all over them
But like, I dont know, its going to be cool, yknow
So you can see my smile
Itll be like really cool
Except my like my teeth are like too small
But no biggie…
Its so awesome
Its like tubular, yknow
Well, Im not like really ugly or anything
Its just like
I dont know
You know me, Im like into like the clean stuff
Like pac-man and like, I dont know
Like my mother like makes me do the dishes
Its like so gross…
Like all the stuff like sticks to the plates
And its like, its like somebody elses food, yknow
Its like grody…
Grody to the max
Im sure
Its like really nauseating
Like barf out
Gag me with a spoon
Gross
I am sure
Totally…
By moon and frank, digging deep in the valley of anal vapors…
You won’t see me denying that. The point is that their lies work.
If Rove et,al. suceed in making the GE about the WAR, and they are running against OBAMESSIAH ( Radical…Radical…Radical… ) they will run. If Clinton is the nominee, it will be about IT’S THE ECONOMY STUPID and the democrats will win. The GOP has no argument against New Democrat Economics policies. They will have to stoop to Arkansas Project and OMG she’s a woman tactics. OBAMESSIAH is pandering to a base that is an illusion. The youth vote is NOTORIOUSLY unreliable and the New independents will revert to McCain. All he has is the AA vote, which hate to say it ain’t enough.
Hmm.
I keep seeing a highly flatulent pseudo intellectual Bart Simpson, older, with glasses.
Is that the real Karl?
I see no difference between the fascist followers of Rove and the Republicans and the fascist followers of Obama. Frankly, I can not tell them apart. I do think it’s clear that Hillary Clinton could stand up to Rove and debate him and win. I think it’s obvious that in the same situation, Rove would have Obama crying and grabbing his knees. I do not know why the Democratic party can not see this. Do they really want to prove some point to some group of people so badly that they are willing to lose the general election and lose seats for Dems from county commissioner on up? I’m starting to think that the good Dems need to stop taking crap from the bad Dems. We’ve kind of been like that parent that sits there in some lecture or movie or something and lets their kids smack them on the heads, scream at the top of their lungs, dump ice cream on the stranger sitting next to them…(you know those wonderful parents) and expect everyone else who’s evening is being ruined to think that their heinous, uncontrollable offspring are swell. I’m afraid it is time for the good Dems to say NO. NO Nancy you can’t have your way. NO Donna you can’t poor ice cream on the heads of those people. No Howard you have to stop screaming at the top of your lungs now. It’s time for our party to take out the children who can’t play well with others and who have no acceptable behavior. It is time for a big time out. It is time for the adults to be adults.
Block Dean’s nomination of Obamatrons for the convention leaders. NO Nancy. Go sit in the corner until you can play nicely….
SEIG HEIL!
“I think Israel was RESPONDING to perpetual missile fire.”
Actually, no, they were not, and they didn’t even make that claim this time, so in this case you are not even repeating Israeli propaganda, but are making up your own excuses. And even if they had been “responding to perpetual missile fire”, which is ridiculous since they have been the ones consistently violating Lebanese territory, what they did was so completely out of proportion as to constitute a crime against humanity. They not only systematically destroyed civilian infrastructure in ways that obviously had no military usefulness, they carpeted southern Lebanon with a million or so cluster bombs AFTER the cease fire had been signed.
Fortunately for you, I do not have time to go into details. Suffice it to say that BY ISRAELIS’ OWN ADMISSION they were looking for a pretext to devastate Lebanon, which unfortunately Hezbullah graciously provided to them by capturing (NOT kidnapping - civilians get kidnapped, soldiers get captured) two soldiers, who may (or may not, it is ambiguous) have been in Lebanese territory.
McCain’s first speech about his opponent Obama!
The Democratic party chose to run a candidate who they feel best suits their Paties Ideals and Values! A candidate who claims the vast majority of Americans who live in small town USA are bitter, and thus hang on to religion and guns, hate immigrants and hate Washington!
A candidate who tells Americans he will tear up NAFTA yet sends his Advisors to foreign governments saying don’t worry, it is campaign rhetoric.
A candidate who wrote books full of lies and fantasies.
A candidate who when challenged will label his confronter as a racist.
A candidate who’s wife is no proud of America until her husband was a viable candidate to lead the country.
A candidate who’s own wife wouldn’t come out and say she’d support he husbands opponent if he lost the nomination.
A candidate who says he is worried like most Americans as it is tough in finding the $10 grand for his daughters dance and singing lessons, and knows how Americans feel about not having the simple things in life.
A candidate who alines himself with terrorists and slumlords.
A candidate who eliminates opponents in dirty ways to advance his own agenda.
A candidate who for 20 years has practiced his faith in a church that is full of hate, even taking his children to mold them in that American hate faith church!
A candidate who blames his faith on every American and not on his judgement of the kind of church to attent and expose his children to!
A candidate who throws old folks, even his own blood, under the bus to save himself from questioning his beliefs.
A candidate who says he will sit down unconditionally with America’s enemies to work out differences and yet wouldn’t sit down with the directors of Maytag to save American jobs.
A candidate who wrote a speech in 2002 for an anti-war rally of 350 people and today has the support of one of the largest shareholders of an arms manufacturer sitting on his campaign finance commitee!
Now my friends, I may be 70 yrs old, but I am no fool, I have stood up for Americans in war and in the Senate, and I may not be able to give glowing speeches, but I call things as I see them and the Democratic Party has chosen to give you as their choice to run the country the most unpatriotic, dirtiest, arrogant and bitter of candidates to be the leader of your country! Well my friends, may be old, but I also know something about politics and if a Party is willing to give you this sort of candidate as the direction they believe is best for America, then it would be highly rediculous of you to think that along with the candidate they expect you to lead them into the future is the same sorts of candidates they expect you to fill those seats in congress with!
My friends, you know my record and my views of America and you have been exposed to my opponents to some degree and I might not be the finest of Americans to ever enter the Whitehouse but based upon what we know of my opponent, I certainly would not want to be what my opponents Party decided America should be!
“This is about more than the War in Iraq.”
1) I did not only mention the so-called “war” in Iraq. Foreign policy in general and Middle East/Islamic world policy is a huge part of the problem and we need someone in charge who will get the US acting like a decent citizen of the world.
2) There is no war in Iraq. There was an act of pure aggression, and now there is an endless, oppressive, and bloody occupation, which neither Clinton nor Obama has any intention whatsoever of ending.
3) The Iraq occupation is a HUGE part of the economic problems of the United States, and if the U.S. would withdraw completely (not the non-withdrawal “withdrawal” that Hillary and Obama have in mind), it would not only relieve many of Iraq’s problems, but would help the USA to no end.
PS to an earlier comment by someone else:
Regarding Israel’s 2006 war crime against Lebanon, I forgot to mention that Israel not only targeted civilian infrastructure in some not-terribly-militarily effective ways (such as bombing one bridge and leaving another parallel bridge perfectly intact, something they did in numerous cases some of which I have seen with my own eyes), they targeted civilian people, killing more than one thousand of them, in some cases ordering villages evacuated and then targeting the families as they tried to leave, and they deliberately caused a disastrous oil spill by bombing a storage facility (oh, SURE it was an accident!). Believe me, you do not want to get me started on this topic. Luckily for you, I have no time and a slow internet connection.
This is what we call it here….You are arguing a pointless semantic with regards to this election. Over here it is a factor but not only factor. Here’s a new one to consider…It is almost certain that this country will re-instate the draft if anyone’s paying attention.
“It is almost certain that this country will re-instate the draft if anyone’s paying attention…”
Good. I hope they do. Then maybe Americans will realize what attacking other countries is really costing them and do something about it.
“You are arguing a pointless semantic with regards to this election. Over here it is a factor but not only factor.”
1) We may disagree on just how important foreign policy is, but it has nothing to do with semantics, so please learn what “semantic” means and use it correctly.
2) For the third time (or so), I have not said Iraq is “the only factor”. I have said that foreign policy and military policy, too, are CRITICAL factors, and any American who closes his eyes to that is playing a very risky game with his own life and the state of the entire world.
“I find no pleasure in posting this video”
Bullsh*t - you, Susan and others have no problem whatsoever quoting anyone who presents ideas that support your views.
You guys have quoted Fox, Rove (before as well), Hannity and Hinderaker…
Fine, quote whomever, but don’t feign hesitance or embarassment in doing so.
If you feel that way and agree have the balls to present it without condition.
Kevin … I think you’re on the wrong post with this … this was your comment from last evening when we saw BO slam OHIO and Pennsylvania in SFO …
I’m listening to that PA Senator Casey spin for Barack. Here’s a guy who won because his opponent was that moron Rick Santorum and PA couldn’t wait to get rid of that embarrassing psychotic homophobic religious nutcase. I bet Casey is ticking off Pennylvanians big time defending what Obama said about them. I do hope he has other plans in his life at the next senatorial race because somebody is going to challenge the hell out of him.
Bravo! I like Rendell…He makes me miss Philly….
What part of Obama’s extreme left abortion stance is Casey willing to embrace in order to “even” the score with Bill Clinton?
None of this is about Hillary Clinton at all.
There are so many people just looking to even thescore with Bill for slights real or perceived that the Democratic party will throw it all away for a historic defeat by the Republicans in November. Now, that’s what I call BITTER.
I always has the feeling that this dem primaries in away Rove had something to do with it. It just doesn’t make any sense to any sane democrat what the heads in the party are doing. I can understand kennedy and Kerry’s petty jellousy but what wrong with Dean? something awfully sinster is going on. I don’t think Obama has it in him to do all that damage…you guys are giving him waaaay tooo much credit. should stick with Hillary to the end… I mean if god forbid that clown wins.
first of all, what Obama is quoted as saying in the beginning of the clip is true - Bush lied us into war. All of Rove’s nonsensical quoting of Clinton in 1998 does not change the fact that Bush lied us into war. It IS however true that once in the Senate Obama clammed right up and kissed Bush’s ass. He has little to be proud of on that score.
sorry, just bm’ed yr site but cant go there
The weak part of Roves argument is the cherry picking of information by the Bush cabal. Add to that all the Democrats he quotes were asking for the inspections to be allowed to play out, something which, of course, Bush could not and would not do because ,another point, he was set to go to war from the start. When you give the devil a chance to frame and answer his own argument, you allow him to bamboozle you. Rove did that masterfully here, but since we KNOW he’s the devil, his argument is easier to counter using known facts and information which he leaves OUT of HIS frame.
WE ARE FOOLED NO MORE.