“The Greatest Generation”……
By Larry Doyle on November 14, 2008 at 7:45 AM in American Consumers, Banking Institutions, Current Affairs, Economic Stimulus, Economy
I commend HRC for providing some real leadership at this point in time. There is no doubt that our country is screaming for real leadership. From Washington to Wall St. to Main St. our citizens are looking for people and programs that will look forward and take the vital and necessary steps to change our national mindset. Do you get the sense that perhaps some supporters of BO are getting a little nervous and now realize that he is a very high risk President-elect?
HRC’s stimulus proposal addresses a number of fronts (expanding unemployment insurance, addressing Medicaid, funding infrastructure projects and clean energy, modify mortgages) which will need focus from Congress to create a demonstrative impact on our economy. Some of the programs will clearly be impactful while others may have unintended negative consequences. We will have to take some prudent but necessary risks to achieve positive results.
The TARP bailout/rescue plan proposed to date has not inspired confidence nor generated any real impact for three reasons:
1. the banks have such sizable embedded losses that the funds already injected are being and will be used to recapitalize the balance sheets …
2. investors have little to no appetite to purchase loans currently on the banks’ books which were not properly underwritten and will likely continue to suffer an ever increasing level of delinquencies and defaults …
3. little to no demand for funds due to the fact that most individuals and institutions are looking to decrease their debt service not increase it …
As a result our economy spirals downward. HRC’s plan addresses some of our most serious needs. I commend her.
That said, I assume we will plod and muddle our way through this fiasco and come out the other side in a few years. Will anything have really changed? Will we have learned our lessons? Will we move forward in hopes that we leave our nation a better place for future generations? Let’s look at the trend lines on a number of fronts that have to change if we want to return to real long term prosperity. While each of these points is targeted at us collectively, we do not need to be reminded that the collective is merely a function of totalling the individuals. For all young readers, instill discipline in your personal lives from a financial perspective and otherwise!!
1. Personal Savings: during the ’80s we had on average a 9% personal savings rate, during the 90s that rate moved to 5%, now it is 1% and trending lower … this must change … we can’t be totally dependent on foreign financing …
2. Total Liabilities: across all our programs we have total long term liabilities of $52 trillion dollars … and growing … this must change …
3. Debt vs GDP: I find it somewhat hard to believe but a lot of what has happened is hard to believe, but a highly respected commentator this morning highlighted the fact that over the last 15 yrs that our total debts have outpaced our GDP by a rate of 3 to 1 … this must change consistent with point 1 …
4. Dropout Rate: as I have highlighted in a previous post, our inner city dropout rate is 50%. We will not be competitive economically with an education system that underperforms this dramatically … this must change …
5. Birth Rates: as I have highlighted in a previous post, 70% of new borne African Americans enter this world into single parent families (50% of Hispanics, 30% of Caucasians) … this must change …
While HRC’s proposal addresses some near term and long term needs, how do we change our national mindset and break the trend lines in points 1-5. If we do not break these trend lines, I firmly believe that our way of life will be seriously threatened and that future generations will be burdened with debts that will choke off their ability to grow the economy and achieve long term prosperity.
Through the powers of modern medicine our population is aging. Any country worth its salt is indebted to care for its elderly. Our elderly are largely children who came from “the greatest generation”.
I do think as a nation we should study that “greatest generation” because clearly they were products of the Great Depression. That generation sacrificed tremendously during and after World War II. They promoted the principles of work ethic, thrift, and love of country, faith, and family. In my humble opinion as a nation we do not have enough of those traits. Many make unbelievable sacrifices but many do not. It is pointless and counterproductive to highlight who may sacrifice and who may not. We are one nation.
How do we achieve a growth in those principles and what may come out of it?
I know that Barack Obama and Rahm Emanuel have touched on the idea of a mandatory civil service and/or civil defense. I think they have been delinquent in not offering more details or in being more careful with their wording on this topic. Some have parodied Obama and he deserves it because his wording in this area is fairly cryptic.
I love the idea of a genuine mandatory civil service. (***Hear me out before you think I have lost my marbles) I am all about work ethic, thrift, love of country, family, faith, private sector,and fiscal discipline personally and professionally.
I would propose a private-public partnership where applicable in a mandatory civil service program. I think the idea of a 3 month program is nothing more than a vacation. I think a year is reasonable and impactful. As a father, I think if a year is good, then two years is great.
There are numerous nations around the globe that have mandatory civil service. As the wealthiest nation in the world regrettably we have developed a sense of entitlement and it is very unhealthy.
Please review this wikipedia link to see which nations have and do not have mandatory civil service, both military and non-military.
I would propose a number of options for our population from ages 18-24 which represents approximately 10% of our population. Assuming one year of service we are talking about adding on average 5 million people per year working to support our nation and our economy. The options would include programs like the following (I do not pretend to think that I have all the answers or all the options … please add more ideas)
1. All parts of the military.
2. Student Conservation Association … fabulous organization that just celebrated its 50th anniversary … our family has personal experience … SCA is awesome!!!
3. Knowledge is Power Program … fabulous organization dedicated to working with inner city students …
4. City Year … fabulous program that works with youth primarily in cities around the country …
5. Americorps … program launched during the Clinton administration to promote civil service …
6. Over and above these programs I would look to have a powerful teacher assistance program in all our public schools in order to lower the student-teacher ratios …
7. I would also look to partner with private social programs that are clearly effective and working to help those suffering from drug and alcohol abuse, family issues, at risk youth et al …
8. Provide workers and labor for infrastructure projects …
9 … the possibilities are endless …
In summary, I would hope that through this program as a nation we can break the cycle of entitlement, the polarization of haves vs have nots, the lack of thrift and personal responsibility, and on and on we go.
We will need to do more than implement a program like this to change those trend lines I highlighted above but as far as I can see the status quo is not an option. For those who may think or say that we can’t do this or that it won’t work, I would respond “show me a better option in which we can generate better returns on capital invested, both monetary and human,in the short term and the long term”.
God Bless America!!
LD
***I should have been more explicit in my initial post. I am not saying that people would not be paid for their service. That payment could be in the form of cash, scholarship, et al.***
P.S. I would be remiss not to comment on today’s dramatic price action in the market. I was actually more focused on the Senate Banking Committee meeting with various reps from the large money center banks.
I saw that the Dow was down 300 which prompted me to nudge Susan to post my story from yesterday. At that point the market had a vicious short covering rally. I believe that was largely a function of GWB’s speech cautioning global governments not to interfere excessively in the marketplace going forward and that Congress realizes that they do not have the political will to give GM a quick fix bailout.
Against the backdrop of those two stories I think market participants felt, ‘well perhaps we may just be able to get government out of here so we can go back to work like we used to”.
I will attach links to those two stories.
“Bush Defends Capitalism Ahead of G-20 Summit”
Again, stories like these are great for short covering rallies but the fact remains the direction of our economy is not changed by them.
(List Price: $27.95 - Your Price: $15.47)
By Sarah Palin (Release date: November 17. 2009)
I am totally against compulsory service. As a physician I started my actual career at 31 (4 years of college, 4 of medical school, 4 of residency and a year of fellowship)That is the standard path although a few people take a 3 year residency and many do not take a fellowship. For the middle 4 of those years I worked and studied 80 hours a week with a 2 week break, the next 4 for an average of 100 hours a week due to night call. I don’t think it is reasonable to suggest adding 2 more years to that training schedule for compulsory service. Many focused young people have plans and goals that require an very substantial delayed gratification not to mention the years of no or decreased salary and the debt at the end of the process. This is true for all doctorate level education.
The other point is that we are not all sitting around twiddling our thumbs at 18 but many of us are driven by our dedication to achieve. For many of those National service would be a complete waste of their potential to contribute to society in more significant ways and a disservice to them as individuals. Would you rather have two more years in a physician or engineers career or have those two years with the same person in a soup kitchen? Now add that in the soup kitchen that person loses his skills at study and recently taken subjects so that he cannot proceed to the level of coursework he would have after the service but must spend time refreshing or retaking his last math or chemistry course. The military doesn’t want the draft. The prefer to have volunteers because they get a better group that way. If you want to expand the number of citizens taking part in service programs pay them and let them choose. What gives the government the right to conscript citizens in peace time? I would fight this program to the limits of my resources for my family and for all American families. You can’t change the social fabric of a country by decree and it is only stupid and arrogant people who try.
I appreciate your opinion. If you had spent a year of civil service after graduating from high school and prior to college would it have derailed you from achieving your dreams?
In fact, for many perhaps increased amturity and perspective would lead to greater productivity.
I am all ears for better ideas.
Yes it certainly would have. That is my point. And who are you or anyone else to decide for a person whether a year in National service will help their maturity? You guy have got to stop smoking the opium. Its fine to sit back in your armchairs and foresee how this will change the mindset of all future Americans. The kids that have the drive to excel and have goals will be bored silly. They will hate and resent the coercion and the busy work. The people that run the programs will be crooked and the lazy will milk the system. We will waste large sums of money running the programs and paying the supervisors. Some of the kids will be corrupted and discouraged by realizing how far behind they fall away from study. They will find it easier to settle for a less lofty ambition. It is a truism as a parent that you need to keep kids busy and engaged and using their full energy or trouble ensues. So why not derail these kids and makes them tools in the great workers paradise for awhile. Push their dreams a little further back and see whether they can stomach the climb. A great social experiment you say… I say don’t experiment with my child and don’t experiment with America.
appreciate your opinion…
Amen, J Galt - In a country founded on the concept of personal liberty, with the personal responsibility that comes with that, we should not consider going down these roads.
What LD, and many others, are trying to accomplish is to replace the concepts of personal and familial responsibility with government mandates since we seem to be an ever more irresponsible society. I understand the desire to do this. It seems on the surface to be a “good” thing to do.
I don’t like the fact that kids don’t work as much any more, or have little sense of personal responsibility or accountability to their community or country. But, shoving a government mandate down everyone’s throat in order to attempt to correct a social issue will only end up hindering or hurting the already responsible.
Many young people spend numerous hours in athletics, volunteering with their churches, music, arts or simply helping the family survive by working long hours at a family business (i.e. immigrant family restaurants).
This freedom to choose how to spend one’s time in the pursuit of happiness is a fundamental aspect of the liberty we enjoy in this country. Volunteerism should remain just that…voluntary. What we need is greater involvement from parents to guide their children in the proper use of their time by showing them how it becomes an investment in their future. If you think you can pass a law to improve that, good luck.
The more responsibility we take away from parents in our society, the worse off we will be in the long run. That I can promise.
Could not agree with you more. My child has been participating in community service on a regular basis that is set up by our home school group. We choose when and what type, so that it doesn’t conflict with his complicated class, physical therapy and field trip schedule, which has taken me years to perfect. Now that my child is a teen (and already taking college classes), the last thing I want is the government throwing a monkey wrench into our plans.
The Obama campaign made mindless zombies out of millions of young people during this past year. There is no way in hell I will let them get a hold on my kid.
LD, I love your economy posts, but am strongly opposed to any social engineering, disguised as “community service”, done on children (or adults) by the Obama crowd.
I’m against any compulsory service as well. That said, if proper incentives were given, e.g., reductions or free college tuition for one year for each year of voluntary service, many poor individuals, even potential doctors and scientists, would jump at the chance to serve.
Anyone else hear the news this morning? Hillary is on the short list for Secretary of State. I approve - go Hillary!
Another point: if you make it compulsory, you will get a large percentage of lazy, even criminal individuals, who will not do their part and cause more harm than good. Can you imagine a gang member serving in an inner-city school or shelter?
Screen them accordingly and as need be move people into and/or out of situations that are not working…
Moving people out of situations after they have caused harm (theft, fraud, assault, etc.) is dangerous and inefficient. I remember the compulsory military service during Vietnam; the voluntary military today is vastly superior.
As a path for students who might not otherwise be able to reach their goals and ambition or for those who wish to serve I am all for public service as an volunteer option. However I am for specific projects related to infrastructure or tutoring in schools not for indoctrination as has been suggested by Mr Obama’s chief of staff.
Hear Hear Galt! And Voluntary Service. Well stated Galt!
Since Obama is the one demanding this — I am against it. He wants to “community organize” on a National level.
I have already seen his type of training — the thugs who came to the caucuses — they were put through on of the Obama style training camps.
Obama is someone I DO NOT want anywhere near young people. Look at the monsters he has created.
And now we are to believe that his training camps would be teaching empathy, tolerance and benevolence?
Something like this should be strictly volunteer — with bonuses for serving to the end of the contract. Forced service — without a process to evaluate and eject the bad apples — would be dangerous for the volunteers.
Nope — no way — no how. I’ve seen the Obama camp volunteers — and many belong in jail.
I agree with you, J Galt, that compulsory service is inappropriate. When you force someone to do something, when you take away their choice, you don’t create a positive member of the workforce. There are those young people who do have a dream, a vision, for their life, and taking a year from them so they can perform some type of civil service that they may have no interest in, that will only serve to set back their goal, is counterproductive.
Rather than demanding service, why don’t we inspire young people to want to be of service? JFK established the Peace Corp in 1961, and inspired a generation of people to join and be of service around the world.
Forcing someone to do something does not result in a positive outcome. Inspiring someone to choose to do something will change the world.
LD it worries and sickens me that our next POTUS is not a leader nor a visionary. We need both at this time. How could so many in the country vote for this guy? Thanks to Hillary for speaking up. I hope someone is listening.
Another point. When you go into the military they agree to feed, house, and clothe you.
Is this free? Of course not. In return you agree to live wherever the military should decide to send you and you must adjust to their needs.
All of this costs taxpayer money but military folks pay taxes too so it’s their money as well.
If you require service to the nation then you must be willing to compensate those individuals. I notice one caveat is that those already in college will not be affected.
Bottom line: If you have the money to pay for college your children will not be affected. Some will say it’s being proposed for middle school and high school as well. Again, if you can afford to send your child to private school they’ll be exempt.
How much will all of this “service” cost? No way you can raise taxes on the wealthy, give away money to everyone else, still pay the bills or lower the deficit and balance the budget.
Even the Democrats are ignoring the public outrage at the continuous calls for bailouts.
At this point I’m not sure what’s left to the American public.
I am not saying that people would not be paid for their service. How do we pay for it? Sell bonds and private contributions. I envision that it would cost 75-100bln a year. Some of that would be publicly funded and some privately.
Everybody must participate. No selectivity. No haves get out vs have nots are in.
I realize it is an aggressive move but I just think we need to change the national mindset.
What about the rich kids that won’t be required to participate? It’ll be Vietnam again.
You have enough connections and money you don’t have to go.
Yes, some people from prominent families went. But the vast majority of those in Vietnam were poor and middle class.
Where are we going to get the 75-100 billion dollars with the economy tanking? Heck even Citicorp is saying they’ll be laying off a large number of folks.
We can pay for this and pay our way of this econmic mess too? Even Merril Lynch, one of the few to survive the debacle, take a dim view of our economic prospects.
Socially speaking, do you really want the government telling you or your middle school or high school child when and where they will serve? I wouldn’t. What happens if you say no? ? Where do you draw the line?
Many good points LD. I think that a variety of civil service organizations could be quite functional, with proper design. But as it is in many arenas, the concept and design phases are of utmost importance.
Take the example of product design. If you have a major flaw in a critical component, then the utility of that product can be severely impaired. Concept and design flaws can and do often guarantee system failure.
Look at NCLB for instance. Nice goal, but some severely flawed basic concepts. The design aspect never seemed to incorporate optimization of positive effects, nor minimize the negative.
Again, proper design and adaptability is paramount.
And consider that the failures in our educational system are unparalleled in our brief history.
What does the typical college student today know about what happened at Gettysburg or Valley Forge or Normandy? What do they know of the Delian League or Rome or Constantine? What do they know about watersheds or energy conservation, Solstice or equinox?
Systems failures have causation, and it’s high time we take a systematic approach to solutions…
For clarification, I should add here that I do not support compulsory service in any form.
Please Help Leo Donofrio with his case challenging Obama is not a “natural born citizen.”
As we speak efforts are going on within the Supreme Court to suppress Mr. Donofrio’s document.
Call TODAY!
US Supreme Court Clerk’s Office - 202-479-3011
US Supreme Court, Public Information Office - 202-479-3211
Explain to them you are not pleased at the way they are handling Case #08A407.
It is also important that Justice Clarence Thomas and the rest of the Supreme Court receive direct mail letters (not e-mail)
Include:Case Docket #08A407 and http://www.blogtext.org/naturalborncitizen/ in your letter.
You may write to Justice Thomas at the following address:
The Honorable Associate Justice Clarence Thomas
United States Supreme Court
One First Street, N.E.
Washington, D.C. 20543.
Also write to
Chief Justice Roberts
United States Supreme Court
One First Street, N.E.
Washington, D.C. 20543
Unlike Mr. Berg’s case, Mr. Donofrio’s case has standing. This may be just the case to bring down Obama. Let’s all do what lies in our power to help him win this important court case.
As a child of a Holocost survivor I can’t even begin to express how opposed to any type of mandatory civil service. Period.
wow. got so disturbed I messed that up. I meant I can’t even begin to express how opposed I am to mandatory civil service. sorry about that.
I agree. This is absolutely RIDICULOUS and it shows that people are starting to get used to the Hitler era that’s coming. What a bunch of crap. I know my parents would have told them to F**k off. What are you people THINKING? What’s next? I am violently opposed to walking the streets here and having it feel like Israel. Armed Civilian Militia walking the streets? WHAT THE F**K? This is scaring. I really do think the best thing is for any sane person with brains and money to get the hell out of this Banana Republic and let the nuts once and for all end America. It’s hanging by a thread now, but this stuff is just getting BIZARRE. Bring on the Brown Shirts Hitler.
I agree also. Making any such civil service compulsory, would be bad, and probably even horrible.
LD,
Great article. I think everyone should be required to serve their country for at least one year right out of high school, sooner for drop outs. This would mean even the rich kids, no exception except for the most disabled.
Too many kids out of high school do not know what they want to do with their lives, for those who do, would one year of service out of high school be too much to ask?
The option for two years of service could be offered. Have one year of service to two years of paid education ratio.
The possibilities could be almost endless for this service. Hospitals, nursing homes, landscaping, construction of bridges,roads, buildings or homes etc.
Yup. I don’t think a year of public service would have hurt paris hilton one bit. And what better way for kids to learn we are all in this together.
I think you should serve first, Faith and tell us how it was. Great idea to disrupt a million citizens against their will because it might be good for some.
Thank you!
What part of “America - Land Of The Free” are you people not getting? If everyone wants this government controlled Nazi nonsense…move to Cuba. It’s not going to happen here. 1/2 of this country voted for McCain. They are still the people out there that have some respect for what America means as far as personal freedoms. I bet they (me included) would fight this BS tooth and nail. Ughh….What’s next? Mandatory video surveillance cameras in people’s bedrooms? How far are we going to go to stop people from their free choice? As for mentioning Paris Hilton? Gee, she’s soooo awful. Because she’s rich? Meow. Rich people are always going to exist. Oh well.
That is the very reason I oppose it.
Read through the comments that disagree with this mandatory service and all of them had some good points.
This is something I have thought about for a long time. I remember the draft of the 60’s and only the poor and lower middle class had no escape, that’s why I said everyone, including the rich. I’m not against the rich, it’s just that I saw the unfairness of the Vietnam war suck up those who could not afford to be in college as a deferment against being drafted. Two of my brothers were in that situation.
I do agree with the suggestion about keeping it local. That’s where the need for service would be clearest seen and have the greatest impact. The idea of federal “brown shirts” scares me too and that was a part that I had not thought of before this election. I just wanted a way for the youth to have the opportunity to give back to their country and be able to get some help in getting an education.
I didn’t know that we are a communist country!
This is exactly what China did during the Cultural Revolution. They send youth away to work in the country side in the name of serving their country. The end result was the lost of an entire generation of youth in education, family structure and skill workers.
All through US history, the class warfare was centered on exactly that. The rich will always find way to get out of those service with their connection and abilities to buy influence. The poor will be doing all the hard work and get screwed. Through out slavery, indenture servent, tenants, farm labor and union struggle, the one theme the ruling class always use is patriotism. They can easily justify everything by telling everyone that it’s for the good of the country. In fact, even Lincoln had intended to let the South keep their way of slavery if they had returned to the Union. It is only afer the South had refuse to come back to the Union that Lincoln sign the proclaimation. Are you seriously proposing to return to those times?
Anyone who sacrifice a little freedom for security(or whatever) deserve neither!
I served in the military because I choose to. Would you like to be the first to be send to Iraq? It’s a good idea to have VOLUNTEER civil service inexchange for some kind of compensation, but force them to, totally against everything this country stand for.
Requiring every American youth to do community service for one or two years after high school, is DICTATORSHIP !!!
Voluntary service with compensation or community college credits, sound democratic.
No ACORN style of community service, PLEASE!!!
I don’t know about you all, but I am torn.
Do we want HRC as SOS or Sec of Treasury? Maybe she should do both and then run healthcare too on weekends. She can handle it.
I am always wrong but I can’t believe Hillary would be picked for SoS or SoT or any high level position. She would run rings around obama and be a constant reminder the dnc picked the wrong candidate. But I am always wrong so…
Thank you LD. Exellent post!!
I agree 100% on all your points about TARP not working and why throwing more money at everything won’t work. Because we burn through our safty net (of savings) along time ago.
I agree
I agree 100% on mandatory civil service - the military side being optional. I also agree 2 years, because of time need to train and gain proficiency etc. May I add that I would not necessarily limit service to 18-24. There are many retirees that could make huge contributions knowledge wise in the final year or two before they retire and receive social security.
Why? Because we need to collectively focus on nation building
1) It will allow us to invest heavily in the infrastructure (roads, bridges, institutions) and other projects that we need to move forward as a country and prosper.
2) As a country we would be forced to work together towards a common good.
I would add is that we need - no must have - is universal medical care - not insurace for all americans. Maybe that is the way to sell the mandatory civil service.
Finally - no truer words have been spoken then -
Great idea. Mandatory government health care has failed miserably in all the countries that have tried it, think rationed care, 5 year waits for total hip replacements, 5 MRI in the whole of Canada up until very recently. Think that premature babies are routinely transferred to the US because Canada has no beds for them, to this day. Think that 15 years ago there were no mammography machine in Canada, they used modifies chest XRay machines and untrained physicians to read them and then published papers saying there was no benefit to mamography. All the American co authors resigned in protest.
If you want to conclusively break the back of the American Health care system that is a great way to do it. I agree we should definitely start by mandatory service of retirees. Great idea. Lets say they have to serve two years or maybe three before they are entitled to Social Security. What part about freedom of choice are you missing. Where in the Constitution does it say you have a right to compel service from anyone. If you love those ideas so much why don’t you move to a country with that form of Government and stop trying to take over America.
Hear hear! WTF is going on around here? Wow. All I hear is jealousy over and over about “rich kids.” Well I am one of them. I went to USC at the age of 15. My parents paid for it. How? They went to college and WORKED FOR IT. That’s what AMERICA IS. All of this crap of making everyone equal is disgusting. You want college and college for your kids? Work for it. Period. Stop this Nazi nonsense of destroying people’s free will. Wow….just…wow…This is terrifying to me.
I totally agree with you, Obama IAT.
My parents worked hard till the youngest of my siblings finished college.I am proud to say that all of us earned our college degrees and have nice career thru my parent’s sweat.Our children are all college graduate too. BECAUSE WE WORK HARD, an example is handed down to the next generation in our family.
You want to advance your life style? Work for it !
When we had a compulsory draft and it sort of worked, because most people had more ingrained patriotism than we do now, it was backed up by a childhood of patriotism; pledge of allegiance daily, 4th of July displays of fervor, etc. It was a cultural thing. Then came Viet Nam and the organized protesters. Then some of those guys got into the mainstream and we went all PC in education. Then it wasn’t such a big deal to go against the compulsory service. You aren’t going to throw compulsory service per se at the current crop of kids, or even their parents, with any success at all, even giving a choice. When 9/11 happened there was a big resurgence of patriotism, feelings and demonstrations that had become a thing of the past. Now we’ve had 7 years of Bush and all that went along with the war on terror, and the recent election is said to be a referendum against Bush. That is also a referendum against nationalism, and I don’t think you are going to get any happy solution in the compulsory area without that nationalistic spirit.
That’s what you really want, is the spirit. Focus on that and get realistic about how much it will make people loyal to the country to force them into some niche for a year or two. The military works better now because the members are there because they believe in it.
How can you have patriotic spirit when your “leader” is the one that hates America, the Flag, the Constitution, etc.? You will never see Obama leading this nation in patriotism towards what “America” is. You will have his “New World Order” nonsense. But it won’t be patriotism like JFK patriotism. That part of America is gone for good.
Exactly, and exactly why it would be a really bad idea to start some new compulsory service right now, it would only feed a selfish, anti-American administration. And, it would be way too handy for future imperialism too, like taking out Iran, say.
Ughhh…I feel like I’m on another planet. I didn’t think this would happen. I knew the OVomit supporters would go for all the crazy Nazi stuff. But the people here? Wow. And I keep hearing people trashing “rick kids.” This is part of the stuff that is tanking this country. Hatred of anyone with money. Guess what? America was founded on the principles that if you work hard you TOO can have money. Instead these people just whine that others have money. Wow are we going to hell but fast. How sad.
No sane person would allow the government to set up and control millions of brown-shirt community organizing youths. Their minds are so malleable that they can be made to believe their leader is some kind of deity.
Oh wait, that already happened. Now Obama was to put them to work for the good of the country.
No thanks, keep the change
Well said. Obama has ignited class warfare. Any rich person needs to pay with their blood. Take their kids and put them in community service camps.
Get in their face. No mandatory government run re-education camps.
Finally - no truer words have been spoken then
I’m tired of the people who hate the rich. Where would they be getting their JOBS? And if these freaks keep killing America’s entrepreneurial spirit, then where do we get people like Steve Job or Bill Gates? We all know what group is doing it. Of course I can’t say it here because I will get bashed. But the “L” word is getting very, very scary. And destructive to America.
Could I just donate both my kidneys and be done with it?
This compulsory service sounds like a re-education camp straight out of Rules for Radicals.
ROFLMAO Winston. I needed some humor. This thread has deeply and profoundly disturbed me. I will NEVER let my family do any of this nonsense. It’s worthless, will never work, and it’s a direct violation of personal freedoms. Nasty.
Just curious…Did you change your screen name
LOL - Yeah it auto-posted it and I didn’t notice. I’m here Moss.
Between reading your posts and running this plant I’m also here.
Great to be back home!
Glad you’re back handsome.
We could take the developing fetus out of the womb and place them in incubation chambers where their body energy could be harvested for the betterment of the state. This would solve the energy crisis. Who needs inflated tires.
Once they mature they can given ritalin to CALM THEIR NERVES while they undergo programming to make them competent for mandatory civil service. The term of service will be decided by the Ministry of Love a branch of the New World Government.
We know that politicians always make better decisions for us than we can make for ourselves; once they know our thoughts.
I’s time for the matrix, we even have the ONE. LOL.
>>> Why? Because we need to collectively focus on nation building
Screw that. I gave 1969-1970 already, Thank You Very Much.
With all due respect, I’m totally against “compulsory” service. The three month plan currently being floated around sounds like nothing more than indoctrination, while the one year to two year plan sounds unnecessarily burdensome and costly to administer, and potentially counterproductive.
My hope for all of my children is that they get advanced degrees, although obviously the choice will be theirs. If 1 or 2 years of mandatory service is added to the 6 to 8 years of schooling, they’ll be in their mid to late twenties before they even begin their officials careers.
Now, in case this sounds selfish, I would like to point out that we are a family that already volunteers our time in the public schools, for sports teams and scouting. My children participate in service projects for the community as well. (And, there are many, many families who do much more than we do, and others who don’t do as much, and some who I wouldn’t want to see working with children or the elderly.)
As a mother, I have a hunch I’m better suited as a school volunteer than an 18 year old who would rather be anywhere else than an elementary school (or a middle school, or high school), and who might know virtually nothing about child development. In the past, I’ve had to undergo background checks and even get a TB clearance to volunteer with some organizations.
I can’t help but wonder about the administrative burdens and screenings that would be necessary for those young adults sent to work in health services and with children. As a parent, I’m not sure if I would be comfortable with all of the young individuals “forced” to work in my community.
Additionally, in the past we’ve paid neighborhood teens to help with projects around the house and yard and to babysit, and some were wonderful while others were worth paying to stay away. Seems like the “compulsory” part is going to end up forcing some ill suited and ill prepared young people on organizations that may end up trying to place them where they’ll have the least possible negative impact.
In general, the idea of service is great. My only problems are with the compulsory and indoctrination parts. I do respect that others may disagree with me.
This won’t work. It sounds like it would but, I saw this in action in Canada where kids can’t graduate without mandatory volunteer work. What happened was that the kids with problems and the have nots ALWAYS paid a much higher price for this extra work. The kids with all the support, love and money at home and at school did the volunteer work no sweat off their noses. Those in single parent homes who had part time jobs, those with learning disabilities already pressed for time to do well in school AND get to tutoring, those with ANY disadvantage at all struggled to meet the requirement. It punishes many who really cannot spare the time or energy.
I saw one kid who was babysitting his younger brother, taking care of his household and trying to make decent grades really get the shaft due to this policy. His mom had cancer and he really needed to be with her rather than working elsewhere in order to get his diploma. It didn’t matter if you made straight A’s. No volunteer work, no diploma.
The problem with making something mandatory like this for EVERYONE is that it assumes uniformity in everyone’s situation. In theory, I like the idea and the ideals this represents but, logistically it really is a nightmare. I haven’t even mentioned the fact that volunteer organizations have requirements that many cannot meet.
The young people who would most benefit from the scholarships provided by this work are the ones who would have the most trouble doing it at all. Sticky situation.
You are right. We don’t need people making very crucial decisions for us and putting roadblocks in our way in the process. A one size fits all solution won’t work no matter how well intentioned. The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions. A mandatory service requirement would cause chaos and hardship and further polarize our Nation. What a scientist learns early on is that you can have a theory and work very hard ironing out the wrinkles but when you get out of your armchair and try it out in real life you are sure to get surprises. Sometimes you get completely shot down. Alice Paul’s comments are so true and are just one example of the dislocations when governments monkeys with people’s lives. Good change comes from the community level and is small enough that it can be adjusted when theories don’t mesh perfectly with reality. At a level where there is little or no infrastructure cost because people are helping because they care. Why not get the government to partner with communities, that have stated goals and give them some funds to get kids involved in prjects with definable short term goals where supplies and work are paid for and but supervising is free and the project must have time defined goals that must be met before the next payout?
LD, thank you for your thoughtful and informative articles — and for letting me know about the great organizations for young people that exist today. During my decades teaching college students, I ached for some kind of community discipline and community ideals for them. I did not like Nixon ending the draft because I believed that when huge numbers of middle-class kids served in the military — along with the involvement of their concerned parents — the missions and ideals of the military would always be under discussion in a democracy.
Today, I think we have a fantastically prepared military and those who enlist are committed for a variety of personal reasons. In other words, I might have changed my mind about “compulsory” service. Furthermore, planners might say that everyone, rich and poor, well-placed and everyday-Joes and Janes, will receive the same treatment. That will never, never, never, never, etc. happen. Power speaks and there always are too many ways to game any system.
Again, upon first reading, I love, truly love, your ideas about service. They echo my beliefs. However, I think the situation is different today. With a mass society there is too much of a possibility to create new “brown shirts” as many Obama-backers and Obama life-long friends have wanted. Today, I think there should be many attractive possibilities, with some kind of return, like in the military (training, discipline, payment, passion in the service of an ideal and a community), and with recruitment drives permitted in all high schools and colleges. (Absolutely no possibility of exclusion as happened to the military on some campuses).
This idea is akin to that of James Madison who knew that absolute power corrupts absolutely and argued for equally significant and attractive competitive entities. The more the better. Compulsory service is for global wartime; diversity of service is for vibrant capitalism — even if temporarily tarnished — and democracy.
I totally disagree with mandatory service!
My grand-daughters are very active in their youth ministry, community, sports, and are honor roll students.
They have learned, in the home, the value of charity and service…and that is where we believe it should be taught!
My values are not reflected in D.C. and certainly not now!
Sassy - I posted something similar above. You make a good point. Nowhere in any of the compulsory “community service” plans that I have seen from Obama or anyone includes credit for volunteering in church or other religious related activities.
If my daughter helps build homes in New Orleans as part of a church youth group, would she get credit? Obama’s plans for mandatory middle/high school and the college tax credit never mention any church related time as examples.
I certainly doubt these activities, no matter how useful to our society, will be allowed to be used.
Hillary as SOS so does not mean now that Obama does not mind if Hillary answers that 3 .am call?
This sounds like communism to me. What happened to land of the FREE and home of the brave? Slavery was abolished in 1865 thank you.
I am against mandatory service, it reminds me too much of the Hitler youth groups. Hitler said he did not need the adults, when he had their children to brainwash. Get them young enough and anyone can bring them up the way they want too, including our government and the parents will have no say.
I think we can peacefully protest this by telling our children to stay home or refusing to join under any circumstances. Are they going to arrest all of us?
Val…As another poster here said…”Obama is going to have to pry my freedoms out of my cold, dead hands.” And shame on the people here who are pushing this nonsense. Every day we get a step closer (wait until January 20th comes and goes) to losing any of our rights and freedoms. This nonsense is a big step in that direction.
Without counting I’d say the vote is against compulsory service so far. Here’s an idea. Why was it proposed? to make the nation stronger, to make people more patriotic. Is it going to work to throw it at adults who never grew up with that idea? No! They will resist it like a new tax.
So, back to the drawing board–join the PTA–Get into youth programs–attend a church or other philosophical group. Do what the WU did and “bore from within.” This state of affairs came about over years of input from people like Ayers. It will be reversed by bringing children up differently.
Sorry to sound like a hard-righter, but short of a clear and present danger, it’s how minds are changed. LD, as a father you admire the idea of teaching your children, you are mixing up making little children learn by doing right with big people unlearning by being forced.
I have to cast my vote in the no category on mandatory service. I have worked in the community setting for many years, and I think volunteer service is fantastic. But, when we start mandating anything like this, we give way too much of our personal freedom away - and it will open the door to more erosion.
Perhaps if I had more faith in our president-elect, I might feel differently, but doubtful.
In addition, programs like City Year have many faults - often they do not address the immediate needs of the community and fall short in their brush stroke approach to care and service. I just returned from a meeting today when a very enthusiastic community leader shared her concern for the work of City Year because they failed to honor the local community vision. Not to generalize, but I think it’s an important point.
I am all for giving back to the community, and I think young people benefit from this experience (I work with youth now), but it should never be mandated by our federal government.
Long story short, in the context of our new administration, it kind of creeps me out.
Well, I guess tomorrow’s thread will be about how Nancy Pelosi is a genius for the Fairness Doctrine and everyone here will post that it’s a “great idea” to destroy the 1st Amendment and FREE SPEECH.
Then over the weekend we will get a thread about why we should abolish the vote and just let Nancy Pelosi “select” our Presidents from here on out? Who needs that pesky right to vote? And, after all, only rich people benefit, right?
On Monday maybe the thread should be about why MANDATORY ABORTIONS should be performed on those like Sarah Palin who had the nerve to give birth to a less than perfect baby.
Tuesday we can have a thread about why we should all pool our cars, homes, assets, sell them and donate them to the Obama “Spread the Wealth Fund.” Even though the wealth he will be spreading is to Africa.
We’re on a really slippery slope here.
‘Voluntary’ military is not exact. A person going through the legal system can be given the option of going to jail or entering the military. That choice qualifies as compulsory.
In CA, high schoolers already have mandatory community service to graduate. The hours aren’t enough to knock the truly self-entitled ones off their thrones. The elite lie for their children and pretend they are providing service for another.
I think those that judge others as the dreck of society not sufficient to serve along side other, would benefit best from service. ‘Ewwwww, that job isn’t good enough for ME, and ewww, I don’t want to work next to THAT person’ or even better the parents who think their child is too good to serve against those icky working class/poor children.
There are such a broad range of opportunities to serve, only those that feel they are too good don’t want too. It’s also a great way for young people to build a resume. Really is doing environmental work, like beach clean-up going to kill you? Apparently many feel they would experience an emotional death, oh the angst of it all.
I DID all of those things in high school. My very elite (sorry everyone’s jealous) high school had a lot of programs to join to help the community. We all did it VOLUNTARILY because that was how we were raised. Certain decent segments of this society still raise their children with VALUES - VALUES that INCLUDE volunteering. I was a Candystriper, a Youth Emergency Service Suicide Hotline Counselor, Youth Camp Counselor, etc. I still give my time. THAT’S MY CHOICE. No one is going to tell MY child (other than ME) what to do. And, yes, THE HORRORS OF IT ALL. Some people don’t NEED the government to step in and tell them what the right thing to do is. We get it. Giving to the community is way better if it’s voluntary. It makes one feel good to do it. If it’s mandatory it will take away the spirit of giving back. PERIOD.
I also went to an “elite” HS (tho I was poor, so I didn’t do the deb stuff) and we had so many similar programs–and it was a cultural value to volunteer. The more activities, the better. That’s how I grew up, but I wonder how true it is now. There are carrots in volunteer programs–looks good on your college admissions, for instance. Network by making new friends. Get a little food back for working in a food bank. It builds self esteem much more than completing a requirement, too.
Are you a nut? You want to teach people a lesson, rub their noses in something and you think that is something you could or should mandate.
People learn respect by being treated with respect. Respect people’s freedom of choice so that they can respect yours. I’m sorry you feel you were judged unfairly. Seek out those that respect you for who you are. Work or volunteer to help others and you will earn respect. Work hard towards a goal that allows you to contribute to society. Teach your children by example to ignore fashion’s dictates about who is important and what a true hero is. That is how you make a difference by example. Not by mandate. Remember many young people do not need or desire your help in chartering their course or creating a resume. Save it for those that do.
Sorry this comment was a reply to Waldenpond but didn’t wind up below it. I was responding to the idea that the point was that people were to elite to serve. I find that a truly offensive cop out. Everyone gets to chose what they want to do to make a difference. The more opportunities that are presented to make a positive contribution the better but it needs to be voluntary and it needs to spring from what a person feels is right. There is nothing wrong with some reward in the manner of looking good on an application or counting towards tuition because that may allow more people to have the resources to step up to the plate.
I get what you meant J Galt. It’s a very sad state of affairs in this country that there is so much hatred towards people who worked hard to follow their dreams, made some money, live a good life, etc. America was founded on the “pursuit of happiness,” but the angry, bitter and jealous want to drag people down and take away their freedoms as punishment for their success. I pray to God that EVERY person with money and corporations, etc. in this country LEAVE and take their wealth and businesses elsewhere. Then the bitter, angry folks can look at each other with glee and share their misery. When did it become a crime to be successful?
J Galt, I replied to you way above, but I thought I would throw this comment downthread again as it is still relevent to this discussion:
In a country founded on the concept of personal liberty, with the personal responsibility that comes with that, we should not consider going down these roads.
What LD, and many others, are trying to accomplish is to replace the concepts of personal and familial responsibility with government mandates since we seem to be an ever more irresponsible society. I understand the desire to do this. It seems on the surface to be a “good” thing to do.
I don’t like the fact that kids don’t work as much any more, or have little sense of personal responsibility or accountability to their community or country. But, shoving a government mandate down everyone’s throat in order to attempt to correct a social issue will only end up hindering or hurting the already responsible.
Many young people spend numerous hours in athletics, volunteering with their churches, music, arts or simply helping the family survive by working long hours at a family business (i.e. immigrant family restaurants).
This freedom to choose how to spend one’s time in the pursuit of happiness is a fundamental aspect of the liberty we enjoy in this country. Volunteerism should remain just that…voluntary. What we need is greater involvement from parents to guide their children in the proper use of their time by showing them how it becomes an investment in their future. If you think you can pass a law to improve that, good luck.
The more responsibility we take away from parents in our society, the worse off we will be in the long run. That I can promise.
I agree completely. Thank you for your response.
Great comments Right on the Left Coast, I agree with you. I have three teenage children. All three of them spend volunteer time working in different programs at the public library. These are activities that they chose for themselves and they enjoy the time they spend.
I disagree about compulsary volunteer service. The last few presidents have suggested that they would provide financial funding for this type of program, yet it has never materialized. Raising three children, believe me the help in paying for college after doing volunteer work for two years in the school system would have been a godsend when I returned to get my degree 4 years ago. Why promise something that probably would never happen and jade the kids opinions before they are really paying taxes?
Seriously though, I agree, some students do seem to have nothing better to do than hang around often finding trouble. That is not the job of the government to correct. I have also seen evidence that these same kids will find ways to allow for the workers to carry the load for them. Other students however, work hard on schooling, volunteer and participate in activities that could advance their opportunities in obtaining higher education. The thing is, this is the American way. The land of opportunity simply provides the opportunity. It does not have to walk up and hit everyone over the head with the chances to make a better life for themselves.
One or two other points here. William Ayers educational plans included many of the same type of organized service and Barack Obama bought into and worked with Ayers on funding these ideas. They failed badly in increasing the level of improvement in the Chicago school system. Yes, Obama himself did climb the rungs of community service to the white house, but how many of us really like what ACORN and other groups like them have achieved? Good Heavens, I remember reading just the other day how much the UAW is disliked because of the power they have held. ACORN is no different and has apparently achieved nothing less than influencing a presidential election. I should think we would want to end that type of organized community service, not indoctrinate more children into it!
OK, once I got done laughing at this….
Are you a nut? …People learn respect by being treated with respect.
——————————————–
decided to respond. Although, having read some here, know it’s futile. The writers here are good, the commenters inflexible.
All do not have the connections nor access to volunteer. Some may not be able to afford a bus ticket to get to a place to volunteer.
I was never ‘judged’ unfairly, whatever that means. I had the ability to get to the library, the animal shelter and a daycare to volunteer.
I don’t propose rubbing anyone’s nose in anything. You had opportunity? Well, big friggin’ whoop-dee-doo. So did I.
Some lauding their own skills, feel that those that don’t have the connections do not have the equal skill.
Some erroneously feel those that don’t have access don’t give a sh!t. Some lauding the opportunites given them by their families have no respect for those that are trying to be successful despite not having families that can provide access.
Try looking at it this way (before you call someone a nutjob and then spout off about treating others with respect, sniff, my feelings are so hurt. Talk about a pathetic cop-out)….
Education is MANDATORY in this country. Why? This culture believes it is important to learn the history of the country and develop a shared experience, develop skills to navigate a complicated society, take advantage of opportunity and be successful.
The majority of this county want it MANDATORY that immigrants learn English. Why? It’s part of a national identity, a shared experience and a necessity to be successful in this country.
So why should service be mandatory? How about a shared sense of community broader than your own backyard. Gee, what a thought.
But another way to put Mandatory service is Communism. Are you sure Socialism is what’s best for this country?
From Waldenpond
“I think those that judge others as the dreck of society not sufficient to serve along side other, would benefit best from service. ‘Ewwwww, that job isn’t good enough for ME, and ewww, I don’t want to work next to THAT person’ or even better the parents who think their child is too good to serve against those icky working class/poor children.
There are such a broad range of opportunities to serve, only those that feel they are too good don’t want too. It’s also a great way for young people to build a resume. Really is doing environmental work, like beach clean-up going to kill you? Apparently many feel they would experience an emotional death, oh the angst of it all.”
I guess you forgot about this part of your comment, Waldenpond.
The part where you implied that not wanting to do mandatory community service is because its icky or beneath you. That is the part I responded to. Where do you come out of left field with this kind of comment? Is that why you think we don’t want to be told how to spend 1-2 years of our lives? If it was with a better class of people we would sign up? Emotional death???
Get a life. The problem is that people that already have a life and have plans are not just sitting around waiting to be given something to do that won’t “kill us”. We are not game markers sitting around waiting to be placed where the great ones think we should be placed to learn what they think we should learn. This is America and we hold freedom to be self evident:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
As was said previously you can pry these freedoms from my cold dead hands. If your comment was not because of wrongs done to you than I have even less respect for you since you so disparage your fellow men without cause. Who are you to pass judgment on why people don’t want to be forced to give a year or two of their lives?
I do not think anyone is protesting against volunteer work, in fact; I highly recommmend it. However, there is a difference between volunteering and mandatory service. I object to mandatory service.
The TARP bailout/rescue plan proposed to date has not inspired confidence nor generated any real impact
According to the folks on Wall Street, TARP is a TURD.
With his church youth group, my son helped Habitat build a couple of homes for low-income families. For years each summer, he and his high-school buddies (all of whom have enlisted in the military as he did) assisted a university-based group in their program to clean up the homes and yards of the elderly and handicapped, to retrofit homes with wheelchair ramps and other handicapped access equipment. My wife and I have done similar work through her church group. We regular contribute to and have done some promotional work for a local group that helps get kids off the street and out of gangs. My son joined the Marines and blew out his knees in training, which resulted in a lot of pain and some permanent loss of function for him, big medical bills for us.
We have volunteered, consistently, without a quibble, throughout our lives. We’re giving, not taking. A government program (supposed mouse designed by a committee; result: an obese, non-functional elephant) of compulsory service would have gotten less out of all of us, would no doubt have wasted much of our efforts, and would have taken a 50% “administration fee” right off the top of the tax dollars devoted to the program. Plus, the only compulsory service that is Constitutional, IMHO, is a military draft in time of war, and then only when absolutely necessary.
As the Jefferson administration said to the Barbary pirates, “Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute!”
Interesting analysis. Much to chew on. Thanks.
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I truly appreciate the genuine sincerity of people’s feelings n this topic. I also genuinely believe that for the well being of our country that there needs to be SERIOUS change in the national mindset. The road to hell may be paved with good intentions but the road to hell is definitely paved with excessive debt, high dropout rates, and little family structure.
I can appreciate that many may not like the concept of a mandatory civil service.
In the spirit of continuing the conversation, perhaps you can share with me and the community what your best ideas are to address the topics (savings, debt, dropout rate, etc…) highlighted.
I think that those issues are not amenable to change from without only from within. People should not have been encouraged or allowed to commit to mortgages they could not be expected to pay off. That was done when well meaning or self serving lawmakers pushed banks to lend to people who were not qualified in the guise of equal opportunity. The banks were threatened with discrimination suits to force them to comply. Government intervention perverted the banking and mortgage system and started the rot at that point. Senators and congress people refused to allow the problems to be addressed becuase they wanted to promote their social agenda. Get the government out of mortgage and allow banks to grant mortgages based on objective criterion regardless of race.
People should not have been encouraged to have more children out of wedlock because by doing so they gamed the welfare system. The governments approach to welfare has damaged the people that it was supposed to serve by keeping them dependent and forcing them to play a destructive game to get privileges and larger quarters rather than truly rewarding independence and ambition.
The public school system is corrupt and filled with union employees who do not have the children’s interest at heart. The ones that do care are hamstrung by the liberal agenda so they cannot control their classrooms and demand respect. We need to allow vouchers and stop supporting a swollen nonfunctional bureaucracy. If the government stacks the deck in favor of citizen’s efforts to support themselves and improve their own lots the situations you have referred to will improve. If there is meaningful tax reform and cut of government bloat businesses will thrive and American ingenuity will allow participation in the American dream for all who are capable of reaching out for it.
I concur on each of those points. That said, I think the bureaucracy embedded in Washington and our local governments (honestly IMO, most politicians aren’t that smart) is so deep that those changes will come slowly, at the margin, and that the trendlines on all these issues will continue.
Those trends not only need to slowed but they need to be reversed.
Thus, I appreciate your thoughts and ideas and I share them. I am merely at the point where I think we need to effect those changes and more simply because I think the problems are so bad.
Thanks.
I appreciate your passion for change but you don’t fix problems by throwing money or 18-24 year olds at them. You only create more problems. We need to become more honest in our society about calling a spade a spade and admitting that life isn’t fair, just or equal.
That said we can try and make sure everyone has a chance to shine and make of their life what they will. They have to acknowledge that it is their life and their responsibility and that it may take work to get to their goals. We can make sure that every child is fed and has a school where he/she can learn but it will take freedom of choice to make that happen. Only when parents can chose the school that they believe their child will have the best education will schools be truly accountable. Let parents vote with their feet. When education is a contract between the parents, school and child the next generation will have the tools to be anything they want to be.
That would be my priority. We spend more money per capita on schools then in the history of this nation and more than any other nation and we have poorer results. Stop throwing money, stop trying to manage from Washington and Trenton(name your state capitol) and let private enterprise and parents free to attack the problem. I would rather try to elect lawmakers that are pragmatic and accountable then build a whole new bureaucracy pretending that uninterested coerced young people will solve all our problems.
This is a link to someone who reached out to others because she knew a little of what they suffered and has made the world a better place. Her story and their stories are part of America’s fabric and of what a person can do when they want to make a difference. Maybe by visiting the site you will make a difference.
Because you can chose to not because it was mandated.
http://www.4pawsforability.org/ben.html
Thanks for the link to Ben’s story. It is very moving. Our country needs more of that.
I also agree that our education system is deeply flawed. While there are instances of progress overall the bureaucracy and educational administration along with dysfunctional families are “killing” us.
Your points are very well written and I thank you for sharing them.