What Israel Should Have Done
By Larry Johnson on January 2, 2009 at 5:28 PM in Current Affairs
Yes, I’m beating a dead horse but it is for a good purpose. Israel’s image is taking a beating with each passing day and it is not a positive make over. So let’s review the bidding:
Point Number One–Israel is not required to sit and do nothing while Hamas launches rockets, mortars (hell, even rocks) against Israel.
Point Number Two–Israel has every right to destroy the rockets and those firing them.
Yep, because I believe this I’m an anti-semite who hates Jews. Right?
If you don’t understand sarcasm you should not read or visit this blog. And I mean ever!!!
So here is what Israel should have done:
Filed a complaint with the United Nations/National Security Council after every rocket launch.
Deployed counter battery units with international observes and members of the media to establish that Israel is retaliating only against specific rocket/mortar sites. Israel would fire counter battery at every source for a rocket/missile. This is called “proportionate” response. Now, if those Hamas rockets were causing significant Israeli casualties–let’s say 50% of the rockets killed or wounded someone–then you could make a case to escalate the Israeli response.
Promoted internationally supervised aid/healthcare missions. Yes, a hearts and mind campaign. Ensure that Israel and the Palestinians cooperating with her are the source for food and medical care. As it stands now, Hamas is that source.
There is no guarantee that this would eliminate the Hamas threat but this approach does one thing that the current approach does not–it gives Israel the moral high ground and makes it easier to build world opinion against Hamas. Nope, why do that. Israel prefers its foolish and ineffective macho routine. They set their hair on fire, use a hammer to extinguish the flame, and then complain about the headache. There are some other options.
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Thank you Mr. Johnson,
for your expressions. I wish the Isreali politicians could understand how difficult they make it for those of us who support their country to justify their actions. They seem to consistantly play into the hands of their opposition. They are not very good chess players. Pity civilians always have to pay the high price for politicians decisions.
I’m totally tired of the “Israel is the victim”
BS running through the discourse of the I/P crisis.
Just how much killing does a “victim” have to do until they become labelled the aggressor?
Also tiring is the “everybody hates Israel. All the international community always blames Israel for defending itself because they are all anti-semites”.
Really? All these countries calling for Israel to stop, calling for cease fire on both sides, calling for Israel to let in humanitarian aid? All of these countries are “anti- semetic”? ALL?
I mean that is near delusional, isn’t it?
And Israel’s own Supreme Court has said it must let in the international press. Israel isn’t letting that happen. Surely, by the logic of those who
label any criticism of Israel’s action regarding the Palestinians and Israel’s handling of this crisis– surely that means that the Israeli supreme court is also anti-semetic and anti-Israel?
Enough of the victim mentality with Israel, please.
Israel is a big person now and must be held responsible for its actions. Just like everybody else.
This IS what Israel used to do, and WHY so many of us supported them: WTH happened?
1. It didn’t work. The wildly liberal and deranged media made them out to be the bad guys anyway; hence your opinion and the constant use of the words “Israeli Neocons”.
2. They got fed up. See #1.
3. Continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result is insane.
juliet, it is out today that 78% of americans think the media has a large part in the finanical crisis. they love printing and hyping any negative bull they can find hence more fear. so they think they have a victim in gaza they can hype. ratings ratings ratings!
Stodgie -
I appreciate your insight as usual.
And 4. With Obama as POTUS the disaster is in the air. Israel doesn’t trust Obamba
This is a direct attack on Obama — and HE is silent.
Yeah,
He sure is SILENT - Where the HELL is the so called leadership?
Silence in Bambi’s case is aquiesence as we learned about the constant misogyny in 2008!
Yep—completely agree with this, Larry. Thank you always, for your seasoned and experienced opinions. Gaza/Israel conflict is a situation filled with complexities and it is refreshing to read your recommendations to help sort them all out.
Hamas gained a lot of popularity in Gaza because of their supposed “humanitarian” actions, building roads and schools, feeding and housing Palestinians, etc., but it seems they have undermined their “popularity” because they have jeopardized the safety of those who live on the Gaza strip. Israel should have acknowledged their popularity, the progress made, etc. and could have taken the route suggested by you. But the fact that Hamas did jeopardize those living in Gaza by firing rockets from densely populated areas seems like self-sabotage also—very, very unfortunate. Israel did have other options, which need to be explored and implemented, per your suggestions.
It will be interesting to see how Hillary handles this as SOS—-I’m sure she must be at work on strategizing our approach now. At least she’s not golfing.
If you asked my opinion, Hamas is following orders from Tel Aviv, and given the long standing relationship that Hamas and Mossad had through the 1980s and 1990s, including attacking and harassing all Hamas’ rivals, you just have to wonder if this is just a Mutt and Jeff routine.
It’s just too much of a coincidence that each is so willingly providing propaganda for the other.
Fool me once, shame on me.
Fool me twice, shame on you.
yup all this bruahhaha came up suddently didn’t it just about the time obama is supposed to be sworn in. hmmmmm!
Step right up folks!
3 card monte/take your eye off the ball/nothing to see over here/don’t look behind the curtain…
Yep. We’re the suckers. Again.
They don’t want to stop their looting and pillaging.
Just pay taxes! Just throw money!
Change my ass. Please!
I have an entirely different take on the middle east. Mind you I have been wrong before. The time I thought I was wrong but I was in fact right.
Uno - The press which I personally feel takes any press release as gospel, tends to now view the Israeli Palestinian situation as individual incidents. The modern press does not like this thing called history or stories without closure. So when this current episode ends they’ll wash their hands of it, declare it over and move on to the next big story from Brangelina.
But this is a never ending tale that began in 1945. Actually it began almost 2000 years ago when my people were thrown out of their homeland to begin the great diaspora. Some of those ancestors ended up on an island west of England and brought with them the red hair which had distinguished the Hebrews. But this is not about Ireland.
Or is it. Ireland, Israel, Pakistan, Kashmir, Egypt all have something in common. The former lords from London who were quite shitty at drawing maps and making new countries. Those idiots must have thought, “here’s the border we’ve drawn. You play polo on that side and you there, you can play cricket on the other side”. “Play nice and remember all the good we’ve tried to teach you about fair government through intimidation, torture, respect for the Queen and being jolly good to each other.”
Dos - It is not the same as Ireland. The only similarity is that it was caused by the dumb ass British. Henry deciding that a bunch of heathen Scots should be plopped down on Irish land was not a brilliant move. Yes that is like settling the Jews in Palestine and telling the locals to get out. But the big difference is that it is and was the historical homeland for the Jews and never was a home for the Palestinians. The nomadic people of that region never had homelands. They camped where the boss said to until things changed with the discovery of Oil. When Oil came, all these sheiks made like musical chairs and rushed to grab a piece of the pie. Unfortunately, some were as dumb as Moses and headed for the one place without any Oil.
Is my history correct? Probably not but I like it.
Tres - What I really wanted to say before the ADHD kicked in.
I’ve said it before on this blog and others. The Palestinians are simple pawns in a much much bigger game. Damn I feel sorry for them but that doesn’t let me condone their actions.
They are what keeps the kings of Saudi Arabia in power. They are what keeps the fundamentalists in control of Iran, the scum in Syria, the in-human thugs in Darfur, the fundamentalist Iraq we’ll see in the future and the nuclear, fundamentalist Pakistan to come. Those people never want this to end. They don’t want the Palestinians to wn.
Palestine is the Great Distraction. Add some fuel by backing Bin-Laden and other terrorists and the supreme dictators of this millennium have all they need to keep their slave population in constant focus on the external enemy rather than the people, religion and form of government that keeps them in the 18th century.
If one looks at Israel based on each of these events as the big nasty guys with the planes and tanks attacking poor helpless shepherds then it is almost impossible to not blame Israel. But Israel represents us. They represent freedom, intelligence, modern society, Civilization itself and our quest for mutual acceptance. They are the buffer against those who have enslaved 1/4 of the world in the dark ages. All under the guise of a religious lie that is only IMHO there for the sole purpose of keeping the peeps in their place while the ruling class takes trillions of dollars from beneath the sands. Karl Marx was right. Religion is the Opiate of the people.
I was born and raised a Jew but have not set foot in a synagogue in over 30 years. I am an Atheist who quite frankly gets totally pissed at the nut jobs in Israel who try and act as crazy as the nut jobs in Tehran. I could give a rats ass about Israel as a ‘Jewish State” and perhaps I am even a little anti-Semitic myself. But I would back Israel if they were to finally say fuck it and completely annex the west bank and Gaza. The Palestinians would then enjoy a life they can only dream of under the rule of those with 4 wives and eunuchs to tend them.
I agree with many of your points. But why would Israel want to annex Gaza? Didn’t they just get rid of Gaza? Isn’t the whole point of Israel’s existence to maintain a Jewish state with a majority Jewish population? Isn’t that why Israel allows unlimited Jewish immigration from anywhere in the world while Muslims and Christians born is Israel are second class citizens? Why would they annex Gaza and add a whole bunch more Muslims to their population? (I did not include the West Bank because I really don’t understand that much about the West Bank.)
Until the intifada of the late 80’s the Palestinians were being assimilated into Israel. They may have been second class but I think it was more of a normal financial class thing than anything else. I’m not an expert.
To my weak understanding the “right of return” for Jews is not as open as it once was and they have been cutting back immigration.
I’m quoting a friend who just wrote me.
Maybe this explains the urgency. Fox News Story
And personally, after the extermination of six million Jews, when they said “never again”, they damn well meant it. You’re a small country surrounded by enemies who vow to remove you from the face of the earth? Well, I’d play fucking hardball, too.
Hamas are idiots to mess with them, and they know what poking that hornet’s nest gets them. The blood of their children is on their hands. They can stop it; these attacks are not unprovoked.
Never again, indeed. Don’t fuck with the Israelis.
Never Again! That’s right! Let’s go force people out of their land and settlements beyond any border.
They should have said “never again, nor will we do it”.
I know 6 million Jews died. Personally, I don’t want any other Jew or Israeli killed. I don’t want anyone killed. However, it’s kind of arrogant to only worry about the 6 million Jews that died.
There were like SEVENTEEN million Russian civilians that died and like THRITEEN million Chinese civilians that died too as casualties of WWII. About TWENTY million military people died trying to end the war.
If you’re going to blame Palestinians for voting Hamas in, maybe you should read up on Ben-Gurion, or Shamir:
“As late as 1941, the Zionist group LEHI, one of whose leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, was later to become a prime minister of Israel, approached the Nazis, using the name of its parent organization, the Irgun(NMO)..[The proposal stated:] ‘The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis and bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in the interests of strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East….The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany’s side’…The Nazis rejected this proposal for an alliance because, it is reported, they considered LEHI’s military power ‘negligible.’ ” Allan Brownfield in “The Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs”, July/August 1998.
“In 1938 a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”
“It was summed up in the meeting [of the Jewish Agency's Executive on June 26, 1938] that the Zionist thing to do ‘is belittle the[Evian] Conference as far as possible and to cause it to decide nothing…We are particularly worried that it would move Jewish organizations to collect large sums of money for aid to Jewish refugees, and these collections could interfere with our collection efforts’…Ben-Gurion’s statement at the same meeting: ‘No rationalization can turn the conference from a harmful to a useful one. What can and should be done is to limit the damage as far as possible.’” Israeli author Boas Evron, “Jewish State or Israeli Nation?”
“[Ben-Gurion stated] ‘If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second - because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.’ In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented that ‘the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘Zionism is in danger.’” Israeli historian, Tom Segev, “The Seventh Million.”
well, the jews lost as much land and property (not to mention lives) in the holocaust as the Palestinans ever did to the jews, but how many of you muslim-lovers give a rat’s ass about them getting all THEIR property and land back??
and do you notice how the jews have managed to move on (many in new lands, starting over from scratch) since the holocaust, while the palestians, in true arab fashion, would rather continue to destroy themselves in the hopes that they can take a few jews down with them.
Don’t call me a muslim lover.
Don’t assume that I don’t think anyone who suffered from the holocaust doesn’t deserve anything. I don’t feel that way. I know there is money still in swiss banks at the very least, and I know many soldiers all over took the valuables. This disgusts me. I think any survior or their family deserves the value of what they lost and pain and suffering too.
Don’t assume I only feel bad about certain groups of people suffering. I don’t think the only thing the arabs want to do is kill. I think they want their land, just as Israeli’s do.
But I won’t let all the suffering that have happened to the Jews blind me from what I feel is wrong today. I don’t think defending themselves are wrong. I think settlements and controlling their borders (especially with the wall) and water supplies are wrong. If Israeli’s want the Arabs to behave, maybe they can adhere to the UN resolutions.
Do you think also that african americans should get reparation for what they suffered during slavery ? What is the price of the holocost, the colonisation, the slavery, and the occupation of palestine ? …
Muslem lovers?…isn’t that akin to ‘N-lovers’….wow…that was nice…Uncalled for and just plain nasty. But hey, keep it up, you’re proving every Obots point. I’m sure they’re linking to your comment as I type. Larry, I hope you read that….I’m fucking disgusted.
Wow those obots….who’da thunk it eh? Racists every one I tell you.
… how many of you muslim-lovers give a rat’s ass about them getting all THEIR property and land back??
Hello? How much cash has Germany paid to Israeli Holocaust survivors in reparations? An estimated $25 billion, that’s how much.
Is that a precedent worth keeping in mind here, NoBama?
ubm, it seems you support reparations. however you will get it when there is a cold day in hell.
Did you not read my post above?
It seems I care more than Ben-Gurion does - who could have maybe done something to help prevent this. I was born in 1966…it was out of my power by then. So do NOT lecture me!
I would have NEVER felt this way:
“In 1938 a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine.”
and
What book of history did you get this nonsense?
Oh, forget those pesky old maps where Palestine is written all over it, before Israel wiped Palestine off the map.
I guess Jesus was not born in Palestine.
Do people really think that there were no people in Palestine until the Jews wanted it? If this were true, how could 700,000 arabs have fled?
Truthtelling007,
I have read the same information New Hampster put forward from Jeiwsh, American and Isreali sources. I do not thave time right now to find all the links - Just google history of Zionism - lots of reading there.
As far as historic homeland - sorry I do not buy that at an inalienable right. I do beleive what was apportioned by Britain was fair after WWII.
However, how many other peoples have also lost their homeland? Although a real American with mixed European ancestory, I am predomininently Irish and went there to do some research. After the Briitish took over Ireland, they also took the family farms and gave them to Brisitsh peerage who settled in Ireland. The original Irish were forced to work as serfs on land htey once owned. With the potatoe famine in 1854, many, including my direct ancestors, were allowed to work 1 more havest. In liew of money they were given one way tickets via ship and in steerage to either America or Australia.
Be realistic - What do yout hink my chances, or any other Irish decendents are, of EVER going back and saying “thats my hisotrical land” so cough up the damn deed then get out?
Larry, please do not feel that you are beating a dead horse, quite to the contrary your voice is providing some balance in a usual reported one sided POV…
most of what is reported is very slanted towards Israel and almost said as if the Palestinians don’t really count…they are collateral and not even human…rarely does anyone say anything about the conditions or humiliation they have been forced to live under or give a human side to their story…it is almost as if ‘they asked for it’
it is hard to believe that in the 21st century, the MSM seems to be condoning and rationalizing bombs dropping all over the place and the result is all these invisible people, including innocent children that are getting killed
someone has to make this insanity stop
To me, the question isn’t really “What Israel Should Have Done”; the question is Why Did Israel Do What It Did.”
The answer doesn’t even come close to “Hamas Rockets.”
This time, in view of some observers, it’s the election in Israel. That was the case during the negotiations at TABA according to some Israelis.
Short-term game for political agendas? That’s cynical, isn’t it, considering that hundreds are dead, thousands wounded? Yes, it’s cynical. But, I am cynical because my “bullshit meter” has never failed me. And the disproportionality of the Israeli response screams “bigger agenda.”
It seems political agendas on the part of Israeli politicians, each trying to “out-tough” the other in a staged war for voters play a large part in policy. Political strategy to gain land under the guise of “national security” plays a large part in policy.
Israel could have done a great many things over the past decades which would have eroded support for Hamas. Why didn’t they do those things? It’s a genuine question, I think.
Why do governments in general do what they do? Why did Bush lie about “yellow-cake” in Niger, when he knew it was a lie, and his Nat Security Advisor knew it was a lie? Why did Bush claim Hussein had WMD, and biological weapons, yet send US troops deliberately into harm’s way? [Unless of course, he knew he was lying, and US troops weren't in danger of biological weapons].It’s always the question: Why do governments do what they do? It’s because of hidden agendas, always denied, and rarely clear until later.
It’s clearly not a “dead horse,” since the carnage continues, and it always ends up in the same deadlock during discussion. I hope you continue to bring it up; to self-censor would be anathema to me.
“VIDEO / Egyptian paper: Hamas leaders partially responsible for Gaza assault”
“An editorial published in the Egyptian weekly Al-Ahram on Monday argues that the Hamas leadership, who kept silent as Palestinian militants fired rockets at Israel, is partially to blame for the Israeli assault on the Gaza Strip, which has killed at least 300 Palestinians in the last three days.”
“If you can’t kill the wolf, don’t pull its tail” says the article.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050959.html
What does this have to do with an irrational Israel?
Until the US recognizes the role of the Israeli neocons in the ME violence, the situation will never improve.
We’re not financing the Arab terorrists in the manner we finance a rogue Israel — this is hurting our nation, perhaps even drawing it into a ME war we cannot sustain, a ME war which is adversly affecting our strategic position, our economy, our naitonal security.
“What does this have to do with an irrational Israel?”–Mort
Nothing. It has to do with an irrational Hamas.
Fighting an eqaully irrational Israel.
“What does this have to do with an irrational Israel?”–Mort
Nothing. It has to do with irrational Hamas.
Flat out, I will state unless Israel loses it’s neocons, it will die.
This is the truth in regard to the real enemy.
and mort, if hamas remains in power the same truth applies to them.
Answering Israel’s critics
“Six clichés you are likely to hear constantly in the coming days, and why they’re false”
1) “Israel’s response in Gaza is disproportionate”
2) “But Qassams don’t kill”
3) “It’s all because of Israel’s siege. Israel should allow aid into Gaza.”
4) “Why didn’t Israel just agree to renew the Gaza truce?”
5) “But Hamas was elected democratically – why can’t Israel accept it?”
6) “Israel is targeting civilians”
Rebuttles, here:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3647296,00.html
http://www.peacenow.org/
My answer to you…
The lies and the myths about Israel are truly astonishing, don’t you think, Kat In Your Hat? Didn’t Alan Dershowitz write this piece on ynet? Dershowitz believes in torture. Do you believe in torture, Kat In Your Hat?
The truth is, Israel is slaughtering civilians. Children. Old people. Hamas will be strengthened by this. So, why did Israel do it? Hamas Rockets have killed 4 people; More than 429 Palestinians are dead, thousands injured. Is this a proportionate reponse for a state? Will Israelis now be safe? They’ve slaughtered hundreds of innocent civilians, nearly 50 of them children. Will this make Israelis safe?
Think about it.
GAZA (Reuters) - The civilian death toll climbed in Israel’s air offensive against the Gaza Strip on Friday and Palestinian Islamists vowed revenge for the killing of a senior Hamas leader and his family.
There was no sign of a ceasefire on the seventh day of the conflict, in which at least 429 Palestinians have been killed and 2,000 wounded, but a Palestinian official told Reuters that Egypt had begun exploratory talks with Hamas to halt the bloodshed.
A United Nations agency said more than a quarter of those killed in Gaza were civilians. A leading Palestinian human rights group put it at 40 percent.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSLS69391620090102?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
“Do you believe in torture, Kat In Your Hat?” –mountainaires
It doesn’t matter if I believe in torture or not, nor does it really matter if you do.
We are not world leaders. And the Vote is moot.
This is all worthless. There will NEVER be peace in the middle-east. Not in our lifetimes.
Israel is killing civilians. Yes. Hamas and their suicide bombers and rockets have killed Israelis. Yes.
Yes? Yes.
They do not get along. They will never get along. What is the thing to do? Regime change is happening currently.
There is NO peace. They tried “truce”…they tried “cease-fire”…it does not work.
I am sick and tired of hearing about Israel and Hamas led Palestine–for years now, c’mon.
Maybe Hamas needs to go.
Maybe Hamas should never have set off 1500-3000 rockets during ceasefire time.
Maybe that Egyption leader is right: If you can’t kill the wolf, don’t pull its tail
Maybe Israel is a sovereign nation and can do whatever they want to defend themselves.
Maybe if Canada kept chucking rockets onto the US, hundreds and thousands of them, maybe the USA would get a lil fed up and go after the leadership of their pseudo terrorist/ extremist/ government to defend the nation.
Maybe enough is enough.
What was supposed to happen??
You hit me with two rockets, I hit you with two rockets…until infinity. Hamas has to go. I saw a chart of the sudden violence since they came into power…huge difference. They are extremist–they want war–they got it.
Well said
Thank you NewHampster and Kat, I totally agree.
Thank you from me too. All I can think of is Larry Miller’s (people always think Dennis Miller wrote it)essay about the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Like you New Hampster I was born Jewish and haven’t been to a synagogue in years. I’m closer to atheism than any religion. I believe that all organized religions are cults.
Whosoever Blesses Them
The intifada and its defenders.
by Larry Miller
04/22/2002
The Palestinians want their own country. There’s just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It’s a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like “Wiccan,” “Palestinian” sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no “Palestinians” then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no “Palestinians” then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the “Palestinians,” weeping for their deep bond with their lost “land” and “nation.” So for the sake of honesty, let’s not use the word “Palestinian” any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they’re being taped. Instead, let’s call them what they are: “Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal
Struggle And Death.” I know that’s a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: “Adjacent Jew-Haters.”
Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don’t. They could’ve had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That’s no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course–that’s where the real fun is–but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel–or “The Zionist Entity” as their textbooks call it–for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they’re the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God’s Earth, and if you’ve ever been around God’s Earth, you know that’s really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I’m missing something, the Arabs haven’t given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.
Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.
My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.
Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it’s in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can’t be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who’ve just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there’s always a danger of losing moral weight. We’ve already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that’s actually not such a bad id . . . uh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)
public opinion and the U.N are overrated!
Thank you, Larry, for the additional explantion.
BTW, I’ve never thought of you or any of the posters here as anti-Semetic [whether expressed with snark or not]. Of course, we can criticize Israel without being Jew-haters. In the same way we can question Obama’s credentials without being considered racists.
I’m glad you explained the “proportioned” response as you see it. Because the “proportionality” argument in warfare [up to this essay] made absolutely no sense to me. And it’s not simply at No Quarter where I’ve read posts regarding the issue [though up until this point it has sounded as if Israel should tie one hand behind her back to be equitable and fair].
Honestly, it sounded positively looney to me.
But your suggestions–going through the legitimate steps at the UN, exploring every international avenue available and then let the chips fall as they may–is reasonable. But that makes sense when cool heads prevail.
Unfortunately, we seem to be living in Hot Head territory. Maybe, it’s an unexpected by-product of Global warming!
There’s no denying that Israel is taking a beating in the public opinion department.
I still have no sympathy or affection for Hamas or any of these maniacs. But I can see your point. Well said!
Obama’s Deadly Silence
http://www.infowars.com/?p=6938
elections have consequences. if they didnt want hamas violence they prolly shouldnt have voted for them. just like we will suffer for voting for bo
Why is anyone expecting Obama to say anything? Isn’t he still on vacation? We would not want to disturb his vacation, would we?
Wonder who will spend more time on vacation while president - the current record-holder Dubya, or his competitor Bush III Barack Obama. BO has no brush to chop at the Rezko mansion. What kind of vacation photo ops will he provide? More of him in his swimming trunks?
This is one of those things where Americans tend to hear only the Israili viewpoint, so it’s important to get some perspective from the other side whenever possible. Some might want to check BBC…
i was watching one of the pundit shows yesterday. dang since i try to put them out of my mind as soon as i see them leaves me just quoting what i heard. kalin??? she did say that she looks foward to the media starting to report under reported stories this year and one of them being how many in the world now despise the usa. interesting to think about don’t you think.
The left has been taking the side of Palestinians for at least the last 6 years, and has coupled it with their hatred of BUSH(BDS).
I have read all your posts Larry, and you can type real slow for me, but I have a different opinion than you.
The history here is significant, and there will be no peace because nobody will take the Palestinians to their countries in the area, and the Jews are not leaving alive.
You can beat the horse as much as you want, the results have been the same. They already did what you suggested and it did not work.
Remember “land for peace”…we all see how well that worked out.
I think the conflict was accelerated before Bush left office, because Israel thought they would have more control now ,rather than after BO gets in office.
Thank you New Hampster.
I never seem to get an answer as to why the Palestinians should leave their homeland?
Roger-
When I have to watch the BBC because the MSM isn’t fixing the “news” the way I like it, I’ll be ready to marry Olbermann or Maddow…which ever one will have me.
Thank you, Larry, for the expanded explanation of “proportioned response.” Maybe I missed the first round, but I’m happy you restated it.
BTW, I’ve never considered you or anyone else on this board as anti-semetic [stated with snark or otherwise]. I would not frequent the board if that were the case.
Of course, we should be able to criticize Israel without the charge of Jew-hating. In the same way, we should be able to question Obama’s meager credentials without being called racists.
It’s called debate and discussion.
In any case, I’ve been reading about the proportionality factor in warfare here and elsewhere. Up to this point, it sounded positively looney, as if Israel was required to tie one arm behind her back to be considered equitable and fair, while defending her borders and population.
But the idea of going to the UN, exhausting the diplomatic avenues [not sure it would be terribly successful], and then letting the chips fall as they may is a reasonable argument.
Israel is undeniably taking a beating in the public opinion department. Personally, I’m weary of the apologists for Hamas and other like-minded groups. But taking the moral high-ground certainly wouldn’t hurt. If we consider ourselves righteous in this fight against terrorism then we have to follow the minimum requirements of civilized societies–discuss, negotiate, be willing to resonably compromise. And when and if all else fails: bring out the guns. And if anyone complains then? You tell them to STFU.
I still have no sympathy for Hamas and other like-minded groups. Gaza is ruled by a Thugocracy and civilians are paying the price for an ill-advised election.
But your argument was well-stated and made me think again.
Israel has EVERY right to hit the Palestinians hard. When the Palestinians love their children more than the madness of Hamas, this may end.
I totally agree with you…. having just returned from a business trip to Abu Dhabi I can tell you many of the Arabs I talked to there are NOT sympathetic to the Palestinian group Hamas and blame them for provoking this instability in the Middle East right now. Many of them also think that Iran is behind it all…
While they don’t always have kind words for the Jews/Israel I can say many of them told me that they feel Israel has every right to defend itself in this case!
Thank you for providing that information. According to commenters on this site, every Arab and every Muslim hates Israel and wants it wiped from the face of the earth. This is one of the many pro-Israel lies that is repeated over and over again.
Jackarooty | 2009-01-02 21:43:35
As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the “Palestinians,” weeping for their deep bond with their lost “land” and “nation.”
I am so glad you quoted this piece. Israelis took land that produced nothing. Fertilized it irrigated it and turned it into a place that could produce food and other things. They have done tons of research and were excavating in Jerusalem and the “Palestinians” want control of what the Israeli’s have done….they are guilty of coveting thy neighbor’s goods….pure greed! They did the hard work (I had the opportunity to visit kibbutzes in Israel.) And now the “Palestinians” want the fruit of the Israelis’ work. Got it! They don’t want to work for what they have, they covet what the Israeli’s have done to the land!
You need to learn the true history. Saying what you said is not only heartless, but ignorant.
If there were no Palestinians there, then how could have 700,000 fled in 1948? hmmmm?
and how about this study:
“Britain’s high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said ‘all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators’…The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”
Thanks Idiocracy, I’m glad you responded to Navyvet’s brazen bigotry and ignorance. I just couldn’t bring myself to wade into it; I’m so sick and tired of breathtaking stupidity on the issue, from people who are, as Pat Lang said, “clueless.”
Thanks for taking the time to insert some sanity and honesty, and history.
Thanks! There seems to be an awful lot of screaming about not caring about the Jews and what they lost. They seem to care not ONE iota of what the Palestinians lost. If they really believe all this, they need new leaders.
Not ones like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPG8OekNwog
Please watch this about Palestine before 1947:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjEBQ_bE7uA&feature=related
When the Palestinians start talking and not killing people they might start earning the world respect they seem to think they are owed. You EARN respect, not kill for it.
Then tell the Israeli’s to get out of the West Bank and to quit controlling their borders.
I guess you didn’t watch the films that go with my point that there were people there before the Jews came. I guess you didn’t care about those people. Nice.
I don’t believe the Jews should be in the West Bank. Why do you make assumptions? And what kind of nation would Israel be if they don’t controll their borders? Do you think before you post?
I am not interested in anti-Israeli propaganda. Arab nations have collectively vowed to wipe Israel off the map. Guess you only give a shit for the US and the Palestinians. Supported 0bama, did you?
Talk about thinking before you post!! you and I have been on the same side regarding Obama. i don’t believe in ANY propaganda of any kind. from anyone, including the Jews.
I didn’t say you think that Jews should be in the West Bank, I said tell the Israelis that.
Oh, and by the way…people like to talk about wiping Israel off the face of the map…but in reality, isn’t that what Israel did to Palestine? Where is Palestine?
Israel should control their borders. THEIR borders. They are controlling Gaza’s so no food or medical supplies can get in. I mean they even rammed the boat Karl Penhal was on, along with a former US congressperson.
I’m not posting anti-Israel propoganda. I’m posting videos or statements that actually came from Israeli leaders. I’m sorry if you wanted those kept hidden or don’t want people to know about them, but don’t blame me. I didn’t make these statements.
I’m not the one spreading lies about how there were no people in Palestine until the Jews came. I’m not the one that stopped Jews from going to other European states in 1938 because that would have meant less Jews immigrating to Palestine. That was David Ben-Gurion.
You can talk history all you like and you can take the track that the Jews are responsible for the current situation all you wish. The current situation IS and the nation of Israel is as responsible to its citizens as any US administration is to its citizenry.
Why don’t we all go back to where we came from and return this nation to the native Americans? Me? I’m Irish, English, French, and Scotts. Got any ideas?
I guess by your reckoning losing your nation, your families, your heritage, your wealth, your trust in your nation that you were first a citizen and then a member of a religious group isn’t enough? Right?
It is pretty easy sitting in relative comfort in a nation not at war to pick and choose who we support. Me? I’ll always pick the side that backs democracy and doesn’t strap explosives to unsuspecting women and children. Call me old fashioned!
I don’t know what you’re trying to say. Are you talking about the Palestinains here? I’ll be happy to address the rest of your comments, but I’m stumped on this statement.
Did you miss the discussion of the Holocaust? Plenty of good reading material if you want to catch up ….
i’ve been catching up. you may want to too:
“In 1938 a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine.”
and
“[Ben-Gurion stated] ‘If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second - because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.’ In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented that ‘the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘Zionism is in danger.’” Israeli historian, Tom Segev, “The Seventh Million.”
Why was it so wrong for the Germans to do it to the Jews in Germany - yet your are a hero if you want to do the same thing to the Palestinians? Your comment really does agree with what I’ve been trying to say about the Palestinains today. They have lost their nation, land, wealth, families.
You may want to read up on the other nations that lost people too in WWII. Russia, who helped stop the war, lost 11 million civilians, and the Chinese lost 16 million civilians.
and millions have been lost in other wars since then. the movie the killing fields brings that home. stalin killed more than that in his gulags. the number killed in the 1960s in china isn’t known. so your point is what?? that you know history. well many of us do also. the horror that was done to israel brought this about along with the many years of abuse in a number of counrties. it was a decision the united nations made along with the support of the winners of ww2.
if your comment regards zionism, then please be specific about it.
I am a stickler myself for citations ….
There we are with that sticky thing called history versus where we are now with the situation at hand.
Also idio (if I can use a nick name) as a percentage of a population, the murder of the Jews during Hitler knows no equal. Now. You and your little revisionism can take a hike or blow me. Your choice entirely.
sorry horror done to jews not israel! wrong context there!
You guys are trying to lose the significance of what is happening today in the tumbled pages of history. WWII is over. Any sympathy that diaspora jews received after WWII has been burned up by the current state of Israel.
This is not contest between equals and it is constantly being protracted that way by th Pro Israel side of the house. If there is an invasion of Gaza it will be done by Israeli’s wearing tanks and planes and armored personnel carriers. The Palestinians will be wearing cotton… and maybe a little wool.
Israel is sovereign state. The other is not. Israel is a free. The others are not. This is not equal. This is Israel beating down a captured people for thirty years. Israeli Jews don’t get an sympathy for this action.
Israeli Jews, of all the people on the world, should know better.
It’s not letting me reply to your post.
You may use a nickname for Idiocracy. That’s not my real name, so I’m not offended.
I only started using that name because of what was going on with the primaries. Have you seen the movie Idiocracy? If not, you should. It’s the funniest thing I’ve ever seen! Luke Wilson goes 500 years into the future, and the world had de-evolved and everyone was stupid. Kinda like now! (and I’m talking our elections).
Look, I don’t want to argue with anyone to the point that I’m being offensive. I’m trying to argue the other side. I’ll reply to the comments later, so I won’t be accused of ignoring them. I’m a Christian, born in the US. My grandmother’s maiden name is Zimmermann. I have no problems dating Jews, and have done so. Never even kissed a Muslim. My grandfather fought for the US in WWII. He was over 40 with 3 children. He enlisted only because he thought it was right…he did not like what was happening. I grew up with him and he is my hero. I have always been horrified by what was done to the Jews in WWII. It’s very saddening to the heart.
But if you want to talk about today, then fine. There are UN resolutions that say the settlements are illegal.
Today, I live in a world where I have to explain my family’s 40+ year friendship with a family from Lebanon. This is a man who hates no one. He wants all Jews ands Arab to have equal rights and live in peace. He is very Americanized. He has dual citizenship. His children were born here. When war broke out with Lebanon, the US military flew his family here to the US. If he’s good enough for them, it should be ok for me to be friends with him, right? No, people still call him names, or question me. So, when I get defensive, it’s really defending him in my heart.
I have a feeling that is the same way with Jews getting defensive. Which I understand. I just don’t want people to say so much “but what about me” that they are blinded to everyone else.
No matter how much I may agree or argue with you guys….I still love my NQ friends. You kept me sane during the primaries.
well said WC.
hamas doesn’t get sympathy either wild child. but i agree that history is history. it might give some guidance on what is happening today but that is all besides the fact that those who ignore it are doomed to repeat it.
Hamas is the Palestinians just like the Democrats and the Republicans are the Americans. If the United States had been taken over and we Americans had been pushed in the corners of our country while citizens of the new state took over our old neighborhoods while all we got was cramped tenements behind walls and barbed wire, we wouldn’t be having this discussion about sympathy. We’d be fighting the assholes that took our country.
well…. at least I would be.
it is a tad more complicated than that as many of our learned posters will tell you.
sorry, but it’s a very simple situation. As a matter of fact it’s so simple that when we were faced with it in Iraq we went in and deposed the sitting government because they weren’t following the resolutions set forth by the world body in the UN. If we are what we say we are and not bunch of flaming hypocrites that, as the Arabs fear, treat Muslims one way and jews another, then we’ll do they same to the sitting government in Israel.
One standard. One set of rules that bind us all.
wild child, i don’t mean to insult you here, but i see that as a little too simple for a complex situation. i can see you are heartful and i agree with the emotions you feel.
LOL of course you would see it as too simple. No husband likes the cops coming by when he’s just beaten his wife in the closet he’s had her locked in for thirty year. I mean officer, I have her locked in there for my own safety. Every time I open the door to slip some food in she ties to rip my face off. Poor poor me.
ok wild child, see it the way you want. lol right back at you. i won’t waste my time with you agian.
(LMAO) no doubt. You don’t like it when your heros aren’t portrayed in the heroic light, do you? Remind me when my country is taken over and we are getting forced into the camps not to count on you as you’ll be lost in the complexity of it all ROFLMAO
pathetic! not even worth my time.
Exactly, that’s why we never count on you bubba.
i am not a bubba to you now or ever. save your insults for when you look in the mirror.
why wait until then? You won’t be one of the guys I see in it who has my back. (you know, because of that complexity thing LoL)
look, you are wasting your time and mine with you silly insults. give a rest. maybe silly insults fly in your house. i bet you mom doesn’t care for it. give it a rest and grow up.
I don’t see why you should feel insulted about skipping out on your countrymen while they’re being herded into the camps. You can’t help being what you are.
taking it to the next level, you’d have to go back to ghensis khan and the rest of the invaders telling them they’d have to leave and pay the former residents for abusing them. that is absurb of course, but some of the thinking excusing hamas is about on that level.
Show me where I excuse Hamas. PLEASE! I’ve been taking up for the Palestinian people. I said “Good!” when they announced the Hamas leader had been killed. I have no pity for him.
Genghis Khan was only around the 12th century. You’d have to go back way before then.
If the Arabs hated the Jews and wanted them out of Palestine so badly, then why didn’t they side with the Germans in WWII? Why were the Jews trying to make deals with the Nazis?
“As late as 1941, the Zionist group LEHI, one of whose leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, was later to become a prime minister of Israel, approached the Nazis, using the name of its parent organization, the Irgun(NMO)..[The proposal stated:] ‘The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis and bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in the interests of strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East….The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany’s side’…The Nazis rejected this proposal for an alliance because, it is reported, they considered LEHI’s military power ‘negligible.’ ” Allan Brownfield in “The Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs”,
July/August 1998.
revisionism run amuck excusing what hamas has done. i can spend all day finding historic examples to supposed support my ideas about what’s what also. much ado about nothing. today is today. hamas made the decision to fire on israel. that is a fact. it doesn’t change the fact that israel has made bad decisions. i agree with larry on that.
going back to this is the land of palestians’ is the point i was making. history has shown always wars of aggression and differing groups coming in driving off others. this goes back to very early man as well. i don’t think it is a legitimate argument is my point. the people of gaza are being used by hamas and surrounding neighbors for their own purposes with no view to helping these poor people. and peace won’t come till hamas is willing to let go of their viewes along with the saudis and others. of course israel will have to revise their views also. i have never argued with that.
You talk like the Palestinian resistance to their subjugation by Israel just happened with the election of Hamas. All that has changed is the name printed on the party cards. The people holding the cards are the same people who have been fighting the same injustice for the better part of thirty years.
I’m revising nothing. I’m pointing out statements that were made.
I’m not excusing what Hamas has done.
and
There, was that so hard?
Ground war begins…just heard it on the news.
dang, i was hoping there would be no ground war. it is tragedy no matter where anyone’s sympathy might lie. nothing good will come from this.
Agreed!
palestine has never existed before israel as a nation in the world today. sure there were people in egypt and jordan when the jews came. that’s would owned the land where the fighting is going on today. if you sit around for years crying for what was and never doing anything about tomorrow, then tomrorrow never comes. or if it does the one living in the past doesn’t recognize it and get positive returns. you have to get off your butt and stop being the dang victim all the time. a lot of what is happening here starts with that. the neigboring countries have used these people and made them victims for their own purposes. they elected people who use their for their own ends ie futhering the victimhood. the press makes them victims. it is a never ending useless dance that futhers the future for none including israel.
these folks elected hamas after they became disgused with the plo. underneath the culture of hate lead to many of the problems today. don’t deny it as it is damn well the truth. you can’t move forward while looking backward. you can’t move forward when you electt manipulative thugs who want to gain by your loss.
How come people always bring up WWII or say there were no Palestinians there, etc when proving their point…but when someone points out that there were people there and that some of the Jews in Palestine could have helped the Jews in Europe and didn’t…it’s always “let’s talk about today”?
When people can start to acknowlege all of history and not just their own, then maybe we can move forward. People who say “those who don’t know history are doomed to repeat it” are so right.
And for the record, again, there were Palestinians there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WXBX2KWkT0
Arabs, Jews, and Christians.
the point is the land belonged it egypt and jordan. there was no such country. sure there were people there and no one i know will argue that they haven’t suffered certainly not me. i have sympathy for what is happening today. but to just blame israel for the whole mess is so one sided and silly i just can’t accept that. i see history used again and again for support for someone’s personal views just like the bible for heaven’s sake. i get tired of that also. many of us can take the time and find bits of history to support our views also. the battles of historical views if you will .
however that doesn’t help what is happening today is my point.
The original partition plan for Palestine called for an Arab state and a Jewish state independent of Egypt and Jordan
called for! did not exist! and as i recall was turned down by the plo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you’re kidding me ight? The PLO wasn’t founded until 1964. The original partition plan is from 1947.
sigh! lol!
wow, I guess you weren’t kidding me. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
you are silly, insulting and not very well informed. leave that to adults.
now there’s an interesting way to concede that the PLO wasn’t founded until l964, a full 17 years after the original partition plan.
What were you saying about adults again LOL
stupid is as stupid does. you missed the point because you wanted to wild child. i made the point that it never existed and when given the chance arafat turned it down. that is a little complex i know for you.
how could I miss the point? The local moose lodge opposed the partition plan. or was it the elks? With all these none governmental organizations mixed together in the room I’ve got points coming at me from all sides.
Which Arab nations have said they want Israel wiped from the face of the earth? Please tell us which one.
I guess Iran and Ahmadinejad are still an Arab nation?
When did the Jews first occupy the land called Palestine?
When did Islam begin?
Arabs were arabs before the Muslim religion.
Google is your friend ….
First of all, it’s not “palestinians.” It is Hamas–15,000–in Gaza. There are 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza. So, let us be factual and distinguish one thing from another, as there surely IS a big distinction, though the Israeli government exploits ignorance to wage aggression against an entire 1.5 million people, who they have starved for the past 3 years, by keeping their blockade of Gaza in place, despite the fact that HAMAS was democratically elected and observed the truce, and even, in 2006 recognized Israel’s right to exist.
Got it? The Israeli military junta is now defying an order from its own supreme court to allow foreign journalists into Gaza. They don’t obey international law; they don’t even obey their own law.
http://correntewire.com/israel_government_defies_its_own_high_court_no_international_reporters_gaza
duh! the people elected hamas to make decisons for them.
Posted on Wed, Dec. 31, 2008
What helped the rise of Hamas? U.S., Israel policies, turns out
Warren P. Strobel | McClatchy Newspapers
last updated: January 01
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/v-print/story/58812.html
MORE FROM MCCLATCHY
How U.S. policy missteps led to a nasty downfall in Gaza
Analysis: ‘I don’t see how this ends well’
Israel prepares for possible invasion; air strikes continue
Israel launches air assault on Gaza, killing 225
Israeli troops dance as they await the order for a Gaza war
yes i agree the policy of the usa under bush has undermined peace in the middle east.
Israel’s Big Blunder
Israeli writer, Uri Avnery:
The truce Hamas had meticulously upheld was shattered when Israel attacked Gaza, killing six Palestinians, as The Guardian reported on 5 November. A blatant disregard for the facts, it seems, will not leave the White House with George W. Bush on 20 January.
http://www.progressive.org/mag/avnery010209.html
Whatever Happened to Western Morality?
By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS
Two Israelis, Jeff Halper who heads the Israeli peace movement ICAHD, and Neve Gordon who is chairman of the department of politics and government at Ben-Gurion University, asked, “Where’s the Academic Outrage Over the Bombing of a University in Gaza?”
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts01022009.html
Israeli military officials defy their own Supreme Court. Ground invasion must be imminent:
Sat, 01/03/2009 - 9:46am — lambert
The invaluable McClatchy:
http://correntewire.com/israel_government_defies_its_own_high_court_no_international_reporters_gaza
Going out on a limb, my opinions my own, FWIW, I think the powers that be are going to let Israel fail as a state, in part due to the actions of the Israeli right wing, the neocons, and their violent, mindless strategy.
Meaning they’re being engaged, gamed, to lose.
And it’s a done deal, unfortunately, Israel WILL fail, they have already been written off, (from my point of view), it’s only a matter of when they fail.
OUR neocons failed miserabley, in Iraq, and America. They use the same methods as Israel, we SAW what is it has done to the US, the wars, the economy, isolating the US strategically, — logically, WHY would it be any different for Israel?
It won’t.
And this is very sad, btw, as the Israeli neocons are only a small part of the Israeli population, having hijacked the peace process, the development of the nation, driving it into the ground, as Cheney, and Bush, did America.
But who knows, I could be wrong.
Did you pick “Mort” because it is the French word for dead? As in above the shoulders?
I disagree with you, and this has NOTHING to do with the religious conflict, it has to do with simple strategy.
Deal with it, they lose, no matter what, and all the denail, and arrogance, in the world won’t change a flawed military strategy.
You agree the US has a defense department, protecting it from other nations?
Why would Israel’s actions be exempt?
You’re only as good as your intelligence, right?
And yes, I did chose the word Mort for a specific reason, but not the one you cited.
I had a vision of the Israeli death.
(I’m kidding about that last sentence).
The non neocon Israelis, the non neocon Jews, some of the finest humans on earth, the finest minds humanity has ever produced, much like that certain segment of Brits, and Americans.
And others, of course.
Maybe it was mortification?
Your words: Deal with it, they lose, no matter what, and all the denail, and arrogance, in the world won’t change a flawed military strategy.
You are arguing military strategy versus political strategy. The military strategy is to implement a political strategy that the elected officials of the State of Israel will be punished for by their electorate. See?
There are few military forces more admired than the Israelis. Admired and feared. The lack of success of the military will signal a weakening of the political resolve of the government. Sigh. You should read more.
Sigh.
I do read, and I disagree with you.
Deal with it.
Granted, the US is really no longer failing, can’t say the same for Israel.
We’re not the same.
I mean, theoretically, beebop, I look at Israeli neocons, and I see arrogant kooks, unable to see outside their own head.
How can I game him?
Do you honestly think Americans only eat hamburgers, watch TV, and smile?
And if it’s not me thinking this, it’s Russia say, ie how can I use the Israel against the US?
Realistically, it’s a part of any nations defense to calulate and game the weaknesses of other nations, if only as a matter of course.
But you knew that, of course.
“There are few military forces more admired than the Israelis.” They did not do so well in Lebanon a few years ago. They also failed to learn in Lebanon that attacking civilians and destroying infrastructure is not a winning strategy.
hmm, i believe the reports of the demise of the country of israel are greatly exaggerated. sorry i don’t buy mort. i hope you aren’t selling.
I guess it is short for mortician …
No. I don’t believe him/her. I don’t think that’s the point any way. Maybe his/her 2009 resolution was something weird that neither you nor I can fully grasp?
I know, and I admit I’m out on a limb.
And I hope I’m wrong.
The writer Michael Chabon is a part of an organization called Americans for Peace Now - I admire, greatly, his efforts, and I’m rooting for him, and those who think like him, to succeed.
Hopey
Changey
No wonder!
Please let us know when the world last had peace. I’m not being cynical, just realistic. Peace is not in our nature. Sorry. You have what I want … First it was basics … skins, clubs, etc. Then it progressed. Sorry. Peace is a state of mind. Find it and embrace it. That’s all you and Monsiour Chabon will ever realize.
Peace is a process, and there is no absolute.
Given history, though, perhaps this is the start of something, for the long run, helping to stabilize the ME.
I admire Michael Chabon, he, and his organization express why so many of us support Israel, and always will — I DO NOT support the Israeli neocons.
Well, perhaps in Discworld, all of this is sense. We will see in Realworld, yes?
We have a new resident for the white house with less experience and knowledge of how things work than the old one. Naivete is refreshing in youth but not reassuring in your national leader, neh? Even his VP predicted that he would be challenged. Let’s all pray to our own God or spirits that there isn’t a sequel to My Pet Goat in our futures.
Larry,
You premised your argument on “moral high ground” and “world opinion,” which are evasive terms because (1) you do not define them, and (2) in the end they are irrelevant to the point. Ultimately, however, the phrase “moral high ground” really means “Larry Johnson’s approval”; and “world opinion” really means “Larry Johnson’s opinion.” But the one point that you have never conceded is that the existence of HAMAS in Gaze poses a tremendous threat to the state of Israel and that targeting rocket batteries one at a time — after they have done their damage — will not eliminate the threat.
You apparently believe that “moral high ground” and “world opinion” allow Israel to attack HAMAS only if (A) HAMAS has launched an unprovoked attack against Israel and (B) if Israel limits its attack to the specific battery where HAMAS launched its attack. In other words, you deny Israel the right to eliminate HAMAS’ terrorist infrastructure that supplies the organization with weapons, hardware, and terrorists.
This is an incredibly shortsighted and naïve position that inexplicably requires Israel to twiddle its thumbs while a well-financed terrorist organization arms itself to destroy the thumb-twiddling nation — all because “moral high ground” and “world opinion” (i.e. “Larry Johnson”) obligates them to twiddle away. It’s interesting to me, however, that you refuse to condemn HAMAS while you simultaneously refuse to recognize their stated objective — the complete destruction of Israel.
But let’s test your argument and see if it works. During the Blitz of WWII, you contend that the “moral high ground” permitted Great Britain to shoot down Nazi warplanes only after they dropped their bombs on London. Moreover, you contend that “world opinion” prohibited Great Britain from attacking the Nazi war machine in Germany, because they were only allowed to eliminate immediate threats after they did their damage.
Of course, this is absurd and I for one am extremely thankful that Great Britain was not beholden to your moral standards. Nevertheless, it is your argument. And it is your argument because you refuse to admit that HAMAS has declared war against Israel, just as you refuse to admit that HAMAS has vowed to destroy Israel. And when I observe these facts, please note that I am not calling you an anti-Semite; I am simply critiquing your argument.
one of the things i’d like to bring home here is that larry has commented from my view on the mistakes that israel has made. i agree there have been a number of them. he does not excuse hamas as many on here try to do. i find him to be realistic in his views. he supports them. some of us may not completely agree but his comments are based on reality and common sense. some commenters though sincere use the forum to bash one side of the other. that so doesn’t help. i feel deep sympathy for the people of gaza and deplore their decision to elect hamas. i deplore the fact that the far right gained control in insrael yet i know their importance and survival is of vital importance. israel will not die as a nation. that is so not going to happen.
Who here is trying to excuse Hamas?
then ritamary, comment on the evil deeds that hamas has done to israel and their own people. your arguments are all one sided. what do you think the readers might get from that constant refrain?
Ran HaCohen, “an Israeli critic of Israeli policies.”: The Case Against the Occupation
http://antiwar.com/hacohen/
http://voicesofisrael.com/hacohen.html
Israelis Refuse to Serve:
Shministim:
http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/2008/09/some-israeli-kids-refuse-to-serve-the-occupation-why-dont-we-know-about-them.html
http://www.accuracy.org/newsrelease.php?articleId=1896
Gideon Levy, Israeli journalist:
The Neighborhood Bully Strikes Again
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050459.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts01022009.html
Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052036.html
Israel’s Big Blunder
Uri Avnery
http://www.progressive.org/mag/avnery010209.html
Sara Roy, Ph.D, lived in Gaza for 3 years, and wrote her dissertation on Israeli economic policy in Gaza
Ending the Stranglehold in Gaza
Why is this acceptable?
January 2008
http://www.counterpunch.org/roy01282008.html
all this is interesting and makes sense on the surface. bring the good people of gaza up to an acceptable living label. i agree completely. however, the question remains does that serve the ends of hamas whom the people of gaza voted into power. does it serve the neighborhing countries interests. that has been one of the major problems here.
Too bad about Israel going into Gaza but certainly, everyone knew it was coming.
And I mean that, btw, it’s really too bad.
yeah, i heart that comment.
“Why didn’t Israel just agree to renew the Gaza truce?”
Please.
This very large military operation and good targeting intelligence takes weeks and months to prepare.The MSM may hype that but myself and i’am sure many here laugh at that. The huge disproportionate military response(which by the way takes quite some time to prepare)proves that.
The Israeli gov’t had no wish for that ceasefire to continue. It was too easy to escalate more rocket attacks with Hamas by a few targeted attacks on their people to get the ball rolling.
Don’t get me wrong Hamas is evil but the palestinians are not, as a whole, and it’s bloody murder to see dozens and dozens of basically babies being wiped out and families completely destroyed. There were other methods and I think thats why you see so many upset people about this.
How about if Hamas STOPS TERRORIZING?!
Quits buying, smuggling, building, hiding and launching rockets and mortars at children!
But you don’t bitch about that for some sick reason.
No, you feel for the people who treat women like chattel.
Israeli children bleed too.
Please check on the treatment women in Israel receive when they try to get a divorce.
Comment by Idiocracy08 “i’ve been catching up. you may want to too:
“In 1938 a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine.” ”
WW II did not begin until 1939, Idiocracy08. Therefore, the Holocaust, ot ‘final solution,’ had not yet been implemented. The Evian, France conference was held prior to WW II to discuss emmigration of Jews from Germany due to Hitler’s mistreatment since coming to power.
I don’t think you can intelligently discuss a topic until you have the facts straight.
[...] had a talk with my friend who writes the blog “Oh…My Valve!” about censorship at No Quarter. It was long discussion because my friend was banned from commenting at No Quarter for [...]
[...] Valve!” tell his story in his own words that began with the blatant pro-Hamas tack that No Quarter has taken in the last week. So I am very proud to bring you some excerpts from “Oh…My [...]
A fine article, Larry. Unfortunately, your ideas of an alternative Israeli response have allready been tried in Israel, with disastrous consequences.
“Point 1: Filed a complaint with the United Nations/National Security Council after every rocket launch.”
Utterly meaningless. Israel has attempted to sit back and complain to the UN every time its citizens were bombed. You know what happened? The UN was supportive in speech but the international community overall ignored Israel, and Hamas freely continued firing rockets, thus this tactic is an easy verbal escape from actually defending one’s civilians from rocket fire.
“2: Deployed counter battery units with international observes and members of the media to establish that Israel is retaliating only against specific rocket/mortar sites. Israel would fire counter battery at every source for a rocket/missile. This is called “proportionate” response.”
Again, counter battery has been tried before. Unfortunately, if you were aware of Gaza’s urban environment and Hamas’s use of urban areas to fire rockets, counter battery fire is a sure way to cause an immedurable number of Palestinian civilian casualties. Last time Israel tried it, one artillary shot accidentally killed a whole family. The international community would totally ignore the fact that this was ‘counter battery fire’ and focus on pictures of dead and wounded Palestinians. In addition, since Hamas fires its rockets and runs for its life, counter battery fire will be lucky to ever hit a Hamas individual.
The US may have employed such tactics in Fallujah, but this resulted in thousands of civilian dead, far more than Israel ever inflicted in an urban engagement.
3: “Now, if those Hamas rockets were causing significant Israeli casualties–let’s say 50% of the rockets killed or wounded someone–then you could make a case to escalate the Israeli response.”
Since when is war a mathematical equation? The basic objective of any warring party is to inflict maximal damage on the enemy while minimizing its own casualties. Was there anything proportional about the US war in Iraq? Or about Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait for that matter? Israel is doing exactly what any other country has done in the past. This is how war works.
Would a British citizen complain that too few British soldiers are being killed in Iraq? Probably not.
Should Israel wait for 500 or 1000 casualties before we have the ‘moral’ right to defend ourselves? Bullshit.
“4: Promoted internationally supervised aid/healthcare missions. Yes, a hearts and mind campaign. Ensure that Israel and the Palestinians cooperating with her are the source for food and medical care. As it stands now, Hamas is that source.”
That’s a false assumption for two reasons.
A: Hamas is not the source of aid to the Palestinians. Everything it distributes comes from foreign aid.
B: Israel, if you havent noticed, has been supplying Gaza with food, electricity, water and even pro-bono health-care for years, despite its civilians being constantly bombed by Gaza’s government. That is unprecedented in modern history. No country, even the US, would have done so while 15% of its country was under bombardment.
Oh, and a small addition:
In order to win a ‘heart and minds’ campeign, one has to actually remove Hamas from effective controll of Gaza, or that campeign is doomed to failor. Larry’s suggestion is akin to trying to ‘win hearts and minds’ in Iraq while Saddam is still in power.
I would say that is a tad naive.