This Will Sicken You
By Larry Johnson on January 11, 2009 at 4:39 PM in Current Affairs
Warning. The images below the fold are horrific. You will be disturbed and sickened. These images are appearing throughout the Arab and muslim world and are likely to awaken a significant backlash against Israel.
Israel’s effort to justify the invasion of Gaza because Hamas is firing rockets into Israel is getting little traction outside of Israel and the United States. The major problem is that after more than 10,000 rockets only 32 Israelis have died. So far, after a two week offensive in Gaza, more than 275 children are dead. Those children did not fire a single rocket at Israel. But they are dead nonetheless.
The toll on the children remains abstract until you see images like these:
After almost two weeks of combat Hamas is still firing missiles into Israel. It is a reminder that Israel’s ability to “solve” this threat thru force is highly questionable. Israel has few good options going forward. If it stops its offensive now it concedes a symbolic victory to Hamas, which will argue it withstood the Israeli onslaught and is still able to fire back. However, if it pursues the campaign against Hamas the IDF must venture farther into the densely populated cities of Gaza. That means more civilian deaths and the deaths of more children.
It matters little whether or not Israel intended to kill children. It is being perceived internationally as a deliberate policy of extermination.
There is an ultimate irony here. Supporters of Israel vow to never forget the Holocaust–the murder of more than six million Jews by the Nazis. Implicit in the vow to never forget is a belief that the failure of the European Jews to retaliate against the anti-semitic laws and defend themselves contributed to their annihilation. Israel, it is argued, cannot afford to take any risk of believing that those who attack Jews can be accorded any quarter or benefit of the doubt. It is a fight for survival and in such fights anything goes. But now Israel finds itself making the case that it must kill children to save children.
Yet when does it become okay to kill children? That question will haunt any nation carrying out a military assault on an urban center. The United States was able to incinerate tens of thousands of children in Hirsohima and Nagasaki without too much recrimination because the nuclear bombs brought a quick end to a war that might have produced even more civilian casualties.
Israel is at a political disadvantage. The Gazans inhabit a type of ghetto. Israel and Egypt control, for the most part, the flow of food and other goods into Gaza. Hamas portrays itself as freedom fighters for the Palestinians. Ironically, before the Israelis invaded, a case could be made that Hamas did not enjoy widespread support. But their fight against seemingly overwhelming odds resonates among not only Palestinians, but muslims worldwide, as an Islamic version of Masada. Jews continue to celebrate the fight to the death of a small band of Jewish defenders surrounded by the Roman Army. The Jews lost at Masada. Do Jews today consider that a defeat?
Masada today is one of the Jewish people’s greatest symbols. Israeli soldiers take an oath there: “Masada shall not fall again.” Next to Jerusalem, it is the most popular destination of Jewish tourists visiting Israel. As a rabbi, I have even had occasion to conduct five Bar and Bat Mitzvah services there. It is strange that a place known only because 960 Jews committed suicide there in the first century C.E. should become a modern symbol of Jewish survival.
That’s my point. A devastating loss to a superior military force did not become a source of shame for Jews. It is a point of pride. I believe that the images above are likely to stiffen Palestinian will to resist, not weaken it. The fight for Gaza may be the Palestinians version of Masada. And I don’t see how that is in Israel’s interest.
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God help us all.
Hamas deliberately set up human shields for a high death rate so that the media turns on Israel.
The Hamas Central Command is directly under a hospital.
They are pulling all kinds of crap
They put live people on top of buildings so that Israelis can’t strike.
Today’s NYT has a front page article on this horrific, and illegal trick.
So what’s the solution, Larry? Let Hamas grow stronger. They have Israel RIDDLED with underground tunnels.
Negotiation? Will that do it? Israel did return Gaza to the Palestinians.
Then the Palestinians elected Hamas.
The Palestinians elected to go to war with Israel. They elected Hamas, a terrorist group dedicated to the destruction of Israel.
Now, you are suggesting, that Israel should sit back and do nothing, while the rockets go further and further into Israel?
This nation has every right to defend itself. If Hamas warriers shield themselves with women, children and babies, world outrage should be directed at Hamas.
Shouldn’t it?
Stop spreading false information. Gaza was never returned. It’s always been under quarantine.
Israel broke the truce, not Hamas.
Mr. X –
Please provide cites:
JulieD,
Read Ilan Pappe’s book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Read Avi Shlaim’s book, The Iron Wall. Read Amira Haas’ book, Drinking the Sea at Gaza. Read Sara Roy’s columns, and her book on the Economic Strangling of Gaza by Israel; Read Ran HaCohen’s columns, read a whole host of other Jewish and Israeli writers, professors, and historians.
Unfortunately for you, the truth about Israel’s history and policies is not your romantic myth, but something far more difficult for any moral person to justify. Many Israelis openly reject their government’s ideology:
RanHaCohen in 2002: Ethnic Cleansing and “transfer” of Palestinians by Israel
http://antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=672
Let’s just imagine for a moment that an extremist leader comes to power in Mexico, and his party declares that Texas is really Mexican land, and that all Texans must leave or die. Then this group begins shelling Texan border towns and even manages to get a few long range missiles to hit suburban Austin and Houston. Central and South-American arms dealers begin selling really serious missiles to the Mexicans. Suicide bombers kill hundreds in a busy shopping mall in Houston. The Mexicans hide their arms in basements under schools, hospitals and historic churches. Mexican farm workers in Texas give interviews to the press about how their great grandfathers used to own Houston, but the land was stolen from them.
The USA shells missile launching sites near the Texas-US border, killing 450 civilians in the process, and trys to blockade arms shipments by sea from reaching Mexico. The Mexican tourist industry dries up completely and thousands of young Mexicans take to the street denouncing the USA, burning it’s flag and shouting DEATH TO TEXANS! Hundreds of shells rain down on Texas daily, and there is a run on bulldozers and concrete as Texans start building bunkers everywhere. Thousands of American residents of Mexico barely get out of Mexico with their lives: their land and bank accounts are seized.
The USA now occupies border areas of Mexico, and starts to move whole sections of ‘The Wall’ onto Mexican land, sometimes cutting Mexicans off from their families, farmland and schools. Mexican youths pelt US soldiers with rocks and Molotov cocktails. A US soldier shoots one of these youths. The US has to veto a UN Security Council vote to declare the US guilty of war crimes.
Palestinians around the world now demonstrate alongside Mexicans denouncing Israel and the USA. More Mexicans die, and then a shell lands in an Austin suburban garden full of children celebrating a birthday.
The US begins a serious air assault on the border regions, while the European nations try to broker a ceasefire. The Mexicans refuse to accept a ceasefire, demanding that Texas be declared a sovereign state and claiming a right of return for all Mexican decendants who have any ancestor who ever lived on Texan soil.
Bodies of children ‘discovered’ by Red Cross workers (later proved to be 2 victims of a car accident and 5 children killed when a Mexican arms depot accidently exploded) are broadcast on the evening news. A major French newspaper starts referring to Tex-Zionists. A series of UN resolutions are proposed condemning the USA, and telling her to get out of ‘occupied’ Texas. Only the American UN veto power stops these resolutions from passing.
What should America do?
(X-posted slightly differently at http://www.tnr.com in support of Bernard Henri-Levy’s latest column)
What?? Mr X either you are an ignorant or purposely spreading false info.
Everyone, including Hamas, know Hamas broke the truce.
Nope. Israel killed 6 Palestinians in November on a Gaza beach, in breech of the ceasefire. Until that time, Hamas had honored the truce. Rockets began again only AFTER those 6 Palestinians were killed.
You’re being misled by propaganda, Andy, much like before the invasion of Iraq.
Think for yourself. Get the facts.
word, standard. many palestinians would rather die than live in peace with israel, if by dying they can take a few israelis down with them. people should check out the movie “suicide killers;” it will give them a pretty clear look at the mentality of the palestinian “resistance.”
if you kill a bunch of kids at a pizza place you will be treated as a hero. parents are proud of their teenage children who become suicide bombers, and say they wish all their kids could become “martyrs.” the bombers get their picture put on murals in the city streets and their (former) desks at school turned into little shrines for the killer. doesn’t seem like they’re too concerned about the lives of children to me.
this is not a case of a few wacko palestinian “extremists;” these people who *deliberately, admittedly* kill innocent civilians and children receive too much glorification and support from their people for this to be an isolated phenomenon.
An article from Jerusalem paper Haaretz, from MAY of 2008:
Settler group planning to reestablish Gaza bloc
“The Homesh First Movement is expected to announce Tuesday that settlement groups are planning to return to Settlements in Gush Katif evacuated during the August 2005 disengagement from the Gaza Strip. The core settlement groups hope to return the minute it is acceptable from a security standpoint, explained Boas Haetzni, one of the leaders of the movement.
Haetzni told Haaretz that as soon as the Israel Defense Forces reenters the Gaza Strip, “AND IN OUR ESTIMATION THE ‘BIG OPERATION’ IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME, we will follow them in. We will not ask for permission from anyone. The settlement groups will be ready, and this evening we will start an organized sign-up for them. These core groups will do exactly what the group that re-established Kfar Etzion did after a967: they will return to the lands where they existed in the past, and will rebuild them,” said Haetzni.
In a gathering planned for Tuesday, the settler leaders will read out a declaration stating their intention to RETURN TO BOTH GAZA AND NORTHERN WEST BANK as soon as possible.
The statement also declares the areas BELONG TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE, as an UNNEGOTIABLE DIVINE PROMISE, and are integral to the Land of Israel.
Their statement declares as follows:
We view the RETURN OF JEWISH LIFE to those regions (GAZA and the WEST BANK) as a NATIONAL MISSION and DIVINE COMMANDMENT.”
The current “incursion” was planned a year ago, according to Jerusalem papers.
These “settlers” are camped out on the Israeli side of the border, waiting until the IDF has “completed its mission, ” to rush back into Gaza and rebuild their settlements, by force if need be.
Israel never intended to honor any ceasefire or and UN-approved 2 state solution.
The whole world understands that now.
If you have to ask, you yourself don’t believe what you are saying. Stop and think about your own children and how you would feel if they were one of the children in the pictures. Killing children is never right and just!
Who Will Save Israel From Itself
By Mark LeVine
“after more than 10,000 rockets only 32 Israelis have died”
I am never sure where to go with statements like that. I AM palestinian. Should I be proud because my people have such poor aim?
How sad for you.
Or that the Gazans destroyed green houses and productive structures because Jews built them. Foolishness.
I was ready a sermon my son gave at the church where is the pastor. It was on All Saints Day. After reading his sermon and reflecting on Christian martyrs who died for their faith, I cannot see how Muslim terrorists can be called martyrs. Our martyrs sacrificed their lives, not killing others but serving others and sometimes saving others. Where is the unselfish altruism in Islam?
Why do I need a green house in the desert? Not warm enough for you?
WildChild –
WTH?! Do you not understand farming, gardening, Gaza – all 3?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1025/p04s01-wome.htm
Read and you just might learn some things about the ME.
I’ve read extensively about Israeli desert agriculture. They went so far as to use two layer ridged plastic covering over the greenhouses which had a chemical pumped between the layers that absorbed IR and carried te heat out to cooling ponds. They had to do things like this because its a desert and the standard misting and evaporative systems that are used here and elsewhere in, you know, countries with rain, use up those limited water resources. LOL not that a shit hole like gaza would be have the resources to carry out any of the intensive horticulture that hundreds of commercial greenhouses would require without Israeli support. But hey, it makes for some great propaganda.
Look, we left the poor suffering Palestinians in their gaza shithole some nice new greenhouses, and look what they did to them…
WC…what I find rather interesting is that many of the supporters here of these horrible tactics against innocent baby girls like the one above, have the exact polar opposite view of that of Larry, the blog owner. But yet they persist. Many of them in their comments refuse to even acknowledge her as a human being. Larry should have said, This Should Sicken You and If It Doesn’t Something Is Wrong With You.
It’s easy to rationalize butchery and brutality when the question is placed into term of us verses them. Us always has good and pure motives, and them always has bad and evil motives. I guarantee you that the Israeli’s are say the same thing about the Palestinians as the Palestinian are saying about the Israeli’s. Each is good in their own minds as the other is evil. If this was a conflict among equals maybe we could let them sort it out among themselves. But as long as it’s a beat down of captured people by a sovereign state, its going to take a third party to step in and reestablish justice. Neither side is giving up, neither side is going away and pictures like the above will keep getting taken as there will be no shortage of bodies.
And that third part will be? Barky will either side with Israel if his pattern of flipping continues or he’ll just waffle around, blame Hillary and pass it on to the next president.
WildChild –
Thousands of Palestinians were working at these green houses. Then other Palestinians looted and destroyed them.
Do you really believe Israel, which had to remove some of the Israelis in Gaza at gunpoint, came up with some elaborate plan about leaving greenhouses to be looted and destroyed for propaganda purposes?
Israel said they were going to sell the greenhouses rather then destroy them as was their original plan. Now, if they did sell them, then the guy they sold them to was responsible for their security. However if they didn’t, then they are the ones who left their greenhouses unsecured. It creates a nice grey area in which the greenhouses can be looted by starving Palestinians while Israel gets to walk away looking like the good guy even though the end result is the same as their original plan
Wild Child –
Your scenario is patently absurd.
of course it is LOL. I’m talking about your heroes here. They’re “us” and being “us” they’re motives are always good and pure.
Wild Child –
Where is your evidence of this bizarre scenario you invented in your biased brain?
Please provide evidence before you make accusations.
Where is your cite which outlines this diabolical plan of yours?
My cite? LOL you really think that the Israeli government would provide documentation for something like that. (Bwah Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!!) Is that really what you’re asking me for? My Cite?!?! ROFLMAO
WildChild, JulieD is right on this one, your position in this particular argument is padded room rantings. Give it up or run the risk that you’ll pop up when someone googles “nutburger”.
basically you just said nothing. Nice try sparky.
American Jews bought the greenhouses to be left to the PA which allowed them to be destroyed.
I guess the Crusades never happened.
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=f555be7f-dd65-4941-bfa7-a5197b5e8bbe
Liberate The Palestinians From Hamas
by Bernard-Henri Levy
“…2. The fact that Hamas’ Qassam and, now, its Grad missiles have caused so few deaths does not prove that they are artisanal, inoffensive, etc., but that the Israelis protect themselves, that they live burrowed in the caves of their buildings, under shelter: a nightmarish existence, suspended, with the sound of sirens and explosions. I have been to Sderot: I know.
3. The fact that, inversely, the Israeli shells create so many victims does not mean, as protesters have angrily proclaimed, that Israel is engaging in a deliberate “massacre,” but that the leaders of Gaza have chosen the opposite attitude and are exposing their populations, relying on the old tactic of the “human shield.” Which means that Hamas, like Hezbollah two years ago, is installing its command centers, its arms stockpiles, its bunkers, in the basements of buildings, of hospitals, of schools, of mosques. Efficient but repugnant.
4. There is a capital difference between the combatants that those who want to have a “correct” idea of the tragedy, and of the means to put an end to it, must acknowledge: The Palestinians open fire on cities, or in other words, on civilians (which is called, in international criminal law, a “war crime”); the Israelis target military objectives and cause, without aiming to, horrible civilian casualties (which is called, in the language of war, “collateral damage”–which, even though it is hideous, points to a real strategic and moral dissymmetry)…”
The problem with trying to root out Hamas — no doubt there will be comments later that this is the way to solve the problem — kill Hamas. There is no easy solution to Hamas or WHY Hamas exists. The only way to get rid of Hamas is to provide a real alternative for the Palestinians. Hamas feeds on violence — these photos of dead children don’t need words (other than killed by ….).
The fact is that the only way to eradicate Hamas is to systematically eliminate (kill) all Palestinians living within the real estate many Jews claim their god gave to them. Is Israel willing to go that far to completely eradicate Hamas?
When a power void is created — this will be filled — and there are groups even more radical than Hamas waiting to fill that void. This is a fact of human social organization. There are tribal forces — and alliances.
We saw this happen in Lebanon — Israel occupied and demoralized Lebanon and Hezbollah evolved to fill the void.
Some though that getting rid of Arafat would cure the “problem’. This did not happen. Using force will only make Hamas stronger — and gain recruits.
Israel is in part responsible FOR Hamas — this was THE organization that was supposed to counter the PLO.
Can Hamas be made to behave in the best interest of the Palestinians? As evil as this organization is — unfortunately they are the ones in authority/control. Pressure needs to be put on any outside group or country that supports Hamas to change — to become part of the adult world and stop acting like a Jr. teenage gang.
I personally despise Hamas & other Islamic patriarchal groups — especially their treatment of women — attitude toward women. Perhaps a world wide effort to empower women in a way that weakens the power of the macho patriarchal male? There are a lot of ways to force Hamas to grow up — but it will take GROWN UPS to force them to change.
Someone suggested turning GAZA over to Egypt and the West Bank over to Jordan — and let these countries try to deal with the problems. That was a novel idea for me. That may be a solution — but who can blame Egypt and Jordan for NOT wanting anything to do with the Palestinian problem.
The other option is to find a way to force Hamas to grow up and become a responsible organization — this is not what most people want to hear — but it is clear that the vile & nasty Hamas cannot be bombed into oblivion — then deal with the reality that it has replaced the PLO — and that the groups waiting to fill the void left by Hamas are probably worse.
The real shame is that Israel is wasting resources in this never ending war. They still have the closest to a working Democracy of any Nation in the Middle East — their citizens are better off then the surrounding countries. The COULD be a wonderful example of how Democracy works. I would love to see Israel endure.
NWR, I read Egypt and Jordan were angry when the PLO supported Iraq in the first Gulf War and refused to accept any more refugees. But, it could be, because they have recognized Israel and don’t want problems with Israel or the US. All except one of the countries refuse to allow citizenship to Palestinians.
Israelis conditions for peace:
Palestinian borders that ensure continuing Israeli security from Palestinian attacks, not the 1967 borders,
Israeli control of all of Jerusalem,
Enough Israeli control within Palestinian territories to allow Israel to destroy terrorist networks, and
Prevention of Palestinian refugees from returning to their homelands. Israel continues to control the amount of water and expel Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank for more settlements.
Palestinians demands for peace:
A separate Palestinian state (with the same borders as were in 1967),
Palestinian control of East Jerusalem,
Ending Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory, and
Freedom of Palestinian refugees to return to their homeland.
Neither side is willing to negotiate these conditions so if the rest of the world doesn’t force an agreement (including especially the US)there will be endless war.
I keep wondering why anyone would use articles in the NYT as proof of what both sides are doing since the NYT sold us the Iraq war, is being sued for accusing McCain of having an affair with a lobbyist and is pushing Caroline Kennedy for the senate. They have no credibility left on anything.
If Israel would allow reporters and photographers inside Palestine, the UN could be sure of what’s happening and force sanctions if necessary.
“The real shame is that Israel is wasting resources in this never ending war.”
Yes, and it is a shame Palestine has no resources. If they did, they might have some friends. All they’ve had for years is the PLO, Hamas and war.
This is incorrect. Palestine has made numerous concessions. Israel has made none. They do not want peace. The Gaza strip itself should be proof of that.
Mr X, I’m aware of the concessions Palestine has made. I certainly am not taking the Israeli side in this conflict and don’t believe they will “win” or succeed in destroying their enemies since they are making new ones everyday. There was a report this weekend about Israel asking the US permission to bomb Iran and, miracle of miracles, Bush said no and there was no bombing. If our government continues to just say no to Israel and will stop using the veto in the UN Security Council to protect them from resolutions condemning this aggression, they can be forced into a cease fire and to the table for real, good faith peace negotiations. The US abstained from voting on the last resolution and that’s a step in the right direction also. I agree they have been unwilling to concede anything to Palestine in many years. The Golan Heights and Sinai were not a concession since they were part of the peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan. The settelments continue to expand in the West Bank and Gaza has been subject to Israeli government from the beginning. It is a nightmare.
Larry and Susan:
I am so proud that NoQ continues to stand front and center to speak out against this inhumane slaughter against innocent women and children. It seems that you are one of the FEW that have the guts to bring this information to the public. As long as we continue to give Israel billions of dollars and supply them with arms to destroy innocent human life
then America will have blood on her hands.
Thanks to both of you for having the courage to speak your mind and bring us this information ( even though several of your readers disagree) Don’t BACK DOWN.
You are so right! Good of you to point this out. NQ rocks with truth and justice. That has become a rare commodity these days.
Amen, IndyRobin. I want to second that appreciation to Larry and Susan for having the courage to allow a free and open discussion, with all perspectives being allowed to be presented. It almost NEVER is the case, with “comments are closed” being the most familiar scenario.
I’d like to THIRD that appreciation to Larry and Susan.
They see through the propaganda, and stand for what’s right for AMERICA.
Thank goodness there’s a blog that does.
Does the Holocaust legitimize Israel’s tactics?
Is what happened to the Jews — the Holocaust — worst than what happened to the American Indians — the American Holocaust?
In fact the American Indian Holocaust was the model that Hitler used in a attempt to find a “solution” to his problem. BUT not only Jews were taken to concentration camps and the Ovens — the Gypsies also were rounded up and exterminated. We rarely hear about the death of the Gypsies. And the Gays were part of Hitler’s solution.
In that statement (quoted in the post above) I am showing that if Israel really does try to root out and eliminate Hamas — that they would have to slaughter thousands. Or they could kill all of the adults while removing the children. In America this was done — it was called Killing the Indian to save the child.
The simplistic statement often made about killing Hamas — if followed to the logical conclusion is America’s solution to the American Indian “problem”. It didn’t matter that the eastern Indians had mostly converted to the white way — they were still rounded up and marched off and the survivors were dumped in “Indian Territory” or Oklahoma with NOTHING. Only the old folks who had survival skills helped the displaced Indians to survive.
There is never a justification for any of the Holocausts.
” BUT not only Jews were taken to concentration camps and the Ovens — the Gypsies also were rounded up and exterminated. We rarely hear about the death of the Gypsies. And the Gays were part of Hitler’s solution.”
This reminded me of Pink Floyd, “In the Flesh” from The Wall:
Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There’s one in the spotlight, he don’t look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one’s a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There’s one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I’d have all of you shot!
Yes–God help us.
But the argument cannot be that Israel is wrong because there are far more victims on the other side. This does not wash. A government needs to protect its citizens and must not wait to act until there is some parity in terms of victims on both sides.
Your arguing generealities.
There is a specific against Israeil methods, and a need to analyze realistically, what is occurring.
When the greater Israeli infrastructre is suffering due to a lack of abilty in understanding HOW it is being gamed, or warred, if you will, pretending Israel exists in a vaccum, it would indicate something is not working when no steps are taken to correct the situation, despite the mlitary efforts over the past 40 years, Israel is still in a state of decline, worse now, than ever.
No one’s going to save Israel, they’re not being subject to a Holocaust, this time, this time, per Larry’s article, they’re being destroyed from within. And I’m sorry for the bluntness, but I hear these methods justified in the name of self preservation, but now they’re destroying the state by forcing the Israeli government into a series of bad moves, asymmetrically, leaving it without ANY protections when, ten years from now, all aid is removed, and guns can’t be bought, because the world is revolted by these actions against Palestine.
Do you think the Soviets don’t see this a a military move, or others, advising the Arabs, or those hostile toward Israel? Do you think they’re not sophisiticated enough?
So then what?
Israeli is being gamed, warred, if you will, the same way the US neocons were – we, here, and others, we among the first to decry Cheney’s methods, in part because we SAW what was happening to the US government, and military. As is, we STILL have this huge economic and military situation that must be solved.
And Israel will be different because?
It won’t.
It will fall.
Perception can also be reality.
I can’t wait for Hillary to be confirmed on Jan 18th. She is 100% behind Israel and can be a huge help in getting to the bottom of this. Rise Hillary.
Huh?… Brevity is the soul of wit. You lost me at the second sentence of unnecessarily big words. I don’t understand what you were trying to say: ‘Israel being in a vacuum,’ because if they were, they wouldn’t be trying to fight terrorists they be working to turn the desert into even more of a paradise than it was 60 years ago.
Who cares if what the Israelis are doing is self preservation or not, the Israelis have won countless wars for the land in the past 60 years, then gifted it to the Palestinians who in a matter of months disolved their unity, distroied their infastructure, and began waging civil wars against each other. Obviously they suck just as much, if not more, at maintaining steady growth than Isreal.
As for the Israeli’s buying guns, they have their own munitions plants and have the Tavor Assault Riffle, an all Israeli made model, as well as their own tank, and a large unifromed army to back it.
So the point of this blog is about Israel, so why bring in US neocons and US politics to the wrong blog?
correct, brigitte; if that logic was true the winner of almost every war would necessarily be in the morally wrong position, since they have usually suffered fewer casualties.
While this would never happen because it makes to much sense. the isreali’s and the parents of palastines have a common problem. Too bad they won’t work together to solve it. Hamas seem to be the clear offender, in this equations on both sides. They threw these missles at Isreal to get this response, to get these pictures, am i the only grizzly momma to want to rip the throats out of those who thought my babies safety and wellbeing was secondary to proving isreal is real is mean? This should not be allowed. No ones child should be used to prove a political point, its offensive. Kids do not ask to be here , there for it is up to the parent to assure that their children have the best and safest lives possible.
Golda Meir famously said “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” Setting up rocket sites beside schools would seem to show they aren’t there yet.
Larry..
You are Right to Show this and Show People who do not Bury thier head in the sand and Blind theselfs…the REAL WORLD..
The POINT to me is…The WHOLE ARAB/MUSLIM World is watching this and Growing OUTRAGED>>and INFLAMED…and Strapping on thier BOMB BELTS Right Now..
Exactly What HAMAS and IRAN Want…Thats why they lay the TRAPS they do…The IDF arent Just Killing Innocent Chidren and Civilians…TRhey are KILLING Israel…by Handing HAMAS The Sword that Will Kill Them..
Yep. Hamas is the instigator in this situation. They are setting a trap.
There is more than what meets the eye.
Israel broke the truce, not Hamas.
Why are you blaming Israel for HAMAS not evacuating its people. ISrael always let them know when an attack is imminent. Can you tell me when does HAMAS call up Israel and say I will attack this city now?
HAMAS leaders should be tried for crimes against humanity.
Israel always evauate Israelis.
Also, where are all the pictures of bullet riddled Palistinians that were murdered by other Palistinians? At least one third of the Palistinian deaths in this never ending mess, have been at the hands of other Palistinians.
andrew, below are a few of what you are asking about. These videos show the Hamas vs Fatah civil war that is going on, the killing of civilians and what’s getting skewed to appear as if Israel is to blame for the deaths of civilians. These animals are savage barbarians belonging to the cult of Islam. Video 5A has a civilian in want of the Israelis to come and save them ….never will this be seen or heard of from our liberal media.
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0njhAjeRuv4&feature=PlayList&p=4ED1C4EC709B4B52
You do realize, that when Arafat’s PLO and Fatah weren’t “cooperative,” Israel supported Hamas (financially and otherwise) as a counter-organization to undermine them.
Divide and conquer.
We all know where Israel learned THAT technique.
andrew191 –
Great question! Makes me think someone is WILDLY biased against Israel…
Bias? In the media? I’m shocked!
Israel “believes” they have a right to this land because they are “the chosen ones” America “believes”
that the sky is going to open up, some dead guy in a robe is going to swoop down and bring them all up to an imaginary kingdom they call heaven.
I believe this is a distorted major one psychiatric disorder and they both are in need of psychotropic medication immediately.
Innocent people are dying for a massive state of delusion.
Are you Muslim?
If this question is to me … IndyRobin … the answer is no, I am not Muslim.
I was curious because you seem to fault religion but only the Jewish faith and the Christian faith. Where do you see Islam’s role in this?
Thank you rw for being so kind and respectful with your question.
I believe anyone who thinks they are going to heaven to meet up with 47 virgins ( or whatever the number) happen to be just as mentally ill as other delusional states of consciousness
For me this is a civil rights issue. One does not starve, kill, refuse medical attention, oppress people by cutting off fuel, water and the basic necessities of survival and expect these same people to sit quietly and watch their children die. These are the conditions they have lived in for YEARS while the entire world ignores these crimes against humanity. Eventually they WILL fight back and that is what we have now with Palestine. They are fighting back because they have nothing to lose. Not saying it’s right … just a fact.
I am NOT condoning their behavior. I am in the minority when I say I understand their reaction. America has ignored the systematic killing of Palestinians for many years due to their own religious belief system.
rw … I wrote quite a long response to your question. Not sure why it has not been printed.
Give me the short version.
K … first; I said “thank you” for being so nice and respectful with your question.
Second; I said that anyone who believes that they are going to heaven to hook up with 47 virgins ( or whatever the number) is suffering from a major mental illness just as the rest
Third; This to me, is a civil rights issue.
Palestinians have been systematically staved, killed, jailed, denied the basic necessities for survival including food, water, medical care etc for YEARS while the world has IGNORED their plight.
Forth; I do not for one second condone their eventual actions but I do understand what drove them to their radical
response.
I agree with you. How many rounds of this are we going to see…how much destruction will it take….I guess the question is what is stopping the world community from forcing a solution. Notice I said forcing.
I got thrown off by your remark on the two religions…
Nothing will change UNTIL America finally STOPS adding to the destruction by giving Israel billions each year and selling them Arms for the massacre. My biggest fear is that is IS too late. Their hatred may never go away. I mean really, all we have to do is COUNT ..
350 million Americans and how many BILLION Muslims?
Jeeze .. we need to wake the fuck up.
Sorry for the curse
Arms selling is big business, if the US stops selling arms to Israel, some other country will step in: EU, Russia, China.
There are reasons why both sides have not reached final concrete solutions. Besides the internal factions in each side that are not interested in peace, what outside parties involved are interested in keeping the fight going…
Hmmm … maybe as far as the Arms ( but I doubt it) I think Israel does this with Americas support and if we stop the money and supplying them the weapons they will have no choice but to stop the killing. To be honest, I don’t even believe that Israel has a right to be there. I think they should leave. I know this is very radical and most disagree…lol
Probably rather than just arms in billions, it is more the weight of having the supper power behind them that gives Israel strength on the world stage vs some Arab neighbors.
As far as Israel being a nation in Palestine, if we look at every country there is something in its creation that is not “just” and could very well be undone. Why the US is not more forceful in pressing for the two state solution escapes me.
Thanks so much for your insight and “conservation”. Nice to find such a level headed intelligent person to discuss the issue with.
Signing off .. take care.
Peace be with you.
Indy – you might not have heard and it may be that you won’t believe it, but that ‘dead guy in a robe’ arose and is lives even today. I respect that you have chosen to deny this possibility, but I ask that you please not liken those who believe in Christ as having a psychiatric disorder. ok?
I have no words.
But you are correct in stating that those pictures (and many like them) will rally the Arab and Muslim world against Israel.
Again, Israel is using a bazooka to swat a fly. Hamas is a problem, but it is not the images of dead Hamas leaders that people see…
I can’t look at this… I know it exists, but I can’t look.
After looking at these pics, I wish someone would explain to me the stance that the US Government is taking in this.
Is this what the government took a pass on and could not find the consciousness to vote against, or to vote to stop this?
The US government, led by Bush-the-lesser, merely says “Israel has a right to defend its citizens.”
That’s it.
But the rest of the world is turning against such bland support for “anything goes.”
And it’s not just Muslim nations. It’s Austria and Costa Rica calling for sanctions against Israel, this time.
And every single day America makes the above single-sentence comment, with nothing else, denigrates our image in the world even more.
We voted “abstain” on the Security Council resolution for an immediate ceasefire.
Every other nation voted FOR. ALL of them.
A shameful day for the United States.
Why are you blaming Israel for HAMAS not evacuating its people. ISrael always let them know when an attack is imminent. Can you tell me when does HAMAS call up Israel and say I will attack this city now?
HAMAS leaders should be tried for crimes against humanity.
I hope at the end of this conflict Israel gives the GAZA strip back to FATAH and the PA.
So it was the fault of the Jewish leaders in the WARSAW ghetto for not evacuating the women and children? WHERE were they supposed to go? The Jews were sealed up in that Ghetto.
Gaza is a ghetto — lots of people and no where to go. They can’t even go to the beach.
Please educate yourself on the issues, geography and conditions before making stupid comments.
Israel is hurting herself — and I for one want Israel to survive. With better leadership they can be an example of a Democratic Nation.
You can leave the PA. I have been coming and going to it my whole life. When the conflict is hot its harder, but its not a prison camp.
Personally I would like arab countries to take more immigrants from Palestine, but they dont, each for its own reason according to its own agenda.
The PA is bad in its own unique way and comparisons to the warsaw ghetto (I hear them a lot lately) are incorrect and unnecessarily inflammatory in my opinion.
Rise above the desire to exploit yesterdays victims for todays tragedies.
The rest of the Arab world is more than happy that the Hamas issue is thus far relegated to warring with the Israelis. Just so long as they fire on the Israeli’s they aren’t busy demanding anything from the other Arabs ….
“Personally I would like arab countries to take more immigrants from Palestine, but they dont, each for its own reason according to its own agenda.”
Why should other Arab nations take in Palestinians? Do they Palestinians not have a right to live in their land? Give them their country.
I don’t know but, I don’t think it would fare too well to ask Latin American nations to take in US native Americans.
I don’t know but, I don’t think it would fare too well to ask Latin American nations to take in US native Americans.
Pull your indignant head out of your ignorant ass.
If the DR was having a tragedy, you don’t think that one of its neighbors would accept the refugees? What about during the war with Lebanon? Are you just pretending to be stupid?
Let’s have a clean conversation, OK. No need for the scum mouth…
Your point was ludicrous. Is that more respectful?
We are not talking about relocating people thousands of miles away or doing it permanently.
May I ask a question? Did you think that the hurricane Katrina victims should have stayed in Louisiana when the citizens of other states were willing to reach out and assist? The point would be — to those who aren’t so blinded by their hatred of Israel to see it — is that the rest of the Arab world doesn’t seem to want to lift a finger to assist the “Palestinian People.”
a while back Larry wrote that he wanted to keep the dialogue at a level of civility, so I’m abiding by it.
Her point was why do the Palestians have to leave? Why don’t they have the right to be there?
Or his point.
Northwest rain –
You need to research WWII, specifically the Warsaw pogrom. The people there were exterminated in a matter of months.
They would have been thrilled to have what the Palestinians have today.
The Third Reich would have annihilated the Palestinians decades ago.
Hundreds of thousands of people were killed in Warsaw.
Hamas has a Charter calling for the annihilation of Israel among other horrific things.
With a Charter like that why do you think that it’s Israel that needs better leadership?
Israel has shown amazing restraint.
Much more than the US or any other world power would exhibit if they were constantly being attacked by rockets and mortars.
Evacuate? Where are they going to go? Please tell us.
Calling up someone and saying to get out because we may bomb you is psychological warfare. You think that’s humane?
And the Gaza Strip isn’t Israel’s to give.
There have been Palestinian refugees in Jordan and Syria for 60 years. They are not assimilated because they are not citizens and refugees are expected to return home. As far as Palestinians evacuating or going into bomb shelters as the Israelis do for their citizens, they are turned back or routed to war areas by the Israelis. Bomb shelters are usually holes in the ground and those are considered tunnels by the Israelis when Palestinians try to build them which I believe was the reason for this latest offensive action. The Palestinians cannot do anything even defensively that is not considered an act against Israel. Are the Palestinians without fault? Absolutely not. But when everything they do is seen as an act against Israel, the Israelis look paranoid and weak. Military force is no longer effective if it ever was.
Elliott, I still don’t get something. So you’re telling me that the Israelis have a large level of intel, so large in fact that they can also force Palestinians into a consolidated location, long enough for an attack aircraft to come and bomb them? How does that work when CNN reports the city is just being encircled? Also, if the Israelis were really doing that, wouldn’t the Palestinian news networks be going crazy with footage of it, instead of footage of crappy CPR with no blood?
Of course a defensive will be considered against Israel, afterall, a defensive move in a war is an attack. Lets examine what started all of this: rocketing isralis,killing isrealis at the olympics, or bombing Israeli night clubs all of which was not provoked by anything.
This is a part of the world where ugly happens daily. And its not the only part of the world where this is the case.
In such places it is impossible to raise yourself up except by accident of birth or extreme thuggery or both. Win win thinking simply does not exist. If you can beat your chest enough and force enough people to get in line behind you, you and your tribe rise.
When one big thug rises to the top we have stability for a while. Stability is the best outcome available, these folks arent all going to come to their senses and form a civil society founded on the ideals of the enlightment.
Blame Israel if you like, its fashionable. But had Israel never existed they would be finding some other excuse to do their thing. Best book I ever read that helped me understand this mindset was Patai’s “The Arab Mind”.
You say you’re Palestinian, but you say
“they” would be finding some other exuse to do “their” thing.
Do you not consider the Palestinaians your people or not?
I reject tribalism and thuggery, period, because it is the source of most of the problems in this region.
I am not sure what “my people” means to you, but I usually dont like the term and what it implies as a next step – that some people are not my people and should be treated differently and held to different standards.
I am an American citizen by choice, and I am proud to be and appreciate the welcome I have received in this country.
By “they” I mean the thugs at the top of the heap, trying to stay there in any way they can. In the PA this would currently be Hamas, but the role has been filled by others in the past and will be filled by others in the future. “Their thing” is grab what they can for “their people” while keeping everyone else’s people down.
I didn’t mean anything offensive or superior by saying “your people”. I was just asking since you said you ARE Palestinian.
That’s pretty much all leaders these days.
This is truly tragic. There are no words.
What can an ordinary citizen do? Who can we write? Who can we call? I feel so impotent.
Since before Israel declared itself a state Palestinians have been in a resistance mode. A resistance knows it is militarily weaker and is at a disadvantage from the inception of any encounter, greater loses are expected – it’s part of the equation. I agree, this will not weaken the Palestinians. The question is, what direction will their resistance take.
so how many isrealis have to die before they can strike back?
Max –
It has to be exactly an eye for an eye/Even Stevens – don’t you know? Isn’t that how you win a war?
Actually most Israelis should die and never strike back because contrary to their Charter, Hamas terrorists will be really sweet neighbors then and won’t annihilate them.
You only get to call them terrorist because they are a captured people and not citizens of a sovereign state. As citizens of a sovereign state, you’d have to call them soldiers. But you know as well as I do, calling them terrorists has a much higher propaganda value.
Wild Child –
I call Hamas terrorists because that is what they are.
right, like I said they are a captured people so you get to call them terrorists. That works out quite nicely for Israel too because they certainly seem intent on perpetuating the captured people status of the Palestinians
Very good question.I think the general idea is that they can never strike back.
They are supposed to allow themselves to be innihilated just as was attempted in the 1949 War and the Six Day War. Oh yes, and in the Holocaust too. What in the world has happened to those silly little Jews? Don’t they know they’re not supposed to fight back!
Similar Photos..have been shown Thousands of time of Nazi death camp Victims…and Documentarys of all Kinds on the holocost and the holocst Memorials have been done…in the Main stream American Media..
But Never any o Isreals Victim..Nothing like larry just put Up..We all Known Why The American media will not do that…its used for Propoganda…we have Ours..they have thiers..
Heck..Our Media even Controled Public opion on the Bush Invasion of IRAQ…and helped the AMERICAN Neo Cons DUMMY the Intel to justify doing it…at what Cost…then Supported the Neo Con attack and exsposres of Valorie Plame and joe Wilson….Didn’t question Congress on Oversights…and let the Economy Collapse…because it makes good media…
Oh…and Played a “MINOR” Role in Getting the saciour barack Obama Elected too…
So…We all Watch Football…Vote the3 Way we are Proigrammed too…and support the State of Israel Right or Wrong.. because it has Some “Minor” Influece in American government and American Society..Oh..and on wall Street too..and hollywood…and i expect more jewish Holocost films soon on a MSM Station…
Gotta stir people up enough so they will shout “Crucify Him…Crucify Him”…
Even at thier Own Peril..Historically Recorded…
go for it.
Rest their souls; the little ones,
Who’s trust is given without question.
—-
How can a “nation” have two non-contiguous “states”? and “live side by side” when that which divides it is it’s reason to exist?
Exactly what is in Israel’s long term interest?
The the use of a nuclear weapon against Japan?
Photos of Hamas kidnapping children for use as human shields
Who is violating international law? Who has raped the Geneva Convention? This video will answer that question beyond any shadow of a doubt.
Disgusting.
Hamas and the other Islamists are war criminals, plain and simple. These photos are proof.
These photos are pure propaganda. There is not one ounce of credibility that supports this claim
Hmmmmm. Do you have a basis for your statements or merely expressing an opinion? I could say the same thing about half of the pictures like the ones Larry has posted here. What do you say, bucky?
Bucky?? Lol .. hey beebop, how are you?
Yeah, cause there’s no WAY that children could be killed in all that bombing!
My reply was meant for beebop
I’m sorry but how can you say one set of photographs and accusations has absolutely no credibility but another set of images is indisputable proof of Israel’s war crimes?
And comparing this conflict to the Warsaw Ghetto? I don’t remember the Jews firing rockets into Germany or stating it’s aim was to “wipe Germany off the map.”
Children dying in any armed conflict from any side is tragic. There’s no doubt about that. But please, let us not forget the bloody history leading up to this.
There’s the fighting on the ground. And then, there’s the CNN effect that Hamas is waging for the hearts and minds of the West. Frankly, I don’t think they give a hoot for the indigenous population.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. And apologizing for that fact is absolutely obscene.
Terrorism is unacceptable, period. Or did anyone feel sympathy and/or make excuses for the perpetrators of 9/11?
I sure as hell didn’t!
Bless you Peggy Sue!
I’m confused. Death of children is a shame, yes. No one would ever deny that.
But isn’t Israel the country where suicide bombers (Hamas & other terrorist organizations) have been suicide bombing since…well….years and years? The country where they consistently kill men, women and children on pleasant afternoons in the open air market that is so popular and so civilian?
Isn’t Hamas the organization who said they would never stop, whose charter includes a determination to kill all Jews, and who repeatedly refuse to agree to peace treaties?
Here, here! I was just going to say very similar.
Children do die in wars. Hamas also targets children.
What are you trying to accomplish here at No Quarter. Are we trying to make sure the entire world is against Israel?
I am telling you that if we would like to assist in the destruction of Israel, we will not survive ourselves.
Why don’t we just end all wars? Why doesn’t the US completely disarm? I’ll tell you why. We will always continue to have to defend ourselves. Israel will as well.
What hopey changey kool aid have people been drinking?
There is no peace coming to the Middle East or the world for that matter, especially with the insertion of BHO as our leader.
What is going on here? Most people really seem to believe we can just tell Israel to play nice and they will and then Hamas will, too? What is the answer?
I believe we aqre going to see a FORCED Winding down of the Current Conflict after Israel finishs what what It is determined to do with GAZA…
They will continue as long as they want or until they feel they have accomplished enough Damage…to force Gaza to settle down (Until Next time)….
I think the Next Step will be Negotations…Obamas Inaugeration and Quick start Role in all The Various Arenas He faces…including Iraq…Afghanistan..and the middle ast…look for lots of State department and Hilklary Clinton activity out the gate and Trips to the Middle east…Heavy UN Debates…NEGOTIATIONS…Deals..even by Arab and Muslim Countrys…and bringing tension Down several pegs..Then the Peace Plan that bring opptomism and HOPE…
Remember HOPE…
Then rapid Efforts to force iran to back down or the US and Israel will Take out Iran..andhamas and then Force peace deals…
After that…Lots of efforts in Africa..Europe..Asia and S America..
Home front…Big NEW DEals Projects…Job Corps…Government spending…Hiring and Pumping people Up…It will all be Broad and Sweeping everywhere..
Obama and His Adminitartion will get wWide Spread domestic and international Support..
Next Phase…..Crys of Peace at Lat..Peace at Last…
Phase after that…Dirty and UGLY…
Growing and continued Natural disasters…
‘Sounds like a job for Superwoman and a SOS for our Hillary. YES SHE WILL.
Correct but nobody gets outraged when Jews die in a marketplace in Haifa or a school.
Yes they do. Every death of an innocent is an outrage. But is an eye for an eye the only answer? In every conflict someone has go first and give a little. The wiser and better person does that and shows that it is not a weakness.
You may want to read up on Irgun.
Both sides are doing bad things. We are not excusing anyone. My point in the piece above is what this dynamic does for Israel. You seem to ignore that.
LJ,
Thanks for the graphics. There is no excuse for the death of innocents.
I’m still working on how paying people not to fire rockets into Israel would work.
Ok, I know the people doing this are in need of money, they are also members of Hamas. I am reasonably sure Hamas would not allow access to these weapons if the person (looking for money) could not be trusted.
If I were that person in Gaza, I would take your money feed to my family and keep firing rockets. With a smile on my face.
If, as a man, I can not provide for my family, I am a failure. If I am unable to provide for my family because I am being denied the basic essenstials by Israel…well off to “work” I go.
Hell of a dynamic. “What happens in Gaza stays in Gaza” in not gonna work.
Israel is not to concerned with the political fall out. They seem diplomatically numb to it at this point.
So to back up your point of a thousand cuts….
What a lesson in global politics. Be great if we had a USA President with moral authority at this time vs. a puppet fraud who cares about himself only.
Hillary, we’ll be looking forward to you educating us about foreign relations some more. Hillary has knowledge, experience and COMPASSION. She would be speaking out about these women and children if she were the rightful PE. I’ll be anything she is working relentlessly to put all the people in place to present solutions for this war. Main concern is USA cannot stop this madness. Israel and Palestine and surrounding nations must want peace more than they want women and children killed, however some of them use the innocent as shields.
There’s only one villain here and it is not Israel. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
LiveLeak: On television, Hamas leaders call on children to move into line of fire.
Haaretz: IDF discovers entire school booby-trapped by Hamas.
New York Post: Gaza’s Demons:
The only barbarians killing kids is Hamas and their ideological cousins in Pakistn, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Phillipines, on and on and on.
Heron39-
I question everything that has been written in those articles that you cite above.
I dont mean to be rude however- until the international journalists are given access into Gaza and are allowed to report and photograph events as they are occurring- I will not be able to accept any of these stories.
I want external verification of the facts stated above before I believe one word.
Especially when it keeps saying “their God”.
Thank you. Very eloquent in your response
Picture 1 & 3 above — Her Name Was Kaukab Al Dayah, she was only 4 years old.
With all the ’sophisticated arms’ Israel has that have been supplied to them by the U.S, Israel’s military instead chooses to use WWII era German Nazi war tactics of ‘collective punishment’. Larry, ‘Counter-battery’ isn’t in the Israeli vocabulary, however ‘collective punishment’ cruelty is. There is no excuse for the carnage Israel on Gaza, What Israel is doing are defined as ‘war crimes’.
The ‘Nakiba’ in pictures.
http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/
Freedom , FREE COUNTRIES FROM AN OPPRESSOR ?
the european jews wanted their country back, after all why not, they were merciless sent erants on the roads of Europe, to mingle and blend with gauls, britons , germans , happy pagans who probably took a very dim view of those “forriners”, later on when those barbarians become christians, the fate of the hetreogenous population was sealed. Not only were they not ONE OF US, they were the people who had dared to crucify their God. Jews for 2000, dod suffer not only avulsion from their legitimate homeland, but be obliged to interact with countries and people who did not want them in the first stance. So this very obvious fact led to 1947 and Isreal “NEW LOOK.”
ONE CAN UNDERSTAND WHY ISREALIS DONT WANT 130A.
D. BACK…
but time and sapce is not a void, within 2000, the homeland became the homeland of other people, like Spain became homeland not only to Iberico-celts, but also to Wisigoths and even arabs, France is a blend of gaul-Roman-Frank-Norman invasion. Basques still claim for a country and Irish people in Northern Ireland Orangists and IRA try to find a modis vivendi.
Either you accept to blend or dull and overall you may succeed at the end, allowing your kids to be vereything and enjoy each perk of every culture or you want your country and then problem rises.
The only way for Peace to have a chance is to cut inside each country and yes the scalpel is going to hurt and yes either Jerusalem is in for an international status allowing each ereligious group to be able to pray in such a small space as it will be accepted by each creed better share a little than get nothing.
Anyone who is looking at the map, can see why palestine does not work, Dantzig corridor did not work for Poland in 1939.
Instaed on crying, each people are going to cry and yes the map must be redrawn and be clear cut and populations must be awre that it hurst also very badly on the other side to accept its own pain.
Will Obama , Blair , Clinton and Sarkozy BE ABLE TO BROKER THAT PAINFUL TREATY? ONE CAN ONLY HOPE.
bUT THOSE CHILDREN , those innocent children cant but raise not only the rage of their families, friends, countrymen and the arab streets , it is also actually waking up the hydra of antisemitism back in europe back exactly when and how it began.
Far from me the idea I could entertain those ideas, but on less educated, mor gut-feeling people, it awakes the very causes of why antisemtism started in europe.
Jews were accused of molesting christian kids, jews were accused ,if I rememeber in the dark ages to be cause of the death of young princelings and were sent away from the country that was their own since 500years. Whoever in Isreal is allowing this twisted plot is playing a very dangerous dice game.
Dont wake up the real beast, Hitler was a mad man, and I believe that Israel has indeed the right to its own country re-establish, but by killing children it gives cause to its enemies to query why a religious group should have a country when other faiths blend happily in the rest on the world…
http://www.cactus48.com/OriginMSW.pdf
Jews for Justice in the Middle East:
“In 1938 a thirty-one nation conference was held in Evian, France, on resettlement of the victims of Nazism. The World Zionist Organization refused to participate, fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”
“It was summed up in the meeting [of the Jewish Agency's Executive on June 26, 1938] that the Zionist thing to do ‘is belittle the [Evian] Conference as far as possible and to cause it to decide nothing…We are particularly worried that it would move Jewish organizations to collect large sums of money for aid to Jewish refugees, and these collections could interfere with our collection efforts’…Ben-Gurion’s statement at the same meeting: ‘No rationalization can turn the conference from a harmful to a useful one. What can and should be done is to limit the damage as far as possible.’” Israeli author Boas Evron, “Jewish State or Israeli Nation?”
“[Ben-Gurion stated] ‘If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second – because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.’ In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented that ‘the human conscience’ might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany. He saw this as a threat and warned: ‘Zionism is in danger.’” Israeli historian, Tom Segev, “The Seventh Million.”
“Even David Ben-Gurion’s sympathetic biographer acknowledges that Ben-Gurion did nothing practical for rescue, devoting his energies to post-war prospects. He delegated rescue work to Yitzak Gruenbaum, who [stated]…’They will say that I am anti-Semitic, that I don’t want to save the Exile, that I don’t have a varm Yiddish hartz…Let them say what they want. I will not demand that the Jewish Agency allocate a sum of 300,000 or 100,000 pounds sterling to help European Jewry. And I think that whoever demands such things is performing an anti-Zionist act.’ “Zionists in America…took the same position. At a May 1943 meeting of the American Emergency Committee for Zionist Affairs, Nahum Goldmann argued, ‘If a drive is opened against the White Paper (the British policy of restricting Jewish immigrants to Palestine) the mass meetings of protest against the murder of European Jewry will have to be dropped. We do not have sufficient manpower for both campaigns.’” Peter Novick, “The Holocaust in American Life.”
“I have already gone exhaustively into the reason for our being here, reasons that I as a pioneer of 1906 can affirm have nothing to do with the Nazis!…We are here because the land is ours. And we are here because we have again made it ours in this time with the work we have put into it. Nazism and our history of martyrdom abroad do not concern our presence in Israel directly.” David Ben-Gurion, “Memoirs.”
Unfortunately, the land has not been theirs since 70 AD. They were defeated and dispersed by the Roman Empire as others were defeated and slaughtered who refused to assimilate. They have no legitimate claim on that land that would supersede the rights of people who are living there.
If one thing is apparent from history, governments do not have “rights” to exist.
There have been Jews living there since before 70 AD, just as there have been Arabs and others living there also. They have as much right to the land as the arabs do.
Britain was in charge of that territory and divided it up between Israel, Palestine and Jordan. the Arabs living there did not “own” it when it was divided, they just refused to accept it as Jordan and Israel did.
Excellent article Larry.
Thank you.
One suggestion:
I wish there was a way to get the names and ages of these innocent children posted on these photos and then…
I wish there was a way to make sure members of our US Congress had the chance to see these photos (AND more photos of all the other children killed).
I wish our Congress members who support what Israeli zionists are doing- or are afraid to speak out against it- I wish that their family members get access to these photos. I want to know how in God’s name they will be able to justify (to their own spouses, children, parents) their position on this issue and explain why they (Congress members) are not doing everything possible to stop this slaughter.
These children are not merely statistics. Its a shame the international press is not allowed into Gaza to write about and photograph what is happening.
I wish that anyone who feels the need to serve as an apologist for the zionists -I wish this person can explain to us why the international journalists are not allowed into Gaza to tell the story that needs to be told???
There are many people-INCLUDING JEWISH PEOPLE- and even some Israelis – who are questioning what on earth is going on in Gaza and why…for what???
Larry, I know we disagree in a civil manner but my first thought on seeing those images is why did Hamas cut their heads off.
No observers allowed in by Hamas or Israel. Anything coming out is supplied by the Hamas PR machine.
New Hampster-
I could be wrong but-when I look at the photo of the child with his/her mouth open- it looks to me as if this child may have been buried alive under rubble caused by a blast and has been recently dug up.
If you look below the chin of the child, I see what appears to be black or brown sweater buried under the rubble. The child’s body has not been completely dug up from under the rubble.
athy,
What you see is the child’s decapitated head sitting on top of the rubble. She was only 4 years old. Her name is Kaukab Al Dayah.
And she did not elect Hamas.
J-
I am not so sure…
Check out this photo:
http://www.aztlan.net/israel_kills_children.htm
Actually, as shocking as the photographs are, that is not a child’s decapitated head. She is indeed buried to the neck. There are more photos in the series posted on Getty Images that show the girl’s body in the pit, her body (with head attached) being carried by a man, etc.
Larry Johnson should’ve specified what this picture portrayed, given that anyone’s first reaction would be that it’s a disembodied head.
Don’t blame Larry for people’s reactions.
Are you going to blame Larry that people think Hamas cut her heaf off as propaganda?
I’m not blaming Larry for anything. I just happen to think that this particularly gruesome image should be accurately described.
I have called two other bloggers to task for this.
So it really matters to you if the girl was decapitated vs being crushed to death?
She’s dead. It’s gruesome regardless of the manner in which she died.
It matters to me, yes. Dude, haven’t you seen two people on this very thread insist she was decapitated? I know you have, because you offered a different reading of the image… which happened to be the correct one.
When Larry says this image is “horrific” and sickening, I’m pretty sure it’s the illusion of decapitation that makes it so. Decapitation and dismemberment are special insults to human dignity, and the image of them is especially upsetting emotionally. Particularly if we’re talking about a little girl.
In what has become as much a propaganda war as a shooting war, what’s wrong with me insisting on accuracy in this matter?
Dude, I’m a girl.
Nothing wrong with you insisting accuracy. But Larry didn’t say she was decapitated, nor in my opinion imply it.
And the picture in the middle barely even shows injuries, but it’s still horrific. That doesn’t mean decapitation.
Dude, I’m a girl.
My apologies. I usually pride myself on my ability to tell the difference.
Let me repeat, though, that the head image in particular is turning up on other blogs — including a couple of blatantly anti-Semitic blogs — and always it is left to the reader’s imagination to figure out what the image conveys.
I had to go searching myself through the Getty Images website to see the other pictures in the series. Because I, too, on first look assumed I was looking at a disembodied head. It registered, for that reason, as especially shocking.
New Hampster –
That’s what I was wondering when I read Pat Lang’s article and he said Hamas wouldn’t allow international observers.
I don’t know about the pics/heads, but I do think that Hamas has nefarious reasons for not wanting international observers.
The Palestinian HAMAS chickenshits are using little children as human shields. This is why so many children are dying.
I say break out the bulldozers and plow every last one of these terrorist scumbags into the Mediterranean sea.
Great thought. Do they swim?
Sure…Thats the Game….The JiHaddist line the women and kids up..after taunting Israel daily…israel obliges by Blowing em up ..to get a few hamas…and hey…those Kids are just future Bombers anyhow..Right..??
Tell Me Not One person in Israel or the IDF Thinks that Way..
Inmature and Unrealistic avoidance of Truth and How the game is Played…Wars have been Brutal forever…the Prsians put large hooks through the lips of thier Prisoners..tied to Ropes… and made them Walk across the dessert to Become Slaves…
The End game …The USA ..(and Christians) are Manipulated to help the Israelis WIN thir game.through various Jewish and Israeli Influences..
By EXTREMISTS…
.
(even tho they are Anti Christ)..Hello….????
Anyone Comprehending this…Its a Chess Match using human beings until someone WINS…in the MIDDLE EAST..
Persia Game…remember…CHECKMATE…!!
and the Muslims are manipulated and Muslim Countrys are Manipulated by Radical Muslim Extremists…JiHadddist and Clerics..on the
other Side of the sand…and hooking up with any other nation like russia or China who says the Enemy of my enemy is my Friend…
This will Grown bigger because Both Judiasm and Islam are test Gods WILL…and Want That Big Show Down Now…Next Step…Manipulate the united states into takng Out iran on any Pretext or Real or Imagined…as the next step..after eliminating saddam…(Through the USA)…as payback for His own Scud attacks on israel..
The whole World is being manipualted and Suckered in to this mess by the Islamist and Judiaism..
Both side believing thier prophecys are being Fufilled and god is on THIER Respective Side…
We are in the Fourth Quarter of that game…and it will End with a BANG…
Several Nations are Foolish to allow this manipulation…or be spectators to the Middle east version of feeding women and Children to LIONS in the big Sandbox Arena over there…
IMO…
The overwhelming horror of these brutal and constant attacks proves that these nations do not really want peace. I believe they thrive on war and adapt to periods of peace as simply nothing more than quiet planning periods for the inevitable resumption of hostilities. When a parent will sacrifice their own child because they believe that the promise of a heavenly reward is so great, how can you reason with that mindset? Highly disturbing and incomprehensible behavior.
God help us.
Quite frankly, we are all f-cked! I have never been so terrified in all of my life. Just the fact that America has really lost it’s mind with who we allow to be our leaders and we never take them out when they do bad things and we have no leader speaking out about this situation still is absolutely insane! Our country is on the edge of it’s own destruction and really the entire world is shaky.
But let’s just go on and on about a “historic” inauguration and watch the news channels talk about award shows and inaugural gowns and fear of Palin running in 2012, shall we?
No wonder Israel has gone to war. They feel all alone and vulnerable. I know exactly how they feel!
This sickened me. Nothing that Hamas has done has ever made Israel safer. Are we equally outraged?
Suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria in Jerusalem
August 9, 2001
15 people were killed, including 7 children, and about 130 were injured in a suicide bombing at the Sbarro pizzeria at the corner of King George Street and Jaffa Road in downtown Jerusalem. Concealing the explosives in a guitar case which he had carried with him into Jerusalem, the terrorist entered the restaurant just before 2 PM and detonated the bomb. The 5 kg.-10 kg. bomb, which was packed with nails, screws, and bolts to ensure maximum damage, completely gutted the restaurant, which was full of lunchtime diners.
The terrorist was killed in the blast. His controller was on the list of wanted terrorists submitted by Israel to the Palestinians Authority this week. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
beebop –
Is this the incident where a female Al Jazeera reporter drove the murdering bastard to the kill site?
I saw her interviewed in prison. She laughed when she heard kids were killed in the blast.
She thinks the suicide bomber is a big hero.
Talk about sickening!
Strawberrybitch would surely find some way to excuse their actions, but in this case they weren’t poor…
Look on the bright side. Now we all know that the Isralis are no better then hamas. Boy does that take a load off.
Wild Child –
Israel has shown amazing restraint. No other country would endure constant rocket and mortar attacks the way Israel did. The US wouldn’t and neither would any other world power.
define amazing, because we’ve discussed this topic before on this blog. Israel has the technology to turn every rocket or mortar attack from gaza into a suicide mission for the shooter. But instead they show “amazing restraint” after which they play the victim and invade. Except Israel isn’t the victim. They are the occupying power beating down the captured people. All the victim playing and invading isn’t going to change that.
WildChild –
I don’t see Israel playing the victim. I see Israel defending itself.
If Hamas doesn’t like it; it should stop launching rockets and mortars into civilian neighborhoods where kids play.
Hamas should instead focus on feeding and caring for Palestinians.
Israel could inflict incredible carnage in Gaza, yet hasn’t.
sorry but Israel sat there and did nothing while hundreds of rockets were being into into into Israel proper from one if its occupied territories. The whole time they were siting there doing nothing they had the technology to turn every rocket and mortar firing into a suicide mission for the shooter. But they didn’t. It’s much harder to play the victim after a campaign of successful counter battery fire.
fired into
I am not trying to be a jerk but I think showing pictures of dead children almost never advances a productive dialog.
Its such a horrible image that any decent person will be repelled and want to take immediate, decisive, corrective action. Even if this is exactly what the situation does NOT need.
Believe me, enough people are taking immediate and decisive action right now. Cooler heads need to prevail but I feel they never will when they cannot even prevail on a blog.
It makes me sad for humanity.
I do believe that the US started this war on terror campaign and now we want to attack Israel for using it? No. I don’t think so.
Did any children die in 9/11?
If we are attacked again will children die?
If the US were attacked and fought back (if we had a real President who would protect us, that is), would children die?
I love children and I don’t want them to die. I don’t want to see my children die. I don’t want to see my children drafted in a massive war that happens if no one stands with Israel.
Why is Hamas doing this to their own children? Are we to believe Israel is targeting children?
I don’t believe for a minute that Israel is targeting children or any civilians. I think Israel just considers them as causilty of war. But I also don’t think for one minute that children AREN’T dying because of Israel’s bombing.
Does anyone here really believe if Hamas wiped out Israel that they would stop there. Some member of YOUR family would pay the price for Jihad. Wake up folks. The world is what it is and pretending otherwise is a fools game.
Wayback machine – Grozny bombing is halted amid ‘human shield’ fears
God bless their souls.
More information is good, no matter how difficult it is to face.
The only way there will ever be peace in the ME is by sheer brute force, I’m afraid. Diplomacy only works when there are two sides willing to enter into negotiation for a solution and not as a means of biding time until the next round of hostilities.
War is hell and as grisly an undertaking as humanity can fashion–as it should be. When it is sanitized, much like the “shock and awe”-packaged crapfest for TV, it no longer provides an impetus to cease hostilities.
anyone consider that Hamas chopped off the poor childs head with a sword and then did the photo shoot? With Hamas it is more likely than not. It is also possible that the child was arelative of an uncooperative Fatah “traitor” A serious trauma from an explosive device that severed the head almost always would completely disfigure the face to be unrecognizable. The head was placed there and photographed in my opinion aa a staged shot for a sick PR campaign. Sad but probably true .
i think the child is buried in the rubble, not decapitated. And I think the child died as a result of the bombing.
It’s a little too perfect. I am not buying it. Especially given their history – human shields have won them wars before.
She was only 4 years old. Her name is Kaukab Al Dayah.
Indeed, you’re right, idiocracy. She was buried, not decapitated. Just for the sake of accuracy, we should be absolutely clear about what we’re looking at.
Israel is facing an incoming U.S. president who is really unpredictable, in fact, who has said he wants to deliver a world address at a Muslim capital.
If you want to argue “proportionality” – go to any country in the region Egypt, Jordan, and buy a map – only the Israel region has no name.
I like your blog, but this crosses the line. Have you put as much energy finding pictures of dead Israelis? I dare you to. This propaganda to get a point across when you have none.
…Well YOU could link to picture of dead Israelis. No one is preventing you from doing so. It’s not like you’re confined to a bombed out stretch of land with no electricity, no food, no water, no medicine and no where to go. If you’ve got them, send them to Larry. He already said he’s post them. Or you could go and start your own blog. The owner of this blog is not anti Israel, he’s against Israeli tactics. Besides all the photos I could find are ones of dead soldiers not dead children. A soldier chooses to be in the conflict, that dead child had no choice.
“It’s not like you’re confined to a bombed out stretch of land with no electricity, no food, no water, no medicine and no where to go.”
..Uh, be careful Strawb.
Manu could very well live in Detroit.
Oh man…you made me laugh. I know I shouldn’t be laughing. But thank you. I guess we need to find a little bit of joy wherever we can find it these days.
Yeah, agree.
Picture #23
These were human beings first. Why are we forgetting that fact? It’s easier to take/justify/brush off if you think of them as ‘propaganda’ or posed, or their bodies manipulated for the camera.
Can we have a discussion that focuses on the first level–the humanity?
decapitated or buried it’s a damn shame. That kid should be learning her colors, and learning new words and riding a tricyle, what she should not be is dead. Poor kids, they have no say, they just get caught up in the whims of the adults around them. Instead of being kept safe they get used as pawns in politics that they know nothing or care anything about.
Severed hrads are the currency of radical islamists. The poor childs head is severed. there is a flat terreain arountd the arranged photo. remember Mr Berg? or Mr Pearl? both Americans who had thieir heads severed while alive for a sick PR campaign. The childs head was severed after death IMHO. ant then placed in a clear flat area and photographed multiple times and then released AP style. and people are buying it. Including here.
Flat terrain. Good catch. And yes, Danny Pearl.
looks like the baby is buried in rubble.
http://www.aztlan.net/israel_kills_children.htm
got the link from above from athy
The child’s head is not severed. There are more photos by the same photographer on the Getty Images website showing her body (head attached) being dug from the rubble.
To see a photo of the buried girl (with head and body in tact) after she had been dug out, click here.
I hope Larry understood that the girl hadn’t been decapitated.
Let me tell you if you believe everything the media pumps out as REAL I’ve got a bridge to sell you in NYC! CNN has already been busted for staging some of it’s footage and photos! AGAIN, from someone who has spent A LOT of time in that part of the World… I am not buying a lot of this POOR HAMAS CRAP! Hamas inflicts A LOT OF bloodshed among it’s own people just for personal gain! Larry, you’re ex-CIA you know this…
if there parents voted for hamas then they are as much to blame as israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYbnr_k51z8
The ignorance on these blogs is astounding. Palestine is occupied territory. All the current problems PREDATE Hamas. Israel broke the truce, not Hamas. Palestine and then Hamas continued to support the 67 borders. Israel does not want peace with the Palestinians and this is why Israel broke the truce.
So those of you who blame Hamas are clueless.
You poor soul. You are very uninformed and ignorant.
I cant believe some of the heartless people online.
That place is nothing but horror on a mass scale. It’s reported close to 50% of the 1.5 million people in that area are minors/children. Terrible to think of the many starving children who wander the rubble/streets after having their parents wiped out and no shelter/food or comfort. Couldn’t imagine it.
Larry, my response is not to your written script, which was subdued.
The accompaning photos, however, set off my rage meter. I read this post last night and logged out.
There are depraved sadists, in prisons across the globe who have committed violent crimes, and yet, for pieces of real estate, countries are willing to act in this manner.
To defend or rationalize such acts is beyond my comprehension!
Would it make you feel better if the Israelis did not protect their civilians when being relentlessly shelled by Hamas and 275 of their civilians were killed? Hamas cares not how many civilians are killed in Gaza. They use them as shields. War is hell and civilians are killed in war. 4000 of our civilians were killed by Islamic terrorists and that was hell too. Maybe we should publish pictures of beheaded corpses and body parts of some of the people who were slaughtered in the Twin Towers. Hamas is a member of that same group that brought us that horrible assault. Israel is trying to keep that same sort of thing from happening inside it’s borders. I feel very sorry for the innocent people being hurt and killed in Gaza, but Hamas does not. they glory in each death and call it martyrdom. My God,what nsanity.
No, it would make us feel better if there weren’t 275 civilians dead.
Some of us feel that neither side wants peace. Because peace means a 2 state solution. This will never work for Israel.
I think that if you check back over the last 60 or so years, you will see that Israel has been begging for peace and for a two state solution. They gave up Gaza to the Palestinian Authority to appease the Palestinians. Of course, Hamas promptly took Gaza over and made it into a terrorist territory. If the Palesinian Authority had been able to hold on to it, maybe things would have been different,but we will never know. In 2001, under President Clinton, they were willing to give the Palestinians 90 percent of Jerusalem, Israel’s most holy city and also to give them 90 percent of all their other demands. Arafat refused and called for a so called “holy war” to wipe out Israel and that is what we have now. If you want to call it “holy” as they seem to think. Israel deserves to defend itself and I for one am thankful they can do so. If they could not, they would have been destroyed by now.
I’ve been reading up on it. Israel is not begging for a 2 state solution. What would that mean to the Jews?
Why won’t people answer that question?
If there was a 2 state solution, there would be a majority of arabs being represented and voting. How would that be good to Israel?
I think that if you checked back you will see the leaders true intentions of Israel.
Never to agree to the borders.
Ben-Gurion & Begin said this:
-
and
and
Israel was never willing to give 90% of Jerusalem to anyone. Do you have a link for that one?
I don’t always trust wiki, but you may want to look: (you can click on the references
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
If wikipedia is your source, you’d be better off checking Al-Jazirah. In a two state division, arabs would not be represented and voting in Israel. They would be represented and voting in their own state, if it was a democracy,which I’m sure it would not be. If you want to see what was offered the Palestinians (and which they turned down)during the Clinton administration, all you have to do is google it. You can get an outline of all the peace accords that have failed. As far as Israel not wanting peace, why would a small country of 5.4 million Jews want to be constantly at war with the billions of arabs surrounding them. It is ludicrous to even imagine that Israel wants to be at war with them. All they want is their tiny country and to live in peace.
And for your information, there are about 2 million arabs living in PEACE in Israel itself. They consider themselves Arabs with Israeli citizenship. If they can live inside the country without needing to murder Jews, why can’t the Palestinians live side by side without needing to murder Jews.
smitty-
please consider the following:
http://www.freedocumentaries.org/theatre.php?filmid=169&id=1031&wh=1000×720
Pay close attention to what is presented during points 51:00 to 54:00 on this documentary…
Another perspective is presented as to who might REALLY be against Israeli/Palestinian peace and a possible two-state solution…
Sorry, that does not impress me much. The 1967 War(the Six Day War) occurred because Israel was attacked by Jordan, Egypt, Syria etc. Why should Israel have turned right around and returned the conquered land back to the very countries which attacked them? Especially when called upon to do so by the UN which may as well call itself The Arab UN. They have never dealt in an evenhanded way with the Middle East Conflict and never will. They are a useless organization and should be disbanded. I know the history of what has happened in the Middle East. I have followed it for years and I don’t believe all the propaganda and rhetoric that is being spewed out now. Israel deserves to exist and they are not the aggressors. They have only tried to defend themselves,when nobody else would. Palestine deserves to exist and could be a viable and prosperous state right now, living in peace beside Israel if their leaders had really been dedicated to making a state and taking care of it’s citizens. As long as they refuse to live side by side in peace and continue to attack Israel, there will be war and there will be death on both sides. And by “they”, I do not mean the innocent Palestinian citizens who are just like any other people in the world who want to have a safe home and raise their families in peace. I mean Hamas and Hesbollah and all the other terrorists who exist only to destroy and kill. Israel will not allow itself to be attacked with impunity, but they would accept peace with the Palestinians if it is offered.
Israel has a strong enough army. I think it is now time for the U.S. to stop sending them millions for their military and to stop supplying them with weapons. The U.S. should use that money at home or use it for feeding the sick and poverty stricken people around the world.
Here is a lot of the problem over there in Israel/Palestine……go to YouTube and type in “Palestine Land”. Watch anyone of the videos and you can see what a big part of the problem is.
Larry, I’m deeply sickened by these pictures. Sickened by the evil maniacs who put these innocent children in harm’s way.