We Will Not Forget, We Women
By SusanUnPC on January 16, 2009 at 4:45 PM in David Shuster, Keith Olbermann, MSM, MSNBC, Media Bias, Media Handling of Story, Misogyny, Sexism
(Bumped up from yesterday afternoon by Susan, because Larry Johnson encourages women to promote their work, to be powerful, and to take charge! It is notable, and heartening, that Larry has one of the very few female-dominated groups of writers on any major blog, which tells you quite a bit about Larry, doesn’t it.
ALSO: I’ve received more recommendations for feminist books, and will be adding those in the story or in the ad column this afternoon. Thanks to all for your suggestions!)
Damn straight we will NOT forget, all you sexist and misogynistic scions of the MANstream Obamedia with your self-aggrandizing, “land of the blind” ignorance of what women endure, to this day, with stereotypes, slights, direct insults, demoralizing putdowns, and outright hostility (and that means you, Mr. “take her in a room” Keith Olbermann who, I bet, hasn’t a clue just how misogynistic he really is).
I’m not flogging that book on the historic writings of feminism that I discovered at Amazon yesterday while looking for good books on feminism, but I found this part of an editorial review of the book to be important to share with you all:
Enlightened males (John Stuart Mill, Frederick Douglass, Henrik Ibsen) are permitted a few heartening words, but mainly the women yell for themselves: “All I ask of our brethren is, that they take their feet from off our necks.” The piecemeal collection supports the editor’s assertion that “feminism has not developed a viable theoretical foundation.”
Such theory as there is seems to be an incidental byproduct of socialist doctrines and it is impotently outdated. [Susan's Note: I cannot convey just how important I find this sentence. We need a whole new 21st-century way for making women and men aware of the ongoing sexism and misogyny, and we obviously can NOT rely, any longer, on the outdated and shamefully irrelevant vehicles such as the now-discredited Ms. Magazine.]
Despite this, or perhaps because of it, the sometimes plaintive, sometimes shrill complaints of the women on their dreary, circumscribed lives are frequently articulate and the rejection of their submissive, decorative status is fervent.
All agree: Eve was framed; the doll’s house is a prison.
Eve was framed.
Hillary was framed.
We will not stand for it any longer.
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P.S. I’m open to suggestions for great books on feminism to advertise. Please send your recommendations to me at susanunpc at gmail dot com.
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And now it’s your turn.
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So many books and articles on feminism are actually about socialism or only from the leftist-feminist point of view.
Anyone ever found one that doesn’t just assume all women support a leftist agenda?
I think both Palin AND Hillary got the shaft for being women, but they are very different people.
I am a female libertarian, and a lot of what folks consider “womens issues” or “feminism” really arent things I support. Some are, some are not.
For a conservative republican woman to be a “feminist” in America would be just about impossible I think, by current definition. But such a woman could be professionally successful, independent, empowered and in fact have achieved much of what the original womens movement took as goals.
Maybe a better question is, can feminism be usefully defined without agreement on abortion, socialized medicine and the other political quagmires of the modern era? If not I think women will never be a viable voting block.
As a man looking from the outside, I think women can if they can find common ideas that unite them, of which there are several that have nothing to with abortion or socialized medicine (which, by the way, we already have, except it is controlled by unaccountable insurance companies rather than the individual ot the government).
One thing women HAVE to do is stop thinking of whatever reaction a man may have to a position and just do it. Women of the 60s and 70s were far more liberated than the alleged liberated women of today.
My wife is one of those from the 70s and I love her dearly, in some part because she is just as tough, hard-headed, and independent as I am.
That is one reason I was and am a staunch supporter of HRC.
Women have the numbers to make it so if they only take it.
My husband is also a feminist.
Men who love strong Independent women are REAL MEN. Todd Palin is a wonderful role model for men — now he is a macho guy who loves his wife.
You are spot on. I have never felt uncomfortable around strong and strong-minded women. Their very presence makes me stronger and vice versa. Shrinking violets or panderers to men are not my cup of tea, for sure.
Amen. My husband is also such a wonderful, progressive man who appreciates what I bring to the table. Of course, he was and is a big Hillary fan as well.
I’m happy for you, Ani. A good relationship is worth more than a King’s ransom.
same here.
Ferd and lauraks, thank you both.
Truly I don’t know if I could have handled having an Obot in my own home, then again, any man who would have been taken in by O’s nonsense certainly would not be around me.
There is nothing more sexy than a woman you have to salute in the morning — that guy from that movie
Ferd Berfle, this is a very important distinction you have pointed out: “Women of the 60s and 70s were far more liberated than the alleged liberated women of today.”
You are absolitely correct in your analysis as well. I am in my early 60’s, but I work with a number of younger women - in their 20’s and 30’s. They think I am strident. I think they are weak on women’s issues. They think being a feminist us just having a good job. Go along to get along is their motto. They have no idea how women in my era had to fight to get thosde once all male jobs.
We teach civil rights in our schools. Yet there is no curriculum on women’s rights and history.
You are indeed correct, bert. I just don’t get the youth of today, particularly the women. They think they’re liberated if they can undress in front of a camera for the enjoyment of frat boys and cellar-dwelelrs on the internet. For God’s sake, that is a yoke.
I’m in my early 50s and can remember when a woman would stand up and be counted in lieu of the polar alternative in vogue today.
That’s why so many young women think they’re “liberated”. It’s about leaving behind what they see as the old social controls on women having sex. Liberation is something else.
“Women of the 60s and 70s were far more liberated than the alleged liberated women of today.”
I completely agree.
It’s the effect of decades of feminist-bashing and concerted efforts to re-infantalize and dominate women. A lot of us have spoken out about it and kept on working despite this, but it has taken a long time for a still-small number of younger women to start taking this stuff seriously.
Part of the problem is that until income differentials and real differences in life chances begin to set in in their lives — by which time it is too late — most women believe that they are equal, liberated, do have ‘choices’ of all kinds, and just plain old don’t believe that they will ever be treated differently just because they are women.
But funnily enough, a lot of young men in that age group (up to about age 25-26) seem to know exactly what is going on.
You have a great mind.
You might be right, HC. I can and have accepted pro-life women into my life as friends and can vote for them as I did for Sarah Palin. I made an effort to email NOW on several occasions to protest the lack condemnation over the stories about her. I also emailed several media outlets and defended her whenever and where ever I heard derogatory and unfounded criticism about her or her family. Some Republican women on this blog have supported Hillary and probably voted for her. There is more which should unite us than that which divides.
The issue of universal health care is more important to women and their families when they can’t afford such care which solely depends on income. If you have money, you don’t need to worry if you or your child is ill. Your phrasing it as “socialized medicine” defines what your status is and your opinion.
Of course, this is a problem which won’t be addressed by Washington any time soon if ever. How many people in our homeland have died as a result of acts of terrorism and how many have died from the lack of health care? Yet the budget for the Pentagon and the military is more than all other programs combined.
Children from lower income families have no access to eye care which can affect their ability to learn. Wealthy families can afford expensive braces to insure their children have straight, white teeth. Children from low income families can sicken and die from an abscessed tooth due to lack of dental care.
What are the issues important to Conservative women? How can we define a women’s movement if we do not address gender problems? What about the availability of athletic scholarships for women? Title ix is a token if you consider the proportion of male and female students at any given high school. I’ve never heard of a single school which spends more than a fraction on women’s sports programs when compared to football or basketball for men. In fact many schools budget more for these programs than for math and physics.
There are more subtle issues as well. How many women say their husbands are respectful of their opinions yet will sit silently while every major decision in their lives is made by men. How to budget income, which home or car to buy, which movie to see, restaurant or vacation to take?
What about the women who are abused every single day in this country because they are unable to defend themselves or don’t have enough confidence to believe they can support themselves and their children which in many cases may be true due to the lack of opportunity for education.
A women’s movement in order to be successful, must be about all women, not just me. I have to care about the whole and all of it’s part no matter what their politics. I can’t let men define what I’m entitled to or another woman’s rights because I can’t allow them to maintain the status quo just because it is comfortable or suits them.
elise, some very good points … and another … women are abused no matter what their political affiliation
Good points. Feminism should not force issues on a person, but rather focus on supporting their rights. I’m a libertarian too, which practically guarantees my candidate will never win (sigh). Oh well, why stop now?
Where does your candidate stand on your rights, Sonic? Has the Libertarian Party ever nominated a woman? I respect every Americans right to support the candidate who best represents his/her ideas on the economy, use of military force etc,the question is does your candidate respect you enough to fight for your equality?
I support libertarian ideals.
I generally do not care for the libertarian candidate for president, but this doesn’t invalidate the concepts behind libertarianism.
I think running the libertarian party has to be like herding cats.
Believe it or not HC, I support some of the Libertarian ideas especially in the arena of Foreign Policy, but I know for sure after this year, I can’t trust any party to support the equality of women. That isn’t going to happen until we put away partisan politics and show our strength by voting as a block. When we can do that, our voices will be heard everywhere and I’m convinced if we can break those bonds, we will be better able to reach a consensus on other issues. As long as division benefits the status quo, we won’t be able to effect any change. I may be dreaming the impossible dream, but men have been in charge of things for over two hundred years and I don’t think they have done such a bang-up job.
I hear ya.
Elise, sometimes the person who best supports women’s rights happens to be a man. I have seen many females lately who claim to be ‘feminists’ who actually set women BACK. I don’t care what gender my feminist comes in. Give me Ed Rendell over Naomi Wolf and Ron Paul over that the woman who wore the c*** t-shirt. Be very careful about which women you promote, Elise–they are not all feminists!
Feminism to me is the support of equal opportunities for women. It does not mean men are shut out. A perfect feminist society does not mean women will be 50% of all the construction workers and men will be 50% of all the nannies. It means women will have the opportunity to do what they choose. You cannot force the outcome percentages–that would be a form of socialism.
their must be books out there about frontier women, who to me would be the examples of conservative feminism in the sense of rural, small town, god-fearing folk
Most of these women had the right to vote before we did at the national level, and were instrumental in getting women’s suffrage passed
I recently joined the National Rifle Assoc. and purchased a 10-22 semiautomatic rifle. I just received the NRA publication and read where one of our USA states had denied an 81 year old female, the 2nd amendment right of gun ownership, based upon the fact that she was “an old woman”. I guess if a rapist or thief breaks into her home, where she lives alone; she just has to roll over and take it; after all she is only “an old woman”.
The Woman’s Bible: A Classic Feminist Perspective (Paperback)
by Elizabeth Cady Stanton (Author)
Elizabeth Cady Stanton an early feminist writer and I bought several copies of this book when it was rediscovered and reprinted.
Another book with a historical perspective:
Witchcraze: A New History of the European Witch Hunts (Paperback)
by Anne L. Barstow
Very often the treatment of women is justified or excused — saying it is the human DNA — or that it is natural. I say that misogyny is learned — and it is taught. Women are expect to know our place.
Obama has used the learned prejudiced toward women — because women are the EASIEST targets and hell we are the majority. He will continue to target women — and MS magazine will help to lead the bloody charge.
I put the link to The Women’s Bible on a separate comment — and it did not show up.
Use a search engine to find the link — Yahoo had the link near the top.
The Women’s Bible can be found at Amazon . com
READ the early feminists — I think they make some of the strongest arguments for equality of the sexes.
Also women are women’s worst enemies — few women even know about the early feminists and how their battles have won major victories. Education is just one area where women have won amazing victories. A friend of mine who is in her 80s was delivered by one of the first women doctors in America.
I’ll add an ad to it right now. Be back in 5 minutes or so. THANKS!
Done. Thank you so much. I hadn’t heard of this book, just her.
You will enjoy it!
I just read the parts quoted on the webpage — it is time for me to reread her book!!
Comment by Northwest rain | 2009-01-15 18:24:01:
“READ the early feminists — I think they make some of the strongest arguments for equality of the sexes.”
I’ve been reflecting on that myself: that the founding mothers had it more rigorously right than those who have built on their work. I think that’s true of the US of A’s founding fathers and a woman or two, as well.
speaking of elizabeth cady stanton, IMO the absolute “bible” of feminism is “the History of Woman Suffrage,” compiled by Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and other workers in the early US women’s rights movement (6 volumes, approx. 5000 pages).
there is nothing that puts it all in perspective like these books. they are not at all dry or boring, either; i have found them to be very entertaining and inspirational reading, not to mention the best education a woman/girl could ever get on where she would be without “feminism.”
Finally some one pointed out that MSNBC had a obvious bias. DeeDee also talked about how mysogony (sp?) and racism are both bad.
I will bet that no one will touch the fact that the majority of African Americans voted black (race), dispite what Hillay did for all ethnic minorities.
So much for working together in the future.
This is not intended as criticism, but as a memory trick for remembering the spelling of MISOGYNY.
It’s not so much a trick as remembering the roots of the word.
MIS = wrong, bad, as in Misspelled.
Actually, MISO means “ill will,” from the Greek “misos” meaning hatred.
GYN = women, as in gynocologist or androgynous.
MIS-O-GYN-Y.
Hope this helps.
Seeing this video was a big surprise. If Dee Dee Myers had spoken up for Hillary during the primaries and GE, I would think better of her. She did NOT! When she was a pundit on MSNBC, CNN or other networks, you often could not tell whether she was for Hillary or Obama, which is why she kept being invited. MSNBC especially loved the fact she was NOT leading the cheers for Hillary.
It was most irritating that she was introduced as the author of her new book, “Women Should Rule the World” when she wasn’t even enthusiastic about the best candidate in years who happened to be a woman. AND, that was particularly troubling since Bill Clinton is responsible for her having any semblance of notoriety, having named her his Press Secretary making her the first female PS.
Then, when Dee Dee’s husband wrote that horribly negative “Vanity Fair” article in April or May, that was just the final straw for me and Dee Dee. When asked, of course, about the article, naturally she said she had known nothing about it.
I’ve never been as disappointed, disillusioned, and disgusted with as many people that I had previously admired as I was in 2008! Dee Dee Myers is one of them.
Heartbreaking to watch.
I need some time to process before I blog about it.
sigh.
to fiscalliberal: HERE…HERE, I also know a lot of AA’s that did not vote for the O, as well as us Brown folk. We have not forgotten the Clintons and will always support them.
Bless you.
I think the conduct of the media and the guy who was crowned “president-elect” really turned the issue on its ear. Maybe the books need to be rewritten … or we need new books. We need to stop rationalizing — sexist attacks on women, including attacks by other women, are not ok. It’s doesn’t matter if your “target” is politically incorrect or opposed to your views. Sexism is sexism. And women’s rights are bigger than reproductive rights. Women’s rights include the right to think, speak and “be” without fear from harm. Freedom. For all the people. Not just men of any and all colors.
This is great — is this from you or a quote??
Although I did not agree with Palin on all the issues — I support her right to run for office and be elected! I voted for her — because she was the most honest of the choices I had.
Northwest rain - I did not agree with all of Palin’s positions either. But she is an accomplished and competent woman. What angered me most about the treatment she got was that so many denigrated those accomplishments and belittled her. As far as I was comcerned that treatment denigrated and belittled all women.
Yes. For example, I found Sarah Palin’s views about the hunting of wolves to be utterly repugnant and her excuses have zero merit since the moose belong as much to wolves as they do to human beings. And a viable predator system in nature is vital (!).
But, I too found the treatment of her also repugnant.
What astonished me was how “in” it was to diss Sarah Palin. I have a 22-year-old neighbor who’s, well, let’s just say she’s not steeped in knowledge about politics and world affairs. But, when she had me over for tea, one of her opening-the-conversation lines was, snidely, asking, “How about that Sarah Palin.”
And it wasn’t a question. It was an “I’m so hip that I know she’s bad” kind of statement.
Then I launched into a 3-4 minute discussion of why it is wrong to denigrate women, regardless of their political views and that the attacks on Sarah Palin were both vicious and crude.
She was silent. Then she said, “Oh, I don’t know that much about politics.”
Well, she knew enough to know that it was cool to mock Palin. Or so she thought.
Young women, these days, really need an education in our history. And I’m repeating this for the umpeenth time, so forgive me: It is why I tell every young woman I know that they MUST watch the AMC series, “Mad Men,” from the first episode through. “Mad Men” captures all the overt sexism and misogyny of the 1960s and before.
And it also makes one wonder how much we’ve really gained. Well, the overt misogyny occurs less.
But we can’t read minds, can we. (I.e., how many men REALLY still think that way, but know just enough to hide it, just like a lot of racists do about AAs.) Take Tweety. He thinks sexism has been overcome, and that there’s no problem with it anymore. But he fails to get just how sexist and nasty MSNBC was to Hillary Clinton throughout the primary because she DARED to run for president as a WOMAN, which opened her up for a whole entire higher level of attack than a man would ever get.
I think we rank around 67th in the world in the number of elected female politicians. We rank right alongside Zimbabwe and countries like that.
“{It was an “I’m so hip that I know she’s bad” kind of statement.”
Oh yes, I know just what you mean! That absolutely drives me nuts.
I call people like this the sugary cereal generation. They must have grown up watching way too many TV commercials because everything they seem to know about things is contained in a sound byte or a TV jingle.
It’s frightening actually.
MadMen is one of my favorite shows precisely for that reason. It brilliantly portrays how men viewed women and how those men were socialized into doing so. Men were taught that the pool of secretaries was like their own private smorgasboard of sexual delights.
Joan’s character I find particularly appealing because she is the secretary who epitomized the Helen Gurly Brown’s “Sex and the Single Girl”, but as she is aging is finding just how much that has hurt her credibility and chances for real success; like we all realize that our sexual wiles are not the real basis for our empowerment. She’s moved up to the top of the secretarial pool as Office Manager but she realizes this just might be it; there is no where else for her to go.
MadMen wouldn’t fly if the writing wasn’t sooooo well done.
I just love that: Eve was framed: the dollhouse was a prison. right on!
Thanks for this Susan and the video of DeeDee.
Wow. She is so purely blunt, so right, I love her.
2 Things: Dee Dee Myers’ points in the video needed to be made in February, not June when it was over. She was on CNN basically shilling for Obambi by not standing up for Hillary after her debates with Obambi during the primaries.
My understanding of feminism has always been that it promotes the idea that women deserve EQUAL ACCESS to the opportunities that men have. It means recognizing femininity and masculinity, but not letting our physical make-up get in the way of access to everything our country and world have to offer. If a woman wants to stay home and have children its great as long as its her choice. If she wants to not have children and work that’s great too.
“Dee Dee Myers’ points in the video needed to be made in February, not June when it was over. She was on CNN basically shilling for Obambi by not standing up for Hillary after her debates with Obambi during the primaries”
Bingo, I have heard so many, when it was too late, speak against the sexism that they saw during the campaign but the courageous move would have been to speak out when it was happening……Like Geraldine Ferraro did….
And since Gerry Ferraro was swiftly and roundly crucified in the media and called a racist — the message was sent loud and clear:
Disgraceful.
In the fall, even she came back into the fold and was campaigning for BO — talk about revisionist history — as if everyone was supposed to forget that she thought he was a lucky, unqualified boob at the outset. Problem is, most people didn’t know that because they weren’t paying close enough attention.
“And women’s rights are bigger than reproductive rights”
I think this is the starting point for the future of women’s rights. As in the civil rights struggle for AA’s the trick was not to just promote integration and equality through legislation, the trick was and still is the complete eradication of racist thought, racist speech and racist action. How does a society undo 10,000 years of deeply systemic misogyny? Certainly by understanding that only barking up one tree(reproducion) is not going to do it. What the female to female misogyny has shown in this election is that ALL women, in ALL of their diversity must be protected and supported-the labels have to go, conservative women are equally as valuable as liberal women. We as women better wake up because our young girls are so lost right now in the tree of sexual liberation with nothing else to point the way to their inalienable rights and value as females.
What I still fail to fathom is why black women would go for That One. Genetically, sex is a primary characteristic; race is barely a secondary one.
Ah, but there lies the problem. Women don’t grow up learning gender loyalty, in fact the exact opposite. Genetically gender may be a primary characteristic, but it’s definitely not a social one for girls. We learn to put everything else first.
good point; in fact, girls are taught to from the very beginning to identify with the wants, needs, aspirations, and worldviews of males. they are the “helper” (biblically speaking), after all, and there is a certain reality to the understanding that males have most of the power and privilege in society, and if a woman wants to have an easy life, she had better play along.
people of different races don’t really “need” each other, or live together intimately from the day they are born, so i think that females grow up with much more identification with males than blacks would have with whites, for example.
“The Lolita Effect: The Media Sexualization of Young Girls and What We Can Do About It” by M. Gigi Durham.
Sort of a study on the effects of advertising and the media on young women, but speaks to this in a big way:
“girls are taught to from the very beginning to identify with the wants, needs, aspirations, and worldviews of males. they are the “helper” (biblically speaking), after all, and there is a certain reality to the understanding that males have most of the power and privilege in society, and if a woman wants to have an easy life, she had better play along.”
yes, absolutely, the media is pushing the sexualization of young women. they are taught that being sexually “free” (some would say promiscuous) is the end all and be all of female happiness. hmmm, i’m not saying that women don’t like sex, but i suspect that it was men that came up with this new definition of “feminism,” and their marketing campaign for it has been quite successful.
as has been mentioned before, young women realize too late that their sexuality can only take them so far in this world, and that sexual freedom is a long way from true equal rights and respect for women.
I.WILL.NEVER.FORGET!
Someone in a previous thread mentioned that those around her [family, friends, coworkers, etc.], all Obamatrons, were making her feel as if her unwillingness to forget the primary abuses, the sexist attitudes and language were simply evidence that she was a “bitter bitch.” And she was questioning herself in the midst of all this inaugaration excitement and hoopla that perhaps, she was indeed a bitter bitch, blinded by her own personal gripes and petty disappointments.
Sound familiar?
“Such theory as there is [a feminist theory] seems to be an incidental byproduct of socialist doctrines and it is impotently outdated.”
Really?
I’ve always found the accusatory question–Are “you” a feminist?–pretty amusing. Because my standard answer is: Of course, I am. I’m a woman, afterall.
The whole idea of “feminism” as an academic one, all the analysis and intellectualizing, comes down to rather simple tenets, neatly expressed in your quote, Susan:
“All I ask of our brethren is, that they take their feet from off our necks.”
That means in all areas: academically, professionally, biologically, security-wise, etc.
There will always be arguments from the nay-sayers who claim women have the “upper hand.” Then how do we explain the alarming number of female deaths at the hands of husbands, boyfriends, fathers, etc. And though most would agree that the “N” word is unacceptable, the “C” word has enjoyed a renaissance, used liberally in the blogosphere. Even on t-shirts.
But to bring it home, maybe we need to start publicizing the abuses in a graphic way. The way Senator Boxer did yesterday at Hillary Clinton’s confirmation hearings–photos of Third World women deliberately mutilated, beaten, scarred with acid.
Their crime? They didn’t toe the line. They didn’t get with the program.
You don’t think violence against women happens here? Then you might be surprised to hear that approx 1500 women die per annum due to domestic violence, 500,000+ are subject to battering and another 130,000+ are subject to sexual assault. BTW, that last stat is only the reported cases. Professionals suspect that 1.2 million women per year are sexually assaulted by their “partners.”
As Senator Clinton stated yesterday: This is not culture. This is not custom. This is criminal.
So, as far as I’m concerned, you can call me a bitter bitch anytime you want. Because I am.
You aren’t bitter or the other; you are correct. What galls me is that sexism of one sort or another has been around for untold millenia. I wonder if there are reparations in the offing for that verifiable fact? I think we all know the answer to that one.
Well, thank you, Ferd! Btw, I don’t want to leave the impression that I’m down on all men. I shouldn’t need to qualify a solidarity statement but I [and I'm sure many women] are accustomed to the blowback: you’re obviously frigid, an Ice Queen or a lesbian. Because, I guess, acceptable women should enjoy being stomped on.
There are, of course, lots of good guys out there. I’m married to one.
As for reparations? I don’t think there are many women asking for that [actually, I don't think there's enough money in the world]. We want the sexism to stop. Sooner rather than later.
You’re welcome, Peggy Sue.
You didn’t.
Someone put it very eloquently, and I’m sorry I don’t remember who. They said: “The give-away that it isn’t religion and it isn’t culture is that there is no religion and no culture on earth in which it is OK to rape, mutilate, and kill men.”
“The give-away that it isn’t religion and it isn’t culture is that there is no religion and no culture on earth in which it is OK to rape, mutilate, and kill men.”
such a powerful statement that reading it again caused chills to run up and down my spine
Yes, HC, this is an important question–even as the issues change– especially in the context of a viable voting block.
At the heart of this current crisis, however, lies the matter of defining the term itself, even as one recognizes that there are many different kinds of feminisms today (e.g. essentialist, liberal, bridge, transational, etc.) That said, what are the fundamental parameters (if any) of feminism, given that so much of the debate is framed thusly: “You are a feminist ONLY if…” or “You are NOT a feminist if….”?
Susan,
Any idea what “video” Dee Dee was refering to in the above clip?
Elizabeth Cady Stanton
and here’s another great quote:
“The world has never yet seen a truly great and virtuous nation because in the degradation of woman, the very fountains of life are poisoned at their source.” Lucretia Mott
Want to share something I posted recently at Team Sarah ref: Governor Palin and the notion that she could be the “conservative’s” candidate in 2012. This relates to her but I believe it applies to any female candidate for office.
# # #
Ref: the notion that Sarah Palin is the CONSERVATIVE candidate. She is NOT. She is a candidate for ALL women (and all good men, with brains above their belts). Labeling her the hope of CONSERVATIVES (to the exclusion of others) plays into the hands of politicians who have marginalized women in every American election in recent memory, including the last one.
For your Consideration:
A remark made by Governor Palin in a post-election interview that I tucked away to re-visit later. Now is later. Hopefully only later and not too late.
It relates to the point that sometimes we need to make a difficult choice to cast a vote for someone with whom we don’t totally agree because it’s the better choice for our (party, nation, PTA, city, state, book club).
When asked about the rabid opposition to her candidacy by female pro-choice Democrats, Governor Palin gave a more nuanced response than I had expected. She said, (paraphrasing), “Well, I think we, as women, have much more in common than we do in opposition and, on that issue, I think we could start with something with which we all agree — that there are too many abortions performed in this country — and go from there.”
I found that interesting and, in fact, quite perceptive — “Start with common ground and go from there” — makes sense to me.
When you start at opposite poles, the journey is too long for most positions to survive the trip.
Women got played in this election, as they have before, out there mobilizing and canvassing and calling and putting out 120% of the effort of their male counterparts (as usual), but in the end totally neutralized, 49.999% on each side of the abortion fence. Focused on that issue before all others. Even the more ironic considering neither choice would or will have the slightest effect on the subject.
If only somewhat united (say at 60%-40%), you (women) could take over this country. Goodness knows we men have made a big enough mess of it.
But that will never happen through enabling the abuser. Has that ever worked?
And it will never happen unless we (and you) stop beating the drum of our differences and start passing the pipe on at least roughly neutral ground.
I know, I risk a backlash for preaching but I’m not, in my mind, preaching. I’m cheering, for the team I believe in.
You have a common mission and a uniting cause. But, it may not be the one some suggest it is. It is not abortion. It is equality, true equality, for women.
I believe Sarah Palin is a candidate (more accurately, a leader, whether or not a candidate — she got drafted from Alaska — she did go looking for the job) for ALL Americans. But, even more than that, she is a path to the mountaintop for women, if you can find the trail through all the smoke that’s been blown in your direction.
Good luck and we (some of us men) have got your back.
# # #
In closing, I note that the above was written to Palin supporters. But, in my mind, it applies as well to whomever is chosen, if someone is, to lead the march against the formidable forces arrayed against you.
Well done, agreed, can I share this on my blog?
Absolutely
I also viewed interviews where Palin stressed “starting from what we have in common.” From my own personal reading and viewing, as opposed to media-fed news, I felt Palin was not as radical as all the slander made her out to be.
Clinton/Palin 2012!
That would be fantastic!
“Theory”? What the hell does she mean, “theory”? What theory is needed except for “all people are created equal”?
And it would be nice if that wasn’t quite so theoretical.
I’m not sure if everyone saw HBO’s “Iron Jaw Angels”
but I thought it was brilliant and told the “real” story of what it took for women to get the right to vote… I loved it and I’m sure you can probably rent
it by now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StF3_Mj0tBg&feature=related
I did see the film and was impressed. We forget how much women of the past sacrificed [and really suffered] to win the right to vote, a mere 88+ years ago.
I would definitely recommend it.
Yes … and interesting that it was ALICE PAUL that broke with the faction of the feminist party buy refusing to “wait” any longer. Everyone knows about Susan B and Cady but very few even know the name of Alice Paul. i believe the film should be required in every freshman class in America.
I’m sorry. I just can’t help myself. I have been reading this tough, thoughtful story, and I just can’t seem to get this scene from Monty Python’s Life of Brian out of my mind. It’s some kind of sickness in me that I have to expectorate it here.
There’s a YouTube version of this scene here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c
If you’re not familiar with it, or not inclined to watch the YouTube, the storyline here is that a small group of radicals in Judea, under Roman rule at the time of Jesus, is discussing their political basis while seated at a Roman-style collesium. Reg is played by John Cleese, and Stan/Loretta is played by Eric Idle. The other players in this scene are incidental.
I’m on the floor laughing. One of my favorite all time movies AND favorite scenes
Always look on the Bright Side of Life!
Hilarious. Thanks so much for the laugh!
Wow, I’ve never seen this video. I love Dee Dee Myers. Thanks for posting this.
I can’t ever forget the vicious sexism, misogyny, and slander that emanated from the One and his campaign.
Barack played the very lowest and most vile form of politics all the while claiming “transcendence.”
And the media? They followed the tone set by Barack the bamboozler. How disgusting the attacks - how sad to know that journalism is dead in this country.
I’m a man and I’ll keep saying it; and will never forget.
Wait a minute. Dee Dee Myers’ husband did a hatchet job on Bill Clinton toward the end of the campaign (Vanity Fair). Lord knows they(Dee and Hubby)spent no time with worries about hurting Hillary with some VERY trumped up claims…
Dee Dee has not helped to defend the spew ripped at Palin either.
I am still sicken by the women LIKE DEE DEE who stood by and let it happen, while it was going on.
I still hate Sally Quinn, Katie Couric, Andrea Mitchell and the twerps @ MSDNC….grrrrr…
I did stand up and wrote a piece in my local paper to defend Hillary and Palin. I still feel great about it.
Just say NO.
No, we won’t.
Pot, meet kettle.
Some guys only see the bigger dog, though, whether male or female — people are judged as weaker, or stronger, and treated accordingly.
And others who think the same way tend to fall in line beihnd him, which, I think, explains A LOT of behavior, bloggers, too.
I agree with the first premise but not the second.
Bloggers/contributors have that same invulnerable feeling some get when driving 3 tons of steel and glass down the road.
Face to face, that changes. Anonymity, either vehicular or through the web, allows a degree of equality seen before only in the days of Samuel Colt. I, for one, am glad that discussions are still viable if only through the freedom the net still allows.
Regards
I was thinking of the aggressive pack type behavior exhibited towards those who did not advocate for Obama.
And I think that came from the top — like wise, if they had been told to be civil, they would have been.
Part of Obama’s strategy was divide and conquer — (absolutely worthless as the election was purchased for him, anyway, unable to really understand the implications of his choices). The boys fell right into line, didn’t even question.
And again, I think it was the weaker boys who capitulated — look at the trolls, here.
No pot, no kettle–just unvarnished truth. If the sort of shit that was heaped on women this last election cycle was heaped on men, the cacaphony of gnashing teeth and the banshee wails emanating therefrom would be deafening. This is one time you’re wrong, Mr. X.
If you doubt for one second that there is misogyny everywhere just ask yourself why no one with a brain would tell a Polish joke now but never think twice about telling a Blond joke….it is one of the last accepted jokes of this type that can be told. It is not “alright” to tell a nationally derogatory joke but still allowed to tell a “Blonds are stupid” derogatory joke. That speaks volumes on what is and is not allowed in our PC world today.
When it becomes unacceptable to tell a Blond joke we will have actually come a long way. Until then, not so much.
Some men are just thick.
They size up other men as weak, or strong, and treat them accordingly — as hateful as they are toward women, they are also to other men they judge as weak.
Some men only see the bigger dog, whether male or female, the weak men falling in line behind the stronger one (in terms of pack behavior, this is NOT all men).
But men like that are pretty screwed in the head, already — everybody hates them, male and female, just as they hate themselves, their behavior a manifestation of their self hate.
/ : > )
Brilliant post SusanUnPC, thanks. Absolutely step one has to be to remind women to stand up and defend other women, regardless of ideology, and further to challenge themselves to pick up books from Amazon or the library, and become scholars of women’s history and issues, in some part even to appreciate incorrect attitudes expressed there. Each of us, women or men, can take a stand on say one issue, how about women in poverty, from the elderly to single mothers, who face enormous odds on many levels. But we have to take a stand immediately to demand courtesy and respect, and the same standard of criticism be applied equally. Or then again maybe each of could make an attempt at civility in our discourse, respect for the dignity and worthiness of each other without all the unnecessary degradation. At the same time we do have to call out the abuse and not permit this behavior in silence.
Right on Susan! It has been an outrageous open season on an intelligent, diligent and extraordinary Hillary Clinton, which unfortunately in turn wrongfully gives license to disrespect all women.
Keith Olberman also doesn’t have a clue how revoltingly smug, bigoted, biased, skewed, self-righteous and sickening he is. Of course, as I revealed in one of my videos, it’s all tied in with his unhealthy obsession with Bill O’Reilly.
That, my good man, is a mental picture my delicate psyche could have done without!
Thanks ever so…
Sorry about that Zeke. But with people like the odious Olbermann around, the sensitive get trampled on.
Amen, Old Grumpy Guy. Keith Olbermann is obsessed with Bill O’Reilly and has been for years. Any first year student in psychology can recognize the symptoms. But Olbermann’s worst trait, in my view, as someone who admires Murrow, is to appropriate Edward R. Murrow’s signature sign-off as his own, in such a way as to appropriate Edward R. Murrow’s own journalistic integrity–which, of course, Keith Olbermann wouldn’t recognize if it smacked him right in his “revoltingly smug, bigoted, biased, skewed, self-righteous and sickening”, not to mention ugly, mug!
Ha. That was fun to repeat. Thanks for giving me the opportunity Old Grumpy Guy.
Olbermann: You’re not Edward R. Murrow. Not even close. So stop plagiarizing his words as your own.
How true about Murrow. I recall both listening to and watching Murrow, and was watching the night he tore Joe McCarthy a new asshole simply by reminding everyone about freedom.
Murrow knew what freedom cost as he stood on the rooftops of London during the Blitz and told Americans just what Evil looked like.
Olbermann’s sellout of his professional soul to The Kenyan would have spawned such revulsion in Murrow that I’m mildly surprised the he hasn’t climbed out of his grave and taken care of the matter personally.
I’d settle with a nice Haunting…
Which, of course, works for both those blowhards. Polarizing meaningless diversion is the order of the day.
OGG, I agree. At first Olbermann’s calling out O’Reilly was funny, now its to a weird fervor and strange passion.
Is this some type of unreiquitted love affair he has with him, or just some jealously?
THank you Susan, a great article and very much appreciated. I would recommend the book, Women’s inhumanity to Women, by Phyllis Chesler; it addresses how women undermine one another, and is an excellent read, delving into the some of the reasoning women use, currently to allow this behavior of ill treatment of women to continue.
This looks really good - that’s what blew me away this year, how sexist women are.
My sister-in-law said Hillary hurt other women because she stayed with Bill. But Barack, who has two daughters, was obviously a feminist. Another feminist liberal friend said she might vote for Hillary if Hillary didn’t “act like a man”. Katrina Vandenhuvel claimed to be a mind-reader when she said Hillary voted for the war because “she’s a woman, and she knew she’s have to be tough as a man when she ran for president”??? No benefit of the doubt. No acknowledgement that Chuck Schumer and Dianne Feinstein, who had no intention of running for president, voted the same way Hillary did.
2nd try on the post; I recommend the book, Women’s Inhumanity to woman, by Phyllis Chesler. Great article Susan, very much appreciated.
Thanks for posting this Susan. At least Myers is speaking up now. Too late for HRC, but in time for the next woman to make a Whitehouse run.
How convenient for DeeDee.
Nothing is by accident. Timing is never an accident. She could have spoken up IN TIME to raise awareness and help Hillary — this situation was obvious a full year ago. And so could many others.
Sorry to say, but I’m not happy about ‘next time’ — I’m still seething about this time.
Watching Hillary’s confirmation hearings Tuesday, and seeing the depth and breadth of her knowledge and preparedness just broke my heart all over again. On one hand I am grateful she will be SoS because we need her, but she should be taking the oath of POTUS next week — not the empty suit, disingenuous charlatan that everyone is trumpeting. I am sick that once again, the US has elected American Idol instead of a person of substance.
Thank you so much for this article, Susan. We do need to educate ourselves as to true feminism and I also agree with HC that we do need to find common ground as women, beyond reproductive issues — feminism is not restricted to one party.
I am also thankful to see the comments of so many progressive men on this thread.
Yes, there are a lot of you out there, too — as a great counter to the sexist idiots like Olbermann, Matthews and Hitchens…and the women like Dowd, Mitchell, Marcus et al who bond with their male offenders.
How convenient for DeeDee.
Nothing is by accident. Timing is never an accident. She could have spoken up IN TIME to raise awareness and help Hillary — this situation was obvious a full year ago. And so could many others.
Sorry to say, but I’m not happy about ‘next time’ — I’m still seething about this time./em>
My thoughts also Ani.
Me too. The women’s movement in the US is closing in on its second century of visible political activity — beginning with the Grimke sisters dedicated fight for the abolition of slavery. None of this is new. Its all about how men have learned to control, belittle, befuddle, undermine, impoverish, and abuse women. Because keeping women as a highly-exploited underclass makes men richer, more comfortable, enjoy life more, and more secure, knowing there are others below them in the hierarchy. Reproductive rights and all sorts of other things are pieces of this, but the real thing is sexual privilege, the men-first mentality of patrifocal culture, and what it does to everyone else.
That’s why I see BO as basically just having a great old time on his own private plantation — now complete with a grand white house built right on plantation models.
I don’t see him trying to tear down the master’s house with the master’s tools. And the women in his family are too under his control to oppose him in any way on that.
Ani, watching Hillary this week was bittersweet to say the least.
This is an oldie but goodie: We will never forget!
And this moniker for The One I saw another commenter post — The Bogus POTUS
How convenient for DeeDee.
Nothing is by accident. Her timing is no accident. She knew this was happening just like everyone else. She could have spoken up, along with others in plenty of time to raise awareness to help HRC.
And as for making it easier for a woman to run next time, I am still seething about this time.
Watching Hillary’s confirmation hearings on Tuesday and seeing the depth and breadth of her knowledge and her preparedness, I felt heartbroken and enraged all over again. While on the one hand, I am grateful she will by SoS because we need her, she is the one who should be taking the oath of office as POTUS next week, not this shape shifting empty suit charlatan that so many are drooling over (so they can sell more gold coins and commemoratives, no doubt).
I am mortified that at this difficult time in our nation’s history, the USA has once again seen fit to elect American Idol.
Thank you, Susan for this great piece. We do need to be reminded of feminist works and I also agree with HC that we need to find common ground as feminists beyond being pro choice or pro life – true feminism is not restricted to one party, or one sex.
That stated, I am also grateful to see so many progressive men posting on this thread. You provide a very welcome counter to sexist, small minded idiots like Olbermann, Matthews, Sullivan, Hitchens and likewise females like Dowd, Mitchell, Marcus et al who bond with their male offenders.
Please pardon the double post — I had to re-concoct it from scratch because it looked like the first one got lost in the ether!!:)
Please do not misunderstand, I am still pissed about this election and will not forget. But the point of the not forgetting is to ensure it does not happen again. My point is that any attention brought to this problem will help in avoiding this same treatment for any other woman.
Test
Seem to not be able to post, that was the first one that made it through. I wanted to thank susan for a great article, and I suggested a book, but that title may be what got caught, so I won’t post it again.
The biggest irony for me in the last week or so has been the result of watching The West Wing on Bravo, which started over from the pilot episode last week. I was surprised at the completely dualistic roles played, with all the women in the cast, with two exceptions, being in secretarial positions. Only CJ, the Press Secretary based on Dee Dee Myers, because Ms Meyrs was the ONLY female to ever have that position, had a real leadership role. The other exception, sort of, is Mandy, the publicist, who was self-employed when she was offered a White House job.
My point is that for being such a “liberal” program, portraying a liberal Democratic administration, and not so long ago (started September, 1999), it sure didn’t break any new ground for women’s roles in the political realm. I was pretty surprised, viewing it last week. I thought it was more “liberated.” I guess it stuck to realism.
absolutely, Steve; the series was entertaining enough, but it sure didn’t do women any favors.
An interesting aside- If you remember the movie Contact based on Carl Sagan’s book? the movie used clips of Pres Clinton as the pres in the movie. In the book, the Pres is a woman. I read that the decision to go with clips of CLinton was because the producers felt having a woman Pres would be too controversial. & FYI, I think Morgan Freeman had played the part of Pres in a movie by this point, though.
*Pelosi Watch*
On the very first day of Congress, Pelosi pushed through a change to a House rule known as the “motion to recommit,” a rule that was implemented a CENTURY AGO specifically to PROHIBIT the leadership of the majority party from railroading horrendous legislation through Congress under the cover of darkness.Pelosi is depending on the cover of darkness and the silence of her allies in the media to keep her shenanigans under wraps.
In other words, on 50 occasions during the last session of Congress, Pelosi and Company tried to sneak tax increases, anti-Second Amendment measures and amnesty for illegal aliens, among other things into unrelated bills.
I do not trust her. I will not forget what she did to our Hillary. I will be watching her.
You and I are on different ends of the political spectrum, but I agree with you.
Nothing is more odious than a Congressperson, or a VP, or a president abusing the Constitution, whether Cheney, Obama or Pelosi.
And that has to stop, no matter who has the power.
Great post, Susan. I totally agree with you.
As far as books: have you heard of the very first feminist book called “The Book of the City of Ladies” by Christine de Pizan, written in 1405 ? (that’s right! written almost 90 years before America was “discovered”)
And p.s., I never did think Ms. mag was in our corner…..after the first couple of issues, I thought they began exploiting the historic opportunity they were given. (I’m 62 yrs. old, so I was around before they came along)
Thanks so much for fighting the good fight!
And don’t forget Mary Wollenstonecraft’s (sp?) great work, A Vindication of the Rights of Women, written in response to the toxic patriarcality of Rousseau’s Emile.
Thanks so much for the post. The Ms. mag is a joke and that new cover of the Con-Man-In-Chief makes me barf. Those so called feminists there are in La La Land. No wonder this joke of a magazine doesn’t have any respectable circulation numbers. They’ve jumped the shark and it’s time for them to fold.
My reading recommendations are as follows:
Consumed by Benjamin R. Barber. It’s not directly about feminism, but it deals with how women’s and children’s images of themselves are manipulated by big business and others, so that they will consume whatever product or idea they are marketing. (I believe BO’s election reflects much of what is said in this book.)
City of Women by Christine Stansell. It is a study of how women lived and were perceived in New York City from 1789-1860. It also demonstrates how women came to be defined as second-class citizens.
Strange Justice by Jane Mayer & Jill Abramson is the story of Clarence Thomas’s appointment hearings. It shows how little weight was paid to Anita Hill and how much deference was paid to Thomas. It was one of the first media/political hatchet jobs of a women in favor of a man.
The Deep Divide by Sherrye Henry documents the fact that women in America “resist equality.” She surveys many groups and discusses their perception of the role and rights of women in our society.
More than that, I find it keeps my spirits up to read mystery stories in which the person solving the mysteries is a women. They always leave me with a sense that women are smart, capable and able to effect justice in the end. Try anything written by Rita Mae Brown, Ann Ross, and Alexander McCall Smith.
As the Dalai Lama says, what is needed to effect change is the “truth, courage and determination.”
great article Susan.thanks.
I would recommend:
Right Wing Women by Andrea Dworkin (although we need a similar book for liberal women who support misogynists now)
and
A Vindication of the Rights of Women by Mary Wollstonecraft
I disagree that women haven’t done enough work creating ideology that will work. We’ve done plenty but it just doesn’t go down well in our male dominated society. Men are always going to be resistant at giving up any of their power which is why it was unthinkable for so many American men that Hillary could become president.
Mother Jones: The Most Dangerous Woman in America by Elliot J. Gorn
It’s not a book by a feminist, but a book about a feminist–a true feminist–one of the most famous women in America during the 20th century, and no shrinking violet, or traditionalist. She was called “labor’s Joan of Arc” and “Miner’s Angel.” She was frequently imprisoned, and faced down the “company men” the armed thugs hired to stop labor’s progress. She was militant, and beloved by working men and women as a fighter for them all.
Her real name was Mary, and she called herself “Mother.” She went where she pleased, made speeches as she pleased and defied all of the social conventions of the day. She was an immigrant, a survivor of the Famine in Ireland, and a hell-cat.
And, she has been largely forgotten among “feminists” of today, although, if you ask me, she is the true feminist.
The same people that are condemning others as anti-feminists and/or misogynists are the same people that will support them when they run for office or watch their television programs or buy their products. If you want to talk the talk, you have to walk the walk.
also classics:
Margaret Atwood The Handmaiden’s Tale (for those who can’t believe it could ever happen again)
The Stepford Wives — really reveals male views of women quite adroitly
I think Anne of Green Gables is an incredibly feminist book, especially remembering it was written in 1908. I hope girls are still reading it. I am beginning to think women were more feminist at all times than now except maybe in the 1950’s. I am curious to see whether an economic depression will wake women up or do they think they are going to get the road-building jobs? Poverty is cruelest to women and children…weren’t those hobos men who ran away from their wives and kids?
I am a second wave feminist. As difficult as it was in the 70s for a women’s movement to evolve, I do have the upmost respect for Alice Paul’s work in the early 20th century when women activists were jailed.
I read many comments by younger women during the primaries who would say, “I’m for women being elected, but not this woman (Hillary).” I thought to myself that you’ll not see as gifted a politician, as intelligent a woman, nor a greater supporter of women’s issues as she is again for a long time. Not voting for “this woman” is a lost opportunity by women who aren’t conscious of what’s at stake. I teeter on the line of thinking that younger women will have to begin losing some of these hard-won rights before they become aware and unite in the next women’s movement, and of hoping women never reach that point.
The feminist blogs and the new PUMA movement give me hope. Many of these women are a generation younger, but their fierceness and determination are reminiscent of ours back when. They struck back when Ms magazine (Inaugural cover) got it so wrong. Maybe from you a new movement will spring.
Good article. I have been reading a book about Thomas Paine and his later influence on the Woman’s Movement.
I am so disappointed in our younger women today. They are unconscious. And their mothers encourage and support them. I have friends who supported Obama because their daughters, who the freely admit are not at all conscious, supported him. I guess they think, in some kind of reverse psychology, that supporting what their daughters want will somehow help them become self aware. I don’t know, but it disgusts me. Isn’t older supposed to be wiser.
Young women are being indoctrinated today by the entertainment industry and popular media to covet the shiny consumer clutter offered up in our department stores and shopping malls. They’re being programmed to think of themselves in the same fashion. They’re told to think of themselves as objects in a market; they’re conditioned to believe they must focus on their own external packaging to give themselves value and compete for the attentions of young men, who unfortunately tend to focus excessively on the external in the first place. Peer group pressure to conform to the false standards foisted on the young has become a highly effective tool of the marketing industry.
I honestly don’t know what will break the trend. Our whole damn economy is oriented toward compulsive, frivolous consumption and the hyping of imaginary value. What is happening to far too many highly-impressionable young women is part of that. Maybe the damn recession will be good medicine for us.
We clearly don’t agree where Obama’s pitch to the young fits into all of this. He might help snap them out of it. After all, something he said has managed to get their attention. That’s quite a feat. What matters next is whether he can hold it, and what he tells them.
FWIW, Mother Jones was against women having the right to vote.
Hi Susan- thank you so much for the work you do on the blog. I agree that Larry is amazing for the support he gives to women and to his writers. I don’t have words for how heartening it is to read others on this blog who share my feelings in this election cycle. In addition to the insightful and bias free election coverage, add to that the insight Larry brings to intelligence matters, the writers like Larry Doyle, and the posts concerning foreign affairs, and I say this is the smartest blog out there.
Thanks!