Has Israel Learned Anything?
By Larry Johnson on January 24, 2009 at 11:23 AM in Current Affairs
More than a month after Israel invades Gaza ostensibly to stop Hamas from firing rockets into Israel where are we? Hamas is still intact and, in fact, appears more popular than ever. Way to go Ehud Barack! You have made Hamas a sympathetic figure in the world’s eyes and improved its support among the Palestinian people. According to today’s Washington Post:
Hamas policemen wearing fatigues and cradling assault rifles stand guard at their usual posts, even where the buildings they have been assigned to protect no longer exist. Movement officials — some still in hiding, some back in public — coordinate cleanup efforts. And pro-Hamas preachers celebrate their “victory” in mosques overflowing with followers who say their devotion to the group has only grown after a war that cost nearly 1,300 Palestinian lives.
If there is any significant disenchantment with Hamas in the Gaza Strip, it is largely hidden behind the fear that many feel in speaking out against the group.
In dozens of interviews across Gaza on Friday, less than a week after the start of a tenuous cease-fire, Palestinians generally expressed either unbridled support for Hamas or resignation to the idea that the group’s reign in Gaza will continue for the foreseeable future. No one suggested that the group is vulnerable, despite the hopes of some Israeli officials who have theorized that their military campaign could ultimately spur Palestinians to rise up against Hamas rule.
Of course, Israel is not the only one who has failed to learn that military force has limited utility. Remember the boneheaded U.S. venture into Somalia back in 1992-3? Good intentions does not make for good policy. We lost some good soldiers, killed a bunch of civilians and, at the end of the day, pulled out without achieving any of the objectives we claimed justified our initial invasion. Sound familiar.
One Israeli has gone as far to assert that Israel has created Hamas. Avner Cohen tells the Wall Street Journal’s Andrew Higgins:
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor’s bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile’s trajectory back to an “enormous, stupid mistake” made 30 years ago.
“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel’s destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with “Yassins,” primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.
Yep, that Avner Cohen is just another anti-Semite who hates Jews because he dares to criticize Israel’s policy towards Gaza.
With the advent of the Obama Administration we are not going to see any quick miracles, notwithstanding his status as the Golden Child. However, he has chosen wisely to put Hillary Clinton and George Mitchell in charge of trying to bridge the yawning gulf separating the Palestinians and the Israelis. Getting security for both Israel and Palestine is an achievable objective. The good news is that there are some wise Israelis who understand this point:
Efraim Halevy, a veteran Mossad officer who negotiated the deal that released Sheikh Yassin, says the cleric’s freedom was hard to swallow, but Israel had no choice. After the fiasco in Jordan, Mr. Halevy was named director of Mossad, a position he held until 2002. Two years later, Sheikh Yassin was killed by an Israeli air strike.
Mr. Halevy has in recent years urged Israel to negotiate with Hamas. He says that “Hamas can be crushed,” but he believes that “the price of crushing Hamas is a price that Israel would prefer not to pay.” When Israel’s authoritarian secular neighbor, Syria, launched a campaign to wipe out Muslim Brotherhood militants in the early 1980s it killed more than 20,000 people, many of them civilians.
In its recent war in Gaza, Israel didn’t set the destruction of Hamas as its goal. It limited its stated objectives to halting the Islamists’ rocket fire and battering their overall military capacity. At the start of the Israeli operation in December, Defense Minister Ehud Barak told parliament that the goal was “to deal Hamas a severe blow, a blow that will cause it to stop its hostile actions from Gaza at Israeli citizens and soldiers.”
Walking back to his house from the rubble of his neighbor’s home, Mr. Cohen, the former religious affairs official in Gaza, curses Hamas and also what he sees as missteps that allowed Islamists to put down deep roots in Gaza.
He recalls a 1970s meeting with a traditional Islamic cleric who wanted Israel to stop cooperating with the Muslim Brotherhood followers of Sheikh Yassin: “He told me: ‘You are going to have big regrets in 20 or 30 years.’ He was right.”
Now that Elliot Abrams is no longer sitting in the White House and helping enable the likes of Bibi Netahyahu there may be a chance to assemble a legitimate peace process.
As I noted several weeks ago, Israel’s invasion of Gaza was the equivalent of setting its hair on fire and trying to extinguish the flame with a hammer. That’s a prescription for a massive headache or concussion. Hopefully Secretary of State Clinton and Special Envoy Mitchell will be standing by with a bucket of water to douse any future fires.
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Larry,
It is good to see the ‘vampire’ Elliot Abrams no longer in the scheme of all things Mideast!
It is very easy to condemn us… try sending your children to school…and missiles go flying into the school or the playground… for 8 years… more than 8000 missiles were shot at us… WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE US… If Mexico shot missiles what would you do… invade them? Nuke them?
The people of Gaza elected these terrorists… Children were used as shields… we are …and we will protect ourselves..
The question is not your right to protect yourself but if these actions in Gaza will make life more safer for you in the future. If it creates more terrorists then it will ultimately be a losing strategy no matter what the short term benefits.
what will make israel safer, bernie? please tell us. i bet you think the surrounding arab countries just want to live in peace with israel, if only israel would stop treating them so badly. yeah, right.
and how is it that israel is responsible for creating hamas terrorists, but hamas terrorists are *not responsible* for causing israeli actions against them? seems like responsibility is a one way street, according to the palestinian apologists.
Reminds me of the end screen of “Charlies Wilson’s war”- We did great and glorious things. Then we fucked up the end game.
Israel has done nothing but fuck up the end game for decades (as the US likes to do too).
There will never be a two state solution with defensible borders( and the peace that will come with it) until the Palestinians have a supporting economy and an infrastructure they can call their own. How can that ever happen when Israel blows it up every few years and restricts any type of economic advancement for the Palestinian people?
One more comment- this is why we need more women in positions of real power. Women will go through strife and conflict for the sole purpose of getting to the end game. To make it better on the other side.
The “end game” you so sincerely reference is
for Israelis to depart their homeland. Yes, it
is theirs as much as the Arabs historically,
legally, morally.
“Gaza Doctor Says Death Toll Inflated.” Why doesn’t the MSM push these little info bits? Maybe because they are positive to Israeli
initiatives? As is obvious, the PR war is more important in the overarching issue than fair and balance reportage or common sense.
http://backspin.typepad.com
This story should have traction as it typlifies
Hamas’ propaganda battle–with backup from
Western media’s contributions to ongoing
chaos in Middle Eastern affairs. Hate for
GW Bush and the neocons is deftly transferred to
Israel throughout the American culture. Ignored is the stealth gains global Islamists are afforded by our somnolent citizenry and compliant minions of the Fourth Estate.
One word exposes the duplicity succinctly: OIL
Tuppence411, thanks for all of your comments. You’re absolutely right. Considering the tactics and strategies that yield more dangers to Israel in the long run, and thus, more costs to Israel in the long run, it always comes down to the question, “why?”
You know? Sometimes you just have to look at governments with your mouth agape, wondering, ‘what were they thinking?!’
I noticed that Carter has a fairly new book out on the Middle East situation. I always liked Carter’s sincerity in regard to following his beliefs rather than following the political winds. I know many don’t like him on this blog. But I don’t know enough (Does any lay person really?) about the whole situation there. I think it is really the most important issue in the world.
I am wondering what Larry thinks about Carter’s book before I get it to read it.
diana, i too have admired carter. i have to tell you after watching the lack of courtesy and “christian charity” i have seen from him toward the clintons leaves me with less respect and a a greater tendency to look at what he says and writes with less acceptance and more questions.
It is a well known fact that Ex President Carter is Anti Semite.I do not think he’s the best authority for he lacks objectivity.
i think he’s clearly gone off the rails when it comes to blaming israel and excusing te palestinians, no matter what the reality is. i read his earlier book on “palestine,” and let’s just say, don’t let your kid read it if you want to teach them anything about personal responsibility.
Money helped cure Northern Ireland of its problems. It is much harder to continue hating if your two bit flea farm becomes worth €1.4 million. It is much harder to hate if you are no longer unemployed and starving.
Travelling around Dublin and Cork it is hard to remember divorce, homosexuality and abortion were illegal not so very long ago. The Catholic faith was very much part of the make up of the Government of Ireland. Once the reasons for religious intolerance reduce, which is religion, people find it easier to live together. The young of Ireland are far less religious now and far more tolerant. In part again this is down to money. There was a joke about a kid being mugged in Belfast. He was asked “what religion are you”? He answered “I am Muslim”. The mugger than said “Ay but are you a Catholic or Protestant Muslim”.
There are lessons that can be learnt from Ireland and I am glad Obama has on his team George Mitchell whose contributions to ridding Ireland of its troubles should not be forgotten and I hope the lessons can be repeated.
What was done in Gaza was wrong. Very wrong. I agree with Gerald Kaufman when he says it was a war crime. I just hope that one consequence is that it stops the far right being elected in Israel as that way will lead to worse.
UK you had me with your first paragraph. You lost me with your second. Do you honestly believe faith practices caused the suffering in Ireland? Most people can’t even articulate the theological differences between Catholics and Protestants. Religion was used. By both sides- it was used as fuel on the fire.
You know UK- looking around the World, most trouble spots originate in the former British Empire, where the sun never sets on your former colonies. Tell you what, instead of meddling in US politics and looking to us for answers, why don’t you work with your own goverment to clean-up the mess you all left around the world- India, the Middle East, Africa- that should take up your time.
*snicker*
I can articulate the theological differences between Catholics and Protestants, and I can even articulate the differences between most of the different Protestant denominations.
I think your comment to UKforDems was rude. The US, if it wants to be a credible influence in the world, does need opinions from outside the U.S.
The point is that religious beliefs ARE in many ways influencing all the crises in the world. It just is almost unbelievable to me that you don’t see the connection.
I was raised in a very Christian family, but one that always took the spirit of the religious message of “God is Love” to heart more than it ever did the little rules and regulations that were preached by some who thought they KNEW God’s thoughts. My church was not fundamental.
I thought it during the Viet Nam War, too. People want food, security, peace–not war. That usually takes financial help, not military solutions. When people are comfortable, they don’t start fighting over nits.
We need more support from the rest of the world. Don’t turn away ideas.
Diana, I can too. But the impression that all the bloodshed in Ireland was caused by fighting over the doctrine of transubstiation is absolutely ridiculous. The root cause of the trouble laid in the domination and exploitation of a land and its people by a stronger force for security and economic reasons. Doesn’t that sound familar? It is the same reason world over. Religious differences are just used as a tool to foster hatred, resentment, and justify differences in social classes.
As far as my second paragraph to UK , I allowed some past differences with him on other topics to spill over here. You are right. Each thread is a new beginning.
Nicely done, Tuppence
Because then the Pommy would have to admit that the British made mistakes–and lots of them. That won’t happen any time soon.
LOL Ferd- you mean just like drawing lines on a map without much forethought and giving the countries flowery historical names? Like leaving out entire populations (Kurds) or leaving regions in a border dispute(Kashmir)?
yeah, america was colonized at one time, too. we kicked the colonial powers out and got our sh*t together and moved on.
Tuppance, it WAS the religious strife that caused so much of Northern Ireland’s problems. You were judged based on whether you were a Protestant or a Catholic–in the North, Protestants claimed “privilege” due to (the Protestant) William of Orange’s forces’ win over the forces of (the Catholic) James II more than 300 years ago. When the United Kingdom offered independence to Ireland in 1920, the offer required a vote of the people. All the provinces voted strongly in favor of independence, EXCEPT for Ulster. In Ulster, which had a large Protestant population, the Protestants FEARED a loss of their religious freedom in a majority-Catholic Irish state, and the majority of the Ulster counties voted to remain a part of the UK (IMS, there were two or three western Catholic-majority counties that voted for independence). In modern Northern Ireland, a number of counties along the border with Ireland have a large Catholic population (with some regions now actually having Catholic majorities), and, over the past decade, it’s been the PROTESTANT parties which have been most obstructive (especially the party led by the “Reverend” Ian Paisley and his sympathizing parties) to the region’s government (Paisley and his supporters oppose any concessions to Catholics and would just as soon have all Catholics expelled from Northern Ireland).
As to the Republic of Ireland, within the past couple of decades, the Catholic Church has lost much of its control over the public’s views of morality (with the Vatican issuing the same type of portents of doom to the Irish Government that it’s sent to secularist leaders in Rome and Madrid). Most Irish no longer want the Vatican to control their private lives (whether issues like gay rights or divorce or birth control or women’s rights in general) any more than most Americans approved of the Catholic attempts at strongarming Catholic politicians in the past 4 years. (How is it that a good Catholic cannot support “safe, legal, and rare” abortion policy? How is it that a good Catholic cannot support contraception policy? Why aren’t “good” Catholic politicians held as accountable for their pro-death penalty views or pro-Iraq War views? It appeared that the Church was only holding SOME Catholics accountable for opposing Church teaching.)
Faith practices were used on both sides of the Ireland-Northern Ireland border in different ways. On the Northern Irish side, faith was used as a direct instrument to terrorize the people–Protestants who dared be friendly with Catholics were targeted by other Protestants and Catholics fraternizing with Protestants were targeted by other Catholics, in addition to the being killed for being on the “wrong” religious side (resembling, in many ways, the Civil Rights struggle in the South—the Klan was far more likely to kill a Black man than a White but killing a “n****r-loving” White was always acceptable; also, many Blacks resisted help from Whites out of concern that the White person was setting them up). On the Irish side, the Church controlled the Irish people’s very lives. Divorce was absolutely forbidden BY LAW, as was birth control (both under Church directives). A woman who became pregnant as a result of being raped couldn’t obtain an abortion without leaving the country, and if she was a minor in the same situation, the government could actually prevent her parents from taking her out of the country for ANY reason (passports could be taken and the parents could be jailed).
UKfordems,
Money helped cure Northern Ireland of its problems…
I’m a bit curious as to how you came to that conclusion.
The reality is that there isn’t a “cure” yet in the North; there is still rampant sectarianism against Catholics by Protestants. But also, the “cure” as you call it in the North of Ireland, was nothing to do with “money.” It was everything to do with a calculation that a peaceful political process would do more to unite Ireland [by Sinn Fein's Adams] than a continued war of attrition. That started nearly 20 years ago now. We’ve got the peaceful political process, still working itself out; and the attitudes in the South are changing too, considering that the economy is no longer called the “Celtic Tiger.” More and more politicians in the South and the North in Ireland are realizing that an all-Ireland economy may be helpful in these days of fiscal insanity. More investments on an all-Ireland basis, as well as transportation and other things are occurring.
Perhaps you think that Britain cannot afford its annual subvention to the North [it's expensive keeping hold of those colonies] any more, considering its own economic disaster, that Britain may at some point decide to “re-unite” Ireland of its own accord–to which I say, it’s way past time, of course.
In any event, “money” does in that respect “cure” the ill of Ireland being dispossessed for the past century of six of its counties in the North.
Except the conflict in Ireland was never really “religious,” was it? Religion was simply a defining term for the the Irish who were descendants of the English settlers from centuries ago, who have different accents and socioeconomic standing, and the Irish who were native Irish, and impoverished.
In that sense I agree: equalize economic and educational opportunities, and the hate and intolerance diminish.
I consider a religious war one in which the conversion of one party to the other’s religion would effectively end the war. Maybe the Crusades — but even there, economic motives created a momentum.
Sorry, Anna, but religion was more than “a defining term for the Irish”, it was a cause. Read up on the PROTESTANT treatment of the Irish who remained Catholic following 1690. Religion was slightly a part of the Scottish Nationalist cause but Scotland had become a very Protestant country following the deposing of Mary of Scotland. Mary’s woes rested in her staunch Catholicism while most of her subjects had converted to Protestantism, especially the very anti-Catholic Calvinism (Elizabeth was led to believe that Mary was a threat to her throne, again because of Mary’s Catholicism, even though Mary had forsworn any challenge to Elizabeth’s rule after seeking refuge in England–recall that Elizabeth directed that Mary’s son, James, would be the heir to the English throne as Elizabeth’s nearest relative) but, following Mary’s exile from Scotland, the Scots became even more Protestant.
During the English Civil War in the 1640s, Cromwell’s forces enacted harsh retribution from the Irish Catholics who’d supported the Catholic Charles I. This was the beginning of English (Protestant) overlords in Ireland, which set up the process by which the native Irish were forced to pay rent for small tracts of land on which to live (even land they’d been living on for generations). When James II (a Catholic) came to power, the Catholics in Ireland believed their lives would become easier and looked to James II, almost as a savior. Unfortunately, James wanted to restore the strength of the monarchy over Parliament, to which the Parliament responded by offering the kingdom to William of Orange (via his marriage to Mary) provided William and Mary ruled throught the consesnt of Parliament, something which William and Mary agreed. This began a new war between Protestant and Catholic, culminating in William’s win over James II at the Battle of the Boyne (in Ireland, by the way; James had fled there during the course of the war). This victory has remained a part of the Protestant Northern Irish mindset ever since (and has remained a sore point with Northern Irish Catholics for decades, especially when Protestants demand the right to march through Catholic neigborhoods). Over the next 150 years, the Catholics were treated little better than American slaves or Russian serfs by the Protestant English minority (maybe a better analogy would be South African Blacks under apartheid). During the harsh years of the 1840s (when the Great Famines plagued the island), hundreds of thousands of Irish emigrated to America, only to find conditions slightly better. Here, they faced persecution because of their religion (even from the older “Irish”, who were actually Protestant Scots-Irish who’d come from Ulster) with many businesses refusing employment with the “No Irish Need Apply” signs (there were many places in the North that would hire a Black man before ever considering an Irishman). It was only with the change in demographics that led to Irish Catholics gaining any headway in this country (most of those moving west were Protestants and, as the adage goes, “nature abhors a vacuum”, so the unwelcomed Irish Catholics were able to take over newly-vacated businesses and homes).
In the UK, Catholics REMAIN barred from consideration for the throne at ANY level (marriage to a Catholic removes you and your children and their offspring from ever being eligible); Catholics can run for Parliament, even be Prime Minister, but no Catholic can ever reside in Buckingham Palace or Windsor Castle (except as a part of the permanent staff).
Just because YOU have a certain definition for a religious war doesn’t make that definition THE definition. Perhaps you might want to read up on some European history, especially that of Middle Europe (Germany, Switzerland and the Low Countries), from the 16th Century. Whole towns were literally wiped off the face of the map because they were of the “wrong” denomination. Conversion was deemed unnecassary in many cases. The Spanish Reconquista was a religious war with conversion only allowing Jews and Muslims to remain where they had lived for generations (being uncovered as a practicing Jew or Muslim led to being charged with heresy and certain death) and the final conquest of Granada resulted in the expulsion of ALL Jews and Muslims with no chance of conversion (perhaps the Castilians had learned forced conversion didn’t work?).
Sorry, but we’ve got religious leaders in THIS country who use (or attempt to use) the Bible to force their limited views on those who don’t wish to believe the way they do. These people call it the “Culture Wars” but there’s no REAL struggle between “cultures”–American “culture” is supposed to be one that’s open to new ideas and accepting of a variety of beliefs, but the “culture warriors” only want THEIR ideas and beliefs to have value or be accepted.
“Hamas policemen wearing fatigues and cradling assault rifles stand guard at their usual posts, even where the buildings they have been assigned to protect no longer exist.”
Interesting that the Hamas gunmen are alive and well, and Hamas is lamenting how civilians died in the destroyed buildings. What were the Hamas ‘policemen’ previously guarding? Or were they just there to keep the ‘collateral damage’ civilians prisoners in buildings they knew were about to be targeted?
These limited incursions of its neighbors by Israel may seem like the actions of a cranky old man chasing the neighbor kids out of his yard. Maybe it makes him feel better, but it just makes all the neighborhood think he’s a nut.
But why should Israel simply tolerate terrorist attacks? Even if the attacks are feeble, like these unguided rockets that are sent off almost randomly into Israel by Palestinian jihadists, tolerating them without military response just invites more attacks, IMO.
I do believe that Israel has the technology to identify and destroy the source of these rockets. But instead they chose to attempt to topple Hamas, no doubt encouraged by how easily the US toppled Saddam Hussein and his Baath party. Perhaps they missed the point that the Baathists simply went underground and emerged in different forms, where they still foment insurgency and nearly created a civil war after Saddam fell. Six years later and we’re still stuck in Iraq, and likely will be for some time.
Israel should have handled it covertly, or “black ops” style if they wanted to take down the anatagonists. Instead, political posturing led to an ill-conceived invasion.
Perhaps this imitation of Bush’s style was their way of honoring the final days of his term of office.
“You have made Hamas a sympathetic figure in the world’s eyes and improved its support among the Palestinian people.”
Not to me. But maybe I dont count a part of the “world’s eyes”. Anyway these “world eyes” often seem to need glasses to me.
““Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades.”
I dont know Mr. Cohen but the hindsight is 20-20 game is a regional pasttime in the Middle East. Second favorite is conspiracy theories, the crazier the better. You should hear people talk – “Afif should have known not to use the west road on Tuesdays! Everyone knows this! That is the day the daughter of Commander X goes to the ladies beach! Afif should have known this! It was very reckless!”
If it werent Israel v Hamas (v Hezbollah once they finalize the details of their takeover of Lebanon) it would be different names, same game.
So No, I dont think “Israel” has learned anything. And I dont think “Hamas” has either.
I don’t think Israel has anything to learn. The ones that need to learn are the Palestinians and if they don’t, too bad for them.
I agree with UK for Dems in the sense that what happened in Ireland is relevant to the Middle East. Infact, not only The irish, but also must be includede tha traumatic spanish civil war events and the french WW2 underground actions.
Lets start by teyh french.
German occupants tried to separate the french resistants from the french civilians to taking the latter against the former, by actually taking retribution by killing hostages against the freedom fighters; did it work. No way, despite killing hostages all over Europe, the occupied civilians carried on adhering silently, stoically in some instances ith their own, never with the occupant, there were admittedly traitors, but that was what they were…traitors in the eyes of the beholding hostages.
Franco tried and tried again to muffle/stiffle opposition to his frankist/fascist regime. We all know also here how the story ends if it ends; the basque people carry on to this very day to wish for freedom.
IRA only did- if it holds which we dont know – not surrender but agreed to work for Northern Ireland in a decent agreement because everybody accepted to lower their expectations…
Israel by denying to Hamas the fact it was democratically chosen by the palestinians gives it the best ever moral ground which is absolute folly and suicidal for the israeli state.More Israel kills palestinians; more it binds; bounds the palestinian people with its own kin.
Being part french, I can assure you than old countries citizens still harbour a preferential fondness for their own provinces. French BRETONS ARE VERY PROUD OF THEIR OWN THAT IS WELL AFTER 500YS OF being french, it is crazy but so it is a fact.
So History says it, refusal to accept what is the choice of the other is plain madness.
More they fight more the other side keep its ways
But then will they ever learn
“…what happened in Ireland is relevant to the Middle East.”
“relevant,” yes; but not comparable.
Britain dispossessed Ireland of six counties, and made it part of the UK; at the same time, Britain gave the rest of Ireland limited sovereignty, which prevailed until the Anglo-Irish agreement a couple of decades ago [Thatcher]. Over the course of the past 40 years there have been little and big wars over the original dispossession of those six counties of the North in Ireland. Thousands died, were maimed, and it was increasingly costly.
But at some point, secret talks between John Hume, Gerry Adams, and British intermediaries, formed the basis of a strategy to create a long-term vision for a peaceful renegotiation of Ireland’s divided status. The parties to these talks agreed that there was no guarantee that the UK would give Ireland back the six counties, but all agreed that they thought they could reach their individual goals via political processes instead of war.
That hasn’t happened yet in the Middle East [Israel/Palestinian]. There have been no comparable leaders in Israel, and dishonest, corrupt, insane leaders in the US who together consistently draw up strategies to obstruct peaceful political processes. On the other side, there is likewise few leaders with the political strength to forge a political process [Abbas doesn't have the power to reign in Fatah's strongman]. Israel and the US are creating problems on one side; Hamas and Fatah are creating problems on the other side.
There are no leaders who have the political will or the political power. The US can do it, if we have the will, but do we? George Mitchell is a good start, I’ll say that much. But, it takes LEADERS on both sides who can bring their respective constituencies along with them.
Who are they? I don’t know.
The whole of Ireland was originally under UK rule. All but the six Counties were given full independence from the UK. As signed by Michael Collins. There was no part sovereignty. Northern Ireland had the right to leave British rule. There were referendums. The vast majority of residents in Northern Ireland are Protestant, who want to remain under British rule. There is a minority what are Catholic and want Ireland united. (There is a majority who favour one Ireland across the whole of the island of Ireland).
Northern Ireland is now being treated as a semi independent nation, nominally still under British rule, with guaranteed protections for Catholics in terms of Government and employment rights. The police are also reformed so that they are no longer a hated institution of the Queen.
There are very very many parallels with Ireland and the Middle East
That is totally untrue that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland are Protestants. I don’t know what the exact numbers are but it is more like 50-50.
Here are some numbers I got from a 2001 census:
43.76% Catholic, 53.13% Protestant, 0.39% Other, 2.72% none
I was off with my previous estimate but 53% is in no way a vast majority.
For those who say stop meddling, one factor I had not added that helped cure Ireland of its problems was The War Against Terror. There were many US Senators and Congressmen supporting and sponsoring Political events and dinners that paid for and led directly to the bombing of British citizens. 9/11 stopped that. NorAid died.
The situation in Northern Ireland has always been about religion. Nothing else. What lays behid calls for Nationalism and Unionism is religion.
Actually in terms of the economy, Northern Irish retail is doing brilliantly. Cross border trade with the € drawing equal to the £ is booming. Goods that were priced at €1.50 to the £ are a bargain.
Well, the UK is in deflation, so of course things are cheaper in the North. But, the economy in the North is taking a dive. Construction is literally flatlined. That means it’s going to get far more costly for Britain to pay out its subvention to the North. More on the dole…
But, it’s not just about “religion.” It’s about six counties that Britain keeps hanging onto as a last outpost of its empire.
Give it up, Ireland [the South] isn’t Catholic because immigrants have moved into the country at high rates over the past decade. The face of Ireland is changing just as the face of Europe is changing, and the face of America is changing. That will slow, probably for a while, with the global downturn, keeping people from moving, and fewer jobs in the Celtic Tiger.
But, don’t try to use reductionist “it’s all about religion” arguments about Ireland, unless you’re prepared to admit that Britain’s protestant bigots are causing the troubles. I’m familiar with the history and the political landscape.
See above – do not know what happened there.
I agree, and it was shameful.
It seems that any small military action always has blowback, if you do no obliterated the oppositon like we did in WW II. Comparativly Iraq is a small exercise. At best Korea was a stalemate and did not get rid of the problem.
A corallary to Larry’s point is that Hammas has the sympathy of the Arabian street which guarantee’s revenue. We will get blowback on that one alongwith Iran dominating the area.
Poverty guarantee’s the supply of cheap human bombs. Male bombers get virgins, not certain what the women bombers get other than revenge.
So it goes on – responding is kind of like barking at the moon.
But hasn’t the concept of warfare changed, Korea, like Vietnam, and even Iraq, another battle in a larger asymmetric war between east and west, the strategies of ww2, now history?
And isn’t terrorism, and even the Israeli-Middle East actions, symptomatic of that asymmetric war?
And if that is true, how do we best approach the problem, this greater war, terrorism included?
Wouldn’t it require an integrated appraoch of the military, the political and the economic, (all done within the framework of REAL American democarcy, and values, ideally?)
(I sound like Wild Bill Donovan, don’t I? –Sorry)
Wouldn’t it require an integrated appraoch of the military, the political and the economic, (all done within the framework of REAL American democarcy, and values, ideally?)
—————————————
I agree and hope the combination of Hillary, Mitchel and Holbruk achieve that. Note that Hillary made a big deal of USAID, yet she is the hawk.
I guess, my emphasis is that Isreal used a bludgen military approach and that type of operation always produces blowback. Now the bigger picture might be that Isreal wants to anialate Gaza to get the offshore gas reserves allow populating it. Certanly this is extreem, but we did it to the American Indians
I agree with you, you’re right.
Kissinger and Associates are gone too?
Another major player which I do NOT see – the capital letters are in for real, is the education gap between the palestinian street/arab street and the israeli/western street.
Say what we want, Isreal/the West have stopped since a way longtime to follow the advice of crazed religious leaders- admittredly in Isreal, some crazy rabbis do still lead a nasty dance, but over all their role on the isreali society is minimal
the problem is that there is gap between male/female academic education, and a huge gap between what I call classical studies – math/language/science/neutral-reason thinking and the religious studies for the muslim world.
One would say that the muslim who live in the west are better educated and certainly better equipped wth mental educationnal abilities to form a fair judgement than in the so called arab street.
As long as we do not dare to speak the truth; i.e. most muslim countries do stiffle free thinking thus preventing the rise of a real educated middle class , we all are in for trouble.
Not true that the orthodox rabbis don’t have power in Israel. There is no separation of church and state. Just google to get information about how discriminatory the divorce process is against Israeli women, and it all controlled by the orthodox rabbis.
yeah, keep on cursing Israel. and forget all about the hamas terrorists. very convenient. Its easy to sit here and judge what Israel does to protect herself, whether you agree with her or not.
I am not forgetting about HAMAS. I just find it wrong that Israel has now adopted the position of terrorist. By doing so it undermines its own legitimacy.
‘I just find it wrong that Israel has now adopted the position of terrorist.’
thats your interpretation. not the truth. always 2 sides to a story.
Using phosphorus against civilians is terrorism. I agree with the State of Israel; I do not agree with the Government of Israel.
you need proof for that. thats just conjecture, and not proof. Prove the same in a court of law, and you have a valid point. till you don’t, its a rumour.
2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6075408.stm
2009
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5556027.ece
More
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5575070.ece
the bbc article is 3 years old. get updated.
the times article is current. what did the Israelis admit? Read it first, and instead of blindly dismissing the Israeli claims, acknowledge them.
Gaza has proven to be a public relations disgrace to Israel.
benny, my husband has seen the photos of the incoming rounds. He says they are phosphorus. He was a missile systems guy in Iraq. He knows his stuff. He refers to them as Whiskey Pete or something like that. The Israelis claim they’re only using them for cover but that stuff drifts, esp. in an urban environment. Very, very bad. The burns go through everything. Very hard to treat. God forbid that shit is inhaled. Water won’t put it out either.
Understood. but according to their spokesman, it isn’t illegal.
and you have to understand the situation. If hamas fires rockets from crowded areas and locations, what is Israel expected to do? keep quiet. no.
No, it is illegal to use it on civilian populations, but Israel is taking a legalese way out by saying it is only using it for cover. But the problem is using it in such tight confined spaces WILL produce civilian casualties. Like cigarette smoke can’t be controlled to only target smokers, this stuff can’t be controlled to only kill Hamas. And it’s not a pleasant way to die. And if Israel were smart, they wouldn’t be using a hammer on Palistine where a surgeon’s scalpel is required. IE the Bush method out rooting out terrorists. Bomb the ever living shit out of the joint and letting God sort them out.
I respectfully disagree, strawberry. Israeli citizens face terror everyday, afraid of who might get hit.
Its easy for us to want Israel to act according to how we want them to behave.
And hamas fires their ammunitions from densely populated areas and locations. so blame them for the reaction, not Israel.
Israel is tired of this nonsense from the hamas.
benny, HAMAS is not fighting the war with bombs and rockets….ugh. They want Israel to do what they are doing to win the PR war. In fact, if I were Hamas, I would actually want to kill as few Israelis as possible just to show the world how monsterous Israel really is. You know that whole David vs. Goliath thing? Seriously, those POS rockets they fire into Israel are quite pathetic and I’m sure if Hamas really wanted to, they could do a whole lot more damage. They are trying to goad Israel into doing exactly what they are doing. My God, just look at Iraq. That’s how real insurgencies fight. How many soldiers a day did we lose until we changed tactics? Hell, there’s still Iraqis dying everyday over there. I don’t give a shit about Hamas or the Israeli government…I just want the innocent Palestinains caught in the crossfire saved.
The BBC article is 3 years old because it was to prove they used it before.
lol, thats a good one. then why didn’t you mention it before?
Please note – I did, I dated them.
now don’t you think uk that is a tad one sided. as i recall hamas is a designated terrorist organization.
We designated them a terrorist organisation. After they got elected and that only happened because Israel undermined the PLO.
I am not in favour of HAMAS, but Israel bombed the citizens of Gaza right in to their hands.
yeah sure, its all Israels fault. Israel was just protecting herself. and now, all sit very comfortably in their respective countries and blame Israel. how convenient.
This is not the fault of Israelis, this is the fault of the Government of Israel. Israel used illegal weapons against a civilian population, when it has the ability to remotely target individuals.
13 Israelis were killed during this war. 13 more than over the last few years of rocket fire by HAMAS. 7 of those were killed by Israel.
1345 Gazans were killed by Israel.
That discrepancy is a disgrace.
‘illegal weapons against a civilian population’? where did you get that idea? read that article again. and to what the spokesman said.
You talk only about nos. but this wasn’t about that. It was the terrorism the Israelis faced, when any missile attack could mean death for any of them. That IS terrorism.
But if your dependence is only on nos., you wouldn’t understand it.
Israel did what any civilized nation would do. Protect her citizens from terrorism.
How many Israeli citizens died from HAMAS rockets over the last 3 years?
Its not the no. of deaths. Thats what you don’t understand. Its the threat and fear that those missiles MAY hit them. Thats what TERRORISM is all about. understand???
Israel has done what she can for her citizens. to not be under such kind of fear.
The answer is NONE. So for a threat Israel killed 1345 people in Gaza, a piece of land it leaves in limbo. Unable to get food, water or health care without the say so of Israel.
Israelis and Palestinians suffer not because of the policies of Israel, but because of deliberate encouragement of Israeli extremists, by US Political “Hawks” looking for cheap votes.
No one more blindly defends the policies of Israel than the US and that is not a good thing.
no. did hamas send rockets into Israel or not??? simple question. that terrorises people there. Its as simple as that.
This deflection with the no. of deaths is a smokes-screen. Its the terror of those people that are important to Israel.
You talk about Israeli extremists, and the U.S that supports them.
But you conveniently forget hamas, which is a terrorist organisation. and islamic extremists. No, can’t talk about them and their atrocities. Thats whats missing.
If you were cut off without access to the Sea, with land access controlled by aggressive neighbour, who is armed to the teeth with the ability to kill you in what ever way they wanted, would you not fire what amounts to nothing more than a weak firework towards your enemy?
The firepower does not match.
doesn’t need to match. Israel is a nation, while the hamas are terrorists. get real.
You call it fireworks. But the reality is that the populace is terrified. and Israel would not tolerate that.
You talk of “terrorist organisations”, but it was the US and Israel that defined HAMAS in that way (The Blairite UK meekly followed). The ANC and Nelson Mandela were also defined as terrorists by the US.
uk, this isn’ a contest of who killed more? and by having better weapons doesn’t make israel the terrorist here. that is faulty thinking to say the least.
Hamas sympathetic? To who, their supporters? I can’t argue that, but they sure pushed me away from the “poor palestine always being targeted argument”.
Hamas’s consistent threats and attacks on Israel are making me less inclined to support them.
so, if Hamas solidified supports with the anti Israel crowd, my response is, no duh.
For me, it’s the opposite, this latest action, coupled with the neocon geopolitical strategy, was simply revolting.
I wish it weren’t so, but the Palestinians were crated, then bombed.
I don’t see Israel as progressing, whatsoever, and it actions can’t be allowed to isolate the US internationally, which is what has been happening.
When China and Russia get first dibs on the oil, in part as a reaction to US Israeli policy, we’re in trouble. And this is a long term developement, a cumulative effect of past Israeli actions.
And our nation must progress economically and culturally to succeed, for the long term.
Hamas Principles
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. ”
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
“After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1035414.html
So the US is for a peaceful 2 state solution.
Hamas is as well.
Is Israel?
Hamas terrorists choose not to expose themselves by firing these weapons from open areas. They construct launch pads in densely populated regions in Gaza, using the local Palestinian population as a shield because they do not care if their fellow Palestinians are killed by their own misfiring rockets (as frequently occurs) or by retaliatory strikes by Israel. The leaders of Hamas, like their ideological soul mates in Hezbollah, actually prefer that Israel hits back because they know that if civilians inadvertently are casualties, the international community will blame the Israelis.
Yeah, and…so what you’re saying is (as well as Larry) Israel is playing right into Hamas hands. How smart is that? …Well, we now know, it wasn’t. Actually anyone who pays attention to history, knew exactly how this would play out. I did, and I’m just a bored housewife.
Hamas does not represent all Palestinians. It physically seized control of the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2007 in an armed conflict with its opposition, the more moderate Fatah party, led by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, collapsing the unity government.
Israel set up a blockade of the strip as a reaction and Hamas only intensified its missile campaign on Israel, leading us to the current military operation. The group receives funding from Iran, as does Hezbollah — the other heavily armed radical Islamist group facing Israel from southern Lebanon. It fought Israel to a draw two summers ago.
If the people had real economic opportunity from sources other than Hamas and Hezbollah, we would see the street support for them diminish rapidly.
With Iran and other Arab funding, yes Hamas and Hezbollah fund their terrorism, but they also buy grassroot support with schooling, medical care, and income. Literally, families can get eyeglasses for their children faster and easier by just asking their local terrorist. And we wonder how Hamas gets elected in Gaza and Hezbollah in Lebanon? Duh!
In 2005 the Palestinians are given Gaza, free of any Jews. Do they begin building the state they say they want, constructing schools and roads and hospitals? No. They launch rockets at civilians and dig a 300-yard tunnel under the border to attack Israeli soldiers and bring back a hostage.
Why are they neglecting their own people in order to carry out this neverending warfare against Israelis?
Absolute rubbish and Israeli Government propaganda. Israel is and remains a terrorist state that has learnt from the people who first persecuted them.
The reality of the Gaza strip is that, as with much of International law, Israel could not be bothered dealing with the laws that govern military occupation.
That is why it returned stolen land, however Israel controls the borders of Gaza. The Ocean border is controlled and patrolled by sea and air.
The United Nations recognises Gaza as Occupied Territory.
What part was given?
Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water and blood in the Gaza Strip.
The International Court of Justice treats Gaza as part of the occupied territories.
Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on “the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories” wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel “in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.”
What you say is nothing more than Israeli Government propaganda. Israel is and remains a terrorist state that has learnt from the people who first persecuted them. The reality of the Gaza strip is that, as with much of International law, Israel could not be bothered dealing with the laws that govern military occupation.
That is why it returned stolen land, however Israel controls the borders of Gaza. The Ocean border is controlled and patrolled by sea and air.
The United Nations recognises Gaza as Occupied Territory.
What part was given?
Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water and blood in the Gaza Strip.
The International Court of Justice treats Gaza as part of the occupied territories.
Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on “the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories” wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel “in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.”
That is patently untrue. Israel was founded on terrorism and it remains a terrorist state that has learnt everything from the people who first persecuted the Jews. The reality of the Gaza strip is that Israel can not be bothered dealing with the laws that govern military occupation. So it just breaks International law.
Israel controls the borders of Gaza. The Ocean border is controlled and patrolled by sea and air. Israel controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water and blood in the Gaza Strip.
The United Nations recognises Gaza as Occupied Territory.
The International Court of Justice treats Gaza as part of the occupied territories.
Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on “the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories” wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel “in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.”
Gaza has not been “given”.
How exactly were the Palestinians “given” Gaza?
Israel is and remains a terrorist state. It just ignores International Law. The reality of the Gaza strip is that it could not be bothered dealing with the laws that govern military occupation.
That is why it “returned” this stolen land. However Israel controls the borders of Gaza. The Ocean border is controlled and patrolled by sea and air. Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water and blood in the Gaza Strip.
The United Nations recognises Gaza as Occupied Territory. The International Court of Justice treats Gaza as part of the occupied territories.
Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on “the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories” wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel “in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.”
Israel helped create Hamas just as we helped create al Quaeda–almost identical reasons for the support with identical results.
I don’t see how Israel helped itself with this last 3-week war but maybe there are things we don’t know that they do. There is no way to support the killing and destruction inflicted on civilians but even Human Rights Watch said they used mosques and neighborhoods for their weapons caches and to launch attacks.
What I don’t see discussed are the 2 articles from yesterday and the previous day about Hamas executing, shooting, blinding and torturing people it SUSPECTS of being Fatah collaborators (no trial, no nothin’) and then Fatah capturing suspected Hamas collaborators in the West Bank.
http://tinyurl.com/csnzdq
http://tinyurl.com/aemuqz
So, if this is how the Palestinians treat each other don’t you think Israel has reason to fear the
Palestinian attitude toward Israel? Israel is not paranoid for no reason….
Also, I always find it curious that Israel is held to a higher standard than the rest of the world.
Where was the outrage about this Syrian killing? There was none. Where is the national and international outrage about the revenge killings going on in the aftermath of the Gaza war? There is none.
One last comment: people are naive to think that once the Palestinians get a state the whole Muslim extremists-hating the USA and the west will disappear.
Israel gave nothing.
The reality of the Gaza strip is that, as with much of International law, Israel could not be bothered dealing with the laws that govern military occupation.
Israel controls the borders of Gaza. The Ocean border is controlled and patrolled by sea and air. Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water and blood in the Gaza Strip.
The United Nations recognises Gaza as Occupied Territory.
The International Court of Justice treats Gaza as part of the occupied territories.
Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on “the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories” wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel “in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.”
By contravening International Law, Israel has a terrorist Government.
true matt! the governments and agencies who helped put the people of gaza in this mess, and yes there are many beyond the usual list to be condemned here, will find something else to use to manage the masses and raise their ire so they’ll leave their masters alone. and do we honestly not think that doesn’t happen here? i give you the salvo case for example.
anytime anyone in my view thinks it all the other side’s fault and fails to bring both to account is writing a false premise here.
The excess postings are not my fault.
I used to travel past the Canary Wharf office block in London, that was blown up by the IRA, every day. Even though the sight of the destroyed office block sickened me, the thought of Britain retaliating to such a terroist act by bombing the people of Ireland would have horrified me. As a British citizen I never blamed the people of Ireland (North or South) for the bombings in England. Even if there was widespread support of the IRA by the Irish, I would never had wanted to bomb Irish citizens as ‘punishment’ (though I am sure the UK army and police committed horrible crimes against the Irish Catholics in NI in response, and this I am ashamed of).
Likewise, Hamas terroist attacks should not be punished by Isreal by killing innocent civilians in Palestine. And I prayed after 9-11 that the US would not retaliate in the Middle East (but sadly they did). To retaliate is to breed more hate and anger and frustration etc etc.
I have some sympathy for Israel supporters who feel they are constantly cast as the baddies. As a British citizen, it has always frustrated me how Americans (and is that an Aussie above-typical;-)) think of the British as ‘occupiers’. Like UKFORDEMS said, it was the majority of the people of NI that wanted to stay under British rule. Many Prime Ministers would have loved to have given NI ‘back’ to Ireland, and Churchill suggested that Belfast should be bombed to the ground to ’solve the problem’. One of his less finer moments. [Interesting, even Hillary Clinton – my idol- annoyed me in her autobiography when she called Paisly a bigot or such like, which seemed to me to dismiss the plight of Protestants in NI, who had also suffered terribly at the hands of Catholics!)
Undoubtedly the improved economy in Ireland, the mobility of its people (many many Irish working in London!) and the change of political scene (which started with the Oklahoma bombing, which made the US support of bombers seem hypocritical and diminshed Sinn Fein’s fund raising power) contributed to peace in NI. I hope Palestine is gentrified like NI.
On a feminist note- the women of NI do not have the same abortion rights of UK women (although MPs in London are trying to correct this), so the Catholic church has had a huge influence in NI.
The Israel govt and its policies are the single biggest threat to peace outside of Al Queda. They treat the poor people of Gaza as targets in shooting practice and then cry when the world calls them on it. Come on President Obama, do something for world peace and ZERO OUT THE GODDAMN FOREIGN AID BUDGET FOR THESE THUGS!
Israel vs. Hamas: Civilization vs. terror
Palinstinian people, caught between two assholes.
I am tired of listening to naieve americans who have selective memory. Why don’t you stop thinking like an american with christian values and start thinking like an arab muslim? Our values have no meaning in their world. What is the objective of Hamas, Hezbollah, and their sponsor Iran? I think that the money that the Arab states have earned from oil could have made the middle east a utopian paradise. Instead their hate for anything not arab or muslim existing in the middle east destroys life in this world. The Palestinians have been a pawn in the arab world. They wind up killing their own children while their arab brethren egg them on. From the time Israel became a state, the Arab states have tried to eliminate it. Gradually, as each Arab state have become more westernized they have been willing to hold a cease fire, but have encouraged the Palestinians to sacrifice their lives to do the work for them. Golde Meir once told an arab leader, when you love your children more than you hate us, we will have peace. The Arab leaders have used hate to continue their purpose of eliminating Israel. Many of the critics of Israel have selective memory….I think that if you make sure that the palestinians go to normal schools instead of brainwashing hate schools,and become educated instead of focusing on killing Israelis, there would be peace. Why do we not expect any Arab country to contribute to the advancement in medicine, science, and literature? It’s not their lack of money. Perhaps when you get the answer to that question you might see Israel as the victim among many enemies and not the agressor.
regina, thanks for the pointing that out. it takes more than copying articles from counterpunch to make a real point.
Israel and Hamas: No Moral Equivalency
By Kfir Orgad
Israel and Hamas have been engaged in a war for the past three weeks. While the news and other media outlets consistently refer to this as a “cycle of violence”, no moral equivalency exists between the actions of Hamas and those of Israel.
Hamas is an organization that is deeply committed to the removal of the state of Israel. It’s charter states that its ultimate goal is the driving of the Jewish people from the land. In Israel, on the other hand, even the most right wing of all politicians such as Benjamin Netanyahu have called for a two-state solution and recognized the peoples right to exist. Even in rhetoric, Hamas members will often refer to Israelis as “Zionists” so as to not give any legitimacy to the state of Israel while even hard-line Israelis always refer to Palestinians as a people. Historically, there has never been a Palestinian state so Israelis would be more justified in calling the inhabitants of the west bank and the gaza strip “Egyptians” or “Jordanians” but they afford them decency that is never returned to them. On the Palestinian side, you have a society that glorifies suicide bombers and encourages kids to follow suit. Streets are named after them and images of them cloud the streets of the Palestinian side. On the Israeli side, you have children idolizing great military leaders that eventually gave them peace and hope such as Menachem Begin that signed a peace accord with Egypt and Yitzchak Rabin that brought the Oslo process into full force. In Israel, you have Arab members of Parliament that actually voice support for the end of the state in the Israeli parliament unlike in any Arab society where Jews are not given any voice or any legitimacy. In Israel, you have human rights groups like B’Tselem and Shalom Achshav (Peace Now) that fight to assure that the Palestinian people are treated with respect while on the Palestinian side, people are hung for display for even showing the Jews any kind of sympathy. It truly is a tale of two societies. One wants to live in peace, while the other worships militarism, colonial advancement, and pride.
As the situation exists, the Gaza strip was completely void of an Israeli presence until this recent incursion. Israel unilaterally left Gaza in 2005 to see if the Palestinians can actually move towards a peaceful society that wants peace. The Israeli government had to go into the settlements and forcibly remove the Jewish citizens that lived there. The images of Jews being removed from their homes, by other Jews nonetheless, is the most horrific thought for the Jewish psyche to grasp and is on par with images of the Holocaust. Israel did this for peace. They were in turn met with an election of an organization committed to their destruction. They were met with weapons smuggling. They were met with kidnappings. They were met with nearly 8600 rockets flying into Israel on a daily basis completely destroying any sense of normalcy for nearly 1 million resident of the Israeli southern region. Even with the military operation to stop these rockets, Hamas is still throwing out heavy rhetoric that it will not stop the firing of rockets and will continue their campaign of terror.
Israel is a small nation and has lots of enemies. Like any government, it has to be tough in the eyes of terror. Giving Hamas any sense of a psychological victory will bring about a world of hell to the Israeli society more than has been suffered until this point just as the withdrawal by Israeli forces from Lebanon in 2000 encouraged Hezbollah to become more bold. Israel can not let its citizens live in a blanket of fear where rockets could fall on them at any point during the day. This is simply a matter of uncompromising terrorists fighting a nation of compromising counter-terrorists. Israel wants peace, but Hamas has made its position very clear and that position is that they will never want peace. This situation has no moral equivalency and is not a “cycle of violence”. It is simple right and wrong. Israel is right. Hamas is wrong.
Article 51 of the United Nations Charter reserves to every nation the right to engage in self-defense against armed attacks. As Professor Alan Dershowitz has also noted, “The claim that Israel has violated the principle of proportionality — by killing more Hamas terrorists than the number of Israeli civilians killed by Hamas rockets — is absurd. First, there is no legal equivalence between the deliberate killing of innocent civilians and the deliberate killings of Hamas combatants. Under the laws of war, any number of combatants can be killed to prevent the killing of even one innocent civilian. Second, proportionality is not measured by the number of civilians actually killed, but rather by the risk posed. What would the USA do if terrorists fired thousands of rockets targeting U.S. cities? After 9/11, we saw that America took the same type of action as Israel by launching military strikes against the terrorists.
I find it strange that anyone who defends Israel raises issues concerning International Law.
The reality of the Gaza strip is that, as with much of International law, Israel could not be bothered dealing with the laws that govern military occupation.
Israel controls the borders of Gaza. The Ocean border is controlled and patrolled by sea and air. Israel still controls every person, every good, literally every drop of water and blood in the Gaza Strip.
The United Nations recognises Gaza as Occupied Territory.
The International Court of Justice treats Gaza as part of the occupied territories.
Richard Falk, United Nations Special Rapporteur on “the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories” wrote that international humanitarian law applied to Israel “in regard to the obligations of an Occupying Power and in the requirements of the laws of war.”
By contravening International Law, Israel has a terrorist Government.
Gaza is NOT an occupied territory.
Israel left Gaza in 2005, giving Palestinians the chance to run their own lives. Despite this, more than 6300 rockets and mortars have been fired into Israel since then.
Now, regarding Richard Falk
Here is what we know about Mr Falk:
He supported the Iranian revolution and attacked Jimmy Carter for labeling the Ayatollah Khomeini a religious fanatic. His love for Iran is shown with thsi quote “Having created a new model of popular revolution based, for the most part, on nonviolent tactics, Iran may yet provide us with a desperately-needed model of humane governance for a third-world country”
He is a 9/11 conspiracy theorist
He argues that Vietnam war protesters were entitled to bomb facilities in the US as a form of protest
It is no surprise then that he supports suicide bombings as a valid method of struggle.
Compares Israel to Nazi Germany
So Mr Falk is a huge champion of human rights – the right to suicide bomb, and the right of that nice peaceful human rights loving Ayatollah.
uk, sigh, one more time, hamas is a terrorist organization with a charter to destroy israel. breath deep and say to yourself “i’ll actually think about that.” hate to ruin your saturday but there are two wrongs here.
The ANC was a terrorist organisation acxcording to the US.
US independence day is a celebration of terrorism.
The US killed almost as many UK soldiers in Iraq than were killed by “Insurgents”.
What does that teach you about terrorism?
Reading everyone’s comments definitely informs…
Has Israel Learned Anything was the question and what did it gain and lose in it’s war against Gazans? It seems straightforward enough to answer these questions objectively, if one is willing to take one’s own bias out of the equation. When it comes to looking towards a real and lasting peace, wouldn’t it be useful to us all to try to understand, again without the bias that forms our experience, our opinion and our hatred, to fairly assess what it is the Palestinians would require as well as what it is the Israelis would require to function in peace, without regard to each other’s right to exist, as is required right here in the United States. Is there anything to ponder when one considers American history, that might shed light on how to resolve differences in the Middle East, i.e, can look to the civil rights movement, or any other struggle within our country that we have overcome, to help in our attitudes of what is playing out with Israelis and Palestinians?
I was just wondering if any of the people who complain about Israel’s aggressive actions live anywhere near Ashkelon or Ashdod or any of the other places that Hamas has been bombing these last several years.
I would request that some of these people lead by example and move to these areas, have their homes shelled, have the lives of their children threatened and then come out and state that Israel should not aggressively attack the terrorists in Gaza.
I am sure you are very comfortable in you positions at Yale, Princeton, and Berkeley, etc. On behalf of the Jews living in Israel, I apologize if responding to attacks on our wives and our children makes your existence a little less cushy. Perhaps you should focus more on the plight of the baby seals.
i am sure 400000 people living in an area the size of Princetown would react in the same way. The only people who do not want peace in Israel are extremists in the US; Israeli citizens want peace.
Bigots should get out of the way.
While Israel and Hamas were involved in their conflict, look at what else was going on with regards to Israeli prospects for long term growth stemming from potential revenue stream from this discovery of oil…
http://houston.bizjournals.com/houston/stories/2009/01/19/daily5.html?ana=yfcpc
Monday, January 19, 2009, 12:39pm CST
Noble Energy finds ‘significant’ gas offshore Israel
EXCERPT
Houston Business Journal – by Ford Gunter Reporter
Both sides (whomever they may be at a particular time and focus of wrestling in the so-called ‘middle east’) are continually playing within a game programmed by others with the intention of stopping development in this region of the world.
Non-stirred up people, enjoying relative peace and occasions of reasonable cooperation with their neighbors, could solve the common problems facing the region, such as water resources development.
There IS an enemy, and that enemy, by employing ‘public relations’ (formerly termed ‘propaganda’) methods, actively resists having a name attached to it, or its operations.
But it can be identified by its methods. IT is anti-development.
Peoples living in an environment of improving standard of living, with improved relations with neighbors near and less near; with improving education and its associated useful technologies (not just digital toys for amusements) will naturally NOT TOLERATE being looked upon as pawns or herded cattle in a usurous scheme of having an empire lord over them and denying them their God-given Humanity.
So, it is HUMANITY against the anti-development “IT.”
IT is slippery. HUMANITY is endowed with God’s own creativity to shape our environment.
So to hell with IT. Let’s all get to play.. er, work.
God bless us everyone.
athy, yeah? so? Noble Energy (NE) discovered a large amount of natural gas deep in the ocean, what is your point? Barrick Gold (ABX) has discovered what is perhaps the largest field of gold & copper in Baluchistan. Last week in response to Strawberrybitch claiming Gaza has no natural resources I mentioned among other rescorces “enough natural gas off shore to power Gaza…”. Is it your opinion all of the gas is off Gaza’s & not Israel’s shore? Are you a deep sea driller? A geologist? How much do you know about the find? Apparently not much.
Why in hell does Barrick Gold have their grimy little claws in Baluchistan?
We do know about Bush Sr and Barrick, don’t we?
Couldn’t we PLEASE let the Baluchistanis control their own resources? (Along with the people in African countries, et al.)
Anyone not familiar with Kissinger’s NSM 200 should become so. The essence is that the darked skinned people and some other non-English speakers can DIE because we blessed ones are claiming their natural resources.
athy, Why don’t your Hamas buddies develope some solar power? They have a lot of sunshine or won’t Iran give them $$$$ for that purpose?
justsomeone-
you have no right to assume ANYTHING about what opinions I hold regarding this piece of information.
Please do not get so rattled when people present FACTS.
A fact is a Fact.
Let people connect the dots for themselves.
This info is presented as an FYI (For your info).
Thanks.
And I sincerely thank you for posting it!
Gary
Matt, hang in there & know that 80% of the NQ crowd was anti-Israel way before the 22 day conflict. For reasons unknown to me they are committed Arab & Muslim apologists, incapable of objective thought on the topic. The hypocricy of it all is mind boggling, they’ll advocate for gay rights, women’s rights, animal rights, diversity, tolerance, etc & then, in the same breath, shill for Hamas. Weird. Hundreds of people can get hacked & burned to death in the Congo, it won’t get covered here…more than 300,000 killed in Darfur, not much interest here at NQ, etc but let Israel get involved & the thread will go on & on & on & on & on. This crowd liked Clinton’s Oslo, Israel whittled down to a defenseless size postage stamp. Yet I’ve never heard anyone here brag about signing the deed of THEIR house over to any Native American Indian tribe packing up & going back to Europe or Africa. Although, in all fairness, there has been mucho sympathy voiced for tolerating & rewarding illegal immigration, who knows maybe it’s just a demographic thing: side with majorities, whoever has the most kids wins becomes the darling of the progressive crowd even if ultimately it leads to their own progressive cultural demise.
History 101.
Israel became a nation about 1300 BCE, two thousand years before the rise of Islam. The people of modern day Israel share the same language and culture shaped by the Jewish heritage and religion passed through generations starting with the founding father Abraham. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
After the Romans conquered Jerusalem about 2,000 years ago, Jewish people were expelled and dispersed to the Diaspora, and the Land of Israel was ruled by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire, and by the British Empire.
Throughout centuries Jews prayed to return from the Diaspora to Israel. During the first half of the 20th century there were major waves of immigration of Jews back to Israel from the Arab countries and from Europe. In 1948 Jews reestablished their sovereignty over their ancient homeland with the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of a Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The Palestinian National Charter adopted by the PLO states this fact in the first article .
The area called Palestine included the territories of present day Israel and Jordan. Under Lausanne agreement of 1923 Turkey transferred all claims to Palestine to mandatory power Britain. In 1922 Britain allocated nearly 80% of Palestine to Transjordan. In 1947 UN partitioned this remaining land into two states, a second Arab state, Palestine, and Israel. The great majority of Arabs in greater Palestine and Israel share the same culture, language and religion. The Arabs in the area began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel. Virtually all the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza in the West Bank of Jordan River have complete autonomy under the rule of the Palestinian Authority.
Nation states actually started after the Renaissance, thus I regard your use of the term “nation” in the first sentence as a potential source of confusion.
In my opinion, there is an empire extant today, which cannot be seen on maps. It can be given various names, but is notably characterized by its philosophy — always tending toward racism, to say the least; viewing humankind as beasts competing for limited resources in a “survival-of-the-mightiest” world; Malthusian (actually plagiarized from earlier times by the East India Company to propagandize for their crappy geopolitical games; and anti-development (God forbid the darkies should live in an environment allowing them to become educated and figure this shit out.) and its methods — Divide and conquer, or “let’s you and him fight” (and we’ll buy up what’s left after), etc.
The empire has no respect for the General Welfare or the “pursuit of happiness” (in the sense the founders of the U.S.A. regarded it).
Somewhat separately:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Land_of_Israel#History_vs._Promises
Also:
Israelites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites
I really should have listed drug-pushing explicitly among methods. The empire will also go to great lengths to stop meaningful regulation of its monetary-financial apparatus.
History 102.
The UN partition plan of 1947 was rejected by all the Arab countries. Arab leadership in Israel and in the countries surrounding Israel, planned a Jihad, holy war, against Israel and encouraged the Arabs to leave Israel promising their return after they purge the land of Jews. The great majority of Arabs left withDuring 1940’s through 1950’s nearly ALL the Jews had to flee from Arab countries to avoid persecution and pogroms. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is estimated to be a million. This number is greater than the number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948, estimated as 343,000
Matt,
Thanks for the info.
Also, here is a map that may be of interest-
“Imperial History of the Middle East”
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html
Histoty 102(:
Arab refugee problem was created by the seven Arab countries that attacked Israel in 1948. Arab refugees were intentionally not integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the fact total territory of Arab countries is about 700 times greater than that of Israel. Out of about 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has not been absorbed into their own peoples’ lands. Arab nations still maintain generations of the descendants of the refugees in so called “refugee camps” under squalid conditions with the hope that someday they will dislodge the Jews in Israel. The money spent by the Arab countries on armaments would be sufficient to build houses for all so called “refugees”. Arab countries should be encouraged to care for their poor population instead of spending their richest resources in the world on armaments and development of terrorist groups such as Osama Bin Laden from Saudi Arabia.
Since 1948, after three generations the descendants of the Arab refugees are still called “refugees” and are supported by UN “refugee” funds! With the highest birth rate in Arab countries this population has now grown to about four million. In negotiations, Arab leadership requests the “right of return” of this mass of millions into the tiny land of Israel. The settlement of millions of Arabs in Israel would immediately eliminate Israel as a Jewish state. This is the real aim of the Arab countries, to achieve by supposedly “peaceful” means what they could not achieve by unceasing violence in whole scale wars and daily terrorism.
The responsibility for keeping the Arab population who are descendants of the Arab refugees, rests only on the shoulders of the Arab countries that created the problem by attacking Israel in 1948.
Quote from Ralph Galloway, a former head of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), in Amman, capital of Jordan, in August 1958:
“The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don’t give a damn whether the refugees live or die.”
History 103-104 (:
The Temple Mount in Jerusalem is the holiest site for Jews. It was the site of the Beit HaMikdash (”Temple”) built by King Solomon (950 BCE), which was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar (587 BCE), rebuilt in 541 BCE, and then destroyed again by the Roman army in 70 CE leading to the exile of Jews from Israel. Al Aqsa Mosque and Shrine Of Omar were built at the site of the ancient Jewish temples. The Arabic name for Jerusalem “el-KuDS” is derived from the Arabic name “BeT el-MaKDeS”, a translation of the Hebrew “BeiT ha-MiKDaSH”, the name of the Jewish Temple
Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths. Arabs recently burnt the Tomb of Joseph and the ancient synagogue in Jericho . To this days Arab Waqf in control of the Temple Mount does not allow Jews to pray in the Temple Mount. Jews pray facing Jerusalem as the location of the Beit Hamikdash. Muslims pray facing their holy city Mecca with their backs toward Jerusalem. Throughout the ages the Arabs have ignored The Temple Mount and renewed interest only recently because of their political exigencies and not religious history
History – Graduate Level
The King-Crane Commission Report, August 28, 1919
http://www.hri.org/docs/king-crane/
Interesting information. I had never heard about this.
Here is more info-presented on an FYI basis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King-Crane_Commission
Highlights of the King-Crane Commission
NOTE: The neutrality of this wikipedia article is disputed-see link for discussion details regarding what is in dispute.
EXCERPT:
Syria, Palestine, Iraq, Kurdistan
Looks like HAMAS went TOOOOOO FAR. Even if just looking at the public perception, their constant propaganda trying to make people think that Israel should have continued ignoring their strikes and bombings, etc. That because they aren’t smart or have the capabilities of Israel, that they can do as they please. OOOPS, people aren’t buying what they’ve been trying to sell.
“Majority of Americans support Israel during crisis, says poll
Posted: 02:05 PM ET
From CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser
An Israeli soldier sits on his armored personnel carrier Tuesday, after pulling out of Gaza.
WASHINGTON (CNN) — A new national poll suggests that six in ten Americans sympathize more with the Israelis than the Palestinians in the recent fighting in Gaza, and most believe that Israel’s initial decision to take military action against Hamas was justified.
Sixty percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corporation survey released Saturday say they sympathize with Israelis, with 17 percent backing the Palestinians.
The poll was conducted while Israel was still taking military action in Gaza, so it does not reflect how Americans feel about the recent cease-fire in Gaza. But 63 percent of those questioned do think that Israel’s initial military action was justified, with three in ten saying it was not justified.”
http://www.iht.com/articles/2003/10/31/poll_ed3_.php
.
http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbccntryview/backgrounder.html
.
http://www.palestinereport.ps/article.php?article=331
WASHINGTON – The American public supports Israel in its military incursion into Gaza, according to a recent poll conducted by Ipsos.
The poll results published Tuesday show that 44% of Americans blame Hamas for the current conflict while only 14% blame Israel. Nine percent said both sides were to blame, and 29% were undecided.
Also, 57% of Americans thought that Hamas had used “excessive” force, whereas 44% thought that Israel had used “appropriate” force.
Regarding a resolution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict, a surprising number of people were opposed to the two-state solution so often voiced by US leaders.
When asked whether the US should support the establishment of a Palestinian state, 45% answered negatively while just 31% answered positively, and 24% were undecided.
source:Ynet