What Could Possibly Be Wrong With These Earmarks?
By Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy on February 6, 2009 at 9:10 AM in Barack Obama, Bernie Madoff, Current Affairs, Democrats, Economic Stimulus, Economy, Homeland Security, Republicans, Tax stimulus package
We keep hearing about the almost $1 TRILLION dollar “stimulus” package put forth by Obama and the Democratic leadership. And we keep hearing that a number of Republicans are pretty upset about some of the “pork” put in there.
Well, the Republicans have put out a list of some of the more egregious (according to them) requests in this article, “GOP Leaders List Waste In Senate Stimulus Bill.” Let’s just take a little look-see to figure out what all the brouhaha is about, and bear in mind that the stimulus package is SUPPOSED to be about job creation:
• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient. (Wow - in IL? A $2 Billion earmark? Huh - maybe people really should have paid attention to Obama’s penchant for pork for IL.)
• A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film. (A TAX BREAK?? While our coffers are empty? For HOLLYWOOD to buy FILM? C’mon, already. I love movies as much as the next person, but you gotta be KIDDING me. A tax break. Please.)
• $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.
• $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).
• $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters. (Well, lookey here - it seems the GSA had already asked for this funding. In February of 2008. And here it is - again - in the “Stimulus package.)
• $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters. (New FURNITURE?? Like Bermie Madoff’s new furniture with all the artwork in his office? Hell to the no - everyone is having to tighten their belts. They can use the old desks and chairs, dammit.)
• $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees. (I’m okay with this - it will reduce gas costs, carbon emissions, and will help auto manufacturers - maybe they’ll be able to pay their own pension costs this year. Ahem.)• $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD’s. (Um, who thought this was an important component of a STIMULUS plan?? Sorry - couldn’t resist.)
• $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.
• $125 million for the Washington sewer system.
• $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities. (Listen, I love the Smithsonian - I have been a member for YEARS. But would this really help to CREATE that many new jobs, or is this just regular maintenance costs?
• $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.
• $75 million for “smoking cessation activities.” (Okay - clearly these folks are UNCLEAR on the concept of for what the economic stimulus package is.)
• $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges. (Ditto above. Not that it isn’t a good thing for there to be computer centers, but again - JOB CREATION is the point.)
• $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.
• $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction. (Important work, no doubt. But can we please keep our eye on the ball here?)
• $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.
• $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.
• $6 billion to turn federal buildings into “green” buildings.
• $500 million for state and local fire stations.
• $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.
• $1.2 billion for “youth activities,” including youth summer job programs. (”Youth activities”?? Like Obama’s Youth Camps that brought us the theft of caucuses through bullying, intimidation, and downright fraud? THOSE kinds of activities? Paid for by TAXPAYERS?? HELL NO!)
• $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.
• $412 million for CDC buildings and property.
• $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.
• $160 million for “paid volunteers” at the Corporation for National and Community Service. (Isn’t that an oxymoron - “paid volunteers”? And not for nothing, but their budget is already $888,462,000, no small potatoes.)
• $5.5 million for “energy efficiency initiatives” at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.
• $850 million for Amtrak. (Listen, I believe that “there is something about a train that’s magic,” as the Amtrak commercial says, but for the gazillionith time, WHAT is this doing in this package??)
• $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.
• $75 million to construct a “security training” facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.
• $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.
• $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations. (Again, this could end up saving money in the long run, and help the manufacturing sector.)
From the renovation piece on down, all of that sounds like items for which there is regular budgeting (or should be), so why the add-ons (for instance, the Smithsonian has a budget request for FY2009 in the amount of $716.4 million already)? Who is putting these things in there? Which states are going to reap most of the benefits? Some of these things are just ridiculous - I was fully prepared for Nancy Pelosi to put in there that all Californians should get annual passes to Disney Land or something, because there are certainly some Mickey Mouse additions in here (sorry - couldn’t resist that one, either).
Here’s the thing. These are difficult times, and many people have lost their livelihoods and their homes. For our leaders to put forth this pork-laden stimulus package on the heels of another huge stimulus package that had NO oversight whatsoever, is absurd. They tossed away over $350 BILLION dollars, and have NO idea what the hell happened to it. And now they want to give Hollywood a freakin’ tax-break for film? Or give a ton of money for STD treatment or stop-smoking campaigns (not that there is anything wrong with trying to get people to quit smoking, it just does NOT belong in this package).
Our leaders seem to have forgotten that this is OUR money they are throwing around, and that it will be our children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren who will be responsible for paying it back (see Bert, alert NQ reader, I was paying attention!). We deserve better than this. Future generations deserve better than this. Let’s get SERIOUS here. Stop with all of the pork. Increase oversight. Stop trying to spend OUR money so frivolously. And stop trying to convince us this is in our best interests. We all have to tighten our belts now. It is far past time for our leaders to act accordingly.
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Right in there, Reverend Amy!
And take a look at what economist, Paul Krugman said today:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/opinion/06krugman.html?_r=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
One economist, compared to two hundred highly respected economists in support.
http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2009/01/stimulus_letter.html
What should a stimulus bill do other than stimulate demand?
Plug in those names at open secrets and see who they contributed money to. I’ve done about 10 and I’ve yet to see a McCain contribution. Just saying.
He is an expert on the US economy while living abroad. Actually he seems to be an expert on all things American. Well you know except BEING an American.
Lotta opinions UK has, without even living here, or paying a dime of taxes, or understanding what’s going on.
All the while leaving the stench of kool-aid behind.
Not just ONE economist, UK, but over a HUNDRED economists have said this package is crap.
And Paul Krugman is not just ANY economist, either. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that a NOBEL PRIZE-winning economist who teaches at Princeton might just have a clue abt what he is saying.
What are YOUR qualifications in Economics?
Lets start with an Economics degree and a long time career within Economics. I have to have an interest in International and National Politics. How about you?
Krugman does not oppose this plan. Some PUMA groups seem to suggest he does, however that is not the case
Here is the direct link to his article.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/opinion/06krugman.html?_r=1
There are 200 Economists who have signed to support the Plan.
http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2009/01/stimulus_letter.html
uk, i don’t believe one word you say. have you written for the federal reserve? huh? i have! have you written for your local newspaper on business issues? i have. no i won’t give you the referrals. call me a liar. i don’t care. but we know you don’t anything you are talking about uk.
If you say so - but I’m guessing you don’t have a Nobel Peace prize, nor teach in an Ivy League (or, say, Oxford) university.
You keep mentioning the 200 economists who have signed on, and keep ignoring the several hundred who are opposed…I mean, I’m no mathematician, but I do know that 300+ is more than 200…
Who are the several hundred who are opposed?
(To be honest, I don’t hold most economists, whether they were to support or oppose this bill, in such high regard anyway, but I’ve seen this mentioned a couple times and so far I’ve missed any reference or link as to who they actually are.)
Whoops. Maybe I just saw answer down page…
Sonic Ninja Kitty | 2009-02-06 11:39:53
Oh yeah? We’ll I’m the fucking King of England and I can say with absolute authority that you’re full of crap.
Sorry, but the Obamatards deserve every bit of insult and disrespect just as much as the Bushbots did.
UK goes to left wing sites where he/she/it picks up a bit of this a tad of that and then rushes here like a dog with a bone thinking we’ll all marvel at how smart it is. NOT!
i would also add uk must be picking up govie monies from uk as it never works. tell uk when was the last time you looked for meaningful work. i mean beyond sitting in that internet cafe and drinking that one cup of cold coffee all day.
UKforDems, read it and weep:
This is an ad from the Cato Institute signed first by 206 economists, “including Nobel laureates and other prominent scholars”, and later signed by an additional 117–totaling 323. It can be found at http://www.cato.org/fiscalreality
I like Charles Krauthammer’s take on it in “The Fierce Urgency of Pork” (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/05/AR2009020502766_pf.html):
When you are in a hole, my friend, it is best to stop digging.
sonja, thanks for your work but you waste your time on one who doesn’t listen or much less care.
The CATO Institute, teh Economic think tank of the Neo Cons. The ones who caused this mess. Go there.
I do believe they back privatization of Social Security - “personal investment accounts.”.
“Free trade” is on their masthead as I recall.
now we know your in the tank … Everyone had a part in this … because of their greed for $ or power … Republicans saw big bucks in derivatives, Democrats had their chance to stop this mortgage crisis in 2002 when it was brought to Congress’s attention — guess what? they called it a “public lynching” of Harold Raines
If both sides of the aisle can’t take responsibility, DEMOCRATS included, then we’re just digging ourselves into a real deep hole!!!
The main part of the problem here is we no longer rely upon the GOLD STANDARD for the American $. Instead we rely upon the value of the $ for the standard. Hmmmm? what could possibly be wrong with that? Sounds alike the reasoning that housing values will never go down…
Like my momma always told me — Never say never!
Paul Krugman didn’t really say he doesn’t support it. he said the republicans are thwarting the stimulus, trying to pare it down to tax cuts because they don’t care that the tax cut strategy is what accounts for the recession. Krugman is saying right out that Repuplicans are risking the destruction of the nation to get tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy.
Anyone who hasn’t figured out by now that’s what the Republican Party is al about, just isn’t paying attention.
Party of the wealth, for the wealth, by the wealth, and wanna be millionaires who have nothing support this party.
“the tax cut strategy is what accounts for the recession”
Huh? You have to be a literal moron to believe this.
This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read from an economist. Period.
Is Acorn still in there? If so, I will lose it!
Yes. It’s disguised as “Community Reinvestment” money, supposedly supporting “community organizers.”
Same ole same ole.
We don’t need any community organizers! Why are the republicans not screaming about it!
As it is simply not true. One of the difficulties for House Republicans is that they only have the fire and brimstone liars and a few non nuts left, the rest lost. So the fire and brimstone types make up stories about “pinko liberal commies”. all the time.
Whereas all Democrats(sic) are the soul of honesty, is that it? PLEASE 500 million losing their jobs a month? She is an embarrassment. And when I see Barnyard Frank, I want to fling things at my television. The disgusting pig.
Each of UK’s three sentences above are themselves not true.
The House bill has an amazing $5B that ACORN is eligible to apply for. (They are not a gov’t agency, so they don’t just get an automatic check, but you can bet they’ll get a large chunk of the $5B) Even if what the senate passes is devoid of this kind of ‘pork’, we’ll have to see how the House bill is reconciled.
Incidentally, this $5B is not included in the “1% pork” numbers UK likes to toss around, but I think most people would define this as a sop to certain ‘constituents’, i.e. ‘pork’.
thank you Amy, I will make sure I reference this material so everyone I know can see what is in this huge oinker bill.
On Hannity last night he interviewed people on the street, asking them about random items in tbe bill, if they thought were in there or not. One that is that I didn’t even know about is food coloring taste research! Have you noticed that alot of this money is for federal shit? Green cars for govt. employees, HELL NO. If they really want to save money, tell everyone to ride the bus, tram, railway,bike walk. Didn’t they just get new cars. And why the hell do they all get cars anyway!!?? This money is going to benefit people who know someone in govt., the private sector won’t have a snowballs chance in hell of getting anywhere near any of the benefits of this, little as they are.
Don’t you know that Obama’s campaign sent emails to federal employees telling them that if they voted for him, then he’d increase the budgets of their agencies?
It happened in the guise of federal govt emps’ union communication. I found out from a family member who is in one of the biggest federal agencies there is, SSA, and read a short blip on the internet.
I couldn’t believe that there was such direct campaigning for a candidate on federal dollars and time.
That wasn’t “under the guise” of anything. It was a direct appeal to union members, through entirely proper, non-governmental channels, totally in accordance with the law.
As compared with non-public employees, the political activities of federal employees are significantly restricted under the provisions of the Hatch Act.
They can choose to belong to a union or not. Non-union federal employees are protected by law from any form of union political coersion.
they should sell all those cars..
congress take a pay cut.
If the bill before the congress does not stop the job loss and we have spend 700 billion on things that do not create jobs will we have the money for thing that might work?
we don’t have it now.
Nor will we.
Geithner is going to propose TARP 2 on Monday, setting up the “bad bank” concept to finally buy the toxic assets the banks are still holding.
Cost to the American taxpayer: 2-4 TRILLION dollars.
And there will be very little in it to help the little homeowners facing foreclosure.
Tell me again…..where did Obama get most of his big campaign contributions from?
So that litany amounts to 1% of the proposed bill. And ome of the objections are just completely whacko For example Does America need High Speed Trains - yes). Why are Rethugs against helping old people? They do realise that the Corporation for National and Community Service actually saves money, as it provides services such as elder care that the State would otherwise pick up?
No wonder the REthugs lost.
No, it’s really not about this or that.
It’s that Screecher Pelosi and P.BO ran their campaigns on “no pork” and “clean up the place” and “special interests will not run Washington anymore” and so on…
…and now they are pushing all their pork into one big huge bill, to cover it up with “recovery” gravy.
No, ye who won’t admit to your own “post-partisan depression”, it’s not about ‘hey, they are spending money’. It’s that they said they won’t do what they are now doing-include PORK into this bill.
Let these other things come up on their own and let them stand on their own merit. I, for one, for would love to see rail systems and the Arts get more funding. But I don’t want it wrapped up in a layer of Greedy Gravy.
“No Pork”, was the guy who lost. Hillary as Senator was exceptionally good at getting “pork” as all pork means is earmarked expenditure for State projects. The reality is that “pork” counts fovery very little of the Federal budget, but achieves a lot.
It is about this or that. This is a bill to replace the $1 trillion of demand that has been stripped from the economy as a result of the credit crunch. What else do you propose? If there is no spending, everyone will have a tax cut as no one will be working.
hey uk oops i mean fool, i have written for the federal reserve and i find you stupid, insulting and full of it. you aren’t an american. you know nothing of the real spirt, attitude or thoughts we have. so stuff it!
Barack Obama is not fit to wipe Hillary’s boots, and don’t forget it. If Hillary were President, Jon Stewart would not be able to say: You know who needs information about the economy? That’s what he’s saying about Obama. Obama doesn’t understand economics, even his chief cheerleader now understands that.
Because throwing money is the solution. Right.
Maybe if Barney had allowed Mr No Pork to regulate the mortgage issue, we wouldn’t have to spend a trillion dollars.
You want that money to put into our economy? Let the Democrats pony up the money from their own districts and give it to the rest of us.
Any time you want to start paying taxes to the USA you little tool, you feel free to send your money here. Until then, shut the f&ck up.
dude until housing is fixed nothing and i mean nothing else matters and all of this funding in this bill is just horse pucky.
True dat.
Passed at city, county and state level all around the nation. Blocked by Nancy Pelosi for over a year and a half:
http://alegrescorner.soapblox.net/showComment.do?commentId=18067
.
Search Foreclosures by State. Click on the state you’re interested in.
http://www.realtytrac.com/
.
don, that is short and sweet and totally accurate. obama is quite stupid in my view. he sure let nothing like legality stand in the way of this getting his home i note. i used to be on an historic commission like michelle was in my burg. i can tell you that the type of behavior they indulged in would not sit well.
So get rid of the 1%, argue the cases separately later, and pass the rest. How hard is that.
It does appear to be Dem pork no matter how you look at it, and pork directed to Washington. All across the country, Republican or Democrat or Independent, people are UNHAPPY with Washington.
How hard is getting rid of the 1%?
Oh, I know, because then the people who paid to get O in power won’t be paid back.
Change you can believe in, eh?
Everything changes, and nothing changes.
Pay to play. That’s why the Hollywood producers got huge tax breaks in this pork-stuffed bill.
Poor ole UK. He doesn’t KNOW how screwed he is.
$246 million to put Hollywood on the same Investment footing every other Industry gets is Pork?
Anyway Congress voted it out. Poor old Mary. Quite contrary.
UK, you don’t know shit about the pork bill. you pick up a few bits of this and that from left wing sites and the rush here to try and show us how smart only you think you are, loser.
Congress only voted it out when it got to the Senate, where discussion was allowed.
In Nancy Pelosi’s House of Representatives , there was no discussion allowed, and if the Repubs had not actually READ the damn bill, it would never have been removed.
Sweeteners. Pay backs.
It’s Obama’s “change we can believe in.”
Which parts of that list are just for Washington (which actually forgetting Congresscritters - is not a rich area)?
Even Rabble likes some of it;
The parts she does not like are strange
she does not want to help mothers get back to work as she objects to the funding of youth programmes, one of the first things to be cut by the State.
A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film is out; but what it really was, was an allowance for Film Companies to take accelerated depreciation on equipment costs in 2009.
The movie industry, already hampered by a credit crunch that makes it harder for filmmakers to raise capital, wanted parity with other industries. So it asked Congress to extend to the movies the “bonus depreciation” offered to other sectors of the economy, allowing businesses to write off 50% of their equipment costs for this year.
$850 million for Amtrak safety improvements and development of a high speed network is Pork in a stimulus bill? Since when?
$75 million for “smoking cessation activities. Again a programme cut by the States.
Why not read the bill to see what these actually are?
uk, shut up! and stop mocking a good woman. you are the sillest, most insulting, and vile poster here. put a sock it, loser.
Where is the insult Stodgie?
I liked the comment from Larry about some of you people, you are a “ground thumper”.
larry doesn’t insult us, you do. frankly you don’t shit about the united states. you hate americans, so get lost. you aren’t wanted. git!
To anyone including LARRY. The next muthafuckah who uses “ground thumper” in a deleterious manner is going to find me so far up their ass that there will be no end to it.
“Ground Thumpers” for you who don’t know, are Infantrymen. Soldiers who are at the sharp end. Not hiding behind some pussy desk in Langley Phucking Virginia.
They are MEN, not chumps who read about men and try to boss them around from a nice safe handlers desk, but real men. Ones who get shot and shoot.
They are the ones who fought every damned war to keep us safe. They are the infantry, Queen Of Battle and I will challenge ANYONE to denigrate the honor of being called one.
Only a moral coward would ever insult the ones who keep us safe.
This Infantryman apologizes for getting testy.
Its like the “N” word to black guys. THEY can say it.
We Ground Pounders are proud that we can hike in full gear over mountains and through swamps and then, when we get where we’re going, kick somebody’s ass and break all his toys.
Ground Pounders are the men who stand on the dirt, dig holes in it and Hold It. Planes don’t do it, ships don’t do it. Men with rifles do it.
There can be no greater honor than to share the title of Ground Pounder for there is no more honorable man than the one who puts his ass on the line for the right reason.
All else is talk.
Preach it, brother.
I haven’t read the original post, so I have no idea how the term was used, or the context, but the only meaning I know of for ‘ground pounder’ or any word like it, is ‘infantry’. Somehow, I think the UK dude saw it as vaguely derogatory, and has decided to throw it around as a general insult.
Thank you for your service.
I wrote this while still angry so use appropriate grains of salt, but using that phrase in a derogatory fashion is very insulting.
I HAVE read it, UK.
It’s an abomination.
Obama’s foolishness GAVE the Republican Party ammunition.
And THAT is unforgiveable.
Do not put words in my mouth, UK.
This is a STIMULUS bill for the economy. I said quite clearly that a number of these items should be in the regular appropriations bill. Try to read to the end before commenting.
Oops - I meant to say, please. Sorry. I was hurrying…
Good suggestion for him!
What UK is unwilling to admit, while telling people to actually read the bill, is that most of the Dems in Pelosi’s House hadn’t even read the bill themselves, and neither had Barak Obama.
Pelosi’s comment was “I don’t care what’s in it. I just want a unanimous Yes.”
If it hadn’t been for the Blue Dogs and the Repubs—-who actually DID read the bill, but were excluded from any input by Pelosi—-all these bullshit pork projects would have been passed, and the public would never have known.
There’s nothing new about Barak Obama.
What happened to the LINE ITEM VETO he promised in the primaries?
Pants on fire.
I have read the whole post RRA. Tightening belts is most definitely not what is needed to get through this recession. The World economy is looking at the brink of deflation, not an inflationary recession. In terms of the collapse of the banking industry, there has never been an equivalent precedent as Global banking simply has never existed.
The main bulk of this money goes to targeted tax cuts for employers, lower and middle earners and a one off extension of Government spending to get the economy kickstarted. The House Bill, which I have read, and I have linked to on here a few times is balanced.
Other than programmes what is a Government going to spend money on? How do you save jobs held by State employees other than by supplementing the programmes that they are scrapping - resulting in more jobs lost?
With effective interest rates at zero % there is no monetary policy left and tax cuts on their own have not worked.
there is a big difference in purchasing a house and purchasing a car. If this bill was really for what they said it was and not to give money to the people who let them cheat his way into office, then maybe I would even support it, but when you know something about obama and his history, you don’t trust him at all. This is a man who gave his friend 14 million dollars in Illnois tax payers money to build public housin and then set back and said nothing when this same individual let them freeze. But he would take campaign contributions from him and go into a land deal with them. And obama’s onlu significant acomplishment the entire time he was in the national senate was getting michelle’s hospital money, and geting his wife a raise. So I don’t trust him, his economist, him, the media, or his biggest fans.
The best investment of a million dollars has not been in any business, stock, or commodity, but in past political donations.
– Jim Sinclair
UK, quit lying your ass off.
It’s getting tiring listening to your lie about pork in the bill only being “1%”. Patently not true, and you know it, but you keep repeating the lie.
Furthermore, besides the outright pork, an enormous chunk of this bill is nothing but spending on govt. agencies that ought to go through normal channels, not be lumped in with a so-called ’stimulus’ package.
This bill is the equivalent of a family with two wage-earners, and when one of the two is laid-off, they decide to go out and buy two new cars, a new house twice the size as their current one, all new furniture, appliances, toys for the kids, home theater equipment, new landscaping for their home, and some big gifts for all their friends, ALL IN THE HOPE THAT ALL THIS SPENDING WILL GENERATE A NEW JOB FOR THE SPOUSE. Even if it works, the kids grandchildren will be left with the task of paying off their great-grandparent’s idiocy.
We could spend $300 Million a month on ‘bridge to nowhere’ pork projects, starting the day Columbus first got to America until February 2009, and we would have barely spent what we will spend on TARP and this so-called ’stimulus’ bill.
That’s just insane.
The $900 billion proposed to be spent on saving people from losing their jobs and the US economy is still less than the Middle East folly of the Republican era.
Of all the “pork projects” and the Republicans listed them, many have now been removed, but we shall include everything that they objected to; the total amount objected to was 1.44%.
Amy has listed them. Add them up.
If you are going to spend money on Government spending, then you will of course have Government programmes.
$1 trillion is not going to be awarded to Haliburton on a no bid contract for no work.
Oh, I see. Your definition of ‘pork’ has always just happened to conincide with the items that add up to the largest number you can round down to 1%.
Of course, if you consider that Pelosi and gang have rewarded the groups they consider to be their TRUE constituencies, the various unions, ACORN, gov’t employees, etc. at the expense of the next three generations of American taxpayers, then maybe my list of Pork is somewhat different than yours.
And nothing has been ‘cut’ yet. We have to see what the Senate passes out, and then that has to get reconciled with the House version. THEN we see what’s really in the final bill.
Again, you totally ignore the point that has been made repeatedly that appropriations for gov’t agencies are supposed to go through a budget process that is quite a bit more stringent than just handing out blank checks, and that spending money on gov’t ISN’T actually, by definition, economic stimulus. Buying new furniture, computers, etc. only makes us poorer by the 100s of millions spent, and increases GDP by naught when the stuff is made in China. Handing out blank checks to govt entities is just begging for it to be misspent and wasted. Rewarding states which overspent or have become bloated with a bailout at the expense of the states that were frugal is just plain wrong.
Amy,
Why don’t you stop and take a minute and do some of your own thinking before you just spout off on your Republican talking points.
Your list of Republican complaints tells a very important story. First, it is very disputable whether all the Republican items you mention are really not bad things to be spending on. Some of it is very good investment and will help to create jobs and kick-start the economy.
Second, why don’t you do a simple exercise and add up the cost of all of those programs that you and your Republicans are complaining about. I will do it for you. The total cost is $17.29 billion. A very small number compared to the overall size of the stimulus plan. About 2% of the overall plan to be precise. So you are going to freak-out and take down the entire stimulus plan and put all those people that would have jobs in this plan out of work and stop all that investment in areas that this country needs investment. For what for your hatred of Obama and petty poltics? Complaining about 2% also tells us that the Republicans are all about politics and hoping Obama fails. As usual the Republicans putting party ahead of country.
Why don’t you actually take a minute and find out exactly what is in the plan. Here I will help you.
Its about an $800 bn plan. The bulk of the package or about $550 bn will be used to build new schools and highways, invest in energy and health-care projects and provide unemployment and health benefits for out-of-work Americans. There are about another $300 billion of tax cuts, representing about 40% of the overall total.
Here is the link to the complete break down of the stimulus package (although is changing). Take a look and educate yourself. Where exactly is all this great amount of pork?
http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/PressSummary01-15-09.pdf
Do you consider tax cuts pork? Do you consider spending on healthcare, schools, roads, bridges, etc. etc. etc. pork?
So what is your solution? To do nothing. Let unemployment go to 10-12% and company bankrupcies to sky-rocket or to kick-start the economy to at least get things rolling in the right direction again?
I wonder how much it would cost for the government to pay everyone’s mortgage or rent for 12 months.
Now that would stimulate the economy.
That may have been a better solution than TARP, which I did not agree with. I did however understand that the consequences of allowing banks to collapse would have been massive.
UK, the original TARP cost $700 billion, but in order to get it passed, the Democratically-led Congress added $150 billion in “sweeteners,” (Barney Frank’s word), making the REAL cost $850 billion.
Do you have ANY idea what the $150 billion in sweeteners was spent on?
Find out, and get back to us, okay?
This from thhe Quakers may help
http://www.fcnl.org/issues/item.php?item_id=3430&issue_id=18
NB much of it went on income tax changes.
I take it you didn’t MIND that the Pelosi Democratic House added $150 billion more in what they called “sweeteners.”
Reminds me of Blago.
Gimme mine, or I won’t support you.
Change? Not really, dear.
he isn’t an american Mary and frankly despises us.
Do you know if Mary is American? How do you know if I am or not? You just have a stupid stupid little mind so twisted in hate that you have nothing positive to say of anything.
By the way I do love America and I especially love the fact that 69.5 million voted for Barrack Obama. I bet you hid under the couch on election night.
Do you hate America? Why do you want our President to fail?
i know what you are little fellah. frankly, you would never win a debate. all you try and do is deflect and not very well i might add, loser.
“Why do you want our President to fail?”
On second thought, he writes like a 12-year-old, Stodgie.
Pathetic, isn’t he?
geez Mary, you called it and very well i might add. sounds like jr might be skipping school. in the uk they leave school quite early. uk either can’t or won’t look for a job. i bet mum is so proud.
Stodgie,
I called him a zit faced kid last week and he shut up for almost a whole day. What it seems be is a case of a very lonely, under-stimulated adolescent who is shunned by his peers and hopes to find some internal validation in being an anonymous pain in the ass here.
“Your lines are pretty sad she said
You are a lonely, weak, pathetic man
If this is doing the best you can”
Lyle Lovett
I don’t think anyone would come to a place like this, where people generally get along and are respectful, unless he/she was a troll trying to stir the pot and call the posters here names, like bigots and racists, all day long. I am glad the NQ administrators are handling this so we can talk about more important things together.
Because you call yourself UKforDems. If you were American and loved America so much, you’d not put UK in there. Unless your name is Ulysses Kane or something.
Guess what UK? 217.8 million people in the US are over 18, so that means that about 148.5 million people did NOT vote for him. Including the 59 million that voted for McCain.
There were 62 million in 04 that voted for Bush.
Who cares?
no wonder he loves the One
No I did not. The $150 million represented, additional spending to keep people in their homes, targeted reductions to emergency income tax and an increase in the level of deposit insurance.
If you are going to give the banks $700 billion you can give the home owner something back as well.
I can see why a Rethug would object - helping the lower and middle classes and not just the Corporations.
look fool, get out of our business. your sorry backside isn’t needed or wanted. go home and harress mum.
Well, except that it didn’t do anything for the little homeowners, UK.
Nice try, though.
$150 billion towards the real victims of the credit crunch, was never going to do much. I agree with that. It was sticking plaster for a complete collapse in banking and all the $700 million will do is capitalise current debts; not future ones. This is why credit is still tight.
uk, you don’t know shit about finance. your opinions mean nothing here. we know you are a fool.
he’s just dizzy from all the spinning.
I know a shit troll when I see one, and that is you. [ADMIN: SUCH LANGUAGE IS NOT PERMITTED ON THIS BLOG, and you've been placed on moderation until such remarks cease.] You have suddenly decided that you are going to be the admin of this board and decide who can and can not post.You promote the most vile of attitudes to whomsoever takes an opposing view to your own and defend a rather vile comment from Tek.You have no understanding that the state of the US economy has considerable consequences for the whole world. You are simply a disgrace and a diversion. [ADMIN: That's quite a claim, for which you provide ZERO PROOF. Please quit commenting about the other readers, and defend your own arguments rationally.]
I do too, and
the shit trolls[LET'S AVOID THAT TERM ENTIRELY or all who use it will be on moderation, which we'd rather not do] come on here calling us all Republicans and tell us we hate Americans and America. I’ve seen you call many people names and throw accusations at you who do not agree with you.And you have no understanding that we may begin to take you seriously when the UK gets rid of the Queen!
at those who do not agree with you
I was referring to Stodgie, I apologise if you thought that comt was aimed at you idiocracy.
uk, you are so pathetic. you don’t have a clue. sad really! can’t you find something to do beside troll for obama? huh? and when you post bull expect to taken to task. you aren’t very bright. this isn’t your country and we don’t appreciate your comments and thoughts. go back to your country and help there.
Larry Johnson described someone who often posts here quite well, it certainly applies to you Stodgie.
You are the very definition of troll, my first response was perfectly reasonable response to Amy, which you said was rude and have not explained why. You then proceeded to bigot all round the topic in the most stupid and diversionary of manners. You are so utterly contemptibly stupid that you attacked me for questioning a poster that said this, “Why should people work hard so their money can be handed over to ministers and blacks”.
That indeed says a lot of you. You have no idea where I was born. Who I date or to what Country I or they pay taxes to. Nor do you have any idea about why I would have an interest in American Politics.
You are spamming the board with your hate. The fact that I support Obama does not give you the right to spam me or this topic with your stupidity.
You could take a second and tells us where you hold citizenship right now, but instead you keep spamming the lie on “1% pork”.
You remind me of the waitress in the Monty Python SPAM skit:
“Well, pork, pork, eggs, and pork doesn’t have much pork in it.”
“PORK, PORK, PORK!, Glorious PORK!”
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/02/gop.stimulus.worries/in...
The link above characterizes the waste the GOP says is in the bill.
This amounts to about $13B in “pork” as defined by dirty Rethugs. So 13/900 * 100 = 1.44%
Math may not be especially easy for Rethugs.
uk, i said you don’t know shit. those weren’t my comments to which you referred. i have used rather aggressive language with you. you don’t represent the best interests of the american people. you misquote, abuse information, and are generally ureliable. you take info from left wing sites and think we should drink in all your dubious information and data. take a hike!
you are the worst type of troll. you hate america and all it represents. we respond in kind to you. larry is a patriotic american also so don’t try and use his comments out of context which is so typical of you.
What? You mean Obama isn’t going to pay my rent & car?
This is very disappointing but for many of us here it is not a surprise. His wife went around on the campaign trail saying that it is not rocket science, it is not as though we don’t know what to do, the right thing to do but we lack the will to do it. He said it too and now it was all a roadshow and the bots bought it lock, stock and barrel.
The way they were talking about in the campaign, the ideal would have been for 0bama to do this stimulus plan scientifically — like a portfolio optimization, where do we get the best bang for our money now? But we see that there was no intent on his part to get his hands dirty. I even doubt his intellectual ability to get his hands dirty. He is a lazy bum! (who gives/shouts speeches (written by his 20 and odd year old speechwriter) off his teleprompter — he gave one last night).
Anyone who supports this either has no economic sense or they have no common sense. Both make it impossible to look at this porker with logic.
Here’s the bottom line: Obama’s only “leadership” was to tell the Dem leadership a number: We need a stimulus around $800 billion, he said.
Then he left it up to Pelosi to decide what went in it, and she sent out the word to her members (excluding any Blue Dog Dems or any Republicans) to submit their “want” lists to fill up the bill to the $800 billion. She BLOCKED any amendments or discussion from her fellow Dems (moderates and conservatives) and from any Republicans, telling her members “I don’t care what’s in it…..I just want a unanimous Yes.”
The Blue Dogs and moderates revolted, resulting in 11 Dems and all Repubs voting against her atrocious bill, not because they didn’t want a stimulus, but because Pelosi blocked them from any input.
But in terms of Obama having any clue what was actually IN the bill?
Never happened. He left that up to Pelosi and Reid.
Stupid, stupid man.
Favorite headlines this morning: Obama says We came here to make change. Well, his idea of change seems to be change the groups of undeserving people he’s going to hand our tax dollars to. Really, there needs to be a movement in this country to do away with income tax. Why should people work hard so their money can be handed over to ministers and blacks in whatever neighborhood Obama decides to give it to. That whole program has always been a way to buy votes and now the Democrats are expanding it.
I don’t even bother writing to Durbin anymore, he’s so mired down in the corruption of Obama.
the other gem is that bush gave the banks more than they needed. duh.
I bet you claim not to be racist either.
[ADMINISTRATOR: THIS IS A WHOLLY SCURRILOUS CHARGE TO MAKE AGAINST TEK. She is speaking about the black ministers who delivered votes to Obama by the busloads, and who he is rewarding with rich "faith-based" funding. STOP LOOKING FOR RACISM EVERYWHERE because you find it where none is to be seen. You seem obsessed with racism. Perhaps you need to have a heart-to-heart with yourself about this obsession.]
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=offl&hs=mS8&q=%22Comment+by+tek%22++%22blacks+%22+site%3Anoquarterusa.net&btnG=Search
say uk, i bet you thought THE JERK was a movie out about you life. go away, you aren’t wanted.
Here’s what I think , stodgie: UK is from Ireland, where the economy has crashed. His part-time job now is the Obama program for posting in support, for an hourly fee, as in Axelrod astroturfing.
Sure wish they had better informed posters who don’t hide behind the race card as a last resort.
Far as I’m concerned, UK’s last post just discredited him completely.
Not even worth responding to, anymore.
that sounds about right plus i note he does despise americans. that’s not helpful even to obama.
stodgie, the hate of Americans is what he shares with Obama. I think we should just ignore him. How many times a day can this loser call people names and insult them?
AlexisM, you called Larry Johnson “Anti American” today.
UK…trying to stir the pot some more? Yes, please point out where I directed a post to Larry Johnson and specifically said to him that he is “Anti-American.” I don’t know him and have never said word one to him. Why do you lie and start nonsense? No wonder no one here can tolerate you.
In response to Soldier4Hillary being called a ground thumper, you wrote:-
Comment by AlexisM | 2009-02-05 23:43:39
Good one Soldier. It’s hard to figure out how deep the self loathing goes of all these people who trash America and set the terrorists free with an apology that we ever held them accountable. I have no idea what that is about but I want it to end. It’s a disgrace. The poor people who fight for our country getting attacked for doing it while murderers get a pat on the back, free ride, and free lunch. Self loathing is a euphemism for the people who have these sick thoughts.
UK…I so wish you would go where your hate is appreciated, but like I asked you…where exactly is Larry Johnson’s name in that post? It’s an observation and opinion that I am entitled to.
PS. I notice you are (finally) on moderate. Maybe you could spend your time here being more positive and less hateful, angry and insulting to the posters here. It doesn’t seem to be doing you any good to repeatedly focus on the hate. I’m just sayin’.
UK: you don’t know what racist is anymore than Obama. Obama is the racist. He thinks whites should give up everything for blacks. You don’t live in this country. The blacks have been getting millions of dollars from the government for 60 years and jobs and education opportunities that whites don’t have. They’ve used the money to form gangs and buy cocaine.
Obama is racist against whites. Racism can cut more than one way.
Tek, that was an extremely unfair remark to make to you, and I said so above. If this happens to you again, by anyone, be sure to e-mail me at susanunpc at gmail dot com. We believe in free speech here, and refuse to ban people just because they’re in the tank for Obama, but we do NOT have to put up with outrageous and damaging charges that are simply untrue.
Please accept my apologies to you for having to endure this experience at our blog. And be sure to let us know if it happens again.
And you accuse others of being ‘trolls’?
Many of these projects (not all) deserve funding. But they have NOTHING to do with “stimulating” the economy or even creating more than a handful of jobs!
Most of this should be in the regular budget. If you read the latest government report on new unemployed claims it has now climbed to over 630,000 when 400,000 new claims is considered alarming - all while Soertoro/Obama followed Bush’s example and gave photo ops and one Saudi media interview. We’ve got the same kind of “government” we had for 8 Bushyears and the only thing that has really changed is the decor in the Oval Office; but then we never knew the ideology of the guy now occupying it anyway so I doubt that really matters as this political wheel continues to roll ever closer to the economic abyss.
This is great news! We only had like 580,000 people appply for unemployment in January, when just recently it was 500 million per month!
Well said RRRA
As per housing. The Dems just defeated a proposal from the Rebubs to lower the mortgage interest rate to 4% or 4.5%. Chuck Schumer said it would give the banks “a windfall of refinancing fees”. Can you imagine how a low mortgage rate would help those in trouble now with their 8%+ mortgages or new homebuyers would? And if banks made money they would lend money. This whole thing makes me ill. The stimulus is geared to help social, gov’t. programs not anyone who works for a living. God help us.
Chuck Schumer is OWNED by the New York financial community, who don’t want lower interest rates for their mortgage payers (less profit for them).
He does, however, support Obama’s “bad bank” idea, which means the taxpayer will buy the banks’ toxic assets for around $2-4 trillion dollars, leaving the very banks who bought into those toxic assets for huge fees , scot free, and the taxpayers picking up the tab.
Schumer knows what side his bread is buttered on.
NEVER listen to anything he says without understanding who benefits from what he’s supporting.
The 4% interest rate is still a good idea and would stimulate the mortgage market which is badly needed. If he is owned as you say, why in the world would he promote this?
Schumer doesn’t support the 4% rate.
That was a Republican idea, which he condemned.
It IS a good idea.
So is the Republican idea of giving homebuyers a tax credit of 10% of the value of the home they buy and take off the market.
But the Pelosi/Reid/Obama people say tax cuts/credits are old, failed policies.
Schumer’s against it, on behalf of his banker campaign donations.
The time is ripe for Keynesians/big government-types to assert themselves — that’s why they backed the POTUS in the first place and are trying to seize the opportunity now. But there’s a huge problem — the national debt is already high. More government spending of borrowed funds will further crowd out the private sector from access to credit.
Get the picture? This is a Marxist dream come true.
I wish the “stimulus” plan would be totally scrapped. Not just the spending but the tax cuts as well. Simply put, these tax and spending issues aren’t emergent right now. Instead, this administration and Congress should be focusing on effectively solving the banking crisis which is the root of the current economic problem. Access to credit will stimulate spending, but it’s dried up right now and needs a fix. And once it’s fixed, government shouldn’t hog it all.
I’m a centrist and I just don’t look to Keynes for the answer. The world is much different than in his heyday but far-left liberals bitterly cling to his dogma. Please, get over it before more harm is done.
Even Krugman says this Obama bill is atrocious, but seems to think it has to be passed anyway.
Frankly, I’m deeply grateful for the true bipartisan team of 20 in the Senate working together to clear out the “sweeteners” provided by Pelosi & Reid, and to force Obama to pay attention.
And I’m a lifetime Democrat.
Bush’s adminstration oversaw huge increases in government spending — and that didn’t solve the problem we’re faced with now. But that lesson seems to be lost on the current administration.
Same old same old. Just lipstick on a pig.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Except THIS boss doesn’t even know what’s in the bill that has his name on it.
Sheesh
Again, instead of looking at right wing sites all the time have a look at what Krugman actually wrote. His reason for being critical of this bill is that it does not go far enough.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/opinion/06krugman.html?_r=1
like i said, Mary, uk visits left wing sites and then brings his bones back hoping we’ll clap for him.
Mary misquoted Krugman, I pointed out he actually supports the bill and believes it is not enough.
You then highlight your stupidity by railing on Krugman as some left winger. I believe you are just displaying signs of irrational hate.
uk, you know a lot about irrational hate and nothing else. hurts to be a loser, huh!
stodgie…spot on. I rarely see that much hate on blogs. Very disturbing IMO.
How does recognizing Krugman as a left-winger highlight one’s stupidity. He IS a left-winger.
I believe you are simply irrational. And your own irrational hate is on display everytime you call people “ReThugs” and such.
I just wish he’d go on the newspaper.
O.T.:
On AOL economic news this morning, there was an article, “Obama Names Economic Advisers”. It named the members of the “Economic Advisory Board” (created by Executive Order, just this morning) with Penny Pritzker being one, and Paul Volcker (Federal Reserve Chairman) being head of this commitee, the purpose of which is to “boost the U.S. economy.”
Now, the article is still there, but the members (except Volcker) are no longer listed.
Penny Pritzker is a Red Flag for me. Has anyone heard anything about this?
Not O/T, if you think abt it, Murray.
And yes, I have seen reports that Pritzker is one of Obama’s economic advisers. Talk abt pay to play - she bankrolled him a good bit.
If people are unfamiliar with her, do a little search (try goodearchdotcom, then you don’t have to use Google). You will be amazed - oh, wait - maybe not. You will see it is more of the same with Obama and the people with whom he surrounds himself.
thanks Rev Amy!!!
hey did everyone hear IMMELT and PRITZKER named to economic recovery advisory panel by Obama????
story here:
http://moderateinthemiddle.wordpress.com/
BWAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you, Gina!
Just to put this discussion into a bit wider perspective:
http://jsmineset.com/index.php/2009/02/05/hourly-action-in-gold-from-trader-dan-61
.
A new President with high approval ratings and his party with a big majority in both houses of Congress have a short window of opportunity here to grab the bull by the horns and take real action to turn this around. THROW PELOSI OUT (Barney Frank and Chris Dodd stand out as scumbags as well.) The Dems got Congress in 2006 because people, even those who normally vote Republican, wanted a change from the Cheney-Bush corruption and incompetence. We now have a Congress with a terribly low approval rating by the American people. Oust her as Newt Gingrich was ousted and Tom DeLay was ousted.
The willful sabotage of Congress’s ability to act in this time of crisis is plenty of reason to force Pelosi and her accomplices out of our nation’s capitol, and this sabotage will naturally come to the surface as a result of an honest investigation into what brought us to this point of economic collapse. Who are these people working for? They certainly are not working for the American people or the General Welfare.
neither is barrack obama!
The thing is, the INSTITUTION of the Presidency is more than the person behind the desk (teleprompter). There are a lot of people like former Presidents, and honest, capable career public servants (think Joe Wilson, Valerie Plame) who have influence.
Therein lies my hope. I am certainly not infatuated with Obama.
I say it all the time…Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Dodd, and all the other criminal and scumbags are worse than even Obama himself. I hope they get rid of these people soon, otherwise I predict the Dim Party will go the way of the dinosaurs soon.
I think that’s an important point. With Obama, maybe there is a chance (if the right people hold his hand, get his ear, guide him, etc.) Others are too far gone. Sure are a lot of weird things in Obama’s past, though. I can’t imagine that Bill and Hillary, with all of their experience and connections, don’t have more insight into that question than we do.
Reid is a mystery to me. A few years back I thought he was a fighter (pardon the pun). Then, in my perception, he seemed to go flat and play dead. Just when, I dunno. Of course, I have absolutely no supporting evidence, but I’m inclined to suspect extortion. I’d be interested to hear (or get links) on my quandary re Reid.
it can’t happen soon enough for me. i am sorry to see the party of fdr in this state.
Re my “Throw Pelosi out” comment.
I just saw something counter to it that gives me pause.
Stop Trashing Pelosi, Unless You Want SocSec GUTTED
http://alegrescorner.soapblox.net/showDiary.do?diaryId=2231
Well worth considering.
I certainly don’t want Social Security trashed.
I’m going to give this subject some thought.
pritzker and immelt named to econ recov panel by Obama….
BWAAAHAAAAA!!!!!
Story at my linky in my name…
i predict in six months obama’s poll numbers well hover around 50% or be lower than that. congress will be on their way to losing the house and maybe their majority in the senate in 2010.
they had a chance and we now have the tell.
YEP. And they literally GAVE this one to the Repubs, by being lazy and arrogant.
Hillary Clinton would have known better.
the repubs didn’t even have to punt to win the game. and make no mistake the dims have insured the repubs will have power for a generation. i don’t applaud either side here but note the spectacular screwup the dims are working on right now.
I think the GOP knew this was going to happen. That the Dims would screw up so badly there wouldn’t be another Dim in the White House for 50 years, starting in 2012. I think people counted the GOP out too soon. They’re not stupid. They’re calmly letting Obama and Pelosi show what morons and America haters they are. Then they take the country back, hopefully. I won’t vote for another Dim until these people are all weeded out of the party. They make me sick and embarrassed for America. Big time.
very astute comment alexis and right on the money. rove may not be a nice man but he is smart. i have watched him on fox. yup, hell will freeze over before i vote for a dim.
I didn’t change my party affiliation yet. I just love getting all the mail and email asking for money…then writing “hell no, not until you clean up your act” on the document and mailing it back, etc. Eventually I will switch to either Indie or GOP I think, but it is rather fun to respond to this stuff. The only ones I don’t have a snark response to are the ones from HRC.
• $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen !???
Is the Chinese governeement still a partner in this venture?
This one is worth following up on as it is directly connected to BO.
$125 million for the Washington sewer system…
HUH? What’s wrong with Congress?
is that a serious question?
wodiej, no it is snark. Just comparing Capital Hill to a sewer system…
TGIF
Nothing like a good wanker spanking. Bend UK over your knee and give ‘em some tender loving discipline.
Good Job Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy.
The best thing people here could do is to just not answer the outrageous nonsense posts by UKforDims. I don’t know why anyone bothers with that particular annoying troll anyway.
From reading this thread, it seems that UKforDems post facts and states his/her opinion. Then the ‘locals’ call UK a bunch of names, not at all countering the facts and opinion.
It seems UKforDems is trying to have a debate but no one here can rise to the challenge.
Seriously, I’m trying to figure out what’s best. It all comes down to figuring out whether spending on infrastructure is better than tax breaks. I’ve seen data from both sides that ‘many’ (usually 200 for some reason) economists say one is better than the other. Both can’t be right, can they?
What I’m missing is how tax breaks can stimulate the economy. If I were to get a tax break, I wouldn’t spend it since I’m worried about losing my job. Some people may though. But with spending on infrastructure, we know all the money will be spent; and after spending it we will have invested in something (bridges, roads, …).
So, Steve, you think that it’s okay for UK to call everyone here “racists” because they don’t support Obama? That’s really not conducive to intelligent discourse, which is why no one takes him seriously or answers his rants.
You call people in the Democrat party ‘Dims’…
So by your logic, no one should take you seriously.
And anyone who doesn’t agree with Obama is called a “Rethug” or “Repug.” That’s not the point. UK’s insults get way too personal and inappropriate.
Steve
Quite often you can have a reasonable debate here, especially if the issue is complicated as some of the real trolls disappear.
The Bill is a combination of increased Government spending, on projects, some essential, some less so, some to supplement State Spending that is being hit by loss of sales and property taxes. The money to supplement State programmes, immediately saves jobs as those jobs would be redundant by the end of the financial year. They could have faced losing their home.
With regard to the taxes, all of the tax cuts target the lower and middle class as they have a higher propensity to spend; ie they are more likely to spend then pay off debt / save.
What worries Republicans with this bill is not the size, but what if it works. If it works they are out for a very long time.
UK, that’s ridiculous. Your partisan comments are so naive and immature. Republicans don’t want this country going down the toilet. They smell Pelosi Pork, and a spendthrift welfare bill that has nothing to do with “stimulating” the economy. Yet again, another post that doesn’t really make sense, or ring true, from you.
Perceptive comment, UK.
Especially (for me)
Is it too much to ask of the Congresscritters that they be loyal their country first, not their party first?
If they serve their constituents well, don’t they have a good chance to be reelected?
The oath of office means nothing?
I don’t know very many “constituents” supporting this bill (support is like 38%). If the dems were so damn sure this was going to be the magic bullet - they would want ALL the credit.
Tax cuts work because when you pay less to the government leaving more for discretionary spending. Interest rates on mortgages work because average Americans will save on the monthly mortgage +/- $450.00 a month. That is a car payment. SO maybe then they decide their family budget can supprt the purchase of a new car, or putting a pool in or taking a vacation. Those who buy a house getting $15,000 back might save it OR they may by furnishings new appliances etc for the new home.
I think infrastucture funding is valuable but let me just ask you all here….Who do see see workking on the roads, bridges, etc when you drive by? Are they Americans or are they illegal aliens? Where I am the majority of the workers are not Americans. How is that going to help when 1) the illegals flood the borders again because of all the construction work and 2) send half their earning back to Mexico to support their families?
Anyone can respond except for UK - really don’t you have something else to do? Your drivel is becoming tiresome and boring already.
athena…you are right. I just had this argument with a libbie pal of mine who has never read any of the Pork Bill but thinks we should pass it “because Obama says so” and that tax cuts caused the problem we are in because the dirty Republicans just want to protect the rich. Boy does that get old. And, thanks for the UK comment. You are right on that one too.
Gary, there is arguably not a true statement in UK’s entire post. There’s certainly nothing perceptive about it. What the above post does do is prove that UK is an economic ignoramus of monumental proportions.
He is also extremely disingenuous. Despite his nick, he refuses to acknowledge that he isn’t even an American citizen, despite the fact that his UK-ness oozes out of every post.
‘programmes’? ‘redundant’? (Isn’t it just the smart thing to do to eliminate redundant jobs?)
UK,
I’m glad you have another favorite besides me!
I do believe that the stimulus package will have the psychological effect to start momentum in the economy.
That means the markets will be way up next week and confidence will be restored for the short term.
Yesterday I mentioned that I had the biggest day in the history of my company.
I got that wrong…today is the biggest sales day in company history..Yahoooo!!!
However,
Even though you have made constructive arguments for this stimulus ,I remain skeptical as it doesn’t go nearly far enough to help business.
Republcans are not your enemy. I have voted for both parties over the years. We are all Americans and only want what’s best at this momentous time.
Some 60% of the money while being spent on Government Projects, will be provided through Government money. Even Amtrak. The High Speed Rail links are Public / Private Partnerships.
How’s that help me?
Apart from the cement industry most of my customers have limited contracts with the government. What are we going to do about saving private enterprise.
I notice you’re on moderation so I won’t hold my breath waiting for a response.
According to UK gradeschool-level economic education, we can all just run around breaking windows, ask the gov’t to fix them all, and viola, instant economic stimulus! But why limit ourselves to merely destroying windows. Let’s tear down every bridge in America, and then rebuild them all! It will be the biggest economic boom in history! Why didn’t we think of this before? Oh yeah, WE DID! It was called the WPA, and all the gov’t buildings and ‘infrastructure’ we built didn’t bring us out of the Great Depression. Arguably, it’s one of the things that kept us in a depression for a decade.
OR by UK’s other piece of brilliant reasoning, we can just have the DMV in each state hire everyone that is unemployed, and then have the Federal gov’t bail out all the state DMV agencies. PROBLEM SOLVED. No more unemployement. End of the recession, right?
steve clearly you are missing the numerous nasty posts by uk calling americans a number of vile names. go do your homework.
Well, first off, besides the fact that UKdim’s ‘facts’ are nothing of the sort, a tax break means a certain amount of people who would have lost their homes are instead able to make the payment. It also means a certain number of businesses that would have gone out of business or would have had to layoff people, will instead keep their employees employed, further reducing the number of homes that get foreclosed. There’s always someone on the margin where a little more money means the difference between success and failure. That’s at a minimum.
Not an insult: you demonstrate a fundamental ignorance of capitalism. Building a bridge may pay the wage of some construction workers and a civil engineer for a matter of months, but then what? Does the bridge magically generate jobs? Does it somehow stimulate industry and commerce by its very existence? Does America have a bridge-deficit problem that no one has detected before? You have to ask yourself, ‘what else could have been done with that money if it had been left in the hands of those who originally earned it?’
Best case with a bridge, it likely only facilitates a slightly cheaper transport of goods or people than was the case before. Best case, this benefit will provide full return on investment of $100 to $400 million in a decade or three. This is not a stimulus most people imagine when they hear Pelosi talk about ‘500 milion’ jobs lost a month. Of course, worst case, it’s a literal bridge to nowhere. Then it’s just a waste. If you’re going to ‘invest’ in something, a bridge, even BEST case, is about the worst investment you can make. If they were a ‘good’ investment, people like Warren Buffet would be building bridges like crazy. And even a ‘good investment’ doesn’t necessarly equate to economic stimulus.
Another way to think about this: the gov’t comes to you and says, “We’re taking your first four paychecks this year to pay for building a bridge (that you don’t need). That’s four paychecks you could have spent on groceries, goods, or services provided by local people. You know you would have been better off spending the money on yourself with the locals than sinking it into a bridge that no one needs. Furthermore, even if you just put the money in a savings account at the bank, IT STILL DOES MORE GOOD THAN WASTING IT ON A BRIDGE! It increases the available credit, and allows some local guy to start a new business that hires someone and improves the economy.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the simple-minded ’spending’ of money ’stimulates’ the economy. Well, not if you spend it on gov’t buildings, bridges to nowhere, frisbee golf courses in Austin (for real, guys), etc. But don’t worry, the money was going to be ’spent’ one way or the other. Either the gov’t spends it for you on a wasteful project (or for building a new gov’t building, or buying new furniture for the gov’t building to replace last-year’s hideously out-dated furniture, etc.), OR you could spend it on local people, OR, you could save it in the bank and earn a bit of interest. Even in the latter case, it STILL gets spent by the guy who borrows it to start a new business or buy a new truck, etc. Even if all you do is pay your mortgage and credit cards, THAT helps stabilizes the credit sector, which a million bridges will never do.
BUT, I’m misspeaking here. I’m referring to this money as if it is actually coming from our current taxes. Instead, what we are about to get is a massive amount of debt and out-right printing of money. Whatever benefit we might get out of a truly useful infrastructure project, say the building of a coal or nuclear power plant, refinery, etc. (Oops, none of those are in the ’stimulus’ package!), is going to be weighed against the damage caused by just printing a trillion dollars. How much economic stimulus will we need to provide to overcome the devaluation of the dollar caused by that idiocy? Or how bad will it be in the year when our debt-service portion of the Federal budget has grown to well over half of the entire multi-trillion dollar budget? (You do realize that Obama has already warned us he expects multiple trillion-dollar budget-deficits over the coming years? So our total deficit spending for the first year Obama is in office is shaping up to be in excess of 2 TRILLION $$$, since this stimulus package is entirely separate from the actual budget.)
Ultimately, a tax-cut says YOU know the best use for your money, and those who support this sporkilus package believe GOV’T knows the best use for your money (or your great-treat-grandchildren’s money as the case may be). If the latter is true, then why don’t we just raise the tax rate to 100% across the board? If the latter is true, why don’t we have a stimulus package with some actual ’stimulus’ in it???! With Pelosi and Reid as leaders in Congress, how can the latter possibly ever be true??
Just bundling the money into money-cannons and shooting wads of cash up into the air for anyone to grab would be a better stimulus than this de-stimulus package. (Or a Stimulus Lottery for which any citizen is elibible!) At least then there would be an actual moderate chance that large portions of the cash would be used by (or loaned to) someone in a capitalistic way to start a enterprise that actually does something needful and hires people. Because THAT is what our economy is!
auuhhh, that’s the Backtrack Barry we know!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=azVLk.22AkLI
The problem is that the general public doesn’t pay attention to those pesky little details. The libbies hear that Obama is making sure people don’t get rich, and he promotes his socialist agenda, and they get big smiles. They don’t pay attention to the fact that there’s always some little sneaky devil in the details that stops him from really doing what he says he is doing.
AlexisM: people should really stop talking about “libbies” and conservatives. Lots of liberals don’t like Obama and did not vote for him. Are you suggesting that conservatives were objective about Dubya and took steps to keep him honest? That would be a lie. Bush’s hoodwinking (especially of the religious community) led to all the problems in this country today. Well, Bush II, Bush I, and Ronnie Reagan.
tek…I agree that we should all stop talking party, and start talking about saving America. But the one thing I don’t think Conservatives agree with, or ever will, is this redistribution of wealth nonsense, or the notion that we as a country should prevent innovation and hard work from being compensated. That’s a liberal agenda which is why I said it.
I’m a liberal. I don’t agree with redistribution of wealth and I don’t know where the notion comes from that it is a Democratic tenet. It’s communism, plain and simple. I am not a communist.
I believe in regulated capitalism which promotes innovation and appropriate compensation but prevents industrialists from ripping off everybody else in the country.
Obama got elected largely because people believed he was going to literally take from the rich and give to the poor. My point was that has never been up there in the GOP top ten list of how to govern America. If you don’t subscribe to that, great. I made a general point about a liberal agenda and I don’t think I directed it specifically at any one person.
tek, the so called libbies voted this charater in. so yeah i hold them as a group accountable. i also hold the repubs accountable for helping put this idiot in the wh. i despise bush2 as a president because he is as clueless as obama. the dims also enabled bush and never stood up for us. look at the bull they are pulling now.
uh, don’t forget Democrat Jimmy Carter. If you want to be fair, then spread the blame around, there is plenty. I don’t know a single liberal that didn’t vote for O but that’s not to say all of them did.
carter has lost my respect. being spiteful and biased doesn’t win kudos here.
THAT is thinking outside the box. We need a lot more of that. Kudos.
Gary,
Did you even read the whole statement? Tek uses the “we shouldn’t blame ‘libbies’ excuse” because some of them didn’t drink the koolaid and in the next breath, blames every conservative since Teddy Roosevelt for our present problems.
Thinking outside the box?
What horseshit! Tek, whether meaning to or not, has used one of Voldemort’s favorite tactics and you swallowed the Whole Thing. Tek said something you desperately want to agree with, i.e. ‘libbies’ aren’t all at fault for this disaster. ( from your statement, that seems to be your position to which, in the main, I also agree. But for a different reason.)
But right after that Tek tosses out a ridiculous generalization encompassing a whole list of “Repug” (Not said, but certainly inferred) presidents who we can all blame instead.
One mention above of Jimmy Carter, who Stinky Voldemort is most like, and completely left off the list is Lobbyboy Bill who could have killed Bin Laden eight different times.
The mind game of persuasion is ongoing 24/7 and it is easier than one may think to be swayed from the obvious.
Let us all recall our civics class and note that the bills which have been passed and the oversight which was never overseen is ALL on the heads of those in Congress. You might also look at who elected the ones who are trying to force feed us this f’d up form of Socialism. I Would call them “libbies.”
Regards
Nicely put Zeke.
Zeke,
Yes, I read all six sentences of Tek’s comment. My interpretation: Accepting stereotype labels leaves one open to deception. Not being swept along in that mode of popular thinking is outside the box. Popular opinion/modes of expression, etc. being the box, which is in my judgment, often intentionally shaped by people with bad intentions. “Socialist” vs. “Capitalist” is a much more harmful box/mental trap, on which I could write for pages.
I know nothing of “Voldemort’s tactics.” I don’t follow popular culture and am not aware of any poster using that handle.
Your interp. of what I “desperately want to agree with” isn’t accurate. I was agreeing per my interpretation of what Tek had said.
I thought Tek was blaming hoodwinkability as present on both sides / in both boxes.
It may be that I desperately wanted to agree with that. My interp of what Tek said could be wrong.
Apologies for slow reply. Just got back to internet.
Respectfully,
Gary
Smoking cessation activities. Interesting. Isn’t Obama a millionaire and he can’t quit smoking?
Cigarettes cover up the smell of weed… also explains all the extra lighters.
barry’s demenor is dark and threatening. no sunny city on the hill here! people will tire of him and vote his party out of power. think it won’t happen? watch! the aa’s make up 12% of the population. that won’t cut it. so brazile’s new voting bloc is going down in flames.
and uk, labor is on their day out the door also. they screwed up and let them stay too long at the table. that is so over.
The AAs are going to be among the first groups to abandon the sinking Obama ship IMO. They’re not going to get their cars, houses, etc. and I don’t really see them benefiting at all from the Pork Bill either. He made too many impossible promises. This is one of those reasons why it’s probably better to elect the honest person over the Messiah.
It appears that the Dems have stuffed all their dream policies into this bill. Obama has so far established departments and programs that pay people for voting him into office. I guess that’s the way American politics will operate from now on.
The salary cap issue is a side show and doesn’t solve the credit crunch. The solution to that will be much more challenging and should be born of well-considered deliberation. The POTUS is holding a gun to legislators’ heads on the wrong bill at the wrong time.
patience, it will be his first and last opportunity to do that. after this no one will give a rap what he thinks.
stimulus package?
JUNEAU — Gov. Sarah Palin is opposing the federal economic stimulus package pushed by her former campaign adversary, President Barack Obama.
“I agree with the decision of Senator (Lisa) Murkowski and Congressman (Don) Young to vote NO on the package,” Palin said in a written statement.
Normally the views of a small-state governor on the stimulus package would draw only local interest. But Palin is a different story. There’s been national media speculation about her position and, according to the governor’s office, erroneous reports in the Lower 48 indicating that she is supportive of the stimulus.
By Wednesday afternoon, the press statement issued by the governor’s office opposing the package was up on Palin’s Facebook Web page — right below an invitation to donate to SarahPAC, her new national political action committee.
Palin also e-mailed a letter to SarahPAC supporters around the country Wednesday, promising to speak out and propose new policies to “ensure that America’s best days are ahead of us.”
Palin said she agrees some kind of stimulus plan is needed and supports getting federal money for tax breaks and construction projects in the state. But Palin said she’s “against increased federal programs that will become a state’s unfunded mandate to continue funding for generations.”
Palin and Republican leaders of the state Legislature wrote a letter to members of Alaska’s Congressional delegation earlier this week expressing that same concern.
Thanks for sharing this Linda. I heard the story that she supported it and was very disappointed.
Posters, stop replying to UK. He’s not here to have any intelligent discussion but to aggravate and distract. Deal with him by not responding. You are trying to talk with someone who is not interested in anything other than his own fantasies. Leave it. He’s into wasting your time and energies.
Thank you Helen. I agree.
Get out some Preparation H and UK will go away.
Get out some Preparation H and UK will go away.
Good one.
Brings a new meaning to the phrase, “Hang in there!”
$125 million for the Washington sewer system is insufficient.
The cost of repairing said sewer system if every congresscreature who voted for either the bailouts, stimulus package, or both were flushed would exceed this figure.
Leave it in the package and expand to 435 million.
I’m a bit confused about this one:
$75 million for “smoking cessation activities.” (Okay - clearly these folks are UNCLEAR on the concept of for what the economic stimulus package is.)
When earlier this week I read this:
United States President Barack Obama has signed a bill extending health coverage to four million uninsured children. The money is to come from raising federal tobacco tax.
If the $75 million works and decreases the number of smokers… who will pay for the 4 mm towards the health coverage??
All of that stuff listed above adds up to what?
Around 12 billion dollars? (Check my arithmetic. I did it quickly. Maybe I’m wrong.)
We spend more than that in Iraq every 2 months.
Taken together, all of the stuff being held out as “pork”–selected because each item can be made to sound ridiculous if not examined carefully–is only a small fraction of the total economic proposal.
Compare that small fraction with the targeted tax cuts in the package–which most Americans like.
The whole idea of a stimulus is to infuse money into a stalled economy. Most economists believe that basic, underlying concept is sound. What isn’t liked are a few choices about where a relatively small portion of the total would be infused.
Also, some don’t like who would get the tax breaks. The democratic position is that consumers should get a big chunk. The alternative Republican proposal would spread them “evenly”, with a 5% rate cut across the board. The only thing “even” about that is the illusion of a single percentage.
I don’t think this is theing included complete list, cynic, just examples of some of the pork be. The Gang of 18 have come up with $100 Bil. to be taken off the $920Bil, and Lindsey Graham has gotten the whole package down to $415 B (give or take a few B’s). So, there are certainly projects to be cut. (Again, some of the ones mentioned above already are getting regular appropriations, and others should be in that category, not this stimulus package. IMHO, that is.)
One of the continuing issues, besides all the pork, is the lack of oversight. It seems the Senate has learned nothing after forking over $350 Bil for which they cannot account. That’s a pretty good chunk of change. If they can’t keep up with that amt., what assurances do we have that they can provide adequate oversight for the current package?
I certainly agree with you about oversight. I think we need some public-spirited watchdog agency to contantly scrutinize everything, with hotlines to the White House, the majority and minority leaders, and another straight to the media.
My impression is that Graham gets things down to $400 and some billion by paring it all down to tax cuts.
Maybe compromise will require equal attention to a reduction of both tax cuts and spending. Maybe pushing the urgency will force the needed compromise.
Another thing I would like to know is where is the ‘actual’ money coming from? It’s 100% deficit spending. And we haven’t even gotten to this year’s budget. Since Obama has already warned us to expect multiple trillion-dollar deficits, I assume that means we will exceed two trillion in deficit spending by the end of the year. So are we just going to print the money? Or are we going to borrow it? By the end of Obama’s one term, how much of our federal budget is going to be just debt-service? How much of the $2T is just printed, and what does that do to the value of the dollar (and my salary). And while injecting money into the economy in some fashion might be THE best solution to turn the economy around, doing it by giving it all to the gov’t is probably the least effective method possible.
Finally, to what degree do we actually just need to take our lumps. We certainly don’t want the economy to outright tank, but everything from stock prices to house values were overvalued. I think the goal should be to stabilize the patient and shoot for a normal recovery, not inject it full of adrenaline and push it out the door just for the sake of a quick result.
Amy, great points!
One of things that burns me is — there is only 1/2 billion dollars for supplementing states’ unemployment compensation.
So even though millions are unemployed and underemployed, notwitstanding the millions who have given up looking for jobs, and they are planning on expanding the term limit for unemployment (past 6 months), and we know that thousands more will go on unemployment — how come soooooooo little $ is going to fund unemployment benefits expansion?????
They are giving Hollywood almost as much money as unemployment agencies !!!!
What the f**k?
comparisons to FDR? chew on this from 2007
http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2007/08/22/larouche-proposes-homeowners-and-bank-protection-act-foreclo. html
notice I put a space between “foreclo.” and “hmtl”
The pdf file has a real easy-to-read flier that contains this:
“Whereas, in a similar, but lesser, financial crisis in the 1930’s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt intervened, Constitutionally, to protect banks and homeowners through legislation passed during his first hundred days in office, including the Glass-Steagall Act, the Federal Farm Bankruptcy Act, the establishment of the Home Owners Loan Corporation, and the appropriate use of the Reconstruction Finance Corporation;”