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	<title>Comments on: Citigroup&#8217;s Earnings: More Fuzzy Math</title>
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	<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:00:06 -0800</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: elise</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1190614</link>
		<dc:creator>elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 03:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1190614</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not LD, but I remember a story from last week about mall foreclosure. General Growth Properties is going to file Chapter 11. Their income has fallen due to chain stores going out of business. Last month, residential foreclosures increased by a record amount and now commercial property is in trouble. Another state is reporting double digit unemployment, although I don&#039;t remember which one or whether the total number of states is now eleven or twelve. It will be hard to hide the facts for long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not LD, but I remember a story from last week about mall foreclosure. General Growth Properties is going to file Chapter 11. Their income has fallen due to chain stores going out of business. Last month, residential foreclosures increased by a record amount and now commercial property is in trouble. Another state is reporting double digit unemployment, although I don&#8217;t remember which one or whether the total number of states is now eleven or twelve. It will be hard to hide the facts for long.</p>
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		<title>By: elise</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1190578</link>
		<dc:creator>elise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 03:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1190578</guid>
		<description>LD I should have read this post first, since it answers some of my questions. Just guessing, but it seems the Stress Tests will be reported only if the results favor the banks which they can fix with creative accounting? Is there anyway to find the truth and inform the public? Forget I asked the last question. That&#039;s probably the dumbest one I&#039;ve ever asked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LD I should have read this post first, since it answers some of my questions. Just guessing, but it seems the Stress Tests will be reported only if the results favor the banks which they can fix with creative accounting? Is there anyway to find the truth and inform the public? Forget I asked the last question. That&#8217;s probably the dumbest one I&#8217;ve ever asked.</p>
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		<title>By: Dakinikat</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1190043</link>
		<dc:creator>Dakinikat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1190043</guid>
		<description>The same stupid accounting tricks that brought down the likes of Enron and Worldcom.  If any stockholders fall for this, they deserve to lose everything.  This is just like how GS conveniently changed their fiscal year to avoid December.  This is walking the fine line between fraud and an anarchist view of FASB.

Shame on the FED for not calling them out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The same stupid accounting tricks that brought down the likes of Enron and Worldcom.  If any stockholders fall for this, they deserve to lose everything.  This is just like how GS conveniently changed their fiscal year to avoid December.  This is walking the fine line between fraud and an anarchist view of FASB.</p>
<p>Shame on the FED for not calling them out.</p>
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		<title>By: oowawa</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1189888</link>
		<dc:creator>oowawa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 17:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1189888</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Ponzi scheme revisted.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Exactly, Peggy Sue.  A Ponzi scheme defers the day of reckoning.  As long as new suckers are brought into the scheme to make it look like everything is on a solid foundation, the &quot;business&quot; thrives.  But the day of reckoning eventually arrives, at least in theory.  It is appalling, however, to see how long Madoff was able to fend off the ultimate accounting.  I&#039;m afraid that many banks and others in high finance will also be able to defer Armageddon for a long time.  After all, the government is on their side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Ponzi scheme revisted.</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly, Peggy Sue.  A Ponzi scheme defers the day of reckoning.  As long as new suckers are brought into the scheme to make it look like everything is on a solid foundation, the &#8220;business&#8221; thrives.  But the day of reckoning eventually arrives, at least in theory.  It is appalling, however, to see how long Madoff was able to fend off the ultimate accounting.  I&#8217;m afraid that many banks and others in high finance will also be able to defer Armageddon for a long time.  After all, the government is on their side.</p>
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		<title>By: Peggy Sue</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1189815</link>
		<dc:creator>Peggy Sue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1189815</guid>
		<description>I have the sense that the banks and the policy makers are living in la-la land and think all these &quot;private investors&quot; share the same deluded space.  With everything we&#039;ve seen and read why would &quot;anyone&quot; invest in a continuing scam?  This is exactly what made everything begin to crumble: The Big Lie.  This is not the foundation for a sustained recovery, only a wobbly shim before the whole house falls down.

Look at the language: creative accounting,the great whitewash, create the impression, phantom income, impaired assests . . .

Ponzi scheme revisted. Or part 2. Bernie Madoff was small potatoes next to this! 

Thanks for the ongoing material, Larry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have the sense that the banks and the policy makers are living in la-la land and think all these &#8220;private investors&#8221; share the same deluded space.  With everything we&#8217;ve seen and read why would &#8220;anyone&#8221; invest in a continuing scam?  This is exactly what made everything begin to crumble: The Big Lie.  This is not the foundation for a sustained recovery, only a wobbly shim before the whole house falls down.</p>
<p>Look at the language: creative accounting,the great whitewash, create the impression, phantom income, impaired assests . . .</p>
<p>Ponzi scheme revisted. Or part 2. Bernie Madoff was small potatoes next to this! </p>
<p>Thanks for the ongoing material, Larry.</p>
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		<title>By: I'm a Linda too</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1189784</link>
		<dc:creator>I'm a Linda too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:26:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1189784</guid>
		<description>Oh and yes, my husband was finally one of them.  in 2001 was advised that his job was finally being deleted and turned over to Contractors.

...it took more time.  First was the programmers and developers....Systems Administration usually requires hands on.  So they had to get a full team in place to be able to put them on sight.

Amazing the lenghths they go to, to fudge the books, huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and yes, my husband was finally one of them.  in 2001 was advised that his job was finally being deleted and turned over to Contractors.</p>
<p>&#8230;it took more time.  First was the programmers and developers&#8230;.Systems Administration usually requires hands on.  So they had to get a full team in place to be able to put them on sight.</p>
<p>Amazing the lenghths they go to, to fudge the books, huh?</p>
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		<title>By: I'm a Linda too</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1189780</link>
		<dc:creator>I'm a Linda too</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1189780</guid>
		<description>Absolutely.  And not a surprise about Citi being this is what has gotten them here.

And of course, Weary Barry is just handing over our tax dollars and burdening us with more debt, he&#039;s not intending or fixing the problems with these financial and housing institutions that got us here.

You know, this is just another version of what Amex They started of by laying off employees and hiring Contractors to make they were decreasing salaries for the books, share holders and stocks market.  But they were increasing costs (under different expenses) and having less Quality work by those employees.  They were playiing this game over a decade ago.

Then they perfected it by bringing in employees from India  for American workers to train.  They would put them up in hotels, 4-8 to a room and get good first hand training by the American employees, while building Call centers in India, or preparing for more &quot;Contractor&quot; work in India to do the work.  

After they were trained and shipped back to India, it took a little more time, then the remaining American employees, or even the American Contractor jobs went to India.

Gotta&#039; love their greed while burdening American&#039;s with loss of work and money but increased tax burden.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely.  And not a surprise about Citi being this is what has gotten them here.</p>
<p>And of course, Weary Barry is just handing over our tax dollars and burdening us with more debt, he&#8217;s not intending or fixing the problems with these financial and housing institutions that got us here.</p>
<p>You know, this is just another version of what Amex They started of by laying off employees and hiring Contractors to make they were decreasing salaries for the books, share holders and stocks market.  But they were increasing costs (under different expenses) and having less Quality work by those employees.  They were playiing this game over a decade ago.</p>
<p>Then they perfected it by bringing in employees from India  for American workers to train.  They would put them up in hotels, 4-8 to a room and get good first hand training by the American employees, while building Call centers in India, or preparing for more &#8220;Contractor&#8221; work in India to do the work.  </p>
<p>After they were trained and shipped back to India, it took a little more time, then the remaining American employees, or even the American Contractor jobs went to India.</p>
<p>Gotta&#8217; love their greed while burdening American&#8217;s with loss of work and money but increased tax burden.</p>
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		<title>By: oowawa</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1189737</link>
		<dc:creator>oowawa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1189737</guid>
		<description>Larry, it seems that the change in the &quot;mark to market&quot; accounting rules have given the banks a huge illusory windfall, and their subsequent reporting of &quot;profits&quot; have really given the stock market at large a big boost up.  Oh well.  You note that:

&lt;blockquote&gt;This “managed earnings” process can be played for an extended period, but ultimately the earnings - or more importantly “hidden losses” - come out in the wash.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My question is: when do you think this day of reckoning will likely arrive?  Do you have a general sense of when the actual concealed damage will &quot;come out in the wash&quot;?  How long can they continue the deception?  What might trigger the day of reckoning?  When might &quot;ultimately&quot; arrive?  What kibd of time frame are we looking at here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry, it seems that the change in the &#8220;mark to market&#8221; accounting rules have given the banks a huge illusory windfall, and their subsequent reporting of &#8220;profits&#8221; have really given the stock market at large a big boost up.  Oh well.  You note that:</p>
<blockquote><p>This “managed earnings” process can be played for an extended period, but ultimately the earnings &#8211; or more importantly “hidden losses” &#8211; come out in the wash.</p></blockquote>
<p>My question is: when do you think this day of reckoning will likely arrive?  Do you have a general sense of when the actual concealed damage will &#8220;come out in the wash&#8221;?  How long can they continue the deception?  What might trigger the day of reckoning?  When might &#8220;ultimately&#8221; arrive?  What kibd of time frame are we looking at here?</p>
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		<title>By: Objective Analysis</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1189734</link>
		<dc:creator>Objective Analysis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1189734</guid>
		<description>Until all these publicly traded companies start showing their STATEMENT OF CASH FLOWS and not manipulated Balance Sheet &amp; Income Statement, you guys will continue to think these companies are sound.

It is a crock of sh***.  They are creating a ponzi scheme like Madoff to give more $ to the federal reserve and Soros gang of thieves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Until all these publicly traded companies start showing their STATEMENT OF CASH FLOWS and not manipulated Balance Sheet &amp; Income Statement, you guys will continue to think these companies are sound.</p>
<p>It is a crock of sh***.  They are creating a ponzi scheme like Madoff to give more $ to the federal reserve and Soros gang of thieves.</p>
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		<title>By: lee M</title>
		<link>http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/04/19/citigroups-earnings-more-fuzzy-math/#comment-1189724</link>
		<dc:creator>lee M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 15:26:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=21870#comment-1189724</guid>
		<description>It is these games being played by the banks that will bring down the house.  By trying to induce investors, the banks are making fraudulant claims that really fool nobody other than the culpable few who believe in fairy tales.

As long as Geithner and Bernanke are directing the play don&#039;t expect anything but a &quot;Farce&quot;.

Liars and thieves who are allowed to operate so blatantly will bring us down as sure as shootin&#039;.

Transparency?   What a laugh. This collusion between Treasury and the banks is a good example of the sleight of hand Obama has been practicing all along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is these games being played by the banks that will bring down the house.  By trying to induce investors, the banks are making fraudulant claims that really fool nobody other than the culpable few who believe in fairy tales.</p>
<p>As long as Geithner and Bernanke are directing the play don&#8217;t expect anything but a &#8220;Farce&#8221;.</p>
<p>Liars and thieves who are allowed to operate so blatantly will bring us down as sure as shootin&#8217;.</p>
<p>Transparency?   What a laugh. This collusion between Treasury and the banks is a good example of the sleight of hand Obama has been practicing all along.</p>
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