Nancy Pelosi Is Lying
By SusanUnPC on April 25, 2009 at 12:25 PM in CIA, Congress (House & Senate), House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, Intelligence, President Barack Obama, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Torture
Now that President Obama has teed her up — by releasing documents before he thought out all the possible repercussions (except, he thought, to make his MoveOn crowd happy [as if]) — Nancy Pelosi is yowling loudly no way no how, no siree, au contraire, that she was aware that she and lead Congressional members were explicitly informed about waterboarding. Rep. Pete Hoekstra who was in on the THIRTY meetings informing members of Congress about what was going on, confirms that “they knew and knew in detail exactly what was going on.”
President Obama has rashly opened a huge can of worms, and his motive is disgustingly impure — it was an ill-considered attempt to placate his hard-core left supporters in MoveOn and big money bags George Soros. As Porter Goss writes in “Security Before Politics,” published in today’s Washington Post:
Since leaving my post as CIA director almost three years ago, I have remained largely silent on the public stage. I am speaking out now because I feel our government has crossed the red line between properly protecting our national security and trying to gain partisan political advantage.
Yes, the Obama team had a few meetings about releasing the documents, but apparently not enough meetings, and no one sufficiently looked at the big picture. Now this story has gotten completely away from them, as if the gate’s been opened, releasing a huge herd of wild horses.
Part of being an effective leader is having the wisdom and experience to foresee the “blowback” from one’s options before jumping at a “solution.” I just watched a great episode of “West Wing” in which President Bartlet uses chess games to teach his younger staff about how to make smart moves while foreseeing what is bound to happen. Over and over again, President Bartlet says, “Look at the entire board. Look at the entire board. Look at the entire board.” While these chess games are going on simultaneously in different rooms, Bartlet is also “playing” both China and Taiwan but not revealing to either his ultimate goal. In so doing, by making just the right moves at the right time and never tipping off either country, Bartlet gets the Taiwanese a free election and calms the nerves of the Chinese. And his young staff get an invaluable lesson.
President Obama, by NOT looking at the entire board, has imperiled Speaker Pelosi and every other Democrat who was in on those 30 secret meetings. Goss writes:
A disturbing epidemic of amnesia seems to be plaguing my former colleagues on Capitol Hill. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, members of the committees charged with overseeing our nation’s intelligence services had no higher priority than stopping al-Qaeda. In the fall of 2002, while I was chairman of the House intelligence committee, senior members of Congress were briefed on the CIA’s “High Value Terrorist Program,” including the development of “enhanced interrogation techniques” and what those techniques were. This was not a one-time briefing but an ongoing subject with lots of back and forth between those members and the briefers.
Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as “waterboarding” were never mentioned. It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience.
Let me be clear. It is my recollection that:
– The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists.
– We understood what the CIA was doing.
– We gave the CIA our bipartisan support.
– We gave the CIA funding to carry out its activities.
– On a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.
I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues. They did not vote to stop authorizing CIA funding. And for those who now reveal filed “memorandums for the record” suggesting concern, real concern should have been expressed immediately — to the committee chairs, the briefers, the House speaker or minority leader, the CIA director or the president’s national security adviser — and not quietly filed away in case the day came when the political winds shifted. And shifted they have.
Besides the outright lies of Speaker Pelosi et al., Goss gets into the likely outcome of the carelessly opened “can of worms” as well as the culprit who, sigh, does not have the experience or inclination to be a REAL LEADER, which requires careful forethought and looking FIRST at the “entire board”:
Circuses are not new in Washington, and I can see preparations being made for tents from the Capitol straight down Pennsylvania Avenue. The CIA has been pulled into the center ring before. The result this time will be the same: a hollowed-out service of diminished capabilities. After Sept. 11, the general outcry was, “Why don’t we have better overseas capabilities?” I fear that in the years to come this refrain will be heard again: once a threat — or God forbid, another successful attack — captures our attention and sends the pendulum swinging back. There is only one person who can shut down this dangerous show: President Obama.
Unfortunately, much of the damage to our capabilities has already been done. It is certainly not trust that is fostered when intelligence officers are told one day “I have your back” only to learn a day later that a knife is being held to it. After the events of this week, morale at the CIA has been shaken to its foundation.
We must not forget: Our intelligence allies overseas view our inability to maintain secrecy as a reason to question our worthiness as a partner. These allies have been vital in almost every capture of a terrorist.
The suggestion that we are safer now because information about interrogation techniques is in the public domain conjures up images of unicorns and fairy dust. We have given our enemy invaluable information about the rules by which we operate. … (Read all.)
Here’s Rep. Pete Hoekstra giving Sean Hannity the skinny on how much select members of Congress were told, in THIRTY briefings. (See article.) As Rep. Hoekstra notes, “[T]hey knew and they knew in detail exactly what was going on.”
Columnist Carolyn Lochhead lays out Nancy Pelosi’s trouble with veracity, and John Boehner’s delight in Nancy’s uncomfortable squirming, in the San Francisco Chronicle:
[...]
[A] full-blown battle has opened between House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco, and her GOP counterpart, Ohio’s John Boehner about how much top Congressional leaders knew about water boarding in 2002. It is being fueled in part by a timeline released by the Senate Intelligence Committee, chaired by another California Democrat, Dianne Feinstein.
Boehner released news reports from 2007 that seemed to contradict Pelosi, and Pelosi’s office fired back with their own. Boehner said Congressional leaders “received an awful lot of information” about interrogations, and that “not a word was raised at the time, not one word. And I think you’re going to hear more and more about the bigger picture here, that … the war on terror after 9/11 was done in a bipartisan basis on lots of fronts.”
Pelosi spent much of her press conference today addressing questions about what she knew.
The timeline showed that in the fall of 2002 Pelosi and other key members of the House Intelligence Committee were briefed on waterboarding and other interrogation methods Democrats now describe as torture.
We at No Quarter take personal delight in the pickle in which Nancy finds herself. It was she who abetted the plan to make sure that Barack got nominated and that Hillary didn’t. The popular theory is that Nancy wanted someone she could control so she could run the show in Congress.
Well, it turns out that Barack isn’t the only leader who needed to learn how to look at the entire board.
Check out more articles on Nancy Pelosi’s big problem via Google News. See also: Memeorandum.com’s collection of relevant stories and blog posts.
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Sometimes when I see his actions, I think of a pinball game, where you hit the little ball bearing with flippers, and it careens back and forth, first this way, then back again. That’s again a chess comparison, because he makes a move without thinking of the big picture, then has to react to others’ reactions, and on and on….
But sometimes I think it’s not a chess situation, but a poker situation. Pelosi thought she was getting someone she could control, maybe a numbered card. But lo and behold, he’s a wild card (because he has no principles but craves approval of the masses)
Imagine championing someone who is so stupid he cannot be controlled. Speaker Pelosi, takes one to know one.
Lorac,
Thank you for providing some great visuals. I think you paint the picture very well. Excellent analogies.
Susan — great article. While I would have rather we not employ these methods either, it looks ridiculous now for ranking Democrats to pretend they did not know what was going on.
I do not want to see our country harmed by this, but I for one, would like nothing better than to see Nancy Pelosi hoist on her own petard for all of her horrid behavior.
R.O.F.L.oh.Nancy..
“trying to gain partisan political advantage”
That could be one motivation. Does not mean there cannot be more than one.
I think Obama did this, at this time, to distract his supporters from thinking about the bailout/banking issues that were getting very hot in the press. He has done this before.
-because he has no principles-
nor loyalties.
Beautiful analogy!
I too take a certain pleasure in seeing Nancy Pelosi twist herself into knots. She’s clearly lying and she’s not even good at it.
What I don’t take pleasure in is the way our security is truly being compromised with Obama’s lack of leadership, the damage done to the necessary trust with and in our intelligience community. How many recommendations did Obama ignore before he deliberately opened this can of worms?
This is pure partisan politics and it’s dangerous. The very fact that George Soros is cheerleading the witchhunt should give us sufficient alarm.
I doubt the Dems will pursue this to the max because they’ll destroy themselves with the effort.
Soros won’t be cheering/smiling/laughing for long. If what we heard yesterday about GE and what they stand to gain in what they did for Obama during the primaries and are attempting to do now is true and we now have audio…We’re already suspect of the campaign fraud. It’s going to be Nixon and Watergate all over again.
The flood gates are opening all over the place, they won’t be able to control it for long. Now this. Democrat leaders are imploding on themselves. Republican leaders imploded on themselves and are now trying to pick up the pieces. Are now trying to get back to the basics of what their party stands for.
Maybe, this is good thing to happen to Democrats to bring them also back down to Earth. Back to the core of the party. It’s time for a third party to bring the other two to the reality of “We the people.” Not, “We the Government. We can do as we damn well please.”
peggy sue, it isn’t just barack’s lack of leadership. be sure and include the dimocratic party with particular emphasis on pelosi.
Who were the “Gang of Four” and what is going to happen to Nancy now that she has been proved the manipulating, lying piece of sh*t she is?
CAROL HAKA
I think our little Nancy needs to take a lie detector test.
I viewed Pelosi’s verbal denial as “splitting hairs”. If she were told about the exploration of these enhanced techniques, why didn’t she object at that time? Her excuse that she was never told when it actually began rings hollow, because at that point it would have been too late to object.
I agree that she often does not appear to be confident — like Obama she tends to stutter and stammer a lot. Poor Ms. Nancy — Karmic Blowback is a bitch, isn’t it?
It reminds me of the time Pelosi was asked about the sexism/mysogyny during the primaries and she said she hadn’t noticed–she was too busy in the House! I hope this brings her down from her pedestal. I was sooo proud when she became Speaker, but she has shown herself to be devious and greedy.
Yesterday she tried the semantics game. I knew they were going to but they didn’t tell me after they did it.
Her body language and facial expressions gave her away.
Nancy is in for a world of hurt over this one. And Harry seems absolutely apoplectic over the thought of an investigation.
I get the feeling that the shithead Dick Cheney isn’t trolling for nothing. He’s enjoying this. Cheney doesn’t jump into the limelight for nothing. God knows what he has planned. Whatever it is, it’s not good for America, but then therein lies the irony, because Nancy is proving to be not very good for the country either.
Indeed! But I hope all this back and forth shines a light on what actually transpired behind the scenes these past few years, especially since Pelosi became Speaker of the House. Let’s hope it comes to Pelosi resigning.
Wouldn’t that be a kicker!
Yes and let’s make sure she flies cabin on her way back to SF and pays for her own drinks…. no air force one or whatever she takes…
It is easy to tell why Dicky jumped into the trolling game, he isn’t going to sink in the ship without taking all the other rats like Pelosi et al!
and he will sink Obama as well
he’s far more wily
she reminds me of my kids.i could always tell when they were lying.always..
The reason Obama only wants to go as high as the lawyers who gave opinions is because he knows that the investigation will go nowhere because how can you prosecute someone for an opinon. If he goes higher than the lawyers, then the Democrats will also be investigated because they knew as much as the Republicans.
If Holder determines that crimes were committed, I don’t think there will be any way to keep it at the “lawyers” level. It’s going to be hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube.
On April 21st, with his comments, Barack Obama pretty much declared open political war on the Bush Administration. It’s going to be protracted and it’s going to be ugly. Both parties and the entire country will suffer.
I can’t figure our whether Obama stirred this up intentionally (the ultimate distraction), or whether it has happened because of his naivete and his compulsion to be on both sides of every issue.
As far as Pelosi, I believe she felt she had cover to lie and call for a “Truth” Commission because she knew that Obama would oppose such a commission. But poor Nancy doesn’t realize what a blogger on another site says every day: Obama can’t be trusted. I don’t think anybody knows what Obama will do from one day to the next, but one thing is for sure - He will throw Nancy Pelosi under the bus so fast it will make your head spin.
I’m not his agent, but Pelosi’ hokey pokey behavior is the topic of Rameriz’s current editorial cartoon:
That’s a good one. I’d like to see her/him do a similar cartoon about The Great One.
Another voice of approval here for the Nancy Pelosi Reality Show. This makes me smile like a sunny day.
I heard somewhere once (don’t know if it’s true) that the CIA operates independently of the WH. I hope that’s true because it will allow them to rebuild their organization’s effectiveness without the interference of The Inept One.
…but what if he keeps showing up at their doorstep (peering over their shoulders)?
Oh, man, my memory is failing me here, but something about this sounds familiar - didn’t Bush do something like this with the intelligence community….?
All members of Congress are two-faced, telling the public one thing, claiming innocence, when in fact they know otherwise. Dennis Kucinich says he would not go into the briefing meetings where members are sworn to secrecy, probably because he knows the administration was breaking the law or that the intelligence was cooked.
Here’s the thing though, all of us were previously informed of this torture, we were made aware of the waterboarding, and we were made aware of 92 video tapes of torture of which several were destroyed, in effect to obstruct justice. Additionally we were made aware of renditions, black sites, Abu Ghraib. We have all known for a long while that serious torture took place. The ACLU has been suing for the specific details of this torture for a few years now. Cheney requested that all the torture files be released. It seems weird to me that everyone is making a fuss about the recently released details of the torture, when for two years we have known that very severe torture took place. We heard specifics from those who were released. It seems the beans were spilled when the ACLU filed suit.
On this I agree Democratic complicity and what "politicizing justice" really means
also interesting… Transcript: Interview with U.N. torture official Manfred Novak
Ha,
Good one, Susan.
Signed,
Schadenfreude.
But, I do question the logic of this from PUMA for Life:
These “opinions” are not just “opinions.” They are legal documents.
You can prosecute a lawyer for a legal “opinion” that isn’t “legal”; moreover dissenting legal opinions were quashed by the DOJ lawyers, Yoo, Bybee, Bradbury, etc. That’s not ethical, and if you’re an attorney and you’re giving your “client” unethical legal advice, you can be held to account for it by the Bar.
Yes, an a priori recommendation to a client break existing can result in sanctions and prosecution; but an opinion as to what constitutes an illegal act, made in good faith, cannot.
Should read, “to break existing law…”
mountainaes, again you are no legal scholar. so please state it as a personal opinion. thanks for NOT PRACTICING LAW. that isn’t legal!
It’s a good thing that Pandora’s Box was opened, even if it was by mistake. A crime is a crime, and there’s no excuse for covering crimes. Reagan had his Iran/Contra Affair, and all the people that should have been punished, such as Abrams Elliot, and gone to jail, were hired by GW. Nixon never paid his price either, and we had GW, with Cheney believing that they too could commit crimes and never pay the price. If our republic is to survive the democracy in which it was founded, then those above must be treated equally.
Yes. “Now the story has gotten completely away from them.” If being a country that is run on the rule of law means anything, we can survive this cleansing action and once more turn our backs on torture as an option for our government.
The popular analogy of Nero fiddling while Rome burns comes to mind. We knew, and the Bush government knew we knew what was going on in Iraq. The same “tea party” people who marched against the Iraq war were ignored and the Bush government continued to do what they wanted even after the Democratic party was elected to “save us” in 2006.
And Pelosi, et al made sure that none of the Bush administration would pay when she took “impeachment off the table” and said that nothing Bush had done “rose to the level of impeachment”. At that time Mr. Soertoro/Obama was calling himself a senator and could have stood up and called his political party out…but he didn’t! He went along with keeping the Bush administration safe from even hearing the word impeachment. Now his little fiefdom, that we call the USA, is in so much trouble that he needs a distraction so he reaches all the way back to 2003 to suddenly discover that he didn’t agree with Bush even though he did nothing to stop him.
So while we ponder and dither and accuse what was allowed to go unchallenged by both parties for years, the guy who genuflected to a royal potentate and got away with it has used the old “bait and switch” con to try to distract us homeless, unemployed, angry People into ignoring his wrongdoing for a decade or so. The time to hold George W. Bush accountable was 2000-2008.
The time to hold Barry Soertoro, aka Barack Hussein Obama accountable is NOW. Today. Not in four years and not in eight. Those who concentrate on the mistakes of the past while ignoring the mistakes of the present will find them waiting again in the future.
Obama always quickly reacts poorly when he isn’t restrained and lets his emotions (ego) get the better of him. And obviously listens to he WRONG people. ie Rev Wright, finga’ to Hillary, etc
And Nancy thinks she can skirt that “legal” thing with her denial with her carefully chosen words. “I didn’t know they were waterboarding in Gitmo” But she was surely privy and said to get stronger the waterboarding when it was first being used in the ME.
Then her next carefully chosen words “I did not know they were torturing”. No, no Nancy, you thought waterboarding was a sport. I know “enhanced interrogation techniques” that were probably offered by Didney World. (snark)
Maybe he did think of all the repercussions, but didn’t care. George Soros is the boss and wants it done. Do you really think that Odrama gives a rats ass about democrats? Not likely. Narcissists only care about themselves. Possibly, he wants to get rid of all of congress (I’d be with him on that part) and then he can enact some emergency document allowing him to replace them all with whoever he wants to. I wouldn’t put it past him. Congress doesn’t really work out for him the way he’d like. He can’t do everything he wants with no resistance. But if he got his own lackey’s, even just temporarily…
I wonder if he’s even worried about 2012. If he isn’t, then that’s scary, because it could mean they learned enough/got enough experience in the last election, that they feel confident that fraud can pull them through the next election.
It’s so funny (not). This are the same types of thoughts I had a few years ago about the republicans. This is so awful, that you can’t feel like you can trust any of them, that rule of law and democratic, fair elections, are of no import to them - in either party…
That’s another possibility. Soros owns 0bama and he may not be able to break free of his clutches EVEN if he wanted to. 0 was not ready for this on soooo many levels. This whole thing is going to blow up in his face.
Below is a letter Sen. Saxby Chambliss wrote to a constituent in which he states that not only has the Senate Intelligence Comm. been briefed on “torture” but has and is conducting oversight. Of course we are expected to believe it is true when these lying SOB politicians tell us terrorist acts were prevented. And NONE are willing to admit torturing is ILLEGAL. They are all contemptible!
“Thank you for contacting me regarding an investigation of the treatment of terrorist detainees. It is good to hear from you.
The Senate Intelligence Committee, of which I am a member, was briefed on the details of the Central Intelligence Agency’s interrogation program throughout its existence and continues to conduct oversight. I believe that this program was not only necessary, but effective. We gained much needed knowledge about al-Qa’ida and were able to disrupt and prevent terrorist attacks against the United States and our allies from individuals detained by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).
“On April 17, 2009, President Barak Obama released a collection of classified Justice Department documents detailing interrogation techniques used against high value terrorists detained by the CIA. These documents describe in detail the legal authority that the CIA had to conduct interrogations and detain individuals.
“I do not support the prosecution of government officials who acted in good faith and based their decisions on guidance issued by the Department of Justice with respect to the detainee interrogation.”
And NONE are willing to admit torturing is ILLEGAL. They are all contemptible!
********
The don’t have to admit to anything..Torture and violation of Geneva Conventions are ILLEGAL under US Law..Title 18..2441
Under US law, the people who knew about torture and didn’t try to stop it can be charged under 2441 and if convicted could receive the Death Penalty. I wonder why Pelosi is lying her ass off?
Boy, Barack obama is even more naive and weaker than we thought.
Wrong.
I’d bet most here had it figured out pretty accurately early on in the camapign.
Well, it may wrong on some levels, but right on others.
My feeling is that there are others more powerful who tell him what to do*, so if/when he acts based on what they want, he is doing it without thinking of the big picture. In that sense he is weak and naive, I think.
But while I think he is mostly about self-promotion, he must have some basic goals he is pursuing, and certainly he is “strong” in throwing people under the bus. So in that sense, he is *not* weak and naive.
*(many people got him where he is, but the little people who did it by voting are often thrown under the bus; those who did it with big monetary influence aren’t thrown under the bus, and may be pulling his strings)
Obama is a National Security risk. This has always been my biggest concern about him.
His personality structure is not one of a leader. And his actions continue to support my assessment of his unsuitability for the office he now holds.
He is a small time politician from Chicago who only knows how to play by the Chicago rule book.
What will he do next to misdirect the fact that our economy is in the toilet???
He will throw out the first pitch at a Cubs game and be hailed as the next Nolan Ryan. Then he will campaign to be the first POTUS to make the Baseball Hall of Fame.
I wish instead they would have him at bat, and have that little girl pitch to him, the one who just pitched a no-hitter in an otherwise all-boys little league.
THAT would put him in his place!
I think you are right about this — it is his nature to put himself and his name first, rather than putting the country first. That is why he cannot see the whole chess board — he is much more interested in instant gratification and instant adulation. Real leadership and good governing doesn’t lend itself well to either category. Susan and Lorac called it correctly above that he does not take the long view of any of his actions.
Nancy “impeachment is off the table” Pelosi….your chickens have come home to nest….gird your loins.
Gird your own loins–or whatever strikes you as an equivalent since men stopped wearing skirts. It’s getting clearer by the day where this is headed. For better or for worse, it’s all coming out.
Don’t blame Obama or Pelosi. They were perfectly willing to leave the past alone.
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Okay, let’s think of how they might handicap this in Vegas:
Vladimir Putin versus Mr. O:
Arm Wrestling–who wins?
Staring Contest–who wins?
Game of Chess–who wins?
Game of Uncle Wiggily?
LOL–
Bowling? Street Fighting? Speaking without a Teleprompter?Basketball? Okay, maybe . . .putin came up the hard way whereas obama had it easy thought he’d like you to think otherwise.
This whole thing is so sad. So much for the Geneva Conventions and the Constitution. Both parties are complicit and making excuses.
People have watched both parties try to get rid of or ignore their right to protest and petition the government.
I really think when WE THE PEOPLE allowed the 2000 debacle to stand that was the beginning of the end.
I don’t believe Pelosi and company didn’t know. I ain’t buying it. They knew. But they chose to look the other way. Now their own “hopey changey” guy has made them a target. Gee, too bad - NOT.
Not taking to the streets in mass in 2001 was a huge mistake. We let everyone know that an American presidential election can be hijacked just as handily as a jumbo jet.
Amen, both of you. Exactly so.
Happy now Nancy? Hillary would not have placed you in this position.
But you wanted to be the Alpha Female in DC and damn what the voters in the Democratic primaries wanted.
Well Blinky Botox, you made your bed, now go bite your pillow.
But if Pelosi et al., were breaking the law, shouldn’t Hillary have exposed them as president? Wouldn’t not exposing them be just as political as what’s happening now (if Obama is following Soros’ orders, maybe not for dems benefit, but for their own)?
I know Hillary is a politician, too, but I like to think she has a strong ethical core - country before party, etc.
True, but I don’t think Hillary would have handled it this way — she would have “looked at the chess board” first and thought it through before opening up a can of worms with no idea as to the possible outcomes. She would also have measured the benefit/cost to the country rather than selectively dumping some memos before the people, and arrogantly assuming the rest wouldn’t come out as well. That’s Obama’s shortsighted method.
Exactly! That’s what I meant in regards to Nancy not being in the position that she now finds herself in. Hillary in all likelihood would not have pursued this matter in the manner in which 0bie has. Hillary would have taken into consideration the long term effect on the country rather than winning some brownie points with a few extremists and settling scores with enemies at such a high price.
If anyone knows anything about impeachments it’s Hillary …she was part of the legal team investigating Nixon and later we all know what happened with Bill. She understands what these things can do to the country and the long term ramifications.
I agree with this. I think this makes sense.
Any lawyers on here today?
SHV | 2009-04-25 14:13:19 | posted 2441 and I looked it up. Is going along with planned torture, such as being on an oversight committee in congress, conspiring? If so, Pelosi and a few others got some ’splaning to do, Lucy.
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 118 > § 2441
§ 2441. War crimes
(d) Common Article 3 Violations.—
(1) Prohibited conduct.— In subsection (c)(3), the term “grave breach of common Article 3” means any conduct (such conduct constituting a grave breach of common Article 3 of the international conventions done at Geneva August 12, 1949), as follows:
(A) Torture.— The act of a person who commits, or conspires or attempts to commit, an act specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control for the purpose of obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation, coercion, or any reason based on discrimination of any kind.
I should have added this:
(a) Offense.— Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.
Obama is to the Democratic Party what Dubya was to the Republican Party—both “coolers”–being agents of bad luck and destruction. Although, I have a sneaky hunch that Barry Soetoro may know exactly what he is doing to the Dems. Perhaps he is trying to undermine the Dems. in order to get rid of both parties so he can install a something like a socialist party.
Does anyone else get emails from the socialist World Workers Party—Marxist/Socialist? I never signed any online petition connected to them. I wondered if they got email addresses from those who contributed to Hillary’s campaign, which I did. I received one from them (and have received several before also) yesterday and replied to them to take me off their email list as I am not a Marxist or Socialist and would never support a political move in that direction.
I contributed to Hillary, but I’m not getting that email. Of course, after the DEm convention I asked that my name be removed from their mailing list. I did get alot of iffy crap right after the Unity rally because I had registered that I would attend so I could ge a parking permit. I had to request removal from BO’s mailers at least 4 times before they stopped.
Obama is to the Democratic Party what Dubya was to the Republican Party—both “coolers”–being agents of bad luck and destruction. Although, I have a sneaky hunch that Barry Soetoro/Obama may know exactly what he is doing to the Dems. Perhaps he is trying to undermine the Dems. in order to get rid of both parties so he can install something like a socialist party.
Does anyone else get emails from the socialist World Workers Party—Marxist/Socialist? I never signed any online petition connected to them. I wondered if they got email addresses from those who contributed to Hillary’s campaign, which I did. I received one from them (and have received several before also) yesterday and replied to them to take me off their email list as I am not a Marxist or Socialist and would never support a political move in that direction.
Ooops! So sorry for the “double post.” I tried to stop the first one because I noticed a “typo” in it but did not catch it in time. So sorry. . .
They wore no uniforms and were not an army from a specific country, therefore geneva convention articles do not apply to them. Any people who cut of civilians heads and soldiers heads and drag their bodies through the streets, and put bombs on women and children to blow themselves and others up are not worthy of any sympathy from anyone. I dont care what we do to them. Sorry but that is the way most of us feel about it. These people think that being human is weakness. We ignore how they treat their women as if it is not happening and continue to do business with them, and bow to them.
They think we are stupid and weak and are just waiting for their chance. This conversation is just the opening they are looking for. Barry the fraud is doing their bidding. He is not looking out for the interest of Americans because he and his wife hate America. The sooner we get rid of all of them the better.
I agree that there are those (people, dictators, governments) that you must be firm with, or they will run all over you. But I don’t agree that firm/strong is synonymous with “anything goes”, even if “the other” has crossed the line first.
By the same logic, then they have an excuse to “do anything”. People X behead one of ours, so we torture People Y, so then they torture People Z. It’s no different than stooping to their level. We have laws to prosecute and punish people convicted of crimes. We can lock them up forever (I don’t believe in the death penalty). But once we behave as unethically and lawlessly as they do, it becomes an endless game, with behavior getting more extreme with each turn.
The terrorists killed 3,000 people on 9/11. But we have killed far more innocents with the Iraq war. To many Iraqis, for a very long time, our actions felt like terrorism. What if they keep this feeling and become a really strong country? Then they would have an excuse to come here and bomb - because we did it to them.
I firmly believe we must protect ourselves and bring people to justice - but we can’t step outside the box of our own ethics and law. How would we be any different than the endless back and forth, for exmaple, between Israel and Palestine, or Shia and Sunni, the hundreds of years of endless bloody retribution?
We must stick with ethics and laws. Anything more, particularly based on “well, they did it first!”, is nothing more than revenge and sadism, IMO. If you’re in the right, you use ethics and laws - not more of the same.
Whoever posted about how there’s a difference between advocating torture and actually being the one to carry is out, was right on, IMO. No matter how furious you are with someone, it must be god-awful to actually torture someone. Personally, I’m not sure a psychologically healthy person could do it.
I agree and I am tired of the people who think that putting a bug in the cell of someone who is a terrorist who is evil and wants to destroy the United States is somehow torture. I don’t know alot about waterboarding but I do know it can’t be half as bad as being beheaded, being burnt alive on 9/11, or being a brave soldier fighting for freedom then to be murdered and have your body drug through the streets of Iraq. It’s fucking sick.
Think what you will but this country has saved millions more lives than any other country and most certainly more lives than we have taken. We are the first ones to offer help to not just our own but countries around the globe not just in battle but when a crisis arises-hurricanes, floods, typhoons, earthquakes, famine-we’re there-with people, with money, with our prayers. We have been standing up and fighting for freedom for decades. Unfortunately we often have to defend ourselves in ways that are not always the kindest option but are necessary.
Think about that the next time you put your kids to bed, lay down next to the one you love, and lay in your nice bed with a roof over your head and a fridge full of food. And tell me you wouldn’t do just about anything to defend that if a terrorist threatened it especially with the evil things they do. People want to frame this in a “two wrongs don’t make a right” reasoning. This isn’t about revenge. This is about PROTECTING OUR COUNTRY and in essence protecting many others who either can’t or won’t stand up for themselves.
So while you’re worried about some harsh interrogation techniques think about all the oppressed people around the world who live under dictatorship like Chavez and North Korea, who have little food, no health care and minimal shelter and virtually no freedome. Many dying from disease, hunger and malnutrition. And then tell me that supervised tough interrogation is not worth it.
AND HOW MANY innocent Iraq’s have we incinerated? The count is well ove 100,000. And guess what -Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. But that’s OK, I guess. After all we’re the United States of America where the citizens don’t have a clue.
you didn’t even read my post obviously. You must be a kool aid drinker. go get some help.
Many of us are tired of people like you blaming those who don’t agree for the problems of the world.
Torture is wrong, period. I don’t give a damn what we get out of it. We lose more in doing it. I have a living father and Uncles who fought in World War II.
Another relative who was pilot in the Vietnam and another currently in the Air Force. They all fought for an embodied the best of we have to offer, not the worst.
i am not worried about “harsh” interrogation techniques. i don’t care about the terrorists feelings period. i care about the constitution and the welfare of the american people. i despise those who don’t. that includes most of the democratic leadership especially pelosi. i don’t think this is the time or place for the outing of “torture” because it is a political scheme. and holder? please that pathetic joke! when then? i can’t say. now though isn’t the time with this group of fools and wanna be schemers. they are trying to distract us from other things. considering the number of times this has happened, i’d think we’d pick up on it by now.
Stodgie,
I’m enjoying immensely your comments today.
The Revisionists have been defeated!
Obama understands the suicide going forward and utter insanity of investigating and prosecuting the past administration.
We and others were instrumental in preventing this civil war.
I’m willing to bet the pics aren’t published either.
thanks seattle and back at you. i enjoy your views also. i am tired of the attempted manipulations. i want rule of law like everyone else. if i thought we’d have fair hearings and it wouldn’t further damage us, i’d say fine. but with obama and the gang who can’t shoot straight, i see a terrible failure and a massive black eye for america that would take decades to recover.
if the repubs are bringing this up, then they know that the dims will fall over themselves with the far left yanking their strings on a suicide march to nowhere. the amercan public will tire of them that much faster.
thanks seattle, back at ya!
seattle, yes i think obama understands that but have he and others unleashed the far left to such a point that they will continue to move forward in self destruct mode much like many on the far right did? of course, the american people will pay the price for this mass stuidity. i don’t favor breaking the law or torture. i have learned the hard way to not trust the accusers either and sometimes their answers are even worse than their questions. it is called being a cynic and i highly recommend it for all on here.
My whole argument has centered around the Pandora’s box being opened at a time of profound economic collapse and weakness.
Investigations and prosecutions will not stop until the existing country has been punished and destroyed and it’s culture replaced and enslaved by others..
Investigations and prosecutions will not end until every American pays reparations to those that committed atrocities onto us.
I have been saying it for 8 months
National Suicide!!
Stogie I know this as fact.
The democrats will be extinct in 2012 if they take this path.
History shows what’s next….
A Nationalistic Republican Revolution
it is an attempt to deflect. those with agendas will use their “righteous” prose to intimidate use with their views. if we don’t agree with them, then we are “bad” americans. duh! where have i heard that before? oh yeah, when i objected to attacking iraq.
their are posters on here who will bury us with articles that agree with their views. the purpose? well this esteemed writer said this and this, therefore i am right. not necessarily! at least not to the extent you propose or the timing.
ah yes, the timing? who can ignore that? why the media the gullible who want to believe in the righteous. we all want to believe in this. hell we had it pounded into our heads in sunday school.
but beware those who would manipulate you and look behind their words or writings. what is their agenda? this past campaign should have taught us that but apparently did not.
it is an attempt to deflect. those with agendas will use their “righteous” prose to intimidate use with their views. if we don’t agree with them, then we are “bad” americans. duh! where have i heard that before? oh yeah, when i objected to attacking iraq.
their are posters on here who will bury us with articles that agree with their views. the purpose? well this esteemed writer said this and this, therefore i am right. not necessarily! at least not to the extent they propose or the timing.
ah yes, the timing? who can ignore that? why the media the gullible who want to believe in the righteous. we all want to believe in this. hell we had it pounded into our heads in sunday school.
but beware those who would manipulate you and look behind their words or writings. what is their agenda? this past campaign should have taught us that but apparently did not.
beware those who want to manipulate us with their righteousness. look behind their words and writings and at their agenda. this past campaign should have taught us that but in many instances doesn’t seem to have done that.
well the dims do seem to be opening mouths and inserting feet!
Maybe this is the Fraud’s sneaky way of throwing Pelosi the Pig under the bus.
i would think that obama and many others would like to throw pelosi under the bus. she is way too much in love with the sound of her own voice. i have to wonder at how power hungry, greedy, and arrogant she is! furthermore i believe she is a liability in that her decision making skills are very poor. take a look at the speech she gave before the vote on the first tarp bill. after that the stock market fell over 700 points. she had a lot to do with that pathetic pork bill they had the nerve to call a stimulus bill also. she has no view just greed!
Say what you will,
my very first impulse is that Mr. Soetero is throwing her under the “proverbial” bus…she has been used, and she has served her purpose…Now she has become a political liability…
what a better way to get rid of her…
I am speaking about La La Pelosi…
Here is a link to a small photo of La Pelosi looking like she’s already under the bus and it already backed up over. You;ll have to scroll down, but it’s worth the look.
http://therealbarackobama.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/batchelor-potus-blinks-day-7-on-the-torture-memos/
Well, you may be right. At the very least, he may be trying to scare her, and others, into submission. He seems to need to be surrounded by “yes men” as much as, if not more than, Bush did.
Bush and Obambi are flip sides of the same coin..
I saw it from the get go..and time has served to crystallize my early impression of him…
Never…but never….did I think that after 8 ignoble years of Bush…that we were going to be subjected to more abuse and gross ineptitude…
It is inconceivable to me that there can be so many clueless people running around without a scintilla of critical thought!
i understand that a lot of these tecknics are used in basic training for our troops.
I don’t believe that is is part of basic training. As has been pointed out out this site, the training is based on illegal torture that was used on our soldiers during the Korean War by the Koreans and Chinese so that they can experience what they may be subjected to. The tactics are torture.
We weren’t taught anything like that when I served. Someone is pulling your leg.
The GOP may have found a leader.
“If we have another 2,000 people killed, I want Nancy Pelosi and [liberal philanthropist] George Soros, John Conyers and Pat Leahy to go to the funeral and say, ‘Your son was vaporized because we didn’t want to dump some guy’s head under water for 30 seconds.’”
First, Peter King takes on CAIR. Now, Pelosi and Leahy.
This whole mess is going to blow up in Obama’s face. There are many high ranking Dems that knew and were involved in waterboarding. Sadly it seems that most of them are still in office. S
o I bet that is the reason that Obama only was to persue the ones that are no longer in office.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/422ggyuo.asp?pg=1
I think this article is based on two unspoken premises - that if what “they” did caused our people torture, then we are also allowed to do torture; and the end justifies the means.
The author talks about how certain experiences, such as that of people in the burning World Trade Towers, was like torture because they had to choose between being burned up and jumping to their deaths.
But he uses that definition of torture to justify our torturing. It’s just this assumed justification. I don’t see it, myself. I think it justifies our hunting down and prosecuting those responsible. But I don’t see how torture justifies torture - to me, it’s nothing more than revenge.
How, specifically, by what moral or legal code, does them doing it justify our doing it? (other than our wanting to do it, to get them back?)
… and it also rests on a really black/white view of the issue - it’s all about “to torture” or “not to torture”, as if not torturing means we will do nothing. In reality, there are a lot of things in between the two extremes - like espionage, infiltration, trials, etc.
Our options are not as black and white as this article acts like they are. I think it’s a really simplistic way to structure the argument.
I’d like to say I don’t see how Pelosi can’t get out of this one but then it is likely she will. a Republican Congress member (can’t remember his name) said last night there were at least 30 briefings with 8 key people in them and Pelosi was one of them. He wouldn’t call her a liar but said “she has some memory problems”….30 times??
Why all of a sudden is Obama now saying he isn’t going to prosecute anyone regarding the interrogation tactics under the Bush administration? Looks like it could possibly be because some key Democrat members would be prosecuted as well. If they release all of the key memos and papers, that will tell it all. If they won’t release them, then they are hiding something.
Ruling his fiefdom just as he campaigned, by sowing the seeds of chaos.
With the scurvy crew we have running the show, both dem and repub, there’s not doubt that WE THE PEOPLE have to start all over.
whoops. NO doubt.
Who knew what, and when did the know it.
She stuttered more than Barry does w/out his teleprompter in her sorry ass excuse. One word: LIAR!
With any luck, this might suck the life out of the socialist agenda. Every hour they spend answering questions and devising strategy about this… well that’s that much less time they have to worry about spending our children’s inheritance. Nixon resigned over less than this. Let’s hope she is pulled into making sworn statements so the perjury counts can start racking up. Live by the sword… die by the sword.
I wouldn’t count on luck. I regard this as a disgusting and costly diversion from the next left-agenda power grab - health care.
what the dims have done is shoot themselves in the foot/feet so to speak. i read something btd on talk left wrote and he said in essence that obama and gang had a chance to go for the fdr route or the carter route. since they already were the gang that can’t shoot straight, we already know the answer.
i deplore the course our country took under bush as much as anyone on here but i never forget that pelosi and reid enabled them. they had knowledge and sat on it. they go to jail with the rest or NO ONE GOES TO JAIL in my view.
See now this is just disgusting. Apparently there is now a face book page regarding the olberman /hannity deal in the making and also acharity page for people to donate to have hannity go through the water boarding.
Disturbing comments, crass to say the least creating websites around this. Can’t imagine any insurance company would even touch this, let alone the legalities.
[...] President Obama and team THOUGHT through the blowback from their we’ll-have-it-both-ways approach to the torture memos, they’d have [...]
….as if the gate’s been opened, releasing a huge herd of wild horses.
mmm in some parts of the country that is a called a stampede.
Barlett n Toby on Chess