who’s going down for the torture memos?
By American Girl in Italy on April 26, 2009 at 6:20 PM in Barack Obama, Bush administration, Colin Powell, Current Affairs, George Bush, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Torture
(Bumped up from early morning.)
In my earlier post, holder: obama does not decide who will be prosecuted, I wrote,
“It appears Obama opened a whole can of worms with the release of these memos. Not only does he lack the authority to decide whether there will be prosecutions or not, I assume he also put members of his own party at risk. (Feinstein and Pelosi, members of the Intel Committee…)”
This appears to be just the tip of the iceberg. As reported in the Washington Post a newly released report from the Senate Intelligence Committee showed that Condi Rice played a greater role than she has previously acknowledged in the CIA’s harsh interrogation program, and approved the use of water boarding. The report finds that Rice approved the CIA’s request to water board a captured al-Qaeda member in 2002, making her the first known Bush administration official to do so.
Condoleezza Rice, John D. Ashcroft and other top Bush administration officials approved as early as the summer of 2002 the CIA’s use at secret prisons of harsh interrogation methods, including water boarding, a technique that new Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. has described as illegal torture, according to a chronology prepared by the Senate intelligence committee and declassified by Holder.
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld were made aware of the program in September 2003. “Strikingly, unless there is a further story in records not yet shown to us, the secretary of state and the secretary of defense were not involved in the decision-making process, despite the high stakes for U.S. foreign policy and for the treatment of the U.S. military,” said Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.).In the fall of 2002, four senior members of Congress, including Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), now speaker of the House, were secretly briefed on interrogation techniques, including water boarding, according to U.S. officials. Pelosi has confirmed that she was then “briefed on interrogation techniques the administration was considering using in the future. The administration advised that legal counsel for both the CIA and the Justice Department had concluded that the techniques were legal.”
Peter Hoekstra wrote in the Wall Street Journal, Congress Knew About the Interrogations - Obama should release the memo on the attacks prevented:
…Yet last week Mr. Obama overruled the advice of his CIA director, Leon Panetta, and four prior CIA directors by releasing the details of the enhanced interrogation program. Former CIA director Michael Hayden has stated clearly that declassifying the memos will make it more difficult for the CIA to defend the nation.
It was not necessary to release details of the enhanced interrogation techniques, because members of Congress from both parties have been fully aware of them since the program began in 2002. We believed it was something that had to be done in the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks to keep our nation safe. After many long and contentious debates, Congress repeatedly approved and funded this program on a bipartisan basis in both Republican and Democratic Congresses.
Members of Congress calling for an investigation of the enhanced interrogation program should remember that such an investigation can’t be a selective review of information, or solely focus on the lawyers who wrote the memos, or the low-level employees who carried out this program. I have asked Mr. Blair to provide me with a list of the dates, locations and names of all members of Congress who attended briefings on enhanced interrogation techniques.
Any investigation must include this information as part of a review of those in Congress and the Bush administration who reviewed and supported this program.
So, it would seem to me that not only could the lawyers who drafted these recommendations be subject to prosecution, but also Bush, Cheney, Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Nancy Pelosi and members of Congress.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Thursday said she had no recourse to stop the use of enhanced interrogation techniques such as waterboarding after receiving a classified briefing from the CIA in 2002 - an explanation the top Republican on the House intelligence committee called “the lamest of lame excuses.”
Mrs. Pelosi is one of several prominent Democrats, including Mrs. Feinstein, who is open to the possible prosecution of Bush administration officials who signed off on the use of the techniques, which Mr. Obama has deemed torture.
There was a good discussion on Morning Joe about this whole affair.
Visit msnbc.com for Breaking News, World News, and News about the Economy
Also appearing in the WSJ today was this article, Presidential Poison - His invitation to indict Bush officials will haunt Obama’s Presidency:
Mark down the date. Tuesday, April 21, 2009, is the moment that any chance of a new era of bipartisan respect in Washington ended. By inviting the prosecution of Bush officials for their anti-terror legal advice, President Obama has injected a poison into our politics that he and the country will live to regret.
Policy disputes, often bitter, are the stuff of democratic politics. Elections settle those battles, at least for a time, and Mr. Obama’s victory in November has given him the right to change policies on interrogations, Guantanamo, or anything on which he can muster enough support. But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.
snip
Those officials won’t be the only ones who suffer if all of this goes forward. Congress will face questions about what the Members knew and when, especially Nancy Pelosi when she was on the House Intelligence Committee in 2002. The Speaker now says she remembers hearing about water boarding, though not that it would actually be used. Does anyone believe that? Porter Goss, her GOP counterpart at the time, says he knew exactly what he was hearing and that, if anything, Ms. Pelosi worried the CIA wasn’t doing enough to stop another attack. By all means, put her under oath.
Obama said that only the legal advisers who are no longer in government should be investigated. I really don’t understand how you can prosecute legal advisors, but not members of the government who actually ordered these actions be carried out.
I don’t think Obama thought this all the way through, do you? Should he have checked with Eric Holder first? Do you think he really wants Pelosi, Powell and Rice brought down?
Politico has a story up titled Obama muddles torture message:
“President Barack Obama’s attempt to project legal and moral clarity on coercive CIA interrogation methods has instead done the opposite — creating confusion and political vulnerability over an issue that has inflamed both the left and right.”
The WSJ Presidential Poison article finishes:
Above all, the exercise will only embitter Republicans, including the moderates and national-security hawks Mr. Obama may need in the next four years. As patriotic officials who acted in good faith are indicted, smeared, impeached from judgeships or stripped of their academic tenure, the partisan anger and backlash will grow. And speaking of which, when will the GOP Members of Congress begin to denounce this partisan scapegoating? Senior Republicans like Mitch McConnell, Richard Lugar, John McCain, Orrin Hatch, Pat Roberts and Arlen Specter have hardly been profiles in courage.
Mr. Obama is more popular than his policies, due in part to his personal charm and his seeming goodwill. By indulging his party’s desire to criminalize policy advice, he has unleashed furies that will haunt his Presidency.
When you have pundits like Tingles beating the drums for the take down of Bush and Cheney, it doesn’t help the case for Pelosi, Congress and all those involved, does it?
“Well if it turns out that those who drew the lines and said it was okay to use waterboarding and other coercive techniques, violated the law, and those people who did so include the Vice President and the President what do we do? You say we might consider prosecuting them. But how do we do it? Under what law do we go after them? Under international law? Under U.S. law what do we hit ‘em for? If we do it?” ~Chris Matthews
(Release: November 13)
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Excellent toon!
Why is it an excellent toon?????It portrays Obama in a mocking manner as having unintentionally opened up something that he shouldn’t have opened up. There are plenty of ways to interpret what has happened up to now. One is that the Congress should have dragged Cheney, Bush et al down to their chambers and put them under oath. However, you may recall the respect that the members of the previous administration had for the Congress and its oversight responsibilities. It is more than a possibility that any subpoenas would have been fought all the way to the Supreme Court and possible that the Court might have upheld a Bush claim that the national security was at risk, blah, blah, blah. In short, what SHOULD have happened COULDN’T happen. So, the NEXT thing that one could argue might have been the best thing to occur would have been Obama, once provided the information on who approved what, ordering his Justice Department to immediately begin an investigation. The problem with that is that he would then, have been the prime mover for that action. It isn’t that what is happening is going to avoid claims of partisanship, but such claims are not going to have the force they would have had if Obama had initiated investigation.
While it is fair to discuss and consider the part Congress had in this horrible piece of American history, the claim that Congress has much culpability seems weak to me. First of all, there remained from the time of the attacks until rather late in Bush’s second term, a fierce “ribbon on car” attitude in our country. Immediately after the attacks, anyone trying to argue that a different approach than to attack Afghanistan should be considered, might have a shortened life expectancy. Certainly he/she would have been shouted down to nothing. That attitude only gradually dissipated but you see dregs of it still emerging in the defense of the torture that was approved. It isn’t an appropriate defense. Instead, it should be recognized for the pathology that it represented. It isn’t. In addition to that, the Congress people who were briefed got secure, secret briefings. Would prosecution of them have held up? It shouldn’t have based on international and American law that they were being briefed illegal acts perpetrated by our government…But, what if the pathology continued? What if the Courts decided that the information about the torture was secret and that the Congress people had done traitorous actions in revealing what they had been told? What if the administration DENIED them having been told about torture? I think Congress gets a get out of jail card.
The people I am REALLY concerned about prosecuting are those highest in the administration. How can Bush and Cheney NOT be prosecuted? Rice, based on the new revelations, The various Attorneys General, and the lawyers who drew up the odious opinions. Oddly, to me, Rumsfeld, it turns out, might not be so culpable. Powell also seems to not be so involved based on current reports. Anyway, this HAS to happen. What occurred was sick, dysfunctional and if our nation doesn’t find a way to clean it up we cannot lay claim to being what we were. The elsewhere on Colonial approach to treating the enemy is something that I have ranted and screamed wherever I have argued for several years, after reading “Washington’s Crossing.”So, it turns out that what has been destroyed by the Bush administration torturing, is quite real. (Yes, there are many examples of battle field torture by Americans but NEVER perpetrated by the heads of our government. AND, our country has prosecuted soldiers for torturing, including waterboarding). In any case, had Obama not allowed investigation to go forward, he would not have the defense that Congress people have and he, himself, would be culpable and subject to indictment and trial. Our law says he has to allow investigation. Why diss him?
well james, you write and say quite a bit. but i am left with this thought. the dirty would be accusing the dirty. there can be no success with that. just a temporary victory while trudging on with the ones also responsible to the next nightmare. beware what you pray for these days. think of barney frank holding hearings on all that went wrong with finance. he is the poster boy for what went wrong. see what i mean?
James, I share your outrage over what Bush&Co did over the last 8 years. But your faith in Obama and the Democrats is as pathological as the issue.
We shall see. But I do not think this will go very far, beyond throwing a few lawyers to the wolves. Obama and his crew will stir the pot, let us relive the rage. But going forward with a full-throttle investigation and putting bigtime Dems at risk?
I’ll be amazed.
OMG. you voted for The Empty Suit, didn’t you, james? Congress can’t be held accountable, because after all, they just got caught up in the moment, right? they were afraid that somebody might criticise them if they spoke out, right? i’m sorry; i am an adult and have not abandoned every last shred of decency and morality - congress is every bit as guilty as the bush admin, and that includes the democrats. the last 8 years would not have happened without democratic complicity - end of story.
many of us have been paying attention a little longer than you have, james, and have seen the democrats prove themselves unworthy of our support or defense, year after year, for at least the last 8-10 years. i’m not buying the excuses anymore.
i would like nothing more than to see nancy pelosi flattened by Ozero’s stolen bus, but hey james, don’t worry, it’s not going to happen; it’s all just a political game, and once the dems figure out that the torture prosecution is a double-edged sword, they will quietly forget all about it.
We should all be e-mailing our Senators, and Congresspersons, and asking for any and every member of Congress who knew of these techniques, and ,or voted for funding these programs to also be prosecuted. I e-mailed mine and got a next day reply from Carl Levin. Never have I recieved such a quick reply. He talked around the issue but didn’t answer my question which was, “If Bush was guilty so was Congress and will you go after members that knew?” So I fired another e-mail but didn’t get a reply. Now I am no Bush supporter but whats fair for the Goose is fair for the Gander. I am also upset that 9-11 is being used again for political gain and its time we stop it.
IF this mess is to be handled fairly it going to require a very fair investigation. That means that anyone in Congressperson and other Government Management Personal that did not step up to the plate and VERY Loudly protest waterboarding are at fault. These people that just stood by and said nothing when their voice or support could have prevented it or gotten it stopped sooner are just as guilty.
I have a feeling that many many people are going to be doing as Peloski is doing. Many many who had direct knowledge and did nothing are now going to be screaming about how criminal waterboarding is and was.
the dimocrats can’t and won’t hold fair hearings in my view. till we can do that i see no movement forward for the benefit of the american people. i refuse to get caught on in righteous furor with no real results.
It seems that the fundamental disagreement fueling this issue is the definition of torture, and whether it should be used even in extreme circumstances.
I have not yet seen or heard of any evidence that indicates that anyone under Bush’s authority received approval for, or practiced any enhanced interrogation worse than waterboarding. Actually, not only is it is clear that a substantial effort was made to get the proper permission for the CIA to conduct waterboarding, but that its’ possible use was revealed to members of Congress (Rep. and Dem.) and objections were not filed. In other words, the request to waterboard navigated through the proper channels, and permission for its’ use was implicit by the people who could have prevented it. Again, classifying waterboarding as torture or not was pivotal to the question, and at the time, it was not considered torture as defined as something prohibitted by the Constitution.
There was a time in this country when slavery was legal, and the SCOTUS even recognized it as such. A bloody civil war was faught, in part, to resolve the issue, and fortunately, the victor in that dispute abolished slavery, ending thousands of years of its’ use as an accepted practice. After the war, prior slave owners were not rounded up and imprisoned, because at the time they owned slaves, it was legal. Also, all prior Presidents and administrations (many were slave owners themselves) were not dragged into an ex-post-facto witch hunt.
Holder has defined waterboarding as torture, good for him, maybe it is (many of us don’t think it is). However, the incidents in question took place when it was not defined as torture, and it was not kept secret from the people that could have prevented its’ use. It is not justice, in fact it is malicious, to persecute and prosecute anyone involved in a practice that was considered legitimate at the time. It is even more disgusting when the witch hunt is being conducted by the ingrates that were protected and possibly saved by the very actions they’re now bawling about.
From the very beginning I said that Obama had opened up a VERY BIG can of Worms. There are probably serveral big wig Democrats that knew and supported waterboarding.
It looks like Peloski is the one of the big wigs trying to duck and run the fastest right now.
So how many will end up under the bus? How many Democrats will end up regretting their support for Obama as the bus rolls on over them?
ooooooooooooh.a lot.at least i hope so..
who’s sorry now Nancy…….
Run Nancy Run Nancy Run
The Obama Bus is a coming for you
This isn’t going to come back on Obama. If republicans had any sense they would have let the whole thing rest. They would have told Cheney to shut the hell up. Cheney was the guy who forced the whole issue.
The democrats couldn’t have stopped Bush even if they had known what he was doing. They were in the minority. They lacked the votes. Not that there ever was a vote. Nobody ever got to give a thumbs up or a thumbs down on the matter of “enhanced interrogation”. The democrats couldn’t appeal to public opinion, either, because anything actually revealed to them was classified information.
bull. sh*t.
If Holder determines that crimes were committed, I don’t think there will be any way to keep it at the “lawyers” level. It’s going to be hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube.
On April 21st, with his comments, Barack Obama pretty much declared open political war on the Bush Administration. It’s going to be protracted and it’s going to be ugly. Both parties and the entire country will suffer.
I can’t figure our whether Obama stirred this up intentionally (the ultimate distraction), or whether it has happened because of his naivete and his compulsion to be on both sides of every issue.
As far as Pelosi, I believe she felt she had cover to lie and call for a “Truth” Commission because she knew that Obama would oppose such a commission. But poor Nancy doesn’t realize what a blogger on another site says every day: Obama can’t be trusted. I don’t think anybody knows what Obama will do from one day to the next, but one thing is for sure - he will throw Nancy Pelosi under the bus so fast it will make your head spin.
Flashback: When Clinton was President, Torture was Good.
Under the control of Richard Clarke, the CIA’s Counter-Terrorism Center (CTC) had established a specal bin Laden unit in 1996, and by 1998 had over one hundred case officers and intelligence analysts.
” With the help of the CTC, forty terrorists from the former Yugoslavia were captured and turned over to Arab governments, usually Egypt. Egyptian security is believed to have tortured, tried, and executed many of them. In this way, al Qaeda cells were quickly smashed in Albania, Bosnia, and elsewhere.”
– Losing Bin Laden, by Richard Miniter
An interesting read on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_renditionj
(And in advance, Wikipdedia is no less reliable then the Main Stream Media)
I think I found what you’re talking about. Your link doesnt work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
By doing this Obama has essentially created a mess within DC and America that will create pandemonium throughout our country.
Was this intentional to cover up something else or is Obama actually this stupid.
In the barely 3 months that Obama has been in office I can’t think of one thing he has done good for America.
However I can think of many many things that Obama has done and said that has hurt America throughout the world.
When will Obamam stop? I am begginning to wonder if America can survive Obama’s presidency.
If you question why BO did this or that in a given situation, and one of the options is, because he’s stupid, choose that.
Read my post at bottom…. I know Obama is stupd, I just didnt think he was this Stupid.
He is stuck on stupid.
Every new administration has policies that are different from the prior administration. Isn’t that what elections are all about? Never in this country has a new administration gone back to the prior administration to prosecute them for differences in policy. Where the hell would that end?
Waterboarding was known about, accepted, and allowed as a legitimate form of interrogation, and to the “controlling authorities” it was not considered torture. Personal opinions whether it is, or isn’t torture are irrelevent. My personal opinion about elective abortion after the first trimester is that it is murder, but current law allows it. If the law were to change to reflect my feelngs on the subject, would it be fair to go back in time and prosecute all those involved with the 40 million abortions since Roe V. Wade? Of course not.
It is certain that a full blown “Spanish Inquisition” on the matter will cause immense damage to this country.
You wonder if 0bama is allowing this travesty because he is either stupid or he actually wants to see this country trashed. I say both are true. 0bama is an idiot; a preening, egotistical, Narcissistic idiot! All of his actions so far with the economy, foreign felations,(oops, I meant to write “foreign relations”, but I think I’ll keep it the way it is) and political matters, have been terribly damaging, so much so that it can’t be coincidence. There’s no contradiction between 0bama being an idiot and wanting this country dragged down. You would HAVE to be an evil, blithering idiot to want and seek the destruction of this country. Don’t think it can’t happen.
Sorry, but I don’t for two seconds buy the idea that “Obama does not decide who will be prosecuted.” The president demands absolute loyalty from his “team”. I expect he will get it in this case, as he has previously with Treasury.
I can’t shake the feeling that there’s something else at work here. While Obama has made unceasing reference to the “mess” he inherited from Bush, he has to date shown little departure from Bush’s policies on the major issues. He has also refrained from attacking Bush directly.
So often when things like this crop up for seemingly no reason there’s another, larger issue in the background. And yes, we do have larger issues than prosecuting the torturers in the previous administration, though I would celebrate that happening.
I agree. What bills were introduced and what mid-level appointments might we have missed last week while the nation was debating only the memos?
Every time he pulls one of the press-grabbers there is probably something evil going on elsewhere under the guiding hands of his directors.
ps. If you have not already, check out the Obama - Indentured Servant post from earlier this morning.
Perhaps “constitutional expert” Obama is trying to divert attention away from the fact that his administration is urging the US Supreme Court to overturn the landmark decision in Michigan v. jackson, 475 U.S. 625 (1986) that guaranteed the right to counsel under the 6th Amendment to criminal defendants during pretrial interrogations. The question is why would Obama seek to remove this constitutional protection to have an attorney present while being questioned by government authorities? And why is this action, although in itself public domain information if one knows where to look for it, only being popularly reported in the British press?
Barack Obama administration seeks to change police questioning law
Can you give a link? The blue didn’t work for anything.
Never mind. I found it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5214985/Barack-Obama-administration-seeks-to-change-police-questioning-law.html
Because That One resides where the extreme left and extreme right meet. He wants to be an autocrat like no other. Of course, we tried to dissuade the 69,000,000 bots from falling for his schtick.
As I tried to say in another post that was lost in the muck for some reason.
Please Mr President start working on fixing America instead of destroying it.
AMEN..our beloved country needs a lot of t.l.c.right now..
Good post Sara and great cartoon……
What a mess…. such an utter mess.
If they are going after the lawyers in this case they rightly should also bring in all of congress who signed off on this act.
I have no compassion for Pelosi she overlooked everything last year and shoved 0 onto us all
She wanted to be Queen Bee in power : Nancy you got what you asked for someone in power that has no idea what his left hand is doing from his right……
You got it Nancy “Queen Bee” one sting and your done.
Let’s hope when this has to come out it all comes out. We need some independent citizens to over look all these issues not a set from congress who will cover up the parts they do not want us to see…
The CIA will never trust this administration they will always be looking over their shoulder…..
Around the world in a 100 days! We are becoming the laughing stock of the world….
I am sick of the media portraying 0 as the same as the past Presidents, FDR, Lincoln, Mr. President you are no JFK. He is one on his own and he is daily bringing the country to its knees.
Many will look back and yearn for Bush to be back in power.
I trully thought that no President could make Bush look good. However, Obama is doing a very good job of making Bush look fantastic.
I trully never thought we could ever end up with a President dumber than Bush. Guess what guys I think we have found the man dumber than Bush and he’s in the Oval office. I’ll give you all two guesses as to his name..
Who’s going down? Hopefully everyone involved in this sordid affair, including Pelosi. She is so beyond repugnant and repulsive.
I think we have to remember that Washington is controlling the message right now with the fawning press. The buzz before the torture memo business was the Hug-Chavez moment [complete with a book club membership] and the King Saudi bow. The wink-wink stress-tests on the banks have faded into the background. We’ve received very little coverage on the dangerous developments in Pakistan though Hillary Clinton made a surprise visit to Iraq, so she’s in the Middle East right now.
All these things are churning [I'm sure others we're not aware of]. And what does DC do? They lob the torture bone, and everyone’s attention is diverted.
The Obama spin machine will follow the moment with a stomach churning 100-day celebration with a slew of “kool” photographs and slobbering media pieces.
Was Obama off his rocker when he released the torture memos? Not even close!
Look at my hand, not the bunny up my sleeve.
thanks peggy sue! my point exactly! if we look at this torture issue, i don’t think now is the time with this pack of idiots up there. it will be political scheme and whine time. so excuse me i want hearings when they will be real hearings and not dimocrat show trials with the ones prosecuting guilty also. MANY AMERICANS ARE NOT FOOLS YOU KNOW.
0 and congress should just butt out and let the DOJ do the job it’s supposed to do. Whoever broke the law should have to answer for their crimes. Cripes, I can’t even get a pass on a parking ticket.
On 0’s comment that we shouldn’t dwell on the past, then why hasn’t he suggested we “forgive” Bin Laden and the Al Queda thugs who prompted this mess? Why was it NOT ok for them to kill thousands of Americans, but completely OK for us to kill tens of thousands of Iraqis who had absolutely nothing to do with terrorists?
We already know our government has worse ethics and morals than Atilla the Hun, but something’s not quite right here, unlss you equate American lives to be worth more than anyone else’s. Which, of course, we do.
If we have the rule of law then we must start to live by it.
the issue to me is that the doj won’t do the job it is supposed to do. holder in my view is a political hack who will do obama’s bidding. call it this and that but in the end that is the result. yes, it would be vey nice to have a trustworthy independent attorney general, but that is not what we have now. reality check!
Hoekstra’s source here is a December 2007 Washington Post article that leaked information about a classified 2002 congressional security briefing. The article names four democrats allegedly in attendance when “enhanced interrogation” was discussed in detail.
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OTAzMjI3OGI0NmJhZDJmYWU5YzIzZjlhNjRmYjNiNGE=
The WaPo spin intended to implicate minority democrats in a republican adminstration’s criminal behavior is glaringly obvious.
An interesting question comes to mind: Who was present at that secret 2002 meeting that deliberately leaked classified information about it to the Washington Post for political reasons? Considering the tone of the information released, it’s a safe bet that it wasn’t a democrat.
Assuming that Pelosi actually was informed in detail about the Bush “enhanced interrogation” program in 2002–a vague allegation, not an established fact–would she have been at liberty to reveal information about a classified topic discussed during a secret congressional briefing? The short answer, of course, is No. To do so would have been a criminal act.
Then why is she so busy tap dancing, dissembling, foaming at the mouth and stuttering if she did nothing wrong.
The larger point here is that no matter who was in charge — they all gave their consent.
That is what has not been established.
Certain congressional representatives were suppposedly informed. They were not given a vote on the matter. Nor were they at liberty to publicly discuss what may have been revealed during the course of a secret meeting on classified activities. Presumably they still are not at liberty to discuss those classified matters openly.
Although somebody in the republican camp has obviously made some politically calculated stragegic leaks to the press. It wouldn’t be the first time they did this, would it?
Prove it or shut up.
She is as guilty as the rest, you little comic strip buffoon. That you can never find any fault with your Messiah and his minions speaks volumes about you, troll, and your continued suspension of disbelief. Pelosi knew and did nothing; she took impeachment off the table, which allowed Bush to continue his mis-governance. Just why did she do that, obamabot? Perhaps because she is as dirty as the rest of them? That makes more sense than your half-assed, half-cocked, half-witted musings.
Nice try but no dice.
“Prove it or shut up” might be good advice for everyone.
Let’s not forget that Obama expressed a desire to look forward, not backward. People wouldn’t have it. The idea that judgements should be left to the history books only resulted in personal attacks.
It’s the same thing with Pelosi, attacked for her decision to take an impeachment effort off the table. The question was whether we wanted to attend to urgent business or bullshit. Apparently a significant number prefer bullshit.
just like Nancy’s bullshit when they were briefed on the position of obtaining information from terrorists…..
and I guess she was not there when 2 on this committee asked was water-boarding enough to get the information needed.
She has selective hearing? You betcha!
What makes you think the “2 on this committee” who apparently wanted “enhanced enhanced interrogation” weren’t republicans?
Did you notice that–with a single exception–the person who leaked info about the classified congressional meeting only named democrats? “Someone” had no problem naming democrats when useful. Yet when “2 on this committee” were mentioned, “someone” suddenly leaves identities to the imagination. Hey… I’m having a hard time imagining minoirity democrats jumping up and down as Bush administration cheerleaders, demanding more torture.
This is the sort of crap that tends to bend the needle of any fully-functional bullshit meter.
Pelosi is as bad as the rest, troll, if not worse. That you are a partisan little snip has not gone unnoticed by any regular here. And frankly, if we wanted any bs from you, we’d squeeze your head.
I presume there are many here who remain attentive to logical arguments. I’ll become less partisan as soon as the GOP begins to show some sign that they might be recovering their collective sanity.
You wouldn’t know logic if it bit your cartoon ass, troll. You constantly engage in equivocation and strawman as well as fallacies of the unknown fact and ad populum arguments. You better quit throwing around logic because I will kick your silly little ass in that arena, bot.
However, I will admit to the ad hominem abusive because you’re a drip and I admit you are.
This isn’t about the GOP as I told you donwthread. You obamabots/leftist thugs had your chance with The Botox Queen to stop Bush in his tracks. You didn’t so STFU, troll.
whoever said it it really does not matter… what matters is NP was in a position to speak up…voice her concern?
NP WAS DEAF ENOUGH TO LET IT GO SHE DID NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT? She let it slide like she has done whilst in power.
GOT IT NOW??
Are you seriously suggesting that the minority leader of the House should have made public–during wartime– classified information that was revealed to her during a secret congressional meeting?
That would be criminal, and could possibly be considered treasonous.
Have you got that? Because that particular point isn’t simply a matter of opinion.
We’re still at war — So whats the diff between Obama doing it now or if Peloski had objected then.
Only diff I see is that it looks like Obama’s bus just might run over Peloski now plus a few other big wig Democrats too.
One never said she had to make it public this could of been noted in the memos they are now releasing would look better for her.
You saying she was unable to Voice opinion/concern in a private disscussion….. ????? Many would state their concern if something was put in front of them on which they did not agree.
Obama is empowered by law to selectively declassify certain information at his discretion. That’s the difference.
Obama fully understands that Pelosi’s adherence to the law will serve as her solid defense, should push come to shove. Her attackers don’t seem to have figured this out yet: anything they compell the President to reveal is actually a single-edged blade, and they’re likely going to be on the wrong side of it.
well it looks like it’s all at hand!
Yeah, as part of the same old politics.
LMAO. Botox Queen is stuttering and stammering at an even more frenetic pace than Your Unholy One. Amazing.
Dry up, Zippy. Your hogwash is as bad, if not worse, than any bushbot bs I’ve ever had to suffer through reading. Your spin cycle needs to be followed by an immediate bleaching rinse because the crap you spew is quite noxious.
Which translates from obamabot double-speak as the same old politics in English. So much for change, you obamabot liars.
So you come here, criticize Bush at every available opportunity but when Pelosi had a chance to actually take him to task for misfeasance, if not malfeasance, you’re OK with it. Oh, I forgot, not only are you a hypocrite, you’re an ignorant one.
So shut up about Bush, dumbass, because you duds lost your opportunity to do something. Christ you obamabots are only slightly more advanced genetically than slime mold.
Go pollute another website with your unmitigated tripe, troll.
“It wouldn’t be the first time they did this, would it?”
No, Ziggy. You’re right. It’s called political manipulation. And the Dems do it, too–without apology to control the message. I think you’re right about this as well: Nancy Pelosi would not have been at liberty to discuss what she’d heard in the moment. Secret meetings are secret meetings and security issues are not blabbed.
But lying to the public now? And if and when the proof comes out that she is indeed lying? [And I think there's every reason to believe that to be the case.]
She’ll be cut to ribbons. And anyone else denying that they knew will share the same fate. And that’s why I don’t think this affair will go very far. Just far enough to get the blood roiling, blood pressure elevated. Until the next diversion.
YES.they did…..
Sorry, wrong link up above.
Here’s the link to the 2007 Washington Post article itself:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/08/AR2007120801664.html
“The Nation” editors wrote “Orders to Torture” back in 2004.
“The Abu Ghraib prison scandal now implicates the highest levels of the Bush administration in violating federal law and in war crimes.”
“The War Crimes Act, passed by Congress in 1996, allows criminal prosecution of Americans for actions that violate the rights granted prisoners and civilians by the Geneva Conventions and for “outrages upon personal dignity.”
1. “It is backed by the full range of federal penalties, up to and including the death penalty.”
2. “All treaties, including the Geneva Conventions and the Torture Convention, are likewise the binding law of the land.”
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040607/editors
Also, this post might add some information to your dossiers:
http://www.examiner.com/x-6639-Seattle-Democrat-Examiner~y2009m4d25-Dick-Cheney-and-torture
Obama is a brilliant yet evil politician, who is frequently several steps ahead of the average bear. So keeping this in mind realize that his plan is about empowering himself. if he is able to discredit Republican, Democrats and Congress all the better. After the public becomes outraged Obama will waltz in front of the press and say “I am disappointed and disturbed. You elected me to fix these problems and I need more power. Don’t be frightened because you can trust me and I am here to help. In fact think about giving me power for life because these other fools can’t be trusted to bring the CHANGE we need.”
Now maybe he won’t say the part about being made king this week or month but realize this is exactly where it is going. The more he points out the corruption in Congress the more the people will turn to him for answers. Remember that most foolish Americans love him.
Aaron, I have posted in the past about how all Obama manifestations, such as this one, are merely planned and plotted machinations to distract us.
They seem to be working. We allow ourselves to buy into the idea that “something is going to happen”, while at the same time other things, such as looting the treasury in behalf of Wall-Street, “actually are happening behind the scenes”, unnoticed.
Your post is right on target!
We are witnessing, and will pay a great price for, masterful prestidigitation, unlike any we have ever seen.
i understand that our troops are waterboarded as
part of their basic training
That news to me. When I was in the service, no such thing occurred. We were exposed to tear gas on occasion, however.
Sorry AGII, I was spammed agian. I like posting on your threads because you seem to be the only one that adresses this problem. Many thanks for your efforts!
One of my political heroes is Gerald Ford. He pardoned Richard Nixon, and in doing so ruined his own political career. But Gerald Ford was an American first, and history has shown his actions to be exactly what this nation needed at that time in history to allow us to heal. Gerald Ford was a uniter, not a divider. Could Barack Obama ever find in himself the quiet courage of that man from Michigan?
Right now we are more divided as a nation than I can remember as long as I have been following politics. And there is a brutal nastiness coming from the far left that astounds me. Could anyone here tell me how a prolonged witch hunt will help us heal as a nation, help us become more united to face the myriad challenges on our doorstep? Barack Obama needs to unite us by looking forward, not divide us by allowing our time and energy as a nation be directed to the past, a past which, lest we all forget, would not even be an issue without the horrific events of 9/11.
I never forgave Gerald Ford for pardoning Nixon, and to this very day, I will argue that what he did was wrong, wrong, wrong.
Did Ford save the country by pardoning Bush? Give me a break. No he didn’t. He simply pardoned a criminal.
What is wrong with people that they believe every lie they’re told by media and government?!
For God’s sake, get a brain.
When we don’t hold politicians accountable for crimes they commit, we tell the American people not to trust government. That’s not patriotic; it undermines our faith in American ideals, our trust in the Constitution.
Argghh..I can’t believe there are people who still just ingest the kool-aid anytime the government hands it to them…
Stop it.
The problem is that many us rightly believe that only a select few will go down for the water boarding incidents. Obama has already stated he doesnt want to go after those in office(meaning the Democrats).
Obama is screwing with our nation, and if he doesnt wise up he will destroy our country.
To add to your confusion, ConfusedAmerican, if Obama were only to prosecute those out of office, i.e., members of the previous administration, while neglecting to prosecute those currently in office, i.e., congressional democrats, who are equally culpable, then the prosecutions themselves are unconstitutional under Supreme Court decisions holding selective prosecution for violation of laws to be violative of equal protection under the 14th Amendment.
Sorry, I think I have a brain, and I am just as entitled to my opinion as you are. If accountability were the real motivation behind this cry for investigations, then we should already have independent investigations started into Freddie and Fannie, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, ACORN, and a hundred more scenarios with members of Congress acting for their own benefit at the expense of the taxpayer. “Accountability” is the buzz word, but all I see are hate and revengeful rhetoric that threaten not only the trust of our intelligence agencies but our national security as well. Revenge is a selfish master, for in the end she consumes not only the target of the revenge, but the instigator as well. I believe this nation deserves better than that.
Very good one Babs
please stop attacking people for their personal opinions. there was nothing offensive about Babs comment that should justify telling her to *get a brain*.
personally I think what Nixon did pales in comparison to what the DNC/Obama campaign did this past primary.
You’re making an assumption that 0bama wants what’s best for this country. To date, all of his actions are inconsistent with that assumption, and I would not be so complacent and trusting about his motivations. He’s no damn good for this country, and I don’t think he wants to be.
Before voting for McCain, Gerald Ford was the last Republican I voted for. He was a decent, honest man who was doing his best to enable all of us to move past the utter rancor. But I will disagree with you on one thing: it isn’t just the left that can be nasty. I have been against the Iraq fiasco since before our Unholy One in Chief was. I was roundly criticized for being un-American, even though I served my country, because I disagreed with a bone-headed policy. Right-wing kooks are just as brutally nasty as left-wing kooks, just so we’re on the same page.
We really need to deal with this, and Obama doesn’t want to deal with this. He’s such an elitist. He wants to protect the powerful because he’s now one of them.
But we really need to DEAL WITH THIS. We need to hold hearings as a start; we need the House and the Senate to hold public hearings about what happened, who ordered it, what our history has been.
Then, from there we can see if the people are interested in knowing more. I predict they will not be; but I hope I am surprised.
The thing is, Obama cannot avoid dealing with it. I will never accept that this country should just ignore and deny what we did regarding “torture.” And, I want people to be held accountable, if only in a public hearing that the public can know who they are, what they did, and we can have some sort of public debate about it.
Obama better grow a pair and decide to examine what we’ve done; if he doesn’t, he’s a pawn of the right-wing.
And, then the left will hate him like they hate Bush.
You know if we dont stop trying to get paybacks from our past instead of learning from our past, our country is going to destroy itself.
It seems everyone around has some type of gripe about what America has done to them(whether gender, or race wise)in the past. There are so many people just waiting to file a lawsuit for what happened to their forefathers.
Come on people America has had its problems and not been a great nation, especially in war time.
But we need to move on and learn from our mistakes instead trying to get pay back for what happened in the past.
I dont really believe that its the waterboarding issue that Obama is really concerned about.
To tell you the truth Im not really sure what he is after.
Is Obama trying to divert our focus while his administration pulls another crazy stunt.
Or is Obama trying get payback by smashing the previous administration and the Republicans.
Until the war was totally over this was one can of worms that should have been left sealed.
not been a great nation,Sorry meant to say —- not been the greatest nation at times especially during war.
the United States has been defending liberty all over the world not just here, for DECADES. War is not nice but not defending freedom is worse.
How does one learn from the past if the past is never discussed as we are doing here? Questioning authority, any authority, is a good thing. You have been questioning That One and I concur with your questioning. However, there is a dire need to go beyond mere ideology and party affiliation and concentrate on the abuses of the law by all parties involved. This can of worms is much bigger than than meets the eye.
Obama and the Dems are backpeddling now because they know their ass would be in the frying pan right along w Bush and Co. They’re a bunch of FUCKING HYPOCRITES.
I concur with you on this one. They should be worried and this investigation ought to go on using non-governmental people of good character. This needs to be aired in its entirety.
I think that is the biggest problem the Democrats are just as guilty. Obama now realizes what he has done. If this is done fairly probably most of DC will be under the proverbial Obama bus.
So be it. I don’t care who was involved only that they were involved. Time to clean house, as it were, irrespective of party affiliation or ideology.
I seriously doubt the majority of liberals really give a rats ass about terrorists being subjected to “harsh” interrogation. More likely prosecuting Bush and Co. would just be a feather in their cap of hate for the right.
You got that one right Tom.
Before Obama can be called a true leader, he needs to allow a new and true investigation into the 9/11 hoax. Until then, he’s just another puppet, just like Bush was. We have been so brainwashed that we now vote for the personality we like best instead of who would do the best for our country.
Senior Officials have their own web site and are demanding a new investigation. Please visit and decide for yourselves. It doesn’t matter if you are a liberal or conservative, just be an American first!
http://patriotsquestion911.com/media.html
Sorry I gave the incorrect page to the link. Here’s the right one.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
WTF is wrong with you???? You want to believe 9/11 was a HOAX???? Are you some f-ing retard???? Born of Obama loins?????
9/11 was not a HOAX. Were some things covered up? Maybe, but a HOAX it certainly was not.
Sorry, didn’t realize your a republican and so far up GW’s ass. I’m sure it’s pretty dark up there so it’s hard to see the light.
In my opinion, both party’s are corrupt.
Im really not sure what is going on with this 9/11 hoax thing. But I dont think it is even close to being true from what I have seen and read. There are some very interesting questions but that is about where it ends.
America we need to wake up, MOVE FORWARD or we will destroy our country.
another Kool Aid drinker arrives to defend criticism of Obama and the Dimwits. Where were you on 9/11 dumbass? No doubt playing w yourself in the basement of mommy and daddy’s in between playing w video games.
BFB: I opposed the Iraq War as well, and was a target for all of my Republican friends, but no way were they as mean-spirited and as downright nasty as my own party has been to me, a Hillary Clinton supporter, since the primaries. Maybe it’s just my personal experience, and I speak for no one but myself, but as much as I used to get frustrated with the Republicans, there were no personal attacks, no touting the party line without what to them were facts to support their views, and I never had to fear that my car would be trashed when it sported an anti-war bumper sticker. Maybe we’re not on the same page here, but at least we’re reading the same book.
I understand and sympathize. I still have my McCain/Palin bumper sticker on my Explorer here in East Tennessee–and no one has touched it (yet). It was quite different when I was living in southeastern Washington State where Bush was God and the rest of us were fodder. We are on the same page, Babs. Sorry you had such a difficult time.
Ferd
You know with most Presidents first 100 days or so more positive usually happens in the nation than negative. Most of the time both parties are working together to understand each others aims.
H3LL Obama doesnt even have all the administrative offices filled (mostly due to his bad choices). I have a feeling that Obama is going to go down as the President with the worse 100 days in history.
The hundred days question is another example of political and media spin. It is also about as relevant to anything important as last weeks newspaper.
First of all, I campaigned for Hillary, voted for her and cried when she ended her run and joined Obama. Then out of anger I voted for McCain/Palin. Maybe hoax is the wrong word, those buildings did come down and 3000 people were killed on 9/11. But those 3 building did not come down due to planes or fire, it was a controlled demolition, which would have taken weeks to set up for buildings that size. These are no longer conspiracy theorist but professionals, Architects, Engineers, Scientist, Pilots, Fire Fighters… Obama is just a continuation of Bush and Democrats and Republicans are both corrupt! Unless you investigate it yourselves, you will not see anything but propaganda on mainstream media. Visit the web site and then tell me I’m wrong.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Not sure why you are focused so much on Obama. He really has nothing to do with who may get prosecuted. It is a leagal matter and up to the DOJ.
Should be as simple as that. If someone broke the law they should be prosecuted. Let the chips fall where they may.
Bush on down. I don’t think the democrats where writing the policy. They may have had some kind of knowledge of something, although that is highly debatable, but it was not there bag.
We need this to prevent this from happening again and to bring some dignity back to this country.
did you bother to read either of my posts on this?
Last week Fienstein’s husband got a huge contract worth 25 billion. That is one of the cover-ups the Barraf administration is accomplishing. While the MSM is talking about his first 100 days as TOTUS.
O Obama
B BIG
A American
M Mistake
A Again
Good post Sara and great cartoon……
Excellent,An interesting read on it.
People need to remember the days and weeks after 911. I sure remember the flags hanging off all the cars. The calls from most Americans to “get the Muslims”. It was one of the most deranged group think episodes I had ever experienced. We didn’t even know what had actually happened, yet, everyone was chanting for payback against someone, anyone. Remember when we invaded Iraq. Remember the embeds, all the reporters riding Humvees reporting as if they too were soldiers fighting on the battlefield and we all watched realtime as if it was just a video game. The media sure did a great job of cheerleading then. But lets go way back to one of Obama’s heroes. That would be Ronald Reagan and the Iran Contra mess. I remember that too. Congress had specifically banned the US from selling weapons to South and Central America by refusing to fund it (the power of the purse), so Reagan sold arms to Iran. They then took the proceeds from those arm sales and gave the money to the Guerillas in Central America to help overthrow their Democratically elected government. There were no hearings. Immunity was granted to everyone. We had provided Iran with arms yet Reagan was considered the greatest. Just ask Obama.
The biggest problem with generalizing is that it’s stupid.
Really stupid.
Oh. Right. That’s just what you do.
Not everyone here believes, behaves and manifests what you think.
Deal with that.
You are aware that Reagan prosecuted a Texas sheriff and 3 deputies for waterboarding to extract confessions?
http://www.alternet.org/rights/138600/reagan%27s_doj_prosecuted_texas_sheriff_for_waterboarding_prisoners/
[...] of my fellow writers at No Quarter have taken this on, including none other than Larry Johnson, American Girl In Italy, and SusanUnPC, to name a few. No need for me to get into that with such stellar writers already [...]
Please folks - this is a must read - a very significant article - just out today by John Bolton
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/05/AR2009050502884.html
snip 1 - President Obama’s passivity before the threatened foreign prosecution of Bush administration officials achieves by inaction what he fears doing directly. This may be smart politics within the Democratic Party, but it risks grave long-term damage to the United States. Ironically, it could also come back to bite future Obama administration alumni, including the president, for their current policies in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.
snip 2 Spanish Magistrate Baltasar Garzón opened a formal investigation last week of six Bush administration lawyers for their roles in advising on interrogation techniques. Garzón did so over the objections of Spain’s attorney general, as he did in 1998 in proceeding against former Chilean president Augusto Pinochet. Under Spain’s inquisitorial judicial system, Garzón is essentially unaccountable, whatever the views of Spain’s elected government.
Snip 3 - Asked repeatedly about Garzón’s investigation, the State Department has said only that it is a matter for the Spanish judicial system. Last week, Attorney General Eric Holder went further, implying that the Obama administration could cooperate. “Obviously, we would look at any request that would come from a court in any country and see how and whether we should comply with it,” Holder said. This is deeply troubling. Obama appears to be following the John Ehrlichman approach, letting the U.S. lawyers “twist slowly, slowly in the wind.”
Snip 4 - Although the six lawyers are in a precarious position, they are only intermediate targets. The real targets are President Bush and his most senior advisers, and the real aim is to intimidate U.S. officials into refraining from making hard but necessary decisions to protect our national security.