Bible Thumping Torture Lovers?
By Pat Racimora on May 2, 2009 at 11:05 AM in Christianity, Current Affairs, Religion, Torture
“Church Goers Like Torture More!”
“The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists.”
“Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful.”
That’s what the headlines blare, based on a recent survey conducted by the research arm of the prestigious Pew Charitable Trust.
To briskly summarize, frequent churchgoers and White evangelicals, followed fairly closely by White non-Hispanic Catholics approve of the use of torture more than do mainstream Protestants, those unaffiliated with any religion, and non-churchgoers.
If we stop right here and try to figure out why these results are as they are (setting aside for the moment Eastan McNeal’s recent excellent post about the survey’s methodology), the mind runs happily amok with what feels like obvious reasons. My friends and I came up with a few:
“Maybe the Bible-thumping “torture-lovers” see certainty and intolerance as two sides of the same coin. It’s easier to dehumanize people who exhibit the attributes that are the object of the intolerance.”
“God and Country are one in the same to religious fundamentalists, so ‘not country’ is heathen and the welfare of such people is not any concern.”
“If you’re a fundamentalist of any religion (or ism) there is pure unadulterated and unquestioned Truth. Once you’ve got that on your side you no longer need to question things as much.”
“Anything designated as evil does not need to be treated as a human.”
“The more conservative active church goers are more likely to have a good/evil, black/white, us/them, heaven/hell, saved/damned mindset. Compassion can then be eliminated towards those on the wrong side of the comparisons.”
But, I dared to look a little deeper at some other Pew survey work. It turns out that almost 50% of Americans believe that torture is acceptable “often” or “sometimes,” and that view has not changed significantly over the last couple of years. Republicans and Independents approve of torture more than do Democrats. Differences among men and women are small, as are differences regarding age and educational level. However a greater number of older people (33%) than younger people (23%) say torture should never be used. (Go seniors!)
But here is the bottom line. In the Pew survey, plenty of Democrats, mainstream Protestants, infrequent churchgoers, and religiously unaffiliated people DO believe torture is acceptable, and plenty of Evangelical Christians, non-Hispanic Catholics and frequent churchgoers are NOT in favor of torture. See the data for yourselves:
So, there is statistical significance and there is practical significance. In very practical terms, that means that if you meet up with an Evangelical Christian who attends church frequently or a Unitarian who attends services once a year, you might go with the probabilities and guess their view on torture correctly. And you will also be wrong often enough.
Your take?
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Torture is much better than roadside bombs (terrorists) used against us!
That doesn’t mean that willingness or unwillingness to do one has any relationship whatsoever to the frequency of the other. It isn’t an “either A or B” situation.
An interesting observation.
You change your tune depending on the subject matter at hand and how NQ and associated commenter respond to such. In short, you are a contradictory little snip who wasn’t properly potty-trained, hence the anal-retentive extremes to which you aspire (and succeed).
For the last time, comic-strip wannabe, go away.
BFB–exactly who are you trashing and why?
Zippy the obamabot, who makes his spends all his waking hours making snide remarks to NQ regulars.
Ah, Zippy.
BTW, amazing illustration, Pat.
I might also state, for the record, that I do not agree with the commenter to which Zippy responded and have myself, been taken to task regularly for my own outspoken insistence that torture is both immoral for any reason and always illegal.
Benjamin Franklin Berfle, yup that A B stuff was real Obot stardust.
A wonderful moment of Rumsfieldian disonance was enjoyed by all.
Known-knowns, known unknowns, unknown knowns and unknown unknowns-makes my head spin. Hell, I am so sick of that comic-strip cretin (and since I am dead-set against torturing my fellow human beings), I would gladly volunteer myself for a good water-boarding, if only just to rid this website of him and the torture he perpetrates every time he comments.
I don’t even know what that means!
Pat, your ‘toon is one of your most effective: the beautiful irradiated heavenly blue background contrasts ironically with the flat black despair of the torture victim. The stance of the victim, helpless pleading arms outstretched, associates him with Christ on the crucifix:
The radiant and serene blue star centered on the crucifix is juxtaposed with the black hole of despair of the torture victim, which seems to consume all light: very ironic and effective. A work of art, indeed!
Thank you oowawa. You are too kind.
I can’t say that I was thinking in words when I created this image. It just sprung from deep feelings. Others, of course, have seen the parallel between the now-classic torture victim photo and the crucifixion–such a profound visual irony. I just had to try my own take on it.
To stop torture! our military should start… take NO PRISONERS ALIVE!
As apposed to what, exactly? Taking dead prisoners?
Unlike you, the military lives by and follows the rules. There ought to be clue for you there, somewhere, goob.
But, but, but WhiteHead…
No due process (not everyone rounded up is guilty) and setting up a precedent for what “they” will do to our people?
Can’t buy that one!
The PEW study raises more questions than answers. As with all surveys, I can’t help but wonder about the type of people who actually bother to respond anymore. I also wonder if everyone had the same definition of torture in mind (would these respondents advocate breaking bones and cutting off limbs, would they be supportive of the general abuse of prisoners).
Without additional information any conclusions drawn from this study are questionable at best. Many evangelicals vote for Republicans, and perhaps they’ve just bought the Republican spin regarding the effectiveness of torture (or enhanced interrogation techniques).
As for the obvious reasons listed above, they seem to be based on very negative stereotypes (and many would seem to be in direct conflict with Biblical teachings).
I am not a church going anything…
I am an agnostic to be precise…
yesterday, I was watching some bs over this to torture or not to torture argument on FOX
a proponent of using “torture” mentioned, now that TOTUS has declared waterboarding torture, that it could not be carried out legally unless TOTUS gave his ok..and that now would take a long time to use such means in “emergency cases” because now they would have to get this presidential approval..
The pundit that did not agree with using torture to extract information..mentioned that indeed, the approval to use torture could be attained relatively fast in case of urgency…
SO…if torture is so bad that it should never be used…why are there situations when the anti torture clan would agree that it should be used…
This whole hypocritical argument reminds me of
the [non-health related] veggies that have leather shoes, leather couches..
the anti-cruelty folks that eat meat like it’s going out of style
the peace niks that use violence to attain their means
The all-accepting churches that decry homosexuality..
the all-american socialists, who don 540 dollar tennis shoes to volunteer at a food back…
The hypocrysy is astounding, but somehow..we all just go along with the madness without question…
This rampant metrosexuality that has so pervasively and fashionably overtaken this country…does not really bode well for our national security…
Theory always works very well on paper…but it hits a lot of snags when reality gets thrown into the fray..
We will live to regret these popular but inanely ridiculous decisions being made by this administration, sooner rather than later..
that should read food BANK
A well thought out response. The Bible is used as a weapon to justify just about anything under the sun, so this survey is no surprise. Why are people so surprised at what they bought when voting for Obama?
I agree with oowawa, Pat–that is a striking image–with the hooded figure reconfigured against the cross in a Christ-like stance. Powerful.
As for the stats, I said last night over on Eastan’s thread, I no longer take these endless political polls seriously. They’ve become little more than propaganda tools to sway us in one direction or the other, rather than tools of information.
I think we have to rely on our own information gathering, research and gut instincts.
Nice, Pat.
There’s a lesson here about human nature that we all, religious or not, can learn from. I just wish I could figure out what it is …
Well, as I’ve said before, I am still totally disgusted that any person in this day thinks torure is acceptable. I don’t care about the behavior of the terrorists. They seem to be living in the Middle Ages. But good grief, American Christians, American people of any other religious persuasion, and American agnostics and atheists should ALL say torture is unacceptable.
It’s very hard when your opponent takes the low road not to be pulled down to their level.
People who say they are Christians and then also say they agree with torture of any kind are not Christians in my mind no matter what they may think about their moral righteousness.
I agree with Eastan’s suspician that this is an interpretation of the results based more on an attempt to discredit right-wing neocons than on the actual statistical results.
in jesus blessy name
“Bible thumpers….” ????
“Torture Lovers….” ????
“Like Torture….” ????
Nice headlines.
So much for reasoned discussion.
Is Olbermann writing leads for this place now?
Moron. Did you read the goddamn piece? Pat was making exactly the opposite point–i.e., that religious folks were being unfairly smeared by that poll. Jesus Christ!!! (irony intended) are you that much of a blind ideologue that you can’t read and comprehend simple English?
This Hispanic Catholic does not believe in torture of any kind! They didnt ask me or my church. Why are those who attend church on a regular basis called bible thumpers, simply because we believe in God?
I don’t generally tell anyone what to do or how to do it, but I don’t think calling names at those with a religious belief is the answer.
Just another in the long list of what the White House will do to pit one American against another.
Read the whole article Indiedog! Those are the headlines from CNN and other media. The article goes to another place…
Those are the headlines from CNN
Which makes Mr. Johnson point above even more painful.
Pat, this toon is breath-taking…
As are these statistics. I would be one of those Unitarians who is opposed to torture, for the record…
What is surprising abt the rest of the states is the high percentage for whom torture is even SOMETIMES acceptable in light of MANY mainline Protestant denominations adamant opposition against the war in Iraq. Heck, even the POPE came out against the war. Extrapolating from that, one would think the members of those denominations would be opposed to torture, as well. But, apparently, no.
Wow.
Thank you for this visualization - your work continues to amaze me.
Pat, well written. You haven’t forced your bias on any of your readers, and you present an accurate and fair analysis.
Pat, Great image. Should appear other places also.
We do not torture. Waterboarding is like surfing.
These people are the “enemy” and giving them extra water to drink through a towel (make it cleaner) is fine. They don’t deserve to live, any of them we capture for any reason. That is what some church-goers are thinking. The captive does not believe in our God. It doesn’t matter if the information given up by the captive is total BS, the harsh tactics proved that the captive is a Terrorist.
From:
http://votersforpeace.us/press/index.php?itemid=1458
Tell me, why can’t we release them, if we can’t try them? Can you imagine being there for 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years. That in itself is TORTURE.
Excellent post Pat.
And, you show well, can they really make that claim for a 1 percent difference in the poll questioning….let alone that even by a 3 percent difference in the NEGATIVE did WEEKLY church goers find it often justified.
Looks like Pew used the White House Press Corp to do some of that “would destroy your reputation” stuff we’re hearing from the Ba Da Bing crew normally called our White House.
Means and ends
The torture debate often centers on the extent to which the methods are effective — do they bring results. It’s the age-old question of the end justifying the means.
That’s completely irrelevant. I could solve my financial problems by robbing a bank (if it has any money). But that doesn’t make it excusable.
But here’s the real point. In the Watergate days, when there was also much discussion about ends and means, a Newsweek pundit said that in this country, the means ARE the ends. That is, how we do things and how we make decisions are often more important than what we do and what we decide. It appears that the Founding Fathers were very much into process.
Stan Davis
Lakewood, CO
Great point, Stan. I’ll remember that.
I can’t say that I was thinking in words when I created this image.
If I saw this at the NY Met, and it was one of those paintings that took up the whole wall, I would sit on the bench until closing time, trying to assimilate the deep feelings you express.
A Nagual in a tonal world.
Amazing Pat, thanks.
What a profound graphic. Horrible and beautiful at the same time. Thanks for sharing your talent Pat.
This is probably what most bible thumpers are thinking today and since Obama got into office.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnJV_SVY_uY
Awesome Pat!
That is truly - Powerful Art!
You really should see if a graphic artist could help you transfer your toons to a print medium. There has to be a way to capture the intensity of color.
Thank you for sharing you creative musings with us.
The irony of it all is, wasn’t what Jesus went thru, torture?
If i wanted to be snide I would say it’s becuase christians believe in evil. Where as non Chritisans believe in relative morality. THere fore the christian has no delusions about coddling warped delusional evil people who want to kill you.
However I don’t approve of torture. And while Christianity was also used to justify the slavory of blacks and the the taking of land away fro mnative americans I don’t lump us all into the same bunch. Real chrisitans are appauld by the mistreatment of other people. THe only reason i have not gotten excited about Obama and the torture memo’s because i don’t like mind games, and i think ti’s more important to keep my eyes on Obama than to chase my tail like he wants me to do. I loath manipulation and if means waiting another four years to get bush. Oh well, the current president can do alot more damage than the one that just left office. So i have not consenting to this I am just delaying gratification until I can catch a much bigger tyrant. Bush is dessert Obama is the main course.
MUSLIMS: ‘WE DO THAT ON FIRST DATES’
by Ann Coulter
April 29, 2009
For the interested that want to know what real modern day torture was during WWII up to 1948, Google “London Cage.” Gitmo was liken to Club Med. Get a life folks!
Right below is an article that was written in 1971 during the Vietnam war by someone who I would consider to be a sincere and consistent person on the religious right who proposed an “Intensive Study” of the war issue. Unfortunately he seems to be in the vast minority of that group of people!
I think that the questions about war that he asks to people on the religious right are valid and the real answer to them in my opinion is that most of these religious people who support war and torture have virtually no interest in seriously studying these issues. That is why many of these people right now try to throw the war issue “in the category of opinion” in order to try and make it go away:
http://truthmagazine.com/archives/volume36/GOT036010.html
Guardian of Truth XXXVI: 1, pp. 18-20
January 2, 1992
Just Like the War Question
Mike Willis
Danville, Indiana
“One may interpret ‘Thou shalt not kill’ to mean that man cannot participate in the military, especially in time of war. Those who participate in the military or war, from this point of view, are guilty of murder. We tolerate these differences regarding ‘murder,’ placing them in the category of opinion…”
That is being done because the war and torture issues are obviously not convenient to talk about because that would step on too many toes and people on the religious right studying these issues in a serious manner where people may need to change their political views to be consistent would violate their unspoken tradition of unconditionally supporting Republican candidates because of abortion and homosexuality regardless of anything else that they do on other important issues and regardless of how Republicans like Bush and Cheney personally behave:
http://truthmagazine.com/archives/volume15/TM015726.html?PHPSESSID=4cf10b52c8d23c80c864d1284bc576ad
Can We Understand: the Bible Alike?
Ralph Edmunson
Searcy, Arkansas
There is a wide variation in the teaching and practice among churches of Christ on the “war question.” This goes from the position of unrestricted participation on the part of Christians in both the military and the police to the opposite extreme of complete aloofness from any participation in government. Some say that a Christian should not even vote, and that it would be wrong for a Christian to be an elected official; others urge that there ought to be more Christians in politics and in positions of authority. Some will teach that capital punishment ought to be abolished on the supposition that it is against God’s win; others argue that God requires capital punishment and the one administering it are carrying out God’s will; while still others concede that capital punishment is “ordained of God,” but that Christians are not scripturally authorized to administer it.
Some, who would “turn the other cheek” in personal disputes will argue that unless freedom is upheld-militarily, if necessary then our right to be Christian win be jeopardized; others demand that Christians not fight for freedom.
This question has been discussed as far back as the days of the Campbells. It was a controversy before, during, and after the civil war. “Great” men have been in defense of both sides.
The general attitude of the “brotherhood” is and has been that it is regrettable that there is a difference of “opinion” on this subject, but that no harm is done as, long as no one presses his “opinion” to the point of dividing the brotherhood. In effect, we have said that it does not make any difference what one believes as long as he is sincere and doe’s not try to convert any one else to his position; that, since it is a “controversial” subject, let each one believe and practice what he conceives the Bible to say to him, but, do not advocate his beliefs publicly, lest he “split the church.”
We have advocated that there must be unity in “matters of faith.” But it seems that we have discovered another realm — “opinion” — and several Bible passages are wrested and perverted in attempts to make it appear that the Lord bestows his blessings on division (couched in the statement that each one has the right to his own “opinion” on “indifferent” matters).
Can We Understand The Bible Alike?
We are fond of Preaching sermons based on the question: “Can we all understand the Bible alike?” We challenge denominational adherents to “search the’ scriptures.” We rightly point out that we could be united if we would “just take what the Bible says” On baptism, one church, music in worship, Lord’s Supper, et al.
Why have we never thought to apply this same principle to our own items of disunity? If we “just take what the Bible says” on the “war question,” wouldn’t we be united on this subject? If not, why not? Is the teaching of the Bible on the relationship of Christians’ to the civil government so vague and unclear that Christians “cannot all understand it alike”? Does the same Bible teach one Christian to kill and another not to?
Proposed Intensive Study
We are proposing a monthly publication devoted exclusively to investigating and discussing this particular question in all its phases. There have been occasional short periods of discussion, but nothing extensive and intensive enough to really examine all the arguments in depth. We propose this publication to continue this exhaustive investigation until we “all speak the same thing”; until “there be no divisions among us”; and until we “be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
We want to hear from all who would like to see such a discussion. If we can obtain at least 1000 commitments to subscribe, we will proceed with our plans. Send your name and address, and when we obtain enough commitments, we will produce the first number.
In the meantime, we want writers to send in articles on both sides and on all phases of the controversy. It is our purpose to produce a balanced publication-not favoring one side or the other-in order to examine all the evidence so as to arrive at the truth. Send your articles and commitment to subscribe to Ralph Edmunson, 900 W. McRae, Searcy, Ark. 72143.
Let us hear from you.
TRUTH MAGAZINE, XV: 44, pp. 38-39
September 16, 1971
Very few people on the religious right I know who I ask these questions to will seriously try to answer them. These people will not apply the same purity standards to themselves that they apply to other religious people who they disagree with!
Mitch Dworkin
Dallas, Texas
Im Catholic and seek peace at all times. But I have to admit that after 9/11 and Danny Pearl etc I think putting a bug in a cell or pouring water on someone or making someone pose nude is alot less objectionable than it used to be. I dont want any of that to ever happen again. If these acts helped save lives- go for it.
Wow!! Striking artwork, Pat!! Like a color still from a Carl Theodore Dreyer film. . .
I think torture for any reason is wrong. Period.