I think torture for any reason is wrong. Period.

I think that the questions about war that he asks to people on the religious right are valid and the real answer to them in my opinion is that most of these religious people who support war and torture have virtually no interest in seriously studying these issues. That is why many of these people right now try to throw the war issue “in the category of opinion” in order to try and make it go away:

http://truthmagazine.com/archives/volume36/GOT036010.html

Guardian of Truth XXXVI: 1, pp. 18-20
January 2, 1992

Just Like the War Question

Mike Willis
Danville, Indiana

“One may interpret ‘Thou shalt not kill’ to mean that man cannot participate in the military, especially in time of war. Those who participate in the military or war, from this point of view, are guilty of murder. We tolerate these differences regarding ‘murder,’ placing them in the category of opinion…”

That is being done because the war and torture issues are obviously not convenient to talk about because that would step on too many toes and people on the religious right studying these issues in a serious manner where people may need to change their political views to be consistent would violate their unspoken tradition of unconditionally supporting Republican candidates because of abortion and homosexuality regardless of anything else that they do on other important issues and regardless of how Republicans like Bush and Cheney personally behave:

http://truthmagazine.com/archives/volume15/TM015726.html?PHPSESSID=4cf10b52c8d23c80c864d1284bc576ad

Can We Understand: the Bible Alike?

Ralph Edmunson
Searcy, Arkansas

There is a wide variation in the teaching and practice among churches of Christ on the “war question.” This goes from the position of unrestricted participation on the part of Christians in both the military and the police to the opposite extreme of complete aloofness from any participation in government. Some say that a Christian should not even vote, and that it would be wrong for a Christian to be an elected official; others urge that there ought to be more Christians in politics and in positions of authority. Some will teach that capital punishment ought to be abolished on the supposition that it is against God’s win; others argue that God requires capital punishment and the one administering it are carrying out God’s will; while still others concede that capital punishment is “ordained of God,” but that Christians are not scripturally authorized to administer it.

Some, who would “turn the other cheek” in personal disputes will argue that unless freedom is upheld-militarily, if necessary then our right to be Christian win be jeopardized; others demand that Christians not fight for freedom.

This question has been discussed as far back as the days of the Campbells. It was a controversy before, during, and after the civil war. “Great” men have been in defense of both sides.

The general attitude of the “brotherhood” is and has been that it is regrettable that there is a difference of “opinion” on this subject, but that no harm is done as, long as no one presses his “opinion” to the point of dividing the brotherhood. In effect, we have said that it does not make any difference what one believes as long as he is sincere and doe’s not try to convert any one else to his position; that, since it is a “controversial” subject, let each one believe and practice what he conceives the Bible to say to him, but, do not advocate his beliefs publicly, lest he “split the church.”

We have advocated that there must be unity in “matters of faith.” But it seems that we have discovered another realm — “opinion” — and several Bible passages are wrested and perverted in attempts to make it appear that the Lord bestows his blessings on division (couched in the statement that each one has the right to his own “opinion” on “indifferent” matters).

Can We Understand The Bible Alike?

We are fond of Preaching sermons based on the question: “Can we all understand the Bible alike?” We challenge denominational adherents to “search the’ scriptures.” We rightly point out that we could be united if we would “just take what the Bible says” On baptism, one church, music in worship, Lord’s Supper, et al.

Why have we never thought to apply this same principle to our own items of disunity? If we “just take what the Bible says” on the “war question,” wouldn’t we be united on this subject? If not, why not? Is the teaching of the Bible on the relationship of Christians’ to the civil government so vague and unclear that Christians “cannot all understand it alike”? Does the same Bible teach one Christian to kill and another not to?

Proposed Intensive Study

We are proposing a monthly publication devoted exclusively to investigating and discussing this particular question in all its phases. There have been occasional short periods of discussion, but nothing extensive and intensive enough to really examine all the arguments in depth. We propose this publication to continue this exhaustive investigation until we “all speak the same thing”; until “there be no divisions among us”; and until we “be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”

We want to hear from all who would like to see such a discussion. If we can obtain at least 1000 commitments to subscribe, we will proceed with our plans. Send your name and address, and when we obtain enough commitments, we will produce the first number.

In the meantime, we want writers to send in articles on both sides and on all phases of the controversy. It is our purpose to produce a balanced publication-not favoring one side or the other-in order to examine all the evidence so as to arrive at the truth. Send your articles and commitment to subscribe to Ralph Edmunson, 900 W. McRae, Searcy, Ark. 72143.

Let us hear from you.

TRUTH MAGAZINE, XV: 44, pp. 38-39
September 16, 1971

Very few people on the religious right I know who I ask these questions to will seriously try to answer them. These people will not apply the same purity standards to themselves that they apply to other religious people who they disagree with!

Mitch Dworkin
Dallas, Texas

(in part)
“Only three terrorists — who could have been shot — were waterboarded. This is not nearly as bad as “snowboarding,” which is known to cause massive buttocks pain and results in approximately 10 deaths per year.”

“Normal human beings — especially those who grew up with my older brother, Jimmy — can’t read the interrogation memos without laughing.”

“At Al-Jazeera, they don’t believe these interrogation memos are for real. Muslims look at them and say: THIS IS ALL THEY’RE DOING? We do that for practice. We do that to our friends.”

For the interested that want to know what real modern day torture was during WWII up to 1948, Google “London Cage.” Gitmo was liken to Club Med. Get a life folks!

However I don’t approve of torture. And while Christianity was also used to justify the slavory of blacks and the the taking of land away fro mnative americans I don’t lump us all into the same bunch. Real chrisitans are appauld by the mistreatment of other people. THe only reason i have not gotten excited about Obama and the torture memo’s because i don’t like mind games, and i think ti’s more important to keep my eyes on Obama than to chase my tail like he wants me to do. I loath manipulation and if means waiting another four years to get bush. Oh well, the current president can do alot more damage than the one that just left office. So i have not consenting to this I am just delaying gratification until I can catch a much bigger tyrant. Bush is dessert Obama is the main course.

in this country, the means ARE the ends. That is, how we do things and how we make decisions are often more important than what we do and what we decide.

Great point, Stan. I’ll remember that.

That is truly – Powerful Art!

You really should see if a graphic artist could help you transfer your toons to a print medium. There has to be a way to capture the intensity of color.

Thank you for sharing you creative musings with us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnJV_SVY_uY

take NO PRISONERS ALIVE

As apposed to what, exactly? Taking dead prisoners?

Unlike you, the military lives by and follows the rules. There ought to be clue for you there, somewhere, goob.

Which makes Mr. Johnson point above even more painful.

A wonderful moment of Rumsfieldian disonance was enjoyed by all.

BTW, amazing illustration, Pat.