The Truth About Richard Bruce Cheney
By Col Lawrence B Wilkerson on May 16, 2009 at 12:35 AM in 9/11, Al Qaeda, Bush administration, Bush/Cheney, Terrorism, Torture
Bumped up from early Friday morning.
Editor: Reprinted in full with Col. Wilkerson’s and Steve Clemons’ express permission from The Washington Note.
This is a guest post exclusive to The Washington Note by Col. Lawrence B. Wilkerson, who is former chief of staff of the Department of State during the term of Secretary of State Colin Powell. Lawrence Wilkerson is also Pamela Harriman Visiting Professor at the College of William & Mary.
Last night I was on Rachel Maddow’s show on MSNBC at the top of the hour. But before I came on, through the earpiece I listened to the five minutes that Rachel sketched as a lead-in. Most of it was videotape from the last few days of former Vice President Dick Cheney extolling the virtues of harsh interrogation, torture, and his leadership. I had heard some of it earlier of course but not all of it and not in such a tightly-packed package.
Let’s just say that five minutes of the Sith Lord was stunningly inaccurate.
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So, when I got home last night, I thought long and hard about what I knew at this point in my investigations with respect to the former VP’s office. Here it is.
First, more Americans were killed by terrorists on Cheney’s watch than on any other leader’s watch in US history. So his constant claim that no Americans were killed in the “seven and a half years” after 9/11 of his vice presidency takes on a new texture when one considers that fact. And it is a fact.
There was absolutely no policy priority attributed to al-Qa’ida by the Cheney-Bush administration in the months before 9/11. Counterterrorism czar Dick Clarke’s position was downgraded, al-Qa’ida was put in the background so as to emphasize Iraq, and the policy priorities were lowering taxes, abrogating the ABM Treaty and building ballistic missile defenses.
Second, the fact no attack has occurred on U.S. soil since 9/11–much touted by Cheney–is due almost entirely to the nation’s having deployed over 200,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and not to “the Cheney method of interrogation.”
Those troops have kept al-Qa’ida at bay, killed many of them, and certainly “fixed” them, as we say in military jargon. Plus, sadly enough, those 200,000 troops present a far more lucrative and close proximity target for al-Qa’ida than the United States homeland. Testimony to that fact is clear: almost 5,000 American troops have died, more Americans than died on 9/11. Of course, they are the type of Americans for whom Cheney hasn’t much use as he declared rather dramatically when he achieved no less than five draft deferments during the Vietnam War.
Third–and here comes the blistering fact–when Cheney claims that if President Obama stops “the Cheney method of interrogation and torture”, the nation will be in danger, he is perverting the facts once again. But in a very ironic way.
My investigations have revealed to me–vividly and clearly–that once the Abu Ghraib photographs were made public in the Spring of 2004, the CIA, its contractors, and everyone else involved in administering “the Cheney methods of interrogation”, simply shut down. Nada. Nothing. No torture or harsh techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator. Period. People were too frightened by what might happen to them if they continued.
What I am saying is that no torture or harsh interrogation techniques were employed by any U.S. interrogator for the entire second term of Cheney-Bush, 2005-2009. So, if we are to believe the protestations of Dick Cheney, that Obama’s having shut down the “Cheney interrogation methods” will endanger the nation, what are we to say to Dick Cheney for having endangered the nation for the last four years of his vice presidency?
Likewise, what I have learned is that as the administration authorized harsh interrogation in April and May of 2002–well before the Justice Department had rendered any legal opinion–its principal priority for intelligence was not aimed at pre-empting another terrorist attack on the U.S. but discovering a smoking gun linking Iraq and al-Qa’ida.
So furious was this effort that on one particular detainee, even when the interrogation team had reported to Cheney’s office that their detainee “was compliant” (meaning the team recommended no more torture), the VP’s office ordered them to continue the enhanced methods. The detainee had not revealed any al-Qa’ida-Baghdad contacts yet. This ceased only after Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, under waterboarding in Egypt, “revealed” such contacts. Of course later we learned that al-Libi revealed these contacts only to get the torture to stop.
There in fact were no such contacts. (Incidentally, al-Libi just “committed suicide” in Libya. Interestingly, several U.S. lawyers working with tortured detainees were attempting to get the Libyan government to allow them to interview al-Libi….)
Less important but still busting my chops as a Republican, is the damage that the Sith Lord Cheney is doing to my political party.
He and Rush Limbaugh seem to be its leaders now. Lindsay Graham, John McCain, John Boehner, and all other Republicans of note seem to be either so enamored of Cheney-Limbaugh (or fearful of them?) or, on the other hand, so appalled by them, that the cat has their tongues. And meanwhile fewer Americans identify as Republicans than at any time since WWII. We’re at 21% and falling–right in line with the number of cranks, reprobates, and loonies in the country.
When will we hear from those in my party who give a damn about their country and about the party of Lincoln?
When will someone of stature tell Dick Cheney that enough is enough? Go home. Spend your 70 million. Luxuriate in your Eastern Shore mansion. Shoot quail with your friends–and your friends.
Stay out of our way as we try to repair the extensive damage you’ve done–to the country and to its Republican Party.
– Lawrence Wilkerson
(Release: November 13)
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You dont have to worry sir at the rate Obama is going there will be no country worth saving. All you had to say was Rachel Maddow, and we know which side your bread is buttered on.
I appreciate this article.
Now, while I also do not care much for Rachel M., I prefer not to use the guilt by association argument. When we used that against O, people didn’t buy it because they pulled out the fact that using a guilt by association argument is often considered illogical.
The problem is that sometimes you can form an accurate opinion of a person’s character by who they hang out with, and sometimes you can’t. As Sgt. Friday would say, “Just the facts, ma’am.”
Nowadays with the paucity of real journalism in the MSM, people who want to get their points across have few places to go to in order to have their say. This is an argument that counters what O seems to be trying to say, that maybe the “Cheney style of interrogation” did some good. It moves us past the stupid concentration on “what Pelosi knew and when did she know it” question into the real question: Where’s the proof that “enhanced interrogation” in the Cheney style does work? And then maybe we can move into the next question: Was the implementation of the policy that allowed this form of interrogation a war crime and should we prosecute?
As a Star Wars fan, I love the characterization of Dick as a Sith Lord.
Thanks, Colonel Wilkerson!
I suppose then we should just cut their heads off then we might be respeceted.Torture my Ass Catterpillars for crying out loud.How torturous was it for our ment to face a beheading and know it was comming.I say that it was not torture but interogation,what are we supposed to do ask nicely if there is a bomb in the World Trade Center.
right on Pat…
I thought you goopers believed in “law and order”? Waterboarding has been regarded as a crime in the United States at least since 1901 (when a US Army Major was sentenced to 10 years at hard labor for ordering the waterboarding of a Filipino insurgent). After WW II, the US tried and convicted several Japanese officers for ordering waterboarding, and sentenced them to punishments ranging from 15 years to death by hanging. US soldiers who waterboarded prisoners were court-martialed during Viet Nam. It’s a violation of the War Crimes Act of 1946, *and* of the UN Convention on Torture (signed and ratified during the Reagan Administration and therefore, according to Article VI of the Constitution, the “Supreme Law of the Land”).
And yes, I fully support charging Pelosi for her complicity, as well.
You don’t get it torture does not work.
It only works against us. We cannot hold our head up as being the moral good in the world, if we are no better than our enemies.
There is a reason it is a crime.
It also puts our own soldiers in harms way and is a great recruiting tool for the enemy.
By the way the beheading was not torture, but simply executions. You are comparing apples and oranges. Nobody is saying we should not eliminate those who beheaded Americans. What do you think our soliders are doing over there?
Pat, you represent everything that is wrong with this country. Go educate yourself on these issues, rather than giving us your simplistic responses… we have had enough of those for the last 8 years.
I agree with the comment.
The question at this point is not so much where did Bush and Cheney take the country. The answer to that question is known. And whether by dint of luck, the deployment of troops in Iraq or these procedures which were reportedly effective in the alleged second wave attack we did not suffer a second attack. That is a non debateable fact.
The perinent question is where is this Obama taking the country. I have been tracking him for a couple years and I have come to my own conclusions on that subject which closely mirror those of the commentor. Big media remains in denial and yet slowly but surely some of them like George Will are starting to wake up to what those of us who studied him have been saying all along. Simply put, he is a Chicago thug, and it pains me to say it.
As to the merits of the Colonel’s commments about Cheney, I know nothing about this man. He may or may not be an expert in his field. He certainly advances an opinion as if he were. But the one thing I can say for sure is he chose to appear on the hate network and the maddog show. For that reason alone I am inclined to discount his judgment. Most rational people would do likewise.
Lest we forget these are the same scumbags who trashed Hillary unmercifully. They did so primarily to get Obama in there to protect the nuclear power interests of their parent company GE. The record is repelte with examples. And of course their Chairman is on Obamas gang of eight economic advisors to ensure that his interests are protected. That is a clear form of corruption.
This is not a brief for Cheney. I resigned my membership in the RNC and wrote an article highly critical of their approach to leadership and truth, just as I am critical now of anything coming from the bought and paid for left wing ideologues at msmbc and the Obama Admininstration, to the extent there is any difference.
DC Media Girl would have more of an answer than I do. However, just as some send their news. letters/faxes to various Media, both right and left, I tend to think that when one of the Higher echelon have a message they want the public to hear, their PR people/aides do the same.
Larry Wilkerson was Colin Powell’s assistant and has a broad and well earned reputation for knowledge on terrorism. He was one of the first to break w/Bush and Cheney.
Did Wilkerson specifically choose MSNBC and Maddow, or was that the ONLY network that the accepted his offer for an interview?
wbboei, I am well aware of Obama’s and Axelfraud’s ties to the Nuclear industry. I am the one who provided the information to Hillary’s campaign.
However, coziness with the nuclear Industry, or American Monopoly to be exact, does not translate into approval of torture. Halliburton and oil interests were the one who bought into that, as it made more likely control of Mid-East oil and they hoped T.A.P.I. ( Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India) pipeline would be closer to a reality.
Enron’s entire future was staked on it….
Why don’t you focus on what Wilkerson is actually saying instead of what TV show he appeared on. Why does it matter?
Absolutely the truth Diane MSNBC is the worst liberal hate program besides Hnn That I know and I have no respect for the program.I have less respect for Cheney but even less for the Democrats at this time they are no longer for the people but for themselves and big business,I am even doubting Hillary my hero in the elections who i strongly stood behind but don’t know if she would of followed the same agenda of the liberal hate mongers led by dizzy Pelosi.I wanted Health care but not the kind Canada has witing ten years for a set of flase teeth.I dont want to lose my amendment rights and the Democrats have gotten to a place where they think they know best for the people and ignore the peoples voice.
Taxation without representation.Taxing the poor folk on Tobacco and gas and pop.Give me a break,I smoke and it is my right to I have smoked since 14 years of age when smoking was advertized on tv as the thing to do.Now they hte Democrats target smokers to pay for Schip childrens health care targeted just us why do we carry the burden of this care?
I am going forward as Independent and pray Obama doesnt ruing this country!
I got away from my stronget point I hated Cheny I think he is an old fart and carried too much power withing the administration and got rich through the Iraq war with Halliburton.But the Dmeocrats have no shiny badge I can admire to go after teh Republicans they have become just as power hungry and crooked I have no respect for them after Hillary.
In case any of you are wondering, I do know all about MSNBC’s part in the cheating of Hillary. I have been on this site for some time! I hate them for it, but whether we like them or not, we have to hope that more and more they WILL start seeing O for what he is. If the MSM had not just stupidly saying “guilt by association” and had indeed examined the nature of that association, they might have found the truth. So for us to stupidly use the “guilt by association” argument without examining the nature of the association, we’re just as bad as they are.
No one addressed my point that O is doing his usual two-step approach: “I am against torture, but I am also trying not to get involved in drama so if I push too hard on this issue, I might get drama. I guess I’ll admit that maybe torture worked.”
My point also would be that I didn’t think then that it was right to trade the deaths of so many Iraqis and so many soldiers in our effort to say finally that no other terroism attempt like that on 9/11 occurred on our soil. There were far better ways to counter terrorism at home, and we are still not doing it.
And we are still making excuses for our complicity in the use of torture.
Bravo!
I’m not a Republican, never have been, and usually consider them my political enemies, even though I am not a Democrat either. But the Republican Party has had its noble moments and some great leaders. They have often been a major pain in the ass, too. But they serve their function, when not taken over by demogogues and prohibitionists.
I’d like to see the GOP get its shit together and be a responsible force in Congress again. As we see, too much power in the hands of one party leads to abuse and misguided legislation.
The modern Republican Party has absolutely nothing to do with the party of Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln was devoted to expanding democracy and protecting the American people. HIs party believed in investing in the infrastructure. His party rejected racism at a time when it was the order of the day. Abraham Lincoln’s Republican Party loved the Constitution and prized the United States as the Great Experiment in democracy. Abraham Lincoln was a manual laborer throughout the first half of his life. He loved the common people. The Republican Party hasn’t embraced that idea since Lincoln died.
tek, the democrats don’t stand for americans either.
stdgie: The Clintons did. The last real Democrats.
right on
they both love their country.
I would STILL rather have Richard Bruce Cheney and the Republicans running the country than the current administration, no matter what your opinion sir.
anyone but the bunch that,s in there now!!!!!!!!!
It always amazes me when a career military officer breaks ranks after he is fired or demoted and suddenly finds reasons to criticize his former superiors AFTER the fact and not during.
This guy has no credibility - just an axe to grind.
Does “termo” stand for “terminally stupid?” Just asking. First, Col. Wilkerson was not fired or demoted. He resigned. He served honorably and loyally. People like you would insist to their dying breath that the sun does not rise in the east if you thought that conceding the reality would expose the truth. Sad.
Thanks Larry, your frankness is refreshing in a world of equivocation, and your conviction to give “No Quarter” is admirable.
AMEN………
Termo is a family name and you are a psychopathic sack of shit. You need some serious help based on comments I’ve read of yours.
I stand by my comments and wonder where was this smartass when he was serving?
I found his comments right out of the pages of the Daily Kos.
Termo, don’t blame your family for your terminally stupid conduct. I’ll tell you what, go elsewhere. You are no longer welcome here. Your ignorance of Wilkerson’s service and your idiocy in insisting that the man who has the integrity to speak truth to power is somehow the bad guy is disgusting.
Larry,
Just a little advice for you…
If you want your blog to succeed for the long term you have to stop the personal attacks.
I know that your late to the Obama Nation and you have been hurt by not embracing obama in the primary but it’s too late to change your stripes.
Your blog is going to fail if you treat good people like Termo the way you do.
Just so you know the backlash will be severe against obama and his militants.
Hope you are on the right side of history.
Seattle Moss,
I have been reading and enjoying most of your comments for months, and have developed a high regard for you as an individual.
On this one I disagree. Larry J’s reputation for talking truth, whether to power, or thankfully to us individually is IMHO a refreshing breeze of clean air in the atmosphere of our current corrupt “Banana Republic”.
I doubt anyone here cares much for the Obamanation Administration. That said, How many different professionals at this site have said, over, and over and over again “Torture Does Not Work!”
I for one think Cheney is a monster and have thought so since late 2003, when I first read about the US torturing. Other than the FICTIONALJack Bauer on 24, the ticking bomb rationale (notice I did not say probable scenario)is ludicrous. That is the same as saying “well there still exists cannibalism in certain parts of Borneo, therefore it is perfectly acceptable if we do it, because they do!
Further, ALL the professionals, who have taken their time to attempt to make readers of this blog, the most truly informed on the WEB, have served honorably and in circumstances most could not imagine in their worst nightmares.
So WHY do these honorable professionals have to listen to repeated idiotic crap from the likes of “Termo” or accept their abuse? What have these armchair idiots, like “Termo” done to serve our country in an even close approximation to those that try and teach here?
Party labels are meaningless, when a topic under discussion has to do with the basic morality of Right and Wrong. While Michelle Malkin sometimes publishes articles with real meat in them, most of the time I find her much too shrill. Rather than take time to berate her, or get into a ridiculous argument, I just quietly leave.
Guys like “Termo”, who have been told by those in the know umpteen million times why torture does not work, will NEVER change his locked in mind unless he personally experiences it. The absolute drooling blooslust of some of my so called countryment scares me to death. When a “mob” calls for the beastility of torture to others, you can be sure, you may be one of their hapless victims not too far in the furture.
There is no need for these busy and honorable patriots to have to put up with the drivel of idiots like Termo. Just as in an academic setting, any professor would eventually lose patience (Larry has MUCH more than I do) and throw them out of class.
My angle on this issue is not the question of waterboarding or other tortures, but what will happen to this country with endless tit for tat investigations.
I lived in England and saw the suicide which was Watergate. I had to defend my country then as I do now.
Watergate led to Carter and Malaise.
The democrats blocked Bork and then went after Thomas.
They also made a big deal with Iran Contra which backfired on them
The Republicans played payback by going after Clinton and setting up the sting which was Monica.
Bush had no investigations against Clinton on 911 and ended the tit for tat.
Now the democrats to their peril want to prosecute like other Banana republics.
Thankfully Obama realizes that the extinction of the democrat party is at hand if interrogations go forward and we get attacked again.
Time to move forward whatever our feelings on the issue.
I’m glad Obama has the sense to end this cycle.
Like most everything in America there is the media version and the real world version.
Most will armchair argue this is PC or that is moral without ever pulling back the curtain. The citizens have all been well trained to be superficial in the pursuit of truth by the talking head entertainment opiate media.
Put the screws to the media and out soar the defensive flying monkeys. Challenge perceptions of who is a victim and the PC police roar and chastise.
What was and is really known about terrorism is unknown to the majority. Who is a victim may over shadow how many victims there could have been.
Thanks Seattle Moss for continuing to demand that a few shakeout and clean the filters they want see everything through.
For now, he has no need or use for it. He has a congress pushing down policy Chicago style. Right now, a scorched earth policy is the last thing he needs. This is why the “San Francisco Treat” has become expendable.
Good Point.
Obama has to build his power base since his popularity is eroding and he has had to flipflop on several campaign promises.
Bush had NO legitimate* reason to go after Clinton on 9/11. Anyone who’s stupid enough to even think so is so far in the neocon’s pocket as to make anything they might say worthless.
The only people to blame for 9/11 are the asshats in the Bush administration who couldn’t be bothered to listen to the people who were issuing warnings and even giving a briefing to Bush’s National Security Advisor at the time (Condi Rice).
*Not that the GOPers couldn’t have found plenty of illegitimate reasons–such as the early LIES that the outgoing Clinton Administration had removed the “w” off the White House computer keyboards and typewriters.
Arkansas Project. Wayne Dumond. AWOL’s small business venture.
Blood on the Tracks….
oops, Larry didn’t like or agree w something you said so you’re stupid.
So what, he should just shut up if he disagrees with Cheney on torture? Does being a veteran somehow nullify your right to free speech?
Thanks, Larry! And thanks for standing firm: Torture is wrong. Torture by any other name (i.e., enhanced interrogation) is wrong. We gained nothing except the disrespect from the rest of the world by the use of torture.
Thanks for asking Col. Wilkerson to allow this post.
snicker
that snicker btw was for Larry!! this comment way up there made me SERIOUSLY snicker!
“if you thought that conceding the reality would expose the truth”
perfectly said Larry
There’s a reason for that. While still on active duty you can be Court-Martialed. That’s a federal conviction. If convicted you lose all pay, benefits, and allowances.
Folks in the military have families too.
Excellent article. One would think the Republican leadership would tell Mr. Cheney - “Go away. Don’t go away mad. Just go away.”
but candymarl, half the people on this blog think Cheney and Bush should still be in charge. (Hint: that’s what’s wrong with America).
I’m not expert in military and like any ordinary American citizen, my feeling is,0bama had a reason to start, the admissible/nonadmissible water torture pictures. I think,as maybe many Americans,the half of the pictures released, made more harm than good. This left the ” enemies” with the question mark (?), what the other pictures are hiding. If, this was a planned target or not, i don’t know. I think, is yes. Repeat, this is just my belief. I can’t acuse 0, because this is just my hunch.
Colonel Wilkerson: Thank you for your honesty, your integrity, and your service to our country in uniform and your continuing service to repair the damage.
It’s satisfying to know there are still Patriots out there who care more about this country than political parties. Thank you Colonel.
Pelosi, this guy here-Powell as well, where were all these people in 2002 and 2003? Enabling and supporting Bush as far as I can remember. There’s no honor and bravery by complaining about this shit long after the horse has left the barn. Now that the power has shifted and the anti-Bush writing was seen on the wall, they’re all of a sudden harsh critics of the Bush administration.
Sorry, but you’re nothing more than a coward who is hoping that by talking now, long after the damage has been done, that they can restore their own hypocrisy and integrity. In some ways these people are worse than Cheney and Bush because they saw it happen live before their very eyes but decided to go with the flow which was safer and politically expedient for the time.
Wilkerson has been speaking on this issue since he resigned in 2005.
Cheney is the Republicans new weapon.
The more people see Cheney the more they realize the world we lived in after 911.
The revisionists are in an uproar.Ha Ha!
Cheney….stay in the public light!
Because you have voiced the real truth
No Investigations
No prosecutions
No pictures released
No Revision of History
No National Suicide..
Thank you Mr.Cheney for your service!
You are a true American hero!
If you’re not being facetious or sarcastic, then BullS***T!
No Bill of Rights
No Constitution
No Due Process
No Rule of Law
No Checks and Balances
Lovely - Stalin would be proud.
Stalin only understood brute strength as do our Islamic enemies.
Countries live or die based on their ability to defend against all enemies and whatever tactics they use.
Nobody remembers the fine documents written up by countries that have now been defeated and destroyed.
5 deferments = service?
Seattle Moss, on this we disagree. I do agree that national suicide is not in our nations interest, but I am of the opinion that we headed that way.
So you are praising a person who was personally responsible for outting Mrs Wilson? A criminal act?
Ask your self why Cheney would roll up an operation that was investigating Iranian, Pakistani and Iraqi WMD’s?
Why would they do that Seattle Moss?
An true American Hero?
Seattle Moss: everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but if you still don’t understand that Cheney personally created the nightmare we’re living in, you don’t have two brain cells to rub together.
The only reason why you don’t want Cheney around is because he knows the truth and has the goods on you revisionists.
I’m glad Cheney is standing and fighting back against these arm chair revisionists that had no access to reality.
I’m not sure if revisionism is what’s actually going on when we may not have our recent American history straight to begin with.
It astonishes me that Dick Cheney has been forcing an ever-closer inspection of what went on behind the scenes during the post-9/11 Bush years, when their successors seemed willing to leave judgement to the history books. His intention is no doubt to kick the props out from under the democratic majority, but he’s far more likely to demolish what’s left of the republican party and leave the intelligence community in confusion. That will apparently be their ultimate reward for having done his bidding–sometimes, perhaps, against their better judgement.
I was going to post a comment but Larry is calling people stupid again and booting them for disagreeing w him so I’ll go to a thread that’s friendlier.
Wodiej,
We have done our job…
Paula Revere,yourself and I and many others have shown Obama the consequences of prosecuting the former administration.
Revisionists that have blogs appear on talk shows and have vested much energy in their America hate have been defeated by patriots that want to move forward.
Thank you for your service wodiej!
What have you done to show Obama anything. God, talk about delusions of grandeur…
I represent a force of millions that have spoken and for which Obama listened.
I have read your comments and obviously he didn’t listen to you..Ha Ha!
Obama has never suggested that he would prosecute any members of the previous administration. Why would he, when he shares their contempt for the Constitution? He won’t prosecute for the same reason he flipped on FISA - because he wants the power to continue the same abuses.
That his deluded followers ever believed otherwise says a lot more about their gullibility than about his intentions.
Hey Seattle, I am sensing maybe the common threads that hold many here aren’t so strong as some other base sentiments that we aren’t getting past anytime soon. But on the bright side… maybe also, the thought of torches and pitchforks will or is already causing Obama to run for the safety of the political center, like his very presidency depended on it. Because it does, as does the fate of this nation. Socialism and the various flavors of it that feed off of “other peoples money” do not work. History has proven that beyond debate. We have been fortunate in this country up to this point. I hope we can pass this good fortune onward to our children.
Well put.
How do you know where you’re going if you don’t know where you’ve been?
You must be one of Obama’s speechwriters.
Is that an Axelrod quote? Because, it looks like a bumper sticker you might pick up at a DNC rally. How long is a reasonable period of time to hate Bush, and Cheney and Rumsfeld, and Rice and everybody associated with this past administration? Save for Powell of course, as he has said his 200 hail Obama’s and has been forgiven.
I have been many more places than you buddy!
Ooooo, you’re so witty. I notice you mmake a substantial amount of assumtions. If you’ve been where your logic leads, then you’ve been nowhere.
You’re the one that made the assumptions hypocrite.
You assume that because I see into the future in regards to the National Suicide that will occur with the never ending investigations that I haven’t been anywhere.
my logic is simple…
I don’t believe those that weren’t there to see the actual threats after 911.
That means you buddy!
My bad, henceforth I’ll just refer to you as “Madame Seattle Moss the All Knowing”
What assumptions did I make? Identify one and I’ll apologize.
..There is your assumption hypocrite.
Now as for calling me Madam…
You can just call me Mr. Moss
As for predicting the future.
I have made a lot of money with my predictions…
As much as I disagree with Seattle Moss on his position the last thing Seattle Moss is , is a speechwritter for BO.
UG.
Hey Teak
As a Bush/Cheney hater I sure have come a long way.
My view of Cheney is in part based on future recognition not fully known today.
I agree that Cheney is the shiftiest of characters and I have not liked him since the 80’s.
However, Cheney serves the purpose of preventing Obama and his defeat America crowd from destroying this country. Cheney still has power as he alone has stopped the investigations and pictures from being released and has turned the tables on Pelosi.
When we are finally over the nightmare which is Obama we may look back fondly to a time when leaders were tough and gave no quarter to the enemy.
Hey Seattle Moss
I guess Darth Vader had a purpose too.
I am not able to say Cheney was the sole person to stop any investigation, but historically the current admin sweeps as much as they can under the rug.
I would suspect that, behinds the scenes, many forces are allied against doing an Ollie North if at all possible.
The only question I have for you is, “what is a legal order”?
You are welcome to disagree, but calling me a “psychopathic piece of shit” is not allowed. If the fucker had the stones, which he doesn’t, to say it to my face I’d flatten his nose.
And I’m not calling termo “stupid.” It is an objective fact. He made factually wrong statements about Colonel Wilkerson. Facts that are in the public domain. No excuse but stupidity for such errors.
Gota like the honesty.
thanks Larry.
that.s why it.s called NO QUARTER.
Prehaps it pays to revisit what real torture looks like.
Another ex-Colonel who still carries his past rank.
My brother is a retired Colonel (Regular Army) and does not refer to himself as “Colonel.”
And,according to this ex-Colonel: “Second, the fact no attack has occurred on U.S. soil since 9/11–much touted by Cheney–is due almost entirely to the nation’s having deployed over 200,000 U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan….. ”
So the Iraq invasion did have a payoff - sort of.
Hey gw,
Yah gotta pay closer attention to what olde Deadeye said last Sunday. ..
He specifically stated that Obama’s rescinding of the “enhanced interrogation techniques” that haven’t been employed for the last five years under the Bush Administration will adversely affect our national security…
Or maybe pay closer attention to what the actual perpetrators of 9-11 are saying now. I think that will prove more productive in the long term.
Absolutely, Doc.
Yes–we weren’t bombed again. Wow, typical American response. It’s all about us, isn’t it. My country right or wrong, not my country BECAUSE it is right.
Authorizing torture was wrong. I want America to get back to the point of KNOWING that torture is wrong. (And just because some people stuck in the Middle Ages decided to behead innocents does not mean that now we can pat ourselves on the back and say, “At least we weren’t so bad!”)
One of the reasons I finally decided to vote McCain was his firm stand against torture, and I do wish he would speak up more on this issue now and quit letting Cheney and Limbaugh speak for the GOP.
All I am hearing from many on this thread is that torture was not torture; it was o.k., that we don’t need to and are not justified in questioning it’s use. Maybe that we should just sweep it under the rug.
It does make me decide to finally and forever leave this blog.
Diana, I think it’s just the particular people posting tonight. On other threads, most people are saying torture is wrong. Don’t leave.
I think most people are against torture.
It’s just that some of the ‘vocal’ commenters on this blog have slowly changed from democrats who were against Bush and his policies to now hating oZero so much they will cling to anything (including Bush and his policies) just to “stop” oZero. I’m sad when I read some of the comments and see how just a year has changed some.
So Diana, please don’t leave. You’ve been a voice of reason and careful logic, not kneejerk reaction.
I’m currently reading Jane Harmon’s and is talking about Zubayda’s torture and how twisted the Bush/Cheney claims were/are. The FBI got info out of him right away, the CIA takes over and tortures him and finally gets some info —but it’s info we’d had for months.
And moreover, those who say, “Where was Wilkerson all this time ago?” Well, guess what? The War Council circumvented normal channels and made this happen without including most other people. I can’t remember exactly who now, but the head legal figures in some of these agencies were kept out of the loop because CHENEY HIMSELF declared them politically “unloyal.”
I think that showing the torture photos without holding those responsible is pointless and could hurt us. Just seeing the photos would piss people off and make more radicals. BUT!!! If we showed the photos as part of a TRIAL against those who thought it up, made it “legal”, passed it down as policy, and those who went along with it…(And yes, I believe even those ‘grunts’ who did the torture should be tried. I’d rather have gone to jail than lower myself to that level.)…then they would have value.
So put the pictures up next to Addington, Yoo, Gonzales, and Cheney….the caption would be “This is what THESE people did. and WE WON’T STAND FOR IT.” Bush was just a Cheney’s Pet Goat and not given any details, he was just Cheerleader in Chief. Conviction without principle shows weakness.
I for one won’t sacrifice my integrity and values just for some notion of seeing a president I don’t like fail.
s/b Jane Harmon’s The Dark Side book
I hope you stay, Diana L.C., because you’re a great poster here, not just on this topic. I and I’m sure many/ most others agree with you re-torture as well.
I love it how all of these supposedly brilliant people like Wilkerson, Powell, Pelosi seem to alway cry about how they were fooled, bullied and cajoled by the Bush people when it comes to the period right after 9/11 and before the Iraq war.
According to the wiki (so take it for what it’s worth) Wilkerson resigned in 2005 after it was obvious that all that shit in the Powell speech to the UN was bogus, but Wilkerson attributes his part on signing off on it as he only had a week to review the materials. Poor baby. Give me a break. A week to review all the material should have been a red flag but instead he went with the Bush/Cheney flow.
Now that the horse is out of the barn and running around the yard we’re supposded to commend him for telling us the barn door was left open.
we could just subject to him to waterboarding to find out the truth, afterall, no permanent damage done, right?
You sir are an ass.
Thank God for Dick Cheney!
I and 60%+ of America supports doing whatever we have to do to Terrorists if it will save lives.
Knowing you worked for Powell says it all.
Yes seriously, and we all think Pelosi has some nerve. Powell sold the war. For all practical purposes it is as much his as anybody’s. Bush & Co. made me do it only goes so far, and then it gets real old real fast.
How many American lives have the policies of the past administration saved? How many American lives have they cost, and how many American lives have been terribly and permanently altered as a consequence?
I don’t believe the story told by the arithmetic is as clearly favorable as some would like to presume.
..yes, and how many Iraqi lives? About a million…
Oh Gawd, I can’t believe Ziggy and I are in agreement. Torture is wrong. I can’t believe so many individuals are actually saying that enhanced interrogation techniques are okay. I’ve said this before: my father was tortured. I’ve seen up close and personal what torture does to a person’s psyche. Surely we, as a country, have evolved beyond needing to torture anyone. It doesn’t work. What about that do people not get. Torture does not work! You will say anything to make it stop! For those of you who are willing to buy into the illusion that torture will guarantee your safety, give it up. It is an illusion.
Well, the majority of the people at one point thought the sun revolved around the earth, so giving percentages like that really tells me that your argument is “correct,” doesn’t it. Sometimes one out of 100 can be the right one.
I hear he’s not busy this weekend. Maybe y’all could go duck hunting together.
If “The Truth About Richard Bruce Cheney” is actually the title of Col Wilkerson’s blog, then I think he is doing Mr Cheney an enormous favor because I don’t think any of us even begin to know the “truth” about Cheney. Not that I don’t want to know….I listen very attentively every time David Ray Griffin opens his mouth and I am on the edge of my seat waiting for the latest from Seymour Hersh. Hopefully, there will be many more muckrakers out there digging up the real dirt. It’s also interesting to me to consider what a favor Cheney is doing for Obama by setting himself in the spotlight as Darth Vader and taking some of the heat off the Chicago Fraud.
This is quite an entertaining thread of comments. I, for one, think the gop and the independent block is being rebuilt over dinner tables, one house at a time, just as the recent democrat movement was, over the past three years. Parties are actually lead by people in the precincts, not so much by the figureheads who give good TV.
A great article on Cheney by Bill Kristol.
http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/503opswv.asp
viking, that was an interesting read. the democrats are not the answer and neither are the republicans. we are dealing now with what we got versus what we “hoped” we’d get. it is down hill now for the dims. take a look at nancy’s demise. she has lost a lot of power and revolt is in the air.
Stodgie,
Agreed as to the dems and pelosi in particular. My impression is that an enormous backlash is building which the repubs can ride to a huge victory IF they actually put country (duty) before party (power) and self interest (corruption).
Its never too late to do the right thing.
There is a huge vacuum in the center right now. There is an old saying that nature abhors a vacuum. That vacuum will be filled. I hope the republicans get their act together before the democrats fill that void.
Docelder, from 2004 to this last election, the vacuum you speak of was a compression reaching critical mass with the election of fraud BO. Some think a star was born, others, like myself, think
Cultural astrophysics.
Matter condenses, reaches critical mass and explodes in a red shift leaving a black hole in it’s wake.
So many Quasars…so little time. I am sure glad Hubble is getting a make over…it can bring a penny into sharp focus from 200 miles up. Pity the voters this country elect people who can’t see what is in front of them and no make over can cover the lies.
Just as I always thought: The conservative movement is best characterized as collapsing white dwarves.
viking, i enjoyed listening to newt last night on greta. who knew that i’d look forward to listening to him. the times do change!
stodgie,
tell me about it! I was right there last night too. When the teaser came on announcing newt coming up on greta I thought “oh, good!”.
Back in the day, I knew they’d find no WMDs in Iraq. I said to anyone who would listen, ‘mark my words, they’ll find no WMDs in Iraq’. What is so disappointing to me is that the Bush admin. listened to the same group of ‘marketing’ advisers who screwed McCain and Palin. If they’d trusted us to understand the good reasons for the Iraq invasion we’d have supported them. I think what everyone resented was being fed a falsehood and thereafter it made us all suspicious of their motives.
From there on it went downhill, they folded camp on really talking to us. The media (I think embarrassed by their initial complicity) turned on the admin. I wish Cheney et al had done then what he is doing now.
I remember so well Bush’s last address to the nation. I was really stunned by it. The sincerity was palpable. He really meant it when he said that after 9/11 he never looked back.
In my view, Pelosi, Obama et al never ‘got’ the paradigm shift that was 9/11. They’re carrying on as if the the threat does not exist and trying to make political hay out of anything and everything. Just so much more bs. It really breeds resentment.
[...] was August 2002 so important? As Larry Wilkerson pointed out earlier today, in a a piece first posted at Steve Clemens’ site, the impetus for waterboarding Zubaydah was [...]
Thank you Col. Wilkerson. I concur with your opinion of Cheney and further, I appreciate your service to our great nation. I believe that Bush and Cheney are the worst leaders our country has known; they have literally trashed everything and are responsible for destroying the Republican Party as well as having paved the yellow-brick road for the ill-prepared, never fully vetted, Obama, which is serious insult to serious injury!! The condition in which Bush and Cheney left this country is a disaster and THE REAL THREAT TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY because we are weakened and vulnerable on a multitude of fronts from their poor stewardship. I have to agree with Eastan “the gop and the independent block is being rebuilt over dinner tables, one house at a time.” At least that is my hope.
Thank you too, Larry Johnson.
thank you Col.Wilkerson.and you too Larry.
for your service to our grateful nation.
Everyone know Rachel doesn’t like Dick. Or Cheney
What a terrific post. Much to think about. Thanks.
Perhaps worth mentioning here again that Obama and Cheney are, in fact, distant cousins…for real…
Bravo and thanks for that, Larries Wilkerson and Johnson.
That said, I foresee an interesting shakeup in the makeup here. Many of the readers– and guest posters– acquired during the Obama bashing epileptic fit will not agree that torture is a bad thing. So, this oughta be good.
And as a final note, it’s not the case that torture doesn’t work. Torture does work– if your objective is to produce fictional confessions, which was what the Bush admin was after. Jesse Ventura of all people got off a good one the other night on the subject by pointing out that if you gave him a half hour with Dick Cheney, he could make him confess to the Sharon Tate murders.
And the Lindbergh kidnapping, and the grassy knoll shooter, and the Zodiac murders, and the Jack the Ripper slashings, no doubt.
Larry Wilkerson advises Dick Cheney: Shoot quail with your friends–and your friends.
My standard response to anyone giving reasons for the fact that the US has not endured a terrorist attack since 2001– ignoring the homegrown anthrax mailings, abortion clinc bombings, etc– is to point out that no Vice President has shot a friend in the face since 2006, and then I’ll give them the reason, which is of course entirely unrelated.
Feel free to provide your own reason. For example, a movie release or the ascendancy of a rock band. It’s fun.
Good analysis Col Wilkerson. Very enlightening.
Now, please analyze for us the current situation with the new President. Are we safer?
Care to deny if any torture was done by contractors after the second term of office?
The name John Israel, foregin national who worked at Abu Gharib ring a bell?
foreign national*
Cheney is the same coward he was in college, he is looking for yet another deferment here, that’s all.
He started torturing in the first place in order to get a deferment from facing the consequences of engineering an unprovoked attack on a sovereign nation. Never mind how many men, women and children were killed and maimed, along with our own service men and women, Dick Cheney is too important to face the consequences of his own actions.
I think Cheney is a man who truly believes in nothing. By now, after what he has done you’d think he’d be trying to save his immortal soul instead of just trying to cover his necrotic a$$.
When do we find out who these “contractors” are? Where did they come from and who hired them?
Perhaps we weren’t bombed again because the first bombing was ALLOWED to happen. Cheney was as fond of a good crisis as Emanuel.
If you believe that you don’t have two brain cells to rub together….
SM, the thing about that is: Why did Cheney personally prevent the USAF from intercepting the flights?
There is the testimony somewhere of the controller guy in the sit room who asks “should be send the order to intercept?” but Cheney made that guy stand down!!
Moreover, they were practicing this very scenario that day…including having the fighter pilots use their unarmed jets as missles to take down the hijacked planes.
So, IF TRUE, Cheney either allowed it to CONTINUE or is just plain stupid.
Thanks, Larry, mods, and Col. W, for the education I receive from this blog every day. I may not agree with anyone or everyone all the time, which is my right/our right–so far–in the USA. I do appreciate the respect for the Bill of Rights, especially that Numero Uno, that Larry and Team bestow on us all.
I’m just learning some of the US military/defense info about our country posted on this blog and I hope you all keep posting it. I like being a well-informed citizen and voter, which I pray will become the norm in the next elections.
Whata yah gonna do if you find your family jewels are between a rock and a hard place…?
Well, you might attempt to create a diversion…?
Right on; Cheney and his “supposed” strong arm intrusions and meddling are now being closely scrutinized.
A congressional committee investigation… Not too likely?
Special council or “blue ribbon committee”…A possibility…?
So now you want to reduce the heat level… so you introduce a strawman or woman; of when someone else or other group might actually have known or been told, some part of the actual covert skullduggery your were engaged in and then cry, out loud…
Rather a neat trick, if you can pull it off…
Right now it’s working…!
Keep ‘em, indisposed, misused and completely confused…!
I personally don’t agree with torture to obtain information. Seems to me like interrogators could get a lot more information from radical Fundamentalist Islamists by just putting a pig in the cell with them…I am rather certain that
drone bombs could be replaced with huge drops of bacon and bacon grease on villages occupied by Al Qaeda. First drop leaflets, then bacon…
If you follow his reasoning, Senator Graham’s logic depends on folks being guilty of witchcraft.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6cU4ohj-QE&feature=related
When politics becomes the reason, and partisanship is in season, these are the results.
I find it interesting that cia matter split down partisan lines in public, by cia personnel.
That is certainly no secret.
It’s just amazing, the twisted American government split on all decisions, and most all information and intelligence in a grey area they all can argue over, and so opinions and positions morph, and morph a lot, but each uncertain party, has a conspiracy tale to tell, here’s one for us all.
And here’s another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6cU4ohj-QE&feature=related
Wilkerson developed the presentation Powell made at the UN concerning WMD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwdsm-Oux4o&feature=related
As they say, you’re in too deep, we’re taking you off the assignment.
Now afterwards, we have, the secret cabal and the pressure… singlehandedly… LOL
The State Department doesn’t get to make the world decisions. They might want to, in fact they do, working with the CIA, perhaps feel they know more than anyone.
Now I’m listening to Wilkerson say where were the WMD factories, of course, very conveniently, after he made the Powell presentation, now, as usual, has a scapegoat of a secret cabal to blame it all on.
Take a loook, he’s all over youtube!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwdsm-Oux4o&feature=related
Thanks, but I’ll keep seeing who did what, and why they are saying what they say now, and then make a decision.
Nice try.
Wilkerson is a self-promoting liar. He is still telling the Bush lied-lie. This is all really so simple, Colonel. You have no evidence whatsoever that either Bush or Cheney lied about the existence in Saddam’s Iraq of WMD. It is all true that the evidence for WMD as well as any Saddam/Bin Laden or Iraq/Al Queda connection was weak, and that the British knew that evidence was thin. We know that from the so-called Downing Street memo. But the memo proves NOTHING about what Bush and Cheney believed about WMD in Iraq; further the memo proves exactly NOTHING about what Bush and Cheney believed about Al Queda’s relationship with Saddam. In short, Bush and Cheney were mistaken about WMD, and they MAY have been mistaken about the Saddam/Al Queda link. But you have not, and you cannot prove that their beliefs were not bona fide. Simple enough for simple minds like yours, Colonel. sign me Private Jim. You’d be the 1st to be fragged … sir.
By the way Colonel, I am also a Republican. I’d advise you to get out of the conservative party while the getting is good. The Pelosi imbroglio is going to prove what Republicans have been saying since Bush launched the war: Democrats conspired to undermine the President’s credibility, to undermine the war effort, and to get themselves elected on the strength of an American defeat in Iraq. NOW GET OUT OF OUR PARTY YOU LYING SCUMBAG and TRAITOR.
Pvt. Jimbo