Murder Is Murder
By Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy on June 2, 2009 at 9:06 AM in Abortion, Crime, Current Affairs
By now, surely you have heard of the death of Dr. George Tiller in Kansas, shot to death in the foyer of the church for which he was acting as an usher. Regardless of how you feel about abortion (and I am pro-choice, though, like Secretary Clinton, I believe abortion should be safe, legal, and rare), what happened to Dr. Tiller is reprehensible. Even Operation Rescue, a group I have engaged in protests against in the past, decried this crime. Here is a news-clip:
This is not the first time a doctor who performed abortions has been killed. A Unitarian Universalist doctor, John Britton, along with his escort, Lt. Col. Barrett, was killed in Pensacola, FL in 1994. Dr. Britton had taken up the position to replace another doctor who had been killed for providing abortions, Dr. David Gunn. Ironically, the man who killed Dr. Britton and Lt. Col. Barrett was a Presbyterian minister. Yikes.
This tragedy, this murder of Dr. Tiller in his church, while not the first time for someone who performed abortions, I sure hope will be the last. But if “history is prologue,” as they say, I fear it isn’t. I lived in Boston at a time when a Planned Parenthood was attacked by a lone gunman, killing two people, with five injured. That was also in 1994.
I have long thought that people like these were domestic terrorists, before the term was used with such frequency, before 9/11, before Timothy McVeigh, even. Their agenda was/is to terrorize women who sought abortions, and those who worked in the clinics, thus fulfilling the definition, in my opinion.
That is to say, this has been going on for some time now. It is horrifying, it is mind boggling, and those responsible should face the highest possible punishment for their actions, whether it be Scott Roeder, the man who shot Dr. Tiller, or people like Eric Rudolph who bombed abortion clinics (which, by the way, also provide family counseling and other women’s health services - they aren’t just abortion clinics). No matter the party in power, no matter the political climate, it seems there will always be people, no, domestic terrorists like Roeder and Randolph, will engage in violence against women and those who work to help us in our time of need. No doubt, there is a lot of blame to go around for why this is so, who spurs these ideas, and so on, but people are ultimately responsible for their own actions. In this case, for whatever his crazy reasons, Scott Roeder decided to end this man’s life.
To Dr. Tiller’s family, my heart, and prayers, go out to you. I pray that you may be comforted by your family, your friends, and your faith. To the congregation that had to witness this tragedy, my prayers go out to you as you try to deal, and heal, from the sudden loss of a valued member by this senseless act committed in your sacred space. And for us all, that this act remind us that we do indeed face terrorists at home as well as abroad. That we must be vigilant in protecting the rights of Americans here, and that we must act swiftly to see that justice is done to those who violate those rights. And throughout it all, may we act with compassion toward all those whose lives have been affected by this crime…
(Release: November 13)
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Yes - killing a walking talking living human being is murder.
Some of us haven’t quite decided if a sperm has a brain and if an egg really WANTS to be so assaulted!! I mean come ON it’s attacked by MILLIONS of them at ONCE!!
Shouldn’t there be a law?
(facetious much? um yep)
but seriously if the INSANE with weapons had stopped long enough to THINK they would realize that killing ONE doctor is NOT going to stop anything. They’ll only replace him.
The law of supply and demand dictates. (although personally I am against abortion after the quickening and wouldn’t do it or ask anyone to perform it)
the Famous become Infamous instantly
I find it hard to feel bad for tillers death….he clearly was a master of infanticide….
marktarheel your mean comments are inappropriate and offensive. I think you are on the wrong blog.
For me, it’s not so much that marktarheel’s hateful rants are out of line on this blog as that they are stupid. In all the years he provided medical care to the women of Kansas, Dr. Tiller was never prosecuted for killing infants, let alone convicted of the crime.
Here’s a great article in which one of his grateful patients describes his care.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/01/us-doctor-tiller-killing-abortions
The other day they started off with 3 late term baby killers
Today there is only 2 in all the US
That is a 33% reduction.
I wonder what the other two are thinking right now and I bet it’s not more business.
They are thinking why did I decide to live in a country that allows fundamentalist lunatics spread their hate and lies about third trimester abortions under the guise of First Amendment rights.
Yep. Evidently it’s OK to encourage terrorists in America–provided they’re doing God’s work, as defined by a certain radical fundamentalist segment of the Christian community.
Just be sure to publicly deplore their actions when the news hits.
Poor Ziggy,
So easy to put people in a box…Right!
How about me…I’m a conservative Catholic former democrat that is Pro Choice but views Late Term Abortions on Demand as totally unacceptable except in the rare case as Sonic Kitty mentioned upstream.
Any other reason is the same as throwing a baby in the dumpster.
Unfortunately putting people in a box is as easy as pulling a trigger.
To clarify my position, I also consider late-term abortions for reasons other saving the life or health of the mother, or in the case of severe fetal defects that will result in lives of unacceptable suffering, morally unacceptable. I believe deciding if those circumstances exist and what should be done about them are matters best left between a mother, a doctor, and God.
Much is made of the number of abortions Dr. Tiller performed. Consider how long he was a doctor, and that he was one of less than half-a-dozen doctors in the country who would perform them when the procedure when it was considered to be needed.
To further clarify, I personally disapprove even of early-term abortion, without some compelling moral argument for the procedure. I just believe that the moral choice belongs to the mother, and the advisability of the medical procedure is between she and her doctor. Pro-choice is NOT synonymous with pro-abortion.
Ziggy, I am with you exactly. In Kansas two medical opinions are needed when the mothers health is given as a reason. Having a second doctor in your office to do this, I don’t think honors the spirit of that law. Unless somebody did an independent review of those records, nobody knows for sure how many of those procedures really were medically necessary to save the mothers life. Again, not condoning the murder. Just looking at this in retrospect. 60,000 is a lot of abortions when Kansas has something less than 40,000 total births per year in the whole state to begin with. I am guessing here, but say the fee averaged $400 each, that is 24 million dollars in fees.
It’s a pleasure agreeing with you Ziggy!
I’ll that enjoy that momentary state of affairs while it while it lasts. *S*
For what it’s worth, I’m closely attentive to both your comments and those of Docelder, even when our opinions are much at odds. There are quite a few people around here whose opinions I respect greatly, even when I disagree with them. It’s the well-thought-out opinions differing from my own that make me think and sometimes make my views shift.
I am 53
IN my 53 YEARS I have NEVER EVER met anyone that DIDN’T agree that LATE TERM is a NO NO and should NOT happen
again lest life of mother is deemed worthy? I mean these are single cases that from what I’ve read don’t happen willy nilly across the country every minute of every day although I see those cruel lies on posters almost every day
the right keeps lying about it
the left keeps acting like it NEVER happens
personally I think if the MEN stay OUT of it there would be LESS problems (period)
stick with what they do best
(um what ever that is, sorry guys)
you can’t HAVE my body
nor can you control it
worry about your OWN Johnson
and keep it under control
that should be ENOUGH for you
(grr)
“To clarify my position, I also consider late-term abortions for reasons other saving the life or health of the mother, or in the case of severe fetal defects that will result in lives of unacceptable suffering, morally unacceptable.”
So did Dr. Tiller. So do all of us.
Those two liberal fascists are thinking why can’t I live in a country where the State is the highest power and the value of a human being whether old or or new is devalued for the good of the state.
IMO, none of these lunatics who kill for a cause actually care about that cause. It is just their excuse. They want to kill someone and look like a martyr, much like muslim extremists. This guy didn’t really care about the unborn, just as people who kill in God’s name don’t care about god or religion.
political — In one of his comments left at Operation Rescue, Roeder wrote that the abortion doctor was the concentration “Megele” of our day and needed to be stopped before he and his protectors bring judgement upon our nation.
It may be of significance, as far as the timing of the shooting with media reports of the court decision, that Dr. Tiller had been acquitted 2 months earlier (this year) on charges that he performed abortions illegally.
–concentration camp “Megele” of our day–
The misdemeanor charge on which the jury acquitted him - it took less than an hour - involved a financial relationship with one of the physicians who consulted on the procedure.
http://evolvinginkansas.blogspot.com/2009/04/dr-george-tiller-acquitted-on-all.html
Recruiter Shooting Suspect Under FBI Investigation:
The suspect, Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, 24, had changed his name from Carlos Leon Bledsoe after converting to the Muslim faith.
Why hasn’t the President expressed his OUTRAGE at this murder as he did for the murder of abortionist Dr. Tiller.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=7730637&page=1
He will use it… as a case to take away guns. The rest of it doesn’t fit his agenda, therefore it serves no purpose to bring it up. He is a like a machine, he stays on mission. It got him this far.
ugh that is too true.
Exactly HARP! Why hasn’t the president held a press conference about this. He was charged with terrorism and there is crickets! Outrageous indeed!!!!!!
I asked that same question, HARP (and I do have a post abt that that will go up later). What happened is just shocking. As is the lack of comment from some people…
My prayers and sympathy goes out to Dr. Tiller’s family but my heart and soul goes out to the THOUSANDS (MANY LATE TERM) who were aborted by him.
There should never be a “but” when offering your prayers and sympathy to a grieving family.
I respectfully disagree. We all are entitled to our views and if I want to add a “but” to mine, I am entitled to do so the same as you.
Thank you!
I havent attacked your views at all, simply noted that the BUT hanging off your heartfelt apology renders it a bit less sincere.
If you feel that life begins at conception and that you don’t have sympathy for the death of someone you feel has aborted ‘THOUSANDS’, come on out and say it.
I actually understand and respect the pro-life viewpoint.
If I believed that life began at conception I would certainly make my feelings known, honestly and at the appropriate time.
Not with a “but” embedded in a false statement of charity and sympathy.
I understand and respect your point of view. Let’s agree to disagree on the issue.
Just out of curiosity, I wonder why so many here have not voiced their outrage when a person who kills a pregnant mother is charged with two murders? A Man can be charged with Double Murder for Killing a Pregnant Woman who’s fetus is not viable out of the womb.
Double murder is a term used to describe the act of unlawfully killing two people. This is commonly punished by back-to-back life sentences. It is not uncommon for a double-murder charge to be enforced in cases of fetal homicide or when a pregnant woman is murdered.
I absolutely do not condone the murder of Dr. Till, however, I do understand why many people who are pro-life or at the very least, anti late-term abortion have little sympathy for the guy. Just because you don’t sympathize for him, doesn’t mean you condone his murder. It’s not so black and white, IMO.
Those abortions, which you so lament, saved women’s lives and ended the needless suffering of the non viable unborn.
What is it about severe fetal abnormalities and life threatening pregnancies that you don’t understand?
JUDGEMENT DAY!
It’s really hard to work up much pity for either one of these masterpeices of human shit on the one hand a baby killer and the other a common murderer.
lets hope these two can continue their beef in hell ASAP.
Late term abortions are needed for two reasons: the mother’s life is in danger or the fetus is not viable, which means it will not live life outside the womb.
Dr. Tiller was a hero to women. He helped women in desperate need when few others could and he did so under constant threat from the ignorant and the politically ambitious.
It’s really hard to work up much pity for either one of these masterpeices of human shit, on the one hand a baby killer and the other a common murderer.
lets hope these two can continue their beef in hell ASAP.
agreed…let em both rot……..
Perhaps you two should try reading up on anencephaly and the many other fatal or debilitating diseases that can affect a fetus. Pregnancy is not always a walk in the park, and some women do not get the Disney version of it.
Dr. Tiller was a Godsend to many, many women. Why don’t you read some of their stories:
http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/
It would be interesting to see the statistics in there. How many of these late term abortions he did overall, in what percentage of all births these defects happen and weigh the numbers to see if they make logical sense.
Why is it important to sort the stats according, I assume, to your particular criteria? Isn’t it enough to know that each woman, in consultation with her doctor, her family, and the people SHE knows and trusts (may I point out, not you, me, or any Congress people in 99.9999% of the cases) to make that decision for herself?
I’m not trying to be contentious, I’m honestly wondering at what point do you think the State gets to control a person’s body, mind, and life?
I just think there is a disconnect here. If a murderer kills a pregnant woman, he gets charged with two murders. In this case the unborn baby has rights. Under what circumstances can these rights disappear? Is the mother the sole arbiter of whether the baby has rights and at what point? Or, should the state set up logical and equitable laws and everybody follow them. I think the latter. But that is just me.
No; you don’t know what you are talking about. The DA does not automatically charge murder; first, there is an analysis as to fetal viability outside of the mother. So, are you saying that, DA’s who bring charges against the killers of the woman but not for killing her fetus, should be shot, too? Or that you approve of aborting fetuses which would die on delivery, anyway, thus aiding in the mental and physical health of the women carrying these doomed fetuses late term?
I thought we were talking about late term abortions where viability isn’t an issue at all in most cases. Where did I say anybody should be shot? The point was made of seizing control of the mothers body. My point was… at what point does the baby have individual rights, and who decides when that is? Should it be left up to the individual mother, as none will ever see it the same, or should the state set logical and equitable guidelines? As to the last part, I don’t think any reasonable people have any problem with aborting non viable fetuses. Nobody here has said otherwise that I know of. I think this is just too much an emotional topic for many to even discuss. I am just being honest here.
Government can’t even figure out the economy or reign in spending, and these are much more mechanical issues which would seem to be in the best interest of all of us. I very much doubt the State can accurately and without politics determine exactly when living cells become a human being. That’s why I advocate for a woman’s right to choose. She is in the best position of anyone to make that decision.
PS–So what if no one will ever see it the same? That’s OK, imho.
Because they might come to the conclusion that life and it’s decisions are not all good/evil, yes/no, or black/white. That would require independent thought, something that fundamentalists crush in their young.
When I was pregnant with my last child, the doctor wanted to do an amniocentesis procedure to check for defects. The test itself, as told to me by the doctor, could cause a miscarriage. He would not guarantee that it wouldn’t. I said that I didn’t want the test. He then told me of all the horrible things that could be wrong with the fetus in which the child would only live a few hours, such as anenephaly.
I absolutely refused any test that could possibly harm my child. I also want to note that on my first pre-natal check, this same doctor told me that I didn’t “have” to have this baby if I didn’t want to. (It was not a planned pregnancy, a surprise…a happy surprise for me).
Anyway, when my son was born…my only son and youngest of my four children. If I had taken that test and lost him, look at what I would have missed. Oh..and the doc who was there to deliver him? The same doc who encouraged me to abort him.
On another note, my neighbor had a child that was diagnosed with Downs Syndrome before he was born. Her husband wanted her to abort him but she refused. He even threatened to leave her if she didn’t abort. She told him to leave if he wanted to. Now, the child is 8 years old, and the father is head over heels in love with him and said that he had no idea what he would have missed if this child had been aborted.
A child doesn’t have to be perfect to be loved, but he has to be alive. Sometimes caring for a child who is not “perfect” help people to learn how to give love unconditionally. A lesson that I think many in this world could use.
Yes, he was. Thank you for writing this. I’m appalled by the comments I’m reading here.
The man was a hero. A real one and there are so few in the world. Now there is one less.
sorry folks about the double post “educated trigger finger”
My heart too goes out to his family and god bless all those who had to witness this terrible tragedy. It is a sad day for America. Agreed, this is domestic terrorism. Thanks for this piece.
The guy who “allegedly” murdered Dr. Tiller is my neighbor, but I don’t know him. He had been living here in my little suburb of Kansas City prior to the crime.
Turns out he is a right-wing Old Testament fundamentalist with mental illness.
Story information from the KC Star here:
http://www.kansascity.com/842/story/1228553.html
Isn’t that the description of any fundamentalist?
RRR Amy, I agree these are terrorist. Those who support them are terrorist apologists.
I am amazed at the number of people who think they or (worse) the state may take control over a person’s body. That’s loss of liberty at it’s most basic–it is slavery. Therefore I hope abortions can be safe, legal, and PRIVATE.
But that argument gives no rights at all to the unborn baby. Are you thinking there should be none at all until actually born? Then what to do if an aborted baby is alive? Still no rights because the mother intended the baby not to live? There has to be middle ground, otherwise late term abortions are basically infanticide. If some vet was delivering puppies, and as they emerged, he was pinching their heads off and tossing them away, and he offered this service openly to anybody who had a dog, but did not want the burden of puppies… that vet would be arrested for cruelty to animals. What am I missing here?
Docelder, who is going to set in stone all the middle ground? You? Me? The State? I merely say, let each individual set in their own stone the middle ground.
The Pope decides at sperm and egg–fine for him.
Person A decides at a fertilized egg–fine for her.
Person B chooses an arbitrary point, let’s say, a movement, heartbeat or brainwave, that to him/her all of a sudden ‘makes’ the fetus a human–fine for them.
Person C believes the moment of birth or the first breath of life bequeath the title ‘human’ upon the being–again, fine for her/him.
We do not all agree, but we must respect each other’s positions. There is no such thing as a scientific definition of when living cells acquire the status of human being. It is only belief and faith that define it, and we cannot legislate belief and faith, period.
Honestly, I thought that the middle ground was if the baby could survive outside the womb, without the mother then that baby was an individual person with individual rights. I thought we had middle ground. That is not my personal belief, but I am o.k. with it because it is logical and is equitable… note I did not say fair. What is fair? But so long as it is equitable and logical. Letting individuals decide on their own conscience is not equitable as each will differ. What I mean by that is this is not equitable to the babies. Laws need to be logical and equitable to all, that is what I am saying really. That might make me a wingnut to some here, but I am just being honest.
What is “middle ground” is determined by the state. SCOTUS cases involving abortion have examined what is a proper standard for state intervention into the body of the mother. So, when it was petitioned by women from states that sought to limit their control over their bodies, the court examined whether the state could be said to have a compelling interest in violating their privacy which interest was narrowly tailored in the law. The analysis is not at what point a fetus is viable outside of the mother but at what point the state may weigh protecting a state interest justifies the law that infringes the mother’s right to privacy.
But once that baby could live independent of the mother, then that baby has independent human rights. At that point, the baby’s rights become morally equivalent to those of the mother at least to me. But, it would appear all the worry about activist judges is for nothing if the SCOTUS only can rule in the narrow framework of how the initial lawsuit was framed…i.e. mother’s privacy. If the SCOTUS can’t look at the broader picture, then whoever has the most money to spend on lawyers and lawsuits, can mold the laws any way they want them. Not hardly an admirable or just system.
Was Terri Schivo(sp) alive?
In the sense of I think therefore I am?
Do you know why they extract the fetus?
It to prevent damage to the uterus so the woman can later give birth to a healthy baby if she so desires.
This doctor was a respected member of his church so either they knew something more about him than some of you trolls or they are are a bunch of baby killers.
Bots are bots no matter who they idolize.
I was for pulling the plug there. Look if the baby has no brain, sure. That is not even being debated in all seriousness, and I doubt most people would have an issue with that at all. That is a rare condition however. Why are we talking about the rare cases that nobody is disputing?
O.K. to make a point, here is something I already knew, as do most. Here is a wikipedia on anencephaly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly
O.K. in the U.S. this occurs in 1 of every 150,000 to 200,000 births. So, in looking at some statistics in 2003 Kansas in 2003 had 39,353 births in the state total. So statistically, this defect would happen in Kansas once every 4 to 5 years. I think this makes my point. Argue something relevant, else quit calling educated folks bots.
If I recall, even Planned Parenthood had said that there is absolutely no reason for late term abortions. Doctors know well ahead of time if the mother can give birth naturally, if not they can have a C-section and still give birth to a “healthy” baby again.
Late term abortion is murder. Period.
If a person murders a pregnant woman who is late term, that person is charged with two counts of murder. But if some doc sucks the brains out of a baby late term, he’s a hero?
Tiller is no saint, he’s a murderer, pure and simple. He didn’t deserve to be gunned down,but he certainly should never have been allowed to practice this horrific procedure.
Is it my imagination or are there a lot more mean-spirited misogynistic comments on NQ these days?
I have noticed this before, as I’m sure Larry and Susan have also. I am not enjoying the normal give-and-take with people who I like but occasionally disagree.
I don’t like Obama and came over during the Hillary betrayal, along with many others, but now the common Obama dislike seems to have attracted many who fill this blog with comments I expect from the far right and I have absolutely nothing in common with them.
It is changing the character of this blog.
Not to be O/T, but since you brought it up, I hear you, Ellen D. Rest assured, I have not changed. I came here for the same reasons you did. I stay because there is a core group of people who care about looking at the issues with a critical eye, and who care abt the direction in which our country is going.
It is hard when people say things that are diametrically opposed to what we believe, especially if it is in a mean-spirited tone. I can accept those who disagree with me if they do so in a respectful manner, and in a way that invites true dialogue. Otherwise, I ignore them.
Please don’t let them chase you away from here.
R3A, I post on a few sites, on both sides of the political spectrum. I do not cower from discourse with the most rabid right-wing fundamentalist or the most uncivil left-wing misogynist. Because no matter what I think of their opinions, they are still in my world, affecting my life and the life of my child.
I teach in a major urban school system. Whenever a school wants to expel a child 16+ for, say, constant disruption of the learning environment - the law says that we are required to provide a free education up to age 16 - I point out, those problems we fail to address within our walls will confront all of us, outside.
Abortion is very devisive and should not be front and center of our fight against misogyny and sexism. This is where we lose the pro-life women that we must have to achieve the basic rights for women. There are many women who would call themselves feminists except for abortion - whether it is early or late term. I hope this discussion is a good example of the diversity of opinion on this issue even among people who agree on many other subjects. It is explosive. It can kill as we have seen once again this week. There will never be a meeting of the minds on when life begins. NEVER.
I am pro-choice but feel strongly that pro-life is part of pro-choice. A true pro-choice person will go to the wall for the right of a woman NOT to have an abortion if that is her choice. We have got to leave the abortion issue to NARAL and NOW to fight that fight. Abortion is no longer part of my agenda. It IS after all signed into law and will not be taken away as many fear. This is why we need to move on, agree to disagree, and *stop* wasting our valuable time on this never-ending debate.
I feel very adamant that as women we are losing our basic rights - equal pay for equal work, to be treated equally with men, the equitable distribution of assets in a divorce, etc. - because abortion has become the face of feminism. That point was brought home to me resoundingly in 2008 when NARAL endorsed Obama instead of Hillary in the primary.
Regardless of whether we are pro-choice, pro-life, or some where in the middle, we have got to leave this issue behind if we are going to change what happened to Hillary and Sarah Palin in 2008. If it can happen to these outstanding women, the rest of us don’t have a chance.
Very well said, FranSC. One of the demographics the feminists missed the first time around in the 1970’s were the women who wanted to stay home, have a husband, and have a family. They were either ignored or pushed aside as being inconsequential. Some, if not a large part, of that demographic may have been pro-lifers. They are most likely pro-lifers today.
It appears that the same mistake is being made 35-40 years down the road. Some of it seems to be inherent in the movement because the main push was originally for equal rights and pay. Many times women were put down by the womens’ movement because they wanted to stay more traditional instead of getting a job, kicking mens’ butts, and proving a point.
I agree that Hillary and Sarah were prime examples of the backlash against womens’ equality. The abortion issue always overshadows. It’s a pity. America is suffering because the most qualified, passionate, and intelligent presidential candidate happened to be a woman.
Um - the seventies - that was my period as a woman combining motherhood and a career. Far from us ignoring the stay home mothers, we were the ones considered oddballs and in the minority. If the fight centered around us it was because there were no anti-discrimination laws in the workplace. You could get fired for just being pregnant. We were the center of the battle. I didn’t put down my (majority) stay-at-home friends but there was no way they had the problems I had.
And thank you for your comments about Hillary.
I’d just like to say two things:
1- The decision another woman makes and wrestles with about her own health and circumstances is her own to make and is her own business - not mine.
2- Does anyone find it odd that there is no cultural civil war going on in any comparable western country over this? I don’t mean philosophical discussions, I mean public hatred and killings. And that includes all the Catholic European countries.
Maybe that’s because we are founded on the principles of a higher power and through the declaration of independence and the constitution are a beacon of hope for all humanity.
At least I believe it still…I’m not sure Obama does though….
Luv you Seattle Moss but just can’t be egocentric enough to consider we are “founded on the principles of a higher power” and we are “a beacon of hope for all humanity”.
I always saw the country as founded on fairness for all and so long as we stay fair and honest in the eyes of the world we will have their respect.
I haven’t seen that in this thread… so far. But if any and all discourse negative to abortion rights is misogynistic… then realize statistically speaking somewhat over 50% of these late term aborted babies were female. Or, they would have been female. I don’t think anybody is saying killing the doc was o.k. or justified, or that all abortions are bad or inherently immoral… just that there needs to continue to be some well defined and construed rules. It can’t be anytime for any reason without plain morality issues, all religious feelings aside. Religion shouldn’t play a role here in the law at all, morality and human rights is all that is needed to get where we need to be.
“I don’t think anybody is saying killing the doc was o.k. or justified…”
Unfortunately, yes, some people upthread said exactly that.
Yes, I just saw the “let em rot” line. I stand corrected on that.
Yup–I’ve noticed it at Hillbuzz, too.
Ever notice that Anti-Abortion (Not Pro-Life because they aren’t) feel safe enough to drag their children to demonstrations outside of family planning clinics? Ever notice that you never hear of the leaders of these groups or authors of their blogs having to travel with body guards or being prisoners in their own homes because of death threat from Pro-Choicers?
Ever notice you never hear of their buildings or churches being vandalized?
Why do you suppose that is?
Could it be that that who support a woman’s right to choose aren’t deranged religious lunatics carrying a truck load of hate?
My church, a Catholic Church, has been vandalized by those who didn’t like the idea that this church offered services and pray hours for the unborn…held within the church itself.
On very beautiful statue of the Sacred Heart of Jesus outside the church had his hands chopped off by this group of pro-choice zealots. Another statue of the Blessed Mother was stolen out of the Adoration Chapel with a note left behind that “she was being held hostage until all pro-lifers STFU.” and when small crosses on the lawn of the church were displayed in honor of aborted babies, a car drove through the lawn, destroying the crosses (which were only going to be displayed on one weekend.)
So yes…there are plenty of hateful pro-choice zealots out there.
Are you sure it wasn’t the work of a pedophile priest victim?
Murder Is Murder
well said.
An ‘eye for an eye’ and the world will go blind.
I saw a gentleman from the Kansas state attorney’s office on TV yesterday or Sunday, can’t remember, and he said the following:
It is illegal in Kansas to abort a baby after the baby has reached 22 weeks gestation.
A doctor has to have a second opinion if he needs to do an abortion after 22 weeks for the health of the mother, and Dr. Tiller was getting that second opinion from only one person, another doctor in his practice.
There were 2 separate cases filed against Dr. Tiller by the state attorneys, but the more serious one, which involved felony charges, was dismissed by the new Governor when she took office in 2006, I think was the date. Now who was that new governor, recipient of some pretty substantial campaign funds from Dr. Tiller? Why our favorite Governor Sibilious, now Secretary of Health and Human Services. It never ends……..
Anyway, did anyone else see this and remember what program it was on? Maybe Glenn Beck? Or Lou Dobbs? Jeez, I can remember the periodic table of elements from a chemistry class in 1960, but I can’t remember stuff that happened yesterday!
Well I can’t remember anything from civics classes but for the governor to dismiss criminal charges seems far fetched to me. They can pardon the convicted and stay a death sentence but I doubt that they can interfere with the judicial process.
Dr. Tiller made millions performing late term abortion. He aborted 60,0000 babies, so much for abortion being “rare”. Tiller had a rich life… he had a LIFE. I can not feel sorry for him. If my belief is correct, and life does continues on when the body is dead… it must be a sight to see Dr. Tiller stand in judgmemt of the 60,000 babies he killed. Yes, killed - - that is MY opinion and belief.
The argument about abortion is that… NO ONE can say with cetainty when life begins. But I am sure, Dr. Tiller knows now… too bad he can not report back.
Maria3,
You should feel sorry for Dr. Tillman. In addition to the abortion services he provided, he also provided general healthcare to an untold number of women. If you are a female as your name suggests, you should weep that women now have one less individual to look to for healthcare.
How dare you think you can decide who a woman can go to for medical services.
I am a female. I should weep because there is one less abortionist? No. Sorry. I am not going to feel sorry for a man that crushed the skulls of babies at the door of life. I can suggest that you should feel sorry for those babies, but I imagine that my suggestion may not be welcome by you. So I am sure you will pardon me for not feeling sorry for Tiller.
I do not understand that in this day and age of birth control galore on the market,and the knowledge that unprotected sex can kill you, people are still so irresponsible … about protection from unwanted pregancies.
This not 1912 when there was no birth control available and you had nine mouths to feed. Margaret Sanger must be over turning in her grave, so much for the battle for birth control. It seems that some women still rely on abortion as their method of birth control. I know several women, friends, that had multiple abortions. And some of these friends struggle to conceive later, ironic isn’t it. I am sure too, that of the 60,0000 abortions, that Dr. Tiller alone perform, only a tiny percentage were rape/incest pregancies, especially when Tiller specialized in late term abortion - so much for not forcing the victim to carry the fetus of the rapist argument. I think that the majority of us would not have an issue in the case of rape and incest when the abortion is done in the first trimester. But to crush the skull of a baby or to leave a baby to die on top of soiled linen, because mommy changed her mind… does not mortify you? I would not walk away from an animal needing medical care, let alone a baby - human being.
I do not feel sorry for a man that lived high on the hog, as an abortionist.
you contradict yourself. be reasonable. how can you make the first statement so emphatically and in your second call him a killer?
Made millions? You saw his income tax returns?
It has been reported on the news … and a late term abortion in his office would have cost you $5000.00. Do the math.
First of all, you need to link all these outlandish claims. How do you know how much money Dr. Tiller made and how many abortions he actually performed?
Secondly, even if your stats are correct, Dr. Tiller was one of three doctors in this country who performed late term abortions. One of three. So he would have had a lot of women, coming in from all states, who needed his services.
Maybe you would rather see these women die. Or their babies born to suffer for hours or days and die regardless. The abortions he performed were in cases of severe abnormality or threat to a woman’s life or health.
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/33826_Phone_Number_in_Roeders_Car_Belongs_to_Woman_Convicted_in_Abortion_Clinic_Bombing_Plot
phone number found on dashboard of Roehder’s car is not just one at Operation Rescue, but that of the woman who shot Tiller previously.
Dr. Tiller’s late-term abortions were done in situations in which pregnancies had gone terribly wrong. CNN, for example, has carried a story about a woman who carried a baby in a planned pregnancy, but late in the pregnancy, it was discovered that baby had a genetic complication which caused its brain not to form. The baby would die as soon as it was born. The mother was, in essence, serving as its life-support system. The grief over this later-term news created a huge level of psychological distress. (Not just a minor level of inconvenience.)
It’s these kinds of difficult issues that Dr. Tiller’s procedures dealt with. In many ways, Dr. Tiller’s procedures are more justifiable in many ways than aborting a pregnancy early just because it’s inconvenient. While Dr. Tiller’s work can be twisted to sound particularly heinous, in many ways it may have been some of the most justifiable of all the abortion procedures in the country because only the most difficult, medically difficult cases came to him, not just the kids with “inconvenient” pregnancies. The women who came to him tended to have very unusual, difficult situations to deal with. They had not just put off the inevitable.
I don’t think I want bureaucrats deciding when a woman can or cannot end a pregnancy.
I would like abortion to be rare, and I would like having one (or not having one) to be between a woman, her conscience, and a doctor. You want to work on reducing them? Share information about options and why you feel it is not a good idea.
One you start saying “yes maybe here maybe there” you open the door to a process that cannot be stopped. Rules must be made and enforced.
I dont want a bunch of lawyers, auditors, bureaucrats and members of the general public in my business. They are there enough, more all the time.
Have a baby if you want. If you dont want to, dont. Dont expect me to pay for it, and dont tell me about it one way or the other.
Also, why are people so loathe to trust women to make fair and rational choices? These same untrustworthy women will become mothers, caring for these kids after birth. Dont trust them while pregnant, but give them a baby? Really?
A silent war is being waged against women. Radical anti-choice extremists are using fear tactics - acid, bombings, arson, and even murder. - to limit women’s access to legal health care. This is domestic terrorism!
Dr. George Tiller, was one of my heroes. Dr. George Tiller was my hero because he stood up for what he believed was right under great threat to his own personal safety.
I have my own personal story, as do millions of women across this country. I also worked at a clinic, counseling women on the very difficult decision they have to make and supporting them throughout their procedure. I attended a National Abortion Federation conference and heard first hand from brave health care professionals what it was like before and after Roe v.Wade. For years I have been aware of the dangers of working at a Women’s clinic that provides abortion services.
Prochoice.org gives many examples of the terrorist tactics that anti-choice extremists use. Here are just a few:
•Since 1993, anti-abortion extremists have murdered or attempted to murder 11 reproductive healthcare providers.
•Over 200 arsons and bombings have been committed against reproductive health care clinics since the mid-1970s.
•Since 1992 about 100 butyric acid attacks have been committed against abortion facilities, disrupting services, closing clinics, and harassing patients and staff.
•Letters threatening anthrax poisoning were first used to terrorize and disrupt reproductive health care clinics in October 1998, just days after the murder of abortion provider Dr. Barnett Slepian.
This must stop! Campaign for Gender Equality http://www.campaignforgenderequality.org believes that there can be no equality without safe and secure access to reproductive health care for all women. We send our deepest condolences to Dr. Tiller’s wife, Jeanne, their four children and 10 grandchildren, and his family and his co-workers, and call for an end to clinic violence and murder.
it is a very sad thing for everyone concerned.
I read on ASC News site that Dr. Tiller estimated for the year 2003 he performed 350-400 late term abortions at the cost of $6000.00 each. So while becoming such a humanitarian, he was also becoming a millionaire. Sort of like Al Gore with the billions he stands to make with his investments in green technology.
Please be specific, was his fee $6,000 or was the procedure $6,000? There is a difference, you know.
You would think that were he as bad as some of you here seem to know he is he would have been asked to leave his church.
But then that would require rational thought.