9-11 Conspiracy Nuts Persist [Updated]
By Larry Johnson on June 14, 2009 at 8:15 AM in 9/11, Current Affairs, Larry Johnson, Terrorism
(bumped up from last night)
I am sure I am opening a can of worms here, but what the hell. The U.S. Government did not plan or execute the attacks on 9-11. Here’s the simple truth–the Bush Administration entered office dismissing terrorism as a significant threat and devoted most of its energies to promoting a ballistic missile defense. They ignored warnings from Richard Clarke and the CIA, Condi Rice demoted Richard Clarke, who had been in charge of coordinating interagency counter terrorism policy, and President Bush waited until September to convene a meeting to sketch the outlines of his Administration’s counter terrorism policy.
When 9-11 happened the Bushies recognized they faced political peril for their negligence. That’s why they suddenly become more Catholic than the Pope on the issue of fighting terrorists. That’s why they fought having a 9-11 Commission. They failed to protect America from terrorism but eventually persuaded most Americans that Bush’s number one priority was protecting America from terrorists.
But that is too logical, too simple. Some Americans prefer a complex conspiracy. We do not want to believe that Government, by virtue of its size and multi-layered bureaucracies, is inherently incompetent. Nope. We want conscious, organized malevolence.
Here is one of the more recent conspiracy nuts:
Here’s the basic problem with Gage–he has zero experience with actually doing controlled demolitions. People like Gage do not understand that a controlled demolition is the result of weeks of work, lots of detonation cord (aka DetCord) and visible explosives. You cannot hide the preparation required to do a controlled demolition.
Also, let’s ignore the challenge of prewiring three massive buildings–WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7. Plus you have to place the explosives in the towers in two different precise locations so that the demolitions start at the points where the planes struck the towers. Let’s not forget we need the hijackers to cooperate and hit their “marks”. You can’t have the pilot of the plane that hits the North Tower hitting the 50th floor when you have place the explosives around the 70th.
Did I mention how good the Government is at keeping a secret? They have kept us in the dark about black prisons, torture in Abu Ghraib and Bagram, and . . . Whoops!! I guess the Government is not that good at keeping secrets.
Here are a couple of fascinating videos debunking the conspiracy crazies:
and this:
We know for a fact that four airplanes were hijacked by Saudi and Egyptian extremists with ties to Osama Bin Laden. We know that three of those planes struck buildings. The planes striking the World Trade Center were clearly visible and recorded from multiple angles.
There is no denying that the Bush Administration used the tragedy of 9-11 to gin up a case for war in Iraq. But let’s not forget Bush could not have achieved this without the full cooperation of the media. That wasn’t a conspiracy per say. The mainstream media just prefers access to power brokers and invites to White House Christmas parties rather than run the risk of being excluded or cut off. The incompetence actually is pretty easy to explain. But the truth is banal. It lacks the pizzazz of a Government directed effort to hijack four planes, carry out near simultaneous attacks on three targets and initiate the controlled demolition of three World Trade Center structures with cameras rolling.
Yep. That makes sense.
For the sane among us there are always the facts to consider. I recommend the Debunking 9-11 site.
UPDATE: I encourage you to take a look at what is required to execute a controlled demolition of a large building. Take a look at the site linked here. There is no evidence whatsoever that there was any work to pre-weaken the WTC towers or WTC 7. A controlled demolition requires that, among other things.
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Don’t lump all people who question what happened on 9/11 together as conspiracy theorists.
There are a great number of people–including military and intelligence and the 9/11 Commissioners themselves–who question the findings of the 9/11 commission because information sought was obstructed and/or not fully provided. There are many questions left unanswered, which continues to breathe life into the “conspiracy” theories that the government was involved, either pre-attack or post-attack in covering up what really happened.
Who questions the 9/11 Commission Report, either in part or in whole? Who are these “conspiracy nuts?”
People like these:
http://www.wanttoknow.info/officialsquestion911commissionreport
And people like this:
The senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission - John Farmer - states in a new book that the official story of 9/11 “almost entirely untrue”.
and
If you think that Farmer has gone nuts, you should see what his colleagues on the 9/11 Commission say.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/just-like-with-iraq-facts-regarding-911.html
And, this:
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2008/01/whitewash.html
Rice gave truthful testimony? Rummy too? I can only hope the classified annex to the 911 report is not redacted from history.
That is like the conspiracy theory about Cheney being the brains behind the Italian Letter affair.
mountainaires, a pol survival is based on subterfuge, and the line that I can’t dismiss, is one from Tyler Drumheller’s book describing being evacuated from Langley that day and saying with some authority it was UBL…
There are many in the trenches who know the antics that went on behind the scenes with the 911 commsion and who Bush fought tooth and nail NOT to have one. Bush and Cheney not testifying under oath but instead behind closed doors and the only truth I know is Bush was stuck reading “My Pet Goat”. The next thing ya know is we elect “the son of a goat hearder”… shit never ends but always happens.
This is what puzzles the hell out of me–Bush could not have achieved what he did without the full corporation of the media. Obama could not have achieved what he has so far without the full coporation of the media. Is the F—-n media Republican or Democrat leaning? Is the media simply in the pocket of those in power at any given term or cycle? Is the media simply ass-kissers of whoever is in authority? What a frigging bunch of wimps.
We often think about the media as something that knows what’s real but tells us something different. There’s certainly an element of that. But I think it’s just as true that they’re taken in by their own illusions.
The media are for profit organizations, so their interested in their bottom line. I’d say it’s the case of them following the money.
They are corporate leaning.
Exactly right! Heck, all anyone has to do where I live is deal with the motor vehicles department, and he or she would KNOW government incompetence. It is unconscious (at least many of the employees appear unconscious), DISorganized malevolent incompetence.
I thought all these 9/11 conspiracy theories had been laid to rest. I am so happy I am not teaching research writing any more. I can’t imagine how many poorly researched papers I would have to read about this if I were.
That’s why I laugh at conspiracy theories and movies that show carefully planned heists and CIA plans going off like clockwork. Besides incompetence, there is just plain chance and illogical human actions to screw things up.
My field is movies and entertainment. The perfect shoot is the rare one. I’d love to be the fly on the wall and hear the stories Larry and his buddies tell of perfectly planned operations that ran off the rails due to unplanned, unexpected events. The dialogue might go like this:
“Who the hell is that?”
“Well what’s she doing here?”
“Never mind that, how can we get rid of her?”
Always remember Robbie Burns:
The best-laid plans o mice and men gang aft agley and leave us naught but grief and pain for promised joy.
Or as my mother said in a different context:
Don’t do anything you wouldn’t want to read on the front page of the newspaper.
The problem with 9/11 conspiracy nuts is that they’ve latched onto and conflated so many crack-pot theories that anyone raising a question is now immediately categorized as one of them. While I don’t buy into any of the fringe conspiracy theories that have been spun out, I’m not entirely comfortable with the completeness of the official version of events, either. As the nightmare day recedes more deeply into our past, a suspicion still haunts me that our 9/11 truth–like so many of our historical truths–remains only partial.
Perhaps that’s simply the nature of such events? Maybe the emotional scale of such a thing is just too much for the mind to process.
The comment suggesting bush ignored terror when first elected is absurd……2 embassies were attacked…the cole was attacked.. and the wtc was already attacked..under clinton..it was in fact, bill clinton that ignored them….he had a chance to get bin laden from sudan…..then bin laden was actually in the scope of a cia assassin and clinton didnt take the shot…this isnt partisan….it is the facts…
Of course you’re partisan, if you weren’t you would have excoriated Bush for missing Bin Laden at Tora Bora.
At least have the courage to own up to your biases.
sorry.that dog dont hunt….tora bora was indeed awful…however..bin laden had weeks to prepare….under clinton…bin laden was actually in the cross hairs of a high powered rifle..and while he was in sudan…he was under house arrest, and was offered to clinton….clinton said no.several times in fact…..bush certainly didnt handle tora bora well….but if clinton had done his job…..bin laden wouldnt have been at tora bora……any more questions?
We had special forces a hilltop or two away from bin laden, but they (the SF) pulled back because they had no support.
Guys who were there can’t even talk about it without hiding their identity. He has to go by the moniker, Dalton Fury.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1072109/We-bin-Laden-Tora-Bora—I-aborted-mission-says-elite-Delta-Force-Commander.html
Bush ignored the USS Cole bombing, saying of a military response that he was “tired of swatting flies.” Check your dates on the Cole bombing - this should help clarify who ignored what.
It was the INCOMING administration that sat on its hands. Well, there was quite a lot of brush clearing going on at Bush’s Texas ranch.
the cole was attacked 2 months befor bush took office.any more questions?…and I notice you didnt address the first wtc attack and the 2 embassy attacks…why not?
So Bush can’t take action on something that’s only two months old? Yeah, smart that.
And the guy who planned the first WTC attack are IN JAIL in a supermax prison in Florence, Colorado!
Take off your elephant blinder, now and then, eh? Please?
Yes, but they didn’t have the final report regarding who did it until after Bush took office. And then he did nothing.
sorry……..but as you poin t out…..it did take some time to finish the final report…..but it was known within 4 days who was responsible….try reading the 9-11 report on this matter…it will clear it up for you…
Facts?
Apparently far-right conservatives are putting together an alternate history of the Bush administration to match up with their alternate history of the Clinton administration. I suppose believing in it is a fairly simple matter, once any contrary information has been discounted as liberal B.S.
The flack in the media at the time was Clinton would leave it to Bush to continue to persue the Cole investigation.
marktarheel,
Michael Scheuer thinks so too.
If this is true I want to hear it from the guy that had his finger on the trigger. ’cause happiness is a warm gun… and I would have done life in Levenworth just for the shot, even if it meant not obeying a direct order.
So, unless you are a falconeer, put a sock in it.
Im glad you agree with me…..I too would have taken bin laden out
OK, I admit it: I did it! Can I get some airtime too, and maybe a movie and a book deal? Please!
I just have one question that I would love an answer to and in fact I believe there was a website offering a million dollars to anyone who could answer this. How can steel and concrete buildings fall AT THE SPEED OF GRAVITY without the use of explosives?
I became a 9/11 conspiracy nut after reviewing all available evidence and I read the entire 9/11 Commission Report. As a law student, I thought it was a joke and have been waiting for a sequel where they actually investigate stuff ever since. I am still waiting. I find it highly insulting that the biggest criminal act in our country’s history was not investigated according to proper criminal procedure. jmo
Once the steel supporting beams were eaten through due to fuel burning at incredibly highly temperatures and running down the building from the point of impact, once one or several of these key support beams went, the whole thing collapsed at the speed of gravity. No explosives were needed. Bin Laden and his planners knew this would happen if the hits happened correctly, and they pretty much did.
No conspiracy necessary. It is simple structural mechanics and chemistry.
I remember a video of Bin Laden saying that he did not expect the towers to fall down. And I think he was an engineering student.
Direct quote:
“Due to my experience in this field [bin Laden's family made its fortune in the construction industry], I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all we had hoped for.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/1365307/Damned-by-his-gloating-smile.html
I was offered an engineering scholarship but I turned it down. I would just really like to see the whole thing investigated properly. Like someone said below, means, motive and opportunity. I don’t believe 11 men living in a cave could have pulled something like that off. And where was our Air force for the 2 1/2 hours the planes were cruising the sky?
Jet fuel is essentially kerosene-grade. It doesn’t burn at incredibly high temperature, except inside of an operating turbine engine. In the open air it burns at a temperature of only 549.5°F. The melting point of structural steel is over 2,000° F.
The jet fuel wasn’t the only thing burning. The fuel served as a catalyst which ignited other combustible items in the building. Steel loses half its strength at 1100 degrees. The collective temperature rose to over 1800 degrees. Not enough to melt the steel, but more than enough to bring down the entire structure due to the resulting heat transfer which distorted the steel’s structural integrity.
It wasn’t once “one or two support beams” went. If you watch the architects who built that building talk about it, the building was built on purpose to be able to withstand an airplane flying into it. It was double triple quadruple reinforced. The architects said that one or two support beams collapsing would be like poking a hole in a mosquito netting. It would not affect the other components of the building. The architects who built that were not as inept as the US government is, I am sure.
No, it wasn’t. The WTC was not designed to prevent a pancake collapse, which is what happened on 9/11.
Even with a pancake collapse, according to PBS’s why the towers fell, the center support beams should have been standing. They shouldn’t have just disappeared the way they did.
The pankage theory is kookier than any conspiracy you can think up. Work in construction and you’ll soon realize something had to take out close to half of the building in one flash. We’re talking reinforced concrete with an overabundance of support beams from the first to the last floor. This means that NO fire could get to the beams at all. Sorry, but a fire, no matter if it was a a billion degrees, would not be able to take it all out at once with the dispersion area that happened with the jet fuel on that day. There’s a reason no building has ever fallen from fire.
Let it be clear that the nutcases are the ones who believe the government. Don’t believe anyone. Just go work in construction on highrises and see for yourself. People that don’t even know what’s a bearing wall have zero credibility.
Yep. But the issue doesn’t have to do with the common misunderstanding that steel beams must melt to weaken and cause collapse. It has to do with numerous reports that pools of molten steel were actually observed days later and even weeks later.
This site discusses the issue of molten steel in terms exceeding my level of expertise, but has a number of links to witness accounts:
http://www.takeourworldback.com/smokinggun.htm
The design of the the WTT’s was such that 4 internal steel columns provide a majority of the integrity of the stuctures.
A perponderance of physics does not a conspiracy make. The speed of gravity? LOL
Wiki-speed of gravity.
Each floor was detached from the main structure of the building due to the distortion of the steel from the heat (specifically the weakened joints that held the structure together). The floors fell one on top of the other, each fall far exceeding the load the resulting floor could carry. It’s not unusual that the building fell at free fall speed due to this kind of progressive collapse.
It is unusual in that they were the first steel and concrete sky scrapers ever to collapse from fire, so I imagine it would be hard to compare them to the speed at which other steel skyscrapers fell from fire, since it has never happened before or since to my knowledge.
A pretty extensive study of the fsilure mechanism of those steel beams was performed by enginers/material science experts at WPI (Worceter Polythecnic Univerisity.
They determined that it was due to euthectic etching
((melting along grain boundaries) to to the precense of sulfur in the steel. The sulfur in combination with iron oxide formed a eutchnic compound with a much lower meting point.
A good exampale of a eutechtic alloy is common electronic solder, a 60/40 tin-lead allow. Lead melts at ~621 degress F, tin at ~450 degrees F, however a 60/40 alloy of the two results in a metal alloy with a melting point of 361 degrees F.
An ecerpt from that study…
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w6m00uuhvn16tnu2/fulltext.pdf?page=1
“Rapid deterioration of the steel was a
result of heating with oxidation in combination
with intergranular melting due
to the presence of sulfur. The formation
of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and
iron sulfide lowers the temperature at
which liquid can form in this steel. This
strongly suggests that the temperatures
in this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000ºC, forming the eutectic
liquid by a process similar to making a
“blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge.”
Sorry for the poor editing.
A pretty extensive study of the failure mechanism of those steel beams was performed by engineers/material science experts at WPI (Worceter Polythecnic Univerisity.
They determined that it was due to euthectic etching
((melting along grain boundaries) to to the precense of sulfur in the steel. The sulfur in combination with iron oxide formed a eutchnic compound with a much lower meting point.
A good exampale of an eutechtic alloy is common electronic solder, a 60/40 tin-lead alloy. Lead melts at ~621 degress F, tin at ~450 degrees F, however a 60/40 alloy of the two results in a metal alloy with a melting point of 361 degrees F.
An excerpt from that study…
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w6m00uuhvn16tnu2/fulltext.pdf?page=1
“Rapid deterioration of the steel was a
result of heating with oxidation in combination
with intergranular melting due
to the presence of sulfur. The formation
of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and
iron sulfide lowers the temperature at
which liquid can form in this steel. This
strongly suggests that the temperatures
in this region of the steel beam approached ~1,000ºC, forming the eutectic
liquid by a process similar to making a
“blacksmith’s weld” in a hand forge.”
there has always been..and will always be conspiracy theories about everything.
Oh, please. The so-called conspiracy theorists have hashed over every single one of the points skimmed over here in excruciating detail and can challenge them all with strong, reasonable arguments. Dr David Ray Griffin has more moral authority and more intellectual fire power in his little finger than any mainstream defender of the government as bumbling, incompetent idiots. Richard Gage, I believe is an architect or architectural engineer who knows how buildings are built and how they come down. He is a very competent, very convincing professional.
And I suppose the Democrats were so inspired by Obama’s outstanding leadership as an Illinois legislator and a first-term Senator, that they just rallied behind this multi-racial, multi-cultural nobody in a last ditch effort to save us from ourselves. No conspiracy there either.
Cheez….Anybody who really believes this whole scene is one big accident can’t see past the tip of his nose….wherever he is, the US Senate, the CIA, the Federal Reserve, Main St, wherever.
9-11 Conspiracy Nuts Persist : NO QUARTER…
[15] Ten days after the 9/11 attacks, after quoting the above passage, Timothy Noah concludes a post in his “Chatterbox” feature at Slate: “Johnson’s analysis, we now see, was bold, persuasive, and 100 percent wrong. ……
Thanks for sharing Larry.
The simulation video was dramatic and strangely compelling. So much energy being dispersed out to the sides along the wings. I guess I always assumed it would be predominately forward from the body and only residually out at the wings. Which shows my total lack of plane engineering knowledge.
The Richard Gage lecture on the bogus 9/11 Commission was linked at, gasp, Alex Jones’ site.
And I suppose that immediately disqualifies Gage and fellow theorists such as physics prof, Dr. Jones,
ex LA investigator, Michael Ruppert, hundreds of
other scientists/academics, trained military pilots,
architects/structrual engineers, or Dr. Griffin, who
penned, “The New Pearl Harbor,” on a whim, no doubt, and a desire to gratify some bizarre personal agenda. Even demolition experts are weighing in.
All calling for a new investigation. They are not giving out unfounded opinions willy-nilly; they are
giving evidence based on the laws of physics that they have attempted to duplicate in a laboratory situation when possible…and that is the only evidence a scientific mind will accept. The pilots know that no amateur could fly those airplanes so expertly, especially the “plane” that hit the Pentagon.
Since there is no way to physically reenact 9/11,
we are left with empirical observation and mathematics to plot the odd behavior which transpired on that fateful day. A day that changed America forever–economically, socially and politcally.
Methinks me spies means, opportunity and a glaring motive. None so blind as those who will not see. I hate to lapse into cliches but reason just flies under the radar in American thought.
Well, let’s see some evidence that an airliner actually hit the pentagon. OK, considering the size of the hole, maybe a small plane, maybe an airplane model, or better yet, a drone or rocket; or maybe even a vanishing plane like the one that crashed in Pennsylvania.
Did they ever publish a passenger list of the Pentagon flight, or interview any relatives of those passengers? I’ve always wondered.
Almost all of the 9/11 “truthers” have no knowledge of engineering and physics. And the people that claim they have advanced training probably only took physics 101 in college. I have graduate degrees in aerospace engineering, I know plenty of structural civil engineers in academia and industry that laugh at these morons. Trust me, the truthers are the butt of the joke among engineers.
Hey, whose engineering jobs depend on not rocking the boat? Perhaps the same ones who in addition to physics 10l have also earned advanced degrees in aerospace engineering where they learn about the suspension of the laws of physics so that solid steel girders melt at the incredibly low burning temperature of jet fuel. Why should I trust you, and who cares how smug you engineers are? The credentials of the major 911 writers are very impressive.
Who said steel needed to melt in order to lose its structural stability? Steel 101: At 1100 degrees F, steel loses 50% of its strength. The jet fuel, burning anywhere between 800 to 1500 degrees, became a catalyst, igniting fire throughout the building which raised the temperature, according to NIST reports, to over 1800 degrees F. The resulting heat transfer through the support was more than enough to distort the steel so that it loses its structural integrity.
So you’re saying that this heat was sufficient to distort the steel symmetrically resulting in a perpendicular collapse that looks exactly like controlled demolition; and that this distortion and collapse was precisely mirrored when a plane hit the second tower; and that the third tower collapsed exactly like the other two without having been struck by an airplane?
The fire was not throughout the building but localized, according to firemen on the scene–prior to the detonations!
Taking ADVANTAGE of a bad situation to push WAR has happened more than once (if I remember my World History)
Planning contingencies for all kinds of scenarios are what whole companies of military practice every day of the year (practically) at some remote wilderness camp somewhere .
I’m sure with all of the threats, there were battalions ready for such an event. Well maybe not using AIRPLANES as bombs although I think that was something Condi ignored?
but really - general U.S. ineptitude at the LOCAL levels helped the creeps as well
who rents a plane and doesn’t want to learn to land????
(um that would raise a lot of red flags to ME)
I don’t think the W cabal (personally) proved to be smart enough (mission accomplished) to pull 911 off, imho.
but they, along with a lot of (katrina type) others made it work in BIG WAYS for these pilots
sad
This is what really got me in that 9/11 truther movie - when they were talking about the massive force of the explosions that left building and bone fragments in places so far away that people were finding them for at least months.
And the debunking 9/11 site says:
What really makes this argument absurd is the amount of explosives needed to turn that much concrete into dust.
I just really don’t think that a concrete and steel building would be largely turned into dust by simply falling. If it is so tough to turn concrete into dust than the force of gravity should have taken longer to work. It should have started out slowly and unsurely and picked up speed as the weight grew. It wouldn’t have been so stable that the firefighters chose its base to set up a camp and then all of a sudden a couple hours later just pulverize into thin air. The movie asked, “What force would cause a building to eject concrete pillars horizontally?” It was some type of explosives. Maybe not the commercial kind but all I know is that my laptop logs me in when it sees my face and my kid’s ipod switches the view of the screen when you turn it upside down. They didn’t have anything like that 10 years ago. Technology is amazing, that is all I have to say.
Among other curiosities, I’m puzzled by numerous credible eye-witness accounts of pools of molten steel found 70 feet below the WTC rubble heaps. Jet fuel and burning building materials would never have gotten hot enough to reduce steel to a liquid state. That’s just one of a number of troubling little details.
The melting steel is the most misunderstood aspect of 9/11. It was not necessary for the steel to melt in order for the building to collapse.
That statement is strictly hypothetical because no steel skyscraper has ever collapsed before. So we can conjecture however we want to about what steel skyscrapers need to endure before they collapse. We won’t really know because we haven’t seen it before or since and when it happened the government put all the evidence on trucks asap and hauled it off to FreshKills or somewhere then sold it to China. So we really missed our opportuntity to learn in an other than hypothetical way what it really takes for a steel skyscraper to collapse from fire. So anyone’s conjecture about what kind of fire would collapse a steel sky scraper is really just conjecture.
You’re correct that actual melting wasn’t necessary. When the horizontal support beams of the floors where the fire occurred became heated to a sufficient degree, they lost strength to the point where they would no longer bear the load.
But the issue here isn’t that they would have had to have melted to collapse. The issue is numerous reports from credible witnesses that there were pools of molten steel collected under the debris, still glowing orange-hot a week later. The temperatures achieved by the fire alone shouldn’t have been hot enough to cause that result. One might have expected melted light alloys from the body of the aircraft, but that would have very quickly cooled and solidified.
Ziggy, point in fact that a full 2 months later you could smell the acrid smell of death and distruction all the way up to the GWB, 16 floors up with the windows closed.
Please.
I certainly believe you. I’m very sure those of us living outside of NY have only a dim understanding of the range of traumatic experiences people living nearby went through.
Absolutely, Ziggy, but it’s far from a “little” detail (although I get the irony).
Heather,
Your ignorance on this matter is frightening. You watch silly movies and yet have not a clue about explosives and how they are made and work. The force of the building collapsing on itself was sufficient to expel the material so forcefully.
Come back to basics and simple things. What is required to demolish three massive buildings in the WTC complex using pre-wired explosives? You can’t hide that. Get your mind around that first.
All of us are ignorant about what happens when steel skyscapers collapse, because other than demolitions or maybe earthquakes, etc. it has not happened before. Can you find another steel skyscraper anywhere that blew out steel poles so that they were embedded horizontally into other buildings blocks away? If there is such a building or event I apologize but I’ve never heard of it.
UBL was an engineer by training. At a basic level he would understand the order of force it would take to bring these structures down. That was not the point.
The asymmetrical “ping” function for national security was broken. Why?
Mr. Johnson expressed concern recently, that the inter-agency aspects of counter-”insert choice”, is not up to par, with the walls re-constituting along predictable lines of authority. Not good.
What is sadly true and deeply disturbing is the reality that people will believe almost anything if it is couched in the pretext of fear.
The main problem I have with 911, is how did this government miss 4 different basic threads and not connect them… Oops! They did…”They knew”.
What I want to know is, are we honoring the the last thoughts that past through the minds of those that perished from that day up today, with actions in keeping with this nations survival?
Oh, it is times like this that I miss Richard Feynman. Remember his O-rings press conference?
Where are the latter-day Feynmans?
I am sorry–I’m still going with the government incompetence theory. Yes, there was probably enough information out there that if examined correctly could have made it possible to prevent the tragedy. Yes, the Bush information no doubt did not want the government incompetency to be revealed. That administration–as is the current administration–was all about creating an image to go along with their particular agenda.
You can argue the physics all you want. The fact of the matter is that the buildings fell the way they fell. It would be good to keep examining, but mostly to know how to build stronger buildings that could withstand the trauma of a plane flying into them.
I know that people knew things that should have raised all kinds of flags, but I also know that they were too lazy, didn’t want to go to the trouble, it wasn’t in their job description to say anything, etc. Or most of all, to believe that this terrorism was being planned didn’t match their belief system in some way, so they discounted their suspicions.
No matter how much I distrust the Bush/Cheney administration and the people working under them, I cannot believe they would have purposely done this. And how in the world does anyone fit the hijackers into this conspiracy? Answer that for Larry.
As usual, I think in terms of human nature. Having taught in high school, I quickly learned one truth. People cannot keep their mouths shut. If something happened at school–a theft, vandalism, a prank gone terribly bad–all the administration usually had to do was put feelers out and wait. Someone always spoke to someone. With all the people it would take to carry out this conspiracy, don’t you think someone would have said something by now. Give me the name of one person who can give credible testimony about the way even one part of the conspiracy was carried out.
To think that a government agency would want to commit something like this is a horrific thought. But I believe it’s just as horrific to imagine how darned incompetent our government has become. If we had people able to carry out this conspiracy, why in the HE#@ can’t we fix New Orleans–and why couldn’t we really plan and carry out the invasion of Iraq in a more competent manner? How is all the rebuilding going that was promised?
I’d be more inclined to believe they covered up shortcuts and inferior materials used in construction of the towers. There is a reason they got the debris out of the country as fast as they could! So the question is…Who supplied the materials for construction? Was it a Haliburton subsidiary? Some major Bush donors? All far more likely than the BS put out in the 9/11 commission report of insulation being blown off…
I don’t believe it was a conspiracy, although the truthers can make a plausible case.
I think why, in my own opinion, it is believable to so many, is that we are constantly told we have the best military and intelligence in the world and that we are the best and brightest. Then, on 9/11 we were brought to our knees by a handful of losers.
Our intelligence failed. Our military *failed* on the sense that we were hit repeatedly. Our president *failed* in the sense that he sat and read My Pet Goat in front of our eyes, and they ignored all the warnings. And it appeared that the people on flight 93 did more to stop another attack then the best military in the world. (not saying the military did anything wrong, but just that it can appear that way)
Sure there are always those who will believe the *conspiracy* and those who promote it, to profit in their own right, but I think for a lot of people it is just so hard to grasp what happened, the why and the how.
Perhaps it is easier to believe there was a conspiracy for profit, then that our country was *brought down* by those 24.
And for all the intelligence and experts in the country, these guys got through security with box cutters…. Although, they might have been acceptable items at the time?
(in movies we always see the military jumping to action to thwart attacks, etc. but we didn’t see that in real life - which is the point i was trying to make)
“Our military *failed* on the sense that we were hit repeatedly.”
My grandfather was career Air Force and I’m positive that anyone in the Air Force would not have thought twice about dying if that is what it took on that day to deal with the planes. I don’t believe they “failed.” I believe they did exactly what they were told to do as they always do and that they were told to stand down, and that order came from Cheney who was running things from some bunker. I believe there was a witness to him telling the military to stand down as a plane approached the Pentagon.
And as someone who voted for Bush twice, I excused that for a long time. I was like, “He just didn’t want to give the order to shoot down civilian planes.” Well regardless, those planes should have been escorted. There should have been Air Force planes in the sky right next to them just like they do any other time any other plane goes majorly off course. It pisses me off that like with torture they try to blame the individual soldiers and then with this they try to blame the Air Force, for example, for failing. No, all those people followed all the orders they were given just like they do every day of their lives. The government is incompetent but last I heard the Air Force can send planes up in the air any time they want, unless they are told to stand down.
i’m not blaming the military, i am trying to make a point that i can see why some people think that it was a conspiracy, because our *best military in the world* didn’t thwart the attacks. i believe they were following orders, too. that is what they do. that is why people think it was a conspiracy, they believe the military was obeying orders to not intercept, or whatever. they didn’t stop the first, second or third planes from hitting (which, if it were what they *should do* could be considered a failure…)
“I believe they did exactly what they were told to do as they always do and that they were told to stand down, and that order came from Cheney who was running things from some bunker” which is what truthers believe, right?
I personally don’t know what to believe, but offical reports say they had over 45 minutes to respond. One plane even went halfway across the country before turning back. What was the holdup. Were they busy eating doughnuts?
As with any tragedy, there is an unfortunate sequence of events. It’s not usually just one thing, but a perfect storm. If Clinton hadn’t this and Bush hadn’t that, and so on.
I think we are all guilty at some point of having the child-like and naive notion that the military, president, and intelligence community could make us bullet proof as a country. However, all of these people are human beings. No matter the level of excellence they have achieved, human mistakes can and do happen. That is reality. I’d still bet on our people every time…but I know it’s not going to be absolute perfection. They do not have superpowers.
agreed.
and I think that we could have the best military and intelligence in the world, and it could be useless if we have security screeners at an airport who allow some terrorists to board planes with weapons. it is almost always human error. (and again, box cutters might have been acceptable at the time, not sure)
and that is again, why truthers can believe it a conspiracy. the chain of events that happened, the failings every step of the way, is almost unbelieveable. it is easier for some to believe it was a conspiracy, not that every single step of the way went wrong.
It isn’t necessarily easier to believe in the “conspiracy theory”. It’s not easy at all to accept that our government was so intent on creating a new Pearl Harbor (as referenced in PNAC) that they would be complicit in the murders of thousands of their own people.
And yet, much of what I’ve read and heard and seen from those who are working tirelessly to expose the truth tells me that our government did play a part in 9/11, and all the failings may very well have been part of it.
Is it easy for me to believe that? No, not even a little. Would it be easier to believe that we just had an incredibly incompetent government at the time? Yes, it would.
But the truth is sometimes much harder to believe than a lie. And while Larry may believe he knows the “simple truth”, I have a different opinion, as do many many others. And our opinion, and the research behind it, is as valid as the opinions of Larry and those who choose to believe in his simple truth.
And no, I’m not nuts.
The real conspiracy is the cover-up. And, I don’t like being referred to as a nut. There was no plane at the Pentagon, nothing in Shanksville. There had to be some complicity going on. I believe a Bush was also in charge of security at WTC. The Commission was a farce. On and on and on.
I sincerely doubt there is a “simple truth”. There is too much evidence to the contrary to accept that 9-11 was “simply” the work of a couple dozen Saudi and Egyptian terrorists, aided only by the incompetence of the Bush Administration.
Easier to believe that those Saudi and Egyptian terrorists did it all on their own, with a bunch of boxcutters.
One might say that those who believe in the “simple truth” are the nuts, rather than those who question and continue to seek for answers.
http://911truth.org/
http://www.ae911truth.org/
http://ny911truth.org/
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/
http://stj911.org/
http://911scholars.org/
I do remember President Clinton firing a missile at Osama Bin Laden and missing him by about ten minutes.
I also remember candidate George W. Bush making fun of firing 5 million dollar missiles at a ten dollar tent.
Look it up.
http://911proof.com/11.html
This is a link with links to about 50 eyewitnesses desccribing explosions of the sort that would be needed to weaken the building.
I’m not into “theories”; I just want answers and accountability- the 9/11 Commission ignored 70% of the families questions.
http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html
And no one was held accountable- instead, many of those who swore an Oath to defend the Constitution and “failed” to do their job received raises, bonuses, promotions, increased budgets and authority:
http://arabesque911.blogspot.com/2007/11/911-incompetence-sabotage-and.html
while whistleblowers like Sibel Edmonds and Robert Wright were marginalized and threatened:
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=sibel_edmonds
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=robert_wright
For Sale: West’s Deadly Nuclear Secrets
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3137695.ece
What’s being covered up?
Why does “former” CIA Agent Larry Johnson not care, if, as he says, he’s interested in defending the US against terrorism?
Let’s see what some other CIA retirees have to say:
“I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. … An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. … The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them.”
-William Christison - Former Director of the CIA’s Office of Regional and Political Analysis, overseeing 250 CIA analysts. 29-year CIA veteran.
“The final [9/11 Commission] report is ultimately a coverup. I don’t know how else to describe it.”
- Melvin Goodman, PhD - Former Division Chief of the CIA’s Office of Soviet Affairs and Senior Analyst from 1966 - 1990
“I think at simplest terms, there’s a cover-up. The 9/11 report is a joke. The question is: What’s being covered up? Is it gross malfeasance, gross negligence, misfeasance? … Now there are a whole bunch of unanswered questions. And the reason they’re unanswered is because this administration will not answer the questions. … I just want to reassert, what Scott [Ritter, former Major in the U.S. Marines Corps, former Chief Weapons Inspector for the United Nations Special Commission in Iraq] said and this is the bottom line for me, just as Hitler in 1933 cynically exploited the burning of the parliament building, the Reichstag, this is exactly what our President did in exploiting 9/11. The cynical way in which he played on our trauma, used it to justify attacking, making a war of aggression on a country that he knew had nothing to do with 9/11. That suffices for me, I think Scott is exactly right, that’s certainly an impeachable offense.”
-Raymond L. McGovern – Former Chairman, National Intelligence Estimates, which, according to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, “are the Intelligence Community’s most authoritative written judgments on national security issues.” Responsible for preparing the President’ Daily Brief (PDB) for Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. 27-year CIA veteran. Former U.S. Army Intelligence Officer.
You can find well over 1,000 very credible people who also question the government’s conspiracy theory at patriotsquestion911.com.
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
You clown. Both Ray and Mel are friends. I’ve spoken to them. We agree that the 9-11 commission whitewashed the Bush Administration failure to take steps before 9-11 to deal with the threat. That was incompetence not malfeasance. We also agree that it appears the Bushies did everything possible to shield the Saudis from any blowback. And we also agree that Bush used the attack to justify going to war with Iraq.
But that does not mean that the Administration knew an attack was coming on September 11th and allowed four planes to be hijacked by a deliberate decision. The Bushies certainly did not destroy the WTC complex. That is where you and your ilk are batshit bonkers out of your mind crazy.
Let’s here from a whistleblower who testified for 3 1/2 hours behind closed doors to the 9/11 Commission and then not one word of hers made it into the final report:
“I saw papers that show the U.S. knew al-Qaeda would attack cities with airplanes… I gave [the 9-ll Commission] details of specific investigation files, the specific dates, specific target information, specific managers in charge of the investigation. This is not hearsay. These are things that are documented.”
MRS. SIBEL EDMONDS (whistleblower and former top-level FBI translator who gave closed session testimony to the 9-11 Commission. The Bush/Cheney administration silenced Edmonds with a court gag order citing the rarely used “state secrets privilege”. Interview UK Independent 4/2/04)
If you analyze the government’s story closely, you will find that not one element of their conspiracy theory is credibly supported by the facts.
We need a new investigation into the events of 9/11/01.
Physics, facts and logic prove that the government’s conspiracy theory of 9/11 cannot be true.
The truth shall set us free. Love is the only way forward.
An Open Challenge to the MSM
Not too long ago, a group of international scientists published a paper (see link below) titled “Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trace Center Catastrophe.” The MSM would be doing a great service to investigate and report on this finding.
http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM
Thermite - a mixture of finely powdered aluminum and iron oxide that produces a very high temperature on combustion, used in welding and for incendiary bombs.
Jesus Christ. Let’s see, how was the World Trade Center built? A little bit of welding involved? Any chance that the could be the source for this dust?
I’ve read the paper and it proves zippo.
As someone who believes in critical thinking, I certainly respect your opinion. But a bit more substantiation will be required if you wish to win me over to your side. Can you supply any links that support your theory?
I was once a highly-regarded intelligence officer. The 9/11 affair has spawned a conspiracy theory industry that rivals that of the JFK assassination. For the most virulent try http://www.globalresearch.ca and browse - the inmates are running the asylum.
Yeah, I agree. The revelation of the existence of a new form of highly reactive military nanotech thermite got my attention, but there was actually nothing conclusive about analysis of the dust samples–only suggestive, and that’s apparently a matter of interpretation. Some 9/11 conspiracy theorists seem convinced that there’s hard evidence.
(Sorry. My reply was intended to follow Mr. Johnson’s comment.)
>>I’ve read the paper and it proves zippo.
Fascinating . . .
Can anybody say “Treason,” under Article III Section 3 of the Constitution, in attempting, willingly and with malice aforethought, to cover-up an act of war and give aid and comfort to the enemies that actually architected and coordinated the 9/11/01 black op terrorist attacks?
The gig is up Mr. Johnson. The only question is who is going to go down with those who decided to put the advanced nano-thermite materials in the buildings ( look up the discovery of this material in the peer-reviewed paper at the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal and go see how the VP reacted to receiving this information at our wearechangela you tube site) and coordinate the multiple overlapping mimetic wargames and terror drills that served as cover for the operational conduct of the attacks.
The American people of moral and intellectual integrity are demanding you come clean soon Mr. Arnold. How about today?
Oh yeah, while you are at it, let’s see if you can honestly answer a version of the question I posed to former NSA and CIA boss Hayden when he was in town last year:
How is it possible that Mossad was in place in New Jersey to both film and celebrate the attacks as they got underway, while Hayden and the rest of the top tier of the acting civilian, military and intelligence command structure found out about the 1st hit on the towers from watching CNN or another TV News station and then immediately, after numerous warnings from many sources, thought of pilot error and went back to doing what they were doing?
Is that possible?
If it is, how did Mossad know it was something to celebrate about while Bush, Myers, Hayden etc. went about their business?
I’m a proud Jewish man, so no ‘anti-semitic’ or ’self-hating Jew slander’ will work in helping you try to dismiss dealing with the facts. In fact, the worst, most violently destructive anti-semitic conspiracy theory to human lives over the last 8 years is the one Mr. Johnson continues to push, that 19 Arab men with boxcutters stood down the FBI, NORAD and the laws of physics.
Get a plausible deniability alibi quick Mr Johnson, since your massively limited ‘incompetence’ hang-out is getting more limited by the moment.
To think that Chinese and Russian intelligence lack the curiosity to study dust samples after reading this paper is naive.
Larry, congrats on having the single worst haircut among cable media talking heads. You may even have Blago beat. ON 9/11, you clearly have some bias which keeps you from confronting the evidence in an intellectually honest manner. Hey Larry, why doesnt Osama Bin Goldstein put out videos anymore? All we get is audio now. Dupes like you bought into the obvious frauds, im surprised “Osama” went to so much trouble to protect the ghost.
Say hi to Dov Zakheim for me Larry.
Mr. Johnson’s silence around the multiple mimetic wargames and terror drills
reminds me of another ‘former’ CIA guy Robert Baer, who took every opportunity to evade them when I asked him about it. At least Baer had the self-respect to attempt to deal with the Mossad set-up in New Jersey, even though his explanation would be laughable if we weren’t dealing with a treasonous matter of life and death, war and peace.
See that here: WeAreChangeLA debriefs CIA Case Officer Robert Baer about apparent Mossad and White House 9/11 foreknowledge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z5BnihtWfs&feature=channel_page
p.s. The National Reconaissance Office’s drill, apparently run by the CIA, of a plane running into their building got started as the attacks got started and all “non-essential” personnel were then told to go home.
p.p.s. Mr Johnson, why don’t you come join those of us patriots living together in this thing called reality. Our country and Liberty cannot take the deceptive back-stabbing anymore.
Two points. NTSB supplied data that does not support the government version of events at the Pentagon. The flight path of the aircraft purported to be flight 77, as established by 13 eye witnesses, is incompatible with the downed light poles and the path of damage in the Pentagon.
Peer-reviewed research documented by Dr. Niels Herritt and Dr. Jones and 7 others, show residues of nano-thermite in great quantity in the dust of the WTC buildings, along with very small particles of unreacted nano-thermite throughout Manhattan dust samples. Nano-thermite is not something you whip up in an Afghani cave. It is a high-tech military grade incendiary - a form of thermite that is explosive. You can assert all the geo-political propaganda you want and it won’t get you around these facts. Calling those of us who are tired of the endless stream of lies that constitute the news media “conspiracy nuts” does not address the fact that the official story is contradicted by solid information, scientifically verified. Calling names doesn’t affect that reality one iota.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Larry, what are you smoking? The buildings fell well AFTER the planes hit.
BTW, alternative news are the ones who debunk 99.999% of everything that gets put out there. If it gets through them, it means there is missing info. So anyone else that comes along is just fooling themselves if they have info that everyone else has missed. All I’m seeing here is name calling and a complete lack of understanding of the available facts.
And you don’t know for a fact that the planes were hijacked by bin Laden operatives. Bush announced right afterwards that they were caught by surprise, and yet announced that it was bin Laden. Well, which one is it? How could they know who did it if they got caught by surprise? Don’t take my word for it. Look up the definition of surprise. It means lack of knowledge when something happens.
Mr. Johnson,
Your friends, Ray McGovern and Mel Goodman, signed a petition calling for a re-investigation of 9/11, which stated in part, “We want truthful answers to questions such as:
1. Why were standard operating procedures for dealing with hijacked airliners not followed that day?
2. Why were the extensive missile batteries and air defenses reportedly deployed around the Pentagon not activated during the attack?
3. Why did the Secret Service allow Bush to complete his elementary school visit, apparently unconcerned about his safety or that of the schoolchildren?
4. Why hasn’t a single person been fired, penalized, or reprimanded for the gross incompetence we witnessed that day?
5. Why haven’t authorities in the U.S. and abroad published the results of multiple investigations into trading that strongly suggested foreknowledge of specific details of the 9/11 attacks, resulting in tens of millions of dollars of traceable gains?”
Other signers of that petition included:
Edward Peck – Former Deputy Coordinator, Covert Intelligence Programs, U.S. State Department. He also served as Deputy Director of the White House Task Force on Terrorism under President Ronald Reagan and was U.S. Ambassador and Chief of Mission in Iraq 1977 - 1980.
Morton Goulder - Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence and Warning under Presidents Nixon, Ford, and Carter.
Mr. Johnson, I am hopeful you would not characterize these individuals as “9/11 conspiracy nuts” for endorsing a re-investigation of 9/11 or asking these questions.
Your friend, Ray McGovern, has publicly stated about 9/11, “I think at simplest terms, there’s a cover-up. The 9/11 Report is a joke.” He also wrote in his endorsement of the book 9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out, “It has long been clear that the Bush-Cheney administration cynically exploited the attacks of 9/11 to promote its imperial designs. But the present volume confronts us with evidence for an even more disturbing conclusion: that the 9/11 attacks were themselves orchestrated by this administration precisely so they could be thus exploited. If this is true, it is not merely the case, as the Downing Street memos show, that the stated reason for attacking Iraq was a lie. It is also the case that the whole ‘war on terror’ was based on a prior deception. This book hence confronts the American people—indeed the people of the world as a whole—with an issue second to none in importance and urgency. I give this book, which in no way can be dismissed as the ravings of ‘paranoid conspiracy theorists,’ my highest possible recommendation.”
Mr. Johnson, have you heeded Mr. McGovern’s “highest possible recommendation” and read this book?
Your friend, Mel Goodman stated in his testimony in a Congressional Briefing (not a committee hearing), “This is an important examination of a 9/11 Commission that was an historic opportunity that was missed and a 9/11 Commission study that is terribly flawed. … I think the 9/11 Commission has taught me that we need to be extremely rigorous and extremely tenacious in pursuing that truth, because there is a corporate mentality in this country that is working against allowing the truth to surface, even in tragedies, such as the 9/11 tragedy. … I want to talk about the [9/11] Commission itself, about the flawed process of the Commission and finally about the conflict of interest within the Commission that is extremely important to understand the failure of the Commission. … The final report is ultimately a cover-up. I don’t know how else to describe it.”
Other respected, long-serving veterans of the counter-terrorism and intelligence community have independently and publicly stated their concerns about the official account of 9/11 and called for a new investigation.
Robert Baer, 21-year CIA veteran, has repeatedly called for a new investigation of 9/11. “There are enough discrepancies and unanswered questions in the 9/11 Commission Report that under a friendly administration, the 9/11 investigation should be re-opened.” And also “Until we get a complete, honest, transparent investigation–not one based on ‘confession’ extracted by torture–we will never know what happened on 9/11.” He was also asked in an interview if “there was an aspect of ‘inside job’ to 9/11 within the U.S. government?” To which Baer replied, “There is that possibility, the evidence points at it.”
William Christison, a 29-year CIA veteran, former National Intelligence Officer (NIO) and former Director of the CIA’s Office of Regional and Political Analysis has written, “We very seriously need an entirely new very high level and truly independent investigation of the events of 9/11. I think you almost have to look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a joke and not a serious piece of analysis at all.” And “[There’s] a strong body of evidence showing the official U.S. Government story of what happened on September 11, 2001, to be almost certainly a monstrous series of lies.” And “I have come to believe that significant parts of the [alternative] 9/11 theories are true, and that therefore significant parts of the “official story” put out by the U.S. government and the 9/11 Commission are false. I now think there is persuasive evidence that the events of September did not unfold as the Bush administration and the 9/11 Commission would have us believe. … An airliner almost certainly did not hit The Pentagon. … The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them.”
Space precludes listing more examples, but I refer you to the article, 41 U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11 at http://patriotsquestion911.com/#Articles
Mr. Johnson, would you refer to Mr. Baer and Mr. Christison as “9/11 conspiracy nuts” for stating that the evidence points to an inside job or that the government’s story is a monstrous series of lies?
The central theme of the 9/11 Truth movement is that the official account of 9/11 is full of significant errors, omissions, and distortions and that a thorough, independent re-investigation is necessary for our national security. A re-investigation is necessary to answer all the unanswered questions, to correct all the errors and distortions in the official account, so that we exactly understand the events leading up to and on the day of 9/11, so that they are not repeated.
A new investigation is also necessary to end the speculation about explanations other than the official conspiracy theory (bin Laden and 19 hijackers) that could explain those events, including your own speculation that it was incompetence.
Please continue to explore this subject with your friends and former colleagues in the intelligence services, particularly those mentioned in the article above. I am hopeful you will then endorse a re-investigation of 9/11.
Alan - Very nice comment. Well researched, well stated and non-confrontational. I’d like to see more posts of this caliber. Keep up the good work.
arch200: “No, it wasn’t. The WTC was not designed to prevent a pancake collapse, which is what happened on 9/11.”
A little behind the times aren’t you???
“NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers…Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.”
NIST: Answers to Frequently Asked Questions (August 30, 2006)
Click here if interested…
Good job narrowing down all the information….