Iran in Turmoil
By Larry Johnson on June 14, 2009 at 8:50 PM in Current Affairs
(Bumped up from earlier today)
The Friday election in Iran has settled nothing and appears to have unleashed a set of forces that will keep the country in turmoil for some time to come. There are a couple of articles worth reading.
First up is Steve Clemons, who writes:
Last night in London after appearing on Keith Olbermann’s show, I got an email from a well-connected Iranian who knows many of the power figures in the Tehran political order asking to meet me. I told him that the only place possible was Paddington on the way to Heathrow — and there we met.
He conveyed to me things that were mostly obvious — Iran is now a tinderbox. The right is tenaciously consolidating its control over the state and refuses to yield. There is a split among the mullahs and significant dismay with Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei. A gaping hole has been ripped open in Iranian society, exposing the contradictions of the regime and everyone now sees that the democracy that they believed that they had in Iranian form is a “charade.”
But the scariest point he made to me that I had not heard anywhere else is that this “coup by the right wing” has created pressures that cannot be solved or patted down by the normal institutional arrangements Iran has constructed. The Guardian Council and other power nodes of government can’t deal with the current crisis and can’t deal with the fact that a civil war has now broken out among Iran’s revolutionaries.
My contact predicted serious violence at the highest levels. He said that Ahmadinejad is now genuinely scared of Iranian society and of Mousavi and Rafsanjani. The level of tension between them has gone beyond civil limits — and my contact said that Ahmadinejad will try to have them imprisoned and killed.
Salon has a piece from an anonymous source who believes that Ahmadinejad and his cronies have pulled off the equivalent of a rightwing coup. According to Anonymous:
It’s becoming increasingly clear that this was a palace coup, a palace coup in the style of Peru’s Fujimori. The Guardian Council has to accept the election results. All eyes are now on Hashemi Rafsanjani, who has apparently just resigned as chairman of the Expediency Council. He was the sole member of the original “yaran” of Khomeini, or Khomeini’s original team, with power and influence. Hossein Mousavi is under house arrest.
In the streets, the mood is incredibly tense and eminently explosive. In Vali Asr square Saturday afternoon, under darkening skies, crowds had gathered as well as cops. It was as if each side knew that a fight had to occur but were uncertain when to start. Cops made the first move by occasionally running into the crowd with batons swinging, telling them to leave the area. People would bolt then rush back, cat and mouse, cat and mouse. They weren’t just running away, though. I personally witnessed a cop fall to the ground after he swung his baton. Immediately two young men jumped on top of him and began pounding on him, then ran away. Trash cans are being set on fire, folks are busting windows, chanting “death to the dictator.” The chants have not yet escalated beyond this point — the demand is that their vote be respected.
This could be significant. We certainly have an opening now in Iran if we play it smart. Now is the time to try to help the opposition to Ahmadinejad organize and sustain operations. But this must be done in a way that the Iranians fighting the mullahs are not portrayed or perceived to be agents of the United States. One thing is certain–Iran is not a monolith of religious fanatics.
The video (here) is worth your time.
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Thanks much, Larry, for this amazing and important post.
Right wing? Sort of. More like militarist and ultra-nationalist.
Elements of the Revolutionary Guard who own much of the economy through “Islamic socialism”, charity combines, would like to get rid of the Mullah system as now composed already.
You could see the Army do a coup via “peace keeping” along with IRG elements who dislike having been made a domestic security force recently.
Take a look at Memri.org and such. Ahmadinejad’s rhetoric, and others, has become increasingly nationalistic and deranged.
This could be an important time for us to help those who want change, I am not sure Obama has the ability to do it.
Well lets hope he leaves it to the SOS. Hillary will be the best to handle this situation.
Choosing Clinton for SOS was one of Obama’s extremely rare moments of brilliance. Obama, being too spineless to ever involve himself more than superficially, will shove Clinton into break up all kinds of dog fights around the world. When she succeeds in her efforts, Obama will take the bulk of the credit, and when she fails, she’ll be the bloodied one. I’m sure that Clinton recognized this personal no win situation before she took the job, but she may have believed that she could work her way out of the dilemma that Obama was placing her in. It seems that she is having to work 5 times harder than prior SOS’s because she knows that Obama will not cover her backside when the wheels come off. In fact, I believe that Clinton, along with many if not most of Obama’s appointments, is there simply to provide Obama with another brick in a protective wall of sacrificial bodies. I think that when the symbolic political bullets start flying, Obama will grab anyone near him to act as a human shield. Like a bottomless pit, there is always more room under the Obama bus, and Clinton has a first class reservation there. Obama will escape harm, and Clinton will be politically deceased. It’s a win-win for Barry.
Neither Obama nor Hillary can help the situation.
The best thing to do is for the Americans to keep their noses out of this. As soon as the US moves in, Ahmadenijad can claim electoral interference by the US and people will rally behind him against what would be perceived as a redux of 1953…
Agreed that neither one of them can help the situation, but will that stop Obama from throwing Clinton into the fray? I’m not convinced that Obama can refrain from injecting his self-percieved ability to heal all wounds into the situation, especially since he can use Clinton as his proxy.
Anyone who thinks the United States didn’t have a hand in this (and I don’t mean the Obama administration) is off their meds. ;). Maybe the Shrub has once again been “misunderestimated”.
Wow this was what I was going to write and have before. He wanted Hillary for her abilities and experience but always keeping in mind she would be his scapegoat, whenever needed,but god help us all if he does. maybe we the people should have the guts,like other countries to stand up for what is right. Is there anyone who can get on the job of bringing these abuses ,past and present to the public that is unaware or forgetful. The media is on a one track agenda and not doing their job.
This administration is bumbling along on all the extremely important issues and the media is saying they are doing a great job. maybe they just need to add the word BROWNIE.
Don’t worry OBush/W2 is on the job! I believe he’s out golfing today.
Stop the vacationfest!
I see in my morning paper, that in the Iran elections, “the US looks into fraud allegations”. Well, who better?
The free and democratic election folks that first gave us Bush and now Obama - lucky Iranians!
Wait, maybe we can make a deal and they’ll take the O.
I feel like a beauty pageant contestant: I wish for world peace.”
Very frightening times in the world with Iran in a bit of turmoil and with North Korea wanting to develop nuclear bombs.
I wish I had confidence in the powers that be here in the U.S. I am happy Clinton is SOS. I believe her intelligent, knowledgeable mind could perhaps find a way.
Clinton continues to be marginalized by the O, who has appointed all kinds of people, especially men, who report to him and not her.
Who said? No. That’s not true. No one marginalizes Hillary. Are you trying to start trouble? Stop flaming please.
Why is it that America always want to meddle in the concerns of another country? Whatever is going on in Iran is an internal issue, yet it seems that the US media is taking pleasure with all that is going on without knowing the facts.
All is speculation at the moment do we have proof that the election was rigged, do we have proof that this other guys would be any different than the previous one. If the results are correct seems to be a overwhelming number of person love the way how life is at present in Iran, and a few of the young ones as always seems to being played like a fiddle to cause unrest.
I think America has a lot of issues to deal with, and to think our own youth helped Obama get into the WH, so youth support may not always be the right kind of support, it sure as hell did not bring us anything at the moment that we can jump and cheer about, so lets deal with our problems as leave Iran to see about theirs.
Well, arrogant uneducated inexperienced enthusiasm backed by limitless energy and berserk hormones may not be the best solution–that’s true. But if you’re sly and know how to push the right buttons, you can sure put a lot of young fist-pumping chanting bipeds in the streets! Sigh. As the expression goes, it’s a shame that all that youth is wasted on the young . . .
Thanks for this bit of orientation, Larry. I have no idea who are the good guys and who are the bad guys over there, though I suspect it’s a matter of choosing between the bad guys and the even-worse guys. Informative article!
Anybody besides me think that the US is complicit in this ‘coup’?
For the past week, the MSM has been crowing about the (supposed) “Obama Effect”, ie: the Cairo speech has ‘transformed’ the Arab world to overthrow the right and replace them with more progressive politicians.
I think I smell a little hype from the Obamites
Iranians are not Arabs.
Those weren’t my words - rather, they were the words of Arianna Huffington when she discussed same. Maybe you should let her know?
They are Persians who’s food is scrumptious.
Tell Arianna to shut her trap and get another career. She doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She’s the reason radical Dems are misinformed enough to support Obama.
Anybody besides me think that the US is complicit in this ‘coup’?
Well just as a ‘nobody’, no.
I don’t think anything would surprise me now, and it’s not like we haven’t done it before.
I believed that from the minute I heard the “results” there.
It’s scary.
Did anyone read this from obama:
“We are excited to see what appears to be a robust debate taking place in Iran,” Obama told reporters
http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed1/idUSTRE55B4SG20090612
Wonder why he did his best to put the flames of the “Robust Debate” out when he was at the center of it during our elections?
LOL–Yep, that’s what I look for coming out of the Middle East–”robust debate.” The arguing points could be parked by the roadside with the backseats loaded with plastic explosive. Yeah–we’re going to have a “robust debate” in Iran for sure . . . May the debating team with the most persuasive arguments win!
There he goes - marginalizing the situation again. Wake Up Obama, the world is just not that stupid.
the young people of muslim faith throughout the world are seeing what a pathetic fraud obama is. he is just mush inside. don’t look there for help.
The Confluence has live twittering of the Iran situation. This was only place last night that had any information.
The msm was among the lost in reporting what was happening. They really have become a waste of time and space.
Thank you for the post Larry. We need all the information we can get.
My worry is that we have people over in the mideast that could be caught up in a windwhirl if the mideast explodes.
WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS
PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE
thanks Larry for getting us up to date on this..
The MSM is MIA, because the Oborg has not yet told them what to say.
The Obama team is busily spinning a tale for us… and it will be unveiled around the time the Monday news cycle bagins.
So far we have hints…. ie. Obama likes the “robust” debate. And the fact that the RW had to rig this means… Obie is the one who is really in control.
Yes, folks… we are about to be taken for another ride in the never ending amusement factory called “Obama.”
What a gasbag obama is.
Most of the info I’m getting is coming from Twitter - and I think most of the MSM who are even bothering to report is getting it there as well. Lots of people tweeting live what’s going on. Several claims of tanks on the street in Tehran, but no pics yet, as service is down, and pics won’t upload.
Also reports that the Iranian govt trying to block Twitter, and the block won’t work - angry calls to Twitter from the govt.
This is ALL hearsay, but a lot of good links going up at Twitter, under the iranelection hash.
http://twitter.com/#search?q=%23iranelection
Is this the future of “live news”? Most interesting.
A matrix of sorts?
Good point, and I just have one anecdote to add to this whole event–for what it’s worth. Last year (July 08) I was talking to an Iranian who lives in the US but travels to/has extended family in Iran. I asked what he thought of Ahmadinejad. He rolled his eyes, sighed frustratingly and said “Oh, I hate him. Everybody there hates him. They don’t want him at all. There are elections next year–we will see what happens. We want to get rid of him. He is not good for the country.”
Sad turn of events…. I don’t know whether to pin my hopes on Hillary leading the way or expect the worst from the empty suit.
The Persians were first Zoroastrians, and the Zoroastrian traditions are still strong in Iran. To label Iranians as Arab or all fanatical Muslims is not right. Sadly, though, most Americans think that way.
I believe the very large Iranian ex-pats here in the U.S. must be encouraged to speak out as to how they would hope we should react to this election.
“I believe the very large Iranian ex-pats here in the U.S. must be encouraged to speak out as to how they would hope we should react to this election.
We didn’t even react to our own ‘08 fraud. Do you really think anyone is going to ask us to intervene? or that our intervention would be effective?
I think they should settle this on their own, and maybe set an example for us in the future.
Yes. Imagine our SOS who had the 2008 election stolen from her may be the one required to do be the mouth-piece or more for Iran’s election fraud on the ogasbags behalf if at all. (’Glad she got help from Canada’s Prime Minister to be the mouth piece-gosh what other adult is there around here anyway?) Boy, do I know how those Iranian people feel to not have their vote count in the same month of June.
Most of them are 30 years old and under. They are over half the voting population.
We had a coup on the ‘fauxprogresive’ NEW Democratic left and they just had a coup on the old extreme right.
Jimmy Carter does deserve quite a bit of the blame, but the Iranian people, seeking hope and change, were the ones that voted in the Ayatollah. They got their change alright. It all seems so familiar.
This was meant as a response to sara below, whoops.
I was misinterpreted. I would simply like the many Iranian ex-pats in the U.S. to let us know how they feel about the turmoil. What would they like to see happen? I didn’t use the word “react” to mean “intervene.” I would simply like some of them speaking out. They may also wish for our government to keep its hands out of the whole situation. Iran is a country with a long, long history.
I am flashing on the terrible looting at the antiquities museum that occurred during the invasion of Baghdad. I think about the animals in the zoo that were in the midst of everything. I think about the common citizens just trying to live a life. It saddens me, and I am sure the Iranians here are worried about many things. I simply would like to know their minds.
I am originally from Iran, and I blame Jimmy Carter for 30 years of absolute hell in Iran.
Why don’t you blame President Eisenhower for almost 60 years of hell?
Probably because while the Shaw was in power we had an ally, Israel had an ally, and the Iranian people were accepting and enjoying an increasing role in modern civilization. Ousting the Shaw sent them back centuries culturally, and tyrannical rule has kept them there since.
Thanks for the Iranians speaking up here–I really do want their voices.
My knowledge of history is sketchy here. How did Jimmy Carter play a part in this? I understand that things became terrible after the Shaw was overthrown. But I also know that there was some corruption in the Shaw’s rule that sparked the crisis. I can understand how Israel may feel about Carter. I remember Carter and the Iranian hostage crisis all too well. I would just like an explanation of how Carter should have done things differently. I know there was much anger here in the U.S. about his non-action at that time.
I am not defending Carter or criticizing him at this point. I just want to know how at that point in time the U.S. should have reacted?
That is why I would like Iranian opinions because this situation today may require some response from the U.S. that might this time be a better response.
I fear that this could happen in this country in 2012 if the majority want Obama out. You KNOW that election is going to fraudulent!
Many thanks to Steve Clemons for his blog post on this. It’s really intriguing [and I do mean "intrigue!"]
Unfortunately, I also read through the comments following it, and I gotta say, I don’t know how Steve maintains his equanimity in the face of such egotistical buffoonery from commenters. But he’s always polite. Kudos to him for that.
You make zero sense. Save it.
Mountainaires, I know you to be a logical, factual poster.
Read the Washington Post’s article titled “The Iranian People Speak.”
Their own pre-election polls (independently done) a week before the election showed Ahmadinejad winning by 2 /1 margin.
And our Special Forces have been inside Iran for a good 2 years financing and stirring up resistance to current leadership.
In the end, America may very well have egg on its face for intrusion into the process.
Both Michael Totten and Pajamas Media are posting regular updates.
The Combatant Clerics’ Assembly (party of former pres. Khatami founded) has called for a new vote.
http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-market-news-story.aspx?storyid=200906131558dowjonesdjonline000491&title=khatamis-clerical-group-urges-annulling-iran-poll-results
Reza Khatami, brother of Mohammed Khatami was apparently detained but subsequently released; also detained and placed under house arrest was a granddaughter of Ali Khamenei.
In all about 170 people protesting were detained, 10 have been cited as masterminding the protests.
Mousavi’s wife says he is not under house arrest. He is slated to make a speech for his supporters at Azadi Square tonight.
Even al Arabiya has been shut out of communications. It is hard to know who really won or what is going on.
The 170 arrested were burning cars and breaking windows in their riot.
Our cops would have done the same.
I’m merely noting what’s been reported. There’s no value judgment stated.
“But this must be done in a way that the Iranians fighting the mullahs are not portrayed or perceived to be agents of the United States.”
A delicate balance for our government to show interest and concern without being perceived as meddlng.
Any disguised CIA or Special Forces in those crowds of demonstrators, Larry?
Wouldn’t be the first time, would it?
Former President Hashem Rafsanjani has been arrested and taken to be held at the house of Supreme Ruler Ali Khamenei, where he was forced to resign as the head of the Expediency Council and Council of Experts. He is being held there until further notice to be at the pleasure of the Supreme Ruler.
Rafsanjani not only spent money to oppose Ahmadi-Nejad’s re-”selection” but also made a big mistake of threatening the Supreme Ruler with the fact that the councils headed by Rafsanjani were the ones who had to declare the eligibility of the Supreme Ruler and could remove him from office with a quick vote.
http://noiri.blogspot.com/2009/06/latest-news-iran.html
The far left crack me up. They spend the majority of their miserable little lives crying about America not interfering around the world. Now that things don`t go their way, it`s lets investigate. I even saw comments saying we should bomb them back to the stone age. Maybe they should rename the party Hypocrite Party.
Does anyoe think ACORN flew to Iran to help Ahmjaninejad - whatever his name is- get elected?
Way to go Big Bird, Barney, etc…
No but there’s word from Tehran that Chavez has sent Venezuelan riot police to bail out his Bro. Iranian police have been reluctant to beat fellow citizens and many have joined the protests.
well doc when the police go over the line, then that doesn’t look good for the govies.
But stodgie, when American college kids take to the streets burning cars and trash cans and breaking windows in buldings in anger…..
OUR police take action , too.
Rioting is rioting. Destruction of property is destruction of property.
ahh mary, come on! go read about the revolution. with your thinking, we’d still be drinking tea.
“Word from Tehran.” No, Doc. There’s word from Twitter and college kids.
The “riot police” came from Lebanon and not Chavez.
Sheesh
Good question. A small leak a couple weeks ago indicated they were on their way to the Iran election to be pollworkers-strange. For what side they didn’t say. This sound bite came and went in a flash. No one talked about it.
Obama to vote present on Iranian crisis in 3…2…1…
Basically, Ozero’s already voted “Present.”
Jake Tapper:
The White House has not issued a statement expressing support for the protestors declaring the election illegitimate. But neither has anyone in the Obama administration said a public word accepting the legitimacy of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s reelection.
“We’re reacting to concrete facts,” a White House official tells ABC News. “We’re collecting them still.”
“3…2…1…. FORE!”
A most curious election and aftermath. 62% by official govt claim.
I’m finding it difficult if not impossible to find anything in the way of exit polls. If there were any, where are they? If there were none, you’d wonder, why not?
It just seems like an absense of any actual facts for a fraud claim. On the other hand, if protests continue - successfully from the point of view of the protesters - maybe election facts aren’t necessary, and may not be the real point anyway.
Real Iranian Vote Totals?
NEWS: The correct votes were 19,7M Mousavi, Karoubi 7M, Rezaei 3M, Ahmadinejad 7-8M
These are not the “real” Iranian vote counts.
Those numbers came from Andrew Sullivan’s blog, and he got them from Twitter.
Come on, Doc, you can do better than this.
In response to a question of what the Iranian people want the U.S. and American people to do, his response was as follows:
The most essential need of young Iranians is to be recognized by US government. they need them not to accept the results and do not talk to A.N government as an official, approved one. They need help by sending true information. All the medias are under arrest or close control. Help them have the information.
They only try to show the fraud to the world. help them please. you can not imagine the level of brutality we saw these 2 awful days.
http://niacblog.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/election-unrest-day-two/
The “Iranian people” includes the 600,000 Iranians who rallied FOR Ahmadinejad, Doc.
Why do the college kids on Twitter speak for the “Iranian people?”
These college kids are the ones burning cars and breaking windows all over town.
What if they’re NOT “the Iranian people?”
“If Obama accepts this election, we are doomed.”
Doc99–thanks for the links. I am never really sure how to find this type of information.
Not “doomed.”
This is how democracy works. They’re in the minority, so they don’t win.
600,000 Iranians came out to rallies supporting Ahmadinajad.
Why do you think the media hardly covered that?
Obama et al are taking their time, trying to figure out how to place the blame of all this on Bush….lol
Strange Doings in Iranian Net Transit.
Western pundits got caught out on the last election.
Same this time.
Mousevi was in power during the iraq-Iran War where Iran’s defence tactics were suicidal . Perhaps many iranians remember this.
The graveyards from that conflict are huge & visited in huge numbers. iranians remember Mousevi.
Mr A has not overseen Iranian dead in catastrophic numbers.
I’m reading that Moussavi represented the highly-educated, wealthy elite, and never reached to the poor or the middle class.
But of course idealistic college kids would rally to a man like that. They don’t KNOW how many of their fellow Iranians he slaughtered.
But the older, wiser adults would remember.
And the poor and middle class would see him as another Shah, representing only the upper class, connected people with big, big, paybacks.
It’s quite logical that anyone except the young, idealistic college kids would vote differently, and would see Ahmadinejad as their best negotiator with the United States.
larry, thanks for the info. i just now logged in hoping for something from you. confluence has been tweeting and there have been some good posts and comments on there in the past 24. i concur with you and your sources that this is just beginning.
Its strange that the iranian protesters were holding up signs written not in their language but in english. (?)
What did they write?
I heard they were asking obama for help
they are writing and often yelling english for the cameras.
maybe we on the net should designate a day to all wear green in solidarity with the protestors in iran.
I think you need to do a little reading on the thousands of people he had executed for political reasons when he was prime minister of Iran; you might want to hold off on that green.
I would agree.
And I suggest people remember that Bush had “Special Forces” in Iran for the last 2 years encouraging rebellion and spreading cash around (remember Brezinski and Afghanistan?)
Washington Post article today titled “The Iranian People Speak” describes how their OWN pre-election polls showed Ahmadinejad winning 2 to 1.
If Mousavi is a new Shah, with American backing to weaken Ahmadinejad, and American media is clueless but Iranians are not, re American Special Forces in their country, a landslide Ahmadinejad victory would be completely understandable.
Mousavi is not the “good guy” that naive Americans think he is. 30,000 dissidents were murdered by him in his last stint as an Iranian office-holder.
Is it possible our own CIA and Special Forces are backing/financing this man as their new “puppet?” Is it possible Saudi Arabia helped finance the “project,” as they did the mujahadeen in Afghanistan to bring down the Russians?
But of course it is.
And don’t forget: Brezinski is now one of Obama’s major foreign policy advisors.
Come on , Larry, you gotta give your readers better historical perspectives on this thing.
Wear green for what? I also saw a rally for support for Aj so am I to discount the thousand of people that turned out for this rally and say they did not what the present leader to return to office?
Where is the proof that this election was rigged, and who is going to tell the thousand in that rally that their president lost?
i would wear green in any event. and i think the vote was rigged. hey you are entitled to your view but you won’t get agreement from me. i would wear green nom for the people of iran who want a new life. what they have right now is pretty dang bad. are you referring to the the iran/iraq war with the number of people killed? i think that is what you are referring to isn’t it?
nom, i did do some futher reading on mousevi. he has issues for sure and yes he has had a hand in some dark deeds. the questions raised appear to have no ready answers. however as i oppose the current leadership, i still support the young people and their desire for freedom.
Even if they represent a minority of votes?
That’s not democracy.
Yes, he was the prime minister when the ayatollah/ mullahs rounded up between 8 to 30,000 political prisoners and executed them in the 1980’s. There were those who stepped forward to oppose this such as Khomeini’s appointed successor Montazeri who was subsequently un-appointed.
He’s also one of the founders of Hezbollah and their version of the CIA, MOIS. He’s not a nice guy. (The position of prime minister has been done away with now). There’s also supposedly a picture of his wife stomping on the American flag, but I haven’t found it yet.
http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/Iran_elections_Hezbollah/2009/06/03/221083.html
If the elections were rigged, I’m all for a new one, I just don’t think it’s established yet that the elections were truly rigged.
Almost all the sources are our sides sources: US, UK, Israel, Canada, and a couple of our analysts of Iran. Also, many of the Reuters AP photos look staged to me. Reuters has a nasty habit of that.
Reuters & AP, sorry
anyone who takes the time to really watch a number of videos might well surmise that this is just beginning and far from ending.
Sen. Joe Lieberman (Remember him?)
[T]hrough intimidation, violence, manipulation, and outright fraud, the Iranian regime has once again made a mockery of democracy, and confirmed its repressive and dictatorial character.
We as Americans have a responsibility to stand in solidarity with people when they are denied their rights by repressive regimes. When elections are stolen, our government should protest. When peaceful demonstrators are beaten and silenced, we have a duty to raise our voices on their behalf. We must tell the Iranian people that we are on their side.
For this reason, I would hope that President Obama and members of both parties in Congress will speak out, loudly and clearly, about what is happening in Iran right now, and unambiguously express their solidarity with the brave Iranians who went to the polls in the hope of change and who are now looking to the outside world for strength and support.
Joe Liebermann, along with Lindsey Graham and John McCain are the main spokesmen against releasing the torture memos/photos: I would not exactly label any of them as a moral authority.
JOe Lieberman would say ANYTHING, even if it’s later proven untrue, to help discredit Ahmadinejad’s credibility on behalf of Israel.
Washington Post has an article today that says their OWN independent election polls in Iran showed Ahmadinejad winning 2 to 1, and that the election results are CONSISTENT with what their polls showed.
Ergo, no vote-rigging or cheating.
THINK. Who wants Ahmadinejad discredited, and who would finance underground rebellions and place selective emotional and not-yet-proven media stories in the media to help do so?
And if older and wiser Iranians (not idealistic college students) had more information in their own country about American financing of that movement, how would the majority of Iranians respond to that?
Would they vote for the candidate whose supporters seem to be backed by Joe Lieberman or CIA funding?
Come on, guys. Don’t be so naive.
This is an interesting situation and a crucial time for Iran and its future. If we could somehow support these insurrectionists, is there an opportunity here to be rid of that totalitarian Islamic theocracy in Tehran?
I guess we’ll find out today if Obama is going to remain neutral and passive, and pretty much throw these protesters under the bus.
Allahpundit at Hot Air has a pretty interesting analysis:
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/14/cnn-producer-iranian-students-say-theyre-doomed-if-obama-accepts-the-iranian-election/
No Iranian election will get rid of the totalitarian Islamic theocracy.
All Iranian political candidates are pre-selected by the Islamic Guardian Council. This policy was put in place by Khomeini (velayat-e faqui) and its still going strong.
So the mullahs run one thug against another and let the masses vote on it occasionally.
And it tricks most of them, most of the time.
Sound familiar?
ugh, all too.
“Obama, please help us. They are killing our children.”
Thousands of Iranians have staged a rally against the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, defying a government ban on protests.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8099952.stm
Yes, but THOUSANDS of Iranians staged a rally SUPPORTING the re-election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, too.
One is important and the other is not?
Our media covers one and not the other?
What do you think that means?
Exactly Mary I was asking the same thing, should we discount all these people that support Ahmadinejad, what about their votes?
Honestly I do feel America loves to meddle a bit too much in the running of some countries, yet when its our election no one dare ask why things were being conducted in a certain manner, why Acorn existed at all, why Obama was able to receive money from all over the world without checking the source.
The people had an election that is a whole lot better than some countries, some don’t like the results but like America that is how it goes, time to suck it up and move on.
In an interesting about face, Iran’s El Supremo Ayatollah Khamenei has ordered an investigation into electoral fraud.
More from Twitter -
# Ppl of the world that are following #IranElection protests, U now know what spirit of real Iranians! Imagine if everyone had such courage!
less than 10 seconds ago from web
# I am so proud of my iranian bros/sis.U have shown the world fearlessness in face eye of tyranny! Ppl of world pls nevr forget! #IranElection
3 minutes ago from web
http://twitter.com/irannewsnow
But Doc, does this mean that the Iranians who showed up at the rally FOR Ahmadinejad are not “real Iranians?”
Be careful what you think you’re supporting.
President Barack Obama is set to release on Wednesday the details of his proposed overhaul to how financial markets are regulated.
To Americans this should be a bigger issue than who gets to lead Iran.
I thought there were reports that news and twitter were blocked?
Apparently not.
So be careful, that what is reported in the heat of emotional hysteria by college students is not accepted as complete truth.
The 100 students who were arrested the first night, were arrested, because they were setting cars and buildings on fire and breaking windows in buildings.
Wouldn’t America have done the same?
Trust but verify.
Apparently, Khamenei must have noticed for he’s now launching an investigation into alleged electoral fraud. Stay tuned.
“Launching an investigation”–probably means even less in Iran than it means over here–diddley squat. The only process that is more inconsequential is “forming a committee to study the matter.”
I predicted oil prices would jump this morning because of the unrest in Iran. Instead, they have fallen. My prophecy success average remains at a nearly perfect 0%.
but oowanwa tomorrow’s another day. oil prices won’t be staying down.
It’s 1906 all over again.
Iranian woman takes on the Basij. Hope, Change, Robust Debate …
The “robust debate” continues:
Update: 15 Dead.
Wow. Great pics at that link. Thanks, Doc.
“if we play it smart. Now is the time to try to help the opposition to Ahmadinejad organize . . . .”
That has been going on for years.
” . . . and sustain operations.”
This has not and I have serious doubts it will now.
The economy in Iran is in shambles and the people do not want another bloody war (Iraq in 1980’s)this time with Israel over their nutjob leader Ahmadinejad. This had nothing to do with Obama’s Cairo speech. This has been developng for quite some time.
While there is a limit to what Obama can do, he can, right now, show solidarity with the reformers. If he does not, this could be viewed as his Bay of Pigs.
Show solidarity with the reformers have anyone taken the time to find out who Mousevi really is ?
Mousevi was on the leadership council of Lebanon’s Shi’ite militant group Hezbollah, he does not recognize Israel, he also defend Iran weaponization and nuclear technology.
Be very careful of what some of you wish for history has shown America loves to propagate persons that they portray as the good guy and savior, then in the end they usually turn out to be worse than the previous leaders that they helped get rid of.
It’s the lesser of evils in the Middle East.
If we went by character tests we wouldn’t be able to deal with anyone in those Arab countries.
I’m not seeing anything that would indicate he is a lesser evil.
“If we went by character tests we wouldn’t be able to deal with anyone in those Arab countries.”
Well I guess it’s a good thing Clinton is our SOS and not you, because that’s completely crazy.
Explain. Specifically who do you regard as having good character in any of the Arab countries? No answer? Then stifle.
Michael Totten: To Speak Out or Not To Speak Out.
It’s certainly possible that Khamenei and his security forces would seize on open American support for the demonstrators, declare them stooges of the “Great Satan,” and crack down even more viciously.
However, there’s another possibility that few seem to have thought of. Right now the regime may be sticking its proverbial finger in the wind to sense what a foreign reaction to a more ferocious domestic response might look like. It’s somewhat surprising that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps hasn’t already gunned down a substantial number of people. Surely its commanders have at least considered massacring dissidents as in Tienanmen Square. If they feel they might get away with it because no one outside Iran is willing to stop them – which is exactly what happened in Burma last year – silence from the White House might actually increase the likelihood of something monstrous happening.
Well, they’ve gunned down some demonstrators, and they are no doubt watching very carefully what world reaction may be.
Many folks in the U.S. will have less sympathy for the demonstrators than they otherwise might have had for the simple reason that the Iranian street-mobs during the American Embassy Hostage Crisis are still so vivid: streets full of young folks, pumping their fists in the air, chanting slogans. Lots of American Flag burning. The slogans have changed, and the American Flags aren’t being burnt (yet), but it looks a lot the same.
From the comments on Totten’s post -
“…Either way, we have to face a fact. We can say nothing and be condemned for our silence, or we can speak up and (possibly) be condemned for our voice. Those who choose to condemn the United States will do so. What we have responsibility over is our own action.
And we are a nation that claims to have always valued freedom over oppression. Yet there are horrible and ignoble moments in our history when that hasn’t happened- such as Hungary in 1956. We do not look back at moments like that and say “thank goodness we kept our mouths shut, imagine how much worse things would have been if we tried to do something!” No, we look back on those moments in shame at how far we let down what we want to be. And as I said- Hungary sat withering under the Soviet thumb for another 40 years. How much worse could we have possibly made it if we fought for them? Who amongst the Iraqis is glad we stayed our hand in 1991? Where is the evidence that our silence has ever led to a better day for those whom we chose not to defend?
If we could vote on whether to speak out on behalf of the dissidents, I would vote that we do so. It is the least we should do for them.”
“Probe with bayonets. If you encounter mush, proceed…” VI Lenin
Right, Doc99. In a comment above, “hokma” notes:
I thought while reading that of the 1956 Hungarian Revolution, and how that would be a more fitting parallel than the Bay of Pigs to American inaction. Will we do nothing and lose face and respect the same way we did back in 1956? I have an idea that some lofty rhetoric will be emanating from the bully pulpit, but not much more. Favreau is probably working feverishly as we speak. Warm up the teleprompters!
Guide To Following Iranian Election Online.
What Can Obama Say About Iran?
One of our resident lefties asked that question and today the guys at Powerline have provided the answer in the words of Ronald Reagan. Addressing the Solidarity strikes that threatened to turn into a blood bath and a point of conflict between the west and the Soviet Union, Reagan, as he always did, took the side of freedom.
I urge the Polish Government and its allies to consider the consequences of their actions. How can they possibly justify using naked force to crush a people who ask for nothing more than the right to lead their own lives in freedom and dignity? Brute force may intimidate, but it cannot form the basis of an enduring society, and the ailing Polish economy cannot be rebuilt with terror tactics.
That’s just a piece of what he said, go to Powerline to see how a real President speaks up for the oppressed.
Remember when Russia invaded Georgia and how Obama blamed both sides until McCain showed him what to say? Here’s hoping that Obama avails himself of a second chance to get this right.
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/288594.php
Seven Point Manifesto
The following document, known as the Seven-Point Manifesto, calling for the resignation of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei, has hit the streets of Iran. Hundreds of thousands of copies have already been circulated throughout the country.
A copy was sent from Tehran to filmmaker and activist Ardeshir Arian, who has translated it for Pajamas Media:
The Seven-Point Manifesto calls for:
1. Stripping Ayatollah Khamenei of his supreme leadership position because of his unfairness. Fairness is a requirement of a supreme leader.
2. Stripping Ahmadinejad of the presidency, due to his unlawful act of maintaining the position illegally.
3. Transferring temporary supreme leadership position to Ayatollah Hussein-Ali Montazery until the formation of a committee to reevaluate and adjust Iran’s constitution.
4. Recognizing Mir Hossein Mousavi as the rightfully elected president of the people.
5. Formation of a new government by President Mousavi and preparation for the implementation of new constitutional amendments.
6. Unconditional release of all political prisoners regardless of ideology or party platform.
7. Dissolution of all organizations — both secret and public — designed for the oppression of the Iranian people, such as the Gasht Ershad (Iranian morality police).
The following I got off HUFFPO which is from an Iranian medical student.
Hello,
It’s painful to watch what’s happening.
I don’t want anything to do with what has been said this far, as I neither have the strength nor the resilience to face all these unfathomable events.
I only want to speak about what I have witnessed. I am a medical student. There was chaos last night at the trauma section in one of our main hospitals. Although by decree, all riot-related injuries were supposed to be sent to military hospitals, all other hospitals were filled to the rim. Last night, nine people died at our hospital and another 28 had gunshot wounds. All hospital employees were crying till dawn. They (government) removed the dead bodies on back of trucks, before we were even able to get their names or other information. What can you even say to the people who don’t even respect the dead. No one was allowed to speak to the wounded or get any information from them. This morning the faculty and the students protested by gathering at the lobby of the hospital where they were confronted by plain cloths anti-riot militia, who in turn closed off the hospital and imprisoned the staff. The extent of injuries are so grave, that despite being one of the most staffed emergency rooms, they’ve asked everyone to stay and help–I’m sure it will even be worst tonight.
What can anyone say in face of all these atrocities? What can you say to the family of the 13 year old boy who died from gunshots and whose dead body then disappeared?
This issue is not about cheating(election) anymore. This is not about stealing votes anymore. The issue is about a vast injustice inflected on the people. They’ve put a baton in the hand of every 13-14 year old to smash the faces of “the bunches who are less than dirt” (government is calling the people who are uprising dried-up torn and weeds) .
This is what sickens me from dealing with these issues. And from those who shut their eyes and close their ears and claim the riots are in opposition of the government and presidency!! No! The people’s complaint is against the egregious injustices committed against the people.
Classic example of what happens when “dictators”
think they can “fix” an election that is not going their way Lets crack down on the dissent etc etc.
If the Grand Aatollah (sp) doesnt wake up and smell the roses the whole country will end up in a bloody civil war because if the demonstrations dont stop and he tries to quell it with force it will only turn violent.
You dont have to be an expert to predict how this will come out. If the reform movement does not get any satisfaction or resolution then the violence and choas will escalate until one side or the other “wins”.
The ONLY way anything could be resolved right now to end the escalation would be for the Grand A to declare the election null and void and maybe then things would calm down and some kind of compromise worked out.
Richard Fernandez:
The reorientation of the IRGC mission to face internal threats is a tacit admission of political weakness. Contrary to the narrative that Iran has been strengthened by the events of recent years, it is strongly suggestive that the opposite is true. And now that the internal threat has actually materialized, the Obama administration should ask itself whether it is wise public policy to throw a regime racked by internal dissention and possibly collapsing upon itself the lifeline of “engagement”; whether it is opportune to give it international legitimacy and remove the sanctions at a time when it is beating itself up. In others words, the administration must ask whether it makes any sense to ring the bell just as Teheran is on the ropes. Following the lead of Kim Jong Il can be described as an act of dialogue without precondition, or it may simply be stupidity without precedent.
Help us, Hopey One Kenobi. You’re our only hope.