More 9-11 Conspiracy Nuttiness
By Larry Johnson on June 16, 2009 at 5:02 AM in Current Affairs
(bumped up from yesterday)
The folks who persist in their twisted fantasy that 9-11 was an inside job are beyond reason. They are convinced they are following simple logic and insist science is on their side but ignore basic precursors and common sense.
Here is a typical reaction. This one courtesy of Karl Pavloff of Cincinnati 9/11 Truth.
Pavloff writes:
Larry Johnson,
I just finished reading your article 9-11 Conspiracy Nuts Persist with much amusement and felt compelled to respond to it.
So, according to you, we in the 9/11 Truth Movement are a bunch of ‘crazies’? This is really comical. I take it that the understanding of science and deductive reasoning are not your strong points?
I would suggest that you educate yourself on the laws of Physics Larry. Particularly the Law of Conservation of Momentum and how it completely destroys the government’s theory that both World Trade Center Towers fell due to a ‘fire induced collapse’. The Law of Conservation of Momentum also explains the absolute impossibility of World Trade Center Building Seven completely collapsing symmetrically downward into it’s own footprint in 6.5 seconds. Even NIST has now admitted that Building 7 fell at freefall acceleration for more that two seconds. Explosive can only example this scientific fact.
Have you read this peer reveiwed scientific paper yet? Google it. It’s called ‘Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe’.
Karl, you provide a great example of why people like you are tough to take seriously. You pick and choose what you like to believe. You ignore the contemporary video of a firefighter predicting the imminent collapse of Building 7.
But beyond that is your complete ignorance of what is required to wire up a building in order to bring about a controlled demolition. You and your crowd of nuts cannot provide one shred of evidence that there was any effort by anyone to place explosives in the three buildings that collapsed in the month prior to the attack. And then, where were these mysterious people based on 9-11 who were cranking off the detonators? How were the wires inside the buildings connected to the detonators outside the building and why did no one see those wires?
Continuing with Karl’s fantasy:
PHYSICS 101
Let’s look at the collapse of both Twin Towers logically, scientifically Larry:
The towers were both struck by airplanes near the top of the buildings. According to the official (NIST) story, the trusses weakened from the heat of the jet fuel causing a complete building collapse. Although jet fuel only burns at a maximum temperature of 1800 degrees Fahrenheit and structural steel doesn’t melt until about 2800 degrees Fahrenheit.
Question #1: How do you account for difference of 1000 degrees Fahrenheit?
Question #2: Where is the energy coming from in the top of the building (above the impact zone) to allow this downward momentum and simultaneous symmetrical collapse that not only causes a smaller structure to completely ‘crush’ a much larger structure steel and concrete reinenforced structure (falling into the path of greatest resistance) below it, but also to explode/eject massive 20 ton beams laterally outward up to 600 feet embedding these steel beams into neighboring buildings? Simple gravititational force cannot do this and that was all that was acting upon the upper structure.)
Question #3: Please explain the huge amount of ‘molten steel’ that was found in the basement rubble of all three collapsed building for weeks after 9/11.
Question #4: What about the video and audio evidence of explosions?
Question $5: What about all of the eyewitness testimony of firefighters, policemen and other frist responders talikng about the sounds of explosions?
Karl, unlike you I have watched hours of video surrounding the collapse of the towers. What is clear especially with respect to the twin towers is that the collapse starts in the area where the planes hit. The deformation on the towers is quite evident. The fire and smoke were real, not imagined.
With respect to your questions you do not have to melt steel. The temperatures were high enough to soften the steel. Soft steel loses its load bearing capability.
And molten steel was found in the “basement?” Really? Do you have a picture or video? Where precisely was it found? Just because you and a bunch of other nuts insist it exists, that does not constitute proof.
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that your crazy theory is true. For it to be true we must have several thousand pounds of explosives brought into the twin towers as well as Building 7. Concrete around any of the structural columns would have had to be removed and then explosives attached to those columns. You would also have thousands of feet of wires connecting the various explosive charges. And you would have to ensure that you put the explosives on the floors in each building where the planes struck. You cannot very well start a collapse on the 50th floor if the plane hit on the 82nd.
What we see from the film footage of those days is that the collapse starts in the South Tower, which had been struck by a plane at a lower point in the building. The collapse of the North Tower, not surprisingly, starts at the point of impact of the plane. We are fortunate that the video record exists of this tragedy. Otherwise you could make up your own facts and insist stridently that your version is true.
Your weak attempt at disparaging all of the accredited scientists and other researchers with your pathetic little hit piece is completely farcical. Stick to what you know Larry. The 9/11 Truth Momentum is growing exponentially every day. I was just at a 9/11 Truth event yesterday and I was honestly amazed at the number of people who believe it was an inside job. Especially former military personnel.
I’ll await your response about how I’m crazy and I probably am a Holocaust Denier, have seen UFO’s personnally, believe Elvis is still alive or am Anti-Semitic. Attacking the messenger and NOT the message is a true sign of desperation!
Educate yourself Larry because you’re making yourself look foolish.
Karl Pavloff
Cincinnati 9/11 Truth
Karl, just because you can get a group of people together who believe monkeys fly out of your butt does not mean that monkeys actually will go airborne from your ass.
Try this challenge–Please explain in two paragraphs what the “inside job” was?
Here’s what I believe based on the facts. The Bush Administration ignored the warnings on terrorism and had relegated counter terrorism to a status as a third class citizen. Why? They were convinced that building a missile defense system was their top national security priority. That’s why Bush did not convene or chair a meeting to establish counter terrorism policy until September 2001.
When the attacks unfolded the Bushies were shocked and alarmed. They understood they could be reasonably accused of incompetence and dereliction of duty. They also saw a risk to the relationship with the Saudis because of the nationality of the hijackers.
Bush and company also seized on the attacks to justify going to war with Iraq.
I grant you the 9-11 Commission did a piss poor job of holding anyone accountable and went out of their way to give Bush a pass. This, however, is not proof or evidence of an inside job.
Your simple-minded faith in the ability of the U.S. Government to pull off an operation of this scale without one leak is precious. We know that on matters of secret prisons and Abu Ghraib Bush could not stop the leaks. But in your fantasy world they can keep a complex, multiple attack quiet. Amazing!! Unlike you I have worked in the Government and know firsthand how dysfunctional and incompetent it can be. You like to assume that there is something approximating perfect information and that the President always is on top of what is happening. I, by contrast, know that Presidents have short attention spans and more often than not ignore important matters until they understand their political survival is at stake.
I have been a strong, vocal critic of the Bush Administration. I think they were venal and incompetent. But did they pull off the attacks on 9-11? Were they the masterminds of 9-11? No, and hell no.
Let’s not forget. The Bush team declared “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq without accomplishing anything other than unleashing chaos in Iraq. A chaos that ultimately discredited the Republican Party.
Thanks for writing Karl.
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Yeah I’ll never understand the truther movement. If only because they’re giving the Bush administration credit for being able to carry out a plan well.
All the Bush team did was try and cover up their ineptitude and mistakes the entire time they were in office. I have no faith that they would be able to carry off such an elaborate scheme because they are a bunch of bungling morons.
LOL! Good point, Miss M.
While I agree with that (to a degree), The Bush cabal also had/have a very dumbed-down public with which they could sell this idea to and it has sold well. It sold illegal wars and occupations. It sold the idea of WMDs (none found). It sold the idea that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 and had ties to Al Qaeda (no responsibility or ties). It sold the idea that it was necessary to go into Afgahnistan (the US has been there since Oct. 2001). All of which we all now know are lies.
But for some reason, you’ll buy the idea that 19 mindless idiots who couldn’t fly Cessnas flew two commerical airliners, at cruising speed, making very tight S-turns, hit direct targets - twice.
Start asking questions. You may not like what you find and that is the whole issue. Your own fear.
Thanks for this followup article, Larry. I’ve been bemused over the years by the dogged tenacity of the 9/11 truthers, despite the vast tonnage of scrupulously detailed reporting done by engineers, scientists and architects, all of which have confirmed that 1) the planes hit the towers and 2) the towers went down because of this (full disclosure: I don’t think Oswald acted alone).
I have my own ‘conspiracy’ theory about the 9/11 truthers: it seems to me that these folks dwell in very close proximity to the professional Clinton-haters. Almost every time I see an 9/11 truther screed or comment it’s followed closely by another nut job screeching about how Clinton was a traitor and let Bin Laden get away.
I imagine that we’ll see that played out in the comments here as well. Another payment for our right to be unreasonable in public.
craig……..clinton did in fact let bin laden go…several times…bin laden was in the cross hairs of a cia assassin…clinton said no…..sudan offered him up numerous times…..please dont try to revise history…I dont think clinton was a traitor…I just think he failed at his job. nothing more…nothing less….P.S. this isnt what you call “screeching” these are the facts as history has recorded it…not me or any bias I may have..
You’re the one rewriting history!
Sudan never offered Bin Laden to the US. They offered him to Saudi Arabia.
wrong…..Bill clinton is on the record saying…”We didnt have the legal authority to bring him here”…..those are the words of a president who obviously had a decision to make about bin laden….wether or not to accept the sudan’s offer. Clinton turned them down
You have to wonder if we had a President at the time who wasn’t first a lawyer whether he would have looked at this differently. When does morality and justice trump the written law of man? Surely, you could make the case that this ended up being Bush’s downfall. But if you can make that case then the inverse truth probably holds for Clinton, because on this issue, he was the anti-Bush. Because this trumping of moral authority and justice in deference to the written law of man also had it’s price.
if you can believe what the goverment of Sudan say then you can believe any thing. It didn’t happen they never offered him it was a lie, they lie every mintue they exhale
…and we have the first entry, almost word for word what has been said every other time by GWB apologists and Clinton-haters.
As Linda Ellerbee used to say: “And so it goes.”
Im not apologizing for bush.and I dont hate clinton…….and I stand behind my post.and the quote i love the most is this. “the truth shall set you free”
Who cares if one hates Clinton? He’s the fool that allowed Larry Summers (now under Obama), in 1999, to repeal the Glass-Steagall Act that now has us in this financial fiasco.
It was one of the most sensible and smartest regulatory measures ever to be written into law in the US. Clinton allowed it to be shot down.
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp
Who would they be? Because the same people you mention, that I’ve read, say different (see link below).
For me to believe that, the effect should have been immediate. Upon impact. That was not the case. That was the smoke and mirrors segment of the “show”.
And what of WTC 7? NIST has changed their tune many-a-time from diesel tanks in the basement to the point of now stating that it fell, when not having been hit by a plane, due to ‘thermal expansion’ when it experienced sparse fires on only a few floors (Sorry Larry, a firefighter is not a structural engineer).
Apart from the WTC site, you have Shanksville where we were told of a plane crash, yet there was no evidence of a plane crash. No bodies, no debris. Bizarre. Then the Pentagon. Another red herring. All that was found there was a small, single turbine fan blade assembly that is nowhere near the size of the turbine fan blades (x 2) that are in a Boeing 757 commercial aircraft.
One day, the truth will come out. Just as the truth about other events that took us to war have (Gulf of Tonkin as an example).
One has to wonder why all the blockage ranging from no investigation of what was a very large murder scene on 9/11 to the rapid clean-up of that murder scene; to where victims families are blocked from suing; to present where people simply accept the “official” version as truth. No questions asked. It was 19 guys in a cave (7 of whom are still alive). It’s a done deal. One of which (Bin Laden) they can’t seem to find after 8 years of being in Afghanistan that is now expanding and spilling over into Pakistan (pipelineistan).
I don’t know guys. I’m not an expert. But the questions are too many and the answers that are given are too few and are much too simplistic that defy logic and reason.
I’m not asking you to believe or accept what I think. Just take some time and search over the points I made in this reply.
Cheers,
http://www.ae911truth.org/
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hijackers.html
http://911review.org/Wget/www.kathymcmahon.utvinternet.com/wag/wag/911_pentagon_turbine.htm
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml
Pestulant Beastie: Lord have mercy. What a jumble of opinions.
Since you confess you’re not up on facts here’s something for you to ponder over. On 9/11 I was working in a building that’s about 5 minutes from the Pentagon. Two of my colleagues were on the highway when the plane crashed into the Pentagon. One was so close that he could actually feel the wind shear when the plane flew over his car. They were both severely traumatized by what they saw and were further brutalized when people like you started calling their work numbers and flooding their e-mail inboxes with demented screeds accusing them of being liars and possibly Zionists (of course). Shame on you.
“Lord have mercy. What a jumble of opinions.”
Uh. No. They were points.
“Since you confess you’re not up on facts here’s something for you to ponder over.”
Wrong again. I said that I’m not an expert.
“Two of my colleagues were on the highway when the plane crashed into the Pentagon. One was so close that he could actually feel the wind shear when the plane flew over his car.”
That is the cleanest front lawn of any building that has supposedly hit by a large commercial airliner. The rest of that is what you said is B.S. If that were the case, the force of air pressure would have flung his car like a toy.
“They were both severely traumatized by what they saw and were further brutalized when people like you started calling their work numbers and flooding their e-mail inboxes with demented screeds accusing them of being liars and possibly Zionists (of course). Shame on you.”
You’re an ass. Blaming me for what others have done. Classic.
Thanks for these thoughtful remarks.
Couple of points:
There was “rapid cleanup” of the murder scene? That cleanup went on for weeks and weeks.
The 9/11 families were prohibited from suing ONLY if they accepted money from the 9/11 fund:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-07-13-911-families-cover-usat_x.htm
As to the other stuff no comment.
And during that time, there was no forensic identification done. So what is your issue, that it tooks ‘weeks and weeks’ to clean up the scene or that there was NO investigation in that time? Priorities. Pick your battles.
Quoting USA Today? Ha! Nevertheless, you’re thinking is that as long as (some of) the families were given hush, they should simply shut up and walk away and be satisfied? And you’re happy with that? Wow, you should be running for Senate.
Actually it was rapid as the steel was removed inside of 18 days.
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html#ref1
Stuff your USA Today story. I don’t use lamestream media presstitute stories. They’re the ones that sold to you that it was a good idea to invade Iraq - based on lies.
Speaking of which:
http://tinyurl.com/nvj3uw
Craig Della Penna: “…despite the vast tonnage of scrupulously detailed reporting done by engineers, scientists and architects, all of which have confirmed that 1) the planes hit the towers and 2) the towers went down because of this”
Please, point me to where this has been confirmed????????
I didn’t read this post word for word because I’ve read all these arguments before and am not convinced. Not being an expert on any this, I have to rely on my personal experience. For example, years ago I remember reading in a chemical engineering journal a short article about concerns related to explosive hazards and radio transmission near petroleum refineries. I don’t know how those concerns were resolved; for all I know someone could have actually figured out a way to detonate explosive materials using radio transmissions. Would the powers that be let us know if they did…I don’t think so….Crazy, isn’t it?
Cherry picking, cherry picking. That’s an expression I learned reading 9/11 materials. Just about everyone does it…on both sides. I would make an exception for Dr David Ray Griffin who is an absolutely exceptional and superior examiner of the facts and who has reluctantly concluded that 9/11 was an inside job. When someone can discredit Dr Griffin, I might reconsider my tendency to attribute the collapse of the towers to something other than the airplane collisions.
Oh, and I am not a Clinton hater. I admire both Clintons, although I think Bill has tarnished his image much more by hanging around with George HW Bush than by hanging around with Monica Lewinsky. Hillary wore orange when she gave her speech at the Democratic convention. For a period of time, orange was the color of 9/11 protesters. Hillary has a reputation for being quite a savvy politician. I am surprised she made such a egregious gaffe in her choice of wardrobe. Someone should have told her to choose Barbara Bush blue or blazing red…not orange. Crazy, isn’t it.
I’m not aware of the association of orange with 911 but I do know that it was adopted from the Ukrainian Orange Revolution for use by voting integrity advocates in the wake of the 2004 U.S. presidential election. Many of us like to think that it was this association of the color that Hillary was signalling.
Orange? That color was adapted after the bogus
2000 election (in solidarity with disfranchised
Florida voters–the sunshine state, full of homegrown navel oranges). I know because I wore
a little orange ribbon on my coat and a black armband on my arm in the days before and during
Bush’s inauguration. I also tied orange and black
steamers to a wreath on my front door that autumn.
I am indeed dogged and passionate and tenacious about democracy.
Power to the people! 9/11 was an inside job and
no amount of fancy footwork or convoluted
propaganda can change the laws of physics. Denial
is the defense mechanism of choice for many.
Reclaim your conscious mind and your conscience.
Rehashing partisan politics is treadmill thinking.
Every politician has been sucked into the moral vacuum created by international power brokers.
Where’s your tax money? Follow the money and the dots will connect themselves.
Thanks for this post, Lily. I agree on the importance of Griffin’s work, with its firm grasp of all relevant sources. Texts like his provide a necessary corrective to the extremely limited range of people who seek to debunk the 911 Truth movement. Some very helpful background material and balanced interpretation is provided by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed in his two books (1)The War on Freedom: How & Why America Was Attacked, September 11 2001 and (2)The War on Truth: 9/11, Disinformation, and the Anatomy of Terrorism.
Karl Pavloff: I was there… worked in the WTC 1 for 3 years. I was close enough to smell the burning fuel. I saw the buildings collapse and believe me there were no explosives. I was a few blocks away and not closer because the police told us to move away from the building because WTC 2 was leaning. Can I ask you where these explosives would have been stored. Were they in someone’s office?
http://www.theresistancemanifesto.com/documents/Operation_North_Woods.pdf
Now Karl…you know that they would never do something and blame another country.
More 9-11 Conspiracy Nuttiness : NO QUARTER…
[15] Ten days after the 9/11 attacks, after quoting the above passage, Timothy Noah concludes a post in his “Chatterbox” feature at Slate: “Johnson’s analysis, we now see, was bold, persuasive, and 100 percent wrong. ……
How absurd to believe that our govt. would conspire to do something this horrible and then blame another country!!! Not in the US **pffffttttttt**
http://www.theresistancemanifesto.com/documents/Operation_North_Woods.pdf
For the 9/11 truther’s theories to hold up, a huge number of implausible cherry picked issues have to be stacked like a house of cards, and if one card is removed, the whole insanely intricate structure collapses. ALL of the ACTUAL events, from girders being launched hundreds of feet, to metal failure and the collapse of building 7, have very simple and straight forward explainations that fall within the parameters of physics, and are consistent with every scrap of video footage of the event.
The concept of Occam’s razor should be employed. Essentially, this maxim instructs that usually, the simplest explaination is the correct one, and multiplying complexity and factoring in many possible (but unlikely) issues will only serve to distort beyond recognition the basic reality of the subject. Put simply, when you hear hoofbeats in Wyoming, think horses not Zebras.
Please show how your version of Occam’s Razor applies to 911. Would it go something like this: In all previous instances of the simultaneous hijacking of four airplanes, the crashing of two of them into the Twin Towers, the collapse of the buildings in what resembled controlled demolition, the similar collapse of the third building without being hit by a plane, the crashing of another of the hijacked planes in Pennsylvania leaving no debris, and the vanishing of the fourth plane into a top secret black hole in the pentagon, etc.–whenever we have this darned scenario the simplest explanation has usually been….(OK, Onofre, here’s where you give us your simple explanation. It will be interesting to see whether your replica of Occam’s Razor is dull, nicked, and rusty like that wielded by Larry Johnson and others.)
An important qualification of Occam’s idea of parsimony is usually paraphrased “all things being equal.” How do you work that into the analysis of a sui generis event like 911?
The simplest response to your massive non sequitur and complete distortion of the basic premise is this: The generally accepted scenario of the 9/11 events has the overwhelming physical and visual evidence, and eyewitness testimony to support it (all things being equal, it’s the simplest explaination), while the 9/11 truthers have to resort to wild and complicated evidentiary contortions to support their position (the most complicated explaination). Occam’s razor is perfectly applied here.
“Invisible aliens from outer space orchestrated the events and destruction on 9/11.” Show me the irrefutable evidence and proof that this scenario is any less plausible than the explainations cooked up by the 9/11 conspiracists. It can’t be done unless certain premises are agreed upon. Since the adoption and acceptence of basic premises are not mutual to the opposing factions regarding 9/11, no resolution can be created. For instance, until a reasonable alternate accounting of the whereabouts of two plane loads of people can be produced, the 9/11 truthers have a huge hole in their plot, and it is only one huge hole in a plot with countless other gigantic holes. How many whoppers of this sort do you expect normal, common sensed people to swallow?
I suppose we could assume for the moment that the generally accepted scenario you refer to would be that provided by the published report of the 9ll committee. This document is notorious for its omission and distortion of crucial evidence, eye-witness testimony, and scientific facts; for its failure to investigate matters directly related to the issues at hand; for its misleading statements and questionable and absurd interpretations. And yet many people are willing to accept this scenario because it appears to be the simplest.
By the way, the whereabouts of two planeloads of people certainly is a problem, one that those who want the truth of 911 have mentioned repeatedly as being totally overlooked in the accounts offered by proponents of the simple theory.
The mental contortions resorted to by apologists for the generally accepted scenario remind me of the fictions of the Warren Report. How simple it seemed that a lone assassin, etc., etc.
Gasp!
The 9/11 Commission are “truthers!”
http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2008/01/whitewash.html
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/just-like-with-iraq-facts-regarding-911.html
They won’t read the links, mountainaires. They’d rather criticize and name-call than to look into matters with an open mind.
It’s far easier to deny, accept and to go back to the sofa for ass-planting to watch the latest in humiliation TV (reality TV) and to see who is winning the latest popularity contest (American Idol).
Onofre’s arm: “ALL of the ACTUAL events, from girders being launched hundreds of feet, to metal failure and the collapse of building 7, have very simple and straight forward explainations that fall within the parameters of physics.”
Yes they do. The World Trade Towers were blown up top-down through the aid of explosive charges.
Censorship is a wonderful thing!
Our govt. would never do something to harm us and then blame it on another country.
“Operation Northwoods”
I think it’s likely there’s a combination of both things happening - it was real terrorists but the US government purposefully turned a blind eye for its own agenda.
I am just wondering why the need to use the “crazy” label? Why is a belief that is outside the mainstream automatically make someone “insane”? I’ve heard radio shows on why the moon landing was a hoax, and while I am not convinced it was, the arguments gave me enough doubt about it to wonder. Does this make me “crazy”?
Real truth is so hard to come by these days. Heck, I’ve found out recently that a friend I trusted lies to me regularly. I had no idea before finding out!
Could it be that the government feigns incompetence sometimes in order to cover up its real agenda? Possibly. I’m not saying that’s a probably. But it is possible!
So I’d say there’s no reason to slam 9/11 Truthers who are OBVIOUSLY passionate and concerned about their country and dismiss them as simple “lunatics.”
I am one of those conspiracy theorists” who thinks that we do have some sort of shadow government in the form of a wealthy elite. Do I think they are running around being Satanists too? No. But it makes sense to me that people with deep pockets are trying to manipulate things. I think those people are behind Obama. Does this make me insane? No? I think it makes me smart.
To each their own.
I’m with you, HoB.
Give me people with skepticism about their government who dare to be ridiculed for asking questions over a populace who is apathetic, idolizing, or lazy when it comes to checking up on them.
I know what you mean. Especially when it comes to certain people. I won’t mention any names, but the initials are ‘Onofre’s arm’.
think it’s likely there’s a combination of both things happening - it was real terrorists but the US government purposefully turned a blind eye for its own agenda
for a long time I had the same feelings. They did know there was something going on but for some reason just let it happen. May be they didn’t quite know the scope of it. or
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HELP! ! ! ME TOO! ! !
Can’t we figure out a way to accuse the CIA of this? I mean, now would be the time, since the Agency is continuously lying to Congress, anyway. I think that the case of the Agency explosively lying to Congress in such a way that it melted the steel and the WTC collapsed could be made convincingly to the 9/11 truth seekers. I’m certainly willing to lie about this, and I’m sure that we could find some other former colleagues to join in. We could change the familiar childhood chant to, “Liar, liar, WTC on fire.” Jeez!
What do you (LJ) make of the other two incidents at the Pentagon and Flight 93 (which they’re trying to make into a pro-jihadist memorial–caosblog/atlas shrugs)?
Pentagon video shows no plane just a wingless projectile, and Flight 93 had no debris, or so I’ve heard.
Also, having been sensitized to the tactics of Obamallinsky (racist and tinfoil) … whenever we see an all out assault of RIDICULE instead of factual argumentation, it forces application of credibility to that argument being ridiculed instead of logically countered.
Sometimes, when sound reasoning get’s nowhere, as with flat earthers, 9/11 truthers, moon landing deniers, and man-made global warming dolts, ridicule is all that’s left.
Funny you should bring up “man-made global warming” because it’s primarily conspiracy theorists who think global warming is a hoax.
Personally, I think you just hurt your credibility there. I think pollution does effect our environment. I’m not entirely convinced global warming is our big issue but can we all agree that excessive pollution is not desirable?
global warming might not be a hoax…..it might be the cyclical nature of our planet….but it is not man-made……
CO2 is a product of our respiration, and is necessary for plant life… it is not a toxin. There are plenty of real toxins in petroleum exhaust and CO2 isn’t one of them. I find the carbon tax oppressive, especially since we can’t help but to breathe out CO2. But, it’s not even about the carbon, it’s about the redistributive tax that the “carbon credits” will siphon from. The same greed that crashed our financial markets is bringing us a new carbon market. Why am I not surprised? How long until we get the water market with “water credits”? Yes, pollution is real, but it is beside the point. The point is, as long as we have disposable income, we are going to be targets for these ridiculous schemes.
There was an article the other day that said that tomatoes should be banned as they are huge CO2 culprits. (I read the headline but would not click on the article to validate it’s importance.)
“CO2 is a product of our respiration, and is necessary for plant life… it is not a toxin. There are plenty of real toxins in petroleum exhaust and CO2 isn’t one of them.”
Ha, ha, ha. We aren’t plants and if C02 is not a toxin, fill up a couple of tanks and inhale deeply. I doubt you’ll last as long as the C02 supply.
I think we can all agree that H2O is not a toxin, and I would like you to stick your head in a bucket full of it and take a few deep breaths.
CO2 is a natural and necessary gas for life on earth. There were periods in the past when CO2 concentrations were ten times what they are now, and the planet didn’t spin off in a ball of flames.
Holy out-of-left-field. Thanks, Bill Nye.
Subject matter too much for you? Changing the topic?
If Al Gore is your man, then he is your man. Doesn’t make him right. Doesn’t make him a scientist. Were he to be right, we might have debate over this subject instead of asserting it has already been debated. It has not been debated or proven. You might agree with the “by any means” methodology now… wait until this same thinking extends to water and food. Environmental fascism is still fascism.
PB, if stupidity were a physical force, yours would be powerful enough to knock down the WTC. Back on topic now.
Why does it have to be either/or? Can’t it be cyclical but our human activities can also have an impact?
Actually, the whole manufactured crises of man-made global warming is the conspiracy, and a well documented one. It was initially a theory cooked up by radical environmentalists in the 80’s as a weapon to attack multiple areas of man’s activities on this planet. Governments seized on the issue as a means to control and manipulate private enterprises on a global scale, and spent billions in biased research projects that needed to supply only the evidence that supported AGW, or the researchers would lose their funding. For every indication that man’s activities are warming the planet, there are countless contraindications that demonstrate that he is not. Natural forces and cycles are so immense by our anthropocentric standards that they overwhelm and reduce our contribution to climate change to next to nothing.
Some population experts have placed the number of all people that have ever existed on this planet at around 100 billion. If every one of those people created a cube of waste/pollution/permanent objects, that is 100 feet on a side (an incredibly huge overestimate, since most people that have ever existed have created next to nothing of real permanence), then the total volume of mankind’s waste would create a cube about 90 miles on a side. If the earth were the size of a basketball, that 90 mile cube would be the size of a BB. Scale and perspective are important. Another interesting fact to consider, the total weight of termites on earth outweighs all the people on earth….by 1000 TIMES! They poduce huge quantities of methane which is a vastly more effective greenhouse gas than CO2. Do you think you can stop that from happening?
Scientifically observing, understanding, and drawing educated conclusions from ample credible evidence, does NOT make someone a conspiracy theorist. However, the systematic and concerted manipulation of cherry picked evidence, and dissemination of highly biased propaganda is a very clear example of a real conspiracy. And like Lysenkoism, the hoax of AGW will eventually be exposed so that laymen will understand it.
Very well written, and I agree with you. A few years back I read an internal memo by the “environmentalists” which talked about bringing down the USA by green lining. It is happening all around us.
I believe in being good stewards of the earth. What is going on now is different.
The environment is being used as one more tool in the attempt to implement the NWO.
It was the theory of the Earth being round that was the “crazy” one of the day. Tables do turn, don’t they?
Oh and that the Sun revolved around the Earth. Let’s not forget that one.
Or if you’re David Rockefeller:
Mars, Saturn and Jupiter are closer to the sun than Earth!
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2007/090707closertosun.htm
Onofre’s arm: “ridicule is all that’s left.
In regards to 9/11, that is all the defenders of the official conspiracy had from the beginning. Ridicule and propaganda are the only things that can be used against the Truth Movement, because there is no evidence supporting the official conspiracy theory.
stop drinking the kool-aid….there most certainly is a plane taped going into the pentagon…..and flight 93 had wreckage over 3 miles long…
Flight 93 was the one that had people calling relatives from the air, isn’t it? About the Pentagon flight, though, was there ever a passenger list released for it, or were relatives of those passengers ever interviewed? I’ve never heard this question answered.
Solicitor General Ted Olson spoke with his wife Barabara before the plane she was on flew into the Pentagon.
Craaaaaaaap! If you read one link that is supplied to all that we present, read this one:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8514
Wake up!
And even with all the links I’ve provided to back up what I’m saying, the absolute best, and I mean, the level best, that you could come up with is a reponse to me (above) that said:
And this is the reaction from deniers and accepters of the official lie. No debate, just name-calling. Even when the article I referenced in the above article stated:
…after you stated (with no facts to back it up):
You want to reconsider the fact of who is indeed ’stupid’.
Oh you mean the Pentagon security pics that have the crucial frames missing from it that would actually identify what actually hit it? Sure. I’d like to see what you saw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paWiZ2Y8fRg
I have friends who were sitting in the DEA building across from the Pentagon who saw the plane. And there was wreckage. The problem with the camera at the Pentagon is the same problem you’d have if you went to an Indy 500 race wearing a set of blinders and forced to stare at one physical point. As the cars flash by all you would see is a blur of color. No definite shape.
Do you think that Ted Olsen would happily go along with the fiction that his wife was killed at the Pentagon when, if the conspiracists are right, she’s being held somewhere against her will or was executed? Olsen is not a fool.
To me there is no doubt that the plane hit the pentagon; no doubt about the buildings falling; on those two issues, I simply do not dispute.
But there is doubt on much else, involving the 9/11 Commission report, and the 9/11 Commission itself has asserted they were lied to, and information was obstructed, therefore the report was not an honest, forthcoming result.
The Chief Counsel of the Commission says there was an agreement at some point, not to tell the truth to the American public. Now, governments often lie–whether its to protect the public or themselves–but the fact that the 9/11 Commission has rubbished its own report should be troubling to Americans.
They don’t deserve to be mocked for questioning why the 9/11 Commissioners themselves don’t believe their report is either accurate or honest.
Interesting statement. Were they spending their morning just staring out the window? Foreknowledge?
Which sounds exactly as you described what your buddies were doing.
.
I beg to differ with that opinion. Many do.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8514
Mr Johnson, I ask you to respond to my comments. Maybe you can save Michael Hayden’s treasonous reputation by responding to the very reasonable question I posed to him which he did not, more likely, could not, respond to without implicating himself in a treasonous manner. Maybe you can fare better.
——–
Can anybody say “Treason,” under Article III Section 3 of the Constitution, in attempting, willingly and with malice aforethought, to cover-up an act of war and give aid and comfort to the enemies that actually architected and coordinated the 9/11/01 black op terrorist attacks (by attacking those doggedly pushing questions and answers forward)?
The gig is up Mr. Johnson. The only question is who is going to go down with those who decided to put the advanced nano-thermite materials in the buildings ( look up the discovery of this material in the peer-reviewed paper at the Bentham Open Chemical Physics Journal and go see how the VP reacted to receiving this information at our wearechangela you tube site) and coordinate the multiple overlapping mimetic wargames and terror drills that served as cover for the operational conduct of the attacks.
The American people of moral and intellectual integrity are demanding you come clean soon Mr. Arnold. How about today?
Oh yeah, while you are at it, let’s see if you can honestly answer a version of the question I posed to former NSA and CIA boss Hayden when he was in town last year:
How is it possible that Mossad was in place in New Jersey to both film and celebrate the attacks as they got underway, while Hayden and the rest of the top tier of the acting civilian, military and intelligence command structure found out about the 1st hit on the towers from watching CNN or another TV News station and then immediately, after numerous warnings from many sources, thought of pilot error and went back to doing what they were doing?
Is that possible?
If it is, how did Mossad know it was something to celebrate about while Bush, Myers, Hayden etc. went about their business?
I’m a proud Jewish man, so no ‘anti-semitic’ or ’self-hating Jew slander’ will work in helping you try to dismiss dealing with the facts. In fact, the worst, most violently destructive anti-semitic conspiracy theory to human lives over the last 8 years is the one Mr. Johnson continues to push, that 19 Arab men with boxcutters stood down the FBI, NORAD and the laws of physics.
Get a plausible deniability alibi quick Mr Johnson, since your massively limited ‘incompetence’ hang-out is getting more limited and incompetent by the moment.
Jeremy R-K,
Thanks very much for calling attention to some important issues.
I apologize for calling you Mr. Arnold, Mr. Johnson.
The rest stands.
Do we have videos of Mossad celebrating the crashing of the airliners into WTC (peferably taped real time with the airlines in the background)? If so, I would really like to see these. Also, how can we identify the celebraters as Mossad? Dress? Dialog?
When the truthers lack evidence or have gaping holes in their theory, they just make stuff up to fill the gaps, and challenge everyone else to diprove the fantasy. Don’t waste your time trying to find evidence of celebrating Mossad, if it existed, the truthers would have it plastered everywhere.
Ahem. It does and it is. You’re far too lazy to look for what is quite easy to find.
Just Google ‘Five Dancing Israelis’
Here is a video for you watch as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw
Especially listen closely at the 1:42
Or this article:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html
The video is unremarkable. The article is more interesting, because the sources can be checked, although the website itself is hardly unbiased.
Still, I would’ve thought that the Mossad would be more professional than to film themselves celebrating 9/11, as the article and other sources claim. My generation of intelligence officer would never have taken a photo or video that could be incriminating.
But, judging from the Agency’s own “Italian job,” I guess the younger spooks on all sides have been caught up in the current persponal technology revolution. Oddly, the dangers in this are outlined in an excellent 2002 book titled “Smart Mobs.” It’s dated, but worth a read. Quite prophetic.
It’s 2009, since when do you need to hook up wires to a detonator to set explosives off? Also, how many security cameras are there inside and outside the Pentagon? Hundreds? A good number of them should have recorded something.
When explosives are fired in sequence, as is required with a massive controlled demolition, they are put together in sequence.
That’s not necessarily accurate Mr. Johnson. When using primacord as the method of linkage between charges, you do get sequential firings as the explosive reaction progresses along the length of the cord. But it is also possible and common to use electrically activated caps that have internally controlled time delays that will also create sequential explosions from an initial instantaneous electrical charge. In mining, we used blasting caps that were numbered zero through twenty, the lower the number, the sooner the cap would explode, but they were all activated at the same time by a single electrical charge. It makes no difference where along the circuit that the cap is wired, they all activate at the same time and explode according to their particular delay time. Just FYI.
But that’s not how folks who do controlled demolitions work. Let’s also remember the allegation here–the US government supposedly pre-wired these buildings to destroy them. Where was the team with the detonators firing switch sitting?
I understand that Mr. Johnson. I’ve also done quite a bit of demolition work myself. The truthers don’t have a clue to the complexity or physical alterations that are required to set up controlled building implosions. It is not possible to make those alterations and plant the charges without EVERYONE noticing. Placing shaped charges in critical areas requires weeks if not months of drilling, stripping, jack-hammering, and running wires everywhere. To top off the absurdity of the whole concept, the two planes would not only have had to hit the buildings in such a way as to not disturb the elaborate charge set-up, but the person setting off the imaginary charge would have to miraculously time it precisely so that at the onset of the predictable failure of structures hit by commercial jets, the resulting shitstorm would disguise the planned demolition. Anybody thinking this is at all possible needs to have their brain overhauled.
Since you know oh-so-much about demolition, you should then know that for a buidling to fall the charges were placed well below where the planes had hit. They wouldn’t be placed at the level where the planes hit and not above where the planes hit. You do know how gravity works, do you not?
And watching the buildings collapse with my own eyes, as it happened, the buildings clearly started to collapse at the points where the jets hit them, not below the impact points. Or was all of the live news footage instantaneously altered to fool all of us?
I know. Ignorance is bliss. But you really need to spend some time over here
http://www.ae911truth.org/
“Ignorance is bliss” as you put it. You should know, you seem to have cornered the market on that commodity.
How could that be? I’m the one with the INFO that you willfully ignore.
Yeah? Then watch this:
This Is An Orange
http://tinyurl.com/kvtepj
probably in the building 7 evidence and spook hut
You don’t need to have them wired:
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/thermite/blasting_scenario.html
As for the security cameras, read point 6 and then research it further for yourself:
http://www.toronto911truth.com/flyer1back.pdf
I agree 100% Larry. This nuttiness of the 9/11 truthers has got to stop.
I can’t figure who’s crazier: The 9/11 Truthers or those whack-job who think Obama was born in Kenya/Canada/Indonesia.
The 9/11 truthers are obviously crazier. It would require thousands of people to be in on the conspiracy that truthers have proposed, and not a single one of them could break ranks or the whole insane plot would be exposed. Only a small handfull of people could know the truth of Obama’s birthplace, a birth that had little significance at the time it happened, and would not register much interest or generate much documentation. Such an unremarkable event would be relatively easy to contain or alter in comparison to the world shaking events on 9/11.
Anyone drawing a relative comparison between the two events is crazier than the truthers.
Foot In Mouth Disease:
But instead, you would rather believe the “official version” that it was just 19 guys in a cave! Ha, ha, ha!
Onofre’s arm: “The 9/11 truthers are obviously crazier. It would require thousands of people to be in on the conspiracy that truthers have proposed.”
You don’t have any idea about the number of people required to pull off this operation, much less to assume it must be in the thousands.
“…and not a single one of them could break ranks or the whole insane plot would be exposed.”
To break ranks after 9/11, would be tantamount to confessing to mass murder. Most people will not do that voluntarily.
“Not one big success of the Mossad has ever been made public”
Ephraim Halevy, head of Israel’s Mossad from 1998 until 2002
Johnny: BO’s COLB is a forgery, HI law gives out COLBs to foreign-borns, and he’s spent over $1million hiding his real BC.
You are the nutter anyway, because no matter where he was born he is not a natural born citizen. In the fake-gift-to-McCain Senate Resolution 511 “granting” him natural born status (which only a Constitutional amendment could do), Obama as cosponsor defines a natural born citizen as born of TWO US Citizen parents on US soil. He fails that definition because his father was Kenyan.
Now as to where he was born, that is the focal point his idiots wish to perpetuate, though it’s moot considering he’s already not eligible by definition of NBC codified into law since 1758.
It’s vicious disingenuous redirection on your part away from the LAW which Obama fails before getting out of the gates. We have an installed usurper and even Obama agrees to that. Now, you don’t want to defy your cultmaster do you?
Hilarious! Thanks for the laugh!
His COLB is fake? Really? According to who…right wing extremist blogs? His COLB has been on the world wide web since May and not ONE person of any repute in the field of digital forensics will refute its authenticity. Why is that?
I don’t think there are videos necessarily except for the copy of the video that the mossad assets took that is either caught up somewhere in the US National Security State or has been destroyed. However, the FBI, who detained the Israeli nationals, developed the photos they took and they allegedly show the men clearly celebrating in front of the attacked World Trade Center. The nationals were originally arrested by Bergen County Police I believe and at one point said something to the effect of-We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are your problems. The Palestinians are your problem.
Interesting that we saw a loop of Palestinians celebrating on 9/11, much of that footage actually having been filmed months earlier at a wedding, while it was hardly reported that the entire Bush administration was salivating at the tremendously ‘lucky’ opportunity and elements of our alleged closest ally on the ‘War on Terror’ were celebrating right across the water from the attacks.
This quick write-up I did about James Bamford’s handling of Israeli-owned company involvement in the NSA’s domestic wiretap program has good info and links about Mossad set-up on 9/11 and also about NSA special center being evacuated as the attacks progressed.
It is here:
James Bamford’s dubious sense of irony when it comes to Israeli firms cornering the market on NSA’s major “mass surveillance”
http://www.911blogger.com/node/18167
The other way to find this write-up is by googling together the name of 3 FBI agents who were investigating this:
Robert F. Taylor, Jr., Bill Lloyd and Dave O’Brien
who have since been apparently transferred from the FBI’s Newark office
also see:
http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/2007/06/israeli-art-students-and-movers-story.html
which is fairly thorough article by Wayne Madsen
Can you imagine how betrayed I feel, as a Jewish American man, to deal with the facts that show that elements within both of the states that operate in my name appear to be intimately involved in something as horrendous as the 9/11/01 black op terrorist attacks and the subsequent, anti-semitically driven ‘War on Terror?’ But I must for the sake of all that is at stake.
Mr. Johnson’s silence around the multiple mimetic wargames and terror drills
reminds me of another ‘former’ CIA guy Robert Baer, who took every opportunity to evade them when I asked him about it. At least Baer had the self-respect to attempt to deal with the Mossad set-up in New Jersey, even though his explanation would be laughable if we weren’t dealing with a treasonous matter of life and death, war and peace.
See that here: WeAreChangeLA debriefs CIA Case Officer Robert Baer about apparent Mossad and White House 9/11 foreknowledge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z5BnihtWfs&feature=channel_page
p.s. The National Reconaissance Office’s drill, apparently run by the CIA, of a plane running into their building got started as the attacks got started and all “non-essential” personnel were then told to go home.
p.p.s. Mr Johnson, why don’t you come join those of us patriots living together in this thing called reality. Our country and Liberty cannot take the deceptive back-stabbing anymore.
You’re an idiot. There are multiple military exercises run every year. It is called training.
imho..no conspirasy here.
First I have heard of this… what proof is there?
The steel beems had location markers on them when the stuctures were erected and would provide forensic understanding. What information exists to support this statement?
In what ajacent building were the beams found and at what precise location and angle of entry for each beam?
Now I like a good conspiracy theory as much as the next kite, but the good ones have some basis in fact.
I will not mix the blood and tears of those lost and their loved one that died on that day with such a sad tale of tinfoil.
Thank you Teak. This thread is bizarre.
What is there to thank Teak for?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djwBCEmHrSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtx_GcFCs6c
Well Teak, that is the problem. If you were paying attention, you’d see that one of the issues we have are the fact that there was no forensic identification done at this murder scene and that murder scene was rapidly cleaned and cleared.
What, are you kidding? Have you never seen the many buildings that surrounded the twin towers? Angle? Lateral and from above. They were 110 storey buildings. They towered over everything that was around them.
.
You just got them. There are more if you look for them instead of being obtuse.
Absurd! What a shameful statement. It is because we are pressing for the answers that, one day, we will all learn what happened to those people besides the “offical” lie. And that is what this is about.
It is because of your complacency that we don’t want those who did perish that day to have done so in vain.
Have you never seen the many buildings that surrounded the twin towers? Angle? Lateral and from above. They were 110 storey buildings. They towered over everything that was around them.
No I am not kidding.
And Yes, I am a very familar with WTC and the towers. I watched them being built. My brother had his wedding reception in the resturant Eyes of the World. He is gone and so is it. Or do you care to ask my niece about it.
My My My Complancy? Fine then obtuse it it is.
On one hand you can’t say with ANY certainty where the beams came from.
And with as much respect I as I can muster …Fuck you. My friends died in that shit.
People I grew up with. You don’t think I do not want answers? The answers I want are not that my government was a party to conspiracy and murder.
But why they failed to stop it.
As you state you have no forensic evidence. Obtuse my ass.
I don’t know the reality of 9/11 but I remember the stories of Mohammed Atta’s passport being miraculously found several blocks away.
Weird . How & why did that story start/end?
Also I have never understood how these guys were such good pilots to swerve around NY airspace & get their target directly. ditto the Pentagon. Flight Stimulators cannot be that efficient teachers.
Hey maybe AirFrance ought to have hired graduates of that Florida Airschool?
A huge failure was the lack of defence of washington airspace.
There will always be mysteries.thinking -.Im still stuck back on 9/12
-haven’t got much further in comprehension.
Flight Stimulators cannot be that efficient teachers.
No offense intended, but flight sims are VERY good and can be set to simulate all kinds of circumstances. It is enough to become familiar with the lay out of the cockpit and control surfaces and nav systems to do dry runs in minute detail, complete with scenery and radio traffic.
Sitting behind the stick is of course different than using a sim but imagine practicing some thing in VR until you get to a point where for that one flight you are on “autopilot”.
I am still trying for a decent approach to Telluride, but the pocket rocket I fly can always fly to a GPS point with in a few hundred feet and even if I am just following the nav in manual mode on a clear day like 9/11 was, one has a good chance of setting up on a target like the WTC buildings from a good distance.
In closing, think about the drone jockeys that are flying drones over Iraq Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere… they are in a VR “flight sim” mode.
There is no way for the pilot in that case to “fly” the bird. Yet they are efficient platforms if used properly.
The Saudi cretins flying those planes used flight sims to practice. The only issue that would be a problem is having anyone disturb them while they set up for the run. Which purportedly was the case in Shanksville but I am not certain if it was a shoot down or strictly Todd and crew. I would think if you saw a fighter jet out the window and the plane had been hijacked and you also knew it was a suicide run, there would be a choice to regain control by force or be shot down, both are possible concurrently.
A box canyon like Telluride with turbulent crosswinds should be a challange for a kite to drift in for a soft landing. Shooting down Mammoth Slide is almost as thrilling, I still carry a scar from slamming into a barely covered stump on the first day the slopes were open. At least I knew the area so intimately that I managed to get to the Dunton hot springs for a good soak, and plenty of liquid sedatives at the bar that still has my name carved in it,….. many times. I need to get back there,…. for my sanity. It was Shangri-La. Of course, I was there long before it was a destination of jet-setters, I worked the mines.
Atta’s passport kind of strange isn’t?
I’m not an engineer, I can’t fly a plane; I’m not an expert on explosives.
But I know how to reason.
The US government has committed false flag attacks in the past: it is therefore not beyond conception that we would do so again.
The 9-11 attacks were used to justify a war with Iraq even though the attackers were in the main Saudis, that otherwise would not have been accepted by the American people.
The war directly benefited both the Saudi rulers (oil prices) and our rulers: the defense contractors, financial institutions, and corporations that own our presidents and other government (billions of dollars in contracts).
Did some part of the US government in fact plan 9-11? I don’t know. But it is certainly plausible in much the same way that when someone turns up dead and their spouse has taken out a million dollar life insurance policy on them, the spouse might need a little scrutiny.
As for the WTC buildings being wired, etc, that seems quite to nearly impossible to effect in secrecy. I would guess rather that something was done to the planes.
“Let’s not forget. The Bush team declared “Mission Accomplished” in Iraq without accomplishing anything other than unleashing chaos in Iraq. A chaos that ultimately discredited the Republican Party.”
I would not call lining ones pockets with billions of dollars accomplishing nothing. I don’t think one can even say that nothing has been accomplished militarily. Imo, chaos was the objective and it’s been well achieved. More, we have managed to expand this lucrative war all the way into Pakistan. Who knows how many years the gravy train will last?
As for the Republican party being discredited, so what? It has to be discredited so it can be “remade”. We always knew Cheney would not run for president. Yet there was no real attempt to put forth a clear successor to Bush: because his backers planned to run someone from the “opposite” team. BHO is a mole. He is run by the exact same people that ran Bush. The Democrats’ own weakness in grabbing all the loot they could the minute the opportunity presented will be their undoing, and a new kinder gentler neocon party will be reconstituted as the purported True Roots Conservative party under Palin by 2012. And the same people will still own us.
And why exactly does anyone care what the conspiracy nuts think or are saying?
Two articles? Is it that important?
I agree Whatever. I have a sense that Mr. Johnson sometimes posts these threads to smoke out the tinfoil faction that visits his sight. I also think that he is intentionally drifting away from issues that put Obama in a bad light (which is just about everything) because he is trying to soften his positions on the Obama administration in hopes that he can profit from a more amicable relation with them. There has been a very distinct dropoff of threads that are critical to Obama at NQ, even though his lunacy has been increasing exponentially.
It’s Larry’s prerogative to change the direction of the site if he wants to, but I am concerned that his need to get work will get in the way of the news *I* want to see here, which is keeping up with Obama’s shenanigans.
Are there any others sites that are NOT just right wing sites that cover Obama for PUMAs?
Well, there ya go. Now you ‘deniers’ and us ‘truthers’ have a common goal. But that is another case-in-point. We were called many a name, a year ago, when we warned that Obama was not what he appeared to be.
Especically when we learned who was backing him and who he was surrounding himself with.
Atlas Shrugs used to. I have been busy and have not kept up with things here or over there. The site owner was trying to set up a resistance movement, by getting someone from every county to head them up.
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/
Do you happen to find it ironic that on a thread where LJ is debunking conspiracy theories you supply your own conspiracy theory about LJ?
Just wondering….lol
Do you happen to find it ironic that on a thread where LJ is debunking conspiracy theories…
From what I am seeing, Senor LJ has debunked nothing and answered no questions dealing with the subject at hand. The only thing he has done is to critizice and disagree.
what does that prove
the planes hit the towers, we all seen it
the towers went boom and powder , it was all over the world and there were foreign witnesses also
so what
bin laden does not exist
clinton is bad
bush is bad obama ois bad
what do they want to prove
I am getting lost here
what is the purpose of that
Did the American Government conspire with outside forces on 9-11? Once upon a time I would have said absolutely not. After the last so called election and now the removal of our freedoms one brick at a time, by the Obama administration and his henchmen (lead by Polosi)I have awoke. The New World Order,I once thought was a nutty conspiracy theory is taking place. In the here and now. If the USA falls so goes the world.
That said I can see no reason for the towers to have been taken down by explosives, after they were hit. What would be the point? The planes hitting made the statement and no further action was needed.
Larry: I’m shocked that almost 8 years after 9/11 we’re still “debating” what really happened on that terrible day. It’s sad that you would even have to post a piece stating the obvious. Who are these so-called “Truthers?” Did they not see those planes go into those buildings? Simply unbelievable (and of course I’m referring to the conspiracy nuts who’ve crawled out of the woodwork yet again).
“Did they not see those planes go into those buildings?”
Yeah. We did. We all did. That was the distraction. Did you see one hit the 47 storey WTC 7? Why did it fall? From fire? Ha! This was the first (and last) time in history that 3 buildings fell at near free fall speed from fire. There have been plenty of skyscraper fires before and after 911. None fell. Oh yeah. They were hit by planes. Then explain WTC 7.
But for the belief, that you hold to be true, and for me to have believed it, the effect of the planes hitting the buildings and having the effect that they supposedly did have, should have been immediate upon impact and NOT an hour later. Also note that the second building that was hit fell first and after “burning” for a shorter period of time than the first building that was hit. If you need to know the significance of that, you really need to research the subject matter and understand why it raises questions by “truthers” as criticized by “deniers”.
And that is what you people are: Deniers. You are so in shock that your government could be this heinous. Study history and the onset of wars. You’ll be shocked by what you find.
I used to be a ‘denier’ too. I woke up.
I haven’t read all the comments but I just have to say I am so used to getting beat up for my political opinions I don’t care anymore if Larry calls me a nut. However, I am still waiting for him to tell me about one other steel skyscraper that collapsed anywhere for any other reason than demolition. I haven’t been able to find any.
Feel free to attack me for my personal opinions though. I was at work and all I said about Obama was “Let them eat cake” and my work acquaintance practically called me racist! And I was like excuse me, my first boyfriend was half black and we dated for four years and she gave me the nastiest snottiest look, like ‘ok then, in the alternative, I allege that you are a whore.” I was like you know what, I give up. I don’t understand why people feel the need to visciously attack others who believe different things from them. However, I suppose there will always be ignorant people.
Heather: Talk about apples and oranges. So you have issues with how your coworkers responded to your opinion of Barack Obama, which naturally explains why you’re a Truther. Wow. And the rebuttal of what the Truthers believe is not questioning someone’s political opinion. We’re talking about structural engineering and physics. Apples and oranges.
I think her point is that some of us here know what it’s like to be painted with one brush due to our opposition to Obama. 9/11 Truthers are well-meaning people - I have no problem with Larry pointing out his truth in relation to 9/11 but calling them crazy is judgmental and counterproductive.
How many people called the PUMAs crazy when we tried to get the word out about caucus fraud?
Not saying that 9/11 Truthers are right, but when they are attacked with one paintbrush then you just feed their fuel that it’s a purposeful smear campaign trying to hide more truth.
It would appear that there will probably never be any real dialogue on this site about anything related to what did happen or did not happen on Sept 11,2001 and the days following.
Why because it has come down to two camps deniers and nutcakes. You can never get a dialogue on any subject if you do not try to listen to what the other person is saying. Its almost like try to discuss abortion and pro-life neither extreme wants to listen to the other.
The only way anything is ever resolved is an suppossedly open society as ours is when people stop shouting and start listening to each other.
What am I? Neither a denier or a conspricy nut. I am logical thinker that as I was watching the towers fall on “live” tv I said to my wife there is no way those buildings could collapse that quickly just due to an airplane crash and some subsequent fires so soon after they were hit. So of course then I immediately believed they came down by controlled demolition? Of course not. I also said why did WTC #7 collapse so fast if it was not hit by a plane or had major fires. Did a assume it was controlled demolition? Of course not.
What I did assume after that was that ALL airline crash sites are quaranatined, evidence collected studied by the NTSB in a great amount of detail(remember Lockerbie)and then many months later a thorough and public report is released.
WAS THIS DONE? AND IF NOT WHY??
Next I assumed that as in the case of ALL crime scenes the sites are cordoned off evidence is collected by the appropriate authorities conclusions are drawn and if crimes are committed ppl or institutions are found responsible they are brought to trial and judged by a jury of their peers.
WAS THIS DONE? AND IF NOT wHY?
Teak -Airfrance is down 2 pilots.
.
Also, I heard the whole thing was carried out by al ciada.
9/11 was carried out by cicadas? That’s one theory I’ve never heard.
Sorry, that was al CIAda.
Actually, the term that is common, is phrased in this manner:
Al-CIA-duh.
This is exactly what we don’t need–you knew what she meant.That’s what insecure people do, make fun of the honest mistakes of others.
even my spilling gits critisised.lol
One more thing: You make the obvious point about the incompetence of government workers, many of whom couldn’t organize a two car funeral much less such a cunning conspiracy. Truer words were never spoken. Inertia and incompetence are rewarded and praised. Talent is a firing offense. I don’t think these “Truthers” understand that. Then again they’re all crazy (yeah, I said it) so trying to hammer home “facts” is a waste of time.
Excuse me, but my father worked for the government all his life, and he is NOT lazy or incompetent. That is a ridiculous stereotype not based in truth.
Sure, if you go to the DMV to get your driver’s license, you might run across a person who is annoying to deal with, but those front-line clerks are NOT the people in the background running things.
There are a heck of a lot of smart people in Washington. Don’t kid yourself. Bright minds go there to work.
I don’t know who’s ultimately responsible, but at least do some research on the topic.
I don’t know who’s ultimately responsible, but at least do some research on the topic.
It came from Google. Google had images of it. They had infrared images where you could tell the temperature. It was much higher than the temperature at which jet fuel burns. I’ve seen these images myself. It’s public and common knowledge. At least do a little research into the topic next time. All you’re doing is disputing cold hard facts.
Also, you’re using the EXACT same tactic as the truthers. The truthers see the molten steel in the basement as proof that jet fuel was not responsible. And you see the unlikelyness that the building was wired as proof that it was not controlled demolition. Sorry, but the truthers win on that front. Their theory is simply unlikely (in the effort that it takes to wire the building), but your theory requires breaking the laws of physics.
Next, you attack the messenger isntead of the facts by calling them nuts when they bring forward evidence.
Your entire article is devoid of any rational thought. There is no logic, evidence or any substance at all.
More lumping. Stop it.
There are many people who question what happened on 9/11, who do not subscribe to anything having to do with how the buildings fell after being hit by airplanes.
The questions center on why military and intelligence obstructed information going to the 9/11 Commission.
Those are valid questions, since the 9/11 commissioners have stated clearly that they were lied to, and information was obstructed.
We should have answers from our government about what happened on 9/11, whether it has to do with how the buildings fell, or why information was withheld, or misrepresented to the 9/11 Commission.
Until these answers are addressed, there will continue to be a growing number of Americans who QUESTION the government’s narrative about what happened.
Deriding people for asking questions is not the way to stop the questions. It only invites more skepticism, and frankly, this continuing mockery only makes me more determined to continue to point out that there are conspiracies that happen to be true; therefore, all conspiracy theorists are not nutty.
Answer the questions; and the questions will stop.
Its wack jobs like these people and the present administration’s water boarding revealation that are destroying our nation…
We now have a convicted terrorist suing over waterboarding. Yea its only for $1, but who will end up paying the lawyer fees? Plus if he wins how many other convicted terriorists will follow suit and sue too for even more $$$$….
This American in fighting has got to stop….
Obama and his croonies have and are already destroying our nation financially….So now lets destroy the moral fiber of our country too…
Our country has its problems….but now is not the time to make more problems and to be making wacked out accusations…Now is the time to join together in order that our nation might survive what lays ahead.
We knew that was coming didn’t we? It isn’t about the $1 either. This is using the legal system to force information into the public domain. It won’t be pictures, but information regarding chain of command etc. Anybody who is a paid informant in the war on terror is being sold down the river. By any means necessary means just that. They do not care. They haven’t thought it through, because they don’t care. The ends justify the means. Period.
Umm, it was us ‘whack jobs’ that exposed that and not after being called ‘whack jobs’ for bringing that subject up when you ‘deniers’ didn’t want to believe that your country’s gov’t was capable of doing such things. Just as with the case of 9/11.
Convicted? In a kangaroo court. Think of your statement closely. The person was waterboarded. Terrorism experts have even stated that evidence collected is not sufficient in the case of torture.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/06/ap-covers-false-ksm-confessions.html
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/06/why-we-need-torture.html
Then become part of the solution instead of referring to those who want the answers as ‘whack jobs’.
No argument for me on that one.
Pfft! Too late. That was done a hell of long time ago.
Requesting new and through investigations are not accusations.
Then help in getting the questions answered.
The REAL Holocaust Deniers Are Those Who Accept the Government’s Version of 9/11
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/06/real-holocaust-deniers-are-those-who.html
Good comment at the bottom of the post:
And what if it turned out, that military jets had downed flight 93 over Pennsylvania… what then? What would be the truth then? I am guessing that would be Bush Cheney’s fault as well. If you hate them, fine. There is no need to rationalize that further.
No one brought up that concept but yourself.
That a military jet shot down flight 93, I think.
You’re right. No one needs to rationalize the fact that they are douche bags, murderers and war criminals.
I’m at work so I can’t look up the link for this right now but I am sure that the US funded terrorists to overthrow Haiti’s first elected gov. Does saying that make me crazy? No it makes the friggin idiots in the CIA who think they are all powerful and would dare to oppress a poor helpless nation like Haiti the crazy ones.
Didn’t the CIA fund terrorists to overthrow Haiti’s first democratically elected government? Where does all this moral superiority come from?
I wouldn’t be surprised if the rigged (s)election in Iran was their doing as well. A wider Middle East war is ultimately the goal of this current administration.
The CIA’s Iranian Plan?
http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22839.htm
Pestulant Beastie,
Thanks very much for all the comments above. They are both lively and informative–and devastating in many cases.
thanks Larry..it got a lively conversation going..
Fprt some solid failure analysis of the WTC steel beams, see:
Microstructural Analysis of the Steels from Buildings 7, 1 and 2 from the World Trade Center
http://www.me.wpi.edu/MTE/People/imsm.html
http://www.me.wpi.edu/MTE/People/Images/IMSBiedermanA2.pdf
“A microstructural analysis of these steel samples has been completed. In Building 7, the structural
steel was A36. Figure 2 shows the near surface microstructural changes that occurred in the steel.
The as-fabricated microstructure consisted of a hot worked banded structure of ferrite and pearlite.
In severely “eroded” regions where the thickness had been reduced to less than a 1/16 of and inch
significant decarburation was observed. In addition, some pearlite bands presented regions that had
re-austentized as well as regions where the pearlite had started to spheroidize. These observations
indicate that steel had experienced temperature between 550 and 850°C.
An examination of the “slag” that formed on the surface of the steel found iron oxides and iron
sulfides. It appeared that the “slag” was liquid at high temperature and easily attacked the grain
boundaries. A eutectic microstructure was seen within the “slag” of iron oxides and iron sulfides. If
these compounds were pure Wustite (FeO) and Iron sulfide (FeS), the eutectic temperature is 940°C.
It appears that the severe “erosion” was due to the sulfidation and oxidation (i.e. hot corrosion) of
the steel followed by the liquid “slag” attack of the grain boundaries.
A sample from either Building 1 or 2 presented similar macroscopic observations. In these buildings,
the steel was a High Strength Low Alloy Steel (HSLA). The microstructure revealed somewhat
different phase distributions. This steel contained less carbon and an alloy addition of copper. The
“slag” while comprised of both iron oxides and iron sulfides presented a significantly different
microstructure near the surface as shown in Figure 3.
Evidence of grain boundary attack by sulfidation is clearly visible. A gradient in sulfur concentration
inward from the surface is shown in Figure 4. The internal sulfides appeared to interact with the
penetration of this liquid “slag.”
A thermodynamic analysis of the Fe-S-O system is currently underway to determine the atmosphere
that would form these sulfidation/oxidation products. In addition, these microstructural observations
will be compared with results from steels in various furnace and petrochemical processes”
For some solid failure analysis of the WTC steel beams, see:
Microstructural Analysis of the Steels from Buildings 7, 1 and 2 from the World Trade Center
http://www.me.wpi.edu/MTE/People/imsm.html
http://www.me.wpi.edu/MTE/People/Images/IMSBiedermanA2.pdf
“A microstructural analysis of these steel samples has been completed. In Building 7, the structural
steel was A36. Figure 2 shows the near surface microstructural changes that occurred in the steel.
The as-fabricated microstructure consisted of a hot worked banded structure of ferrite and pearlite.
In severely “eroded” regions where the thickness had been reduced to less than a 1/16 of and inch
significant decarburation was observed. In addition, some pearlite bands presented regions that had
re-austentized as well as regions where the pearlite had started to spheroidize. These observations
indicate that steel had experienced temperature between 550 and 850°C.
An examination of the “slag” that formed on the surface of the steel found iron oxides and iron
sulfides. It appeared that the “slag” was liquid at high temperature and easily attacked the grain
boundaries. A eutectic microstructure was seen within the “slag” of iron oxides and iron sulfides. If
these compounds were pure Wustite (FeO) and Iron sulfide (FeS), the eutectic temperature is 940°C.
It appears that the severe “erosion” was due to the sulfidation and oxidation (i.e. hot corrosion) of
the steel followed by the liquid “slag” attack of the grain boundaries.
A sample from either Building 1 or 2 presented similar macroscopic observations. In these buildings,
the steel was a High Strength Low Alloy Steel (HSLA). The microstructure revealed somewhat
different phase distributions. This steel contained less carbon and an alloy addition of copper. The
“slag” while comprised of both iron oxides and iron sulfides presented a significantly different
microstructure near the surface as shown in Figure 3.
Evidence of grain boundary attack by sulfidation is clearly visible. A gradient in sulfur concentration
inward from the surface is shown in Figure 4. The internal sulfides appeared to interact with the
penetration of this liquid “slag.”
A thermodynamic analysis of the Fe-S-O system is currently underway to determine the atmosphere
that would form these sulfidation/oxidation products. In addition, these microstructural observations
will be compared with results from steels in various furnace and petrochemical processes”
Nano-thermite found in WTC dust (April 14, 2009)
http://www.esoterictube.com/danish-chemist-found-nano-thermite-in-wtc-dust.html
I am curious how ith all the many tons of particulate matter that were created from the towers collapsing they could find what had to been an relatively infinitesimaly small of amout of thermite residue. Particualarly when aluminum and the possible oxides would likely be present in some quantity just from the destruction of buildings, where commercial aircraft made of aluminum had just crashed into the towers.
I dedicate this one to the ‘deniers’.
Psychologists Weigh In On 9/11 (May 27, 2009)
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/psychologists-weigh-in-on-911.html
Ahh, but before you get excited, know that there are far more psychologists than those two who don’t buy the offical lie and those many mental health professionals have concluded that the official version of 9/11 is false, and that those who believe the official version suffer from emotional problems or defense mechanisms.
Are these the same psychologists (professionals)
who have been assisting at Gitmo and at other
various tortue asylums around the globe?
Those “professional” and laudable social scientists are truly credible, using their expertise to further the progress of mankind and enhance America’s reputation as a shining city on the hill.
NOT!
Here are a lot questions we all need answers to; both ‘truthers’ and ‘deniers’ alike.
9/11: All In One Chunk
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/9-11BasicQuestions.html
Pilots Discuss Difficulty of WTC Attacks
http://tinyurl.com/kmdxb8
I am still waiting to hear about any steel skyscraper that ever fell down for any reason other than demolition.
Bueller? Bueller?
I agree Heather. They question you just asked is the basis of what most of us “truthers” are. We think there are a lot of unanswered questions from the 9/11 Commission Report and though some of are bent on a government conspiracy the ultimate “truth” comes out when there is a complete open and thorough investigation of everything that happened on 9/11 and the days following.
If this would ever happen and I doubt if it ever will
maybe then we would know once and for all what really happened but meanwhile we can thrash around and call each other names until hell freezes over.
Since there is so much discussion about “controlled demolition” bringing the towers which by the way was not even on the radar when some of the first ppl started questioning the 911 Commission Report, here is how they came to that conclusion.
It goes to a saying by that great fictional British detective Sherlock Holmes who I believe said something like this..
When all the plausible explanations and conclusions do not make sense then the only one left is the one that seems completely impossible.
These buildings had large comerical aircraft, loaded with jet fuel flown into them at high speed. They did not collapse on their own.
No one really knows all the details about 9/11.
However, it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the official explanation is impotent when it comes to explaining some of the facts. In my mind the one thing that causes me to question the official story is the free fall speed of the collapse and the fact that prior to 9/11 no steel reinforced building had collapsed as a result of fire.
I don’t speculate on it being in an inside job. I just want a new, thoroughly independent investigation.
So, I’m troubled by the official explanation and don’t believe it accounts for all the facts and knowing that “False Flag” staged events have been used by our government in the past to shape policy, I believe we owe it to the soldiers who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as the 16, and 17 year old kids who will end up deployed there in the next couple of years to get to the bottom of the event, since it is what we have used to justify these two military incursions. I think this is reasonable.
I’m just really trying to find a point of comparison with steel skyscrapers and I’m having a hard time. Steel goes through hurricanes and jet impacts just fine.
http://archives.stupidquestion.net/sq52302.html
This movie is specifically about the physics invoved. It was what convinced me.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8172271955308136871
It has the pictures taken by a FEMA photographer of the steel sticking out of other buildings.
Steel has strength and weakness like any other material.
A steel wire as some serious tensile strength, but bend the wire back and forth and you “work harden” it and it will break in you hands after a short number of bends.
Take a steel chisel that wasn’t tempered when made and it will shatter when you hit it with a hammer.
The composition of the steel also plays a a major role in failures.
Steel from the Titanic (state of the art steel at that time)was found to have high levels of sulfur, oxygen and phosphorous and low levels of manganese.
This made it much more brittle at the freezing temps of the North Atlantic waters then modern steel would have been.
That WPI mentioned above that studied some WTC beams details the chemistry and metallurgial elemnts that most likely caused the the beams to fail. “Eutechtic etching”, melting along grain boundaries, that occured at temperature lower then the melting point of pure steel, due to the the formation of euthectic compounds due to sulphur and other compunds found in the steel.
Having a large commerical jet made of aluminum (an oxident) full of jet fuel crash and burn in a building is not anything that has happened in the past.
The WPI study may or maynot disprove that thermite was used but it does indicate that the steel beams could have failed due to the fire and impact of a fuel laden jet crashing into the building alone.
Then explain away WTC # 7. The smoking gun
in this ongoing mystery. No jet fuel, no impact–
just a controlled demolition of a huge building
falling symetrically down into its own footprint.
And to my thinking, the final unanswered question is what happened to all the passengers on four
airplanes? They just seemed to have vanished into thin air, along with their carriers. There
were memorials but no graveside interments.
In the real, material world, solid mass and
human bodies do not disappear.
I agree. We can debate all day about whether the planes and fire should have knocked them down. I don’t believe they should have. Other planes have flown into steel skyscrapers (Florence, Italy and Florida) and skyscrapers have burned much longer at much higher temperatures (Madrid) without the skyscrapers falling. But WTC 7 had neither of those things happen to it. It did have all the SEC files on Enron and that investigation as well as many others disappeared after 9/11.
That movie shows how the fire was not enough - it was mostly black smoke and fires giving off lots of black smoke are not that hot and are going out.
I thought the video was fascinating personally. I watched it years ago and a week after I watched it I found out my dad and my Bible teacher were both “truthers.” I am a big fan of the truth personally. Plus it really pisses me off that we will send someone to jail for life for stealing a couple videos or doughnut holes but if you are a rich politician you write reality and everyone else buys it. Come on people.
The conservation of momentum is about mass hitting mass. The collapse of the north tower is the top 10% progressively hitting the lower stationary portion. So talking about the conservation of momentum without talking about the distribution of steel and concrete in the towers is complete nonsense.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=21925.0
So why can’t the NIST tell us the total amount of concrete in the towers. What is so difficult about providing a table specifying the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level?
Larry Johnson: “You ignore the contemporary video of a firefighter predicting the imminent collapse of Building 7.”
No, I don’t ignore that. There were many people who said that WTC7 was going to collapse before it actually did. The BBC reported it had already collapsed while the building was still standing! When buildings are brought down via a demolition people normally know about it beforehand. This is, therefore, evidence of demolition.
Larry Johnson: “You and your crowd of nuts cannot provide one shred of evidence that there was any effort by anyone to place explosives in the three buildings that collapsed in the month prior to the attack.”
That is because there has been no investigation into the matter. If there is a murder, an investigation is usually to find out who did it. But if an investigation is thwarted and evidence is destroyed it is often difficult to discover the responsible party. You want the 9/11 Truth Movement to provide answers before there has been an investigation.
Larry Johnson: “How were the wires inside the buildings connected to the detonators outside the building and why did no one see those wires?”
There are wireless blast initiation systems available.
HiEx Technologies Ltd “Our TeleBlaster telemetry blast initiation system was designed for blasters by blasters ; a wireless blast initiation system used to safely initiate commercial explosives blasts.
We’ve worked hard to introduce and develop telemetric blast initiation in B.C. since 1999, proving radio remote initiation can be safe and extremely efficient.”
Larry Johnson, “With respect to your questions you do not have to melt steel. The temperatures were high enough to soften the steel. Soft steel loses its load bearing capability.’
What evidence do you have that the steel got that hot? NIST found that only 2% of the steel tested on the perimeter columns got over 250C(482F) and none of the core columns. In fact, NIST states, “Microstructure tests showed no steel reached critical half-strength values 600 C[1,112F).”
Larry Johnson: “the collapse starts in the South Tower, which had been struck by a plane at a lower point in the building. The collapse of the North Tower, not surprisingly, starts at the point of impact of the plane.”
No, the “collapse” did not start at those points. That is where the demolition charges first started.
Larry Johnson: “When the attacks unfolded the Bushies were shocked and alarmed.”
Bush didn’t seem too alarmed sitting in that classroom, Larry.
Larry Johnson: ‘Unlike you I have worked in the Government and know firsthand how dysfunctional and incompetent it can be.”
Yes, the Government can be quite incompetent. That is why it is obvious to anyone paying attention that 9/11 was a false-flag terror operation.
Larry was quoted as stating:
Larry Johnson: “When the attacks unfolded the Bushies were shocked and alarmed.”
Ha, ha, ha. Nice try, Larry. Bush continued to sit in that classroom in Florida for another 20 minutes after being told as to what just happened. The look on his face was as though it was disbelief that it actaully took place - AS PLANNED!
9/11 FEMA videographer at Ground Zero goes public (June 22, 2009)
As official videographer for the U.S. government, Kurt Sonnenfeld was detailed to Ground Zero on September 11, 2001, where he spent one month filming 29 tapes: “What I saw at certain moments and in certain places … is very disturbing!” He never handed them over to the authorities and has been persecuted ever since. Kurt Sonnenfeld lives in exile in Argentina, where he wrote « El Perseguido » (the persecuted). His recently-published book tells the story of his unending nightmare and drives another nail into the coffin of the government’s account of the 9/11 events. Below is an exclusive interview by Voltairenet.
Kurt Sonnenfeld: There were many things, in hindsight, that were disturbing at Ground Zero. It was odd to me that I was dispatched to go to New York even before the second plane hit the South Tower, while the media was still reporting only that a “small plane” had collided with the North Tower — far too small of a catastrophe at that point to involve FEMA . FEMA was mobilized within minutes, whereas it took ten days for it to deploy to New Orleans to respond to Hurricane Katrina, even with abundant advance warning! It was odd to me that all cameras were so fiercely prohibited within the secured perimeter of Ground Zero, that the entire area was declared a crime scene and yet the “evidence” within that crime scene was so rapidly removed and destroyed. And then it was very odd to me when I learned that FEMA and several other federal agencies had already moved into position at their command center at Pier 92 on September 10th, one day before the attacks!
http://www.voltairenet.org/article160636.html
You basically avoided all of the five questions that I asked you Larry. Then you went on to various speculations instead of addressing the scientific facts. Why? Regarding the molten metal question. Have you seen this video? http://tinyurl.com/53pjr2 Google the video ‘NIST John Gross + molten metal’ and then ask yourself who is lying.
The majority of the people are waking up and are questioning the events of 9/11. What we are asking for is a new, independent and thorough 9/11 investigation. Why are you so afraid of that Larry?
Of course we all know that our US governnment and particularly the CIA would never lie to the American people or engage in anything illegal or involve themselves in any sort of cover-up. Right Larry? (sarcasm off)
Read the document entitled 41 U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans Challenge the Official Account of 9/11 – Official Account of 9/11: “Terribly Flawed,” “Laced with Contradictions,” “a Joke,” “a Cover-up”
I’m still waiting for your reply Larry.