Comments on: A Disconnect on Torture

By: Jimbob

Jimbob — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:29:40 +0000

TeakwoodKite: Mr. Michael Scheuer (spelling?)did not “get” UBL, because he and his team were ordered not to fire on the house at which UBL and his lads were holed up. It was, in fact, Mr. Sandy Burglar … uh …. I mean Mr. Sandy Burger(Democrat)who gave that order. I guess you never figured that out even though Burglar … uh .. Burger was caught burgling the National Archives.

Jimbob

By: Jimbob

Jimbob — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 04:22:55 +0000

The simple fact is that what Bush/Cheney did to the GITMO prisoners was not torture, and even if it was, waterboarding was carried out on a grand total of three (3) prisoners. Oh .. well, unless you want to say that putting a harmless caterpillar in the KSM’s prison cell was torture. Oh yeah, I see, it was torture because KSM didn’t know that the critter was harmless. I see. Only liberals can get their panties in a wad about the way the GTMO prisoners were handled. So go ahead … prattle on if it makes you feel better. Meanwhile we who have not lost our minds on account of Bush Derangement Syndrome will continue to support our leaders success in bringing death, destruction, and defeat to America’s enemies.

JimBob

By: Northwest rain

Northwest rain — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:08:54 +0000

I remember the shock and horror when the first “tame” photos showing the victims of US torture. Regardless of political party — there was universal condemnation of what this “rouge” band of National Guard troops where doing to prisoners in Iraq. I also heard Veterans and active duty military personnel remark that torture of prisoners puts the troops IN THE FIELD at great risk. The Iraqis knew this was happening — so this was no big secret where it was happening. In the US we had no idea — until those photos emerged.

Fast forward — the PR propaganda machine has now twisted the WORDS — and now seemly rational people are defending the use of torture on prisoners.

If our first gut reaction to the first photos was disgust, horror and outrage that a rouge National Guard Unit would bring dishonor to America — THEN we should still be outraged that in fact the National Guard Unit had the support of the chain of command all the way to the President and Vice President of the USA.

There is no defense for torture. It does put our troops in the field in danger and the ones doing the torture have crossed a line that no human should cross.

We should NOT become the enemy in order to defeat the enemy.

I grew up in the military — my dad was doing a job that put him at risk for capture and torture. We were taught that America does NOT torture — only the BAD guys torture.

By: James Guglielmino

James Guglielmino — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:32:52 +0000

You are precisely right on. There IS no room for discussion here about whether “torture works,” or how *much* torture is OK for Americans to perpetrate on other human beings. Those who advocate for torture are cowardly, demented individuals. They are sick. They are anti-American and against all that the words of our Constitution…”We, the people….in order to form a more perfect union….”stand for. Each and every one of them should be indicted, prosecuted and if convicted, punished to the full extent of the law. Good job, Spanish, who are proceeding forward with the prosecution of the American lawyers involved in this incredible evil.

By: Retired

Retired — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:26:39 +0000

There is no question that torture is an unmitigated wrong morally. Unfortunately, Dr. Giraldi’s proof that torture is an unmitigated wrong practically is left unproven by the above treatise, which fails to definitively cite primary sources that have actually witnessed the success or failure of torture firsthand. Instead, Dr. Giraldi chooses to make his case by citing torture advocate Mike Scheuer and offering the tortured logic (hey, good pun!) that if Scheuer is for it, it must be wrong from a practical perspective. There are better arguments to be made, and I wish that someone would make them and leave Scheuer to his apparent destiny as a talking head who is nearing obsolesence.
Perhaps the IG report will do this. As of this moment, however, there is at least one primary source on contemporary counterterrorist torture operations that says, on the record, that “torture worked” in the case of captured Al Qaedans.
That it is wrong morally should be enough. However, there are primary sources involved in relatively recent interrogation efforts within the CIA that can attest to whether or not it “works.” It would certainly be interesting to hear from them.
In contrast to the current CWOT, during Central American operations in the mid to late 1980s, CIA spent a lot of time retraining and reorienting indigenous military intelligence officers in non-torture interrogation methods that were very successful in “turning” captured opponents. The results were very powerful because the turned opponents became willing collaborators as part of our team rather than just giving us information to avoid pain.
Is this approach difficult? Yes, it requires interrogators to be skillful, knowledgeable, and very quick-witted. But the results are worth it. Former proponents of torture admitted that not only did it work better, but also that the torture methods that they had previously used were more about their own ego and desire to extract retribution from the bad guys than it was about information.
Perhaps some day all of this will come out and we will realize that we need to maintain a trained, well-qualified cadre of professionals who are dedicated to the employent of these techniques.
They don’t make for a very compelling episode of 24, and those who are most successsful in employing them rarely look like Kiefer Sutherland. But they will help to win a war. Of that, we have proof.

By: Diana L. C.

Diana L. C. — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:59:45 +0000

I still have a copy of Imperial Hubris. I tried to read it and ended up skimming through the last half of it I consider myself a sophisticated reader, but that was a book that really confused me. I just didn’t find a compelling central argument.

I do remember getting the creeping sensation in the first part of the book that Scheuer was in some way jealous of the religious fanaticism of the terrorists, that he almost admired them for the strength of their religious devotion. It seemed strange to me at the time when I got the book a few years ago.

I wonder if I have the stomach or the will to reread it now that I know its background.

Dr. Giraldi and Larry, thanks for the post and the continued offense against the use of torture, no matter what euphemism people want to apply to the practice.

By: FrenchNail

FrenchNail — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:44:42 +0000

Please refrain to bend history to make your point. The Gestapo went on torturing French resistance members until the very last days of the war. And unfortunately were so skilled at it that they did obtain true and valuable information through it.

Why do you insist on teinting the argument by rewriting history?

Isn’t it enough to argue that torture is morally wrong? And that it destroys not only the torturee, but also the torturer?

By: TeakWoodKite

TeakWoodKite — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 03:10:59 +0000

Lord knows what makes Mikey tick, but him and his ilk are a distortion of space.

Bottomline? Until Mr.Scheuer can explain to me WHY, he being on point in the hunt for UBL, did not GET UBL I will not give him no quarter.

Was it that the “methods” he was using were based on information gained from torture and the result was bad information and the outcome predictable as seen by so many other trained pro’s?

LJ, is there such sycosis as “24 on the brain”, like some high constant fever?

By: J

Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:49:28 +0000

Larry,

Scheuer’s problem is that he has watched too many episodes of 24, and Scheuer thinks that ‘he’ IS Jack Bauer.

By: texaslatina

texaslatina — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:43:24 +0000

we are a civilized society, condoning torure makes us no better than the barbarians we are combating in third world countries for doing the exact same thing!

By: Kim

Kim — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:33:30 +0000

Torture is abhorrent to me. There is absolutely no justification for it. There are other ways to gather information from someone that doesn’t involve inflicting pain or discomfort on them or humiliating them. America is supposed to be about promoting human rights around the world, but we have lost credibility since the world knows we have engaged in torture.

By: Animal Control

Animal Control — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:23:19 +0000

Torture is an unmitigated wrong, both morally and practically, and it is time that the American media and public rally against the merchants of fear who have been promoting it.

Great read–thanks for posting.