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Those Are Some Odds…

No doubt, you know there are plans afoot by Obama and Congress to extend health care benefits to all. It raises that sticky question of just how these costs will be covered. And when I say costs, I mean at least one TRILLION dollars, though I have seen estimates that are higher.

One proposal is to mimic the Massachusetts’ plan. Except there are some problems with that:

Huh. Well, that sounds just perfect – go ahead and implement a program that has quickly gone into the red. Perfect management of our tax-paying dollars, right? Oh, yeah.

So, just how would we even pay for this? Oh, you are gonna love this plan by the US Senate:
Senate Health Plan Could Tax 1 in 8 Workers
. One in EIGHT. 12.5% of Americans will be helping to foot the bill for everyone else. Holy smokes. Here’s the nitty gritty:

About one in eight U.S. workers who receive health benefits from an employer — more than nine million workers — could pay higher income taxes on benefits as part of a Senate proposal that aims to raise billions of dollars to finance health-care reform, according an independent analysis of the proposal.

A five-page presentation, obtained by FOX Business, was prepared by the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Sen. Max Baucus (D-Mont.), who is leading efforts by Senate Democrats to formulate funding alternatives for a reform plan. In the document, Baucus proposes “options to limit allowable tax free health benefits.”

Since World War II, when companies facing work-force shortages began offering comprehensive health-care coverage to attract and retain workers, such benefits have been tax-free to employees. Today, more than 150 million workers and their dependents receive health insurance from their current — or, if retired, former — employer.

Preliminary estimates from the Congressional Budget Office put the cost of health-care reform at $1 trillion or more over 10 years.

Read the whole presentation here.

According to the document, Sen. Baucus is looking at four ways to tax benefits starting in 2013, when many reform proposals would take full effect:

* Tax benefits of single workers who earn more than $100,000 a year and couples that earn more than $200,000. The presentation cites a previous estimate from the Congressional Joint Committee on Taxation [JCT] that the proposal would raise $161.9 billion over 10 years if the changes were effective on January 1, 2010.
* Tax benefits that exceed a value of $6,182 for a single worker and a value of $15,700 for a worker who also receives coverage for his family. The document cites a previous JCT estimate that the proposal would raise $418 billion over a decade if the changes were effective January 1, 2010.
* Tax those “base” benefits plus 10%, or a value of $6,800 for an individual worker and a value of $17,240 for families. The higher cap would eliminate taxes for some workers. The document says Baucus has requested an estimate, presumably from the JCT, of how much this proposal would generate in new tax revenue with the change effective January 1, 2013.
* Tax base benefits plus 20%, or a value of $7,420 for an individual and a value of $18,840 for families, which would shelter even more workers from tax liability. Baucus also has requested, presumably from the JTC, an estimate for this proposal also effective January 1, 2013.

Now, I know numbers like these can make your head spin. But what they are considering is pretty important for, well, one out of EIGHT of us, who will be helping to provide health care. Ahem. It is actually important to all of us, I know. Especially since health care is an important part of many people’s benefits package:

Most of the value of amounts cited in the presentation is the cost of insurance premiums that companies pay for their employees’ health benefits. But the presentation says the total value calculated for taxation would also include supplemental health plans for vision and dental care, as well as contributions employees make to their flexible spending accounts and health savings accounts, which workers contribute to with pre-tax dollars. Baucus would also adjust benchmarks annually to inflation.

A 2008 survey of employer health benefits suggests more than nine million workers could face new tax liabilities under the Baucus proposals, according one of the survey’s authors. The survey was conducted by the National Opinion Research Center, for the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research and Education Trust.

The survey, of 1,900 small and large companies, can be found here.

Among other things, the survey identified insurance-premium levels employers paid for their workers’ coverage last year. To analyze variations around national averages, the survey reported higher premiums due to factors such as geography and benefit differences.

Based on the survey, Jon Gabel, NORC senior fellow for health policy and evaluation in Washington, D.C., said that if the Baucus proposal to tax single workers receiving more than $6,182 in benefits were in effect today, about 15% of single workers, or 4.7 million, could face new tax payments — potentially hundreds of dollars or more per person per year, depending on tax brackets and the size of benefit packages.

Gabel estimated that about 17% of workers with family coverage, or 4.5 million workers, could face new taxes if the proposal to tax employees with families who receive more than $15,700 in health benefits were in effect today. Under the survey methodology, with family coverage defined as a policy insuring four people, the tax could affect benefits for about 18 million people, Gabel estimated.

The survey and the Baucus proposals did not address another 12 million workers who receive coverage for themselves and one dependent, usually a spouse. Presumably any tax proposal would apply to a subset of them as well.

With health care inflation, even more workers could face tax payments by 2013 as premium payments rose. But by adopting higher benchmarks, such as Baucus’ “base plus 10%” and “base plus 20%,” policymakers would narrow the number of workers required to pay taxes, if Congress adopts such proposals. Congress could also limit their impact by combining a benefits level cap with an income test — such as taxing only single workers who receive $6,182 in annual health care benefits and who earn more than $100,000 a year.

Gabel said most workers will have to ask their employer for benefit information to determine the value of their individual health care packages.

For more information on taxation of health benefits, you can read Center for Budget Policy and Priorities report here.

In these difficult economic times, I’m sure this is just what these people want to hear. But this seems to be one area in which there is agreement across the aisle:

The idea of taxing health-care benefits has bipartisan roots. Some conservative economists and Republican policymakers believe health-care costs are soaring faster then general inflation in part because such benefits are excluded from taxable income, encouraging excessive health care spending by consumers. Some Democrats agree.

During the presidential campaign last year, then-candidate Barack Obama criticized his Republican opponent, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), for proposing to tax all health-care benefits. Under his health-care reform plan, McCain would have used the new revenues to the government to fund health-care tax credits.

But in a meeting with Baucus and other senators earlier this month, President Obama signaled he would not rule out taxing benefits to help finance a reform plan.

“If I’m not mistaken, I can think of at least one Republican off the top of my head that talked about changing the tax benefits for the exclusion,” White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said at his daily press briefing on Friday. “I think if I sat at Google for about five minutes I could probably get you several dozen. I think one of the major reform bills that’s up there right now that’s been written by Sen. [Richard] Burr (R-N.C.) includes, if not a complete ending of the exclusion, some cap of it.”

The Obama Administration has already proposed more than $300 billion in tax increases to pay for reform, mainly by limiting deductions for wealthier families, and proposed more than $600 billion in cuts in Medicare and Medicaid spending.

But NORC’s Gabel said of specifically taxing benefits, “I think it’s very difficult to sell. As we know, Americans are almost schizophrenic in their views on taxing and spending. You name it, they think we should do more on it — spend more on education, more on defense, more on health care. On the other hand, they think taxes are too high and they don’t see a contradiction between the two.”

Well, at least this proposal would apply to everyone, right? Wrong:

The tax proposals also likely face strong opposition from some of the President’s and the Democratic party’s key supporters — unions that enjoy more generous health-care benefits won through hard-fought contact negotiations over decades. Apparently anticipating some objections about the possibility of affecting contracts already in place, Baucus has proposed protecting some union benefits by “grandfathering” collective-bargaining agreements existing on January 1, 2013, in his “base plus 10%” and “base plus 20%” options, according to his presentation.

Did you catch that? Unions may be exempt from having to pony up like everyone else will have to do. WOW – they really DID buy themselves a president, didn’t they??? I wonder how hard it would be to organize a United Office Workers Union (h/t to my partner for that union idea)?? How long are most Americans just going to accept that Union workers have far better benefits and pensions than the rest of us because we are subsidizing them? (Again, I’m not anti-union, but these things kind of stick in my craw…)

But there does seem to be agreement (more or less) that something needs to change:

On Sunday, a New York Times poll on health-care reform suggested taxing health benefits may not be as politically treacherous as assumed: the Times reported that 57% of voters said they would be willing to pay higher taxes “so that all Americans have health insurance that they can’t lose no matter what.” Just over a third — 37% — said they would not be willing to pay such taxes, and 6% had no opinion.

In a press briefing on June 9, Baucus said he was considering either a 50-50 or 60-40 split between taxes and savings to pay for a reform plan. Baucus specifically mentioned a “grandfathering” idea that he said would help mitigate taxes to some people who receive health-insurance benefits and said he favored an income test to narrow the impact as well.

In the House, Democratic leaders announced their own draft reform plan on Friday. But they did not present any options for financing it.

Gabel said taxes on benefits could not only raise some revenue for a new government plan but could also help to reduce health care spending, and thus inflation, as some economists believe.

“People will move from rich benefits where they don’t face deductibles to higher deductibles so their premiums are lower, and this will reduce the use of services,” Gabel said. “Also, they may move back into tightly managed HMOs like Kaiser, which have shown they can deliver care at lower cost.”

Well, that would be something at least. I think it would be great if everyone had health care – as long as we can PAY for it without going further into massive debt as a country. Or without putting the lion’s share of burden on some employees while allowing others off scott free. Surely a more just proposal can be worked out, yes? Let’s hope so, otherwise, those aren’t great odds for the 12.5% of employees who will pay more…

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Comment by Hank | 2009-06-24 09:22:52

Obama the reader, every time he reads we end up more in the RED.

Comment by foxyladi14 | 2009-06-24 16:23:46

that would make him a redder..lol

 
 

Comment by tek | 2009-06-24 09:27:28

No mystery how he’ll pay for the program. Anyone who has anything will pay through the nose in taxes. That’s the American reward for success. I am hearing Obamabots actually using the phrase Re-distribution of wealth–all people who are about 18 or 20 and are supported by their successful parents.

Comment by cleffnote | 2009-06-25 12:12:20

I know how we could pay for it, the same way Hillary would have paid for the plan. Re-institute the Bush tax cuts to what it was when President Clinton was in office. Those tax cuts and the phony Bush war on terror are what put us in our current financial crisis.

How do you think Hillary would have paid for this? Duh.

 
 

Comment by lark | 2009-06-24 09:27:35

“I think it would be great if everyone had health care – as long as we can PAY for it without going further into massive debt as a country.”

So much confusion when all we have to do is allow WalMart to set up a new business venture: WalMart Neighborhood Health Care facilities; and give them freedom to operate as they see fit. Government could help by buying back the leases on the buildings (financing construction) and renting them back to WalMart for a nominal fee.

Comment by justme_kc | 2009-06-24 12:32:46

hmmmmm Walmart is pure evil and have put many U.S. companies out of business. I don’t know if I could get on board with any plan that involves that company.

I don’t mind being taxed on my healthcare benefits to allow people with no insurance to be able to have it.

 
 

Comment by tek | 2009-06-24 09:30:17

I am sort of chortling as I watch this drama unfold because the far left ambushed Hillary Clinton on healthcare–the actual program that we needed–and thought they would get their little puppet in the WH to do a better job but now it’s turning out his program is even worse and in even more trouble.

Comment by lark | 2009-06-24 09:38:10

You shouldn’t chortle, really. But it is extremely ironic. As a society we have a useless myth that define us. The second chance myth. I even heard yesterday of those inmates in California that are given opportunities to clear their records. In truth, most of the time we have only one opportunity to make great choices and once its gone no other choices come to pair it.

I am very sorry to see Hillary miss this opportunity to support the women liberation revolution in Iran. What a waste.

The truth is the AMA and many other forces conspired to suppress Hillary’s efforts to put a sensible system in place. Nothing will work until the whole economy crashes; that is, until the middle class is gone for good.

 
 

Comment by Linda Anselmi | 2009-06-24 09:39:03

Great post Amy!

As to how he’s going to pay for health “coverage” – not universal health care, which is what we need? I’d keep an eye on medicare and social security. My bet is there is a big old bulls-eye on both of them.

Comment by Ellen D | 2009-06-24 11:25:06

Great – target Medicare – a government health care that works! Look – there’s a lot of scare stuff out there. A couple of observations:

1- Everyone is supposed to be concerned that the health care that they get from their employer will be removed. They don’t seem concerned that if they get laid off they only have the government-subsidized COBRA for 18 months. If they had a public option they could go anywhere at any time.

2- Every other western country has solved this and made the transition from for-profit healthcare companies (yes! they existed in the other countries too!) to government-run programs. If they could do it, so can the U.S.

Are we saying we’re too dumb to figure out how to do what everyone else has done? Or just too dumb in believing the greedy healthcare company propaganda?

Comment by trixta | 2009-06-24 11:52:22

Not too dumb just too corrupt!

 
 
 

Comment by jwrjr | 2009-06-24 10:11:00

Anyone want to take bets on whether or not Congresscriminals get exempted from paying taxes on their

Comment by jwrjr | 2009-06-24 10:12:33

to continue – on their health care benefits?

Comment by Nobama4me | 2009-06-24 12:47:06

Don’t worry jwrjr…I have read somewhere that the plans exempts Union workers AND CONGRESS from having their benefits taxed. It must be just a way of encouraging everyone to join an Union. Or run for Office.

Comment by tango | 2009-06-24 18:41:08

And the proposal also exempts FEDERAL WORKERS.

The question everyone needs to ask, if the proposed Democratic Health Care plan is so wonderful, fair and cost efficient, how come the Congress, Senate and other Federal Employees won’t be required to participate if the exemptions stand? Yep, that tells me all I need to know if they’re not willing to require themselves to be bound by the same coverage and plans.

 
 
 
 

Comment by HC123 | 2009-06-24 10:17:45

They will sign everyone up for Govcare, then limit supply to control costs. There isn’t another way to contain costs aside from limiting supply – unless you are on the kool-aid and believe in magical government powers like “increased efficiency through federal monopoly”.

The nice left hook to go with the right jab of rationing is that once healthcare is effectively “free” for the 40%+ of Americans that dont pay any taxes they will indeed increase their consumption of it. Its free for them so why not, it makes good sense. And the 60% that do pay will enjoy the fruits of worse and less care for more money.

The real way to control government spending on healthcare is to have the government get out of the healthcare business. If they created a reasonable regulatory framework in which insurers work, they might even see “increased efficiency through market competition” – something that exists – as opposed to the pie in the sky “increased efficiency through government monopoly”.

Comment by Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy | 2009-06-24 10:23:39

Hank, thanks for the laugh!

You make a good point, HC123. Since they are talking abt making employers pay taxes on health benefits as a way to pay for this, you know exactly what the employers will say: get your own damn ins. from the gov’t. That is the plan, right?

And grayslady, you are right…

 
 

Comment by grayslady | 2009-06-24 10:17:46

On Sunday, a New York Times poll on health-care reform suggested taxing health benefits may not be as politically treacherous as assumed: the Times reported that 57% of voters said they would be willing to pay higher taxes “so that all Americans have health insurance that they can’t lose no matter what.”

The key words are “that they can’t lose no matter what.” Employer-paid insurance doesn’t qualify under that definition. What the Times writers are failing to clarify is that people are saying they want UHC and are willing to pay higher taxes to get it. UHC is the only type of coverage that you can’t lose “no matter what.” This is definitely not the same thing as agreeing to taxation on an employer benefit.

Comment by HARP | 2009-06-24 10:47:53

Another Huge Pro-Democrat Disparity in a NYT/CBS Poll

In the latest NYT poll, a small gap of two points in how poll respondents identified themselves (34%-32% Democrats over Republicans) became a yawning 14-point gap (38%-24%) after the poll was “weighted.”

http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2009/20090618140310.aspx

 
 

Comment by Jackarooty | 2009-06-24 11:22:45

I am a lifelong resident of MA. On paper the health care program looks great but every year the premium rates have gone up, up, up. There are a lot of residents who opt out and pay the tax penalty because it is much more affordable than paying the premium.

I blame the greedy greedy insurance companies.

Comment by Ellen D | 2009-06-24 13:30:37

We are an employer in Massachusetts. The health company subsidy plan is not working.

Look, if Republicans don’t want to be part of a Government option they don’t have to join. They don’t have to get VA benefits or Medicare either if it offends their “principles”.

 
 

Comment by Surfered | 2009-06-24 11:34:08

The first estimate of health care reform was $1 trillion over 10 years. After only 6 years, the Iraq War has cost $1 trillion and it appears we are going to be there for a long time to come. Personally, I would have chosen health care. But that’s just me.

Comment by Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy | 2009-06-24 13:53:45

I would have preferred universal health care over invading Iraq, too – no doubt abt it.

The issue is, though, is the continued expectation that one group is going to continue to supplement others, especially when groups like the unions are receiving preferential treatment in the payment department.

And trying to figure out how to pay for all of this given how much we have SQUANDERED just in the past 6 months bailing out companies that were “too big to fail,” but did anyway, after we threw tons of money at them. That’s the problem.

 
 

Comment by Patience | 2009-06-24 12:11:57

This is slightly off-topic but one thing that has realy bothered me about the health care debate is that it’s implied that people who don’t have health insurance don’t receive medical treatment, which is absolutely false.

 

Comment by DCMediagirl | 2009-06-24 13:04:56

OK, so I guess you don’t like the proposals. I’m curious to know how you would go about fixing this health insurance problem. Someone obviously has to pay for it. I don’t begrudge my taxes being used for Medicare. My mother and my aunt benefit from it, as did my father. Better that my tax dollars are spent taking care of our own rather than bankrolling Halliburton.

Comment by cat | 2009-06-24 14:37:16

SINGLE.
PAYER.

Enough with the insurance companies holding Americans hostage.

 

Comment by Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy | 2009-06-24 14:43:21

What I don’t like is the unions being exempted from pulling their weight after already getting their health care and pensions subsidized by our taxes.

What I don’t like is choosing a model that has already proven to be flawed. That’s a set-up for disaster, and is short-sighted from the get-go.

What I don’t like is the gov’t essentially choosing my health care for me, which it will be doing if it starts taxing employers on these benefits (and my partner is already taxed on the money she pays for my benefits), as discussed above.

I have no problems with Medicare- my mom benefits from it, too. But this Administration has already made it harder for Medicare recipients, as well as providers, and we’re supposed to believe they’ll do better for the rest of us? I don’t see how that is possible, especially if they follow the model mentioned above.

You know, they coulda asked Hillary abt her plan – hers was widely considered to be the best one of anyone’s, with the lowest cost. So, it begs the question, why didn’t they?

 
 

Comment by Surfered | 2009-06-24 14:28:27

What’s the difference between paying a “tax” or paying a health insurance premium?

Self-employeds must provide their own insurance and their groups are so small that they pay more than larger employers. Are they “supplementing” larger employers?

We don’t need “health care” reform as much as we need “health insurance” reform. Last year, the eight largest health insurance companies spent $30 billion for “selling, general and administrative expenses.” Not one dollar of that went to health care. It went to pay for that cute duck we see on TV. Their overhead is 20-30%. Medicare’s overhead is 1-2%.

 

Comment by Ellen D | 2009-06-24 14:31:17

Okay – read Ani’s diary on Iranian women and think about this: We are our Sister’s keeper.

Women bear a disproportionate responsibility for the health of their family. Why are we letting men get away with telling us what type of healthcare we are going to be allowed to have?

If Iranian women can show guts, why can’t we? Why aren’t we out there marching for universal coverage for ourselves and our families?

Comment by Betty | 2009-06-24 14:50:56

I am with you! I don’t care how much it cost, we have spent trillions so Bush and Cheney could have their pet “war – money laundering scheme”.

They are trying cheat us out of single payer health care AGAIN with ugly visions of bureaucratic run government health care. The unspoken is message is that we will be at the mercy of government run health care, unable to have any say in it – and that is a lie.

So I think we aught to scare them right back by hitting the streets just as you say and let them know we want it, we want it now, and we want it to serve OUR BEST INTEREST – or else.

Comment by Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy | 2009-06-24 15:27:41

Betty, you, Surfered, and Ellen D raise great points. Like I said, Hillary’s plan was recognized as DOABLE, and affordable. So why can’t we have THAT plan?

What’s their endgame with trying to scare the bejesus out of us abt what will happen to our health care if they take it over? Is it to stay in the pockets of the insurance, pharmaceutical, and medical industries?

 
 
 

Comment by Surfered | 2009-06-24 15:45:15

Yes. The interests are extremely entrenched and their lobby is very strong. Senator Baucus raised something like 23% of his total campaign contributtions from the health care industry. That is why the President said if he were starting from scratch, he would do it differently.

I’m sorry, I am unfamiliar with the specifics of Hillary’s plan.

 

Comment by wonderwoman | 2009-06-24 16:53:57

A couple of points on your regurgitation of the right-wing CATO institute and FOX comments. Why not also include some comments from the other side in your post? Why not have a real debate? An intelligent balance discussion. Obviously you are pushing your agenda, which sounds like lets do nothing or you seem to imply that the government should stay out of healthcare. Why don’t you just say this in your post instead of relying on all these one-sided right-wing comments?

1) A very clear majority of Americans support a public option or the governments involvement in healthcare (check recent poll numbers here http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2009/06/21/health/policy/21poll_graphic_ready.html). The Republicans will put another nail in their coffin if they fight the public on this one.

2) A majority of Americans are even willing to pay more taxes for healthcare (check same poll numbers). Other countries with public healthcare do not really pay all that more taxes, particularly when you factor in total taxation (local, state, federal, consumption).

3) The trillion $ number mentioned by CBO and inflated by all these right-wing nuts does not factor in the impact of a government option using its market power to drive costs down. The trillion ??? analysis is not complete and does not take into consideration all factors. From the CBO on the costs in their analysis:

“They do not reflect the likely interactions that will occur with other elements of comprehensive health reform that may be included — such as an expansion of Medicaid or the creation of a public insurance plan, which is the most controversial issue in the health reform debate.”

4) The supposive $1 trillion number over 10 years. Who cares? Can likely be manageable, particularly if a new systems drives down overall costs and reduces overall spending per GDP. CBO actually said $1 trillion, but dead-enders like McCain pump it up to $3 trillion. http://www.cbo.gov/publications/collections/health.cfm

5) Medicare costs, a government run program, are lower. So already a tract record of a govt run program being done cheaper.

6) How does the cost (trillion $) you outline compare to what we got now? The U.S. spent 16% of GDP on healthcare in 2007, higher than any other developed nation, and the CBO says that could rise to 25% of GDP by 2025 if nothing is done. The healthcare costs of today’s system leave this country uncompetitive. http://www.cfr.org/publication/13325/ The status quo is not an option.

and look at this: http://dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

The WHO ranks the U.S. 37 in terms of overall healthcare performance. We spend more than anyone for 37. Great.

7) Why is it that all these other countries on the planet can provide better healthcare for a lot cheaper, by a very wide margin, through a public run plan?

You are just speculating on some proposals, but you have no details of an actual plan, so your comments are not all that relevant till you have something to comment on or more likely critize. By the way Amy you always seem to fall hook, line and sinker for any criticism the conservatives have. I guess that fits your trash Obama at any cost modus operandi.

What the democrats are proposing of having a public option to spur competition actually makes some sense, given that single-payer would be difficult to mandate at this point, given the lobbying, and that doing nothing is not an option.

At least the Democrats and Obama are trying to tackle healthcare. If your buddy John McCain got in, we would have nothing. Just like the Republicans sat on this for the last 8 years. McCain would have done zero and the failing healthcare system would continue.

Comment by justme_kc | 2009-06-24 19:18:10

standing ovation!! Perhaps of just one, but standing here in my living room applauding that post!

 

Comment by I'm a Linda too | 2009-06-24 20:59:49

So you mean, they can make any policy they want if they pass a health care bill?

Obviously, I don’t think so. We don’t need another disaster, thank you very much.

With Obama worrying about paying back all of his big donors and special interests and so many add on’s, deletions or limits, we can end up with a huge disaster.

And, you may have not noticed, but if they are talking about rising health care costs and wanting to give an option to buy in the a public option, why do you think folks will be rallying paying more for their health care in the end?

right.

 
 

Comment by I'm a Linda too | 2009-06-24 19:40:28

Doesn’t Obama and his administration just crack you up? When you queston their policy shift, they actually bring up their opposing candidate that proposed a similar idea, as to mean support for it, you know, the candidate that lost. hmmmm

The lightbulb doesn’t go on much in the Obama brain, unless of course teleprompter of the US has been turned on.

 

Comment by justme_kc | 2009-06-24 20:12:47

By using that logic, a new President (or any politican for that matter) should automatically be opposed to implementing ANY idea the losing candidate proposed.

 

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