Exposed: The WPost’s One-Sided Account of Torture and Abuse
By Mel Goodman on August 30, 2009 at 10:01 AM in CIA, Mel Goodman, Washington Post
Editor: This op-ed was first published Aug. 29th at The Public Record, and is reprinted with the express permission of Mel Goodman.
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, was photographed shortly after his capture during a raid in Pakistan on March 1, 2003.
The lead story in today’s Washington Post, headlined “How a Detainee Became An Asset,” provides a one-sided and distorted account of the torture and abuse of Khalid Sheikh Muhammad (KSM) and demonstrates the need for a blue ribbon bipartisan commission to create a comprehensive and authoritative narrative of the misgovernment of the Bush administration over the past eight years.
The prosecution of low-level CIA officials and government contractors for resorting to torture and abuse beyond the sordid guidelines of the Justice Department will allow the major players of the Bush administration as well as the lawyers of the Justice Department to escape retribution and judgment. Since President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney would never be held accountable, the entire nation would be better served by a full understanding of the war crimes that they authorized in our name.
Today’s article argues that the techniques of torture and abuse turned KSM into the CIA’s “preeminent source” on al-Qaeda. Citing an intelligence assessment by the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center, which was presumably prepared for Vice President Cheney, the Post article argues that waterboarding was the key to breaking KSM’s spirit and eliciting valuable intelligence on the “inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group’s plans, ideology, and operatives.”
This view contradicts the findings of the authoritative 2004 report on detainees and interrogations of the Office of the Inspector General (OIG) as well as the personal views of the Inspector General (IG) himself.
As the Post acknowledges, John Helgerson, the former IG who commissioned the 2004 study, said that the work of the OIG did not permit “definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods.” Helgerson acknowledged that waterboarding and sleep deprivation “elicited a lot of information,” but the OIG didn’t “do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out.”
As a result, Helgerson recommended (but the Post article chose to omit) the creation of an independent panel of experts to “systematically evaluate the quality of the intelligence gained as related to the specific techniques used, or not used, in particular cases. This would clarify the value of the information and the utility of various approaches.” This recommendation was one of ten recommendations in the 2004 IG report; unfortunately, the Justice Deparment (presumably due to the importuning of the CIA) chose to redact all ten IG recommendations from the declassified report.
There is ample testimony to challenge the view that torture and abuse worked. There were FBI agents at the site where KSM was held who testified that torture and abuse didn’t lead to eliciting valuable intelligence. And a CIA operative has noted that KSM was willing to talk before being tortured, noting that “tea and crumpets” were all that was needed. The former head of U.S. Army intelligence, Gen. John Kimmons, remarked in 2006 that “No good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that.
I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tells us that.” And more recently, several veteran FBI and military interrogators called for an investigation of so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques (EIT),” because of their concerns about the legality, morality, and effectiveness of EITs.
It is important to remember that the 2004 IG report emphatically stated that the information elicited by torture and abuse “did not uncover any evidence that [any] plots were imminent.” Other CIA memoranda stated that information gained from detainees led to “arrests [that] disrupted attack plans in progress,” but did not attribute this information to the use of torture and abuse.
The IG study could not even determine if the 83 waterboardings given to Abu Zubaydah were the reason for his increased willingness to talk. The study noted, moreover, that torture was contrary to the Eighth Amendment against “cruel and unusual punishments;” the 1984 UN Torture Convention, which the United States took the lead in drafting and ratifying; and domestic law.
Finally, it is more important to remember that torture and abuse are evil. Illegal, immoral, counter-productive, but most importantly evil. George Bush told a press conference in 2005 that “this country does not believe in torture,” but the fact is we conducted torture on those who were guilty and those who were innocent.
And Dick Cheney, who has fanatically been waging his own personal jihad in defense of torture and abuse, told Fox News in an interview that will air tomorrow that CIA interrogators were justified in exceeding even the broad authorizations provided by the Justice Department, suggesting that the ends justify the means. Perhaps the Washington Post could give front-page coverage to the 18-page memorandum that the CIA gave to the DoJ’s Office of Legal Counsel in 2004, which provides extraordinary details of the interrogations in plain, but sordid and sadistic, language.
Two years ago, then CIA director Michael Hayden released a collection of long-secret documents compiled in 1974 that detailed domestic spying, assassination plots, and other CIA misdeeds in the 1960s and early 1970s. In releasing the documents, known as the “family jewels,” Hayden told a group of historians who had been pressing for greater disclosure from the Agency, that the documents provided a “glimpse of a very different time and a very different agency.” He also stated that, when the government withholds information, myth and misinformation “fill the vacuum like a gas.”
In order to prevent the Washington Post and others from adding to the myths and misinformation of torture and abuse, it is time to appoint a blue ribbon commission to study all aspects of the CIA’s detentions and interrogations policies.
Melvin A. Goodman, a senior fellow at the Center for International Policy and adjunct professor of government at Johns Hopkins University, is The Public Record’s National Security and Intelligence columnist. He spent 42 years with the CIA, the National War College, and the U.S. Army. His latest book is Failure of Intelligence: The Decline and Fall of the CIA.
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Whether there are resukts or not, torture is wrong. Civilized people DO NOT torture.
Whether there are results or not, torture is wrong. Civilized people DO NOT torture.
Your right Civilized people DO NOT torture. They just send it out to other countries to do it so we can continue to act high and mighty and above it all. I’m sorry if this sounds harsh but….the truth. of the mater is Obama isn’t torturing he’s sending it out.
I just heard yesterday that he has approved continuing rendition. Yup, change we can believe in.
Civilized people get tortured by the uncivilized. When will the world cry out against the torture methods used by the likes of Muslim extremists?
When civilized countries clean up their own houses and can speak with moral authority, which is what we should have been doing all along.
Though not completely relevant to the CIA aspect of this, read this article. Take the time to read some of the noble quotes that we all believed. That we expected to be truthful rather then rhetoric.
Read the entire article. Read about he depraved sadistic in-human abuse and torture that occurred and tell me you would want your son or daughter fighting for this. That morals and values you taught them are in keeping with what we have done. What sort of culture, brain-trust and mis-guided authority forged in hell took the United States of America down to this level?
“Sources have revealed new details from the Army’s criminal investigation into reports of abuse of Iraqi detainees, including the location of the suspected crimes and evidence that is being sought. U.S. soldiers reportedly posed for photographs with partially unclothed Iraqi prisoners, a Pentagon official told CNN on Tuesday.”—Barbara Starr, CNN, Jan. 21, 2004
“Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell, and Iraqi men and women are no longer carried to torture chambers and rape rooms …”—Bush, remarks on “Winston Churchill and the War on Terror,” Feb. 4, 2004
“Seventeen U.S. soldiers have been suspended of duties pending the outcome of the investigation into alleged allegations of abuse of Iraqi prisoners, a U.S. officer said Monday.”—Associated Press, Feb. 23, 2004
“[B]etween October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force. … The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. … I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:
a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;
f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture; …
j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture;
k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee …
These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. …
In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):
a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
e. Threatening male detainees with rape; …
g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.”
—Executive summary of Taguba report, finalized Feb. 29, 2004, briefed to superiors on March 3, 2004, and submitted in final form on March 9, 2004
“Every woman in Iraq is better off because the rape rooms and torture chambers of Saddam Hussein are forever closed.”—Bush, remarks on “Efforts to Globally Promote Women’s Human Rights,” March 12, 2004
“There’s still remnants of that regime that would like to take it back. … They could torture people and have rape rooms, and the world would turn their head from that and let it happen. But they can’t do that anymore.”—Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, BBC interview, March 16, 2004
“There are no more rape rooms and torture chambers in Iraq.”—National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, CBS Early Show, March 19, 2004
“As you know, on 14 January 2004, a criminal investigation was initiated to examine allegations of detainee abuse at the Baghdad confinement facility at Abu Ghraib. Shortly thereafter, the commanding general of Combined Joint Task Force Seven requested a separate administrative investigation into systemic issues such as command policies and internal procedures related to detention operations. That administrative investigation is complete; however, the findings and recommendations have not been approved. As a result of the criminal investigation, six military personnel have been charged with criminal offenses to include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts with another.”–Brigadier Gen. Mark Kimmitt, Deputy Director for Coalition Operations, Coalition Provisional Authority Briefing, March 20, 2004
“Correspondent Brooke Hart: But in a 53-page secret report, Army Major General Antonio Taguba says an investigation found a disturbing pattern of sadistic, blatant, wanton criminal abuses. The report was completed in February, but the Pentagon said Defense Secretary Rumsfeld hadn’t read it. Democratic lawmakers are frustrated. Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M.: This is an unacceptable response. That’s not the level of concern the American people would expect of their military commanders for this type of conduct.”—”Pentagon officials to answer tough questions from the Senate Armed Services Committee regarding Iraqi prisoner abuse,” CNBC, April 4, 2004
“SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. …. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its [sic] ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. … I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open.”—Testimony of Military Police Specialist Matthew Wisdom, hearing on charges of prisoner abuse, April 9, 2004; according to The New Yorker, “After the hearing, the presiding investigative officer ruled that there was sufficient evidence to convene a court-martial.”
“The investigation started after SPC Darby … got a CD from CPL Graner. … He came across pictures of naked detainees.”—Testimony of Special Agent Scott Bobeck, Army Criminal Investigation Division, same hearing, April 9, 2004
“Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast—given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.”—CBS News statement on its broadcast of photographs of Iraqi prisoner abuse, April 29, 2004, referring to a DOD appeal received on or near April 15, 2004
“Our military is … performing brilliantly. See, the transition from torture chambers and rape rooms and mass graves and fear of authority is a tough transition. And they’re doing the good work of keeping this country stabilized as a political process unfolds.”—Bush, remarks on “Tax Relief and the Economy,” Iowa, April 15, 2004
“We’re facing supporters of the outlaw cleric, remnants of Saddam’s regime that are still bitter that they don’t have the position to run the torture chambers and rape rooms. … They will fail because they do not speak for the vast majority of Iraqis who do not want to replace one tyrant with another. They will fail because the will of our coalition is strong. They will fail because America leads a coalition full of the finest military men and women in the world.”—Bush, remarks on the USA Patriot Act, Pennsylvania, April 19, 2004
“We acted, and there are no longer mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms in Iraq.”—Bush, remarks at Victory 2004 Reception, Florida, April 23, 2004
“The pictures show Americans, men and women, in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners. There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English. In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up.”—Dan Rather, 60 Minutes II, April 28, 2004
“A year ago, I did give the speech from the carrier, saying that we had achieved an important objective, that we’d accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein. And as a result, there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq.”—Bush, remarks in the Rose Garden, April 30, 2004
“There are those who seek to derail the transition to democracy because they want to return to the days of mass graves and torture chambers and rape rooms. But that’s not going to happen.”—McClellan, White House press briefing, April 30, 2004
“A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba … listed some of the wrongdoing: ‘Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.’ “—Seymour M. Hersh, “Torture at Abu Ghraib,” The New Yorker, posted April 30, 2004
“Because we acted, torture rooms are closed, rape rooms no longer exist, mass graves are no longer a possibility in Iraq.”—Bush, remarks at “Ask President Bush” event, Michigan, May 3, 2004
“I’m not a lawyer. My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture. … I don’t know if it is correct to say what you just said, that torture has taken place, or that there’s been a conviction for torture. And therefore I’m not going to address the torture word.”—Rumsfeld, Defense Department Operational Update Briefing, May 4, 2004
“It’s very important for people, your listeners, to understand in our country that when an issue is brought to our attention on this magnitude, we act—and we act in a way where leaders are willing to discuss it with the media. And we act in a way where, you know, our Congress asks pointed questions to the leadership. … Iraq was a unique situation because Saddam Hussein had constantly defied the world and had threatened his neighbors, had used weapons of mass destruction, had terrorist ties, had torture chambers …”—Bush, interview with Al Arabiya Television, May 5, 2004
http://slate.msn.com/id/2100014/
Muslims have been using torture & death since the 7th century. Sometimes you have to fight fire with a little heat Melvin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest
But, guess what? It doesn’t work.
your premise is wrong if the reports about KSM are true and as far as im concerned a target like ksm deserves whatever comes his way.he caused 3000 american civiallian deaths.he planned and helped execute it and to get info from him to save other american lives we got rough oh well from what i understand he got no worse than someone going through SARS training.
He was giving up info before he was tortured. After they waterboarded him, he clammed up.
CEs, Wrong…..try reading the report. ksm only started talking AFTER he was waterboarded. Next?
Sorry, I was thinking of Abu Zubayda.
And more to the point, he was subjected to a shit load of torture even within the first two week of capture. So it can’t be said it was waterboarding alone that caused him to talk.
And moreover, after prolonged waterboarding, he started recanting info.
So at that time, it wasn’t clear if the stuff he was spewing was worth using.
Tell ya what Mark, you get me an non-redacted copy and then I’ll be able to actually read it.
I like to have and use facts before making judgements, but that’s just me.
our currant residents of the white house are stalling releasing the report that deals with the info KSM gave us and how it was used to stop follow on attacks.it might actually make cheney and bush look good god forbid.
a. The W admin could have released it before leaving office.
b. Wouldn’t you agree that “Ifs” don’t cut it?
The biggest problem with the torturing/”EITs” was that they wre kept secret from so many people who a. needed to verify the info given up and b. needed to make good decisions based on this info. That is, the info is only as good as its source and HOW it was acquired.
Moreover, all the info needed to be second-sourced, etc, so taking one guy’s torture-enduced info as ‘gospel’ is unsound…especially when the people doing these interrogations weren’t trained for it, like the FBI has long been.
WRong! It most certainly DID work. Try reading the report, brainiac
“Muslims have been using torture & death since the 7th century.”
So have Christians, you dipshit.
whoisjohngalt: I guess you missed the Wikipedia entries about the Spanish Inquisition and the “witch” “investigations” and “trials” in this country. Torture was part and parcel of Christianity, particulary the Catholic Church, for centuries. We now look back on those times as barbaric…don’t we?
What works? A surge in Afghanistan? Your peeps are in charge. It seems that people are losing confidence:
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/obama_approval_index_history
You think blaming Bush will work forever?
I said it a year and half ago.
Afganistan is the butt end of the stick of nations and a place where empires go to die.
The fact that the liberals were all for expanding a war in an area of little strategic benefit while ignoring Iraq which western civilization either lives or dies based on it’s success shows that these self loathing liberals don’t read maps and have little understanding of Geo political and American power in the world
I’m so glad to see Cheney once again taking it a to the pansy liberals who with their arm chair, second guessing, revisionist historical analysis once again have no moral standing and find their standing shrinking in a most comical way with the American people.
Liberals can’t win when they only care about others instead of Americans…
Thanks to liberals Cheney and the CIA are the new heros..
Congratulations morons!!
After the trillions spent,cap and trade insanity,health care debacle, naive and pathetic defeat and retreat and now prosecuting those that kept us safe.
Is there a wonder that you will lose 100 plus seats next year.
Very severe backlash coming libs!
Well said.
The type of torture that was maybe used was probably not ethical. I say maybe because I do feel they are over exaggerating what unethical torture was used. Y
es we are supposed to be above our enemies, but you might want to take a look at how many American prisoners of War have been treated and are being treated by other countries.
You might want to remember as we approach the 8th anniversary of 9/11 what was happening then and where you were. Remember 9/11 was the reason these men did what they did.
How many of you sat in an office realizing you were trapped and about to burn to death, maybe being one of those who jumped instead of burning?
How many of you sat in a plane and realized that your plane was about to crash into a building?
How many of you sat at home listening to a cell phone as a loved one told you their final good byes from a captured plane?
How many of you sat in NY or DC or other places waiting for your phone to ring just one more time so you would know it was not your loved one?
How many of you sat in major cities very close to ports, airports and other major attractions that were rumored to be next?
How many of you helped clean up at the Pentagon or Trade Center site hoping to find some fragment of a body part so someone could finally know for certain?
How long will it be before we see another similar Trade Center Attack as our government lets down our defenses in releasing war-time information?
Maybe those purported tortures were not ethical. But in times of terror and war things are done to help protect one’s country.
Need anyone remind you all that we are still at war. The same war that these papers concern.
Strange that this is one of the very few areas that Obama deems appropriate to be transparent on.
As Obama opens up our war ethics to the world I pray that our country is not attacked again.
How many interrogation experts, generals, and psychologists does it take for people to understand that torture doesn’t work?
Except, I’m sure it works for the sadists amongst us who need to feel good about something. Or Dick Cheney, who never told a truth in his life, who is parading around the country in a desperate attempt to cover his worthless ass. If you believe what he’s saying, let me know when you’re looking for a bridge.
Is it common knowledge that the CIA hired 2 assholes with no previous experience in interrogation to set up their program? If it isn’t, why not? They over-ruled everything that had been done before - and seemed to be working well, thank you.
Looking at the broader picture, how many Iraqis died because of our invasion of an innocent country? 100,000? 200,000? How many good American soldiers died because of the same thing? None of them deserved to die - especially for a lie. The fact is that WE invaded a country and killed thousands of people that had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.
But that’s all right, I guess, since it was we Americans who were doing the killing and destruction of a country. How many new terrorists have we created due to our actions?
When are we going to hold our own people responsible for this charade? (Now we’ve got essentially the same thing going on in Afghanistan.)
Seems we conveniently forget both sides of the coin. As we approach the anniversary of 9/11 it would be just as fitting to remember the victims of this mess that we have, in the name of fighting terrorism, foisted upon a gullible public.
Another liberal witch hunt. The voters will remember in 2010. ksm started singing like a bird after a little water was thrown in his face. Thats the facts{not opinion} The post makes it seem like every single detainee was tortured. In fact only 3 terrorists were subjected to enhanced techniques. and another fact: IT SAVED THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS. PERIOD!!! So go ahead liberals. Take one case before an american jury. Have your ass handed too you on a plate, with a resounding “not guilty” see how many seats you lose in the house in 2010. in fact. Im begging you to prosecute someone. Anyone. Make my day!
I could never have asked for more from these libs.
I guess they want to set a record for the most humiliating defeat in world history!
The American people enjoy a good rout!
Apparently waterboarding DID work. Whether alternatives would have worked as well, we’ll never know. I do know that continuing a CIA witch hunt is damaging to morale and makes us appear weak imbeciles to those who wish to kill us. Our strength is our weakness.
Wake me up when WaPo asks Holder to comment on his investigation of his own law firm’s defending the same people we’ve housed in Gitmo. I’m betting I’ll sleep longer than Rip van Winkle on that one.
Al-Qaeda Murders Its Way Across the Sahara
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/08/obamas_war_on_american_soverei.html
Muslim Protesters threaten bloodshed over Hindu temple
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2009/08/muslim-protesters-threaten-bloodshed-over-hindu-temple-.html
i have said this before and i will say it again now ,the whole reason the fanatics blow themselves up is to transsition to paradise. they cant go if they are unclean and to a muslim nothing is more unclean than a pig.the brits did the following in india in the 1800’s and we should do it now, if a warrior of god is killed in battle against us forces or civilian targets they should be buried in a pig skin.a little non politically correct but it would have the added bounus in rual america of helping farmers with the disposal of pig skins ,only those not good enough for footballs of course.
Maybe we all need to carry a strip of pig skin with us. Sorta like a silver cross with a vampire.
yea give it to the troopers to stuff in the mouths of any they kill.
I consider this prosecution of the CIA to be an act of war on the security of the US by this rotten administration.
If they go down this path, they will be leading this country down the path of the banana republic and tribalism
I cant stress enough how utterly obscene Holder and Obama are.
And consider what our enemies are learning from this. They must be gloating in glee. This will only embolden them… and what is their goal? To annihilate our way of life.
Our enemies are probably having a field day right now laughing at us.
In this past week alone two confessed convicted terrorist were released to go back to their home land. One from Gitzmo and one from Scotland.
Abdel Baset al-Megrahi convicted for the 1988 killing of 270 people on board an air plane got a Hero’s Welcome.
The other Mohammed Jawad who confessed to throwing grenades that injured two American officers. Mohammed Jawad is now planning on suing America. Why not thanks to Obama and Obama’s administration Mohammed Jawad probably has a good deal of evidence.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6812714.ece
Guess if we release enough terrorists and GITZMO prisoners, they can help fund Osama bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda organizations with money won from suing our country.
I bet Eric Holder’s lawfirm will represent him for free.
Thankfully for Holder and these Libs the former admin Has the Goods to turn the tables and make the dims the villains.
Already has happened..Libs are running scared as the American people turn away from them in mass.
The real power structure lies in the past admin where a billion dollars is held in reserve to prosecute and destroy all those who would attempt to dismantle the anti-terror structure.
Lives will be destroyed for those who dare prosecute and go against the wishes of the American people.
When you have a severe recession and your out to prosecute your own country you better watch out for the pitchforks.
The people are not happy. I wish Rasmussen asked the Democrats the question they report asking the Republicans.
From The Hill:
Rasmussen poll: Replace the entire Congress in November
More than half of voters surveyed in a recent Rasmussen poll say they would prefer to replace every member of Congress this November — a slight decrease in voter dissatisfaction with both chambers since October 2008.
More troubling for Congressional Republicans in particular: 69 percent say the party’s elected officials are out of touch with their conservative base.
Rasmussen cites a number of reasons for voters’ increased frustration with their lawmakers, including the “unpopular $700-billion bailout plan in the heat of a presidential campaign and a seeming financial industry meltdown.”
But contributing most to the dismal numbers seems to be the health care debate. Only 22 percent of respondents think their legislators have a “good understanding” of the proposed reforms, Rasmussen discovered in related poll last week.
ATROCITIES ON HINDUS + SIKHS
Atrocities on Hindus
Atrocities on Sikhs
Islam’s Genocide In South Asia/The Indian Subcontinent
Witness the brutal assault on Hindus and Sikhs by Muslims across south Asia
http://www.hindurashtra.org/atrocities.htm
Now lets talk about the poorly mistreated Muslims
A Hindu perspective on the religion of peace
by Kal El on December 4, 2008
http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/12/04/a-hindu-perspective-on-the-religion-of-peace/
http://www.historyofjihad.org/india.html
Fierce and persistent Hindu resistance to the Islamic Jihad prevented the complete Islamization of India
Unlike the complete Islamization of Persia, Egypt, Mesopotamia, Turkey, North Africa, the Islamization of India was never complete. After more than one millennium of Muslim Tyranny from 715 up to 1761, more than 70 percent of the population of India remained Hindu. This was NOT due to any Muslim charity or benevolence, since the murderous and savage beastlike Muslims have none of these characteristics.
…
The Hindu resistance was not just fierce, but it kept increasing in ferocity till with the Marathas, the Hindus overtook the Muslims in their ferocity. It was this lesson which the Hindus learnt from the Muslims and applied against the Muslims, that led to the Hindu (Maratha) victories against the beast-like Muslims. It was the Marathas who presaged President Bush when he said “We will hunt down our enemies” The Marathas literally hunted down the Muslims. The only other case of a Muslim defeat in face of such tactics was in Ethiopia and Southern Sudan (Nubia) where the African Christians of Nubia used guerilla tactics against the Muslims to hunt them down and finally to defeat them.
…
This teaches us two lessons. One that only when you pay back the Muslims with the same barbaric token, that they can come temporarily to their senses. But never ever trust the Muslims for their word, since the word of a Muslim is given only as matter of expediency. Whenever fortune favors them, they would go back on their word! In fact, their founder Mohammed-ibn-Abdallah has set an example for them with his repudiation of the Treaty of Hudaibiya that he signed with his clansmen the Quraish of Makkah. And all Muslims have to follow his “illustrious(sic)” example in their dealings with all Kafirs (non-Muslims).
Likewise, when all non-Muslims should enter into any agreement with Muslims only if the Muslims cannot be beaten militarily, and when the fortune favors the non-Muslims, they should repudiate any treaty with the Muslims and resume hostilities with the one single aim of destroying Islam. There is no other way of salvation for humankind, from this vile creed of the Islam.
Good thing I wasn’t in charge. I would have filled the jury with family members, of the souls lost on 9/11. Then when the terrorists were found guilty I would have handed them over to said family members. Pig skins I heard someone say? I just imagine that every farmer in America stands ready to donate, or do whatever else is called for.
Wonder what the skinny one ate between dawn and dusk this Muslim special time of year?
tazda look it up the brits stopped a major uprising in colonial india by executing the ringleaders and the burying them in pigskins thus denying them paradise.
Yes, I had read that before. Thanks for refreshing my memory.
At the beginning of the Iraq War, as a selling point,
were were told by the President that we were going to shutdown the torture and rape rooms. This was a moral argument that if the staunchest opponent of the war couldn’t argue with. This was about what we stand for as Americans.
Now read this piece. Read it in it’s entirety and don’t dismiss it as propaganda. Think of it as another bit of data. Read the noble quotes From the president and others, quotes that we all believed to be right, and true. Proof that our purpose for being there was just, and right.
Then look at the absolute debauchery and without question torture that ensued.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2100014/
The subsequent quotes and denials. We’ve had radio and TV personalities defending this stuff and soft peddling it. Oh, so we did this..so what. Etc..
Is this what we send our sons and daughter off to war for? Does this align with the morals and values we teach them?
Maybe you should read a few comments up about the Muslim conquest of India.
How many millions had to die because at first the Hindus thought sticking to their traditional values was more important than survival.
Lesson: Do not let your enemy use your virtues against you.
You people are making me sick.
The failure of execution in this war had nothing to do with not stooping low enough to meet the enemy at it’s level down in the sewer. It was about stubborn misguided ideology, poor planning. It was about not worrying about the geopolitical economic consequences of stepping on the wrong toes in the region.
“It was about worrying about the geopolitical economic consequences of stepping on the wrong toes in the region”
so when the madmen of iran get the bomb and use it ,it will be our fault for stepping on toes?
I was not suggesting they shouldn’t have been stepped on toes.
They had Bin Laden reportedly fleeing on he back of donkey in the hills Tora Bora with our guys all dressed and ready to and amde them stop. Someone made a political decision not to step on either Pakistan’s or Saudi Arabia’s toes.
I was not suggesting they shouldn’t have been stepping on toes.
They had Bin Laden reportedly fleeing on he back of donkey in the hills Tora Bora with our guys all dressed and ready to and amde them stop. Someone made a political decision not to step on either Pakistan’s or Saudi Arabia’s toes.
no what the idiots did was weeks before tora bora they had pulled some of the teams out and sent them to iraq to search for non existant wmds and they had extremly bad advice from someone that the northern alliance could do the job with us airpower and special forces help.
i was spitting nails and jumping up and down at their stupidity as apparantly no one bothered to spell out the history of bribery of opponants among the tribes.
we should of inserted 10th mountain and the 101st and isolated the area ,but shrub was too focused on iraq due to preconceived ideas about the threats.
A constant complaint of mine is that Officialdom does not understand Islam. I can sorta excuse that up through 9/11 , but after 9/11 there is absolutely no excuse for Officialdom to remain ignorant about the historical nature of our enemy.
And as bad as the Republicans were in understanding the threat, the Democrats, in reaction to the fact that the Republicans did make a little headway into understanding decided they had to be Anti-Republican instead of Anti-Jihad, and so the Democrats show absolutely no understanding whatsoever.
So yes, poor Post-9/11 execution… what makes you think it isn’t catastrophically worse now?
It is also taking the word in some cases from peoples whose belief it it is ok to lie if it is for the good of Islam. Especially if it brings down the CIA and the USA.
Anyone know a whopper teller, who is tall and skinny and hates the majority of the USA population?
As for me I am with the CIA. I would trust them to defend this country before I would a creature bought and owned.
Sorry, I’m not defend a right wing culture that defends someone sticking a glowstick up someone’s @$$ or make prisoner masturbate on each other. and worse.
If the CIA is getting hung out to dry I would look at the previous administration and those in congress who authorized them to do what ever it is they did. That is what this is about.
Yup, although it’d be nice if oBlunder went after the guys who “made it legal” instead of the assets who were doing ‘their job’ (although they too had to know some of these things were horrible.)
Oh give it a rest.
I assume you’re conflating Abu Gharib with the CIA’s activities?
There was nothing ideological about what the jail-keepers did in AG.
For as smart as so many of you Leftists think you are, you’re sure in a prison of a one-dimensional us vs them framework. It’s quite boring to those of us who aren’t so obtuse.
How soon so nany have forgotten ….
Maybe that is why Darry. Worley wrote the song he did …. How quickly have we forgotten what happened all those eventful days..Pearl Harbor, 9/11 — Do we need another before we learn?
I hear people saying we don’t need this war
But, I say there’s some things worth fighting for
What about our freedom and this piece of ground
We didn’t get to keep ‘em by backing down
They say we don’t realize the mess we’re getting in
Before you start your preaching let me ask you this my friend
Have you forgotten how it felt that day?
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside going thru a living hell
And you say we shouldn’t worry ’bout bin Laden
Have you forgotten?
They took all the footage off my T.V.
Said it’s too disturbing for you and me
It’ll just breed anger that’s what the experts say
If it was up to me I’d show it everyday
Some say this country’s just out looking for a fight
Well, after 9/11 man I’d have to say that’s right
Have you forgotten how it felt that day?
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside going thru a living hell
And we vowed to get the one’s behind bin Laden
Have you forgotten?
My father and several uncles fought in WWII. It look likes we did forget a few things about it. We fought Japan for a number of reasons. In the 30’s during the conquest to conquer South East Asia they imprisoned raped, tortured and worked/starved to death what the history books claim to be billion of Chinese.
Something like 44% of all U.S. Pow’s died or were killed in captivity. They tortured our men. They marched thousand of them, to a low death at Bataan.
When it was over, we prosecuted many of the for what they did. For things like waterboarding among them.
My mother-in-law served in WW II, as a young girl of 20. You must remember that women were a bit different and more protected back then as to their understanding of the horrors of the world. She is and has always been one of the most compassionate women I have ever met and I would never tell a mother-in-law joke about her.
When our country took back the Philippines she was one of the first women to go ashore to help with the women POWs.
The atrocities that these young women saw would turn anyone’s inside out. The Japanese merciless cruel treatment of the women was just as horrific and degrading if not more so with the female POWs as the male POWs.
Some female POWs I understand were Pilipino and just barely a teenager, while several of the American female POWs were just barely 18.
Many were forced to become personal concubines enduring brutal daily beatings and treatment at the hands of the enemy guards and soldiers. (This is the mild version, for I was told more that would turn even the strongest of stomachs).
I am sure that there are stories here and there of ill treatment of WW II or other enemy POWs, yet I will guarantee you they will never add up to the number or type atrocities committed against American POWs in any war.
Does this excuse ill treatment of our enemy POWs, No!!
But it does not excuse the releasing of confessed and convicted terrorists so that they can regroup and recommit the same atrocities against our company. ESPECIALLY WHEN WE ARE STILL AT WAR!!!!
Here is more on the atrocities being made on other countries. With the tenderness shown by Mr Holder and his buddy in the bully pulpit towards terrorists, this may well be playing in a town near you.
Hope everyone will take the time and scroll down and read and see the dead eyes of the victims. Imagine it your wife, daughter, mother or sister, or yourself.
http://www.indiaworldreport.com/archive/update22_08_09_nyt.html
most people dont understand the extent of the threat,they cant grasp the fact thease people just want to subjugagate or kill us if we wont convert.
Our chance to vote on this subject.
What do you think of Cheney’s comments?
Thumbs up 57% 17,530
Thumbs down 43% 13,317
Total Votes: 30,847
Poll Results
Who do you trust more to handle terrorism issues?
Republicans 57% 15,553
Democrats 28%
http://news.aol.com/ polls
My cut and paste was somewhere south of perfect. But when you go you can see the missing data.
Coming from the right wingers who inhabit AOL, and tend to crash their polls, those are astonishingly good figures for the Dems. Seems most of them have totally forgotten who was sitting in a kids classroom reading at his level, My Pet Goat, when the planes hit the towers. The guy who ignored the warnings. Great protection that was.
i wonder where barky will be on vacation when osama hits us again.
Crawford?
na he will be shooting hoops somewhere and wont want to be bothered on his private time.
The real vote works like this. Some corporate fed stooge wrapped in ideology will get elected. The appropriate right or left media will ride shotgun for them and help destroy all competitors. Their main goal will be to get their hands on our $$ and give it Wall
St, etc..
The scenery will change a little but he result will be about the same.
There is one voting bloc in Congress that has consistintly voted against all the crap since and including TARP… and that is the Conservative-wing of the House GOP.
You would probably call them the “Far Right” considering that it’s the so-called “Moderate” GOP’ers who went along for the ride that Henry Paulsen and the Congressional Democrat Leadership cobbled together.
It was Conservative House GOP that opposed the Stimulus fraud, the Omnibus, the automotive bailouts, Cap and Destroy.
Occasionally a Dennis Kucinich type will oppose one of these things for not being radical enough.. but that’s fine a no vote is a no vote.
But remember.. the “Moderates” go along with all the destruction that’s happening.
thats why the next potus cannot be a eastern educated elite from either party,and even though im a moderate dem or was this is why i will work my tail off for sarah if she runs.because she IS one of us.
For a bunch of atheists (in general) why are you all so obsessed with moral superiority? I thought morals were relative.
I’ll take staying ALIVE and not APPEARING like a bunch of pussies awaiting for slaughter by a bunch or homicidal maniacs any day over YOUR Brand of morality. What exactly makes your morality superior to anyother? Your morality has always been quite arbitrary and self-serving eg. pissing on the Madonna doesn’t faze you…nor did the Lewisky or Edwards scandal…or how about those sick screwballs bombing innocent mothers and babies in Isreal? How about the millions massacered in Tibet, Cambodia and Vietnam as a result of your so-called opposition to Vietnam? or Stalins millions dead? Somehow when atheists or non-christians do the killing your Moral Superiority fails to kick in…mmm interesting. But god forbid a christian administration THREATENS evil (and not actually does it)…or puts panties on murderers heads… now that upsets you.
Your hypocricy is staggering. If you read history you’ll find your kind of morality (the atheist brand) has destroy more people in 100 years than all religious wars combined.
I say we didn’t torture them even close to enough!