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The Issue Of Women And Health Insurance, As Well As News That Will Be A Big Surprise

There has been a great deal of talk and debate about health care in the country recently as the Democrats push Heath Care Reform. A lot of animosity has been directed at the Health Insurance Industry as a whole. As it turns out, some is justified, but some is not. I was surprised by what is NOT justified, and I think you might be, too

But first, another reason to be angry at insurers, especially if you are female, and living in one of thirty-nine states in the union, as this article highlights, Women Pay Up To 50% More For Health Insurance Premiums. Now, maybe I was just naive to not realize this was happening, but happening it is. This article focuses on the state of Colorado:

Checking the “female” box when buying health insurance is likely to cost extra — perhaps up to 50 percent more than a man would pay for the same coverage.

Gender-rating — or what some term as flat-out sexual discrimination — is linked to the simple fact that women, particularly those under age 50 or so, go to the doctor more often than men.

But outrage over how women are treated in the individual health insurance market is mounting as stories emerge of companies refusing to cover maternity benefits and denying coverage because of past domestic violence or cesarean sections, including a Colorado woman who was told she would have to get sterilized to qualify for insurance.

Federal proposals, as well as pending state legislation, would ban gender-rating and require maternity coverage, even as the insurance industry warns that lowering premiums for younger women could mean higher premiums for most everyone else.

Colorado women age 40 and under shopping for health insurance in the individual market, not through an employer, pay from 10 percent to 59 percent more than men, according to analysis by the National Women’s Law Center.

They pay more even when maternity coverage is not included. And in many cases, a female nonsmoker pays more for health coverage than a man who smokes.

“Women should not be penalized because their plumbing works differently and needs ongoing maintenance,” Colorado Insurance Commissioner Marcy Morrison told a state health care task force.

Holy smokes. Did you know this?? So, being a woman is a pre-existing condition? That’s a pretty difficult one to overcome. Especially since we’re the only ones who can get pregnant, which has its OWN set of issues:

As a state lawmaker, Morrison fought insurance companies to stop “drive-through deliveries” so women could stay in the hospital longer after childbirth. She said gender-rating is discrimination tied to decades-old salary disparity, particularly in female-dominated professions such as nursing and teaching. And she is skeptical of insurance company claims that “the sky is going to fall” and premiums would rise if gender-rating were outlawed.

America’s Health Insurance Plans, the industry’s national association, proposed ending gender-rating and the practice of rejecting customers based on pre-existing conditions. In exchange, insurance companies want powerful legislation that would compel everyone to buy insurance.

Discrimination against women in the insurance market goes far beyond premium rates, reform advocates said.

And you are not even going to believe how:

Sterilization Suggested

Take, for example, Centennial resident Peggy Robertson, who was denied insurance by Golden Rule Insurance Co. because she delivered her second child by cesarean section in 2006. Maternity benefits weren’t even part of the package.

Robertson, whose husband is a self-employed chiropractor, contacted the International Cesarean Awareness Network and filed a complaint with the state Division of Insurance, arguing the denial was unfair and that the company had asked her offensive questions during the application process.

Later, she received a letter from Golden Rule telling her the company would consider covering her if “some form of sterilization has occurred since the caesarean-section delivery.”

“It was just really horrific and terribly insulting,” said Robertson, a stay-at-home mom of two boys. “You felt like you were a herd of cattle or something.”

Robertson’s recent testimony before the U.S. Senate health committee in part prompted Sen. Michael Bennet, D-Colo., to write a letter to Senate leaders adding his voice to the call for reform to ban gender-rating and other “harmful insurance industry practices.”

Since denying Robertson, Golden Rule, an Indianapolis-based division of United Healthcare, now covers women who have had cesarean sections but only with increased premiums to cover the risk of a future cesarean birth or with exclusionary riders — clauses that deny coverage for cesareans for a certain number of years or forever.

“This helps us extend coverage to more people while keeping premiums lower for all of our customers,” said Ellen Laden, public relations director for Golden Rule. “The real issue is how to deal broadly with providing access to health care for everyone while still keeping health insurance from being cost-prohibitive.”

Sterilization??? What, are we back in the mid-1950’s or something?? I noticed that they didn’t suggest sterilization for MEN, which makes a lot more sense for the health insurers since it’s CHEAPER, and doesn’t require hospitalization. This is just staggering in this day and age. Thank heavens there are people fighting this suggestion:

Bennet and others, including the National Women’s Law Center, are calling for an end to coverage denials based on pre-existing conditions such as pregnancy and surviving domestic violence or sexual assault — a problem revealed in a recent report from the law center.

Along those lines, there is another big issue that applies to women only:

Lack Of Maternity Benefits

Another common frustration among women who buy insurance individually — and there are 125,000 such women in Colorado — is that maternity benefits are almost nonexistent.

Suzanne Pariser, a Denver lawyer and mother of 2-year-old Willa, is putting off expanding her family because she cannot find an affordable insurance plan that includes maternity coverage.

“That’s the main reason we’re not having a baby right now,” she said. “We definitely want to have another child.”

Pariser is annoyed that insurance company executives, in essence, are determining her family planning.

“My anger is mostly that insurance companies view having a baby as a medical complication that costs them money,” she said. “They view it as a disease.”

The only plan she could find that offered maternity coverage was more expensive in the long run than paying out of pocket to have a baby, Pariser figured.

Costs vary by hospital or birthing center, but the average bill for a vaginal birth with no complications is about $7,500 and for a cesarean section, $13,200.

Viewing having a baby as a “disease.” That is quite an indictment, especially taken in conjunction with suggesting sterilization.

Back to the overall concept of gender-biased insurance:

The insurance industry in Colorado has not taken an official position on statehouse bills that would ban gender-rating in the individual market and require maternity coverage. Their stance likely depends on national reform — and in particular, whether federal law will force everyone, even the healthiest people, to buy insurance.

But industry officials point out that higher premiums for women are based on analysis from actuaries, which show women are much more likely to visit the doctor. The rate at which women visit primary care physicians is more than 50 percent higher than for men, according to the New America Foundation.

By about age 50 or 55, men typically begin using health services more than women, and premiums for older men are typically more expensive than those for older women, said Ben Price, executive director of the Colorado Association of Health Plans.

“The insurance industry is engaged in its own internal discussion on this issue, and health plans here in Colorado are of course taking a fresh look at gender-rating and many other issues that have been raised as a part of the debate both in Washington and here in Colorado,” he said.

Officials with Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield of Colorado have “strong reservations” about eliminating gender-rating and requiring maternity coverage. The practice is rampant in the auto insurance industry, they argue.

“The most expensive purchase in auto (insurance) is the young, invincible male; they are the risk-takers,” said Rebecca Weiss, director of government affairs. “For some reason, auto insurance doesn’t seem as inflammatory to people as health insurance.

“Shouldn’t health insurance premiums be based on some degree on how many medical services you receive so that everyone is paying according to what they are using?”

I am no doctor, or health insurer, but if women go go the doctor more often, isn’t it possible that will keep them out of the hospital more often? Unless it’s for a “disease” like having a baby or something. Ahem. But you know what the bottom line is: “

It Would Raise Prices

Insurance companies probably would have to raise prices on other groups to make up the difference if they were forced to lower prices for younger women, said Tom Gosselin, director of small-group underwriting at Anthem.

“It definitely would raise the prices, is the simple thing,” he said. “You are now charging the 22-year-old guy who has no concept in the world about having a baby for maternity. He’s more likely to choose not to have health insurance at all.”

Eleven states ban gender-rating in the individual insurance market.

A review by the National Conference of State Legislatures found that those states had not determined whether their bans caused health insurance rates to rise.

In Montana, which outlawed gender-rating in 1983, some lawmakers want to repeal the ban, arguing fewer insurers are willing to operate in the state because of it.

Colorado is among several states that have banned gender-rating in the small-group insurance market, which in this state applies to businesses with 50 or fewer employees. For businesses with more than 50 employees, insurance companies can consider age and sex when setting rates — but the risk is spread throughout the company so everyone’s premiums are equal.

Reform advocates argue the policy adversely affects businesses where the workforce is predominantly female, such as child-care centers or home health agencies.

I just wonder if this issue is being addressed by the Congress as it looks at this whole health care reform thing? Seems to me it is a pretty big issue, as is the cost in general:

Care Requires Doctor Visits

A Denver Post review of online health insurance quotes found that a woman living in the same Denver ZIP code with the same date of birth would pay $20 to $35 per month — or up to $420 more per year — than a man for the same coverage. The rates reviewed were for basic, high-deductible plans, ranging from $71 to $158 per month.

NARAL Pro-Choice Colorado is among those fighting for change in the law, arguing that women are typically the responsible sex when it comes to birth control and that those prescriptions often require an annual doctor visit.

“Under the current health care system, women are penalized for taking responsibility for their own health,” said Toni Panetta, NARAL’s political director.

State Rep. Beth McCann, a Denver Democrat sponsoring the bill banning gender-rating, said insurance companies failed to produce “sufficient factual basis to charge different premiums for women and men.”

“It seems as though it’s somewhat arbitrary,” she said. “It’s a matter of equality and fairness.”

If the state legislation passes during the next legislative session, it probably would take effect about two years ahead of national reform.

Mary Saracino, a self-employed writer in Lafayette who has had to purchase insurance on the individual market, said she is shocked “and, dare I say, angry” that monthly premiums for women are higher.

“It seems highly discriminatory,” said Saracino, 55. “Would consumers put up with that if, say, men had to pay more for tires than women because some statistic says that male drivers are harder on their cars than female drivers?”

Uh, hell to the yes, it seems discriminatory! There just isn’t a whole helluva lot we can do about being female (without getting into the whole issue of gender-realignment surgery, that is). Or want to do anything about it. A whole lot of us are actually happy to be women. To make us pay more money, especially when we typically make less money, for health insurance is reprehensible.

Here are the places you can live without fear of being charged for being a woman:

Some Protection

These 11 states ban gender- rating by insurers in the individual insurance market:

California, Maine, Massachusetts, Montana, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, and Washington. (Jennifer Brown: 303-954-1593 or jenbrown@denverpost.com)

That’s it.

And now for the big surprise. I am telling you, I was really shocked when I learned this. Would you like to take a guess as to how much Insurers actually make in profits? About 2.2% above the amount of money they take in. In fact, they are 35th out of 53 for industries. I have no love lost for insurance companies, especially in light of articles like the one above, but that is startling. It is in complete opposition to EVERYTHING we have heard about them. Are they a pain in the ass to deal with in general, like filing claims, or having claims paid? Often, yes. But are they raking in the cash hand over fist as we have been hearing from Congress on a daily basis? Apparently not. That shocked the crap out of me. That doesn’t immediately absolve them, of course, but it does greatly affect the very foundation for the arguments about health care in this country. Something to consider.

And since we are talking about women and health care, October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Many of us, myself included, need to take the appropriate actions for our health.

Along those lines, I would like to leave you with the following, a recent interview with Elizabeth Edwards:

A brave soul, Elizabeth is. And one who is in my thoughts and prayers as she continues to live with breast cancer (I am trying really hard not to say something snarky here about her husband…). All the best to her. And to all women who are living with this disease, and hopefully, being cured of it.

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Comment by donjo | 2009-10-27 17:37:13

Insurers also take their gigantic payrolls off the table. In other words, it counts against their bottom line.

 

Comment by Lana | 2009-10-27 17:40:35

Gender-rating — or what some term as flat-out sexual discrimination —

Uh…yeah

And let’s not forget that many insurance plans cover Viagra but NOT birth control pills. There was a big brouhaha over that when Carly Fiorina didn’t know John McCain’s position on that last year.

Great article, Amy. Thanks for all your hard work.

Comment by Rabble Rouser Revrend Amy | 2009-10-27 18:08:33

Thanks, Lana - I appreciate that.

And you are absolutely right abt Viagra v. birth control pills. Such a glaring double standard.

 
 

Comment by Portia Elizabeth | 2009-10-27 18:24:21

So… for a real public action we need an insurance plan BY women FOR women.

I want to say more, but I have to go scream for a bit about this.

Comment by Lana | 2009-10-27 18:33:59

Can I come, too? AAAARGH!

 
 

Comment by Bronwyn's Harbor | 2009-10-27 18:37:46

This is so infuriating, i’m speechless.

Comment by Rabble Rouser Revrend Amy | 2009-10-27 19:26:52

That was pretty much my reaction, too, when I first saw this article. It is just appalling that most of the states in the union treat being a woman as a “condition” to be managed. Grrr.

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-27 20:25:32

Agreed, Rev Amy. And not to be a relentless flack for POTUS, but…if we have any serious hope of seeing any of this madness addressed, it most certainly does not lie with the insurance industry or with the Republicans; it lies with Obama and the Democratic Party, right here, right now. We’re watching American history being made. This bill, if we are successful, will stand with Social Security and Medicare as landmarks in progressive American governance.

Comment by Ferd Berfle | 2009-10-27 21:20:01

it most certainly does not lie with the insurance industry or with the Republicans; it lies with Obama and the Democratic Party, right here, right now.

Oh, most certainly. Yes, Prime Obot (you don’t mind if I call you obot since it’s your alter ego, now do you?). The One who gave away the farm for the pharmaceutical industry is certainly the one we should trust with all out decisions. Why he’s on the look-out for the middle class, huh?

We’re watching American history being made. This bill, if we are successful, will stand with Social Security and Medicare as landmarks in progressive American governance.

Progressive is defined as “making use of or interested in new ideas, findings, or opportunities”. Your idle’s (spelling intentional) is not interested in new ideas or finding or opportunites. His entire campaign and tenure so far in the WH has been to divert attention, declare silly “wars”, engage in irrelevant excuses for inaction, and thumb his nose at his adversaries. So much for progressive. So much for change.

That One’s version of governance consists in the main of contributing enormously to the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere through his constant yapping. Governance is more than talk, more than speeches, more than paid trolls going to websites regurgitating prepackaged poppycock, and more than empty promises.

There is no “we” in That One’s agenda. This ins’t about giving the American public affordable healthcare because had it been, they’d actually have done some homework, including a process-driven study of healthcare. Neither That One’s promises nor any of the bills under consideration include such a study. We replace one boss with another

Landmarks are man-made and/or natural structures by which one may make their way. His ideas aren’t either of those things.

All you do, Prime Obot, is recite regurgitated nonsense you find at any one of a number of sites devoted to the adoration of That One and the continuing dumbing down of the American electorate.

I find your comments juvenile and your presence painful as you have nothing but platitudes, empty promises, and a naivete bordering on the insane.

Please put us all out of your own misery and go haunt some other web presence.

Comment by moonette | 2009-10-27 21:35:05

wow… so much for open discussion. prime, you are beating your head against the wall here.

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-28 00:13:17

I know. But that’s just Ferd, who thinks he still speaks for the majority of this site but I suspect no longer does. You get used to him, though, and there are many genuinely interesting people on this site. Obviously as an Obama supporter I expect to be disagreed with almost always, and often with a lot of passion. But there are smart people here, and certainly people who care a lot about politics. So it remains a very interesting site to read.

Ferd: there’s nothing in your post that is specific. You assert that Obama hasn’t done anything. I think the historic legislation they passed to deal with the greatest financial crisis in 80 years counts as something; history will tell us whether it was positive or negative; so far it looks pretty good (i.e, the banking industry still exists). As for this legislation: pretty much everyone on either side considers it major, either for positive or negative. If you’re asserting that the proposed health care legislation is trivial then I don’t really know what to say, other than to ask you to defend it.

 
 
 

Comment by Onofre's arm | 2009-10-27 21:43:17

You’re absolutely right botfly. Should this legislation go through, it certainly will rival the impending dissasters that the Ponzi schemes of SS and Medicare will inevitably become. These schemes are popular now because, just like the lucky bunch that were enriched by Madoff’s Ponzi scheme, the current benifactors are enjoying the fruits of future generations that will end up paying for today’s indulgences while they will never realize the benefits of their lifelong investment.

This current legislation is even more obvious as a not-so-long term financial dissaster, another Ponzi scheme. The payments for it are front loaded, while the benefits are backloaded. Payment for the program will be immediate, but implementation of benefits will not start until 2013, after the 2012 elections, hmmmm. If it were such a marvelous invention, and it is going to solve sooooo many problems, why wait for it’s implementation? The projected costs and revenue for the program are only calculated through the next ten years. Why is that? The reason is that after ten years, the costs of the program will far outpace the revenues needed to pay for it (MY guess is that the deficit spending on the program will start in half that time). By that time, the asshole politicians that created the mess will be long gone, enjoying their riches the way Madoff’s “lucky” investors are doing now. And if you’re unfortunate enough to be an American ten years from now, you’ll probably suffer an early death by any number of ailments that are currently easily addressed by a simple visit to your GP, because in ten years, with this legislation, the few doctors that haven’t left the discipline in disgust, will be overwhelmed by the hordes of people that will expect their medical needs to be provided free of charge by a bankrupt country. What will be your dying statement when you die from simple blood poisoning? My response to your fate will be “You asked for it, dipshit!”

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-28 00:56:08

Onofre, you make a number of assumptions that at this point are mere assertions, and assertions that would be disputed by many (most) economists, at that. A few quick points:

Social Security and Medicare certainly have longterm funding issues (well, longterm for SS, short-term crisis fixes needed for Medicare), but they have been the twin bedrocks of middle class prosperity for fifty years during which America enjoyed a burst of wealth creation the likes of which the world has rarely seen (Rome and the British Empire come to mind), so to refer to them as Ponzi Schemes strikes me as a quite a bit overly facile. All we really have to do in the case of Social Security is acknowledge that when it was enacted, life expectancy was roughly 65 and benefits kicked in at 65. Now life expectancy is closer to 80 and 65 year olds are generally healthy enough to work, but full benefits still kick in at 65. Somehow get the political balls to adjust the benefit kick-in age for younger workers at, say, 68 instead of 65 (even for me in my 40s that wouldn’t be such a big deal) and viola, no more Social Security funding problem.

Medicare is much more pressing and much more complex, but in broadest strokes, I (like most economists) believe that a truly national health insurance plan would exert dramatic downward price pressures on overall health care prices. I am not an actual economist so it would be difficult for me to defend this position in detail, but it’s hardly an unusual belief. And if it is correct, it throws many of your assumptions about overall cost increases out the window.

And as for your dystopian assumption (very popular among Republicans these days) that a public option would drive so many doctors out of the profession, I can only laugh: it doesn’t take much more than a high school understanding of the supply-demand curve to realize that if tens of millions of new customers are clamoring for health care and hundreds of thousands of doctors are quitting the profession, that will drive up prices, which in turn will diminish the incentives to retire. Unless you are positing that the (entirely voluntary) public option will be so popular that it will draw in tons of customers, but negotiated prices will be so cheap that it will drive out doctors, and the supply/demand imbalance will nonetheless remain, leaving us with the worst of all possible worlds!

Of course you believe that. And if Hillary Clinton had become president, and was proposing much the same health care plan (which she almost certainly would), you would be singing its praises. Sigh.

Comment by Onofre's arm | 2009-10-28 02:40:15

LBJ lied, and he knew he was lying about Medicare when he pushed it through. He needed to lie to make it happen. Medicare has cost nearly TEN times more than the origional bullshit claims that were used to pass it in the first place. When SS was enacted, 5 working people provided for one retiree. Now, only two working people are forced to provide for every retiree. Both programs are unsustainable, it’s just simple mathmatics. They are Ponzi schemes, and the general ignorance and greed of people like you are the reason that they continue to exist and flourish. But selfish snots like you will continue to pass your debts onto your children, and you are either too malicious, greedy, or stupid to realize this.

Logically, gambling at casinos is overall a losing proposition, the house will always get 5% profit in the long run, that’s how the odds are figured. The more you gamble, the more you’ll lose, period. Dealing with the government is not much different, they’ll always take their cut, but at least with casinos, you can recognize your opponent. While fools like you consider the government as your friend, and you expect for unknown reasons that you’ll somehow end up on the positive side of the ledger with the government due to your fawning devotion to it. How utterly stupid of you.

 

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2009-10-28 02:56:09

Lord how much Kool-Aid do you consume in that O-pumpkin patch of yours.

And if Hillary Clinton had become president, and was proposing much the same health care plan

She DIDN”T become president and her healthcare “plan” was vastly different than BO’s. She actually KNEW what she was talking, unlike you and BO.

You keep repeating “(like most other economists)” , that is such bullshit. Which ones? You can’t name two, never mind “most”.\

which in turn will diminish the incentives to retire WTF???

So they work them to death? Pbot, seek some fucking help. The laws of supply and demand?

More patients less doctors…mmm - lower quality more expensive RATIONED care.

You must have missed the gas lines of the 70’s. Idiot bot.

 

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2009-10-28 03:03:12

Spammed here.

 
 
 

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2009-10-28 01:19:31

if we are successful,

Who is we? Shag off with the ‘we’ crap will ya?

Obama hasn’t done anything. Ferd does not need to “assert” this, it is an empirical fact.

history will tell us whether it was positive or negative; so far it looks pretty good (i.e, the banking industry still exists).

I do NOT need to wait for history to tell me this IGIT quadrupled the national debt in 9 months of office and makes Bush look like cherry ice cream.

Hey fool, The banks have existed for thousands of years and are not going to disappear any time soon. Still there? oh I see, bank failures are at an all time high. oops.
It isn’t health care that is trivial, it is you.
YOU defend a bill that has NO provisions in it for ending the FEDERAL bias for gender discrimination. That is the fool you voted for defend him, own him.

God damn pumpkin guts for brains Pbot.

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-28 16:01:57

Calling me an idiot, pumpkin brain and so on is not an argument, doesn’t impress, bother, amuse or intimidate me (okay, the insults are occasionally creative enough to be amusing, especially Ferd’s), and is in general a waste of space. I suggest you not bother with that.

On to substance:

Quadrupled the national debt? I don’t think so:

http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/1200/why-economy-needs-spending-not-tax-cuts

As for your “empirical facts,” sorry, no, that is an assertion, and one which is not borne out by empirical facts. I refer readers to the relevant Wikipiedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

Surf down to the section dealing with the Obama presidency and you will see a fairly good list of what his administration has done so far. Ferd and Teakwoodkite say he has done “nothing.” This list speaks for itself, and all those who are interested can decide for themselves which position is correct.

 

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-28 16:05:36

Long message got spammed. Short version:

Spare the world the insults; they don’t impress me.

Spare us the assertion that Obama quadrupled the national debt; it is false:

http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/1200/why-economy-needs-spending-not-tax-cuts

And anyone who wishes to judge for him or herself whether this administration has done “nothing” should look at the relevant wikipedia page, surf down to the section on his young presidency:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama

The list of accomplishments speaks for itself.

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2009-10-28 16:50:08

wikipedia page??? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ROFL That is the most awesome citation!!!!!!!!!!! Hysterical!

I got my own wiki for ya pumpkin guts for brains Obot!

Looked the other way while his constituents Froze.
Did crooked real estate deals with convicted felons, while toasting Auchi.
Illegally used his office and that of his wife’s position to obtain said McMansion, in violation of RICO statues and many other state and federal laws.
Can not prove he is an American by birth.
He Has known communists, Marxist and socialist in his past and his current administration.
BO is an indifferent, immoral, unpatriotic, lying,lazy, misogynist, black nationalist racist.
He is a piss poor of a leader who seeks to profit on the misery of others the backs of others.

Wiki? frakin Laughable.

Comment by Ferd Berfle | 2009-10-28 16:59:31

BO is an indifferent, immoral, unpatriotic, lying,lazy, misogynist, black nationalist racist.
He is a piss poor of a leader who seeks to profit on the misery of others the backs of others.

Spot on, as usual, Teak. That One is a taker and user and his associates are no better. The only thing they give is a lot of lip service. I do wish That One and his f-ing bots would close their traps, thereby reducing a major source of carbon emissions cleverly disguised as hot air.

 
 

Comment by Ferd Berfle | 2009-10-28 17:31:41

Wikipedia is to knowledge as MTV is to music, KFC is to chicken, and your comments are to reason.

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-28 19:20:11

Assertions, assertions. Name an item on the wikipedia page that is false, or your words mean nothing.

Comment by Katmoon | 2009-10-28 20:00:21

Name an item that is true, with proof.Fact-Wikipedia is user edited; your turn, how do you verify what is there to be factual, or are you asserting it is because wikipedia “guarantees” the truthfulness and factual qualities of its entries; or is there a disclaimer noting the posts are user edited?

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-29 00:35:47

Man, that is just tiresome. The stuff listed there isn’t controversial. Do you deny that he signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009? How about the reauthorization of the State Children’s Health Insurance Program? Or repealing Bush’s hideous banning of federal spending on stem cell research? And on and on. Or getting the third woman in U.S. history, and the first Latina, appointed to the Supreme Court? Or the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act? Or the reorganization of GM? You may not approve of all these things, but please don’t pretend that they are “nothing,” or that they need to be “proven;” that is a waste of everyone’s time.

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2009-10-29 01:31:03

Man, that is just tiresome.

you deny that he signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009

So he had this agenda that he personally got behind , did the hard work of ensuring it passage. NOPE.

He may have signed ALL of these things that came across his desk but he did not left anything more than the pen to get it done.

He re-orginized GM all by his self…WTF??? mmmm seems GMAC is looking for more of MY tax dollars… tsk tsk.. Did it ever occur to you PBOT that this deal was in the works 2 years before BO got elected? You are as dense as a chrome bumper.

The Hate crimes legislation had to stuck to the ass of a defense appropration bill. BO can’t close the deal if that Hate crimes bill stood on it’s own.

It doesn’t preclude me giving credit to BO if he gets one right, but he doesn’t have it in him. Respectfully, your supporting him is your constitutionally garenteed right, which I would defend. Your blind devotion and lack of critical thinking skills isn’t.

If tires you, then go take a long rest somewhere peaceful. RIP.

(Comments wont nest below this level)
 

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-29 02:02:59

I see, Teak — so he did do stuff, it’s just not stuff you’re willing to count. You’ll give him credit but only when it’s due. And helping to stabilize the entire global banking and insurance systems in the depths of the greatest financial crisis in 80 years doesn’t count. Nah. You’d rather pretend the crisis, which reached full steam last September, before he was even elected, is in fact his fault.

And I’m the one guilty of intellectual blindness? Sure, dude, sure.

(Comments wont nest below this level)

Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2009-10-29 15:35:09

No, he did not do anything. I am going to include your reading comprehensions skills as well.

You’d rather pretend the crisis, which reached full steam last September, before he was even elected, is in fact his fault.

.
1)I do not “pretend”; that’s your reality, where BO will deliver you to Sugar Mountain…
2) The crisis has NOT reached “full steam”.
If you are of the opinion that the BO helped “stabilize the entire global banking and insurance systems “, then you are a bigger fool than most. He made things worse in real terms.

Apparently the irony is lost on you, that an anti-descrimination bill was stuck to the ass of a Defense authorization bill. So much for DADT.
OWN your faux POTUS PBOT.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Comment by Sonic Ninja Kitty | 2009-10-27 18:43:17

Here’s an article about the difference between health insurance and health care: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blumen/blumen18.1.html They are really different products. Perhaps companies should offer two different coverages, health care and health insurance. The two shouldn’t be mixed.

This birth-giving thing–isn’t this really a privilege taken by parents? Why should it be considered a favor to society to have a child? That is not what it is intrinsically about. Why should the cost of such a decision be spread among many totally unrelated people? The parents are the ones who choose that path, why isn’t the onus on them to find resources for it?

And thank you for posting that story about health insurance company profits, RRRA. Perhaps the people who are upset about these profits should target the other industries who make higher profits first.

Comment by Ellen D | 2009-10-27 19:11:51

This birth-giving thing–isn’t this really a privilege taken by parents? Why should it be considered a favor to society to have a child? That is not what it is intrinsically about. Why should the cost of such a decision be spread among many totally unrelated people? The parents are the ones who choose that path, why isn’t the onus on them to find resources for it?

Call me crazy, but I think we have a responsibility as a civilized society to look out for our pregnant women and children whoever and wherever they are.

I have had 2 Caesareans. I didn’t choose the first, the doctor said it was necessary.
After the first, I had to have the second the same way due to the chance of rupturing the scar.

So Caresarean births now cost the same as cars. I don’t think I could afford them under this current situation. I guess they are to be considered luxury items now. What’s wrong with this picture?

Comment by Lana | 2009-10-27 19:27:18

Call me crazy, but I think we have a responsibility as a civilized society to look out for our pregnant women and children whoever and wherever they are.

I totally agree, Ellen D. Thank you.

Comment by Prime Obot | 2009-10-28 01:00:39

I agree as well. So do Hillary and Obama and virtually all other Democrats. I assume you are both aware, though, that many people on this site consider such sentiments “socialist” or “Communist” and accuse Obama of harboring those evil beliefs?

 
 

Comment by Sonic Ninja Kitty | 2009-10-27 19:30:55

A C-section would maybe fall under insurance risk–it is a situation that occurs occasionally. A ‘regular’ delivery would fall under health care–it is the expected norm.

I’m just trying to think how expenses can be anticipated and categorized. I would never think to prohibit someone from having a child, but would also expect them to assume responsibility for each child they decide to bring into the world.

Comment by Lana | 2009-10-27 19:56:07

Having children is necessary to the survival of the species. That’s why, to some degree, it’s everyone’s responsibility. Those who have children assume a far larger share of the costs of raising children than simply the amount it costs to have them.

Comment by Sonic Ninja Kitty | 2009-10-27 20:08:42

Do we penalize people who can but choose not to have children–since it is necessary, that is?

Comment by Sonic Ninja Kitty | 2009-10-27 21:31:51

Plus, come to think of it, saying it is necessary for the propagation of the species sounds rather hand-maiden-ish.

 
 

Comment by NomNomNom | 2009-10-27 22:01:37

With 6.8 billion people, somehow the idea of survival of the species becoming a problem seems a little ..err… distant.
I’m not interested in government ordered cost-sharing, just paying for my own problems.
You want a kid, you pay for it.

Comment by carros | 2009-10-28 14:40:03

“You want a kid, you pay for it.”
I was just wondering how you felt about welfare and other government programs?

Comment by NomNomNom | 2009-10-29 00:26:48

I oppose corporate welfare for the financial and military industries and transnationals far more than assistance to individuals and believe this should be the focus of all economic reform, but I don’t like any of it.

Comment by carros | 2009-10-29 10:02:56

Well, then, shouldn’t those on welfare pay for their own children? They wanted the children and had them, they should pay for them.

 
 
 
 
 

Comment by Ellen D | 2009-10-29 10:45:20

insurance risk

Ah yes. There is always a risk, as an insurance company, that you might actually be called upon to deliver what people have been paying you for. Lets try to eliminate any of that risk, shall we?

 
 
 
 

Comment by tek | 2009-10-27 18:44:52

Thanks for this info, Amy.

Next big thing: Luis Gutierrez’ “immigration reform” bill. Dick Durbin today argued on the floor of the Senate that verification of legal status in employment should NOT be conducted before a new unemployments benefits bill is passed. He says illegal immigration does not matter in the issue of the tax payers of America paying another round of unemployment.

Serioiusly, this man needs to be impeached from his Senate seat. He’s not representing any American citizens. He’s turned into a lobbyist for Mexico and other Latino countries who want to send their people here illegally.

Comment by Rabble Rouser Revrend Amy | 2009-10-27 19:33:17

Are you kidding me? So all of the documentation that has been required for employment before will now go by the boards? No more Social Security card required, or driver’s license, or anything like that No proof of citizenship? Holy schmoley.

Good observations, folks - thank you.

 
 

Comment by AF catfish | 2009-10-27 18:52:12

The thing about childbirth that pisses me off is it’s the responsible middle-class people who will postpone or cancel outright plans to have a child because of insurance issues.

Higher-income people can afford it and lower-income people get subsidized. So the class divide widens itself and the middle class shrinks further.

 

Comment by hc123 | 2009-10-27 19:00:16

I am fine with rating individuals - I hate being penalized with car insurance because I am somehow being pooled statewide with reckless teenage boys.

I am not fine with “charge women more because we can”, nor am I fine with doing so without actually seeing the data. I can certainly believe younger women use more healthcare than younger men. At my company younger women cost a bit more than younger men, but once they are over 40 we get quotes going the other way.

To me insurance is to be used to pay for big ticket items like say, having a baby or being in a skiing accident. We have medical savings accounts for the run of the mill stuff like annual checkups - which only women get, I cant remember seeing one of the guys having one. Checkups come out of the MSA, after which the insurance kicks in if it is needed.

I cannot say how happy we are as a group with medical savings accounts. For us a lot of our healtcare angst went away when we set it up. Everyone gets X, can contribute Y, and has BCBS in case of a skiing accident.

All that and it made our insurance premiums extremely reasonable for EVERYONE (even moldy old me with pre-existing conditions), removed annoying copays and everyone can see whatever doctor he (hah! they dont go!) or she likes.

Comment by Obamastolemycountry | 2009-10-27 19:46:50

Ugh! I lost my internet connection right as I was posting so hopefully this is not a duplicate!

Anyway, I was going to reply about car insurance, too.

When my husband and I split up when I was 33, the insurance was due and we decided we should just get our own. Well, our premiums together for the 2 cars were about $650 per 6 months at the time. My ex, who had a DUI on his record got his insurance through the same company for $300 per 6 months. Do you know what mine ended up being? Me, who had no tickets or accidents to my name, ever? Mine was $600 every 6 months!!! I was like “Whhhaaaattt?? Why is that when he has a DUI????” I was told that it was because I was a single woman under 40 and that group is the 2nd highest risk group after teenagers! I have been pissed about that ever since that discrimination lesson! It didn’t go down when I hit 40 either!

Comment by Rabble Rouser Revrend Amy | 2009-10-27 20:09:14

You have got to be kidding - that is amazing, especially given his DUI! Dang!

And thanks, Sassy. Tupperware - who woulda thunk it?

 
 

Comment by Katmoon | 2009-10-28 06:29:47

Exactly; and to address women don’t get the same health considerations as men when patients, regardless of what reason the hospitalization occurs. I was a nurse in years previous; and I know women are often stoic in their need for pain medication.. Further in addressing child birth, a woman will bleed out if she isn’t given the proper time to allow the uterus to begin the process of contracting back to its previous state, thus the 48-72 hours to allow this natural process to occur; and allow any baby with jaundice to clear liver function tests.
I can tell you the Army hospital was fantastic when our granddaugter was born last month. My daughter-in-law was in for a full 72 after a normal birth; treated with respect, quality care and kindness. I believe this is because this is not a civilian hospital. the mindset is very different.

To actually castigate women for being women is illegal, and subject to every form of punishment the law has to offer, just as when minorities are treated the same way. C-sections are not a choice of the delivering mother, they are of a necesssity. There was a lot of attention paid to unnecessary c-sections in the 80’s. My experience is you do not put baby or mother at risk,when there is distress(in the medical sense), there is a c-section.
This attitude that there can be costs and value based on gender just screams backward, uneducated, sexists making the policy rules. Embarassing, and worse, very dangerous for women.

 
 

Comment by Sassy | 2009-10-27 19:29:39

Good research Amy!
I had seen some of the companies that showed higher profit margins than insurance. Tupperware was one…strange that! Of course getting into the weeds, one has to factor volume, etc.
As to gender, women have, in the past, lived longer than men which would increase their costs.
I don’t know if that still holds true.

 

Comment by J.J. (The P.U.M.A.) | 2009-10-27 20:04:39

Women pay more for health insurance for the same reason men pay more on life insurance and automobile insurance. It costs an insurance company more money in claims to cover those groups. Is Rabble Rouser leading a campaign to relieve males under 25 from from the burdens of clearly discriminatory auto insurance rates because some of their brothers are suffering from testosterone poisoning? Or, how about giving males a break on life insurance, even though on the average they kick the bucket 7 years before women?

My point is this. Insurance, minus the cut that the insurance company takes, is a zero sum game. Insurance is in the business of establishing risk pools. Any given person’s premium is determined by which risk pool he or she falls into. The premiums that you do not allow an insurance company to collect for political reasons in one risk pool, will need to be collected from someone else who is being over-charged.

Comment by Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy | 2009-10-27 20:28:09

“Is Rabble Rouser leading a campaign to relieve males under 25 from from the burdens of clearly discriminatory auto insurance rates because some of their brothers are suffering from testosterone poisoning?”

J.J., yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting. Ahem.

And perhaps the reason men pay more for life insurance than women isn’t because of the biological fact that they are MEN per se, but because of some of the choices they make as a group: Additional studies have been done in an attempt to study demographic mortality rates of men and women. The conclusion of such studies showed that men typically have a higher rate of dying from cancer, diabetes mellitus, heart disease, strokes, pulmonary disease and infections-hence why men pay more for life insurance. The highest and more prevalent danger now, for both sexes, is cigarette smoking. Smoking takes more than nine years off a normal life expectancy, compared to a life expectancy of a non-smoker. (http://www.insurance.com/life-insurance/price/battle-of-the-sexes-who-pays-more-for-life-insurance.aspx)

That is WILDLY different than consistently paying more because of one’s sex alone regardless of their life choices (like nutrition, exercise, etc.). That was the point of the post.

Comment by Katmoon | 2009-10-28 06:50:59

That is WILDLY different than consistently paying more because of one’s sex alone regardless of their life choices (like nutrition, exercise, etc.). That was the point of the post.

Right on RRRA; It is the same as being paid an income- paying less because of one’s gender alone is sexist and discrimninatory; opportunity to education, employment, and benefits because of ones gender alone are discriminatory.
An age group evaluation, such as for life insurance, and automobile insurance are based on not only gender but age group activities. It is not discrimination to compare the death rates in accidents by age group, ultimately to discover one group; which may happen to be of a specific gender has more “high risk” behavior than another. The rates are based on the results of these activities, not only do they intend to impress upon that particular group to be more careful and attentive(in the driving example) but also pay out to those injured by that group.
Having a baby is not a “high risk behavior”, it is a gender specific ability, that is natural and that carries specific risks only in respect to the physical nature of the very process of birth and the vulnerability of both mother and child in pre-birth timeframes relating to the environment and the birth process. It is a temporary state, it is only risking the mother and child. This is not a pedestrian or carload of people that a “risk” classified driver can kill.

I personally find this need to further dehumanize women the most distasteful I have seen in a long time. It is a devaluing of human life, based purely on gender, IMHO.

 
 
 

Comment by NomNomNom | 2009-10-27 21:42:27

the link Insurers actually make in profits? does not state from where their figures come.
This one http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/08/05/are-health-insurers-making-too-much-money/ regarding some claims made by the industry earlier in the year does. Their profits are astronomical, and they are increasing.

Comment by Rabble Rouser Reverend Amy | 2009-10-27 21:59:02

It is surprising that the AP article doesn’t provide links. Thanks for this one. Interesting numbers. Like I said, I am no apologist for insurers - not by a long shot. But their place in the list of industries was unexpected to me.

 
 

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Comment by TeakWoodKite | 2009-10-28 01:28:35

Rev. Amy an excellent post. Thank you for it.

I do not understand why only eleven states make this illegal. It worse than a poll tax.

I am so mad I want to puke, when I read about the sterilization. The muppets who wrote that letter need to hauled out on a firing line..well you get my drift…

. (count to ten kite).

 

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Comment by Katmoon | 2009-10-28 06:52:14

Lost post, e-mail sent.

 

Comment by Sassy | 2009-10-28 10:19:20

I am OT and we have covered the Fox news story well, but since you have been crunching numbers Amy, a new poll from yesterday:
Fox is rated as “credible” by 46% of whites, 11% Latinos, and 5% blacks. WOWEE!

 

Comment by tango | 2009-10-28 11:18:33

Here is the rest of the story regarding Peggy Robertson:

“She was turned down because she had given birth by Caesarean section. Having the operation once increases the odds that it will be performed again, and if she became pregnant and needed another Caesarean, Golden Rule did not want to pay for it. A letter from the company explained that if she had been sterilized after the Caesarean, or if she were over 40 and had given birth two or more years before applying, she might have qualified.

In a letter to Ms. Robertson, Golden Rule, which sells individual policies in 30 states, said it would insure a woman who had had a Caesarean only if it could exclude paying for another one for three years. But in Colorado, such exclusions are considered discriminatory and are forbidden, so Golden Rule simply rejects women who have had the surgery, unless they have been sterilized or meet the company’s age requirements…

Now this is the kicker– ***Ms. Robertson had been shopping around for individual health insurance, the kind that people buy on their own. She already had insurance but was looking for a better rate. After being rejected by Golden Rule, she kept her existing coverage.***

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2343391/replies?c=39

 

Comment by elaine | 2009-10-29 04:30:34

Don’t the French charge everyone the same amount? The equivalent of $150?

 

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