Comments on: America’s Cuba Policy is the “Edsel” of the US Foreign Policy Portfolio http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/ Sun, 27 May 2012 09:11:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4 By: Ferd Berfle http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179701 Ferd Berfle Sat, 11 Apr 2009 23:44:46 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179701 I get it now. I think you're right. I get it now. I think you’re right.

]]> By: rw http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179697 rw Sat, 11 Apr 2009 23:42:30 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179697 Maybe my post was not clear, the question is not to lift or not, the question is "how" and "when" and to balance the expectations. Maybe my post was not clear, the question is not to lift or not, the question is “how” and “when” and to balance the expectations.

]]> By: Elizabeth http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179314 Elizabeth Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:21:42 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179314 I'm not sure what commodity you are referring to in propping up the economy of the former USSR, but one major reason for its downfall was collapsing oil prices. The inflexibility of their planned economy could not cope with the mid 1980s price shock spurred by vastly ramped up Middle Eastern production. This in turn led to an inability to purchase grain on the world market and a decision to go after Middle Eastern oil fields forcibly with Afghanistan as the starting point (a war significant amounts of oil revenues were also run through to start). The empire was fortunate to have enjoyed artificially high prices for as long as it lasted, but it was always a debt carried out on borrowed time. Had the shock occurred 10 or 20 years earlier combined with a war and embargo, it would have pushed the Union into bankruptcy at that point as well. I’m not sure what commodity you are referring to in propping up the economy of the former USSR, but one major reason for its downfall was collapsing oil prices. The inflexibility of their planned economy could not cope with the mid 1980s price shock spurred by vastly ramped up Middle Eastern production. This in turn led to an inability to purchase grain on the world market and a decision to go after Middle Eastern oil fields forcibly with Afghanistan as the starting point (a war significant amounts of oil revenues were also run through to start).

The empire was fortunate to have enjoyed artificially high prices for as long as it lasted, but it was always a debt carried out on borrowed time. Had the shock occurred 10 or 20 years earlier combined with a war and embargo, it would have pushed the Union into bankruptcy at that point as well.

]]> By: Ferd Berfle http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179241 Ferd Berfle Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:15:37 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179241 <blockquote>lifting it isn’t necessarily going to make Cuba more democratic or lift it out of poverty </blockquote> We can't know that until we make an attempt. Our current policy has certainly done no good and that is the measure of any endeavor--does it work?

lifting it isn’t necessarily going to make Cuba more democratic or lift it out of poverty

We can’t know that until we make an attempt. Our current policy has certainly done no good and that is the measure of any endeavor–does it work?

]]> By: rw http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179230 rw Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:10:11 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179230 US govt stance might be to ensure a "smooth" transition in US policy toward Cuba by waiting for Castro to pass on. Florida contingent might be paleolithic, but it is strong financially, legally, etc., and prepared to act, in the US and on the island. Other Lat. Am. lefties (Chavez, Carrera, Ortega and to a lesser degree Morales, dark eyed Lula, Kirchner, are ready to propagandize any sign of weakness in US Cuban policy and its outcome. For too long US has neglected their relations with their neighbors south of the border (excepting Mex, Col.), allowing other powers to move in: EU, China - who have trade and tourism with Cuba as well. Despite the embargo, US is one of Cuba's top exporters, lifting it isn't necessarily going to make Cuba more democratic or lift it out of poverty - the EU has been trying to do this for over a decade - unless some see the Florida contingent playing a key role. Perhaps best for US to examine not just it policy toward Cuba, but toward the whole region. US govt stance might be to ensure a “smooth” transition in US policy toward Cuba by waiting for Castro to pass on.

Florida contingent might be paleolithic, but it is strong financially, legally, etc., and prepared to act, in the US and on the island. Other Lat. Am. lefties (Chavez, Carrera, Ortega and to a lesser degree Morales, dark eyed Lula, Kirchner, are ready to propagandize any sign of weakness in US Cuban policy and its outcome. For too long US has neglected their relations with their neighbors south of the border (excepting Mex, Col.), allowing other powers to move in: EU, China – who have trade and tourism with Cuba as well.

Despite the embargo, US is one of Cuba’s top exporters, lifting it isn’t necessarily going to make Cuba more democratic or lift it out of poverty – the EU has been trying to do this for over a decade – unless some see the Florida contingent playing a key role. Perhaps best for US to examine not just it policy toward Cuba, but toward the whole region.

]]> By: James Guglielmino http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179227 James Guglielmino Sat, 11 Apr 2009 16:09:40 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179227 Oh, so the right of free speech should be thrown out because some ass holes make fools of themselves? I don't think that is really a very good idea, do you? What do you think of barring people who defame Mohammed? While I am at it, let's talk a little more about Obama NOT jumping in and changing the policy re: Cuba. While the rage that has always dominated the discourse on opening relations with Cuba is somewhat abated, it remains. Witness Senator Martinez and if you really want to open up relations with Cuba email or call or write the Senator. There remains a significant and still powerful resistance to warming relations with Cuba. Obama is a politician and has only a limited amount of support in which to draw from We have a financial crisis that he is trying to deal with, two wars and the BOW that you people here seem to have some peculiar fascination with...Could it be that your energies might just be better used by campaigning in some meaningful way to change Cuban policy? Just wondering. Gug Oh, so the right of free speech should be thrown out because some ass holes make fools of themselves? I don’t think that is really a very good idea, do you? What do you think of barring people who defame Mohammed?
While I am at it, let’s talk a little more about Obama NOT jumping in and changing the policy re: Cuba. While the rage that has always dominated the discourse on opening relations with Cuba is somewhat abated, it remains. Witness Senator Martinez and if you really want to open up relations with Cuba email or call or write the Senator. There remains a significant and still powerful resistance to warming relations with Cuba. Obama is a politician and has only a limited amount of support in which to draw from We have a financial crisis that he is trying to deal with, two wars and the BOW that you people here seem to have some peculiar fascination with…Could it be that your energies might just be better used by campaigning in some meaningful way to change Cuban policy? Just wondering.
Gug

]]> By: James Guglielmino http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179191 James Guglielmino Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:32:56 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179191 In my view, doing business with the former Soviet Union was extraordinarily important in it imploding. Communism is a demonstrably *failed* form of government but how is it judged that way? It is judged *failed* by comparison to American capitalism. The 180 degree difference between a system that allows the self fulfillment of profiting from your own endeavors becomes brilliantly obvious when put into juxtaposition with Communism. Removing the really stupid Cuban policy of the last more than half a century will do exactly that. In my view, doing business with the former Soviet Union was extraordinarily important in it imploding. Communism is a demonstrably *failed* form of government but how is it judged that way? It is judged *failed* by comparison to American capitalism. The 180 degree difference between a system that allows the self fulfillment of profiting from your own endeavors becomes brilliantly obvious when put into juxtaposition with Communism. Removing the really stupid Cuban policy of the last more than half a century will do exactly that.

]]> By: mountainaires http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179086 mountainaires Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:11:05 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179086 When the Sec/State went to China, it wasn't to demand China recognize human rights--for women or men--it was to beg China to continue shoring up our massive debt. Thanks so much for this discussion Steve; it is as Rothkopf says: ABSURD. For so many reasons. Not the least of which is trade for US farm exports, which farmers need these days. Barack Obama has turned out to be a bigger shock to the system than Bush. Every single thing Obama said during the campaign has turned out to be a lie. Iraq, FISA, Cuba, Telecom Immunity, you name it, he's violated his own statements on it. He's now going to fund another $84 Billion on Iraq under a policy he voted against while a Senator--Bush's policy. He's using "state secrets" to protect telecoms who violated the law under Bush, so he can continue to violate Americans' constitutional rights. He's now hinting that we may have to delay troop withdrawals from Iraq. He's protecting Yoo, Bybee and the torturers. He's looting the treasury to pay off banksters. I am just disgusted, completely disgusted. But, I'm glad people like Clemons, Sweig and Rothkopf are fighting the good fight out there every day in discussion, dialogue and debate, challenging these absurd policies with Obama. So, thanks, for fighting the good fight on our behalf. When the Sec/State went to China, it wasn’t to demand China recognize human rights–for women or men–it was to beg China to continue shoring up our massive debt.

Thanks so much for this discussion Steve; it is as Rothkopf says: ABSURD. For so many reasons.

Not the least of which is trade for US farm exports, which farmers need these days.

Barack Obama has turned out to be a bigger shock to the system than Bush. Every single thing Obama said during the campaign has turned out to be a lie.

Iraq, FISA, Cuba, Telecom Immunity, you name it, he’s violated his own statements on it. He’s now going to fund another $84 Billion on Iraq under a policy he voted against while a Senator–Bush’s policy. He’s using “state secrets” to protect telecoms who violated the law under Bush, so he can continue to violate Americans’ constitutional rights. He’s now hinting that we may have to delay troop withdrawals from Iraq. He’s protecting Yoo, Bybee and the torturers. He’s looting the treasury to pay off banksters.

I am just disgusted, completely disgusted. But, I’m glad people like Clemons, Sweig and Rothkopf are fighting the good fight out there every day in discussion, dialogue and debate, challenging these absurd policies with Obama. So, thanks, for fighting the good fight on our behalf.

]]> By: Elizabeth http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179081 Elizabeth Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:07:44 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179081 Castro needs to initiate a policy of economic reforms before trade and investment will potentially undermine Cuban communism. Doing business with the former Soviet Union didn't bring about its collapse and I would expect approximately the same result in this case. Although at least Cuba can play the tourist card.. But Obama is, uh, naturally, against the trade embargo when speaking to Cuban-Americans and argues he would maintain it to provide a very important 'inducement for change and democracy ??' Yes, does that sound ridiculous or does it sound ludicrous? And I thought the real effect of denying access to American principles, culture, goods, etc was just to keep Cubans poor and isolated? Castro needs to initiate a policy of economic reforms before trade and investment will potentially undermine Cuban communism. Doing business with the former Soviet Union didn’t bring about its collapse and I would expect approximately the same result in this case. Although at least Cuba can play the tourist card..

But Obama is, uh, naturally, against the trade embargo when speaking to Cuban-Americans and argues he would maintain it to provide a very important ‘inducement for change and democracy ??’
Yes, does that sound ridiculous or does it sound ludicrous?

And I thought the real effect of denying access to American principles, culture, goods, etc was just to keep Cubans poor and isolated?

]]> By: Julia http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1179007 Julia Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:47:33 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1179007 If we’re excluding the rights of women, then I suppose the statement is correct too. Unfortunately no one country has barred any misogynistic musician because of their lyrics.And they should do it. If we’re excluding the rights of women, then I suppose the statement is correct too. Unfortunately no one country has barred any misogynistic musician because of their lyrics.And they should do it.

]]> By: JozefAL http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1178862 JozefAL Sat, 11 Apr 2009 06:28:35 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1178862 <em>There is not one government represented at this Summit whose population would willingly accept the kind of restrictions on their civil, political and human rights that are commonplace in Cuba - and that remain commonplace.</em> Well, if they're excluding the rights of LGBT persons, then I suppose the statement is correct. Unfortunately, nearly every English-speaking government in the Caribbean, with Jamaica and the Bahamas at the forefront, have absolutely reprehensible attitudes towards the LGBT community. It was about 2 years ago that the Bahamas came under fire for its refusal to allow an LGBT cruise to dock, and, of course, the Jamaican government wholeheartedly supported the Sandals resort's actions barring same-sex couples (the Jamaican gov't also has given support to some of the most homophobic musicians, and criticized British actions barring those artists from entering the UK because of homophobic lyrics). Several other Caribbean countries, while claiming to be gay-friendly, have gone out of their way to post "advisories" to LGBT tourists on "proper" behavior when visiting their countries. There is not one government represented at this Summit whose population would willingly accept the kind of restrictions on their civil, political and human rights that are commonplace in Cuba – and that remain commonplace.

Well, if they’re excluding the rights of LGBT persons, then I suppose the statement is correct. Unfortunately, nearly every English-speaking government in the Caribbean, with Jamaica and the Bahamas at the forefront, have absolutely reprehensible attitudes towards the LGBT community. It was about 2 years ago that the Bahamas came under fire for its refusal to allow an LGBT cruise to dock, and, of course, the Jamaican government wholeheartedly supported the Sandals resort’s actions barring same-sex couples (the Jamaican gov’t also has given support to some of the most homophobic musicians, and criticized British actions barring those artists from entering the UK because of homophobic lyrics). Several other Caribbean countries, while claiming to be gay-friendly, have gone out of their way to post “advisories” to LGBT tourists on “proper” behavior when visiting their countries.

]]> By: Ferd Berfle http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1178486 Ferd Berfle Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:56:47 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1178486 <blockquote>I just don’t get this multi decade old policy when we we continue to trade with other evil regimes.</blockquote> I agree. There are much more evil regimes out there that we do business with daily. The policy has failed, if it ever worked at all. A little trade would more than likely go a long way towards promoting change in Cuba. It certainly couldn't hurt given that 50 years of this policy hasn't done a thing to create any change.

I just don’t get this multi decade old policy when we we continue to trade with other evil regimes.

I agree. There are much more evil regimes out there that we do business with daily. The policy has failed, if it ever worked at all. A little trade would more than likely go a long way towards promoting change in Cuba. It certainly couldn’t hurt given that 50 years of this policy hasn’t done a thing to create any change.

]]> By: KmX http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/20853/americas-cuba-policy-is-the-edsel-of-the-us-foreign-policy-portfolio/#comment-1178483 KmX Sat, 11 Apr 2009 00:49:34 +0000 http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/?p=20853#comment-1178483 THis is one issue I agree with Obama. The embargo did nothing to defeat Castro. It's about time we lift that embargo and let capitalism and all the products of it flood that island. Only then will the people get a true taste of freedom that Castro would not be able to contain. We trade with communist China, why not CUba. I just don't get this multi decade old policy when we we continue to trade with other evil regimes. THis is one issue I agree with Obama. The embargo did nothing to defeat Castro. It’s about time we lift that embargo and let capitalism and all the products of it flood that island. Only then will the people get a true taste of freedom that Castro would not be able to contain. We trade with communist China, why not CUba.

I just don’t get this multi decade old policy when we we continue to trade with other evil regimes.

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