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Torture Works, So Does Pedophilia

By Larry Johnson on April 22, 2009 at 2:00 AM in Current Affairs

(bumped up from Tuesday afternoon)

Nothing like sex with a young child to provide full gratification. Disgusted? (I hope so.) It does not matter whether or not sex with a minor is pleasing or fulfilling. It is wrong and it is a crime. So then why in the hell are we allowing the baying voices of Bush supporters and some on the right to insist, without a shred of empirical evidence, that “torture” works. For starters it does not matter whether it “works.” It is illegal and inhuman.

But let’s go with the claim that it does work. Why should we believe that? Because Dick Cheney says it works.

How could Dick Cheney be wrong? Isn’t he the one that insisted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? (whoops, okay, he missed that one). Isn’t he the one who insisted Iraqi intelligence agents were meeting with Al Qaeda in Praque? (another dry hole). And he continues to be adamant that Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden were in league together even though the CIA repeatedly has said, no, not so. So, just because Dick Cheney says “it is so,” count me a skeptic. His truth track record sucks.

The “torture” works argument is wrong and misleading on many levels.

For starters, torture is illegal under any circumstances. That’s the law. The convention against torture, which the U.S. signed and the Senate approved, stipulates:

the term “torture” means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions. . . .

No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . .

An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

What is it about English that the torture advocates do not understand? It does not matter a good goddamn whether it is effective or not. It is illegal. Period. No exceptions.

Although the law exists it does not prevent governments and people from engaging in such conduct. Let’s review the countries that have used torture and excused its use by claiming they needed to protect the homeland or the motherland or the fatherland–Nazi Germany, Stalinist Soviet Union, Castro’s Cuba, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, Egypt, Pakistan . . . Beginning to get the picture.

And now the supporters of George Bush want to justify torture because “we’re protecting America?” Horseshit!! Excusing illegal behavior because it benefits us or is perceived to benefit us does not make it right.

This line of argument also assumes, falsely, that the option is either torture or no information. But we do not have to assume anything on this front. We have the actual experience and testimony of FBI Agents–Dan Coleman, Jack Cloonan, Ali Soufan and Steve Gaudin–who have interrogated successfully terrorist suspects. As Jane Mayer reports in her book, The Dark Side, Soufan and Gaudin were among the first to question Zubayda. Mayer writes:

Both believed progress was being made using the traditional “rapport-building” techniques of questioning. They sent back early cables describing Zubayda as revealing inside details of the attacks on New York and Washington, including the nickname of its central planner, “Mukhtar,” who was identified as Khali Sheikh Mohammed. This tidbit, later trumpeted by the Bush Administration as a significant breakthrough, actually only confirmed information previously received but inadequately processed by the CIA in the months before the attacks. The 9/11 Commission report documents this.

The FBI does not have to imagine preventing an attack. Nope, they actually disrupted a plot to blow up the Lincoln and Holland tunnels in New York City thanks to an informant. Did not have to waterboard or sleep deprive a soul.

We need to worry as well about the effect of torture on those who are the “givers.” We need to pay special attention to the psychological effect. The people who actually apply the torture have experienced psychological trauma. Even the dreaded, supposedly heartless Nazis could not escape this phenomena. German soldiers suffered significant psychological harm after participating in the mass shootings of civilians, whose bodies were stacked in pits. That’s why the masters of the Holocaust switch to using gas to murder Jewish men, women and children. It was more impersonal and the Germans did not have to see the immediate aftermath of their work. They used other Jewish prisoners to haul out the bodies.

If you are 35 or younger you probably have no effective memory of the Cold War. Too bad. I spent most of my adult life supporting our Government’s policies to confront the spread of communism and tyranny. We opposed countries like the Soviet Union and Cuba who routinely engaged in torture using the excuse that they were rooting out “enemies of the state.” Now I have lived log enough to witness people who once opposed the abuses of tyrannical states justify the methods of those states because we want to believe that it makes us safe. It matters not that such a belief is predicated on TV shows like 24 and mindless fantasies penned by guys like Vince Flynn, it has become truth by virtue of repetition.

Just a reminder, no matter how many times Dick Cheney insisted that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and Saddam was backing and supporting Bin Laden he was at best delusional or committed to a lie. Regardless, those who press the argument that “torture works” is a pernicious lie that threatens the very foundation of our nation.

  • Tricia Spiegel

    Excellent post. Thank you, Larry. It will be interesting to see what Obama’s statement today really means–whether some of our own may be held accountable after all.

    • PamFlorida

      Let’s not forget the Senators and Congressmen (Dems & Repubs) who were privy to, and signed on or did not oppose, these abusive interrogation methods.
      Congress is as guilty as the Bush Administration.

      • NoBamaNoWay

        exactly; that’s why i can’t get all worked up about prosecuting BushCo; are we going to prosecute half of the government – both parties and all three branches? somehow i doubt it.

  • Peggy Sue

    Bravo, Larry!

    • Ladydawnelle

      I second that Peggy

  • Linda Anselmi

    Thank you Larry. Thank you for this post.

    • mary

      Yes. It can only be the post of a man with integrity and honor….A real American!

  • donjo

    Since when did being illegal stop anyone in our government from doing anything they damn well pleased?

    • donjo

      I should have made it illegal, immoral, impeachable or most any other word beginning with “im.”

      • http://nativeamericansagainstobama.wordpress.com/ timepassages

        Well Said! I been gone a while looks like not much has changed!

        • TeakwoodKite

          Hey Time Passages, wabang or ihinhanna?

    • tminu

      If I KNEW for a fact that someone was able to spare my children from a lethal threat, I’d rip off their body parts to save my kids. But that’s just me.

  • getfitnow

    I believe BO’s administration has fallen way short in this regard. Crimes committed need to be prosecuted. I am sick of the stage craft and half stepping for politics’ sake. There are war criminals from the last administration. Just like the bailouts–trying to save companies that need to reorganize or go. Nothing is going to change until the crooks have to anwser for their crimes. Leadership and transparency–nowhere to be found.

    • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

      well lets start w the Fraud in Chief and go from there.

    • PamFlorida

      Perhaps an investigation and prosecution will reveal the complicity of some “sacred cow” Dems. And is it possible that this Administration’s reluctance to proceed belies their desire to leave that option open secretely?

    • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

      I think it’s useless grandstanding. First of all, how are you going to prosecute the people who were simply carrying out orders from above? You cannot. If that is done, then no CIA, FBI, or soldier will be able to carry out an order without fear of some future administration’s retroactive second guessing.

      If you go after the big fish, they will surely exculpate themselves somehow. These people are complete pros at passing the hot potatoes. They will only lead you to the smaller fish again. Congress, as usual, missed the boat. Forget it and move on.

      Anyway, this is just a political move, bringing it out at this exact time. It’s just something to make our Dear Leader look tough after getting totally owned in Latin America.

      • Patrick Walker

        That’s crap, and I think you know it.

        This torture was being performed by educated people who are supposed to know better.

        Look around. It’s everywhere.

        If you are an autoworker with a high school diploma making an honest living, you get punished even if your problems are the result of someone else’s decisions. Your contracts are not inviolate; you lose your benefits, and after restructuring in Chapter 11, most likely your pension will be gone along with most of your other benefits.

        But if you are a banker with half the alphabet after your name and the fancy degress to go with it, you get bailed out when you f*cked everything up for everyone. Your contracts are as sacred as Hindu cows and woe to those who question your new Lear jet.

        Same with all this torture business.

        If you are a lowly National Guard grunt who stripped people down, kept prisoners awake (under orders), and forced them to make human pyramids, you get thrown in the klink making and now make small rocks out of bigger rocks.

        But if you come out of college and into the CIA with a degree, you can waterboard the living sh*t out of people and get off scott free.

        That’s seems to be the message the Obama administration is sending.

        That’s the story here that a lot of people are missing. There are obvious double-standards being applied depending on one’s “education” (aka class) level. Look to the War on Drugs to see even starker examples.

        • Patrick Walker

          I should also add that the excuse of “following orders” went the way of the dodo at Nuremburg.

      • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

        I don’t think it’s crap otherwise I wouldn’t have said it. This issue has been around a long time–where were the charges the minute the first offense was discovered? You can’t let precedent be set repeatedly and then change your mind. And do you charge the bug man same as the water boarder? Apparently they are both ‘torture’. The lawyers are the only one who will profit from this. It’s not fair or restitutive, it just is. We know what Obama will do, anyway–nothing.

        • TeakwoodKite

          Patrick Walker and Sonic Ninja Kitty, the interesting thing for me is, you are both right.

  • Animal Control

    At the end of the day the argument that “torture works” is a lie that threatens the very foundation of our nation.

    Can it possible be any clearer!

    • tminu

      This is a simpleton approach. If you were faced with protecting your own, you would do what’s required to protect them.
      Meanwhile, the Iranians are using REAL torture on Roxan Sebari and al Qaeda is still sawing off heads. Their differential of torture versus no torture is the number of saw strokes.

      • JozefAL

        So, basically you have no problem with the US acting like Iran? I see.
        Well, that tells me where your values lie.
        (I’d also point out that “sawing off heads” doesn’t really count as “torture”. Once you’ve sawed off someone’s head, they’re of absolutely no use to you. And, um, really is there a difference between having your head sawed off and having it chopped off via guillotine or ax? Decapitation via the latter two methods was still a legal method of execution in a number of Western countries until the middle of the 20th century.)

  • D.K. Jamal

    Nothing like sex with a young child to provide full gratification. Disgusted? (I hope so.) It does not matter whether or not sex with a minor is pleasing or fulfilling. It is wrong and it is a crime.

    What a stupid analogy. Pedophilia does not work. It destroys lives, it doesn’t save them.

    You may argue that the harsh interrogation techniques are torture, that they are wrong, that they are illegal (I disagree on counts one and three), but to argue that they didn’t work is not true. It is an inconvenient truth that the not-as-harsh-as-adertised techniques employed by the CIA (at the LEGAL behest of the White House and Republicans AND Democrats in Congress incidentally) were plainly effective in allowing CIA to identify and partially dismantle al-Qaeda. That’s simply a fact that the left-wing would like to ignore.

    Wrong? Possibly. Illegal? Not when it was okayed by the executive and legislative branches. Torture? Please, it wasn’t the Holocaust. Ineffective? In your dreams, Larry.

    • donjo

      Sorry, but you have absolutely zero, zip, nada proof that torture works – except on “24.” Plus how can any “behests” by congress or any one else overide THE GODDAMNED LAW?

      • Animal Control

        THE GODDAMNED LAW?

        Bingo!

      • D.K. Jamal

        Well, you’re (sort of) right since the relatively mild tactics employed the hardworking men and women of the CIA don’t even amount to torture in the first place.

        But more to the point, every CIA agent and official knows that the enhanced interrogation tactics at issue today directly led to the arrests of heretofore free top-ranking al-Qaeda leaders, and the divulging of at least 50% of American knowledge of al-Qaeda structure and plans. This has been detailed in speeches and reports from the Justice Department, the CIA and executive branch since 2006. Verifiable fact, no matter how much you don’t want to admit.

        Again, you can argue that these tactics are wrong, or that they amount torture. That’s a worthy debate. But they worked. That’s a fact well-known throughout Washington.

        • TeakwoodKite

          I would rather perish as a kite than a tangled ball of string. Not in my name thank you.

          The ends DO NOT justify the means.

          Can you please tell me why it was the FBI agents Coleen Rowley Mr. Willaims dire warnings were ignored? Did they torture to get the info? Whats that you say?

          Torture is the last refuge of scoundrels.

    • CentralMass

      Do have details on how they “worked”?

      • shadow

        http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

        CNSNews.com
        CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles
        Tuesday, April 21, 2009
        By Terence P. Jeffrey, Editor-in-Chief

        Khalid Sheik Mohammad, a top al Qaeda leader who divulged information — after being waterboarded — that allowed the U.S. government to stop a planned terrorist attack on Los Angeles.
        (CNSNews.com) – The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) — including the use of waterboarding — caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

        Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

        According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack — which KSM called the “Second Wave”– planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”

        KSM was the mastermind of the first “hijacked-airliner” attacks on the United States, which struck the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Northern Virginia on Sept. 11, 2001.

        After KSM was captured by the United States, he was not initially cooperative with CIA interrogators. Nor was another top al Qaeda leader named Zubaydah. KSM, Zubaydah, and a third terrorist named Nashiri were the only three persons ever subjected to waterboarding by the CIA. (Additional terrorist detainees were subjected to other “enhanced techniques” that included slapping, sleep deprivation, dietary limitations, and temporary confinement to small spaces — but not to water-boarding.)

        • ces

          CNSN News is under the direction of the Media Research Center, a right wing-biased organization.

          Hardly a reliable source.

          • tminu

            ugh, as if MSNBC would cover it

            Let Obama declassify ALL the CIA memos then as Cheney has proposed to the chickenshit.

        • elise

          Shadow, thanks for the link. I read the entire story and all of the information is based on DOJ memos until the very last by an unidentified CIA spokesperson. It’s a curiously worded statement:

          “A CIA spokesman confirmed to CNSNews.com today that the CIA stands by the factual assertions made here.”

          • shadow

            YW, Elise. Here’s another interesting article that just came out.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=1&hp

            Banned Techniques Yielded ‘High Value Information,’ Memo Says

            Article Tools Sponsored By
            By PETER BAKER
            Published: April 21, 2009

            WASHINGTON – President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

            “High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

            Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture. Among other things, the Bush administration memos revealed that two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times.

            Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

            “I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”

            • Patrick Walker

              Wonder if it’s as “high value” as the information they got from Chalabi, or the intelligence that Atta met with Iraqi agents in Prague…

              … I hope people don’t believe government spokesmen become honestly overnight do they once their party is in power?

              Just becasue Blair says it, doesn’t make it true. I can write myself a cheque for a billion dollars but doesn’t make it have value. If I did, I’d be a Wall Street banker…

              People everywhere, both in the public and private sectors, lie and no one holds them to account. They can lie with impunity.

              • Patrick Walker

                It should also be noted that Blair lied to Congress twice and disobeyed a direct order from President Clinton when it came to dealings with Suharto and Indoneisa back during the ’97 Asian financial crisis.

                A crisis that, showing how small the Washington and CFR is, Geithner misdiagnosed to the detriment of millions of Asians.

    • CentralMass

      The republicans do seem to have experts on both topics.

  • PO’dVet

    I couldn’t agree more Larry. But I don’t expect anyone to be charged with anything. If anything I’d be expecting bogus reports supporting claims that information derived from torture has stopped “credible threats” to be leaked from this administration. Just another step on Obama’s dream trip to being able to torture any who disagree with him. Hell I can already hear the reports on MSNBC…VFW hall raided, dozens arrested, halting far right plot to destroy the black culture by attacking the BET Awards ceremony….

    Might sound a bit far fetched, but then again…who could have predicted a few months ago that Obama would try to expand on the powers that W stole from Congress…

  • http://noquarterusa.net/ SusanUnPC

    We need to recoin the acronym NAMBLA to fit the Neocons … but i can’t think of what :) :)

  • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

    Well if they are going to prosecute people than that will rid Congress of quite a few Democrats too who signed off on all of this and/or said nothing.

    • olivia1998

      You are so right. Obama may think he’ll be in power for ever but……that’s not true. We know he’s lied already. What tangled web we do weave when we set out to deceive

  • Seattle Moss

    I have only two words today….

    National Suicide..

    On all fronts!!!

    • Paula Revere

      Good one Seattle!!!

    • NoBamaNoWay

      national suicide if we do or don’t torture? seems like were damned if we do, damned if we don’t (assuming torture even works). i don’t really care if america survives if we destroy every decent thing it supposedly stood for.

      reminds of the (true?) story of some british ship that sank and the captain and some of the crew were on a life-boat, and one guy was getting really sick and he told the other people that when he died they could eat his body. but the captain said no; they lived as civilized men and they would die as civilized men.

      • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

        Agreed, NoBamaNoWay.

        If we concur as a society that torture works (or works well enough), then, ok, incorporate that into our laws. As is stands, torture is against the law. So the larger question is do we select which laws we apply to ourselves? No. We are not a banana republic–we are a civilized nation.

        • Ladydawnelle

          We are not a banana republic–we are a civilized nation.

        • tminu

          such piety flies out the window when you are truly threatened.

          • Ulysses S. Moss

            such piety flies out the window when you are truly threatened.

            Rules don’t apply if your life is on the line..
            The Law of Nature!

            • andrew jackson 191

              Perhaps millions of lives were saved because Truman had the balls to drop the bombs. Millions of lives might have been saved if Johnson had the balls to warn N. Viet Nam that Hanoi would be obliterated unless they ceased hostilities, and then carried through with the threat if they didn’t. Overwhelming strength is always the best deterrent, and more lives are saved when hostilities never start in the face of such strength, while countless lives are lost in small and slow half-hearted involvements. The surge worked because it sent the signal that we were in it for keeps. Tepid attitudes encourage the enemy. Domestic peace movements, protests, and a lack of unified ruthless resolve, give our enemies hope that they can defeat us in the world of popular sentiment, because they know they could never defeat us on the battle field. Peacenicks and pacifists have caused wars to start that never should have, and caused many wars to linger longer, cause more destruction, kill more people, and create ambiguity for the reasons and justifications for the conflict to happen in the first place. The best war is one that never happens, and the second best is the one that is rapidly determined. Overwhelming power and the unreserved promise to use it makes both of those wars a sure thing.

              Ironically, having a vast nuclear deterrent insures that we may never have to use it. Letting our enemies BELIEVE that we will have no restraints, show no mercy, and give No Quarter to our enemies, is they best way to assure that we will NOT have to resort to torture. SO WHY TELL THE WORLD THAT WE’RE SUCH PANSIES THAT WE’RE NOT WILLING TO RESORT TO BRUTALITY IN OUR DEFENSE??? You’re not going to win many card games if you always show your opponent your hand. When you advertise your weaknesses isn’t it reasonable to assume that our enemies will expliot them? And I hate to break the bad news, but we DO HAVE ENEMIES!!!!!!

              • JozefAL

                Your very first sentence is completely hypothetical. There is NO WAY to know how many lives were saved because Truman murdered several hundred thousands of Japanese civilians (not just in the immediate bombing raids but also in the ensuing decades thanks to the effects of radiation). Yes, yes, all the “experts” love to pull the “Japanese would fight to the last man” hypothesis, but we cannot possibly know that for sure. Truman could have just as easily pushed Moscow into attacking the Home Islands–which would’ve made turning over the Kurile Islands and southern Sakhalin to the Russians despite their lack of military action. (Incidentally, there is a line of thought that Truman used the bombs more as a warning to the Soviets. Of course, Truman and most US intelligence was taken aback when the Soviets tested their own bomb.)
                As to your second sentence, sorry, but Southeast Asia was NOT worth starting WWIII. Both Russia AND China had nuclear arsenals, and LBJ would’ve seen Saigon going up in a mushroom cloud if he’d dropped a nuke on Hanoi. (More to the point, China could’ve sent a few nukes to hit US military bases in South Korea, Okinawa and the Philippines.)
                As to your whole diatribe against the peace movement, you’re beyond reprehensible. When the US has fought FOR a reason (such as defending the United States–as in WWII), there’s been very little pacifism. Unfortunately, Vietnam was NOT a case of being “for” the US. That was a sorry ass little civil war that this country should have never been involved with. And, the “war” in Iraq should have never been started. WE HAD NO FUCKING BUSINESS INVADING IRAQ! There is NOTHING to excuse it. If you dare defend Bush’s Adventurism, you prove your ignorance. Hard as it is to believe, Saddam was, perhaps, our BEST ally against al-Qaeda (but Saddam had tried to kill Dubya’s daddy once upon a time, and Dubya had to prove he was a good son). Saddam, for all his preening, was an ardent secular nationalist (he would employ Islam when it suited him, but when the Islamists got “uppity”, he showed them their place). Because of Dubya’s incompetence, Iraq became the terror front that we had been trying to prevent. (Of course, the other incompetents in the Dubya Administration who wanted to fight on the cheap didn’t help matters. They truly were naive enough to believe that the Iraqis wanted to be “liberated” and would welcome the US with open arms. The problem, of course, was that the Iraqis were only united because Saddam controlled them. It was just the same in Yugoslavia: Tito was the reason the various nationalities and ethnic groups stayed together; once he died, the country fell apart in little more than a decade.)
                As for your final paragraph, I consider that to be little more than the mindset of common schoolyard bullying.

                • andrew jackson 191

                  It’s the very sentiments in my post, and the willingness to defend them, that has given you the possibility to exist and post dilusional drivel from the Pollyanna little sandbox that you play in.

                • andrew jackson 191

                  One more thing, it was pacifism and appeasement that let Hitler and Japan to grow strong enough to require WWII.

                • andrew jackson 191

                  You may have inadvertantly solved the whole torture debate. If Fran Drescher were to read your post out loud, even Rambo would spill his guts.

                • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

                  There is a very interesting article at http://www.russiatoday.ru/Top_News/2009-04-19/_America_lives_in_a_fascist_state____Gerald_Celente.html

                  Then click on “discuss it” at the bottom and read the second comment (by ‘Count Cash’).

                  The more I connect the dots the more I think some serious revolting is going to take place.

            • TeakwoodKite

              If I can retain my honor as a humanbeing it will a good day to die.

              All laws of nature aside.

              • andrew jackson 191

                There is no honor in needlessly sacrificing your life. In defence of your life and the lives of your loved ones, what actions would be dishonorable?

                • TeakwoodKite

                  what actions would be dishonorable?Torturing another humanbeing.

                  Self defense and protecting my family are honorable.
                  I will give no quarter or mercy on the latter. It would swift and efficient.

                  Why do you conflate the two?

                  • andrew jackson 191

                    You wouldn’t consider torture of the evil person that is threatening the lives of your loved ones by his silence? I wouldn’t want to share a foxhole with you.

                    • Paula Revere

                      LMAO Andrew…I think these people would change their tunes if they and their loved ones were murdered, kidnapped, whatever by this murdering scum. WTF is wrong people? Yeah, right, it’s worth dying for some piece of crap who has been trained from BIRTH that America needs to be destroyed at any cost, even suicide. That person is NOT a welcome member of society and I don’t give a damn what happens to them.

                      Also, knowing that LA has had multiple terrorist threats, and that the information is that some of them were stopped by these interrogations, I can say to the lefties – who the hell do you think you are thinking I should die for your phony moral indignation? What a joke. And I promise that moral high road you think you are on would disappear pretty quick if it was your family.

                    • andrew jackson 191

                      Thanks Paula. I know I’m not alone on this issue, but it’s nice to have you post your support.

            • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

              It’s not the law of nature we’re talking about, though, it’ our written law. Hey, if we don’t like it, why’d we write it in the first place?

              The point is, are we going to get what we want (security, prosperity) by creating an optimal system and abiding by its rules or are we just going to ignore our own rules and run rampant behind the scenes because our own laws are getting in our way? Well then, change the law.

              As for all the ‘what if’ situations everybody keeps posting–these are actual threat scenarios. But in these evaluations of what took place in the ‘torture’ sessions, there are so many assumptions thrown in. To me it’s comparing theoretical apples to imaginary oranges.

              PS–It’s hilarious you guys think I’m pious! Thanks for the laughs!

          • NoBamaNoWay

            well, i hope not.

  • Diana

    Larry, I just want you to know I really appreciate your insight and knowledge on these issues. I read all your articles even though I don’t comment on many. If I comment on these types of articles I work myself up into an emotional frenzy that makes 0 sense and contributes nothing to the discussion.

  • Mary Kay

    I don’t believe in torture, but we have to keep in mind that this current administration hasn’t exactly been an advocate of the Constitution, either.

    • Paula Revere

      What Constitution? The current SADministration donated it to the DC school system for toilet paper.

  • sudarshan

    Larry,

    You have your heart on the right side. It is easy to forget that this is a country that rejected torture right at its founding 225 years ago. All the talk about the constitution, our values and principles wouldn’t amount to a hill of beans if we disregard our tradition. The Bill of Rights is an all our nothing affair, as is the entire US Constitution. We either subscribe to it in its entirety or simply not at all.

    Nazi Germany may have had an excuse for torture and genocide because they were not on a mission of nation building. We are on a mission to spread democracy and the rule of law, and have no excuse to torture anybody.

    More power to your pen.

  • Mandelay

    In this world, one nation’s “torture” is another nation’s law. Beheading. Stoning. Gouging out of eyes and chopping off of limbs.. We sign agreements to prevent something like waterboarding, calling it torture, but what about this other stuff? I remain puzzled over the outrage concerning the events at Gitmo. Our country continues to imprison more of our citizens than in any other country in the world. Nobody worries if an innocent is sent to prison. Most jurors believe that the defendant is in court because he or she is guilty. By all accounts the prisoners at Gitmo were more comfortable than just about any prisoner in a stateside jail. How many were actually subjected to waterboarding and how many of those died? Can anyone put Danny Pearl’s head back on his body and bring him back to life? Can anyone erase the videotape of his “execution”? Where is the ongoing outrage over his “experience” as a captive?

    • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

      I agree. Who defines torture? A bug in a cell in exchange for murdering thousands of Americans? Please, whatever they got, they deserved a hell of alot worse. Why don’t we just go sing Kumbuya w the bastards and see how that works out for us. NOT.

      • Paula Revere

        Tom Cat…didn’t you know? Americans have no reason to exist other than to pay for Pelosi’s jet and Obama’s $500,000 pizza. We get to foot the bills while the socialists worry about the rights of every illegal alien, murderer, wife beater/be-header, terrorist, felon, prisoner, etc. and trash OUR rights. We don’t matter, we’re just here to pay the bills. We don’t deserve to be safe, protected and to have a forceful presence in the world. We deserve to die painful deaths because the socialist/apologists think America sucks and we should pay for our sins with the end of our country. Tick tock, 2010 is coming.

        • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

          well said….

    • elise

      We have to decide what kind of country we want to be and if we decide torture is where we are going, we need to stop pretending we are morally superior. Get in line right now, but remember once you justify something you know in your heart is immoral, the door is open and we can’t go back. Lincoln said we shouldn’t ask if God is on our side. We should ask if we are on God’s side. My parents had an unshakable belief God would take care of them if they obeyed his commandments and did their best to live accordingly. I don’t have the same religious beliefs they had, but I try to live my life in the same way. It is shameful to live in so much fear we are willing to sell out what our country stands for while saying it is the best in the world. USA USA USA means nothing if we are so spineless, or angry or vengeful we are willing to become what we have always despised.

      • NoBamaNoWay

        correct; if we do every evil thing that “they did first,” then we’re not really any better than “them.”

      • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

        we need to stop pretending we are morally superior.

        Indeed. And let’s see what that means: No more pontificating about human rights and no more leverage to apply in such instances.

        If you’re a Christian in China, they can call you a terrorist by using our same tortured logic and lock you away. And while you’re locked away, they’ll just use a little waterboarding to get you to confess to all sorts of lies (but everyone knows that it was actually the truth because waterboarding always results in honest confessions). Just don’t go there proselytizing and you’ll be OK. But if you insist, the US will have no standing to do a damn thing about it.

        If you’re on the wrong side in Darfur (refugee). Guess what, you’ve just become a terrorist. The whatever-entity-of-the-week-in-charge will lock you up. And even though there isn’t much water to be had in Darfur, I’m sure they’ll be able to find plenty for a terrorist like you. The US won’t be able to help you, though, since we do the same to those we consider terrorists. You’ll confess to all sorts of things you never did just to make it stop and will then be taken away never to be seen again.

        If you’re a dissident in Cuba and need our help? Well, Castro has gotten on that terrorist bandwagon, too. You’re locked up and he’s got plenty of water, salty, too. He’ll have you admitting you’re actually Lee Harvey Oswald and then lock you up, never to be seen again.

        Has Chavez got you locked up in Caracas? Well the US Embassy can’t do a damn thing because you just got called a terrorist and are going to meet Pedro the Pugilist and a date with a plank and a little water, but it won’t be for your thirst. You’ll, of course, tell them everything you know and “confess to the truth” just to make it stop and be jailed for the rest of your life. Sorry about that.

        Kim Jong Il caught you in the Demiltarized Zone? You poor bastard. You’re not only an enemy combatant but also terrorist who is going to tortured with really filthy water since they won’t waste any of that fresh stuff on you. You’ll confess to being an American Spy and tell the authorities that the US has a secret plan to make NK the 51st state and Lil Kim will lock you up for the rest of your life. No help from us, though. The lie about the 51st state was a nice try, though.

        And gee, that is only the beginning. Because we say we can do to the terrorists as they do to us, then every other country on Earth will do the same damn thing by simply calling someone a terrorist, locking them up, torturing them until they confess to all kinds of lies to which a government can then crow, “we just foiled a secret plot to make our country the 51st state by following the American’s lead.”

        And this all comes about because we decide that torture is good when we do it. Never mind that the efficacy of torture is a fact not in evidence and the resulting information gleaned is hooey and tommyrot.

        • tminu

          Heck if you are concerned about socialism or are a white soldier you are a potential terrorist here inthe USA according to Napolitano.

          • Paula Revere

            She needs to get fired. Do you want to talk about backlash against that biotch? How dare she? Well, Americans are mad. Really mad. She insulted our veterans too. The ones who have kept her ass safe.

        • elise

          It gives me hope to know there are still others who share my view. It would make Ben Franklin proud to see so many on this blog who remember what he and the other founders of this country intended American to be.

        • UKforDems

          Berfle, for the first time in a long time I have agreed with you entirely.

  • Elizabeth

    Not that another reason is necessary, but the torture and abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo was also a major motivation for foreign fighters and suicide bombers who joined al Qaida soley to fight the
    Americans.

    If Zarqawi was captured using post–Abu Ghraib interrogation techniques that replace fear and control with respect, rapport, hope, cunning and deception I understand the reason to have an ongoing torture policy even less.

    http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004036

  • Karma

    Well, if Cheney is convinced that torture works despite numberous reports that it doesn’t.

    Then somebody grab his ass and see what he spills after being worked over.

    We have lost the moral high ground and our troops are not as safe as a result. Even N Korea laughed at us when the US inquired about those two journalist they seized. Stating that they aren’t Gitmo, the women will be charged. Sigh.

    ~~

    “We have the actual experience and testimony of FBI Agents–Dan Coleman, Jack Cloonan, Ali Soufan and Steve Gaudin–who have interrogated successfully terrorist suspects.”

    Anyway, it is a continuing source of inspiration to hear how many good men and women kept their principles in the face of various illegal programs. Like you have pointed out prior, America has faced down much bigger threats with our principles in tact.

  • http://noquarterusa No-nonsense-Nancy

    If only nobama would be on the side of justice for a change instead of only being interested in the political side of it and how it’s going to make him look. Please, someone, make him stop running for re-selection!

  • candymarl

    Mr. Johnson thank you. I guess torture apologists forget that no matter how heinous the crime we have legal ways of dealing with these folks.

    Using the current logic serial killers, that often do terrible things to their victims, should be tortured to death instead of prosecuted. Heck, even Jeffrey Dahmer had his day in court. Goodness knows his crimes were horrific.

    As Mr. Johnson points out, in a subtle way, where do you draw the line?

    When torture becomes commonplace then your humanity is at risk. See lynching.

    Apparently torture was bad under Bush but is now not so bad and no one needs to be prosecuted. Good grief.

    • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

      When torture becomes commonplace then your humanity is at risk. See lynching.

      Your wise words mean a great deal, Candymarl. Thank you for your comment.

      Ferd.

    • TeakwoodKite

      Tick tick tick :)

  • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

    So then why in the hell are we allowing the baying voices of Bush supporters and some on the right to insist, without a shred of empirical evidence, that “torture” works. For starters it does not matter whether it “works.” It is illegal and inhuman.

    Amen, Larry. I am reminded of McCain’s statement during the run-up to the election, “… this is about us”. Indeed. It is about what is morally correct and not about what ends might justify any sort of heinous means. The law makes it illegal but an even higher law is at work here. This is not what we do and not what any society that calls themselves civilized does; it is what barbarians do. Moreover, if we are to consider ourselves civilized and trumpet our values around the world while looking down our collective noses at abuses perpetrated by others and publicly rebuking them for their transgressions, we had damn well better ensure we have a clean slate ourselves. Finally, when we torture, we become that which we abhor and become no better than them.

    • Peggy Sue

      Exactly, Ferd. And John McCain is a case in point. He was tortured, nearly to death. But he hasn’t come out to say: oh, that stuff we were doing is merely “baby” torture, it gets results [therefore it's okay], or with legal posturing we can sanction these practices.

      No, he has said again and again: no torture, no way, no excuses. None under any circumstances, period.

      There is no middle ground here. We either live by the law. Or we don’t.

      I respect McCain’s position. He’s lived it more than any of us here. And I respect Larry’s position because he’s work in the field.

      But more than that, I respect our American traditions. We’re better than this. And if we’re not then we might as well hang it up. Because we’ve already lost.

      • Elizabeth

        McCain may not countenance cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment for prisoners, period. But that’s little solace when the gap between good intentions and results is too large.

        And he clearly moved in the president’s direction to reach the Bush-McCain Amendment limiting a torture ban to the US Military. The CIA still enjoys explicitly unclassified exemptions that allow a return to torture and illegality with techniques falling outside the Army Field Manual.

        All possible thanks to a president who understand the opposing party supported the war and didn’t have the courage to challange the sanctioned cruelty on which it was partially based.

  • http://noquarter foxyladi14

    personally i feel a good steak dinner.with looooooots of wine does the job better.
    faster too.

    • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

      I really like the way you think!

  • L

    I’ve seen fraternity hazing that is worse than what
    happened to these guys and these were special times.
    I think people are making too big a deal out of it.
    No one lost their life or a body part and now that
    they know that they can survive our so-called torture
    techniques they will probably be emboldened. I am sure
    I will be pounced upon and called a neocon or whatever
    but I am a woman,and a registered democrat and was not
    a fan of Bush. I just see this differently than most
    of you do.

    • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

      I’m no bushbot or obamabot. You, on the other hand, do not understand the first thing about two-wrongs not converging to make a right.

      By the way, you’re way out of your league if you’re using sophomoric hazing as an analogy to torture. Come back in about 20 years and you’ll understand.

      • tminu

        I’m a mom, it’s my instinct to protect, and do whatever that takes. I suppose you’d call moms neocons too.

        • tminu

          Or “neomoms”?

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      You forget the fundamental difference–you had a choice to participate in the hazing and the hazing had a limit on it. Give me your address, I’ll kidnap you someday, hold you against your will, accuse you of terrorism, and waterboard your ass until I get tired. Then let’s have a chat about whether or not it constitutes “torture.”

      • L

        ok, i get it. no one is allowed to disagree with
        you, and btw I did not participate in hazing. I
        detect a lot of anger is your offer to kidnap me
        and “waterboard my ass until I get tired” very classy Larry.

        • NoBamaNoWay

          well, shit, you just said it was no big deal!!!! you changed your tune when somebody talked about doing it to you, didn’t you?

          • L

            Please explain how anything I have said
            should cause such vitriol toward me. After
            coming to this site for over a year I can
            see that this is no longer a place where
            people can have different views without
            being pilloried. I will not return.

            • Karma

              Someone disagreed with you….so what.

              I thought you were tough enough to take a hazing?

              Now you want to run off over words?

            • rw

              Don’t take it personal, rebuttals here can be visceral instead of explanatory counterarguments …. Many posts are on very interesting subjects and can carry in them really good points,plus there are some posters that have really sharp insight, they are worth staying.

              I understand your pt. about hazing, the assault can be so harsh that there is a disconnect and it no longer feels to the hazee as if it is “voluntary” or like whatever is going is in a “controlled” environment. He breaks from being “part” of what is going on. But hazing is illegal, for the most part.

            • Katmoon-Adams

              Now if that is interpreted by you as vitriol, do you really think you have a handle on what torture is, I think not. You were disagreed with, no one harmed you.

    • Not in my name

      It’s established fact that at least 5 suspects died while we were using these “so-called torture techniques” on them. How many more such incidents never leaked out? We know that evidence was deliberately destroyed.

      The Bush administration set up guidelines that that resulted in instances where suspects were actually tortured to death.

      • elise

        Not in my name either!

      • TexasBuckeye

        Where is that an established fact? The ACLU summary reports of documents obtained under FOIA do not state that any detainees were tortured to death.

    • Peggy Sue

      I’m a woman. And I was hazed over a six-week period with a huge finale during Hell Week. Was it pleasant? No.

      But I never thought I was going to die.

      Huge difference!

    • TeakwoodKite

      and a registered democrat …

      That explains it.

  • termo

    The Geneva Convention does not apply to Al Qaeda so some other standard needs to be used.

    Having a selective memory is very convenient to absolve responsibility. The fact is that leaders like Nancy Pelosi and other relevant Democrats knew what was being done and agreed with it.

    If there is going to be an investigation it must include members of the House and Senate who went along with it. Fortunately for them, they cannot be prosecuted because of their position.

    I would also like to see the balance of the CIA files on these interrogations to see if Cheney and others are right about the information extracted. We have a right to know at this point.

    Personally, the person who is a sub-human who is responsible for beheading journalist Daniel Pearl and planned 9/11 as well as other mass terror attacks should have not been formally arrested, so that he could be properly interrogated by non-government agents of the U.S. I have no sympathy for these people and feel it is a waste to expend any consideration on their behalf.

    • J.J. (The P.U.M.A.)

      The statement that Al Qaeda is not covered by the Geneva Convention is a legal argument, not a moral one.

      I believe we demean ourselves as a people when we tolerate barbarianism in our name.

      • termo

        That’s why I said there needs to be a different legal standard other than the Geneva Convention.

        Still I have no sympathy for the animals that were tortured.

      • Peggy Sue

        You’re right, JJ. The very people who wail and moan over “criminals” getting off on technical points now want to use the same argument to sanction immoral acts.

        If we’re so eager to engage the “barbarians” by using immoral and unAmerican acts then we’ve signed our own death warrent. Stand or fall by who and what we are. Or don’t stand at all.

        If we are not a nation of principle and rule of law then we are nothing at all. This is “not” what our forefathers sacrificed for. It’s not what are war dead died for. And I’ll be damned if I ever agree to it!

    • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

      I don’t give a shit who did what to whose dog. Torture was not, is not, and will never be justifiable. This isn’t a party issue but an issue of what it is to be an American and a civilized one, at that.

      Stop with the partisan bullshit on this one because it is fucking irrelevant. Anyone, irrespective of party who was in on this should be brought before the bar of justice.

      • termo

        Easy for you to say now.

        The you will have to also bring the Senators and Congressman who also bought in on it.

        If this was a conventional war this would be almost as bad as the Mi Lai massacre. But this has to do with a couple of sub-humans who are not worth the consideration even as a precendent. Ever watch the videos the way this bastards behead Americans?

        • Peggy Sue

          Are you frigging insane? Do you honestly think that those low end military types, who were brought to justice, were the responsible parties? Or is it all right to torture people, human beings {remember}, because we’ve determined in our moral superiority that they are unfit to live or feel pain, and deserve torture, even baby torture, absolutely.

          Do we know that in every case? Can we be sure? And even if we were sure does that sound like something Americans should be doing?

          Yes, the acts that committed by the enemy were barbaric. But if we abandon our principles, we’ve joined the barbarians.

          Civilized or not? It’s an easy question.

          There is no gray area here. We live by principle, by law. Or we don’t live at all.

          • termo

            Have Obama release the rest of the CIA files on this and see what was extracted out of them. It’s been over 7 years, let’s see what was supposedly stopped and debate over that.

            “But if we abandon our principles”

            Ever see a person deciding to jump over 50 stories instead of being incinerated alive? Tell that person you would rather see an American die than commit a “barbaric’ act.

            We live by securing the country and keeping American safe from foreign enemies.

            • Not in my name

              Maybe we should waterboard suspected pedophiles to get the truth out of them?

              We could justify that by pointing out the horrendously evil acts that have been committed by certain pedophiles.

              Our principles are all we’ve got. They’re what make us different from the terrorists.

              • termo

                “pedophiles”

                When it concerns those people I wouldn’t consider that torture.

                • Peggy Sue

                  Well, that says it all doesn’t it. Who else doesn’t fall into the human category? What other untouchables would you like to add to the list for torture? And what sort of torture, termo? Pull their finger nails out? How about burning at the stake? Why not the Iron Maiden? Get those suckers good. They deserve it and more.

                  Do I like pedophiles? No, I find the crime disgusting.

                  Do I want the Inquisition to return? No. Because once it starts, there’s no end to it. Read you’re God damn history. Or perhaps you’d prefer the suffering of our honorable past.

                  To each his own!

                  • NomNomNom

                    “Do I want the Inquisition to return? No. Because once it starts, there’s no end to it.”
                    that’s an excellent point, and anyone could be the accused whether they think so or not.

                    • viking

                      “Do I want the Inquisition to return? No. Because once it starts, there’s no end to it.
                      that’s an excellent point, and anyone could be the accused whether they think so or not.”

                      This argument is not valid and here’s why:

                      The claim is that the intelligence/military arm cannot be trusted to utilize these techniques in a limited and appropriate way.

                      But this is would be true of any power which is authorized to use force. Yet we have empowered our law enforcement and military to use force in limited and appropriate ways and they have on a day to day basis for over 250 years.

                      That long record of limited and appropriate use of force argues FOR our intelligence/military ability to maintain responsibility.

        • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

          But this has to do with a couple of sub-humans who are not worth the consideration even as a precendent.

          Funny, you rather sound like one of them. Did that ever occur to you?

          • termo

            If you were to pose that question to people who lost their lives on 9/11 do really believe that any of them would have sacrificed their lives for some principal of humane treatment of sub-humans? Get serious.

            Again, this is am issue not worthy of the people who were harshly interrogated.

            • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

              If you were to pose that question to people who lost their lives on 9/11 do really believe that any of them would have sacrificed their lives for some principal of humane treatment of sub-humans? Get serious.

              You still assume the inhumane and barbaric act of torture would have actually made a difference. It is a fact not in evidence. On the other hand, should you want to join those subhumans in sadism, that is your choice. I won’t besmirch my humanity by becoming those things I despise. You apparently, don’t feel the same way.

              • termo

                It’s a friggin’ fact that it made a difference!!!

                This is the difference between responsible leadership and some utopian idea of kumbaya.

                If you knew that there was a distinct possibility of a major terror attack and a detainee knew the details you do everything in your power to get that information to save possible hundreds or thousands of American lives. To draw the line before harsh interrogation techniques is irresponsible and is the difference bewteen real leadership and some kitchen table Monday morning quarterbacking.

                By your statements you would choose to sacrifice those hundreds or thousands of lives and that I find deplorable. That is the difference between real world and myth.

            • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

              I’m posing the question to YOU. Stay on topic here. When you go on and on about how we should torture this “subhuman” and that “subhuman”, guess what? You sound just like those subhumans you so despise. I won’t become an animal simply because one attacks me. Judging solely on your comments on this thread, I’d say you don’t feel the same way.

              • termo

                If pouring some water on a subhuman’s face would extract information to save another 9/11 then guess what. The NYTims had an article confirming that high value info was extracted. A subhuman would allow another 9/11 Berfle. The job of this government is to first save the lives of Americans from foreign enemies.

            • NomNomNom

              “do really believe that any of them would have sacrificed their lives for some principal of humane treatment of sub-humans?”
              the people who died in 9-11 didn’t sacrifice themselves for anything, moron; they were murder victims not volunteers. You can only speculate as to that for which they would or would not sacrifice themselves: no one knows because the occasion never happened.
              “Again, this is am issue not worthy of the people who were harshly interrogated.”
              Your flag draping tricks don’t work here. Provide empirical evidence or shut up.

        • TeakwoodKite

          The you will have to also bring the Senators and Congressman who also bought in on it.

          Why not? They are equally responsible.

          Pelosi and Harmon, Reid and anyone wo was briefed in should not be able to hide behind the viel of secrecy and say “I was not able to talk about it. It was classified.”

          Lord knows what other “notes” Rockerfeller has in his safe.

          • elise

            You are right, Teak. We need to hold them all responsible and it doesn’t matter what letter follows their name. I have despised Rockefeller since the day he said he knew the Iraq intelligence was cherry picked, but couldn’t tell the American people because it was classified so he allowed the US to go to war on faulty info.

  • Hank

    Should the Justice Dept. look into BHO BC?

    • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

      There’s a proctologist carrying a clipboard with your name on it who says he’s coming to retrieve the BC from your rectum, troll.

  • JS

    Where to begin…

    “We need to recoin the acronym NAMBLA to fit the Neocons … but i can’t think of what :) :)” SusanUnPc

    Wow. This gal is clever and has class. Wonderful…

    Torture? Torture?? Putting a (non-biting!) bug in a box with a sub-human (who would gladly cut off the heads of everyone here who is defending him) is torture? Is that really torture? Are any of the harsh (they’re really not all that harsh – once you drop “Bush” from the equation, some of them are more like “gotcha!” stuff) techniques torturous, or are they just mind-Fing? If Clinton did this, you’d be falling all around him/ her for being so clever as to figure out ways to get info WITHOUT harming anyone.

    Torture? Let’s see…Smashing fingers with a hammer-check; pulling out finger nails – check; cutting out tongues, or cutting off limbs, etc – check. You know (And you really do. You just hate Bush), stuff that “leaves marks” They actually scared the bejeezus out of scumbags whose very mission in life is killing the same people that would save them? Awww. Torture? No…

    Military guy: This guy has info which we need to stop an attack on American citizens. Follow my lead. Mohammed! Where is the nuke!

    Mohammed: I will not tell you.

    M G: Oh no? Ever play 52 card pick up?

    No Quarter: STOP! You can’t be serious! You expect him to pick up ALL 52 cards? My God! BUUUUUUSH! Are you that sick, man?! AAARRRGGGHHH! Now Mohammed, tell us, if you think you can, where the nuke is. mmk?

    M: No

    N Q: He’s too tough. Release him with a box of cookies.

    Florida: BOOM!!

    N Q: At least we’re not like that evil Bush…

    Cut to nuclear winter…

    • Carol HAKA

      Please – The asswipe they waterboarded was already guilty of 3000 + murders and a trillion + dollars in property damage – not to mention he beheaded a few people in front of the cameras.

      I’m a swimmer, you could intermittently pour water in my face for a week – I might have a runny nose!

      My son was in LA. He is still alive. Thank you Bush or whoever the hell sanctioned it and carried it out.

      My brother was killed by a drunk driver. Unless you have ever had someone purposefully killed, you might not get the point.

      I say – Thank you very much.

      And Larry – the Jews were murdered after they were tortured for no crimes. Your analogy is pathetic.

      And you can say pedophile all day long – we are over the shock value of most things thanks to Al Queda.

      CAROL HAKA :evil:

  • decentAmerican

    I am personally torn on this issue. I see your point, Larry, you are so eloquent, but these are trying and threatening times. One tries to be a good person, but can we all remain good people when there are clearly bad people out there trying to kill you? How does one defend oneself with sheer goodness?

    It is reported that the past waterboarding was able to thwart a 9/11 style attack on Los Angeles. If true, do you still feel that it was not worthwhile to use those techniques to save millions of lives?

    I have to take a reality check. If waterboarding a known terrorist (who would otherwise have every intent and pleasure on killing me if he were not caught) would directly save the lives of my family…..I would have to say, have at it.

    If those of you feel differently from doing what you can to save your family, then that is your opinion.

    • elise

      “One tries to be a good person, but can we all remain good people when there are clearly bad people out there trying to kill you? How does one defend oneself with sheer goodness?”

      It isn’t a test of one’s character to be good when the journey is easy or to be moral only when there isn’t a threat. One defends one’s soul first and foremost and that includes the soul of the country. If we want to claim the soul doesn’t exist, then we have to justify nothing, but then neither does any one else.

      • Carol HAKA

        Grow UP!

        We will put that on your grave if we can figure out which ashes belong to you.

        Why don’t you join up and go on over there and show them how to do it the moral way?

        CAROL HAKA :evil:

        • elise

          You know what, Carol? You have called me nasty names several times, but I forgive you. In the last two years I’ve been called “an old fuck”, “a stupid cunt”, a racist and every combination of those words and I’ve forgiven those commenter to the extent possible. You are a nasty, hateful person, but that’s your problem, not mine. I have my moral standards and you have yours. I feel shame that our government has been involved in this kind of interrogation. You disagree. That’s your right. This will be the last time I will ever respond to any comment you make.

          • Carol HAKA

            I’m sorry – exactly what name were you called?

      • decentAmerican

        i understand what you are saying, but I don’t see how we can ever win with this way of thinking….YES, we want to and strive to live by a higher moral code, regardless of circumstances….BUT…. our enemies will NEVER live by the same moral code. And we can hope and pray and hold hands and give gifts and hug….they NEVER will. It is part of their genetic code. THEY WANT TO ANNIALATE US FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

        If we don’t fight back, how can we defend ourselves? they will always have the advantage!

        Note, like other posters here, I am not talking about the gruesome limb tearing beheadings that our enemies use….but a bug in a bag, or waterboarding, seems like a small sacrifice to pay for saving millions of lives.

        The proof is in the pudding, though. If it is clearly proven not to work, then I would agree, nevermore. But as I said in the post above, that waterboarding was noted to gain intelligence that prevented an attack on LA. If that is true….then IT WORKS.

        It is easy to be an a higher moral code if you are not personally involved. But put yourself in the picture….if your child’s life was in danger, and waterboarding (non-lethal, non-maiming) were to save your child, can you HONESTLY say that you would refuse?

        And if such methods were to save other people….OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN…..then why would your answer be any different?

        • elise

          This is how easy it is to rationalize something evil? Present a hypothetical and try to force me to say I would allow my child to die rather than give my consent to something I believe is morally wrong? Gandhi said there were causes for which he would die, but none for which he would kill. My family mean all the world to me, but what kind of legacy would I leave them if I compromise on something so basic to my beliefs? I would give my life for them and they know this is true. That’s the only response the ridiculous hypothetical deserves. And woodiej, I have never sung Kumbuya in my life, but if that is a euphemism for believing in the essential goodness of others, it doesn’t describe me. I know evil exists and the only valid response for me is not to embrace it.

          • xax

            I can admire your belief. However, there may come a time when the evil is right before your face and wants to devour you. Will choosing to turn the other cheek stop that evil? No. Will standing up to that evil and fighting it better solve your problem- yes.

            You can fight against “torture” if that is what you deem evil. I see no evil in what they do because I honestly believe it’s a tool used to fight an evil that want’s us dead.

            Though I dislike the hypothetical, when it describes honest moral dilemmas I find them intriguing. And for me if it meant waterboarding someone to save the life of my child- I would do it. If it meant killing someone…. I do not think I could, but I’ve never been put in that situation and hope it never happens.

            • elise

              I do understand your point of view, xax, and I appreciate your thoughtful response. Good versus Evil is a very old argument and the one point usually ignored is the need to define the words and decide whether there are shades of gray. 9/11 was a clear evil, but was it pure evil? Mother Teresa was clearly a good person, but was she pure? Torture may not classify as purely evil, but does that matter? I know this is a moral argument, which some dismiss as not relevant, but there is also Larry’s argument that it doesn’t produce reliable intelligence? What if the person knows nothing and has done nothing wrong? What does it do to the phychic of those who actually torture?

          • decentAmerican

            I really don’t understand your response…..you say you would do anything for your children, yet if their lives were on the line, you would stand by your goodness and do nothing? You contradicted yourself.

            And, I’m sorry, but you have a very Pollyanna view of the world. You call this a “ridiculous hypothetical”???

            Trust me, there are people out there, at this very second, scheming and dreaming to have your children and my children, murdered.

            It is utterly delusional and dangerous to ignore that fact. But, if we live by different standards, then I will do what I can to protect my children. If you take pride that you can protect your children by your “moral code”, then so be it.

            But, God help them.

            • elise

              decent (?) I didn’t say I would do anything for my children. I said my family means the world to me and I would die for them. Do you respect the opinion of LJ when he said torture doesn’t work? Do you know first hand the info is reliable? The reporter being held by Iran is innocent, the two in China are innocent. How do we know this? The media says it’s true. Is there even one innocent man among the 250 being held at Gitmo? Have innocent men been tortured?

        • NoBamaNoWay

          nobody said anything about not fighting back. a nation can certainly fight back and retain its honor at the same time.

    • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

      sometimes being good and doing the right thing means doing something that isn’t pretty. Sometimes that is the only way to fight evil. Singing kumbuya and sucking on lollipops and playing on the merry go round together won’t cut it.

    • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

      If we agree to it, then let’s put it into our law books. I think that’s the point.

  • StPaulite

    I don’t know about all the other apologists and legalists and rationalizers about torture, but I would like to win the war on terror.

    Torture will not help us win. Torture does not produce truth, it only multiplies lies. I could give a rat’s ass what happens, personally, to someone active in or affiliated with al Qaeda. That isn’t the point. You can’t judge what we do based on how evil our enemies are.

    I believe in banning torture with no exceptions, and the rule of law, and due process, and jury trials, not because I feel like being nice to these people, or pity them. I believe in them because they are the only way of sorting out facts from lies. They are the only ways human beings have at arriving at the truth.

    Pro-torture people are not interested in civilization, they are playing out their own revenge fantasies by proxy. Like all the other pretend warriors they’re acting tough for a crowd using other people’s kids as tools, and selling the rest of us out in the process.

    No other nation has any reason to trust us with anything until this is cleaned up.

    • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

      You’ve got to be kidding me? Justice in a court of law is a fucking JOKE. Rapists, child molesters and wife beaters typically get off with a slap on the wrist. Murderers often don’t get alot more. If they do get life in prison, they have it better than alot of people who obey the law and are struggling to put a roof over their head. Spare me the justice bullshit. Is it justice to behead people? Cut off the limbs of soldiers and DRAG THEM THROUGH THE STREETS?

      You damn well better give a rats ass about terrorists and Al Quaida. Someday it could be you at their mercy. If you won’t speak up for fighting for our liberty, no one will be left to fight for you.

      The Somali pirate in NY is grinning through his teeth. Wonder why that is? Because he’s in a US court of law and knows they won’t do SHIT TO HIM.

      • Paula Revere

        So, I am guessing, if one of the terrorists Obama lets loose in this country soon kidnaps and rapes on of your daughters, and he has her hidden at an unknown location…I guess you would let that child die a slow, painful death, rather than find out where your daughter was at any cost? You wouldn’t even have the urge? Come on.

        • tminu

          ah, you’re another NeoMom like me!

  • mary

    Jane Mayer’s THE DARK SIDE is phenomenal. We just bought another copy as mine kept disappearing in the office!…Larry’s recommendation (‘review’) was right on target….thx

  • mary

    Just read the “HILLARY Clinton” rolling asides on the right hand side of this page….fantastic current info on whatever Hillary’s up to these days.
    [Periodically, Barack will feel down and start launching attacks against (Hillary, Palin, Common Sense...) to boost His appeal]

  • HARP

    Can`t wait until Obama`s good friend Colin Powell gets indicted:

    Colin Powell passively assented to torture. Although he occasionally raised concerns, there is no evidence that he threatened to resign — as Ashcroft and others did over the issue of domestic wiretapping. He sat in meetings and listened as George Tenet offered graphic descriptions of torture committed by U.S. government officials — and never once objected, other than to complain that Tenet’s statements were unnecessary, given the fact that the President already had authorized torture.

    As was the case with his presentation at the United Nations, he accepted what he heard and did as he was told. Only later, after the Yoo memo and the Abu Ghraib scandal became public, did he begin to object — and then only to ask if there were any other memos he should know about. At no time did he confront Cheney or Bush, threaten to go public, or quit in protest.

    Later on, after he was once again a private citizen, Powell did raise concerns about the Administration’s policies, writing in 2006 to John McCain to express his opposition to proposed rules on Military Commissions:

    n his letter to McCain, Powell said the effort to “redefine” the article was “inconsistent” with his previous opposition to the use of torture. “The world,” he wrote, “is beginning to doubt the moral basis of our fight against terrorism.” . . .

    Powell declined yesterday to address Bush’s comments. “To say that we want to modify, clarify or redefine Common Article 3 [of the Geneva Conventions], which has not been modified for the 57 years of its history, I think adds to the doubt” about U.S. morality, he said. “Plus I believe that the legitimate concerns that the administration has can be dealt with in other ways.”

  • JS

    This is what the Left does best. Re-define something, and then hammer away with the lie (sorry, the new definition…) until it becomes accepted as truth.

    Who is for torture? Who is advocating doing severe, permanent, physical and mental harm? No one is.

    What makes your arguments so ridiculous and invalid are things like declaring putting a caterpillar in a box with a guy as being torture.

    It seems as though in the hatred of all things Bush, the train has left the station. Works? Doesn’t work? Doesn’t really matter. If Bush did it, we hate it. LA was saved? So?

    Please, someone, explain another way to get info of this kind from a bloodthirsty animal who wants to kill you? Just ask? Say please? What?

    What would any of you do if your daughter was being held, and would die within the hour, and you had the guy who knew where she was? And you asked, and he laughed? That’s that? I call BS on that.

    Sigh…

    • Mandelay


      It seems as though in the hatred of all things Bush, the train has left the station. Works? Doesn’t work? Doesn’t really matter. If Bush did it, we hate it.

      Good point.

    • HARP

      Until such times that the radicals can see the error of their ways, I am prepared to do anything to protect my family. If the good Lord wants me to be different he can take it up with me at a later time.I am prepared to meet my Maker. Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.

    • Not in my name

      Torturing captive suspects became the official policy of the American government. People were actually tortured to death as a result of an American president’s directives. Do you get that?

    • Paula Revere

      JS you are right, and I just posted something similar up thread. Frankly, I’m tired of the left not giving a damn about Americans and whining all day about Bush and what he did or didn’t do. We’re alive. We won’t be soon. Period. It’s like the argument for the death penalty…well, they won’t do it AGAIN. I know, I know, the Death Penalty sucks. You won’t be thinking that if it’s you it happens to, trust me. And you wouldn’t be thinking make nicey nice to murderers if you had ever experienced what our military has, or been the victim of a violent crime in the US.

      It seems as though in the hatred of all things Bush, the train has left the station. Works? Doesn’t work? Doesn’t really matter. If Bush did it, we hate it. LA was saved? So?

      +1 People are so blinded by hate all things Bush that they are getting frigging irrational.

      • NoBamaNoWay

        what about the MANY MANY innocent people who have been wrongly put to death for crimes they didn’t commit? believe me, if i had certain knowledge that someone committed a heinous murder, for example, i would support just about any punishment, but we don’t have that certain, perfect knowledge very often, do we?

        i don’t support blindly lashing out and killing or torturing anybody, just in case they “might” be guilty of something or “might” be thinking about committing some crime in the future. that’s a slippery freakin’ slope.

    • Anon

      I was that daughter being held by someone who pointed out the missing persons flier on the wall of his last victim.

      Thanks to information provided by my dad when we were children for just such a situation, I got away.

      But I guarantee the prospect of hurting or killing someone isn’t what you think. Even if it is your own life on the line.

      My first reaction while trying to prep my head for this life and death fight out of the building was to hurl. I had to swallow it because I couldn’t risk that moment of vunerability.

      Talking about it is one thing. Being there is quite another.

      That all said, talking to the jerk is what gave me the opportunity to get away because he had come up from behind and had me by both my hair and shirt. I had to get him frazzled and off his plan to get him in front of me so I had a chance. But not upset him too much so he was stronger as result. It took a while and lucky for me he wanted to play mind games and draw it out. Instead of the grab and run he did with the other girl.

      Talking to him also provided the info for the cops to arrest him. They found her blonde hairs in a closet, exactly where he said she was kept.

      Your best bet in that situation is to teach your daughter to get away. And yes talking to someone is extrememly effective. They reveal weaknesses with every exchange.

    • sgf2

      Yes. What would we do if it were OUR daughter? It’s so easy for many of us on the left to condemn something from afar. But anyone posed with that question who would say they would stick to the “constitutional” playbook, is full of it. You have two burning buildings, your child trapped in one and the Constitution in the other. Who do you save?

  • HARP

    This is all a smokescreen……noone is going to get charged.
    Just look at a small sample of the headlines they are trying to cover up.

    Feinstein sought $25B for agency…

    TARP INSPECTOR GENERAL WARNS OF ‘CATASTROPHIC FRAUD’ POTENTIAL…

    Key Dem Said to Have Agreed to Aid Lobbyists…

    Murtha’s Defense Earmarks Draw Questions…

    CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted Attack on LA…

    Cheney hits Obama on handshake….

    Jane Harman Denies Interceding In Israeli Spy Case…

  • SAINTIXE56

    Amen , Larry. Amen…from experience having had the luck??? to have arelative who was tortured by german thugs and who lucky enough to tell the tale to his extended young family members.
    He was a french underground freedom fighter , admittedly possibly not a very skilled one but he survived despite having to make do with a permanently funny shape skull. Torture, he knew and many of his friends did not make it, killed ; tortured then sent to concentration camps or worse as nacht und nebel… did they speak, those unknowns.. Some did, few , most were martyrs without success , some even ccommitted suicide , Jean Moulin never spoke. In the US they make fun of cheese eating monkeys. Some were undoubtedly cowards , some were not.
    Torture is not working. Gestapo tried it all over Europe including some british agents and possibly some US soldiers. If it was working, why in Hell did the Allies not go for it.
    Possibly because we had leaders with a ….soul. Who knew that there are boundaries not to cross over. But torture works as … incitive to more heroes; more martyrs who say No. Does Cheney read history?
    Does he realize that actually he is giving rights for talibans to fight on and deny actually the poor cubans in castrist prisons their fight. Saying No is sometimes the only weapon the freedom fighters have and …it must have worked all over the world.
    Torture is Evil, as simple as that. As long as people will rather die than speak and from what I know one can find character and courage in rather homely places Cheny may reign supreme as bully , he may kill a quite air amount of people, but it will only hget more desesperate people to rise and say No.
    Since this torture in Iraq, he has managed to insult all those good people who fought during WW2 on the good side. I am proud to be an American, I am not proud that Cheney is also american….

    • Peggy Sue

      I would suggest anyone having a problem with this issue think about Hannah Arendt’s term: banality of evil.

      It speaks to the issue of bureaucrats determining what is/was moral or immoral. In Arendt’s model, it started small, almost insignificant, so the slide was acceptable to many. The on-going determinations were made by “ordinary” people, people who accepted the premises of their state and therefore participated with the view that their actions were normal, even necessary.

      In retrospect, the end result was clearly “not” normal.

      I suspect many will scream: how ridiculous to compare this to Nazi Germany. But these things start in small, barely decipherable steps–a crimp in the law, a blind eye to what is right, a reason to abandon principle. And poof! We’re in a different Universe that we once knew.

      You can explain it away, make excuses until you’re blue in the face.

      Wrong is wrong. There is no middle ground.

      • Elizabeth

        Even forgetting the wrongness in moral, human and legal terms, a pragmatic argument from all the old hand, experienced counterterrorism experts and literature is that torture simply does not work. They make a much more compelling case than the rank nonsense being spouted by amaetur ideologues here that we should go exactly the opposite way, develop a rapport with the detainee and try to gain the trust of our enemies, as only then can you get the real information from them.

        You can try to justify torture and no mercy for the sake of lives, but in the end it really does only increase the number of your enemies. I know if I were unfairly accused and treated like an animal I too would look for revenge. A propaganda coup for “freedom fighters,” suicide bombers and extremist groups the world over.

        Perceived injustice and the harms it perpetuates in terms of escalation, radicalization, resentment — this is supposed to prevent future terrorist attacks? Why would detainees be more likely to cooperate during interrogations if they don’t trust us ??

        And there won’t be a damn thing the United States can say about it when we’ve disowned our own values to fight on their moral turf.

      • elise

        That is a frightening and very true thing, Peggy Sue. I think Hitler, Herman Goering and the rest of the Third Reich new how to use psychology to get people to ignore the underlying rot in what passed for moral behavior and it was done a little at a time. ” Wrong is wrong. There is no middle ground”

        • Katmoon-Adams

          Yes, and part of that psychology was done by first placing people into groups considered to be less desirable, less than human, less than the average……fill in the blank, so first classify, next step dehumanize, then it becomes alright to do what ever it takes. This isn’t the first time our country has tortured either, we tortured our own in the Revolutionary and Civil Wars, Native Americans were tortured, etc.. and what positive results have there ever been, zip!

          We can interrogate, we can use other methods that are not torture, and therein lies the big question…What constitutes torture? I would say water boarding passes the torture definition.

          • Peggy Sue

            I would say you’re right, Katmoon. I would say I do not wish my name attached to waterboarding, directly or indirectly.

  • JS

    Will one of you please define torture? That would be a good place to start.

    Torture has a ring of gratuitousness to it. No purpose. “Take that!”. It leaves REAL scars (Comparing the torture McCain went through (It was truly purposeless) to the “torture” of some guy worried about a caterpillar in the box with him, is insulting to McCain and the person who find bugs-in-a-box to be torture).

    It is astonishing that the hatred for Bush can render grown-ups logically and intellectually inoperative.

    Bug-in-a-box is torture? You actually feel some sort of human kinship with those that will kill you (even if you said “read my post! I stood up for you!”) if given half a chance? Those that cut off heads?

    Please present an alternative to getting info from these kinds…

  • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

    Written by a housewife in New Brunswick, to her local newspaper. This is one ticked off lady.

    ‘Are we fighting a war on terror or aren’t we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 and have continually threatened to do so since?

    Were people from all over the world, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from the nation’s capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania?

    Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn’t they?

    And I’m supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and are fighting against in a brutal insurgency.

    I’ll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

    I’ll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan.

    I’ll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg’s head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

    I’ll care when the cowardly so-called ‘insurgents’ in Afghanistan come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

    I’ll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

    I’ll care when the Canadian media stops pretending that their freedom of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting at home to hear about them when something happens.

    In the meantime, when I hear a story about a CANADIAN soldier roughing up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information, know this:

    I don’t care.

    When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:

    I don’t care.

    When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and ‘fed special’ food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being ‘mishandled,’ you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts:

    I don’t care.

    And oh, by the way, I’ve noticed that sometimes it’s spelled ‘Koran’ and other times ‘Quran.’ Well, Jimmy Crack Corn you guessed it,

    I don’t care!!

    ‘Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Soldiers don’t have that problem.’

    Only five defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

    1. Jesus Christ

    2. The Canadian Soldier.

    3. The British Soldier.

    4. The US Soldier, and

    5. The Australian Soldier

    One died for your soul, the other 4 for your freedom.

    • Carol HAKA

      Amen!

      CAROL HAKA :evil:

    • Not in my name

      I reject the way this woman thinks. She can wave her flag and talk about Jesus all she wants, but I don’t believe she understands the first thing about patriotism or the first thing about Jesus’s message,. I’m sick of angry, self-righteous, superficial people like her who assert that they own the flag and the bible.

      • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

        oh really. Ok which one of these is your idea of Patriotism:

        Soldiers being murdered than having their bodies drug in the streets of Iraq

        An American reporter being beheaded

        or

        3,000 innocent Americans being murdered on 9/11

        If it weren’t for these brave people, we would be like Iraq, China, and other socialist, repressed countries. Fighting evil is why WE ARE FREE.

        As for Jesus’s message, you don’t know what it is either for anyone but yourself. Talk about self righteous.

        • Not in my name

          The fact that there are evil people in the world doesn’t justify that we become evil ourselves.

          99,861 civilians are dead in Iraq because of Bush.

          4,274 American soldiers are dead in Iraq because of Bush.

          The Bush administration should get a pass for torturing captives to keep America safe?

          In the name of safety, Bush made us an unrighteous nation. We are less than we were before, because of that man.

          • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

            NO THOSE PEOPLE ARE DEAD BECAUSE OF AL QUAIDA ATTACKING OUR COUNTRY AND OUR MILITARY TRYING TO SAVE LIVES AND FREEDOM IN THE UNITED STATES. So you think it’s evil to fight for freedom and self preservation, self defense??

            The methods used are in question of whether it was torture or not. But you are entitled to your own definition of that as well as what Patriotism means.

            • ces

              9/11 =! (ie. NOT equal to) Iraq.

    • Peggy Sue

      My answer to this? If we don’t care, if we let our raw emotions dictate our actions then we are truly lost.

      Do I care that our soldiers and citizens have died? Of course. I watched 9/11 on TV, and then tried explaining it to co-workers who had not seen the live, awful visions that I’d witnessed. Am I horrified at the senseless and horrific deaths that we’ve seen on tape or heard about second hand? Of course.

      Do I know about loss, fear and anger? Yes. I’m human. I lost my parents and felt [and still feel] like an orphan in the world. I lost my older sister to an act of unspeakable violence. I lost my brother-in-law, and quite recently, my best friend. And I nearly lost my youngest child to a completely preventable accident, the careless action of others.

      Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. I live my life by that and I expect those that act in my name will act accordingly. No where did Jesus speak of torture. And our young men and women went and go to war with the very best intentions. Please, let’s not belittle their sacrifice or the sacrifice on the cross with discussions of hate.

      It’s unseemly.

      • JS

        “…No where did Jesus speak of torture…”

        Again. Please. Will one of you define what is and is not torture? And please offer your solution re: collecting info from these animals.

        I think whatever is necessary-and yes, I’ll even go so far as putting a bug-in-a-box! to get info from these animals, is justified. If they answer…all done! If not? Take two.

        Now, as for torture? If you mean the brutal treatment of one of these animals just for the heck of it? No. Cutting off fingers, etc, to punish or “have some fun”? No.

        We have half of this board doing their own personal therapy because something “horrible” happened to them-”I was mugged so torture is wrong!” “I failed a test-that was torture! And torture is wrong!”, and then somehow taking their feelings of hurt and applying that to animals who would kill them just as fast as they could and FEELING SORRY FOR THE ENEMY!

        I still have not read one comment, even from the head of this blog, as to what their solution is. And I know why. They support the troops, but not the war! They really do not believe that we are fighting evil. They could not care less about getting answers from these animals- “WE’RE the animals!!”

        When I hear just one way, other than making someone uncomfy, that will yield results…

        Larry, you throw around your CIA credentials like a kid swinging at a Pinata. Lets hear it:
        Are we fighting a war against terrorists?

        If so, do they have any info at all that we need in order to help prevent attacks?

        If so, how would YOU go about getting it?

        • shadow

          There’s no more war on terror. It is now the “Overseas Contingency Operation”. (rolling eyes) Make sure Bin Laden gets the memo.

        • Peggy Sue

          JS, I was referring to the letter that was posted above, where the woman referenced the name of Jesus to justify her main point: I don’t care.

          Sorry, but that hardly sounds like the Jesus the nuns drummed into my head since I was four years old.

          As for a definition of torture? Did you read Larry’s piece? Did you read his earlier piece? He went through waterboarding during training, admitted that at first he discounted the procedure as torture, but changed his mind. Why? Because he’s honorable enough to admit that what he went through was temporary, a training exercise, that the men performing the “baby” torture were on his side and he knew they would “not let him suffocate.”

          There’s a huge difference when the victim of the exercise knows that it is indeed merely an “exercise,” and that it will not end in death. And please read Larry’s additional information, declarations by interrogators, who say these “enhanced” interrogations are not necessary, that information can be successfully extracted with more humane procedures. And that interrogators who participated in these “enhanced” techniques have been haunted by what they’d done.

          No one here is implying we should hug a terrorist. But becoming what we hate is a no-win position.

      • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

        so you think it shows we care by letting our citizens and country be destroyed?

  • hinterlands

    would all of you people agree that torture should be used on terrorists that took down the towers in 2001 ? and if you dont agree, you must be with “them”. How soon this country forgets 9-11. I could waterboard them myself for killing those innocent souls..its a different world now.

  • JS

    “… Give me your address, I’ll kidnap you someday, hold you against your will, accuse you of terrorism, and waterboard your ass until I get tired. Then let’s have a chat about whether or not it constitutes “torture.”…”

    This cuts to the heart of the matter. They really, really, do not believe that there is a terrorism threat. Why? Because !Bush! said there is, that’s why. And, face it, if there isn’t a terrorism threat, than anyone accused of being a terrorist is really innocent, And doing anything to someone who is innocent, can actually be defined as some sort of “torture”. Who would do anything to an innocent person, for goodness sakes? Terrorist, huh? I’ll kidnap YOU! How do you like them apples?

    If you were wrong about the threat America faced pre 9/11, you might just hold the point of view that equates real, live terrorists with some American you’d like to kidnap to prove your point. In the name of decency, of course…

    • Mr.Murder

      Cruel and Unusual Punishment? It proves they went to extraodrinary measures, so it is a pretty sound basis for starting from that point.

  • xax

    Your analogy is COMPLETELY off the wall. I understand that your trying to make some grand point by comparing torture to pedophilia but you lost some of your credibility with me on that statement.

    At any rate, no one has to agree with the tactics used. After reading the memos, I did not like the fact that they used physical force on them, but then I remind myself of who we are dealing with. Hitting someone may be wrong, but it does not qualify as torture for me. Shoot. I sometimes got beatings as child; is that torture? No. What about the person who got into a fight; is that torture?

    The key word in that snippet you produced was “severe”. After reading about caterpillers in boxes and throwing them against fake walls with neck cushions, even waterboarding- it hardly sounds like 24 or any of the other things they will do to US soldiers. In fact it looks as if they went to great pains to limit any long term mental and physical by researching methods, testing on our own people and even having physicians present to monitor activities.

    You can still say we shouldn’t do such things and that’s fine. As for me, knowing what they are capable of, I do not have a problem with it.

  • Texas Gal

    My husband’s uncle was captured in the Philippines during WWII (he was a Filipino freedom fighter). He survived the Bataan death march. He survived Japanese water torture. His captors would tie him up, toss him into a well, bring him up when he stopped moving, then revive him. Then throw him back in the well. This happened all day every day. My husband says his uncle was broken shell of a man afterwards.

    I’m on the fence on this one. It’s hard to compare what my husband’s uncle went through with what the Gitmo detainees experienced.

  • Madashell

    Renault: -I am shocked, shocked to find there’s gambling going on here!
    Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
    Torture is not new around here. Have you heard about a little place called School of the Americas? May be not, it changed its name some time ago.
    We trained some of the nastiest people this side of the Atlantic there. To torture. Among other things.
    See some of the exploits of the graduates along the years: http://www.soaw.org/article.php?id=205
    Oh, yeah. We were fighting Communism. Protecting the homeland. And we didn’t do it ourselves, we just told them how to do it, he, he,…

  • Katmoon-Adams

    From the perspective of a mother of a soldier, I prefer to abide by the Geneva Convention. I do not want there to be a quid pro quo development in torture, and yes I know soldiers or captives of whomever our enemy is will do what they will to whom they have captured. I wrote Senator McCain about this on my son’s first deployment and my concerns, and have not changed since. This may be a bit of a leap, but let me at least try; anyone remember, Pat’s article on “Rape Play”, and the discussion of desensitization? I think that same mentality is one that can abide the torture under the reasons we are discussing-no not accusing anyone of that here, I am saying if you relax your humanity reflex to the level and allow torture to harm, you are making covenants that may be turned against others in less dire need of information. We do have more intelligence and ability to obtain information than by these means, there are narcotics and decent networks in both the CIA and FBI and others I probably don’t know about, if they are allowed to do their job.

  • I’m a Linda too

    I sure aint saying it works.

    But, having said that, I find Weary Barry playing politics with the CIA and the issue in releasing the memos, claiming he did so because torture is wrong, but he has no intentions of pursuing the ones who ordered the torturing, disgusting.

    LJ can you ask Valerie and Joe Wilson how they feel that now we see a repeat of now putting the CIA, it’s interrogators and now methods that now be used on them, and our country, just for political red meat for his supporters and to take the heat off of him for all the ther other policies he is continuing after campaigning against them, how do they feel about this?

  • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

    I have seen many arguments here concerning torture with many presupposing either tacitly or outright that torture works. It does not. Anyone who is barbaric enough to be a terrorist is going to lie, if for no other reason than to make the captor chase wild geese. So along with being a barbaric practice, along with being un-American; and along with being immoral, it does not work.

    Further, we lose not only the moral high ground but become no better than the terrorists we are fighting. The terrorists win when we sacrifice our principles to fear. We have fought and beaten far deadlier enemies while not becoming like them. Moreover, we cannot turn our back on those who sacrificed, fought, shed their blood, and paid the ultimate price for the very principles being debated here today in this forum. We cannot win this war by becoming as our enemy and still retain our souls.

    I’m with Larry on this.

    • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

      The terrorists win when we put down our fight for liberty. The so called torture tactics have been exaggerated especially in light of what the terrorists do and did to our country. They are trying to destroy us. People like that can’t be reasoned with. I have yet to hear one single suggestion on how to deal w these evil people. Just defending them because a bug got put in their cell or they got some water in their face.

      And what in the world is more deadly than a terrorist? Our country has fought many wars using guns, and all kinds of deadly force. But we are debating the merits of what was done to these crazy ass people? Amazing…

  • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ American Girl in Italy

    I am a terrible waffler on this topic. I hear McCain talk about torture, and think about our Vietnam vets, and stand firmly in the no torture camp, ever. But, then I think back about the images I saw on 9/11, and remember wanting to drop a nuke in the middle of Osama bin Ladens house. Then I see shows like Lost, and images of Sayid in Iraq, and the torture tactics they used, and then am firmly against torture.

    I just watched A Mighty Heart about Daniel Pearl, and in the film they showed old news clips from Gitmo, and the terrorists who took Daniel blamed it, in part, on the treatment of prisoners at Gitmo.

    Now, that is bullshit, in my opinion, because this was 2002, and we had just been attacked, and we were looking for the people responsible. But they used the US treatment of prisoners against us, as propoganda. Regardless of the fact that we had been attacked, and were arresting the people who planned it.

    There is no rationalising with terrorists. They were able to use images against us, because we gave them those images. This is why I was against Obama releasing the torture memos, if he didn’t intend on prosecuting anyone.

    Now, some of the things outlined in the memos didn’t seem very torturous to me – a catepillar? Waterboarding I image is torture. And they are nothing compared to what *they* do. But, we are supposedly better than *them*.

    Those photos that came out a few years ago were shocking, and terrible. And they seemed to be designed more to humliate than torture, but I think they delivered more enemies then good intelliegence. I also lingered in the camp of – if they are going to do it, I don’t want to see it, or know about it – but that isn’t right either…

    We are a nation of laws, and no matter what we are fighting and how horrible some people are, we should obey our laws.

    • Katmoon-Adams

      I love your honesty. Well said.

  • Paula Revere

    Just curious…does anyone here care about AMERICANS? You know, the VICTIMS of the terrorists? I’m just confused. Our country is in big trouble and it seems that the left is only concerned with protecting murderers. Just imagine if all the energy everyone puts into protecting the rights of illegal aliens, murderers, terrorists, political prisoners, women beaters/murderers, rapists, etc. was used to make America better. If the people who blogged here all day about GOP and Bush hate would use 1 hour of that time to call their reps, and stop the insanity in DC GOING ON NOW, we might be in better shape. Wake up. The country is falling apart NOW. I know everyone is pissed at Bush and I get it. But I just wish people were concerned about saving our country from what is 1 Million times worse and happening as we merrily blog away.

    And, really, if you lost family on 9/11 you might stop giving so much love to terrorists. What is that about? We know WHY Obama loves these guys. But why would a normal, decent American put the safety and security of Americans BENEATH the rights of terrorists? Why does the left think we aren’t allowed to defend ourselves? You’ll be thinking otherwise in six months, trust me.

    • Katmoon-Adams

      Paula,

      of course everyone does, that is why they are posting. IT is a hard subject to discuss, but we all must, and not look upon each other as less because we have different beliefs, we have to work through these topics together, to try to understand, not alienate each other. I am not saying you are doing that, but we need to get into being able to discuss or we solve, nothing. My views haven’t changed, and bet most people’s haven’t either, regarding elected presidents, etc. I respect even the most difficult of discussions, provided we take a step back so we can all “hear” each other, no expectation of agreement, it is always good to hear and try to understand, things beyond the end of my own nose. We all love our country, yes, we all do, that is why we are all so passionate in our discussions. I know there is so much pain and anger from our loss on 911 and every soldiers family also knows that pain, as does each person down the line. I have no love of hate directed towards anyone in our country, even those who have called me racist and tea-bagger, or lowley redneck, etc… I would defend. They are my fellow Americans. What matters is that I can still want to hear, and with respect disagree, Amiga.

      • Paula Revere

        Katmoon…I love my country and want it to survive. It’s not going to if we don’t take some positive action and remember what a great nation we used to be. It’s not that I don’t want to join the Bush bashing sessions with glee. I know people here gripe at me because I won’t spend my days doing it, but I just don’t care. I got told it was my “civic duty” to do so today. WTF is that about? My civic duty, IMHO now, is to do what I can to stop Obama from destroying my country. My only point that I would join in the Bush bashing…what can we do about it? Do you REALLY think Bush and Cheney will get prosecuted? Hell no they won’t. It’s over and done with. I’m worried about what I CAN change and I can’t change Bush’s Presidency.

        I am just tired of America hate Katmoon. And watching people not give a damn about US. We’re paying through the nose for NOTHING whatsoever and being robbed blind. It gets a little touchy to hear that people are obsessed with giving terrorists money, reparations, free rides, migrating them here to the US, giving them welfare, social security, letting them walk among us. Why would anyone want that? Do you realize what our country is going to look like soon?

        I don’t want Castro letting more of his garbage in this country. Why would you? I don’t want to show terrorists love. They kill Americans. Period. For someone who loves their country to read something as VILE as blaming Daniel Pearl being beheaded on Americans and America? That’s just plain way too out there for me. These people have been murderous bastards for thousands of years, before America even existed. But, we’re supposed to embrace them and take the BLAME for their terrorism???? Wow.

        AS for “not looking at each other as less?” You are right. I don’t love getting the crap beat out of me because I have better things to do with my time than bash Bush. I deserve the same respect you are asking, right?

        • Katmoon-Adams

          I understand your point. I could never get my head around any culture, and they all have had their share of being cruel, and torturing. It doesn’t get uglier. I am one of those people for example who will try to watch, “The Tudors”, but cannot stomach even the screams to mimick torture for the sake of acting; I know pitiful. But, maybe it is because I have had my jaw broken, and been stabbed, and beaten and attacked, it was brutal and, and violent,and for no reason. That doesn’t mean I didn’t fight back, and it was an attack, a criminal act, and to me in that moment it felt like torture, my only baseline. Unfortunately that is where my head goes, and in either way, trying to imagine, the why’s about murdering Daniel Pearl, I cannot fathom the ugliness, and I do and have felt blood- thristy, wanting to grab someone up myself to protect, or retaliate for physical harm. so much seeing and knowing the horrors done to our own, yet there is some strange thing inside me I cannot describe beyond a “sick” feeling when my brain has the knowledge there is act of deliberate sadism. I can’t reason it and for my 50+ years on earth, I still don’t know what to call it. I guess I am saying my reasoning, is not in my head right now. SO much for trying to make sense> Thanks for letting me try to put that together.

          • Paula Revere

            Katmoon, first WTF happened to you and why? How awful. I am soooo sorry. You don’t, of course, have to talk about it but I’m just curious. It’s sort of an obsession of mine because I was going to be a criminal prosecutor early in life and I will NEVER understand the cruelty mankind can heap on its own.

            I can’t watch horror movies, or anything with graphic violence. I am appalled that people watch boxing, the WWE and the UFC. I’ve never seen ANY OF IT. Never. It upsets me way too much to think that people do that to EACH OTHER.

            The Daniel Pearl thing, and the many, many honor killings of innocent women in Islamic countries, etc. gets me soooo angry I can’t stand it. I want it to stop but they get to hind behind religion or their version of the law. But if FREAKS ME OUT and so does any kind of violence towards women.

            Maybe you are saying what happens to me…I get so angry and full of rage that his goes on, that I can’t HEAR sympathy for these murderous pigs. Society is a contract between people. If you obey the laws, you get your rights and freedoms. If you don’t, best of luck to you. I don’t want to protect these pieces of crap and I sure as hell do NOT want them migrated to this country. We have enough of it.

            • Katmoon-Adams

              It was an assault out of nowhere, many years ago. What is interesting is I know I would rather fight to the death than let myself be beaten and harmed that way again. And, I have to keep the monster inside myself in check, as just as I get sick inside regarding simulation of torture for acting sake, they are defenseless, chained or restricted, and cannot fight back. I also get angry in real life when I see an act of violence, it’s a visceral reaction, so I have this duality, that is part of who I am and not something I totally get, but am well aware I have to have my mind involved. It may just be a human reaction, or a learned one from my own experience. The same thing happens when I see an animal harmed, on purpose.

              I am studying law, and am very clear I have to steer far, far away from criminal law, my objectivity at times, is lacking to say the least.

              What has happened with so much of what we see and know about how humans can harm each other, travels faster and via more media than ever before, with an awareness of all cultures and histories of these tactics and behaviors. Differentiation is also difficult when the lines are so blurred. We have every right to defend ourselves, and to prevent harm to our country, damn straight, and we are some damned smart people, pretty clever over these past 200+ years, we can and must develop a means and a way to uphold our Constitution and be able to also protect it and ourselves, and still be able to know those means were deliberate, successful and worthy enough not to be hidden away.

              • Paula Revere

                I hear you. I gave up the criminal law thing when I was a volunteer in the Victim/Witness Unit of the District Attorney’s office. I did it here in LA for work study pre-Law at USC, and I did it in St. Louis, Missouri, where I am from because my attorney father started the Victim/Witness Program there. I had to stop. My father even got freaked and worried for me. I would look at the files, the pictures of the dead, beaten, stabbed, shot bodies and wonder how the hell this stuff happens. I couldn’t stop thinking about it. And I couldn’t rationalize WTF defense attorneys were doing.

                One case in particular haunted me forever…A guy who was a convicted murderer in Tennessee got out of jail after 10 years and moved to St. Louis. He got a job as a cab driver and ended up picking up this woman, going home with her, getting drunk and then stabbing her 136 times. He also shoved a broom so far up her rectum that it stopped her heart. Then he stabbed both of her daughters, 5 and 8, who survived and were found by a neighbor two days later. It was my job to be their Victim Advocate and it broke my heart. The 8 year old will never have children because the creep shoved the knife so far up her that he basically gutted her internally. That was enough for me. The guy was LET OUT of prison for the SAME CRIME in another state. Sorry, but he was a walking ad for the Death Penalty.

                I gave up the career in law, stopped working in the Victim Witness Program, although I just applied to volunteer again here in LA, and I will forever remember my cases. This is why I don’t think murderers should get a free ride. It’s appalling.

                • Katmoon-Adams

                  My God, there are no words. I’m going to continue to ponder this topic; and I want to thank you for letting me “hear” where you are coming from; it gives me perspective.

          • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

            I’m sorry you were subjected to violence. I have no sympathy for violent people. They need to be locked up. I knew someone once who was like that. Ended up going to prison years later. It’s very frightening. I’m so glad you are ok. Keep the faith.

            People don’t seem to understand a violent person is mentally ill. Whatever brought them to the place of harming innocent people, cannot be taken lightly nor can they be reasoned with . I just believe the “torture” meme has been exaggerated especially in light of what the terrorists did and their intent to take down on our country.

            Cripes, people need to wake up.

    • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

      well said Revere, was thinking the same thing. No reasoning w people who are taking the side of terrorists though. It’s pretty pathetic.

      • Paula Revere

        Yes Tom Cat you are right. You would think 9/11 taught people some stuff. But the Moonbats somehow made that one America’s fault too. Because we all conspire all day to kill our fellow Americans, and use radical Islamic terrorists to do our dirty work.

        These people will wake up. The next one will be huge. And when people lose their family members they will wonder why America didn’t help them and protect them. Well, it’s because they were to morally superior to protect their fellow Americans. Very pathetic.

  • Katmoon-Adams

    Somehow ended up in the rinse cycle, 2 posts

  • termo

    In the New York Times:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=1&hp

    “High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

    Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh.

    The reality is that this technique was not widely used and was selectively used with terrorists who had valuable information.

    Obama is playing a political game that is placing this country in danger because he cannot comprehend what his duties are as a Commander in Chief.

    At this point, you either release ALL information or release none of it. But Obama has chosen to take his orders from Moveon.org and Daily Kos and play political card tricks with something that is deadly serious.

  • Mr.Murder

    The current closing of Gitmo could be major. The contractors doing the actual torture as Geneva loopholes have a lobby trail to the GOP and Democratic hawks.

    Follow the Money.

    Gitmo’s closing would be huge because it would force us into new turf(outside of contingency plans to open a jail next to a Mariannas sweat shop, etc.) and we’d suddenly be forced to transport prisoners at stops with different interpretations of torture.

    This means we likely get stuck with them here in the US of A and suddenly criminal proceedings can drive additional discovery.

    The Conyers committee will end up giving free passes to torturers for testimony. This didn’t succeed with the Contra scandals of Oliver North.

    Be advised if you do this in committee and absolve the torturers and witnesses of guilt it makes you part to international crime. Your wanted pics might be up along those of Osama at the nearest int’l airport.

    Might want to upgrade your visa and keep an extra lawyer’s number in your lil’ black book….

  • Seattle Moss

    What we are learning tonight is that American lives are not worth as much as a terrorists lives.
    I have heard the arguments…

    Anyone of you who honestly believes that the rights of known terrorist are worth more than lives saved in this country has a lot pain coming.

    I really don’t give a damn anymore!!
    Cheney and Bush kept is safe and you will be finding all about it soon.
    Very embarrassing for all the Bush haters. You have put so much effort in seeing American national suicide just to be brought smack down to earth again by the facts which will show that countless Americans were saved.

    Seems like some folks around here have a problem with saving American lives.
    Go ahead obots because that’s what you are now for advocating investigations and following Obama’s surrender campaign. You know who you are and I will consider you Obama apologists .

    Cheney has the goods on all you revisionists!!

    You may get the politically correct world you are looking for but in it’s place America will be finished as a leader.

    • Paula Revere

      Hey Seattle! The left hates America and Americans. What do they care if we get killed? They’re busy hating the people who kept us from being blown off the planet. But, sigh, if we would just get by that ole campfire, break out the guitar, and sing Kumbaya to the terrorists they would stop. Really.

      Also, America is to blame for every act of terrorism in history. Even the wars that happened before America even existed. We’re also to blame for the Holy Wars of thousands of years ago, the crap in England and Ireland, etc. We are personally responsible for getting Daniel Pearl beheaded too, as well as the honor killings against women that the Islamic nuts commit! What shit America is. Wow, we really do deserve to be punished with 9/11 on an exponentially worse level. We deserve more, more, more destruction of our country. We should all be killed so that we can spare the terrorists any grief. After all, terrorists wouldn’t even exist without America’s arrogance, right? We suck. We really do. And if a terrorist wants to kill me, let him. I deserve it for being a scumbag American.

      Well, have I apologized enough? I mean, really, I know that Americans have no rights anymore. Not even the right to live and breath. Good thing is that the terrorists know it and they’re coming for us any day soon. Won’t the moonbats be thrilled? We will be so weak, finally, that we can’t retaliate. The moonbats will sing with joy. America has once and for all been reduced to the Third World status it deserves. Woot Woot Woot. Go MOONBATS. Take us down the toilet. We deserve to DIE.

      • Seattle Moss

        Hey Paula,
        You really have your head on straight!

        Pardon me while I exit the corral.. The herd is back and I don’t want to stick around to clean up all their shit..

        • Paula Revere

          Seattle…Not very gentlemanly of you to leave a gal here to scoop poop on her own LOL.

          • Seattle Moss

            Why don’t I just sweep you off your feet and get you away from this stockyard.
            Then neither one of us will have to clean up the poop.

            • Paula Revere

              5, 4, 3, 2, 1…hurry, incoming!!!! Let’s get the hell out of here before we’re completely surrounded…. :mrgreen:

      • Docelder

        This is why we need a third party without baggage to unite this nation. Else we are headed for a second civil war. Because right now, there is no practical reason for the red states to remain in union with the blue states. Patriotism and leadership was the glue which held this union together. That glue has been discontinued… nobody is making it anymore. We are fresh out of Ronald Reagans unfortunately.

        • Paula Revere

          Doc, you are so right about second civil war. In all of my years in this country I have never seen more fed up, pissed off people. But I don’t think there is time to form the Third Party before critical elections.

          • Seattle Moss

            Paula,
            That is why I chose The General who won the civil war
            Ulysess S. Moss

            USM…..United States Military

            I will moniker my full name again when I’m in a good mood….

            • Paula Revere

              Awww Seattle. Just get active and participate in the demise of the leftards in Congress and the White House. Do something every day, one thing, that saves this country. Tomorrow we have a rally about that BS increase of our taxes in CA. I’m planning to go, if I can push work for a few hours. Get that patriotic spirit rolling, and ignore the hate.

              • Ulysses S. Moss

                Tim Eyman the anti-tax crusader want’s me to do public speaking to talk lower property taxes.
                I’m looking into running against Jim McDermott for congress.

                I’m actively campaigning to preserve industrial lands and protect business.
                I’m getting involved with repelling any attempt at a state income tax

                Stopping The carbon tax will be my biggest effort in the years

                • Paula Revere

                  You GO USMoss! That’s the spirit. And, yeah, can you get us out of that carbon tax thing? What a frigging God awful mess that is. The Fraud’s energy “policy” is going to cost every American family thousands of dollars a year on energy bills. The Fraud SUCKS AZZZZZZZ….

                • Tom Cat “wodiej” Jefferson Esq

                  you’ve got my support Moss if you decide to do this.

                • TeakwoodKite
    • Paula Revere

      PS. Yes, Seattle, the little stunt with the declassified papers will backfire on the Moonbats. Americans aren’t as stupid as the left thinks. Many of them believe we have the right to defend ourselves.

      • Seattle Moss

        Cheney and Bush have taken a lot of hits by these arm chair revisionist haters.

        There is a reason the Bush is building the biggest think tank library in history.

        Obama’s got four rifled through memo’s…HaHa!!!

        Cheney and Bush have all the rest of the memo’s along with the full weight of the half billion dollar library and everything that actually took place.

        The haters are just about ready to be washed out like a bad tide…Always fun to watch!!

        • Paula Revere

          LMAO Seattle. You changed your name back??? Not feeling particularly patriotic?

          Yes, the arm chair revisionists have a thing or two coming. And none of us are entitled to our opinions, don’t you know.

          • Seattle Moss

            I’m just tired of playing games with those who want it both ways.
            If you are for investigations of those that kept us safe and you support the release of memo’s for political reasons then you are no better that Obama and his systematic surrender of this country to the world.

            • Paula Revere

              Double standards? You betcha’. Hypocrisy? Rampant.

            • Paula Revere

              Yes, USMoss, and some of the hypocrites who whine about Bush and Cheney are still perfectly fine being members of the Democratic Party, the party that chose to issue DEATH THREATS against delegates who wouldn’t change their votes to Obama. Double standard? You bet. I call DEATH THREATS a little terrorism, don’t you?

              • Ulysses S. Moss

                Paula,
                Question…

                If a person hates Obama for anything he does and hates Bush for everything he did then where is the room to embrace anything positive about your country.

                • Paula Revere

                  You got me USMoss. But I think what has to happen is the worst thing possible in the US so once and for all people appreciate the life they used to have. I really believe it will take the total destruction of this country before anyone thinks they had it way better than others.

    • ziggy

      In the world Cheney wanted, we could grab people off the streets based on suspicions; we could hold suspects secretly and indefinitely without charges; we could torture suspects to obtain information, and use information obtained by torture as evidence in secret tribunals without revealing its source the parties accused. In the name of protecting America, Cheney would have turned everything America stands for on its head. This isn’t just a matter of political correctness.

    • Elizabeth

      And you don’t think that the torture and abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo ended up recruiting MORE foreign fighters and suicide bombers who joined al Qaida soley to fight against Americans ??? How naive. Guantánamo and any system that looks like Guantánamo practically recruits itself for extremist groups.

      So kept US ‘safe’ I take to mean within our own borders alone. Bush miscalculated the situation in Iraq so badly that they died by the thousands there instead.

  • TeakwoodKite

    His truth track record sucks.

    … as well as his aim. To this day I wonder why Scalia would go hunting with him.

    Thanks Mr. Johnson.

    For the last two weeks, the right side of the dial has been pumping up the volume on the release of these CIA memo’s and how they give away “sources and methods”.
    I listen to Radio Jocks say that water boarding is not “torture”.

    Even BO is vacillating. According to BO, those “givers” are not to be exposed to prosecution and kicks the can down the street to the DOJ on the those that violated the public trust, the US Constitution and numerous treaties for those like Bybee that were tools themselves.

    If John Yoo writes a memo saying x y or z is legal and grants implicit immunity to the “givers”, is it not the legal obligation of those given an unlawful order to refuse?

    And if they don’t refuse, what is the legal difference between Hermann Göring’s role in the “final solution” and John Demjanjuk as a concentration guard?

    • so saddened

      hi kite,

      re your point about a memo saying x or y or z is legal – isn’t the big zero basically saying he’ll prosecute lawyers for their opinions, but not the torturers? i realize the big zero spent very little time actually practicing law, but even a new associate knows that one’s legal opinion is based on one’s best analysis of a lot of contradictory information.

      to prosecute someone for getting it “wrong” opens the world’s biggest pandora’s box, doesn’t it? somehow, i don’t think the big zero would like to be held accountable for his own mistakes in evaluating the legality of certain actions, nor would his pals. especially given the highly questionable nature of so many of their actions.

      • TeakwoodKite

        When Blackwater or the other “contractors” did the dirty work, and it was argued that they did not fall under the jurisdiction of US law, and could not be prosecuted, they all walked.

  • indiedogg

    You’re a good guy, Larry. I read your words and respect your efforts.

    But, there’s a reason for the phrase, “Analogy is the weakest form of argument.”

    Because it is. And, in this case, you did it, no doubt, to attract attention. Great headline, if you’re looking for headlines.

    “Let’s throw “Pedophilia” up on the screen — that should get their attention.”

    Well, it did. It got my attention, but for all the wrong reasons. Not only a cheap trick on your part but a false analogy without application to the subject at hand.

    Deal with the subject. Argue it on it’s points. I think you’re more than capable of doing that. It’s only out of weakness or desperation for attention that one resorts to hyperbole and sensationalism to bolster a position.

    The lead in to this “article” if you can call it that belongs on the cover of a super-market smut sheet or one of the Brits pride and joys, the muck rags.

    You’re better than this, Larry.

    And, you have plenty of points to make on the merits of the “morality of torture” argument (or the “legality” point as well) without resorting to mongering to the mongrels to get a web hit.

    Very disappointed in you.

  • elise

    Mr Johnson, I’ve been reading the first memo (chronologically) released by the CIA and it concerned one prisoner,Abu Zubadyah, The memo is from a DOJ attorney to the legal counsel of the CIA re enhanced interrogation of Zubadyah, who the Bush administration described as the number three man in al qaeda. The approved techniques included:
    sleep deprivation for up to 7 days,confinement to a small box with insects for 2-4 hours at a time, facial slaps,walling,stress positions,facial hold, wall standing and waterboarding Permission was given to continue these techniques for up to thirty days.

    According to the history of this man, he had been severly wounded while fighting with the mujaheddin against the Soviet Union and had an impaired memory prior to his capture. After days of torture he began confessing to planning to bomb malls, the Statue of Liberty, the Brooklyn Bridge and just about everything else in the US. It was useless intelligence and it was discovered he wasn’t an important member of Al Qaeda and never had been because of his mental problems. The tapes of his interrogation have been destroyed in direct defiance of a court order. Jane Harman was the only member of the Intelligence Committee, after being briefed, to object in a letter written to the CIA. So is someone trying to set her up now because of her objection then? Was she the target of the wiretaps?

  • viking

    Well, I just read through all 208 comments. Here’s my take:

    The interrogation techniques revealed to the press are not “torture”, they’re psychological levers. The release of that information has now rendered those techniques useless.

    Because those techniques are now useless, we’re going to have to come up with new ones that will be more psychologically harrowing (we do, after all, need the information and merely asking for it does not yield results).

    Contemplating, much less effecting, investigations/prosecutions of our own officials is a gross error which will inhibit if not destroy the will to defeat the threat, even if you opine that the acts are immoral.

    And LJ, threatening kidnapping? Sheesh, don’t be such a bully.

    • elise

      Read the memos themselves, viking. Confinement in a small box, sleep deprivation up to 7 days, wall standing, forced nudity, walling (throwing against a wall), facial grasp, face slapping, extreme cold, loud music, waterboarding up to twenty minutes continued up to thirty days. You read all the comments including my last post about Zubadyah?

      • http://sarainitalyblog.blogspot.com/ sarainitaly

        if they are 100% sure that the people they are using these techniques on are guilty and have knowledge, I can’t say I am against them using them…(Like in the Daniel Pearl film, they knew one guy was guilty and they harshly interrogated him and i can’t say it bugged me)

        My major issue is doing these things on people they suspect of being guilty, like in the movie Rendition. The guy was innocent, and they held him and treated him like this for two years. And he was innocent.

        Another thing I liked about the film Mighty Heart was to see how hard the Pakistan Captain and Karachi police worked to find Daniel.

    • Elizabeth

      we do, after all, need the information and merely asking for it does not yield results).

      It doesn’t ? Are you a member of the intelligence community or a counterterrorism expert or something ? Explain then how some of al Qaeda’s toughest operatives, including their Iraqi leader al-Zarqawi, were brought down using cultural understanding and brainpower over brute force to tease out information ??

      http://www.amazon.com/How-Break-Terrorist-Interrogators-Brutality/dp/1416573151

      • viking

        Elizabeth,

        I did a quick review of the book you linked. The book establishes that our military obviously utilizes a variety of techniques both ‘old school’ and ‘new school’, as the book apparently defines them.

        The book does not appear to claim that there is no place for ‘old school’ techniques, only that there are circumstances where ‘new school’ techniques do work. I’ve got no problem with that. Its worth noting though that the individual highlighted in the book was apparently not a true-believer-jihadist but a guy trying to earn extra money in order to afford an adulterous relationship outside his marriage.

        Because his apparent motivation in making bombs which were used in suicide attacks was monetary rather than ideological do you believe ‘old school’ tactics wouldn’t have worked or just that they would not be unwarranted?

        Also, the book does not appear to address time sensitive circumstances. In order for ‘new school’ techniques to yield results, a relationship must be developed which necessarily requires time, and lots of it. That’s fine, when you’ve got the time.

  • viking

    Yes Elise, I fully understand from all your comments that you find these techniques reprehensible. Reasonable minds can differ on just how god awful they are and that’s without even weighing in the possibility of valuable information resulting. The world does need people like you in a civilized society, no argument.

    But I think you might also consider that when that very same society is credibly threatened with destruction, the world needs people who can handle dealing with the unsavory aspects in order to preserve it.

    • Tom Cat “wodie j” Jefferson Esq

      But I think you might also consider that when that very same society is credibly threatened with destruction, the world needs people who can handle dealing with the unsavory aspects in order to preserve it.

      Well said. I don’t believe these evil people intent on destroying our country and the people in it, are going to willingly talk without any type of “encouragement”. You’ve got to be kidding me folks. What would be their purpose for doing that and jeopardizing their mission?

      All I hear is a bunch of hoopla about how awful this is for these crazy, evil bastards but no alternative for gleaning information that can save our country. Lest we forget, the United States of America has freed and liberated millions of people everywhere because we used force.

      Maybe just taking away their Koran would be enough motivation for them to talk. Or would that be considered torture too?

      • Elizabeth

        We’re not hard nosed enough for you ? Maybe the account of an American Air Force major interrogator in Iraq who actually used dialogue and confidence-building approaches to great success will be more persuasive.

        http://harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004036

        4. You describe members of your team saying that Al Qaeda members did not care about their families, that they were committed ideologues. This was taken as a justification for the use of coercion (usually fear) as the key tool for interrogation. But most counterterrorism experts agree that recruits to radical Islamist groups may be brought in by many factors other than ideology—clan-based affiliations, family, a motive of revenge–even a desire to make some money. It would obviously be vital for an interrogator to get a fix on motivation in forming an approach to getting a prisoner to talk. Does that suggest that American interrogators are being hindered by a politically shaped and unnecessarily crude understanding of the adversary?

        Yes. We do ourselves a great disservice by stereotyping our enemies. Al Qaeda is comprised of a variety of individuals each with their own unique motivations for having joined. I can only remember one true ideologue in all the interrogations I conducted or supervised (more than 1,300) and even he started to come around at the end because we treated him with respect. The overwhelming majority of Sunni Iraqis who joined Al Qaeda did so out of need, not want. For some the reason was economic, for others tribal obligations, and for a large number it was for protection from the Shiite militias–the militias that we allowed, after the removal of Saddam, to conduct reprisal killings. When my group of interrogators reached out to these Sunnis and offered them an alternative to fighting against us –fighting with us–they were easily convinced to cooperate and rejected Al Qaeda. Sometimes all it took was an apology from an American for the mistakes we made at the beginning of the war. General David Petraeus proved this point by facilitating the Anbar Awakening. Interrogations are best conducted in the spirit of cooperation and negotiation, not domination and retribution. This is a metaphor for how we should use all of our instruments of power in fighting this war.

        • viking

          Elizabeth,

          I addressed these points in my previous comment to you. You might check it out.

          • Elizabeth

            Sorry I didn’t notice that. :) But being at work now, it can’t be handled anyway. Hopefully someone else will jump in and also address another great comment Matthew Alexander made in that interview.

            The number-one reason foreign fighters gave for coming to Iraq to fight is the torture and abuse that occurred at Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo. The majority of suicide bombings are carried out by foreign fighters who volunteered and came to Iraq with this motivation. Consequently it is clear that at least hundreds but more likely thousands of American lives (not to count Iraqi civilian deaths) are linked directly to the policy decision to introduce the torture and abuse of prisoners as accepted tactics. Americans have died from terrorist attacks since 9/11; those Americans just happen to be American soldiers. This is not simply my view–it is widely held among senior officers in the U.S. military today. Alberto Mora, who served as General Counsel of the Navy under Donald Rumsfeld, testified to the Senate Armed Services Committee in June 2008 that “U.S. flag-rank officers maintain that the first and second identifiable causes of U.S. combat deaths in Iraq–as judged by their effectiveness in recruiting insurgent fighters into combat–are, respectively the symbols of Abu Ghraib and Guantánamo.” We owe it to our troops to protect them from terrorist attacks by not conducting torture and we owe it to our forefathers to uphold the American principles that they passed down to us.

            • Ulysses S. Moss

              Iraq was the magnet that attracted the foreign/alqueda terrorists.
              Terrorists are like shadows and hard to flush out.

              Because they came to Iraq they were prevented in carrying out attacks on western interests elsewhere.

              I’m glad to see that many terrorists fought our great military in Iraq and lost.

  • Carol HAKA

    Closing Gitmo? – Nancy and her friends need to take a bunch of them in San Francisco. Oprah has room at her $50 million dollar house in Santa Barbara. Obama has half a lot next to his house in Chicago that is empty. Ted can move some of them up to the summer homes in the Hamptons. And the left overs can stay at Penn’s house.

    See how easy that was? Now we have cleared out Gitmo.

    CAROL HAKA :evil:

    • Paula Revere

      Carol…LMAO. Yes, they should all take in the terrorists. But, instead, we will welcome them to America, give them shelter, money, food, education and health benefits, all so they can murder more Americans. See how compassionate we are? I’m proud.

  • dm

    Well, all I can say is personally I’m sure I could go all “Jack Bauer” on someone, if they were threatening my family’s well being. Not saying I condone it, but I’m not going to say that just because it is illegal or immoral that it should never be used. Officially, outlawing torture must be public policy. However, I could easily see situations where policy could (and possibly should) get thrown out the window. jmo.

  • NomNomNom

    Fantastic article thanks for this!

    “No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . .

    An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

    What is it about English that the torture advocates do not understand? It does not matter a good goddamn whether it is effective or not. It is illegal.
    Period. No exceptions.”

    Exactly. It’s wonderful to hear someone stand up and say it.

    Also it’s not just pedophilia that “works”, but also rape & wife-beating.

  • viking

    Some of us disagree that the techniques at issue constitute “torture” and that’s a worthy debate to have.

    • Not in my name

      What less distressing word should we all agree to use in the history books, instead of “torture”?

      What American-as-apple-pie euphemism should we apply to official interrogation techniques that have resulted in a body count?

      • viking

        I’m not utilizing euphemisms. I simply don’t agree with you and some others that these techniques constitute “torture”.

        To my mind, torture requires actual physical damage. For example, the use of electric current, rape, sodomy, beatings, cuttings, etc. constitute “torture”.

        • Not in my name

          5 people died while we were using “enhanced interrogation techniques” on them. I believe death might be characterized as actual physical damage–even when clear signs of physical trauma are absent.

          The most extreme levels of pain and terror can be inflicted upon a human being without leaving marks. An absense of marks makes it no less “torture” to do so.

          • viking

            Link to the 5 deaths “caused” by interrogation techniques, please. Also, I didn’t mention anything about an absence of marks.

            • Not in my name

              misc. autopsy findings:

              http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/

              ———-

              “Brutal interrogation techniques by U.S. military personnel are being investigated in connection with the deaths of at least five Iraqi prisoners in war-zone detention camps, Pentagon documents obtained by The Denver Post show.”

              http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_0002157003

              ———-

              “In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates’ Deaths”

              http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html?_r=1

              ———–

              “U.S. Military Says 26 Inmate Deaths May Be Homicide”

              http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/16/politics/16abuse.html

              • viking

                You fail to see the distinctions which are plainly laid out in all these articles. All these links report that the military investigated, charged and prosecuted those who committed homicide. How do you get from our military/intelligence officers prosecuting homicide to U.S. sponsored torture?

                There is nothing in any of these articles that even hints that the beatings which caused the deaths were approved interrogation techniques. Sloppy, sloppy analysis.

                • Not in my name

                  You’re suggesting these are cases of torture gone wrong, because it wasn’t conducted by our cadre of highly trained torture professionals?

                  • viking

                    No. The articles report that individuals committed beatings which resulted in the death of one, possibly two, individuals. Those beatings were unlawful and the individuals responsible were properly identified and prosecuted.

                    You fail to distinguish between unlawful battery resulting in murder and approved interrogation techniques. The article itself fails, sloppily so, to clearly state the distinction but its plainly there in black and white. None of the unlawful acts were approved, condoned or tolerated. Those acts were investigated prosecuted and punished.

                    • Not in my name

                      The “approved interrogation techniques” were every bit as unlawful as the beatings that resulted in death, the exposures that resulted in death, the chokings that resulted in death, etc. You’re suggesting some of this was proper and lawful and some was not. None of it was lawful. That’s the entire point. It’s all the same evil bullshit.

                    • viking

                      Au contraire,

                      I read the legal opinions shortly after they were published a few years ago. Back then, I disagreed with the Bush admin about Iraq, etc. but their legal opinions in support of these measures were not specious arguments. As much as it annoyed me at the time, I had to concede that their arguments were cogent.

                      You are free to disagree with their legal opinions and argue one of your own but the point is, reasonable minds may differ over the arguments and supporting jurisprudence. That cannot and does not equate with illegality, sorry.

                    • ziggy

                      In what sense are the legal arguments cogent? They’re bullshit opinions based upon the same sort of tortured parsing of definitions that Nazi awyers once used to twist law into a mockery of itself. The result is the justification of something completely contrary to our fundamental principles. When you observe such a result, you know there’s something wrong with the logical steps that got you there.

                      “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.” That’s from Article Five of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights adopted by the United Nations General Assembly. The United States is a signatory.

                      We’ve also got The Eighth Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States, which has been understood to clearly proscribe torture since the nation was founded.

        • Elizabeth

          There are 19 interrogation techniques that are used by the military and spelled out in the Army Field Manual. It was rewritten in 2006 to reflect (or reiterate) compliance with the Geneva Conventions. Those are the tactics that are authorized by international law and should be the only ones used by the US govt. It should also be the only standard for interrogating prisoners with the CIA.

          • shadow

            They determined that Al-Quaeda are not covered by the Geneva convention. Apparently, two weeks ago an Al-Quaeda was captured and had a cell phone. The CIA was not called in and he was turned over to the military. This was reported on TV.

          • viking

            …when we’re engaged in a symmetrical military action against another recognized nation-state who is also a signatory, sure. Al quaeda, Hamas, Hizbollah, etc. are not nation-states and our engagement with them is anything but symmetrical.

            By the way, the rabble rousers who kicked Britain out a few hundred years ago often utilized unheard of guerrilla tactics.

      • andrew jackson 191

        How about “Post term abortion”.

        • viking

          andrew,

          That took a couple minutes for me to get it, pretty funny in a macabre way!

  • Sassy

    A disgusting caption for disgusting acts!
    At this stage of my life, it is apparent that persons of honor are in short supply!
    That breaks my heart, and I grieve for the loss of this country’s integrity!
    I will not expect to find it in another politician, but hope that there are still enough people who will bite the bullet, stand tall, and say hell no!

  • Baba Rum Raisin

    Cheney?

    Fuck his opinion, him and the horse he dodged Service in Vietnam on.

    Believe his shit?

    Sorry. I Have Other Priorities.

  • Jules

    Larry, in your example, you are equating “young children” used for sexual gratification to the terrorist suspects being “tortured”. These two are by no means equivalent. I think people can debate all day what the definition of torture is. To me waterboarding is not torture. Having ones head sawed off is torture.