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Tyler Drumheller on Torture

Tyler Drumheller had a distinguished career in the CIA and was chief of the CIA’s covert operations in Europe at the time that the Bush administration was cooking the facts to justify going to war against Iraq. Since he was in Europe, he had intimate knowledge of the infamous “Curveball,” being held in Germany, and who the Bush administration chose to believe. Drumheller was in direct contact with the German operatives who were holding Curveball, and knew about the unreliability of his information. Last year, Drumheller appeared on the “60 Minutes” feature on Curveball. He is also a good friend of Larry Johnson’s. Here he is Friday on Hardball:

Visit msnbc.com for Breaking News, World News, and News about the Economy

Tyler Drumheller wrote a hell of a book on the infamous “Curveball,” the Iraqi who supposedly had the goods on Saddam’s WMDs. I have his book, and it is a GREAT READ.

I was astonished by the story of Drumheller’s efforts — he was then head of the CIA’s operations in Europe — to prevent the White House and CIA from making the disastrous mistake of using Curveball’s made-up information in Colin Powell’s speech to the United Nations. He sent urgent cables to all involved. Then he listened to Powell speak, and was sickened by what he heard.

onthebrinkOn the Brink: An Insider’s Account of How the White House Compromised American Intelligence

Review: The highest ranking CIA official yet to write a book about the current war in Iraq, retired officer Drumheller looks back on his 25 years in intelligence to lay bare the Bush administration’s push toward invasion and its long-term impact on U.S. intelligence gathering capabilities. Central to Drumheller’s argument is the familiar story of the White House’s reliance on the testimony of an Iraqi defector (who came to be known as “Curveball”) in making its case for war; to that effect, there’s much here that simply reiterates the critical chorus that “policy was shaping the intelligence and not the other way around,” as do numerous recent Iraq war exposés. More interesting are the glimpses of well-known milestones in the run-up to the war, including a late-night call from CIA Director George Tenet the night before Colin Powell’s infamous UN address, at which he presented Curveball’s testimony on an Iraqi bioweapons program. With this story and others, Drumheller illustrates how the Bush administration left the CIA scrambling to clean up the ensuing mess when they should have been pursuing new threats: “The biggest difference between the current transition period and those in the past is that we are facing the added challenge of fighting off abuse and being made scapegoats by our political masters.” Drumheller’s book is a lucid account of the Bush administration’s intelligence breakdown, hobbled only by its late arrival to the shelf.

  • John Smith

    The fact that he was on Hardball does not speak highly of him. I would think that by now people who want to be take seriously would not appear on MSNBC.

    • rw

      good point.

    • TeakwoodKite

      After thinkin on it a most of the day, as I planted an Avacado tree and a fruit tree this afternoon;
      …the fruit is where you find it.

      John Smith and rw, have you read this mans book?
      The only book I have read that has more redactions in it was Mrs Wilson’s. (read, things the CIA does not want you to know but something a person with 35 years of experience under his belt would like to tell you.) Who gives a crap what MSM channel he is on. Maybe if these frakin corporations started interviewing more persons who knew what they are talking about more often, we be able to cut through all the BS the MSM shovels.

      Even compensating for this troublesome habit of the CIA, when Drumheller speaks, my advice to you both is, you might want to listen.

      Tingle can suck my toe as far as I’m concerned. Mr. Drumheller credibility is beyond reproach regardless of the forum.

    • Baba Rum Raisin

      If I had a book to sell, I’d appear on “Romper Room” to hawk it.

  • mountainaires

    He should go on any program in order to tell the truth about what happened, in my view, though I don’t watch Hardball. I imagine it is painful to those in the intelligence community to be blamed by war criminals like Bush and Cheney for a “failure of intelligence” when it was the perversion of intelligence, and the politicization of the intelligence which was the real crime.

    OT but relevant to Bush/Cheney crimes of perverting intelligence to exploit fears:

    Torturing the Truth
    It’s time to face the ugly reality about the use of harsh interrogation tactics
    Steve Chapman | April 23, 2009

    http://www.reason.com/news/show/133047.html

  • Tricia Spiegel

    Thanks Susan UnPC. It’s difficult, but I am trying to follow all of what is coming out about our torture policy. This was helpful.

    Yes, “On the Brink” is a great read. Highly recommended.

  • mountainaires

    The Paradox of Law: The Past as Prologue

    WE must protect the integrity of our system of government. We can survive terrorist acts but we cannot survive the collapse of the rule of law.

    http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2009/04/24/the-paradox-of-law-the-past-as-prologue/

    • Ferd Berfle

      We can survive terrorist acts but we cannot survive the collapse of the rule of law.

      I agree.

  • JohnnyB

    Thanks Susan:

    It all comes down to “Who’s the boss”.

    Many people knew the “curveball” info was based on lies, and that the Niger story was false, but they did not stand up to the BOSS. The Boss has to go down. That is both Bush and Cheney, they are the BOSS. How does this come about? War crimes tribunal at The Hague. That’s the only way.

  • Mandelay

    We can survive terrorist acts but we cannot survive the collapse of the rule of law.

    What happens when the terrorists get their hands on some nukes? How many will survive? These enemies are not soldiers in a specific army from a specific country. They are terrorists. Suicide-bombing, beheading, stone-the-women and turn-the-children into killers terrorists. Organized and highly trained. They have no honor. They do not deserve the courtesy of the Army Field Manual. They are terrorists.

    As for the rule of law, let’s take a close look at our gigantic prison population, as an example, and how we lock away so many in a violent environment to be raped (or converted to the terror “army”). Imagine if the Geneva Convention applied to these places.

    Many people, media outlets and great thinkers are leaving no stone unturned to “get” certain people from the previous administration. It’s a powerful distraction from the actions of the current clown in the Oval Office and it’s also a great way to use the “rule of law” to accomplish what is really an old-fashioned lynch mob. The ironies are endless.

    I don’t see honor, character, and patriotism on this horizon. Just a tree with a rope.

    • Ferd Berfle

      What happens when the terrorists get their hands on some nukes? How many will survive?

      So now torturing will stop a nuclear attack by terrorists. Good grief. Using your logic, why stop at torture? Here’s an idea, why don’t we just nuke the Middle East until it glows and throw a few down in Afghanistan and Pakistan, just for good measure because those omnipotent terrorists are behind every nook and cranny. Then let’s declare was on nooks and crannies.

      For Christ sake, this isn’t the end of the world and we’ve dealt with far more deadly adversaries. We need to use our brains and not our brawn to fight these terrorist morons.

      • http://www.marklevinshow.com Seattle Moss

        For Christ sake, this isn’t the end of the world and we’ve dealt with far more deadly adversaries.

        I couldn’t disagree with you more Ferd.

        The rise of the Individual to power levels equal to that of Sovereign nations is unprecedented in Human history.

        • Ferd Berfle

          I don’t see these terrorists as anything other than what they are-punks. Had we dealt with bin Laden in 2001, we wouldn’t be having this discussion now. I stand by my previous statements-we become them when we stoop to their level. You might think that is justified but I don’t. They don’t scare me and won’t cause me to change how I live. I salute them with the middle finger. Screw the terrorists and the camels they rode in on.

      • oowawa

        Ferd, I agree with you. As far as “torture” goes, this is what I was taught as a child, and this is what I still believe:

        The bad guys torture.
        The good guys don’t.

        As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of the discussion.

        • Ferd Berfle

          That’s the end of the discussion.

          You said, oowawa. Just when did we take off our white hats and don the black ones?

      • Mandelay

        This enemy is different from any other we’ve ever fought.

        • rjj

          I would like to hear about the enemies Mandelay has fought before.

      • Mandelay

        This enemy is unlike any other we’ve ever fought. They will stop at nothing to destroy us. We should stop at nothing to eliminate them.

        • Ferd Berfle

          So you will become the animal you so despise. I feel sorry for you.

          My father and his brothers fought a much worse adversary in the Nazis. You must think that was some sort of cakewalk. They were made of much sterner stuff than most Americans are now, who whine if they can’t drive a sherman tank of an SUV to the grocery store or if they have to wait 5 minutes in traffic.

          Don’t kid yourself into believing the crap Cheney the Coward and Bush the Lesser told us. They had/have an agenda and it doesn’t center around what is best for the US or its people. If it were, bin Laden would be in a pine box, six-feet under.

          However, if you insist on believing those two liars, then:

          If this war on terror is so god damn important because these terrorists are the WORST enemy we’ve ever fought, then start the draft and let’s get moving. No fucking exceptions or deferments. Everyone goes in, man or woman, just like in Israel. And your term of service doesn’t end with just 6 years. Anyone who doesn’t serve, can’t serve in public office, either.

          And because we are fighting an enemy who makes all their money from oil, we’re going to start rationing–just like in WWII. There won’t be any more business as usual. The entire country will gear itself towards the single purpose of defeating the terrorists. That will be the sole focus of each and every day until the enemy is defeated.

          And while those who cannot fight are at home manning the industries of war to meet the needs of those doing the fighting, these millions of soldiers will be invading those all those nooks and crannies wherever the terrorists may be and will face these big, bad terrorists and take them on in the way that wars have been fought for millenia: face-to-face. None of that torture shit. It is you, your weapon, and your target.

          Any takers? At 52, I’ll serve again just to keep the Constitution intact because at the end of the day, it is the only thing that truly separates us, the US, from every other country on this planet.

          Here’s your challenge, Mandelay: Write your Congressmen, Senators, and POTUS and let them know that it is time for the draft; time to put a stop to the assault on our way of life by a group of rag-tag Middle Easterners. Tell them that you’ll volunteer because this adversary is so bad, we’ll have to dismantle the Constitution over it if we don’t.

          The same goes for the rest of you who find torture so acceptable because of the danger of terrorists. Put your life on hold, your money where your mouth is, and get your backsides in uniforms and shut up.

          • oowawa

            At 52, I’ll serve again just to keep the Constitution intact because at the end of the day, it is the only thing that truly separates us, the US, from every other country on this planet.

            Powerful statement, Ferd. And at 65 . . . well, at 65 I have this reccurring dream that I’m back in he USMC. I look around at all the strapping young recruits and wonder–”What in the hell am I doing here? I can’t do this anymore!” And yet, and yet, I would serve again if called. They taught us how to fight in the Marines; there weren’t any classes on torture.

            • Ferd Berfle

              well, at 65 I have this reccurring dream that I’m back in the USMC. I look around at all the strapping young recruits and wonder–”What in the hell am I doing here? I can’t do this anymore!” And yet, and yet, I would serve again if called. They taught us how to fight in the Marines; there weren’t any classes on torture.

              Spot on. I still have recurring dreams that I’m back in Wildflecken on that rock looking over at the GDR border, wondering when comrade Breznhev would order the tanks through the Fulda Gap. Like, you, I would serve again, if called. But it better be damn important because I don’t have the luxury of time for any foolishness.

            • Ferd Berfle

              I responded but got caught in either the rinse or spin cycle, not sure which. At any rate, you are spot on. I’d serve again, too, if called but it had better be damn important as I don’t have time for foolishness.

            • Ferd Berfle

              I’ve tried to no avail to respond. I’ll try again: You are spot on and I’d serve again, too, if I were called. That is what separates patriots from talkers.

            • arran Madison

              We are proud of you two’s service to this country (and all readers here with military service). This country doesn’t honor you enough nor does it always remember with respect. I have learned that many veterans are a loyal group who never forget their own and those who have fallen.

              Pity on us if we forget.

              • oowawa

                Thank you, arran. We cannot lose the moral center of the country. We are the “good guys,” and we cannot become the “bad guys” in the course of fighting the “unspeakably evil guys.” We can prevail, because we control the moral high ground, and we are willing to fight for it and defend it. At least, I hope we still are!

              • Ferd Berfle

                Thanks, Arran.

          • Mandelay

            Anything is possible. Perhaps Al-Quaeda will sign on to the Geneva Accords. Or, one day, surrender. But it will not happen. Never. They will continue to recruit, train, wait for the next opportunity. Rag tag Middle Easterners? They have plenty of money to take jetliner flying lessons, make all sorts of bombs, and train with powerful equipment. If America’s “image” suffers as a result of stopping them, that’s fine with me. After I saw with my own eyes what happened in my city on 9-11-01, I no longer care about “image.” The clown in the Oval Office will take care of “image.” It’s what he does best.

            • Ferd Berfle

              I disagree with your assessment but for the sake of expediency, let’s assume you are correct. We need the draft, then. Write your elected officials and demand it. Then sign up, youself.

              If not, then you’re blowing smoke and hot air. You cannot have it both ways. Either it is as dire as you say or it is bullshit. ‘ll call anyone else on this as well. If this is so bad that we have to torture people, then we must mobilize just as in WWII and take care of it.

              ==|crickets|==

          • propertius

            The same goes for the rest of you who find torture so acceptable because of the danger of terrorists. Put your life on hold, your money where your mouth is, and get your backsides in uniforms and shut up.

            Amen. I’ll listen to chickenhawks like Bush and Cheney when I see their daughters in BDUs carrying M-16s in Baghdad (and not in the Green Zone, either) or Fallujah. Ann Coulter and Rush Limbauigh should sign up, too.

            • Benjamin Franklin Berfle

              Amen

    • QUEENIE

      reply to Mandelay :

      You lead by example..you lead by following the “RULE OF LAW” for everyone..no one excluded!

      When you lead with rule of law for all..you can not be used for false propaganda for terrorists.

      Can you stop all forms of terrorism..no , no one in history ever has! But history repeats itself when one ignores it!..to their own peril and when a nation builds terrorists up or nefarious “leaders” that support crimes our leaders are committing..we will be assured a payback..even if we the citizens don’t know about it…because the citizens of the nations we hurt and destroy , and kill and pilfer..they will have long memories..and they will attack us back…maybe not today or tommorrow..but they will pay us back in time. Even if we the people don’t know those crimes are being committed in our name!

      Now when the crimes against others gets ignored by us..we become the propaganda fodder for the terrorists..for recruitment ..of a people we have hurt or killed family members of , or destroyed their lives in one way or another.

      History tells us this..unless you choose to ignore History.

      ..from a now retired flight crew of one of the Airlines attacked on 9/11..NYC base

      • Mandelay

        I deeply respect you and your opinion and I honor the bravery of your comrades from the airlines. Do not doubt that my love of this country is as fierce as your own. Like Lincoln, I believe the preservation of this country is even more important than the Constitution.
        This enemy is different. They have no laws, they sign no treaties, they do not care what we do or do not do. They will continue to come at us. They have a cause to believe in and a mission to carry out. They have faith and they are not afraid to die for their cause.
        Our destruction — whether it is blowing up our buildings or collapsing our communications or other systems or infecting our populations with contagious disease or poisoning our food and water — our destruction is dear to their hearts. It is their reason to live.
        They are not soldiers. They are terrorists. They have no right to be treated like soldiers who are P.O.Ws. They are terrorists. The world should put terrorists on notice that they will be treated differently. That would be leading by example, I believe.
        Peace to you.

    • TeakwoodKite

      They do not deserve the courtesy of the Army Field Manual. They are terrorists.

      Mandaley, I agree. But owing to fact that you are assuming they are either dead or captured, what the difference?

      BO is a clown from no circus I have ever known.

  • arran Madison

    What disturbs me after reading “Enhanced interrogation techniques” (wikipedia) would be too long to list here.

    I’ll mention two items: interrogation videos, and most likely *anything* connected to interrogations, have been under orders to be destroyed, and the adm adopted Detainment Treatment Act 2005, but Bush added a signing statement that he reserved the right to waive this bill if he thought that was needed.

    I doubt Bush and Cheney will be investigated. Their defense will continue to be that they were upholding their Constitutional duty to protect the nation from attack. After Clarke’s alarming memo, August, 2001, to Bush that attack on the US was imminent, they can hardly claim they weren’t warned and that they kept us safe on their watch.

    Hell, we intuitives know about possibilities, but no one believes us!

    • Ferd Berfle

      Excellent points, Arran.

    • propertius

      Their defense will continue to be that they were upholding their Constitutional duty

      The oath the President takes is to “preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.”[emphasis mine]

      How does violating the Constitution preserve, protect, and defend it?

      If anyone really thinks that “enhanced interrogation” has made us safer, then maybe he ought to read this:

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/torture-it-probably-killed-more-americans-than-911-1674396.html

      Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib have been the most effective recruiting tools Al Quaeda could’ve asked for.

  • arran Madison

    And, pre-9/11, officials could have taken seriously that Texas man who reported that, in his flying school, a group of Arabs weren’t interested in learning how to “take-off”, but only in landing the planes. (from my memory, don’t have a link)

  • arran Madison

    We are a nation that tortures.

    Bush has established a precedent for this, and future, president(s) that they too can order torture, and Congress can’t act to stop the executive branch’s prerogative to add a signing statement that can waive any bill attempting to stop him/her.

  • Baba Rum Raisin

    I think we have done things like this in the past, and many things worse than what we know of now.

    The “two blindfolded VC in a Huey” method, although non-lethal, qualifies as Torture these days. One supposes that any interrogation technique which causes the InterrogatEE to shit in his pants from fright must, by definition, be Torture.

    Each side in our national civil war treated its prisoners worse than cattle. And the Cherokee might feel differently about their displacement under Jackson than an Anglo-centric history of the Trail of Tears would imply.

    Nonetheless, it is bad acts as Pursuit of Policy that diminishes us as a people. These policies were promulgated by a bunch of fucking geldings who had, in all likelihood, ever been slapped upside the head, much less taken a cattle prod to the scrotum, more’s the pity.

    I have met few individuals in Central Asia and the Persian Gulf region whose removel from the planet (“failing to live up to their Wellness Potential”) would attenuate my life in the least.

    Shoot them under Rule .303, but let’s not make them feel bad.

  • Pingback: Most Ops Officers Condemn Torture : NO QUARTER

  • David Hughes

    I appreciate what Drumheller is trying to do. One suggestion though. He said on MSNBC with Keith Oberman that: “Americans don’t have a history of torture.” In fact, the opposite is true. Drumheller needs to do his homework. Study how the US military trained Central American colonels to torture at the School of the Americas, or the Vietnamese at Con Son Island political prison.

    We are not exceptional.

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