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A Memo for Obama

(This important statement from an esteemed group of intelligence professionals is essential reading. Bumped up from Thursday afternoon.)

I am part of a group of former intelligence officers who want to ensure Barack Obama does the right thing when it comes to the matter of torture. I would remind you that Barack Obama chose John Brennan to head up the counter terrorism/homeland security section of the National Security Council. Unfortunately, Mr. Brennan earned his stars at CIA because of his fawning briefings of Dick Cheney when he served on the PDB staff. Brennan is a big defender of George Tenet as well. Frankly, Brennan is in a position to exert influence on Obama and try to limit any punishment or sanction for the CIA officers who enabled the so-called “enhanced” interrogation practices. Brennan, who was fully aware of the program at the time, never spoke out and certainly did not resign as a matter of conscience. He went along with the torture crowd and defends Tenet’s conduct to this day.

MEMORANDUM FOR: The President

FROM: Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS)

SUBJECT: Torture

This memorandum is VIPS’ first attempt to inform you on a major intelligence issue, as we did your predecessor; thus, some background might be helpful. Five former CIA officers established Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS) in January 2003, when we saw our profession being corrupted to justify an attack on Iraq. Since then, our numbers have grown to 70 intelligence professionals, mostly retired, who have served in virtually all U.S. civilian and military intelligence agencies.

In our first Memorandum for the President (George W. Bush), dated February 5, 2003, we provided a same-day commentary on Colin Powell’s U.N. speech. We warned the president that “an invasion of Iraq would ensure overflowing recruitment centers for terrorists into the indefinite future [and that] far from eliminating the [terrorist] threat, it would enhance it exponentially.”

We strongly urged the former president to widen the discussion on Iraq “beyond the circle of those advisers clearly bent on a war for which we see no compelling reason and from which we believe the unintended consequences are likely to be catastrophic.” VIPS’ second pre-war Memorandum for the President was titled, “Forgery, Hyperbole, Half-Truth: A Problem”—a reference to the bogus intelligence we saw being ginned up to “justify” war.

President Bush ignored our warning and the warnings of other informed individuals and groups. The corporate media uncritically echoed the Bush administration’s misuse and misrepresentation of the intelligence, despite the questions raised—including those raised by our unique movement. (It was the first time an alumni group of intelligence officials had formed expressly to chronicle and to halt the corruption of intelligence.)

The cheerleading for war had begun—a war that would fit the post-WWII Nuremberg Tribunal’s description of a “war of aggression.” Nuremberg defined such a war as “the supreme international crime, differing from other war crimes only in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.”

Torture: An Accumulated Evil

Torture is one of those accumulated evils. Violating domestic laws like the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 is another. You were right to unceremoniously jettison former CIA director Michael Hayden, who betrayed the thousands of NSA professionals who, until he directed that domestic law could be ignored, had adhered scrupulously to the 1978 FISA law as NSA’s “First Commandment”—Thou Shalt Not Eavesdrop on Americans Without a Court Warrant.

In contrast, we believe you were badly misguided in giving a prominent White House post to former CIA director George Tenet’s protégé John Brennan, who has publicly defended “extraordinary rendition” in full knowledge that its purpose was torture. Brennan also had complicit knowledge of the lengths to which Tenet conspired with the Department of Justice to distort history and the law in drafting opinions that attempted to “justify” torture.

With all due respect, Mr. President, it would be another mistake for you to believe what you are hearing from the likes of Brennan and Hayden and the journalists they have fed and domesticated. Please do not be deceived into thinking that most intelligence officials, past and present, condone torture—still less that they are angry that you have put a stop to such techniques. We are referring, of course, to what President Bush called “an alternative set of procedures” involving cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment that violates domestic and international law. We focus on torture in the VIPS statement that follows these introductory remarks.

The Senate Armed Services Committee recently concluded that it was President Bush himself who, by Executive Memorandum of February 7, 2002 exempting al-Qaeda and the Taliban from Geneva protections, “opened the door” to the abuse that ensued. You need to know that the vast majority of intelligence professionals deplore “extraordinary rendition” and the other torture procedures that were subsequently ordered by senior Bush administration officials.

Sadly, President Bush was not the first chief executive to find a small cabal of superpatriots, amateur thugs, and contractors to do his administration’s bidding. But never before in this country were lawless thugs given such free rein. The congressional “oversight” committees looked the other way.

Tenet and his acolytes successfully ingratiated themselves with President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, and the faux lawyers who devised what actually amounts to a very porous “legal” shield for those who carried out the torture. It was a shield designed for and applied exclusively to those “just following orders” at the CIA black sites, and not for the low-ranking soldiers doing similar things at Abu Ghraib.

Some of the latter have done time in prison; one is still there. It would appear that some are less equal than others. And, to this day, the organizers and apologists for torture have managed to escape the consequences of their actions.

No doubt you appreciate better than anyone that the official Department of Justice memoranda you insisted be released last week are a national disgrace. Worse still are the first-hand accounts by young soldiers at Guantanamo of perversions like “rape by instrumentality.” You should be aware that this was a practice adamantly defended by former White House lawyers when Congress attempted to draft legislation expressly prohibiting it. Asked to explain their objection, Bush administration lawyers acknowledged that they were worried that such legislation might subject practitioners to prosecution under state and federal criminal statutes.

* * *

VIPS Statement on Torture

Interrogation Abuses and Those Responsible Must Be Fully Exposed

Inasmuch as we have gone on record as strongly opposed to torture, both on moral and practical grounds, from the first public awareness that the Bush administration had decided to violate international and domestic law, treaty provisions, and American tradition;

As former intelligence officials we understand that unless intelligence is “actionable”—accurate, specific, and timely enough to be acted upon with some confidence—it is ineffective. Equally important, we acknowledge our responsibility to expose fallacious reasoning regarding the utility of torture in acquiring actionable intelligence. This issue comes to the fore especially in the celebrated, but specious “ticking time-bomb hypothetical”—a regular feature of Jack Bauer TV fiction.

The fact that the exploits of Jack Bauer have injected a dangerous level of fiction and fear among impressionable viewers, and have misled not only interrogators at Guantanamo but also the chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Silvestre Reyes—not to mention Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia—leaves no doubt that such illusionary scenarios need to be addressed by professionals with real-life experience.

Inasmuch as the recently released legal memos that comprised part of the “golden shield” constructed by Bush Administration lawyers do shed some light but also provide inadequate information on “harsh interrogation tactics,” and that the memos sow confusion regarding which officials were responsible for institutionalizing those methods—not to mention whether they were actually effective, as former vice president Cheney continues to insist;

Inasmuch as it has come to light that two detainees were waterboarded at least 266 times, throwing strong doubt on various rationalizations regarding the effectiveness of waterboarding in providing timely actionable intelligence (in a “ticking time-bomb” scenario, for example);

Whereas CIA Director Leon Panetta has insisted that the “harsh interrogation tactics that some officials have declared to be torture” (the circumlocution now in vogue in the corporate media) might again be used in a future “ticking time-bomb hypothetical;”

Whereas, when the torture technique of waterboarding, a practice with antecedents in the Spanish Inquisition, was applied by Japanese troops in WWII to American and British prisoners—Japanese officers were later tried and executed;

Whereas there has been no better system devised— despite some shortcomings—to ascertain the truth of potential wrongdoing than the criminal investigative and judicial adversary process, which provides the right to attorney and right to jury and is governed by judicial rules which attempt to ensure fairness;

Whereas we recognize that the criminal justice process serves the important goal of stopping and deterring criminal actions and cannot be dismissed as merely “retribution;”

Whereas 92 videotapes showing application and results of the “harsh interrogation tactics that some officials have declared to be torture” have already been destroyed, and there is understandable concern that other evidence is being destroyed as the days go by;

Whereas other civilian and military intelligence professionals have also gone on record (see attached Annex) with respect to how torture tactics are not only ineffective in terms of getting reliable, actionable intelligence but have fueled recruitment by Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups to the point that, arguably, more U.S. troops have been killed by terrorists bent on revenge for torture than the 3,000 civilians killed on 9/11;

Whereas the false confessions that were elicited by the torture of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, for example, were used by the president, vice president, and the secretary of state (at the U.N.) to claim that proof existed of operational ties between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda, and whereas such false confessions also diverted limited investigative resources to pursue bogus leads;

We of VIPS call for a full, truthful, and public fact-finding process to begin without delay. We ask that you give careful consideration to Senator Carl Levin’s suggestion that the attorney general appoint retired judges with solid reputations for integrity to begin the process. Another viable possibility would be the appointment of an independent “blue-ribbon commission,” perhaps modeled on the Church Committee of the mid-Seventies, to assess any illegal or improper activities and make recommendations for reform in government operations against terrorism.

We commend the administration for releasing the Department of Justice memos attempting to legalize torture.

We believe the remaining relevant information must be released promptly so that the citizenry can make informed judgments about what was done in our name and, if warranted, an independent prosecutor appointed without unnecessary delay. We believe strongly that any judgments regarding amnesty, forgiveness, or pardon can only be made on the basis of a fully developed, public record—and not used as some sort of political bargaining chip.

Finally, we firmly oppose the notion that anyone can arrogate a right to ignore the Nuremburg Tribunal’s rejection of “only-following-orders” as an acceptable defense.

(signatories are listed alphabetically with former intelligence affiliations)

Gene Betit, US Army, DIA, Arlington, Virginia
Ray Close, National Clandestine Service (CIA), Princeton, New jersey
Phil Giraldi, National Clandestine Service (CIA), Purcellville, Virginia
Larry Johnson, CIA & Department of State, Bethesda, Maryland
Pat Lang, US Army (Special Forces), DIA, Alexandria, Virginia
David MacMichael, National Intelligence Council, Linden, Virginia
Tom Maertens, Department of State, Mankato, Minnesota
Ray McGovern, US Army, CIA, Arlington, Virginia
Sam Provance, US Army (Abu Ghraib), Greenville, South Carolina
Coleen Rowley, FBI, Apple Valley, Minnesota
Greg Theilmann, Department of State & Senate Intel. Committee staff, Arlington, Virginia
Ann Wright, US Army, Department of State, Honolulu, Hawaii

==========================================
Annex

We list below other experienced intelligence personnel, who have spoken out publicly about the inefficacy and counter productiveness of torture:

FBI: Ali Soufan, Dan Coleman, Jack Cloonan

CIA: John Helgerson (former Inspector General), Bob Baer, Haviland Smith

Military:

Navy General Counsel Alberto J. Mora;
Major General Antonio Taguba (who probed Abu Ghraib and concluded that Bush officials committed war crimes: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/41514.html);
Air Force Col Steven M. Kleinman; Rear Admiral (ret) and former Judge Advocate General for the Navy John Hutson;
former Naval Intelligence officer and Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration Lawrence Korb;
former U.S. military interrogator (pseudonym) Matthew Alexander;
former military intelligence officer Malcolm Nance,

Links

FBI
Ali Soufan Op-Ed Contributor; My Tortured Decision; Reclaiming America’s Soul – NYTimes.com Apr 23, 2009 www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html
Soufan was an F.B.I. supervisory special agent from 1997 to 2005.

Dan Coleman; The Torture Memos Are Not Just Sick, They’re Full of Lies:
Coleman was with the FBI; says “I can give you two reasons why Cheney wants more torture memos…” www.alternet.org/rights/…/the_torture_memos_are_not_just_sick,_they’re_full_of_lies:_a_closer_look_at_the_bybee_memo/

Jack Cloonan: How to Break a Terrorist
Foreign Policy: FPTV
Cloonan is a veteran FBI interrogator who spent 25 years as an FBI special agent and interrogated members of al Qaeda
www.foreignpolicy.com/extras/torture

CIA
CIA IG John Helgerson: CIA official: no proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks Washington — The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped …
www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66895.html

Ray Close (VIPS) and Haviland Smith, both are retired CIA Station Chiefs who served in various senior positions in the Operations Directorate, including in Europe, the Middle East and (Smith) as Chief of the Counterterrorism Staff.
Two former top CIA officials on the efficacy of torture, by Stephen Soldz http://www.opednews.com/articles/Two-former-top-CIA-offical-by-Stephen-Soldz-090425-265.html

Military
Former Navy General Counsel Alberto J. Mora: Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are ‘first and second identifiable causes of U.S. combat deaths in Iraq.’ http://thinkprogress.org/2008/06/17/mora-abu-ghraib-and-guantanamo-are-first-and-second-identifiable-causes-of-us-combat-deaths-in-iraq/

Air Force Col Steven Kleinman, senior intelligence officer: http://www.scribd.com/doc/6222229/Senate-Testimony-Col-Steven-M-Kleinman

Malcolm Nance: Why the Bush torture architects must be prosecuted
Nance is a former military intelligence officer and the Founding Director of the International Counterterrorism Center for Excellence at Hudson N.Y. and author of “The Terrorist Recognition Handbook – A Practitioner’s Manual for Predicting and Identifying Terrorist Activity.”
www.nydailynews.com/opinions/…/2009-04-19_why_the_bush_torture_architects_must_be_prosecuted_a_counterterror_expert_speak… Also at: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/004617.php

Former U.S. Interrogator Matthew Alexander (pseudonym) author of Torture Policy Has Led to More Deaths than 9/11 Attacks
“I’m Still Tortured by What I Saw in Iraq”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242_pf.html;

Sunday, November 30, 2008. Also on http://www.harpers.org/archive/2008/12/hbc-90004036 and http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/109792/former_u.s._interrogator:_torture_policy_has_led_to_more_deaths_than_9_11_attacks/

::::::::

Also published at Consortium News and linked at Memeorandum.com.

  • Hg

    “torture policy has lead to more deaths than 9_11_attacks.” That statement should be displayed with the banner that read “Mission Accomplished” under which the Brush stood on the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln. Now, name, rank, and serial number wont cut it for the US Armed Forces members who are captured, besides the immorallity of torture and the destruction of our National Reputation. Hope your Memorandom is noted and taken under considerations.

  • oowawa

    Well, a lot of care and energy went into writing this thoughtful memo, and I hope Mr. O reads it and takes it to heart. I don’t like to always be cynical and reflexively think “but I doubt that will happen.”

    My question, which may be stupid but is well-intentioned and not at all rhetorical is this: How does VIPS get this Memo on the desk of the President? How is it called to his attention? Is it sent to the White House and left to normal screening, whatever that may be? Is the memo intended primarily for Mr. Obama, or mainly to educate the public at large? I suspect there are factions around the President who would like to “protect” him from the thoughts in the memo. I ask these questions as a true clueless outsider.

  • http://noquarter foxyladi14

    good for you.LARRY.i hope they listen to you.
    torture is wrong.

  • Animal Control

    Larry, America owes you among others, a debt of gratitute for honoring our laws.

  • graywolf

    “…such illusionary scenarios need to be addressed by professionals with real-life experience.”
    You mean the “professionals” who missed 9/11?
    You guys just don’t get it.
    The “professionals” fucked up – big time.
    The “professionals” then began a transparent attempt at blame-shifting, by media leaks to sandbag the Bush administration.

    Bush was a major league fuckup, but that doesn’t clear the slate for the “professionals”; and Bush WAS elected.
    Nobody elected the CIA leakers and whiners.

    Your points may very well be valid, BUT your credibility is right down there with the media and Congress.

    • smather

      gw,

      Generalizing from the particular is a logical fallacy.

      If you present actionable intelligence that your superiors disregard in favor of reports that “confirm” their world view, have you fucked up?

      Furthermore, and hypothetically speaking, if the President takes the nation into war over a clearly fabricated casus belli that will put your fellow citizens into harm’s way, to whom do you hold your allegiance?

      Finally, I recommend you flip through Volume I of Hitler’s collected speeches (up to 1936). He delivers a great talk that describes those who complain about his actions as whiners. Perhaps it might temper your willingness to cast aspersions at whistleblowers.

      SM

      • mountainaires

        Nicely done, SM. Your logical and cogent refutation of Graywolf’s inaccurate and reactionary assertions is well done, thanks.

        I hope that the American Psychological Association will hold these men accountable too, by withdrawing their licenses to practice. They have clearly violated their professions’ ethical guidelines and practices.

        http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7471217&page=1

    • http://NoQuarterUSA.net Larry Johnson

      You mean like writing a PDB in August stating that Al Qaeda poised to strike in the US and Bush ignored it? You dumb fuck.

      • Seattle Moss

        So I guess we should have just shut down the airports or marshaled the national guard to check every passenger while the terrorists laughed and picked another way to attack…Right!

        No terrorist attack means Bush would have been blamed for overreacting and tanking the economy.

        • TeakwoodKite

          Seattle Moss, Bush is being blamed for over reacting and tanking the economy.

          And the airports were shutdown, except if you were a Saudi.

          Powell could not get a flight but they could.

          Still trying understand what you mean by ‘national suicide’. I get the context in someways but not in others.

          • Seattle Moss

            Teak,
            You miss read my post.
            Larry was stating that Bush knew of the impending attacks and did nothing.
            Every thing is in hindsight!

            As for National Suicide…

            That’s what you get when you spend the next 4 years in a war to prosecute the former administration. Show trials and releasing of damaging memo’s and pictures etc..

            Where does it stop….As Levin says bring it on. The republicans have the goods and those that supported Bush after 911 know it.

            The republicans in turn will prosecute all those that carry forth with this strategy.
            Scorched earth tactics will be used and the country will be split as we have seen on this blog…No middle ground!!

            Never ending litigation and humiliation of the country while our enemy prepares to attack a weakened and demoralized nation.

            To sum up

            Capitulation of American power in the world.
            Retreat and defeat in Iraq and elsewhere.
            National obsession with hate and self loathing.
            Trillions being spent destroying our currency and financial system.
            Show trials of the former administration and pictures implicating all Americans and the military.

            Equals….National Suicide!

            • http://www.sonicninjakitty.wordpress.com Sonic Ninja Kitty

              Seattle, I agree with you on the spending part being national suicide, but to allow torture to stand is like allowing cancer to stay in you body.

              Those who torture are like a cancer: they must be removed from the system–otherwise THAT is suicide for the US.

            • http://www.dcmediagirl.com DCMediagirl

              Seattle: These same bullshit “national suicide” arguments and hysterical, disproportionate doomsday scenarios have been put forward in every country where investigations into abuse of power were ultimately conducted. It appears that in your view, each and every administration should be run like a dictatorship, with the president and his minions subverting and distorting the law for reasons of expediency.

            • mountainaires

              That’s what you get when you spend the next 4 years in a war to prosecute the former administration. Show trials and releasing of damaging memo’s and pictures etc..

              “Show trials?” That right-wing talking point that really should be jettisoned.The Ninth Circuit appellate court ruled this week that the President is not above the law and cannot use “state secrets” to deny redress of grievances in court cases brought by those who were tortured. That court case will move forward now, and 5 victims of torture will get their day in court. It’s not a “show trial”; it’s our system of “justice.”

              It sounds to me as if you think our system of justice consists of “releasing of damaging memo’s and pictures.” On the contrary, we don’t hesitate to prosecute those who violate the law in this country just because it “looks bad,” and will be shameful to us. As a nation we are not “demoralized” by upholding our Constitutional ideals; we are strengthened by it.

              • http://www.dcmediagirl.com DCMediagirl

                mountainaires: Thanks for being sane. It seems some have lost sight of the fact that a justice system in a civilized country exists for a reason.

                • allimom99

                  Amen – great letter, Larry. Don’t forget to cc AG Holder! Doing nothing about this=condoning it and leaving the door open for more of the same.

            • NomNomNom

              tell it to the Peruvians who have jailed Fujimori for 25 years.

            • TeakwoodKite

              Larry was stating that Bush knew of the impending attacks and did nothing.

              .

              Is this not a factually true statement? I was not wishing to miss read your statement and sorry if I did, I was being rather Dry.

              The fact is that the PDB, Richard Clarke requesting a principles meeting(“hair on fire”), Tenant and company stating that “the lights were blinking red”, the fact that Bush had ordered Rumsfield to start the iraq Planning prior to 911( Treasury Sec. O’Neil) with Iraq and Condi Rice running interference for this operation while not taking these cables from Drumheller and several other station chiefs seriously, the two FBI agents , one in Minnesota and one in Arizona, and the southern district of New Yorks own investigation (O’Neill who gave his life in this pursuit), the San Diego and Los Angles FBI field offices all working it.

              This was not hind sight. This information was correlated at the highest level and was NOT hindsight. Those bozo’s KNEW and not only did nothing, they used it for an excuse for war.

              More was classified than was public.

              The bottom line was and is Bush et al were told and did nothing. Well, I will admit that is not completely true…Condi bought shoes, Bush was chopping wood on the ranch and Cheney was getting comfortable in an undisclosed location.

              I get that this great country is being sapped of its moral fiber, its wealth in blood and treasure, the well being and health of it’s citizens, the future of her children. The goodwill of the people and their trust betrayed

              That is national suicide I hear you speak of.

              I can feel it in my bones…I know you do to…failure is not an option in todays world especially since it has been demonstrated we do not learn from our mistakes. I do not apologize to anyone when it comes to this country as BO shamefully does.

              I think what I take away from Mr. Johnson and the VIPS memo is they are VERY concerned time is running out on this administrations ability to function effectively. They are seriously worried that our nations security is being put at risk by the same indifference to the Constitution that Bush had.

              That, in the final analysis, for me the crux of the biscuit.

              • http://godhistoryandyou.blogspot.com Christina

                Teakwoodkite, thank you for giving these details. I’m new to No Quarter, and clueless in so many ways. I’m reading about things I’d heard, but didn’t believe before. Now my views are changing.

      • graywolf

        LMAO……….
        You guys really do take yourselves seriously…
        You need to get out in America more.
        That beltway air is not good.

    • TeakwoodKite aka Badwolf

      I suppose Richard Clarke trading in his hair for a “Donald Trump comb-over” trying to get these war criminals to pay attention made him a “fuck-up”?

      What does credibility have to do with valid points? Which is it?

      Graywolf, I am not an Intel professional, but that doesn’t mean I can recognize bullshit when I see it. If you are Intel professional where were you?
      If you’re not, no one sitting in cozy chair in some undisclosed location, as yourself, should seek to have it both ways.

      This memo the VIPS thoughtfully composed carries with it the weight of 100′s of years of combined experience in their given disciplines.

      Credibility? Fuck Jack Bauer. Not the people on the front lines speaking truth to power.

      So Agent Coleen Rowley and the FBI agent in Arizona are the professionals the “missed 9/11? In Agent Rowley’s case she was ignored and a search warrant dismissed to search the Missaou’s laptop and personal effects.

      And the Agent in Arizona? He was ring the fire bell TWO MONTHS before 911.

  • Retired

    Question: Has anyone who was directly and substantively involved in either the program of applying the so-called “enhanced interrogation techniques” (as described in the recently declassified memos) or the analysis of the information gained from the use of these techniques offered their opinion on (1) the effectiveness of the techniques or (2) the value of the information obtained? The only CIA officer or contractor that I am aware of so far that might fall into this category is John Kiriakou. Even John wasn’t what I would consider to be directly and substantively involved, he was really just an observer.
    I do not ask this question to indicate that I approve of torture. Quite the contrary, torture is immoral and should be shunned by the United States for that reason alone, even if it were effective. I just haven’t seen or heard from anyone who was directly involved with this “effort,” as opposed to several very experienced and respected professionals who were not.
    I would also like to see the reports that were generated from the application of the techniques to the extent that they prove or disprove their effectiveness. One caution that I would offer to readers of said reports when and if they are ever released: It is a truly unfortunate aspect of the Bush administration that it so politicized intelligence that the conclusions of reports cannot necessarily be believed without qualification. One must actually consider the raw detail of the reports in the ocntext of the time that they were written, rather than just accepting a conclusion that “this information is good stuff.” It may well be good, or it may just as well be bullshit. In reviewing the performance of the Bush administration on matters of intelligence, I’m afraid that we are going to have to ignore the executive summaries, dive into the details, and then draw our own individual conclusions,

    • TeakwoodKite aka Badwolf

      I’m afraid that we are going to have to ignore the executive summaries, dive into the details, and then draw our own individual conclusions,

      Oh no, not the details! Those troublesome things?

      Retired, I do not know if the details would be accurate either. So many a word twisted this way and that. The stove pipe must have needed a chimney sweeper if the person knew the score while writting any report on this topic.

      Thanks for your insights.

  • Diana L. C.

    Never in my lifetime before the Iraq war did I believe that so many would condone torture or look the other way as it was happening. I am just as sick about it as I’ve always been that people did this in my name.

    I stand firm that I can’t believe torture works to get intelligence, but even if it did, I would still not condone the use of torture.

    I would rather my body be killed than my soul.

    I just wish that I could believe that we had a POTUS who would for once quit thinking about politics and start thinking about right and wrong. You can’t do good by releasing the information and then not acting to bring about some justice based on the information you release.

    Sometime around the Reagan years (I know I am dissing many people’s favorite president) I felt the country had moved to a point where many began to believe that questions of right and wrong weren’t important. Instead many Americans started respecting people who did what it took to get ahead NO MATTER WHAT. Winning was all that counted, not how you won.

    Thanks, Larry, for standing firm about this very important issue.

    • Diana L. C.

      P.S.

      I forgot to mention that I really enjoyed the comment about “domesticating” people working in the media. Great analogy!

    • oowawa

      I stand firm that I can’t believe torture works to get intelligence, but even if it did, I would still not condone the use of torture.

      I would rather my body be killed than my soul.

      Succinct and eloquent, Diana

    • Elliott

      I really expect some of these arguments made on behalf of torture to lead to the advocacy of other taboos. Maybe murder or incest will be next. How about rape? Maybe there are times when it is just necessary and you do what you have to do. Apparently it is OK to steal like the little creeps on Wall St. Who does it really hurt? I think the torture of non-citizens may be OK because they are not really human is the underlying argument just like the the Wall St grifters think it is their right to steal and loose hundred of billions of pension funds. I mean it is just little nobodies behind those pensions and they do not have any say in what Wall Streeters do or pay themselves even though pensioners own it.

      Unless torturers and the thieving architects of our financial collapse are tried and convicted there will be no respect for anything this country used to stand for. And we need to use the proper terminology which is torturers and thieves. We already know that our system of justice has been damaged but if the politically connected can get away with torture and theft we will not really have anything but bribes and propaganda.

    • carr50

      “… many Americans started respecting people who did what it took to get ahead NO MATTER WHAT. Winning was all that counted, not how you won.”

      I agree with you about Reagan. I believe that “Reaganomics” is what began the whole “Greed is Good” momentum.

  • Linda Anselmi

    Larry – Thank you for sharing this letter from the VIPS. I greatly appreciate all you and others with knowledge and standing are doing to right these wrongs and educate the rest of us on the real realities of torture.

    As Diane LC said:

    Never in my lifetime before the Iraq war did I believe that so many would condone torture or look the other way as it was happening. I am just as sick about it as I’ve always been that people did this in my name.

  • Peggy Sue

    Frankly, Larry, this line made me reel:

    “Worse still are the first-hand accounts by young soldiers at Guantanamo of perversions like “rape by instrumentality.””

    If there is real, indisputable evidence that “this” is what has been going on in our name, my name, then I say:

    Bring on the show trials, hang their asses out to dry, each and every one of them. I don’t care who they are. Appalling and beyond sick.

    I am literally aghast. And this is what we do/have done in the name of the United States of America?

    Then, we’ll have to risk bringing down the house. Because if we don’t? The rot will bring it down around our ears.

    • oowawa

      rape by instrumentality

      Yes, Peggy Sue. The 6 syllable word disguises the horror of what is actually going on–but the imagination “reels” at realizing the image. That’s sure not the USA we want to pass on to future generations.

      Then, we’ll have to risk bringing down the house. Because if we don’t? The rot will bring it down around our ears.

      I am still confident that the moral foundation of this country is strong, and your comments show it is. You’re quite right: rebuilding is in order.

      • Peggy Sue

        This literally makes me sick to my stomach, oowawa. If this is true? God help us. Maybe I’m truly naive. But I thought only the monstrously depraved and/or deranged were into this sort of perversion. The idea that “people in high places, people with responsibility” would ever sign off on this sort of practice?

        Sickening. This is the sort of thing the Nazis did. With doctors on hand, too. Jesus!

        • http://Safari AnnieCollier

          I’m glad it’s been stopped…at least I hope 0 has stopped it. I don’t trust him anymore than W.

          This isn’t even in the same universe as the Nazis. I’d leave that to their friends, the Saudis.

          • Peggy Sue

            I’m sorry Annie, if our guys were “raping by instrumentality,” we’re on the slow ride down. Once you accept this sort of perversion as acceptable? Anything’s possible.

            I hope to God it’s not true.

            I was willing to “move forward” with waterboarding, even though I think it’s unacceptable, for the sake of the country’s stability.

            But this? It goes beyond all or any decency.

            • http://Safari AnnieCollier

              It isn’t acceptable any more than MyLai was acceptable. We are at war with people who want to kill you. I want it stopped by I don’t want trials and on and on.

              I am not an arrogant American. I am a realistic American who wants my family to survive the coming decades. My uncle helped liberate some of the camps in WWII. This can’t possibly compare. However, I do not want these things to continue…people have lost their bearings. Horrible things happen in all war.

              • http://Safari AnnieCollier

                by but I don’t

              • mountainaires

                My uncle helped liberate some of the camps in WWII. This can’t possibly compare. However, I do not want these things to continue…people have lost their bearings. Horrible things happen in all war.

                I’m certain your uncle was horrified at the sight of people so barbarically treated. Unfortunately, this does “compare”–the United States used the same wording the Nazis used to describe our interrogation methods: “Enhanced Interrogation.”

                There is a reason we have the term “War Crimes.” That is because, though all war is horrible; no civilized society condones “war crimes.”

                We are supposedly a “civilized society.” Yet we used the same torture methods used by China, North Korea, Pol Pot, Pinochet in Chile…and the Spanish Inquisition. Was the Spanish Inquisition “civilized?”

                I’m aghast at people who shrink from the truth, because they’re afraid of what it might reveal. Such people would allow all manner of horrific crimes to occur, and deny victims any justice because it would be just too embarrassing or shameful!Such arguments are a poisonous, fearful, pernicious stain on our nation. We are not kept safer by it; we are infinitely weaker for it.

            • Elizabeth

              The Army has already admitted to sexual torture in the Abu Ghraib report where at least one detainee was handcuffed to a door for hours, beaten, sodomized with a broomstick and had his head dunked in urine. Regular eatings, electric shock, tormented by active military dogs, waterboarding…Sexual humiliation may be the least of it.

              There needs to be action, quite obviously, on all of the occurrances that we know of, at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and elsewhere.

              • Peggy Sue

                Elizabeth, I owe you an apology. My ignorance of the details on these torture practices is no excuse. But since reading the VIPS memo, I’ve been pecking around for information.

                I thought waterboarding was bad, unacceptable but the additional details I found are flatout . . . evil and depraved.

                To say I’m shocked by what I’ve found would be an understatement. So, I agree. Investigations are in order and the people responsible, no matter who they are, need to be brought to justice.

                There’s no way I can or would ever accept that these practices were done in our name, my name.

                I read a quote this morning that sums up how I feel:

                If these remain silent, then the stones will cry out.

  • http://Safari AnnieCollier

    All I can think of is how enraged everyone I knew was following 9/11. We were calling for blood and didn’t care what the military did to the people who attacked us. GWB and Cheney used our rage against us to move into Iraq. That’s the real sorrow I feel. They thought Saddam’s PR was so bad, we’d go along with whatever they manufactured. And we did…for a while. All old news.

    Just as most here, I’m not for torture and I do believe they have used other techniques that have been effective. However, as much as I have despised GWB, I am not for trying anyone in the administration for what has been done. It’s only in hindsight these years later that it is now shocking. I guarantee if we are attacked again, there’ll be nationwide howls for retribution. Probably not a good idea for 0 to begin setting those standards that will be impossible for him to live up to.

    • http://www.dcmediagirl.com DCMediagirl

      Old news? Obama has only been in office for 101 days. So how soon after the fact do charges have to be brought against officials of a previous who subvert the constitution? Is there an expiration date on justice?

      • http://www.dcmediagirl.com DCMediagirl

        I meant to write “previous administration”

      • http://firefox Martha Washington Collier

        You aren’t reading. “Old news” is meant as “this is no revelation to anyone here”…”these are things we already know” …as in putting forth an opening statement, etc., etc…..

    • Elizabeth

      Then Obama should be impeached if adhering to US and international law is an impossibly lofty standard. Or as he put it, if we torture and “take shortcuts that undermine who we are.”

      Seriously, for the life of me I can’t figure out what about this is so difficult to understand. It isn’t even a close call. There is always rage followed by screams of retribution during times of conflict. I remember reading the account a couple years ago of a WWII interrogator, a retired MIT physicist, who had been assigned to play chess in Germany with Hitler’s deputy, Rudolf Hess and made the point that they got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture.

      Until Bush, America knew how to win wars without diving to the bottom like a coward and a bully.

    • Diana L. C.

      I remember lying in bed all day after the first bomb was dropped on Baghdad, knowing full well that it was the start of something awful and feeling so depressed because there was nothing I could do to stop it.

      I had lived through Viet Nam and felt guilty about many of the things that happened then and knew I was going to have to go through it all again. I couldn’t believe all the cheerleading going on in regard to the war–and here the FOX embeds were the worst.

      Some of us did NOT want blood in that way. We had the world behind us after 9/11. There could have been other ways to deal with our anger with the world’s help, but Bush squandered that chance. Never did I believe we would find WMDs. There were protestors then for Bush’s actions.

      Methinks your sense of guilt is showing here. I don’t blame the general public who supported the war. I blame the “leaders” who used the trust of the general public to push the country this way.

      All analogies break down, but to me it like the “person in trust” argument used against priests, coaches, caretakers, etc. when we deal with child abusers. We don’t blame the many victims who trusted these people. We blame the people whose twisted logic makes them perpetrate crimes. And we don’t let them go because the trial will be gut wrenching.

    • NomNomNom

      “All I can think of is how enraged everyone I knew was following 9/11. We were calling for blood and didn’t care what the military did to the people who attacked us. GWB and Cheney used our rage against us to move into Iraq.”

      I was doing nothing of the kind.
      I blame the people who misled this country into the war the most, but I also blame the ignorant tools who were so easily manipulated and could not wait for an investigation and some freaking facts.

  • http://Safari AnnieCollier

    BTW, Jon Stewart calling Truman a war criminal is simply stupid. My uncles who fought with Patton and the 101st Airborne would laugh in his face. I was a little child then but it’s almost all I remember of those days…the hatred of the Japanese, Germans and Italians and the determination that they would not take over our country. The Arabs know the history. They know they have to take over from the inside and so far they’re seeing success.

  • Eastan

    I liked it better when I did not know what you guys were doing.

    I felt safer.

  • CG

    watch the video half-way down the webpage to hear Condi Rice talks about waterboarding authorizations

    • arran

      That was a nixon moment,CG.

  • jangles

    I understand the passion behind this. I firmly believe torture should not be any part of our policy and conduct as a nation. I think what individuals and groups may do in war settings will never be completely wiped out but it can be minimized. When it comes to the official policy and conduct of the nation, we need to be clear and unequivocal. But I think you are in a real fight with American culture: we have the hard ass, no holds barred people and we have those who are principled in the name of humanity. I think it is about 50/50. There are people who absolutely believe that if they are threatened and attacked responding in kind and more and that anything else is not American. You have the other people who will say we should turn the other cheek and we should be better than they at all costs. I think you have to accept that we have elections that focus on these policy questions. Torture is not prohibed in the constitution; maybe it should be but it is not.

  • CG

    Larry, until now I was unaware of VIPS and of the letters of advice pre-Iraq invasions that were sent to the Bush Administration. I don’t expect VIPS will ever receive an apology for the refusal to weigh VIPS’ recommendations, though it is due. But now I at least know that the Bush Administration did in fact get letters from experts opposing such action well before the invasion. Many of us opposed this war and oppose torture or enhanced interrogation techniques but were not aware that the experienced professionals of VIPS were there all the long. From what I saw in the media, there was no opposition. I was so impressed with Ray McGovern, a hero and patriot in my book, that blew me away, when he courageously confronted Rumsfeld. Early on, of course, I was aware of Joe Wilson and heard him speak twice in Seattle, and I was aware of Scott Ritter, but their voices were being drown and minimized by a bunch of loudmouth pundits in the media. We all know about Judith Miller and according to Glenn Greenwald Brian Ross spread the same falsehoods about the Khalid Sheik Mohammed interrogation, in a concerted effort of the Bush Administration to control the media on this matter with false spoon-fed reports.

    Thank you and VIPS for this new letter to Obama, and for the positions you take, which are spot on. I appreciate your courageous and honorable stance. I hope that more Americans will learn of your letter.

    • Elliott

      CG, this is a really great comment and should be put in everyone’s face. We don’t really have news but rather media which is for numbing the masses and propaganda. I laugh every time I read something about the news media going broke. People are increasingly unwilling to pay for propaganda and talking head drivel or allow it on TV screens. I have several news channels blocked so I can’t even accidentally see them and they get no ratings from me.

      The torture apologists and advocates have selective memory. It is very common with those who cannot get their head around the harm they have caused. Like an alcoholic parent who goes on the wagon. We are making headway with refuting the spin and idiocy or they would not be so vehement in fighting back. More and more of them are cringing when they talk about it. Next they will deny they ever supported it like the amnesiacs who supported the Iraq war and now claim they didn’t. It takes time and patience but never back down. I like to use the torture of Jesus Christ as an example and it is really effective. Torture is about dehumanizing another human being and that is really all there is to it.

  • politicalidentitycrisis

    If only so many people in high places and connections had really pushed to have Obama vetted by all Americans. I know that Larry tried, but my gosh, there is safety on numbers.

    I’ve never been able to understand how people who had served this country in the CIA and FBI wouldn’t have feared an Obama and been able to get something massive out that would end his bid for POTUS. Wasn’t there some way to stop this trainwreck? Honestly, I don’t sleep well knowing that Obama is in the White House and most likely suffers mental illness (NPD), but even if he is emotionally healthy (uh, he wouldn’t have run if he was with so little experience), he really could care less what happens to this country. He really can creep me out sometimes!

  • TeakwoodKite aka Badwolf

    Mr. Johnson, I fear this will fall on a deaf ears. (as big as they are).

    If BO’s first instinct is to retain Brennan and others. His choices are suspect. I really do hope he does understand.

    I thank you and VIPS for your service and for speaking truth to power.

  • CG
  • http://www.dcmediagirl.com DCMediagirl

    Thanks for posting this memo, Larry. It’s interesting that so far there hasn’t been a flood of comments from the usual suspects who forward the “torture is necessary” canard. Maybe sometimes actual facts presented by people with what some of us call “real world experience” can penetrate even the thickest skulls.

    • http://www.dcmediagirl.com DCMediagirl

      Whoops, I spoke too soon I guess. They’ve crawled out from the woodwork.

  • Pingback: Topics about Stephen-smith » A Memo for Obama

  • mountainaires

    Great memo, Larry, my gratitude goes to you and VIPS for your continued efforts. I agree with every word, and I hope your memo gets some coverage.

    There was an important court ruling this week which dealt a major blow to Bush/Obama’s “state secrets” defense to keep torture secret:

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/04/28/secrecy/index.html

    Also, Joe Galloway has a great column on torture:

    Former Bush administration luminaries, beginning with former Vice President
    Darth Cheney and proceeding down the chain, hasten to declare that torturing
    those people made America safe, or safer than it was on Sept. 11, when they
    were all ignoring a CIA warning that Osama bin Laden was “determined to
    strike in U.S.”

    Even if you believe the end justifies the means and ignore the numerous
    factual flaws in this ex post facto defense, it doesn’t address the question
    of how many of the 4,954 American troops who have been killed to date in
    Afghanistan and Iraq were killed by Islamic jihadists who were recruited in
    part by the revelations we were torturing helpless Muslims. How much safer
    did those orders to torture make our young men and women?

    The plain fact is that waterboarding is illegal under U.S. law. It’s illegal
    under international laws and treaties we helped negotiate, we approved and
    we adhered to until President Bush and his men and women decided we wouldn’t.”

    Full column at:

    http://original.antiwar.com/galloway/2009/04/30/obama-and-dc-dance-the-torture-minuet/

  • candymarl

    Obama will not prosecute anyone. There were Democrats that were briefed and knew what was happening as well.

    Prosecute one prosecute all. That would be political suicide for Obama.

  • J_Gocht

    “Show trials”, my bony arse, equal justice under the law.

    The World Trade Center bombing that happened on Clinton’s watch resulted in the apprehension, prosecution and imprisonment of those responsible; Ramzi Yousef, Abdul Hakim Murad, and Wali Khan Amin Shah (still in the Grey Bar Hotel by the way)…”

    The total destruction of the World Trade Center on Bush’s watch has resulted in an additional 5000 plus brave troopers dead and tens of thousands horribly maimed and wounded. Yet, where oh where in the world, is Osama Bin Laden…?

    Our Constitution is in tatters due to the contemptible “Patriot’s Act”. Our personal freedom destroyed by illegal eavesdropping.

    Our reputation as a once great country and example for the rest of the world destroyed by despicable torture of captured combatants…

    Bush and Cheney’s war crimes, versus Clinton’s BJ… Did “them yokels” actually impeach Bubba, for lying about a BJ?

    How about lying about a War…I don’t think they are comparable…?

    Oh, and by the way, that guy they hung, Hussein, didn’t have a damn thing to do with 911…!

    Do yah… “get it yet”, folks…?
    No…?

    • Diana L. C.

      Do you remember the media event when the statue of Hussein? I use the word “media event” on purpose. It was staged. An excellent documentary entitled The Control Room came out after that, but how many Americans bothered to see it when they could watch action thrillers and romantic comedies instead?

      We were being manipulated.

      • J_Gocht

        Yes Diana, I do…

        If memory serves… The good citizens of Baghdad were having a little problem and one of our erstwhile troopers gave an assist by hooking the chain to his “Hummer”…?

        “We were being manipulated.”

        The hell you say…?

      • J_Gocht

        Yes Diana, I do…

        If memory serves… The good citizens of Baghdad were having a little problem and one of our erstwhile troopers gave an assist by hooking the chain to his “Humvee”…and pullin’ it down…?

        “We were being manipulated.”

        The hell you say…?

  • http://despair.com/changewinds.html Smilin’ Jim

    Firstly, I wish in my remaining lifetime to find more people who do not wait to retire before coming clean on matters of national security. We don’t really need more heroes in this country but fewer careerists.

    Secondly, fights between cliques within and without the CIA are becoming moot since events have overtaken this issue:

    The same Spanish judge that caused Pineochet all that wee bother when he visited the UK is crafting criminal proceedings with follow-on extradition proceedings for Alberto Gonzales, a former White House counsel and attorney general; David Addington, former vice-president Dick Cheney’s chief of staff; Douglas Feith, who was under-secretary of defence; William Haynes, formerly the Pentagon’s general counsel; and John Yoo and Jay Bybee, who were both senior justice department legal advisers.

    We have a treaty of extradition with Spain. We are obligated by treaty to return Spanish nationals but are not required to extradite American citizens, unless the DOJ waives this exclusion.

    I would advise Messers Gonzales, Addington, Feith, et. al. to chap their lips on Obama’s arse for the foreseeable future.

    If Gonzales go will Cheney be far behind?

    • J_Gocht

      Oh yah, but we can still dream Smilin’ Jim…!

      Damn;that might put a little “hitch in their get along” when it comes to foreign travel in their golden years…!

  • Obama: Dubya II Electric Boogaloo

    What’s with all the bullshit historical revisionism with these torture memos? We act like our shit didn’t stink until George Bush showed up.

    My point isn’t that America sucks. My point is that the US and the CIA have been doing some pretty fucked up shit for decades long before Bush and the “torture” memos. Overthrowing governments, proping up petty and brutal dictators, the Shah in iran, Guatamala, Chile, Indonesia, the list goes on and on. The US has always used less than happy ways to support it’s agenda abroad, now were all pissed and upset that Dubya ok’d waterboarding and sleep deprivation? Guess what folks? It’s a fucked up world out there and sometimes that’s the way it has to be on the international stage.

    Clearly this is just BS to score political points against Bush and the GOP and a bunch of wussy, self-righteous do gooders who really believe the US was morally superior to the world before George Bush showed up. Give me a fucking break.

    • http://despair.com/changewinds.html Smilin’ Jim

      A man of this Ciceronan eloquence deserves a reply. (besides it’s a slow Friday and it’s raining)

      “My point is that the US and the CIA have been doing some pretty fucked up shit for decades long before Bush and the “torture” memos. “

      One could argue that although we do not always reflect the promise of our ideals, self-preservation should cause us to strive for a government of laws and not men which does reflect the credo of the founders. One in which, for instance, the machinery of the state cannot be hijacked by the frenzied few to promote war crimes, especially such patently ineffective ones. This is where the irony leeches into the pathos.

      I’ll leave that to Boogy’s self-righteous do-gooders and Baltasar Garzón to work out the details. One only has to look for the Judges Trial of 1947 for inspiration: 52 years in the joint and four life terms.

      Leaving the jejune and the apologetica of reactionaries aside, am struck by the banality of the evil Boogy voted for. All those concerned were, if not chickenhawks, at the very least wanabes and posers that couldn’t get laid on a hot night in Temple Bar. If there are no more heroes can we at least be granted villains of legendary stature?

    • Docelder

      Dubya ok’d waterboarding and sleep deprivation

      Janet Reno used sleep deprivation of bright lights and loud music on those religious zealots in Waco. Up until the time she called the tanks in. If we want to be revisionists and all.

    • http://firefox Martha Washington Collier

      So many of us felt that when Kennedy was assassinated it marked the end of American innocence. Meaning that our standards seemed all down hill from there on. Of course JFK had his hands dirty with the Bay of Pigs as well. But before the early 60′s we really believed that we held moral high ground. LBJ lying about VietNam, the killing of villagers, pretty much allowed the cynicism to set in. And…we hadn’t even been attacked for all that…

      So far as I’m concerned 9/11 threw down the glove. I don’t recall any of these other dictators responding to a major attack on their country to excuse torture. And no. I don’t want our government to use torture but I see how everyone including the Dems have been complicit.

  • J_Gocht

    Smilin’ Jim…

    Villains, no…

    Icons of legendary stature, yes!

  • J_Gocht

    Dammit…!

    I just ran my fuggin’ kayak into a rock…

  • http://godhistoryandyou.blogspot.com Christina

    “Torture Policy Has Led to More Deaths than 9/11 Attacks”

    After reading this article, as well as the memo, my whole belief system regarding torture, & our national security, has been seriously challenged.