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A Family Fight or a License to Hate?

So, Democrats, the media tells us we are in the midst of a “family fight.”

To introduce myself and my family, I am a latte-drinking, white, college-educated progressive Democrat who, despite my demographic, supports Hillary Clinton. Maybe it is because I am also a woman over 45. My mother and my late father are “blue collar” Democrats. My Dad worked in a factory in the Detroit area all his life and my mother, in a medical supply house. My mother, whose vote doesn’t count – for now at least – because she lives in Michigan, supports Hillary.

My younger sister, another educated progressive Democrat, (who, oddly, thinks Starbucks coffee is too bitter and doesn’t drink lattes), voted for Obama. We had several “family fights” about this, mostly by email since I live in the great Hillary-supporting state of California and my sister lives in Maryland, an Obama stronghold.

It occurs to me that my “family fight” somewhat mirrors the Democratic primary that the media has frequently characterized as a “family fight.” Therefore, I thought Democrats, particularly those latte (or non-latte) drinking, educated, progressive, blog-reading Democrats in the upcoming primaries, would like to hear about my family fight and what I learned from it, in the hope that it could illuminate the larger battle.

When I asked my sister why she didn’t want to vote for the first viable female candidate for President – and a brilliant person as well – she told me that she “hates” Hillary Clinton. Stunned at the intensity of her feelings, I asked her “Why?” She proceeded to give me some reasons that I found startlingly similar to the Obama campaign talking points: 

  1. Sister:
    Hillary voted for the war in Iraq.

    Me: Actually, she voted to give the President the authorization to go to war so the threat of war would force Saddam Hussein to allow UN inspectors back into Iraq, which it did. Bush, not Hillary, then decided to stop those inspections before they were done and invade Iraq. (I sent her an article in the Huffington Post by anti-war activist, former Ambassador and husband of Valerie Plame, Joe Wilson, about this. Joseph Wilson, Huffington Post)

    Sister: I don’t have time for this. She still voted for the war, and Obama was against the war.

    Me: Obama didn’t have to make that tough decision. He wasn’t in the Senate. He wasn’t representing the state of New York that had been devastated on 9/11. He just gave a speech at an anti-war rally in Chicago, in his very safe, very liberal State Senate District. How much courage did that take?

    Sister: Look, I’m inspired by Obama. Democrats have the right to be inspired too, you know.

    Me: Okay, you like the guy. I am not crazy about him, myself. He seems like a snake oil salesman, selling hope and change. But I don’t “hate” him, and you still haven’t answered my question about why you “hate” Hillary.

  1. Sister: Hillary is just like Bill Clinton. She’s too moderate and they both “triangulate”. We don’t need another Clinton. I’m tired of Bushes and Clintons. We need something new. (To her credit she didn’t use the epithet “Billary” which may have been too sexist for her. Or she may have just been embarrassed to say that to me.)

    Me: Have you seen Hillary’s policy proposals? They are very similar to Obama’s. In some cases, particularly her health care proposal, they are more progressive than his. (I sent her one of economist Paul Krugman’s articles from the New York Times on why Hillary’s health care plan which will cover everyone is better than Obama’s, which will only cover children. )

    Sister: Who has time to read all of these things? Politicians never do them anyway. He inspires people. That’s what we need in a President. I’m going to lose my job if you don’t quit writing all these emails and sending me all these articles.

    Me: I am just trying to find out why you “hate” Hillary so much?

  1. Sister:
    Hillary Clinton will do anything to get elected. She’s running a negative
    campaign.

    Me: Can’t you see that that is just code for she’s an ambitious, ball-busting bitch?! What kind of sexist double standard is that? Hillary has paid her dues. She didn’t run for President in 2004 after only four years in the Senate. She waited until 2008 after being elected by the state of New York with a huge majority to a second term.

    Yet, Obama’s ambition is very apparent. He has run for higher office every three years. He is impatient to get to the highest office in the land. And, do you really think Obama won’t do anything to get elected? Both he and his campaign have been very negative. He or his campaign spokespeople have said she:

  • is a “calculating, poll-tested, divisive figure”
  • "consistently" and "deliberately" misleads the American people.
  • is “dishonest”
  • is attempting to "deceive the American people".
  • is "one of the most secretive politicians in America".
  • is "a monster".
  • is "not being straight with the American people".

    They have also claimed that:

  • “The American people are not going to elect a president that they do not trust".
  • And, (probably the worse), they have said that John McCain is seen as more honest and trustworthy than Hillary Clinton.

    Obama is a master at the very negative campaigning that he and his campaign accuse Hillary of practicing. And, though he calls her a liar, he has lied plenty in this campaign. (I sent her a New York Times news article about how he lied about a Senate bill that he claimed to have passed but didn’t regarding radioactive leaks at nuclear power plants. New York Times)

    Sister: Quit sending me these emails! Can’t we just agree to disagree? I’ll vote for her if she is nominated. But, I don’t want to talk about it anymore.

That, sadly, was the end of our conversation. But from it and others with Obama supporters, as well as listening to the regular anti-Hillary rants on the “progressive” Air America talk radio, I realized something quite disturbing.

I realized that a very important pillar of Obama’s campaign strategy is exploiting the irrational hatred of Hillary Clinton. This hatred was first brought to us by the Republicans, and it is now the rallying cry of Obama supporters. The negative things Obama and his campaign have been saying about Hillary are 50 times worse on the blogosphere and the progressive talk stations (she’s a “bitch”, a “f**king whore”, “Billary”, “warmongering” etc.) than even that coming directly from him and his campaign. But the license to do this, the license to spew negative and vile, often misogynistic hatred, has come from Obama and his campaign – if they can call her a divisive liar, why can’t talk-show host Randi Rhodes go a little farther and call her a whore?

The other strategic pillars of his campaign are 1) his ability to give inspiring speeches about change and hope, 2) his race, which legitimately brings pride to African Americans and makes white liberals feel good about their support for the first viable African American nominee and 3) his hip, trendy, youthful coolness. None of these, in my opinion, are the best reasons to choose a President who will have the responsibility for pulling us out of war, an economic mess, a climate crisis and various other difficult, explosive foreign policy problems. But they aren’t ugly.

The exploitation and encouragement of Hillary-hating by the Obama campaign, however, is ugly. And, it is insulting not only to Hillary but to all women and particularly those who have worked hard and competed in male-dominated professions – like politics.

What is astonishing about what the Obama campaign has accomplished is that it has built so much of its support on this sexist, negative and inaccurate portrayal of Hillary Clinton, while at the same time successfully spreading the myth that it is the Clinton campaign that is negative. And the Obama campaign couldn’t have done this without the willing participation of Obama, himself, which belies the claim that he is a “unifying” figure and that he practices “new politics”, let alone that he brings people together. In fact, he is bringing people to his campaign by scapegoating and demonizing the “other” – the old, traditional, divisive, bitchy, lying, politics-as-usual Hillary Clinton.

Yet, in reality, Hillary is not only not traditional: she is, in fact, a very unusual figure in American politics – a First Lady who became a Senator and then ran for President. How many of those have we had? She also is not only not divisive but she has shown, as a Senator, that she can work with people who hated her and her husband when he was President.

She has healed relationships that one would expect could never be healed.

Women across the country are working their hearts out for Hillary, not only because they want to see this brilliant woman become the first woman President, but because they are furious at the ugly misogyny coming from the Obama camp.

And they know that the Obama campaign could not have been successful in building their support on the demonization of Hillary without the willing cooperation of a male-dominated, sexist media. A media that rarely reports that his campaign is regularly calling her some of the worst epithets ever thrown at one Democrat by another, but one that pounces on her when she or her surrogates even mildly criticize him. A media that doesn’t even notice that he is a Democrat, who, in attempting to tear her down, actually tears down the administration of the one Democrat since FDR, Bill Clinton, who has won two terms of office. (In his “bitter”/”clinging” remarks, Obama stated that the Clinton years were as bad for working people as the Bush years.)

I couldn’t talk to my sister about all of this because she wouldn’t listen. But, I’m hoping that voters in the upcoming primaries will listen. I’m hoping that Democrats, particularly those latte-drinking college educated Obama-leaning people will educate themselves to what is really going on in this primary election. I’m hoping that not just women, but men with daughters, mothers, wives and sisters, men who respect women –will no longer be inspired by hatred.

I’m hoping that this Democratic “family” will not stand by and watch as Obama and his campaign tear down Hillary Clinton and get away with it in the media, if not in the hearts half of the primary voters so far.

There is no question that this primary campaign has alienated a lot of women. And women are this party’s biggest block of supporters—almost 60 percent of reliable Democratic voters. If we abandon so many women, the backbone of our party, by nominating Obama, it will be more than a family fight.

It will be a very bad time for the Democratic family – without the scores of women in local offices to answer the phones, canvass and run the ground game. We won’t have much of a family with women walking out of the house in droves.

We need these hard-working reliable “mamas” – and Hillary Clinton – much more than we need a candidate who has given his followers a license to hate – Barack Obama.

  • campskunk

    i agree – there’s a lot of hate in that Hope™.

  • http://thehorizontalworld.blogspot.com/ Mary Jo Kopechne

    Wow–that’s deja vu all over again. I’ve had the same conversation with my best friend of 35 years who’s an Obama supporter. And I’m a latte drinking/wine track white woman and I have an ivy league phd and I will ONLY vote for Hilary. But I am over 45.

    Frankly, I cannot understand why anyone is for Obama and not for Hillary, but it’s especially shocking to me that women over….12 would be?

    I avoid my friends who are Obama supporters. I just don’t like them right now.

    • BernieO

      Is there mind control going on? I, too, have had this discussion. I have lost respect for several people that I thought were much more objective and rational than they are. I do know a couple of Obama supporters with whom I can have a rational discussion. We just have different judgments about how the American people will react to him in the GE, but this is not irrational or hate-based. I am betting that enough people will change their mind about Hillary once the really get to hear her, and my friends are betting that they won’t and that they will not be swayed by the right wing propaganda machine this time around.

      • BernieO

        Forgot to add that the person with whom I am most disgusted is my highly educated brother-in-law. He graduated first in his elite high school class with near-perfect SAT scores, did well in law school yet he is one of the worst offenders. My husband keeps responding to his Hillary-hating emails with requests for him to back up his assertions with facts and he almost never can. He no longer brings up the race with my husband because he knows he hasn’t a leg to stand on. The final blow came when my husband told him that not all men have a problem supporting strong, intelligent women. My husband has copied the emails to his sisters – who are not particularly political and seem to be on the fence – and they have been cheering him on. I think they are tired of seeing this guy put on a pedestal for his supposed brilliance. It’s been kind of funny, but also pathetic to see someone with his intellectual gifts be so shallow and irrational in his decision making.

    • alexei

      Yes I don’t either and I don’t know if I will get “over it”. This is the most important election in our lifetimes and perhaps since FDR, and I can’t see how anyone can vote for the pretender.

  • Cindy

    Joanne—Thanks for taking the time to tell us your story. I know it must hurt to go through all of this, because often the Hillary haters make us feel like they hate us, too. And since this is the first time a woman actually has a chance of becoming President, this campaign has become an extremely personal one for so many of us.

  • sumuchtusay

    Thank you, Joanne, for your eloquent words. I am copying and pasting your mindful responses to the “Hillary-hater” in your family, so that I may use them in the future to help my “debates” with the “Hillary-haters” whom I meet in my travels. Kudos to you!

  • simon, too

    She also is not only not divisive but she has shown, as a Senator, that she can work with people who hated her and her husband when he was President.

    Unity, right there.

    And she didn’t say a thing, did she?

    • jwrjr

      Clinton is so divisive that she got at least a little respect from R. M. Scaife. (Call the Pope; that has to qualify as a miracle.)

      • John

        And that is used against her- Air Obama constantly reminds it’s listeners that Scaife respects her to suggest that she’s not really a liberal.

        Meanwhile, they celebrate the fact that Obama has drawn Republican votes in open primaries as “proof” that he can win in November and would be a “healing” president. Go figure.

  • http://hyper-educated-uppity-woman.blogspot.com Uppity

    This was beautifully done! And Right On!

  • Lisa

    Echos of so many conversations I’ve had, campaign calls I’ve made.

    I hope we don’t blow it. The whole country has an opportunity to have a strong, compassionate, courageous, brilliant leader in these desperate times. I’m so proud that our best choice happens to be a women, though I am far from surprised. And as sad as I am that so many Americans are lining up to buy the snake oil, as you put it, I am forever grateful to have had the chance to support HRC for president.

    Now, back to work. Make Calls, donate, send emails.

  • Chinaberry Turtle

    Wow! What a fantastic post. I’m sure to follow your posts from now on!

  • Janis

    I’m avoiding talking to my Obama supporting friends. I have one friend (who is under 40 but grew up in a household that went on public assistance for a while) and is a Hillary voter. We talk a bit about the election, but not much.

    I think a lot of women “hate” Hillary because she reminds them of the bullshit and games and triangulation we all need to do to manage in this world. It’s galling.

    This 42 year old white collar professional, creative class woman with a blue/pink-collar family and an advanced degree in the hardest of hard sciences would crawl on her knees over broken glass to vote for Hillary Clinton. It’s fucking DISGUSTING to me that the split second the best and most qualified and experienced candidate in the universe is a woman, people suddenly start whining and mewling about how “oh experience isn’t everything.” Piss off.

    • http://hyper-educated-uppity-woman.blogspot.com Uppity

      LOL! Now you are someone I would like to have coffee with.

    • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

      How about the MSM women? Do you think some of the Hillary “hate” from them could be out of envy and jealousy? I think there could be secret admirers in the MSM women and they don’t even realize it.

      People will get over their “hate” when they have health care, we are out of Iraq and gas prices go down and we are on a path to self reliance on energy created by the jobs from the new energy economy Hillary will create. It pains me that people “liked” Bush and look what he has done! So maybe it’s a good sign people “hate” Hillary. Fine. But she will work for the people that “hate” her anyway because she has the guts, skills and will forgive her former political “enemies” as she has always done and get things badly needed done.

      I am amazed how petty and self centered some people are and miss the big picture en total: this election is about picking the best leader. It is not a beauty contest. Obama can go away now and model for GQ.

      So everyone should tell their family members, colleagues and friends it is OK to “hate” Hillary. She does not mind and will work her butt off for them anyway and get the job done for America.

      • StatBabe

        Yeah, I’ve noticed how many women in the MSM have it out for Hillary. The ONLY talk-radio woman that I have heard go to bat for Hillary is Lynn Samuels, and I say kudos to her for that! But the rest of the women have been decidedly cool toward Hillary.

        It particularly crawled all over me to see Arianna Huffington going after Hillary Clinton with such vengence on Bill Maher’s show–particularly when she used to be part of the “vast right-wing conspiracy” at one time. Even Maher, an admitted Obama supporter, is not so dismissive of Hillary Clinton as Arianna is. It did crack me up when Maher made that comment “At least, my husband wasn’t gay”, which obviously referred to Arianna’s own sham marriage to Michael Huffington.

        • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

          Speaking of sham marriages: Obama and his young wannabe leftists. They are so full of hope for change they don’t see the empty suit who has aligned himself with the corporations. They also don’t see someone branded as liberal has no chance in the GE, and McCain will brand him as a liberal. That’s a much harder argument to sustain against Hillary as her actual behavior (not the spin about her) is that she is a centrist. 527′s aside, Hillary and McCain will have to debate issues and experience.

          • StatBabe

            Yes, indeed! In as much as Hillary has pissed me off by some of her “centrist” positions (e.g., signing on to that egregious anti-flag burning amendment, concern over violence in videogames, etc.), I recognized a good while ago that she was positioning herself for broader appeal. And she has actually succeeded pretty well on that count, regardless of what the MSM say. At least, that’s what I hear from some of my Republican friends and family–from people who used to bash Hillary unmercifully and now, look at her as the best qualified of the bunch (including McBush!).

            The thing that hacks me is how much power the MSM has in molding public opinion. Elizabeth Edwards had a very nice op-ed in the New York Times yesterday, and she pointed out how the MSM had virtually shut out Joe Biden and Chris Dodd from much coverage and how the SAME MSM had hyped Fred Thompson to the point where he was running second before even declaring his candidacy!

            When one recognizes that the MSM is controlled by corporate interests, then it becomes clear why certain candidates garnered all the attention while the ONLY coverage that other candidates got was of a negative nature (e.g., Joe Biden as gaffe machine, the break-in at Chris Dodd’s headquarters, etc.). In short, it’s little wonder why Obama has gotten such a “free ride” from the media–corporate interests figure that he’s the most easily manipulated if he manages to make it into the White House. Similarly, he’s the weakest candidate for the GE so they really have their bets covered.

  • Karen

    Last week I was having a monthly dinner with a group of women friends who all support Hillary except one.
    The person who is for Obama started complaining that
    Hillary was so negative and nasty to Obama. Soon I found some of the Hillary supporters agreeing and the others just being quiet and found myself in much the situation you were with your sister -only one against three. I wasn’t surprised by the Obama supporter but it shocked me to find the Hillary supporters beginning to believe what they were hearing about Hillary from the Obama campaign and MSM sound bites. We all left dinner in a less than cordial way and didn’t set next months date. I do worry about how we will heal all these “family”
    squabbles when this is over. Thanks for this great article and moral support. The “devil” just might make me send this to the Hillary supporters in my group.

    • http://hyper-educated-uppity-woman.blogspot.com Uppity

      Basically what they are seeing is she has bigger cajones than he does. And let’s face it, she does. She all those things a wimpy guy wishes he could be.

  • http://writehillaryin.com JAY in Los Angeles

    Love the sentiment of this post, but Kopechne’s “I just don’t like them right now,” has made my night.

    • simon, too

      You know, there is every opportunity to respect others, play by the rules, civilization is necessary to survive and thrive, and someones need to disrupt does not in anyway override our right to exist peacefully.

      I mean, who the hell are they?

      Having said that, as long as mutual respect and adult behavior is truly exhibited, everyone CAN progress.

      But the minute any Obamabot tries the dirty tricks, well, they better make sure they understand what they’re getting into.

      It’s been my expericene they don’t have a fucking clue.

      None.

      And when K&& is what passes for enlightened intellectualism in your group, well, you know…

  • workingclass artist

    Great post….What I found interesting is the reluctance of the sister to READ any of the policies about either candidate….A reluctance to research the history of candidates, parties, or electoral machinations…
    This is very disturbing…..I’m a Clinton supporter because I read about all the candidates….

    • http://hyper-educated-uppity-woman.blogspot.com Uppity

      I think quite a few obama supporters, especially younger ones, are supporting him based on emotions and actual policies and abilities don’t seem to matter. He Moves them and that’s pretty much all they need. Deval Patrick was like that and he won handily. Unfortunately Mass people don’t think he’s such a hot deal now. That’s why all the Kennedys and Kerrys in the world could endorse barack and they weren’t going to help him win. They recognized Deval Patrick again and rejected it. So basically, what we have here is a guy who invokes emotions. That’s why her sister didn’t want to hear about those silly policy details.

      And that’s why adults don’t let children pick presidents in the end.

      • workingclass artist

        Well Uppity….I also am saddened that so many children are misled. I did’nt try to sway my daughter but tried to teach her what I was taught.
        I was taught that it was shameful to neglect the responsibility of being an INFORMED VOTER. Me daughter at 10 was watching the debates between Gore and Bush and followed the entire campaign. Civics begins at home.

        • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

          Is this a car commercial for Honda? :)

          • workingclass artist

            LOL….no.
            I do believe in the socratic method of examination and despite his onion breath Diogenes is one of my daughters heroes…..
            I don’t anticipate my daughter ever belonging to a cult.
            Except we are Catholic so I guess we belong to THE WHORE OF BABYLON cult…chuckle..

  • mimi

    Joanne, GOOD JOB!

    This quote stands out:

    I realized that a very important pillar of Obama’s campaign strategy is exploiting the irrational hatred of Hillary Clinton.

    I figured this out several months back. After I had, I could no longer tolerate the offensive, vulgar, misogynistic attacks especially when I was planning to tow the Party line if Obama was the nominee. Not now! Obama will have to WIN WITHOUT ME!

    This irrational Hillary hatred has infected even the Party leadership. That professional politicians are behaving this way has caused me to leave the Party. I want no more of their adolescent crap. They allowed the degradation of the only 2 term Democratic President that we’ve had in like what 50 years?

    The Obama supporters have threatened violence, rioting if he doesn’t get the nomination. And yet Obama had the audacity to caution NYC AAs about not resorting to violence after the Sean Bell verdict.

    Excuse me, but 50 shots that kill an unarmed man, yet nothing about the the threats of violence in Denver? Oh I guess violence is all right if it helps you get the nomination. I was already beyond the final straw, I mention this to point out how absolutely inspiring Obama is. Why hasn’t he commented on the constant threats of violence in Denver? On Tavis Smiley? Mayor Nutter? Even Hillary.

    This whole Primary has been more surreal than anything that Fellini could have put in movie.

    Tell your sister that Hillary inspires me, Obama doesn’t. Then have her Google Obama’s List of Lies. That should inspire her!

    • D4Hillary

      I think people need to check into Donna Brazile’s relationship with Karl Rove a bit more. I was weary of this stench early on in this campaign. As a black man, it is truly hard to deal with my own family. I’ve been called a sellout and an oreo. I refrained from calling my brother and sister both stupid mf’s though:) AA’s don’t realize that they have added their votes to those of mostly ex-repubs.
      They are the new freepers and don’t know it! I stand with Hillary even for their benefit.

  • SensibleWoman

    Thank you so much for this post. I am sending it to my daughter who has her hands full raising kids and babysitting others. She has been open to listening to me when she has a few moments of time to focus on our conversation, but her BF is a staunch Obama supporter.

    She and her friends have resorted to steering the conversation off to other subjects in his presence because he goes off the wall just as many of the others tend to do. She and her friends are all pre-occupied with the demands of taking care of their children day-to-day, but the noise is still there in the background of their lives.

    Your article here gives me an articulate, quiet, and soft way to counter that noise. Hopefully she’ll share it with her friends, too. I’m certainly encouraging her to do so.

    • Strawberrybitch

      But it is that very shrill, unhinged hatred towards Hillary that turned me off to Obama. Perhaps you could point that out to those folks sitting on the fence. It is disturbing to say the least.

      • SensibleWoman

        Yes, it has turned my daughter and her friends off, too. However, due to the day to day demands of taking care of their families, they haven’t really had the time and opportunity, or at least they don’t feel they do, to get up and keep up to speed on all of it.

        This provided me with excellent points articulated very well that she can share with her friends.

      • workingclass artist

        For me this was exemplified by that look on Obama’s face and the tone of his voice in that debate when he said to her ” YOUR LIKABLE ENOUGH”
        He lost me for good then. I thought….You sir are ill mannered and arrogant and your momma would be ashamed of your behavior….If he had been my son I would have climbed up on that stage and verbally dressed him down…..

      • simon, too

        Obama has terrorist connections, the more that comes out about Rezko, and Auchi, and the corruption in the state of IL, (my goodness, Rezko was a part of the “let’s fire Fitzgerald” consortium), the harder it will be to deny Obama’s cynical manipulations of his “base.”

  • http://hyper-educated-uppity-woman.blogspot.com Uppity

    Now see this is the kind of crap that is making so many Americans turn against Obama:

    Still, seeing as how the Clinton campaign is increasingly at odds with all Democrats who are not currently white, working-class, and carrying a lunch pail to work at some failing mill in some economically depressed Rust Belt burg, she’s likely to find a significant ally in O’Reilly

    That, from the cesspool at Huffpo, in their current article about Hillary and the O’Reilly show. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is as if I, an educated woman who has done very well in her life is somehow supposed to support Obama because these left cliffers say so. If not, then I must be all those other things. This is the kind of thing that has PISSED off every educated professional woman I know. It is Obama’s moronic sycophants who make assinine remarks such as this, who have hurt him most. In the end they will all go down with him for their arrogant assumption that only they educated, important or doing well in life. That attitude is projected DIRECTLY upon Obama. These people are truly assholes. Half of these people are sucking dry their parents’ retirement money to appear “upscale”.

  • Ugo

    Good for you. The sad thing is that most women are the worst offenders. They hated sen. Hillary Clinton, but couldn’t tell you why. It is sad.

    • kenoshaMarge

      I never could understand the women that hate her so much either. Or that any woman would not be outraged by the rampant misogyny directed at Hillary Clinton.

      I am now in the process of reading Phyllis Chesler’s book “woman’s inhumanity to woman” and it is explaining a lot of things and making me very sad.

  • http://www.feigenlaw.com Brenda Feigen

    This is a fantastic article. My brother is so bad that I’ve stopped trying to talk to him. All he says (screams) is “Billary…. can’t win because everyone hates her.” Who hates her?! Why do they hate her?! Misogyny, as Joanne so eloquently labels it, is the reason pure and simple. Meanwhile, too many Hillary supporters are so afraid of being called racists that they dare not even say they’re for her, because, for many valid reasons, they don’t think Obama can beat McCain or be as good a president as Hillary.

    • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

      Ah but in the voting booth all the people that are afraid to say they support Hillary will put this puppy to bed. :) I guess the Obama camp that does not mind using the race card forgot what happens when you put a people down: they rise up!

      • workingclass artist

        How true….Guitarist….
        Fallaces sunt rerum species….
        Translation : The appearance of things are deceptive….

        • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

          I tend to be guttural in my prose but do like the more eloquent way you put that! I’ll stick with the puppy references and such though, as that’s who I am. :)

          • workingclass artist

            Well….perhaps since all empires turn to dust I occsionally like to brush up my very rusty latin….I appreciate you indulgence.

            • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

              Hey I like the Latin.

              • workingclass artist

                And I wish I could play guitar….Tis’ a secret envy….

                • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

                  Well you better switch sides to Obama! He can hope you some guitar playing abilities by waving his magic wand!

                  • workingclass artist

                    LOL….I have a POPE for that….thanks…..

  • Greenley Greene

    The sad part of the Obama campaign is the anti-Clinton sentiments of a majority of his supporters.

    Thanks for the excellent essay.

  • ruhla

    Great post! Each time the DNC e-mails me for money, I respond with some of these points and send a contribution to Hillary.

    • Judith

      Me, too. I return their email with a statement that I will donate just as soon as Florida and Michigan have their vote.

  • jd

    Have you received the obama news letter or emails? they sent attack emails to their supporters all the time. it is no suprised to me that your sister or obama supporters got duped into the negative stuff.

    They have been attacking Hillary for taking lobbyist money, NAFTA lies etc…then you have cable news constantly ripping Hillary for being negative.

    I am done with obama and his supporters.

  • justsomeone

    Joanne, politicans & campaigns come & go, not so with kid sisters, little sisters are forever.

  • flyarm

    heck i sent to a friend the post here about that Jayz stuff and i was called a racist by a friend..theni had to point out to her..that both my husband and son are doulbe minorities and me being a racist would be news to them!

    I will say this as i have before..i worked as a volunteer for Edwards in two states..on my own dime..i flew from Fla to Iowa and froze my butt off..and gave up the Xmas and New Years holidays..with my family..and i was crushed when Edwards supended his campaign, right after i was in South Carolina for him..and i stood inches from his podium for hsi concession speech..and he shook my hand and was so gracious that i was there helping out.

    I never would have thought i would be now cheering for Hillary..but i am and 100% because of what i have seen of the Obama behaviour..both the cheating that went on in Iowa that i saw with my own eyes and the bullshit i saw in South Carolina by the Obamabrats.

    They remind me exactly like the bush sheeple after 2000 and after 9/11..i would bet the farm many are being paid to propel their propaganda..and bullsh!t..

    I can no longer tolerate any of them.

    There is no such thing as unity with team Obama..they are nothing but a bunch of out of control thugs.

    There is no reasoning with them so i don’t bother.

    I say what i have to say and move on.

    They are like a cult..the same cult bush came from.

    There is little to no difference.

    I feel sad for my country..what i did see as unity in 2004 ..is now nothing but a dream.

    I will neither work, nor spend a dime supporting this fraud, and cheater, and his band of Ipod kids and thugs.

    I want nothing to do with this or have my name or integrity tied to this creep.

    fly

    • http://Whosturnisit? TeakWoodKite

      Hey Flyarm, well said.
      At some point some enterprising psych student will figure out the Obama blogs will be like other “monologues” and worth a thesis, perhaps similar to Michelle Obamas.

  • Charles Lemos

    Great post. There is a lot of CDS going around. But that epidemic has peaked and luckly for them the Clinton health care plan covers pre-existing conditions.

    I have done a survey of comments on the Rev Wright fallout on newspaper blogs thinking them more objective than say our own and certainly more objective and saner than TPM, Huff Post and Daily Kos.

    Here are the stories:

    LA Times and Charlotte Observer blogs
    NY Times blog

  • Northwest rain

    Divorce your sister. She sounds very lazy — too lazy to read — too lazy to investigate and compare. She (and my sister-in-law) are examples of why some people shouldn’t be allowed to vote. They are too lazy to take the time to study the issues, investigate the person and make INFORMED decisions.

    It’s amazing to me how many people fall for the snObama reinvention of history. He’s a con man — and yet even smart folk fall for his con.

    So many democrats have fallen for the GOP character assassination of the Clintons during the 1990s and even recently. The idiot Obamabots at the caucus I was forced to endure were spouting off pure anti Clinton progaganda — from the GOP “right wing conspiracy” play book. They of course could NOT name a single thing that snObama was FOR — or any of his accomplishment — but they did have the full course of the lies, spears and b.s. about Senator Clinton. One kid was so young — he was probably too young to vote. He was shaking in rage when he spoke about Hillary Clinton — that image will stay with me for a long time.

    Obama has cause a great deal of harm to families and to the democratic party — because he is NOT a true democrat. Axlerod & Obama have been using the GOP play book — to the shock of some of the GOP pundits. I think some of the GOP talking heads are getting a mirror view of what they look like when they rant uncontrollably against anything democratic.

    I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to have a civil conversation with my sister in law. She’s probably unaware that Obama hates her and all older women.

    • hillarysmygirl

      My mother-in-law is just like your sister-in-law. She hates Hillary because she’s “sneaky, manipulative, dishonest, etc.” but can’t name anything she’s done that’s particularly sneaky, manipulative, dishonest, etc., she totally fell for the GOP character assassination of the Clintons during the ’90s. At her birthday party, she tried to goad me into a discussion and got frustrated when I wouldn’t take the bait. As someone mentioned earlier, it’s sad to see women being misogynistic toward other women (and ultimately themselves).

      • hillarysmygirl

        AND my mother-in-law has had a longtime crush on Keith Olbermann…and we know how HE feels about Hillary.

  • secularhumanizinevoluter

    What amazes me about the whole obamazoid campaign is how very naziesgue it is. Accuse your opponent of planning to do or doing EXACTLY what YOU have been doing all along. Play on irrational hatreds and fears. When that dosen’t work use aggressive intimidation,anybody seen the clips of the obamazoids at the caucuses? And let’s not forget outright thuggery, like not only threatening the life of a broadcaster(Tavis Smiley) but his elderly MOTHER because he DARES ask questions about your guy. Oh yeah, there are those FIRES and SHOOTINGS at Hillary headquarters too. Then to put a cherry on top of the shit sunday that is the obamalamadingdong campaign, we have the Rev. NawNawNaw Wright and obamalamadingdong after 20 FARKIN YEARS coming out of his comma and realizing this huckster is a raving racist and hates America. In a way it has been a relief to have experianced this campaign. It has enabled me to finally tell a fair amount of people who I have marginally tolerated because they were on my “side” to fuck off once and for all. I mean really, haven’t there been people who claim to be liberals or Dems who you just CRING when ever they open their mouths? Dollar to a box of doughnut holes they upport the obama.

  • Educated, latte-drinking arugula-lover for Clinton

    My family shows the opposite trend than that of the national statistics. The least educated are ga-ga over “We are the one’s we’ve been waiting for”, and don’t care about policy comparisons, but focus on one issue – she voted for the war and he did not (ignoring the details of how he did not have an opportunity to vote and said to Tim Russert that he did not know how he would have voted had he been in the Senate.) My college-age child and I are turned off by slogans such as, “We are the ones we have been waiting for!” I’d like to see a better analysis of those stats on education level of voters.

    • workingclass artist

      Hmmmm………I think that our national dependence on polls is a disaster.
      I don’t quite fit the national ID polls either. I’m working class and College (ivy league) edumicated. I’m too Po’ to drink lattes although I would if I could. I am a middle aged CRACKER FEMALE but I wasn’t really very bitter until I was told I was in PA. Could be because I’m Catholic. ( chuckle )
      What dismays me is that after 8 years in this regime of thievery and stupidity we are poised to commit the same crime of idiocy again. I was so tired of the vindictive and hypocritical treatment of both Clintons in the 90′s. I have watched my party spiral into cowardice and confusion. I have watched the opposition party dervish into HOMOPHOBIC HOLYROLLERS. Who have no care what so ever for balancing a federal budget. In the old tradition being a fiscal conservative or a liberal were both noble positions.
      My grandad was a conservative but he also supported civil rights nd thought there should be balance in federal programs because he felt that too much welfare could be dangerous to a national work ethic. My grandmother was an FDR progressive, but was also a strong proponent for the military and the truman doctrine as a protection of US interests. Each had one thing in common….THEY BOTH HATED ST. REAGAN AND THOUGHT HE WAS A FOOL. In todays politics there seems to be more extremism than ever and our elected officials are more negligent than ever of their responsibility to inform and compromise. The income gap has become alarming. The war is draining the nation. We need a strong leader but we have to be VERY CAREFUL about the strength of that leader. We were very LUCKY in the leadership of FDR. Britain was very lucky wth Churchill. While the rest of the world turned to FASCISM we had leaders that resisted it. When I look at this election, I see that the stakes are high.
      I don’t see leadership coming forth from Obama’s campaign which seems to egg on his supporters and the msm in the dirty 19t c. style politics of win at all costs. I see the oppositin candidate who seems to have compromised every scruple he has to obtain his party’s nomintion. And I se one canidate who has demonstrated through word and action the capability to serve. I was initially excited by the candidacy of Obama, what democrat wasn’t, but I have been chastened and now I alarmed. To me Clinton is the choice that makes sense. The only way to unite this party and get back to the proper business of running the country is the centrist path.It is the only remey to the extremism of both the LEFT AND THE RIGHT.

      • Judith

        We do need a Centrist Party. IMHO, it’s just responsible government…taking care of all things that matter to the majority of people.

  • John

    I’ve had so many conversations- online and in person- with people just like your sister. The same phrases and words come up all the time- she’s “too moderate,” she “voted for the war and he didnt”, he’s “inspiring,” she “triangulates..”

    You see this stuff bleated on Taegan Goddard’s site, HuffPo, MoveOn, etc.- and if you challenge it, you get angry responses because it’s clear that they don’t know how to deal with people who don’t just agree with the talking point.

    And these people wonder why we call them Obamabots, Zombies, Cultists, etc. We call them things like this because they are acting like irrational, hypnotized sheep. They don’t want to listen to arguments, they want to indoctrinate the unconvinced. If they can’t do that, they want to shout them down. And they get VERY angry if you question their devotion.

    And the level of hate toward Hillary is just bizarre. HATE a candidate because she’s a “moderate?” Because she “triangulates” (while at the same time claiming that Obama can “reach out across the aisle and break down the partisanship in Washington?”) Because she “voted for the war” ( not even true?) These people INVENT reasons to hate Hillary as easily as they invent reasons to love Obama. I just don’t get it, but it sickens me.

  • Educated, latte-drinking arugula-lover for Clinton

    My college-age child was skeptical when I said that I had seen many claims that Clinton is “a liar” without mention of supporting evidence. He later told me that he sat next to a man in a train station, and when asked by the man whether he had voted in our primary, my child said he had voted for Clinton. The man apparently went into a rage and said Clinton was a liar. My child asked him, specifically, what lies he was referring to, and told me that the man had no answer.

  • kenoshaMarge

    Have had some of the same conversations with family and friends.

    Family will probably be forgiven in time, except for the granddaughter that called me a “racist”. Having been raised in this liberal family she knows what an insult that was and thus is no longer welcome in my home.

    Friends that spout Obama talking points are no longer friends. I have lived too long and seen too much to waste what little time I have left on such hateful fools.

    Words do matter to me and when someone calls me a racist they are off my Christmas Card List forevah!

  • Kefa

    Obama opened a can of worms and maybe a can of whipass on himself….

    http://www.suntimes.com/news/mitchell/923055,CST-NWS-mitch30.article

    • scott

      That’s an interesting article, did Barry just throw the black community under the bus too? She sure thinks so.

      • workingclass artist

        That is an interesting article. I find it sad that the writer feels that Wright is a warrior who soldiers on for the cause. Does she feel the KKK cause is justified…. Wright represents a racial supremacy. I thought the whole point of the civil rights movement was to END RACIAL SUPREMACY AND DESCRIMINATION AGAINST ALL MINORITIES BASED ON RACE…RELIGION..GENDER…SEXUAL PREFERENCE…PHYSICAL OR MENTAL DISABILITY….CLASS…INCOME…AGE…
        In Wright’s world where do I belong…..

        • mimi

          I don’t the think the article is saying that. The article is saying that the black church has been a longstanding sanctuary for the AA community. Like it or not, many AAs feel disenfranchised, alienated from mainstream society. They feel racism on a visceral level. You’d be surprised how many AAs believe that AIDS conspiracy stuff. Maybe AAs don’t go around spouting it off, but everytime we are confronted with the tones of racism and how hard our lives continue to be, there are pangs of doubt on all levels.

          Ministers of the black church often speak to these feelings, perhaps not to the degree that Wright does, some maybe worse, if that’s possible, but it is. The thing that whites must remember is that there are hundreds of black churches in any given community. Some are tiny, some huge. All Obama and Wright has done is put the black church in an unfavorable spotlight. But we all know there are a lot of churches with nutjobs of all races as ministers.

          Obama threw the black community under the bus long ago. When he encouraged the unwavering support without addressing any issues as he tried to run a campaign that transcended race.

          It would have been much wiser for Obama and the AA community to have been honest with each other instead of entering into a relationship based solely upon race. I have no idea where Obama stands on anything. He’s copied so many of Hillary’s policies and with regard to AA issues he says nothing. I would not attend a church like his or listen to Wright week after week. So why would I support Obama? He wants AAs to believe he identifies with them on the same level as Wright and he wants the white community to believe the opposite. His campaign people finally convince him that he could distance himself from Wright without losing black support. So he put his trusty bus in gear.

          He’s hustling his election with vague concepts while flattering a needy, misinformed, Hillary/Bill Clinton-hating electorate who have been conditioned to choose candidates the way they would choose a soft drink. This is not my idea of how to elect a president. Especially after George Bush.

          I’m at the point where I’m seriously questioning whether I can live in a country filled with people this stupid.

          • workingclass artist

            Mimi….I have been eyeing Canada since 2000. Now that my daughter is 18 it is lookin like a cozy place…..I’d head south which is closer and easier but I prefer to stick with the English foundation of the legal system……This among other things is where relocation to another country can get tricky….

  • Pingback: Things we wish we’d written: Case #2 « The Confluence

  • http://www.myspace.com/rokski Paul F. Villarreal AKA “Universal” AKA “RokSki”

    Excellent post, Joanne. I look forward to reading more of your work. :)
    ————————————–

    The NY Post has corroborated what I wrote about yesterday: Wright was lashing out at Obama because of a feeling of betrayal:

    NY Post confirms VillarrealSports.com’s Wright/Obama story

    There is no truth to the speculation that Wright was acting in concert with Obama. This was pure ‘payback.’

    • workingclass artist

      Yeah Paul….I agree….
      That made as much sense as the Brooklyn Bridge being up for sale.
      Thanks.

      • mimi

        Color me a potential buyer of that bridge in Bklyn if you like.

        I color myself suspicious. The timing, the unnamed source. All too convenient with Obama tanking in the polls.

        The whole raison d’etre of this thread is the irrational Hillary hatred. If this is true, it doesn’t help Hillary or derail his nomination. Obama has done what was required since he didn’t ‘disown’ him in the Philadelphia speech so that means Wright should no longer be an issue and white people can relax. And Hillary supporters no longer have a case since he is leading in the delegates. And they’ll bring up all sorts of polls which show that Hillary’s negatives are still higher than Obama’s even with the Wright contoroversy.

        Remember, Wright was an advisor on his campaign from the beginning as well. He had to step back at the speech when Obama declared his candidacy. I’m still convinced that this was a very well-planned candidacy with ulterior motives. All of the ties to Obama indicate this. Wright’s playing the role of the sacrificial lamb here. And yes, there’s no way to prove this. But there’s no way not to either.

        • workingclass artist

          Hmmmm…….I will ponder that Mimi……interesting…..

  • http://doublejointedfingers.blogspot.com/ Cyn NY

    This is one of the very best posts I’ve ever read. It hits the nail on the head with the Hillary Haters.

  • glennmcgahee

    I too had discussions with my mother-in-law. My husband’s mother(I am a man also) and she couldn’t believe that we were working for Clinton’s nomination. I pointed out to her that she and her husband had recently been having alot of problems getting healthcare and insurance and Clinton’s promise was to get us all healthcare regardless of our circumstances and that they did quite well under Bill Clinton and now they were having tough times. She said that she hadn’t thought of all that and hadn’t really paid that much attention and she thought she might change her mind toward Hillary Clinton. At the end of the conversation, she actually thanked us for working for Clinton and said she too, would vote for her. She is an Arizona Republican.

    • hillarysmygirl

      Your mother-in-law sounds more open and intelligent than mine. Mine’s twisted into a knot as hard as a rock with hatred for Hillary. Which to me seems like a lot of self-hatred. Congrats on being able to lure your mother-in-law away from the precipice.

  • Educated, latte-drinking arugula-lover for Clinton

    My son explained the Obama bias of his college-students as: 1) Obama is “cool”, and 2) college students don’t have time to check the facts to see if what they have been told is accurate.

  • http://www.myspace.com/rokski Paul F. Villarreal AKA “Universal” AKA “RokSki”

    Devastating new “Political Ad” against Obama which includes footage of his BS speech from yesterday:

    YouTube: Obama & Wright

  • http://www.bentcorner.com Rick Rottman

    As far as progressive radio is concerned, Ed Schultz turned against Hillary when she wouldn’t go on his show and Obama did.

    • kenoshaMarge

      Absolutely! I’ve posted about that dozens of times. It isn’t about Hillary; it’s about Eddie’s massive ego.

  • suthinfishy

    I posted this under Round-Up of Blog Responses to Obama Presser (and buzz about a N.C. poll last night) »

    This is big news…
    Reverend Wright flashed the “frat brother sign” which indicates that the whole thing was all a ploy to help Obama distance himself from the good rev.

    There is an African American Fraternity with chapters all over the US. If you are a member, you can look up other frat brothers for any reason.

  • http://www.grotte-de-han.be/index.php?docID=132 chatsauvage

    Obama supporters are motivated by emotion and by impulse, not by a genuine penchant for policy and for solutions. They also tend to be young, misogynistic white men who similar to their candidate never had to work for anything their entire lives. And no, they do not read the newspaper. In fact, one wonders if any of them can read.

  • http://www.reflectivepundit.com Brigitte N.

    The problem is that there are many people like your sister–especially among voters under 35 or so. As other comments point out, your conversation with your sister has taken place and is taking place day-in and day-out. I had several of them the other day at a gathering of family and friends. Not even the “Wright problem” has affected the Obama supporters who resemble the devoted fans of a pop star.

  • Margaret

    My fiancee is an Obama supporter, but he can’t tell me why, other than, he was raised in the South when there was still Jim Crow, and, he believes Obama will be a unifier. But when I ask him, on what do you base your assessment that he will be a unifier, he doesn’t answer. And when I say, Hillary has worked across the aisle, Obama hasn’t, so why do you think he’s more unifying than she is, he doesn’t want to talk about it anymore. He also doesn’t see the sexism in the coverage of Hillary. He dismisses things such as Ayers as a type of connection all politicians have, but he then agrees Hillary does not have these types of connections.

    So refreshing to see others have this same personal experience, where Obama supporters cannot explain in any rational terms why they support Obama instead of Hillary, and refuse to talk about it. I think, perhaps, they refuse to talk about it, because it is purely emotional and irrational, and indefensible. Support for Obama seems to fill an emotional void for some people, definitely rather cult-like.

  • ned bulous

    Look, I don’t hate Hillary, but I DO dislike her campaign’s tactics!

    As far as policy proposals, as you mention they are quite similar to Obama’s. However, there ARE some REAL differences.

    I SLIGHTLY prefer Clinton’s Health plan, but Obama’s plan has its own merits.

    Hillary didn’t only vote for the IWR, she also voted for Kyl-Lieberman- which Obama voted against.

    Obama voted to ban cluster bombing (which kills MANY civilians- it is known as “carpet bombing” and was used extensively in VietNam). . .Hillary voted AGAINST banning cluster bombing.

    Hillary is now pushing a plan to suspend the Federal gas tax for the summer. . . not only would this NOT HELP MUCH with gas prices, but it would cause more deficit spending. Paul Krugman himself has criticized the plan. . . Obama is against this policy.

    Hillary wants to continue the Bush policy of not talking to our political enemies- Obama wants to open a dialogue with Iran and other ‘enemy nations’ like Kennedy and Reagan during the Cold War. I think exposing the Iranian people to American culture will do FAR MORE to bring about political change than talk of OBLITERATING THEM WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS!

    I could go on and on. . .

    Suffice it to say that BOTH would be VASTLY SUPERIOR to McCain, but I PREFER Obama!

    • workingclass artist

      Ned….I’m just curious….How old are you….this is asked respectfully….

      • ned bulous

        I’m 38. I’ll be 39 this year.

        Voted for Clinton twice during the 90′s. Defended him staunchly during the impeachment fiasco. Strongly supported my Sen Wellstone in both his elections (as a matter of fact, the enthusiasm that young people feel for Obama REMINDS me of Wellstone, who was ALSO derided in the same manner by his political opponents, both Dem and Rep. . .)

        • workingclass artist

          Hmmmm……..The reason I asked was because perhaps the reason Clinton has proposed the gas tax relief is to avoid stalls in the economic flow….I remember the teamster strikes in the 1970′s and the energy crisis…..
          Our family had to go without milk for a while it got so expensive.
          Sometimes temporary measures need to be taken and they are’nt all simple pandering….

          • ned bulous

            In this case, I believe it is pandering. Suspending Federal Gas Taxes for 3 months will do little to nothing in terms of reducing prices. 5% is what the Federal Tax amounts to and this will HAVE to be made up somewhere!

            • PMS

              5% is what the Federal Tax amounts to and this will HAVE to be made up somewhere!

              It’s not unfunded, Ned. She has always tied it to a windfall profits tax on Big Oil (something the Obama campaign neglects to mention in the emails they send out).

    • suthinfishy

      Americans unload prized belongings to make ends meet By ANNE D’INNOCENZIO, AP Business Writer
      Tue Apr 29, 6:04 PM ET

      The for-sale listings on the online hub Craigslist come with plaintive notices, like the one from the teenager in Georgia who said her mother lost her job and pleaded, “Please buy anything you can to help out.”

      Or the seller in Milwaukee who wrote in one post of needing to pay bills — and put a diamond engagement ring up for bids to do it.

      Struggling with mounting debt and rising prices, faced with the toughest economic times since the early 1990s, Americans are selling prized possessions online and at flea markets at alarming rates.

      To meet higher gas, food and prescription drug bills, they are selling off grandmother’s dishes and their own belongings. Some of the household purging has been extremely painful — families forced to part with heirlooms.

      “This is not about downsizing. It’s about needing gas money,” said Nancy Baughman, founder of eBizAuctions, an online auction service she runs out of her garage in Raleigh, N.C. One former affluent customer is now unemployed and had to unload Hermes leather jackets and Versace jeans and silk shirts.

      At Craigslist, which has become a kind of online flea market for the world, the number of for-sale listings has soared 70 percent since last July. In March, the number of listings more than doubled to almost 15 million from the year-ago period.

      Craigslist CEO Jeff Buckmaster acknowledged the increasing popularity of selling all sort of items on the Web, but said the rate of growth is “moving above the usual trend line.” He said he was amazed at the desperate tone in some ads.

      In Daleville, Ala., Ellona Bateman-Lee has turned to eBay and flea markets to empty her three-bedroom mobile home of DVDs, VCRs, stereos and televisions.

      She said she needs the cash to help pay for soaring food and utility bills and mounting health care expenses since her husband, Bob, suffered an electric shock on the job as a dump truck driver in 2006 and is now disabled.

      Among her most painful sales: her grandmother’s teakettle. She sold it for $6 on eBay.

      “My grandmother raised me, so it hurt,” she said. “We’ve had bouts here and there, but we always got by. This time it’s different.”

      Economists say it is difficult to compare the selling trend with other tough times because the Internet, only in wide use since the mid-1990s, has made it much easier to unload goods than, say, at pawn shops.

      But clearly, cash-strapped people are selling their belongings at bargain prices, with a flood of listings for secondhand cars, clothing and furniture hitting the market in recent months, particularly since January.

      Earlier this decade, people tapped their inflated home equity and credit cards to fuel a buying binge. Now, slumping home values and a credit crisis have sapped sources of cash.

      Meanwhile, soaring gas and food prices haven’t kept pace with meager wage growth. Gas prices have already hit $4 per gallon in some places, and that could become more widespread this summer. The weakening job market is another big worry.

      Christine Hadley, a 53-year-old registered nurse from Reading, Pa., says she used to be “a clotheshorse,” splurging on pricey Dooney & Bourke handbags. But her live-in boyfriend left last year, and she has had trouble finding a job.

      Piles of unpaid bills forced her to sell more than 80 items, including the handbags, which went for more than $1,000 on a site called AuctionPal.com. Now, except for some artwork and threadbare furniture, her house is looking sparse.

      “I need the money for essentials — to pay my bills and to eat,” Hadley said.

      At AuctionPal.com, which helps novices sell things online, for-sale listings rose 66 percent from February to March, much faster than the 25 percent to 30 percent average monthly pace since the company was formed in September, CEO Maureen Ellenberger said. She said she was surprised to see that most of her clients desperately needed to sell items to raise cash.

      For LiveDeal.com, a classifieds and business directory site, for-sale listings for January through March rose 10 percent from the previous year.

      “We can definitely detect economic stress on the part of the consumer,” said John Raven, the site’s chief operating officer.

      On Craigslist, Buckmaster said, three of the four fastest-growing for-sale categories are tied to gas — recreational vehicles like campers and trailers, cars and trucks, and boats.

      Raven noted more and more listings for furniture, particularly in areas around Miami and Las Vegas and other regions hardest hit by the housing crisis.

      Baughman, who runs eBizAuctions, said that over the past four months she’s been working with mostly desperate sellers instead of mainly casual ones. Most are middle-class customers who can’t pay their bills and now want to be paid up front for the items instead of waiting until they are sold, she said.

      The trend may be hurting secondhand stores too. Donations to the Salvation Army were down 20 percent in the January-to-March period. George Hood, the charity’s national community relations and development secretary, said that was probably partly because people were selling their belongings instead.

      And secondhand buyers want better deals now as well, driving prices down. Secondhand merchandise online is going for 25 to 35 percent below what it commanded a year ago, estimated Brian Riley, senior analyst at research firm The TowerGroup.

      “It won’t hit the saturation point until the (economy) hits the bottom and right now, we don’t know when that is,” he said.

      In Alabama, Bateman-Lee said that she only received $30 for her TV and $45 for her DVD player at a local flea market. She doesn’t have too much left to sell, but she’s going back to “sort through more things.”

      Her $30 water bill is due this week.

    • suthinfishy

      Americans unload prized belongings to make ends meet By ANNE D’INNOCENZIO, AP Business Writer
      Tue Apr 29, 6:04 PM ET

      The for-sale listings on the online hub Craigslist come with plaintive notices, like the one from the teenager in Georgia who said her mother lost her job and pleaded, “Please buy anything you can to help out.”

      Or the seller in Milwaukee who wrote in one post of needing to pay bills — and put a diamond engagement ring up for bids to do it.

      Struggling with mounting debt and rising prices, faced with the toughest economic times since the early 1990s, Americans are selling prized possessions online and at flea markets at alarming rates.

      To meet higher gas, food and prescription drug bills, they are selling off grandmother’s dishes and their own belongings. Some of the household purging has been extremely painful — families forced to part with heirlooms.

      “This is not about downsizing. It’s about needing gas money,” said Nancy Baughman, founder of eBizAuctions, an online auction service she runs out of her garage in Raleigh, N.C. One former affluent customer is now unemployed and had to unload Hermes leather jackets and Versace jeans and silk shirts…

      • workingclass artist

        Suthinfishy…..Well done….I rest my case…..Ned….

      • http://Supergram.blogspot.com Melissa

        Thanks for posting this- a lot of us are getting very, very worried. I look at my engagement ring every month and wonder when it too will have to go.
        I thank God every day that my kids are grown and gone- we NEVER buy milk anymore- way too expensive.
        I saw a comment yesterday saying Hillary’s plan to eliminate the gas tax for the summer will only save us about $30. Well, i could use that money to buy more canning jars to put up more fruit and veggies against next winter.
        And her plan calls for a windfall profit tax on Bush’s buddies in the oil companies to pay for it.

    • Judith

      What campaign tactics? Working 7 days a week giving solutions instead of rhetoric? I am amazed that anyone would think she is a negative campaigner!

    • LongtimeDem

      I respect your views and also respect Krugman, but firstly, as far as Obama voting against Kyle Lieberman, the fact is Obama never showed up to vote on that ammendment (this seems to be a pattern of his). He seems to have a problem taking a stand on hard issues (voting ‘present’ in the IL legislature was a pattern too). Secondly, Hillary has proposed a temporary freeze on the gas tax (this would help small business mostly) along with a windfall tax on the oil companies to pay for it. This is a brilliant move in my opinion. The windfall tax on oil companies has been benched for years and what this proposal does is bring this windfall tax to the forefront, where it should have been long before now. This is the leadership we need. She is ready and willing to take on the oil companies, something neither the republican nor democratic congress has had the balls to do. Obama is just not up to this. He doesn’t have any real solutions, just rhetoric. We need action and this amazing woman is exactly what this country needs. Any other woman or white man with Obama’s resume and lack of legislative experience would have been laughed off the stage by now, not placed on this phoney pedastal to be president of the United States. This is a GWB redux, and the democratic leadership has fallen for it, hook, line and sinker. Losers, again!!!! For me, I hope she takes it to Convention. I will be in Denver fighting for her all the way.

  • Kathryn

    Thanks for your great post! I have been having this same exact problem with my son and my best friend!

    They are both intelligent, thoughtful people, college educated but are BLIND to facts. Honestly, it is disturbing, they said the SAME THING your sister did and basically refuse to discuss it, Hillary is to be hated for her “past” that they can not explain. Obama walks on water. Any pointing out of problems makes them incredibly defensive and they say things like “he already won” or ” you are racist” which makes my blood boil. I have to avoid the subject or I will end up in an all our battle with two people I love most.
    I am just glad they both live in CA. a Clinton state and hope they change their view when Hillary is nominated!

  • ned bulous

    One more point. . .

    I know MANY Republicans who will be voting for Obama in the GE, but none who would vote for Clinton. This isn’t her fault, but IT IS a political reality! Likewise, my brother and sister in law have NEVER voted before (and are over 35 years of age), but they have told me that they WILL vote for Obama if he is the nominee. . . Neither of them will vote for Clinton. This would be HUGE for down-ticket candidates in even RED STATES!

    Again, this is not her fault, but having “Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton” smacks of a duopoly. The message that it would send to have a son of an African immigrant with the name “Barack Hussein Obama” to the rest of the world would signal a BIG change ESPECIALLY in the MidEast! It would be VERY DIFFICULT for MidEast Regimes to claim that Americans hate Muslims, non-whites, immigrants, etc if Obama were our President.

    All of this combines to him having a BETTER CHANCE of getting our policies through Congress. I don’t care that Hillary has a slightly better Health Care Proposal if the GOP labels it “HillaryCare” and prevents it from seeing the light of day! I like Obama’s chances of getting Health Care Reform PASSED better than hers- it would be HARD to oppose his plan because he doesn’t have all the baggage associated with the Clintons in this area!

    • kenoshaMarge

      Those are your reasons and your opinions. I don’t agree and my opinions differ. Why post your opinions here where people really don’t care? Are you under some impression you will change some-one’s mind?

      Once Obama and his minions went after the only successful Democratic Administration in 40 years he and they lost my vote. That’s a line that should have never been crossed.

      Once the surrogates and supporters painted the Clintons as racist there was nothing they could ever say again that would make me change my mind.

      Once the misogyny in the Obama camp became evident I grew to loathe him and his supporters.

      I will never vote for McCain. But I will never vote for Obama either. If he is the nominee I will write in Hillary and vote down ticket for real “Dems” not fauxgressive or Blue Dogs.

      Trying to make nice now is not going to change that. Too little and way the hell too late.

    • workingclass artist

      Ned…..Don’t you think it would be a powerful message to regimes around the world who oppress and often murder women….Say China,Muslim countries, Hindu contries for the POTUS to be a woman ?
      I think you are correct about Obama….but the world is larger than the middle east.
      over 1/2 the globe is female and women are in serous peril….

      • ned bulous

        Yes, I believe it would.

        I have 4 young daughters and I would LOVE for there to be a woman President, but that is not reason enough to vote for Clinton. After all, I want there to be an African American president as well, but that is NOT why I’m voting for Obama.

        I do believe, however, the fact that she is married to a former President mitigates the fact that she would be the first female President somewhat. In these middle eastern regimes (which, yes, oppress women) they understand dynasties. They would find it extremely understandable (and somewhat undemocratic) that our Presidencies since 1980 have been:

        Reagan- BUSH
        BUSH-Quayle
        CLINTON-Gore
        BUSH-Cheney

        and then

        CLINTON-???

        Again, I believe this mitigates the fact that she’s a woman somewhat. It doesn’t exactly send the message that ANY girl can grow up to be President, but that there are political dynasties in America which now transcend gender.

        • workingclass artist

          Well Ned I find the old dynastic argument to be a fallacy. I’m voting for the best platform and a record of public service that seems to me remarkably consistant. Sen.Clinton is a ( New Democrat ) as was Bill Clinton and Al Gore. They represent a centrist approach. This was necessary in response to St. Reagan and it is necessary now.

          • ned bulous

            I don’t really disagree- the BUSH’S ARE a dynasty. . . But the Clintons are self-made (part of the reason the GOP despises them so much- like Obama, they don’t know “their place”)

            But I do think that the world would see the Clintons as a dynasty. . . It’s NOT her fault, but it wouldn’t be as strong a message to the rest of the world (especially in the middle east where they UNDERSTAND dynasties, but not democracies).

            It’s about the PERCEPTION and NOT the reality. As I said, it would mitigate the fact that she’s a woman somewhat in the eyes of those brutal regimes which routinely brutalize and oppress women.

            Unfortunate, but true.

        • rjj

          The danger from dynasties is a credulity test.

    • pm317

      Take your drivel somewhere else. You will be fortunate if the down-tickets candidates don’t get hurt by the GoP. She is gaining among independents and moderate republicans will vote for her. You are a fool to think republicans will vote for him after Wright, Ayers, and when the 527s are done with him. Take your ignorance somewhere else. You are hurting the country.

      • ned bulous

        I’m sorry if I said anything inflammatory. You have your reasons for supporting Clinton and I have my reasons for supporting Obama. Contrary to what many here think, there are LEGITIMATE POLICY DIFFERENCES between them.

        As I have said, though, I would support EITHER of them over McCain.

        If Obama gets the nomination (which looks VERY likely) and progressives DON’T vote for him- then McCain WILL WIN!!!

        And if McCain wins think of the Supreme Court

        . . . bye, bye Roe V. Wade. . . bye, bye Civil Rights. . . Equal Opportunity for women and minorities, etc, etc, etc

        The only ones hurting America would be the Clinton supporters who childishly sat on their hands and allowed McCain to be elected.

        If Clinton gets the nomination, I will vote for her IN A SECOND! Don’t think for a minute the GOP won’t pull out ALL THE STOPS against her- from Clinton pardoning members of the Weather Underground and Marc Rich; to donors to his Presidential Library; to impeachment, to rumors of the couples sexuality, etc, etc. . .

        That is what the GOP does! But EITHER of our candidates would be VASTLY SUPERIOR to McCain and his dreams of an Scalia-Roberts-Thomas SUPREME COURT and WAR WITH IRAN!!!

        • workingclass artist

          Ehemmm…..Ned…..I have not seen or heard any Clinton supporters threaten to riot if Obama gets the nomination…..

          • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

            The Obama campaign played the race and fear cards and that strategy almost worked. They forgot to realize their plan could backfire and once you play those cards you can’t play them later on effectively.

            • workingclass artist

              Agree…
              Quod me nutrit me destruit !
              Translation : What nourishes me also destroys me…..
              This strategy will bite them in the ass…..No ?

              • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

                Already bitten.

          • ned bulous

            Riot?

            Last poll I saw, more Clinton supporters found Obama to be ‘unacceptable’ and would not vote for him if he gets the nomination than vice versa.

            I think it’s a result of her horrible and divisive campaign. Especially that vile Mark Penn fellow- she SHOULD NOT PAY her debts to that LOSER!!!

            Penn has a long history of these poll-driven politics (witness the BBC doc “Century of the Self” where he was POLLING whether Clinton should bomb Bosnia!) She should NEVER have hired him. . .

            I liked Clinton A LOT to begin with, but her campaign’s tactics have caused even my wife (once an ardent Clinton supporter) to switch to Obama.

            • workingclass artist

              Ehemmmm……Ned……Nosce te ipsum…No?
              Translation : Know thyself ?
              Perhaps an honest evaluation of your candiates campaign is in order….No ?

              • ned bulous

                C’mon. . .

                These personal insults don’t serve our cause very well. Obama has clearly run a better campaign and, barring a BIG screw-up, he WILL be our nominee. . .

                I can understand Clinton’s supporters’ disappointment, but even Clinton herself will support Obama.

                I KNOW him and his policies (and his behavior and leadership during the course of this campaign) as well as I KNOW hers! And, by MOST accounts, they are NOT all that different.

                I have mentioned my reasons for supporting Obama. . . Now you clearly have a right to disagree (maybe you like her health care plan better, as I do. . . Maybe you supported Kyl-Lieberman, as she did. . . Maybe you are against BANNING CLUSTER BOMBS. . .I don’t know, but I RESPECT your reasons even if I don’t agree.

                I won’t personally insult you as not KNOWING YOURSELF or YOUR CANDIDATE, though. BOTH candidates are VERY CLOSE policy-wise and will have to WORK CLOSELY together if either of them is to be an effective President!

                Heck, they MAY even end up on the same ticket!

                • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

                  he WILL be our nominee. .

                  Counting unhatched chicken lead to egg on face.

                • workingclass artist

                  Gee Ned….I was just having fun quoting a latin maxim….
                  This is a latin insult. Tum podem extulit horridulum !
                  Translation : You are talking shit !
                  The maxim I quoted is a maxim I believe in it was not meant to be offensive…..Don’t be so touchy….I’ve been reading your arguments. I was just pointing out the differnce between the maxim and your average latin insult. An insult I’m NOT directing towards you by the way….chuckle…

              • ned bulous

                One more comment. . .

                My DREAM is that Obama becomes POTUS and appoints HILLARY CLINTON to serve a LIFETIME APPOINTMENT on the SCOTUS!!!

                THAT would be the GREATEST! It would give the WINGNUTS what they deserve and would give us the opportunity to say:

                Remember- an “UP OR DOWN VOTE” since you are AGAINST Filibusters of SCOTUS nominees!!! LOL!

                Plus, she is a BRILLIANT LEGISLATOR and could do DECADES of work on the SCOTUS without any political considerations! She could help undo all the damage done to the SCOTUS over the years!!!

                • beebop

                  Obama will NEVER be president.

                  BillClinton has a better chance at being 44 than Barry.

                • workingclass artist

                  Hmmmm…….It’s funny cause I had the same dream in REVERSE….Really I thought Obama would be an excellent antidote to that traitorous ASS Thomas….chuckle….I kid you not….
                  Nemo dat quod non habet….
                  Translation: No one gives what he does not have.
                  We shall have to wait and see what developes…No ?

            • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

              Riot?

              The Obama campaign has used fear of riots as part of their strategy. This is a despicable strategy as is the race-baiting.

              Say whatever you want, I already voted for Hillary once and will write her in if necessary to vote for her twice. Or I might consider voting for the lesser of two evils as opposed to Obama, McCain. Obama is a cluster fuck and I won’t put the lives of my family and community in his inept inexperienced hands. Oh, and Wright as a problem for Obama won’t just go away because people wish or hope he does.

              • beebop

                Seeing some interesting opinions out there about some of his 90% that aren’t going to support anyone. He can no longer drum up support for a proper riot … those snotty nosed college kids? hahahahahah

                • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

                  That is interesting.

        • http://Supergram.blogspot.com Melissa

          Take that somewhere else. I will not be threatened into voting for Obama with the Supreme Court.
          Get a clue- the President nominates, the Congress approves Justices. As long as we vote Dem down ticket, SCOTUS is safe.

          • Jason

            Really? How’d that work out for you with Roberts and Alito?

    • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

      CHANCE

      You picked the correct word. We will never take a CHANCE with our families and communities lives with your candidate. Hope ends in despair more often than not. Rolling up your sleeves with a great plan and sticking with it ends in solutions. Hillary is solutions. Obama is “hope.” We won’t take a CHANCE on hope.

    • stodghie

      tell you what ned i think what you wrote is bull. i am a former republican. i am one of those who is now an independent. i know many just like me. hades will freeze over before we will vote for obama. unlike you we know what is good for us.

    • mimi

      “Likewise, my brother and sister in law have NEVER voted before (and are over 35 years of age), but they have told me that they WILL vote for Obama if he is the nominee.”

      Sorry, but I find this fact disgusting. Tell them not to bother voting at all, ever. Why start now? It’s people like this that gave us 8 years of Bush. I have no respect for their opinion now. They’ve clearly stayed out of the political process so what do they fucking know?

      Over 35 years old and never voted! Un-fucking-real!!!!

      • mimi

        And another thing:

        Clinton is her married name. She’s a RODHAM by birth!

        Call her President Rodham for all I care. Will that make you assholes happy????

        Talk about petty and ridiculous.

  • katmandu

    What a nice diary. BTW, I find Starbucks undrinkable. It’s over roasted. But I love Paul Newman’s coffee, packaged by Green Mountain. So there’s my progressive coffee cred.

    I find so many things to agree with in your diary. I came from a college educated family, one of the few in a working class area. Coincidentally, this was near Scranton, Pa. The area has been in hard times since 1950, and growing up there was very educating.

    I find Ms. Clinton dependable and strong. I am very suspicious of someone like Obama who finds pastoral solace in ministers like Wright and Meeks (someone I think the media will be paying more attention to).

    I’m a 58 year old male who thinks strong women are rocks, rocks we can depend upon. I really think some of the Clinton haters actually have “mother” problems as yet unresolved. But that’s just my own opinion.

  • sjl106

    I saw this back in January, it was really getting hard to tell the obamabots from the rightwing crackheads. And as I listened to the obama camp spewing their garbage the little minions ramped it up on the blogosphere, and as we know the media played the most important role, without them the race would look much different today.

  • http://www.bentcorner.com Rick Rottman

    Obama voted to ban cluster bombing (which kills MANY civilians- it is known as “carpet bombing” and was used extensively in VietNam). . .Hillary voted AGAINST banning cluster bombing.

    That’s not what carpet bombing refers to. Carpet bombing is when a 500 lbs or 1000 lbs bombs are dropped at precise intervals which results in the bomb blasts intersecting with each other. The result is a long swath of destruction.

    Cluster bombing is when small specially designed bombs or bomblets are dropped over an area. One of the uses of cluster bombs is in anti-runway operations. A large bomb is used on the middle of a runway creating a huge crater. Custer bombs time delay fuses are then dropped over the area. The fuses are set anywhere from 2 minutes to 12 hours, making repair of the freshly destroyed runway all but impossible.

    • ned bulous

      I stand corrected.

      Still, cluster bombing kills many civilians and Hillary voted AGAINST banning the technique. Obama voted to ban it. . .

      • http://www.bentcorner.com Rick Rottman

        Still, cluster bombing kills many civilians and Hillary voted AGAINST banning the technique. Obama voted to ban it. . .

        Hillary was right in voting against banning cluster bombs. They are an important weapon in the military’s arsenal. If North Korea ever decided to attack Japan with nerve agent deployed from MiG aircraft, taking out the North Korean runways would be of crucial importance. Keeping the runways out of commission would be equally important. Cluster bombs would be an important tool in making that happen.

        Voting to ban cluster bombs would have been the easy thing to do. To the uninformed ear, cluster bombs sounds bad. As President we don’t need someone to simply do the thing that sounds or looks the best. Sometimes hard choices have to be made.

      • workingclass artist

        Ned you are the first Obama supporter I have ever read that used the phrase I STAND CORRECTED….I’m not being insulting.
        I think it’s much better to have civil discourse tinged with a sense of humor ? …..No ?

  • JJ

    Great diary….thanks for sharing.

    Like you, I am a well educated woman who is supporting Hillary. I would have been comfortable supporting John Edwards and I will vote for whomever is the nominee. It is stupid not to. But I have been disgusted by Axlerod and his minions. I left dkos and just pretty much go to the Obamington Post (formerly the Huffington) to post my protests to their blind devotions. I have had the same experiences with Obama folks that you have with your sister. ALL talking points; no credence and pure vitriol and hate. I think some independents/libertarians and former wingnuts join in the Obama crowd because their hatred for Hillary is knee jerk and sick, on a deep psychological level.

    In particular I find the ignorance of the young voters disturbing. They repeat talking points like robots and speak of things of which they have no real knowledge. They are using an American Idol mentality to “win” at all costs; some are romanticizing the anti war movement and wanting to be retro an live that again. Yet when we had anti war stuff going on here in 2003 and 2004, mostly gray heads showed up to protest. Most young people were no where to be seen.

    Anyway, thanks for sharing. One more thing; the Obama campaign’s need to demonize anyone (Wilson, Krugman, and even Maya Angelou) who does not worship Obama is reminiscent of the right wing mentality.

  • pm317

    It will be a very bad time for the Democratic family – without the scores of women in local offices to answer the phones, canvass and run the ground game. We won’t have much of a family with women walking out of the house in droves.

    We need these hard-working reliable “mamas” – and Hillary Clinton – much more than we need a candidate who has given his followers a license to hate – Barack Obama.

    I found early on that Obama’s MO was to start with Hillary hating crowd and converting youth who did not know anything about Clinton administration by feeding them republican talking points which they did using their emails. The final touch was the race-baiting after NH and before SC and branding Clintons racists to get the AAs. They thought all others in the democratic party will just fall into line — forced to fall in line, forcibly taken hostage (remember the bitter comments). Media and the party elders played along. Now they are in deep trouble because this guy is more and more a loser in GE. Women are the volunteer backbone of the party and Reagan democrats are the unconvinced swing voters. Both groups will leave in large numbers. You bet, they will.

    I am also a wine drinking, phd barely 45 woman who likes argula. I will never vote for him mainly because of how he brought republican tactics to smear the Clintons and use it to get votes. I am sick and tired of all his lies and deception and how divisive he is — look at his own family feud with Wright right now.

  • Kathryn

    I think the “fear of strong women” is her biggest hurdle. The blind hate from men and amazingly,some women,comes from somewhere in their personal history. As an astute poster mentioned above, maybe they have “Mother issues” that are unresolved. Just watching all the pundits parrot their outrageous sexist attitudes shows that. Calling her laugh a cackle, commenting on her body and her clothes. It’s sad. Really sad that so many young men and WOMEN are still so incredibly sexist and reject “feminism.”they do not comprehend what it means.
    I raised 3 boys/men,(no girls, woe is me) all of whom are not the least bit racist but often floor me with their sexist comments. Lots of family “discussions” are me against all 3 of them with me trying to explain to them how their comments are sexist or the music they are listening to is sexist.
    The night BO played 99 problems in NH I was fit to be tied and my son said ” what’s wrong with that song?” I know a lot about rap,like it or not, having raised 3 white kids all born in the 80′s. They and all their suburban middle class pals love rap.
    Ugh! The rap crap infested their brains, I swear. I do notice as they get older and are forming relationships I have new allies in their girlfriends. There’s always hope.
    I never dreamed I, a woman who marched on Washington and did all I could to fight sexism would face the monster out of my OWN sons, but there it is. I do notice they pick strong, outspoken women, maybe there is hope.

  • Judith

    Very good article. Obama has always used sexist code in his speeches, as well as racist code. He was interviewed just last week and made the claim, something to the effect, that he was able to keep his emotions in check…he never got too high or too low. Pure sexist drivel code for “I don’t have female hormones”. He started this ugly tradition early on by lifting words from Farrakahn “hoodwinked, bamboozled and okey doke”. These are phrases that would have gone straight over Whitey’s head, but served to inflame Blacks. In fact, after hearing his slogans and speeches side by side with Devall Patrick’s, I am quite sure this man does not have one original idea in his brain…only the desire to be adored by the masses. I will be absolutely sick if Hillary loses the nomination to this unqualified person.

    • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

      Maybe Ned will address the topic of this blog “A Family Fight or a License to Hate?” instead of his kitchen sink approach of everything else but? Seems like noise and misdirection coming from Ned.

      • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

        Why did this end up here? Sorry, wanted it as a fresh thread.

        • Judith

          I think Ned and Kevin are probably regular posters on pro BO sites. I think they are lost.

          • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

            Agreed. I think they are looking for validation as to their choice and in their hearts are having serious doubts. So they come here.

  • militarytracy

    I drink latte all the time and also lots of red wine. My husband does too. We are both well educated and we support Hillary Clinton. I was on the fence until the misogyny broke out. Since then though my support of Clinton is grounded in her policy facts. I do not support her because she is the female candidate. My husband supports her because of her Armed Services Committee record, she’s ready to President today and deal with the difficult situations that exist in the world.

    • workingclass artist

      Militarytracey………Propium humani ingenii est odisse quem laeseris.
      Translation: It is human nature to hate a person you have injured….
      I agree with you….The Romans hit this nail on the head.

  • http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/ Gloria

    RE: “irrational hatred”

    I picked up on that too….

    “In the meantime, Obama devotees continue to be blind to Obama’s relationships and corporate ties and are buying into the “image” of change and at the same time have become virulently hateful toward the Clintons. It seems to be irrational hatred because their own favorite is proving to have clay feet, although they refuse to acknowledge this fact.

    As the primary season has worn on, it’s become clearer to me that the media and Democratic Party are hell-bent on destroying the Clintons, specifically Hillary, for once and for all. Never mind that he’s been our only two-term Democratic president in decades and that he really did fix up the huge deficit mess left by Reagan-Bush I. Never mind he left the country poised to move forward. Suddenly, he and Hillary are the devils incarnate. And who is supposed to take up the party’s torch? A man who is arrogant and has advisers and endorsers who are the party elite! A man who will carry on the Democrats’ march toward becoming no different than Republicans. Big change…not at all. So getting rid of the Clintons seems more personal than a matter of political differences.”

    From “Hillary Rediscovered” which I posted on 4/22..check it out…
    http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/2008/04/22/hillary-rediscovered/

  • Kefa

    SUSA…..KY 63/27 Clinton

  • http://www.sugarnspice.typepad.com Sugar

    Oh my gosh Joanne, I feel like I could break down and BOO HOO crying right now! I’m sure we all have had near identical conversations with at least one of our Obama-loving loved ones. I would send this around to all of my own, but I’m sure they won’t even read it.

    The way the Obama campaign has indoctrinated a “Blame Hillary” nerve into his supporters is unreal. Try to keep things civil with your sister. I had to finally realize that it is only best to discuss this with them if they bring it up–which they always do (lol)–and then hit them hard with the facts! Then, it’s so satisfying to watch or hear them squirm or shout their way out of the truth corner.

    Amazing entry! Thanks for sharing.

    • Jeff

      “The way the Obama campaign has indoctrinated a “Blame Hillary” nerve into his supporters is unreal.”

      I agree that many Obama supporters have taken their opposition to Hillary too far. That said, a great majority of Hillary supporters have done the very same thing. For instance, not a day goes by without someone on this site calling Obama a “fascist”, a “racist”, a “snake oil salesman”, or some other over-the-top nonsense.

      And how do you reconcile this positive statement:

      “Try to keep things civil with your sister.”

      With this one?

      “Then, it’s so satisfying to watch or hear them squirm or shout their way out of the truth corner.”

      Somehow, I don’t think she’s interested in watching her sister “squirm”.

      • Dawnelle

        Ok this is too easy

        You come to a pro HILLARY blog to complain about the way we discuss your boy???? LMAO!

        How about we go to YOUR BO blog and start that shit???

        I sure am NOT. I want NOTHING to do with that ORANGE SATAN place anymore.

        GET REAL!! YOU are the troll here – don’t expect us to change OUR ways at our OWN place!!!

        How ridiculous you BO people are!

  • Talktruth

    Excellent article, Joanne. Something similar happened to me last night, trying to talk with my mother-in-law, a usually reasonable woman. I couldn’t believe it when, after we talked about BO’s many lies, she blurted out, “What about Bosnia?” I couldn’t help myself – I shouldn’t have said it in this way, but retorted, “That’s all you’ve got?” That is, indeed, all the Obamabots have, and it is pathetic. Bless their hearts, the ass-whupping they’re about to get will not be pleasant.

    Anyhoo, in honor of Hillary, your article, and the end of April and BO’s campaign, I sent money to Hill, and I challenge the good people here to do the same. And today it’s a two-fer – your donation will be matched, and go twice as far!

    Contribution Details
    Date: April 30, 2008 9:57 AM EDT
    Contact: Talktruth

    Amount: $25.44

    (From her site): Double Your Impact! Make a contribution before midnight Wednesday, and your gift will be matched — and go twice as far toward helping Hillary win!

  • Jason

    Joanne:

    Very well written article and I appreciate your attempt to bridge the gap between Hillary supporters and Obama supporters.

    I think you also correctly point out that the two sides have a bigger problem with the supporters than the actual candidates themselves.

    As an Obama supporter, it would be very easy to write the exact same article about Obama, cite a number of proposals where he is superior to Hillary (as Ned bulous has been doing throughout the comments section) and list of valid reasons to counter each of your points.

    One thing I think you need to think about a little more though occurs early on in your discussion with your sister where she says Hillary voted for the war and you point out she voted for the authorization of the use of force. To your sister, its the same thing. And while you disagree, its a perfectly reasonable conclusion for your sister to draw.

    That goes back to my point about the supporters being more angry with each other than at the actual candidates. If you just conceded and said “yeah, she voted for the war but…” and gave a litany of reasons why it made sense at the time and now that we are where we are and she has a plan to get us out, you would garner a lot less animosity and it becomes a lot easier for the Obama supporter to not hate Hillary.

    On the next point w/ respect to experience and how she’s been in the Senate for 7 years and he’s been there for 3 is hardly a difference. She’s got 4 more years of experience.

    This argument does not resonate well with young people. Your talking about people who rightly look up to Mark Zuckerberg, a 23 year old who is running a $15 billion business. So what difference does 4 years make?

    My suggestion is to not be quite so entrenched, don’t bombard your sister with information (because she cares a lot less than you do) and try to understand that there are two sides to all of this that are both reasonable.

    Because thats the only way we are going to beat McCain regardless of who our candidate is in November.

    • Judith

      I will never vote for Obama. He and David Axelrod have done all they can to rip the Democratic Party to shreds. They are worse than any Republican party bullies that we’ve had to deal with these past 7 1/2 years.

      • Jason

        Well, thats exactly how most of Obama’s supporters feel about Hillary and her supporters and they are pointing their fingers squarely at you.

        Thanks for feeding the flames.

        Now you can either attempt to reach out and heal the problem or enjoy 4-8 years of McCain.

        • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

          McCain is preferable to that cluster fuck Obama. And there would be a massive write-in effort for Hillary.

          • Dawnelle

            Oh for sure for sure that’s MY plan!!

            In the spot where it says OTHER

            I will write in BIG BOLD LETTERs

            President: HILLARY CLINTON PUHLEASE!!

            ;-)

            • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

              We’ll have to discuss what to do if the DNC does not come out of its Kool-aid induced stupor. My main concern is defeating Obama. We can’t let him become president.

              I was thinking of a hybrid model: Some of us could write in Hillary in states that are clearly going to McCain anyway. The rest of us could vote for McCain elsewhere.

              This way we send a HUGE message to the DNC and we keep numb-nuts Obama out of the oval office — all at the same time.

              I think this idea should be considered.

              And Hillary would probably campaign for numb-nuts, but we understand why she would do that.

              • Judith

                Sounds like a plan. I’ll have to be one to vote for McCain because my state does not allow for write-ins. Can you believe that?

        • workingclass artist

          Ehemmm…….Jason I’m just wondering….How do you reconcile Obama’s running for POTUS after only one year in the US senate with serious concentrated senatorial experience…..
          Also Obama’s position on the War was about as valid as mine was legslaively peaking of course.
          Don’t you think an honest re-evaluation of the historical record is in order ?

          • Jason

            Well, WCA, if you are simply basing it on Senate experience, McCain is your guy, because he has over 20 years there and 6 in the house. So if thats your criteria, its a no brainer.

            Of course neither house nor senate experience is pre-req for the job and I don’t know where you work but there are plenty of people where I work who are more junior in time served but better leaders and better at their job than people with more experience.

            You are welcome to perform whatever type of reevaluation of any candidates historical record. I would support that for all parties.

          • Jeff

            “Also Obama’s position on the War was about as valid as mine was legslaively peaking of course.”

            I also find it fascinating how anti-war Clinton supporters have adopted the strange tactic of ridiculing their own position. If you were against the war, your position was certainly more valid than Clinton’s.

            • workingclass artist

              I said LEGISLATIVELY SPEAKING …..
              Neither Obama nor I were serving in the senate. It is easy and well frankly lazy in an arrogant sort of way to side step this and sit in SELF RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT…..

              • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

                OT: E-mail me if you want, I have a question if you don’t mind. Thanks!

              • Jeff

                “It is easy and well frankly lazy in an arrogant sort of way to side step this and sit in SELF RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT…..”

                I attend anti-war rallies, write a blog condemning the war on a daily basis, vote for anti-war candidates, contribute financially to anti-war causes. What else should I do, organize a summit between the Shiites and Sunnis?

                By your logic, the only “serious” way to evaluate a person’s position on the war is how they voted in the senate, not what they said as a citizen. Fine. Hillary voted for the war. That’s all I need to know.

                • beebop

                  I don’t see many of the families of the victims of September 11th supporting Baby-O, do you? You remember them, right?

                  • Jeff

                    “I don’t see many of the families of the victims of September 11th supporting Baby-O, do you? You remember them, right?”

                    What on earth does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

                    workingclass and I were debating the IRAQ WAR VOTE. You can go have a “9/11″ debate with someone else.

                    • workingclass artist

                      Well Jeff my response to you would be that a careful evaluation of all the historical elements that were factored in is what I have done. I think what bothers Obama’s suporters the most is that Hillary has refused to admit that she was wrong with her vote.
                      Why does Hillary Clinton refuse to admit that she was wrong ?
                      She has stated truthfully that she made what she reasoned to be the best decision given the eidence at the time.
                      Now Sen. Clinton is not responsible for the errors in the evidence. She nor any of us are responsible for the incompetence of the administration.
                      She has chosen to maintain her integrity despite this being viewed as unpopular.

                • simon, too

                  You blog as anti war yet you’ve never looked into Obama’s true political motivations?

                  So you’re stupid, a highly tracked unoriginal thinker, or you’re a fraud.

                  Did you miss what we’ve said here, about Obama, Farrakhan, Qaddafi, and Rezko, among others?

                  Or are you a selective hypocrite?

                  The people Hamas murders, are they victims of war?

    • Jeff

      “That goes back to my point about the supporters being more angry with each other than at the actual candidates. If you just conceded and said “yeah, she voted for the war but…” and gave a litany of reasons why it made sense at the time and now that we are where we are and she has a plan to get us out, you would garner a lot less animosity and it becomes a lot easier for the Obama supporter to not hate Hillary.”

      So well put, Jason–I couldn’t have said it better. Good points all.

      • simon, too

        I think you’re projecting, and this issue is yours, and not Hillarys.

        Secondly, this is disingenuous.

        Many questions remain about the war, how we really got in, WHY, and we simply don’t know the truth, let’s be honest, there has been no congressional inquiry, no truth.

        Joseph Wilson gave an excellent detailed analysis regarding the war vote, it is in the NQ archives, perhaps you haven’t read it.

        If you have, and you’re still peddling this slow IQ ko$/Obama blogger crap, well, you’re simply trying to find a more creative bent, as a troll.

        And it failed.

        YOU have to prove yourself to others, we all do, why are you so special?

        And why in the world would Clinton apologize to someone who smells like he’s planning another dim witted gotcha!

        And I may be wrong, but sometimes you have to trust your instinct.

        Btw, Bush and his media teams just went through another Kabuki theatre moment, the build up to drill Alaska, bomb Iran, or dissolve the fed, whatever kook scheme they’re being fed this week, same build up, bait switch, distract, the usual ROVE: SHITHEAD (Simplify, Hit, Idiot, Tom, Hoover, Ed, Arnold, Dave, or whatever he calls it)and no one is paying attention. At all.

        So much for badass republican tactics.

  • Patti

    Very good post, your sisters side of the conversation is the same thing you see on the interent. I belong to an all female web community, and they seem to be the worst. For me its like talking to 2 year olds.

    I am a New Yorker that has voted for Hillary 3 times. Twice for the Senate, and once in the Primary. I have recieved e mail blaming me, for sending her to Washington. In that same E mail,the women said “Maybe if my son had died in Iraq, I wouldnt be supporting her”. That one line sealed the deal for me. You dont like Hillary fine, but dont bring my son, into the mix. That will get you bitch slapped until my hand hurts.

    • simon, too

      You know the worst?

      When you deal with men who embody the worst of females.

      In eighth grade, I had a teacher who said the only thing worse than a bunch of 8th grade girls giggling was a bunch of 8th grade BOYS giggling.

      I always remember it, always.

      Nothing worse than a group of catty men, ever hear them gossip?

      Women are still discriminated against, no doubt about it, so much more is expected of women, you have to not only be President of the Untied states, you have to look good doing it.

      Unfair to all women, I always give women more room, they simply do not hold the power, yet, like men.

      Men have no excuse, and rather than blaming the system that can oppress them, they blame women.

      SOME men, the soc.men, not real men.

      And then they get catty, you know, those weak, impotent, frustrated boys.

      I’ve always thought that’s what terrorists were, Britney Spears with an AK-47, or worse, a blog.

  • beebop

    Found this comment from Michelle after the first time Reverend Wright came into view:

    Rev. Wright Episode was ‘Opportunity’ to Lead, Says Michelle Obama
    For political pundits, the explosive controversy spawned by the fiery videotaped comments of Rev. Jeremiah Wright was a near-fatal blow to the historic presidential aspirations of Sen. Barack Obama [D-Ill]. But to the Democratic hopeful’s wife, Michelle, it was an important “opportunity,” long ignored by others, to lead the nation towards a critical dialogue on race, and bridging the entrenched gaps that divide the American people. An opportunity her husband gallantly seized, Ms. Obama adds, to bring about the hope and change she says America “desperately” needs.

    I think we have learned that Barry only wants to lead when his back is up against the wall and he sees his numbers dropping in the polls.

    I never thought I would agree with Jerry Wright on anything, but he’s “wright” on one score … Barry is just a politician.

  • Pat Newcomb

    I was struck by how well scripted your sister’s responses were, and how poorly thought through. I too encounter these responses, often in the same order. Even when you ask your questions in a thoughtful way, they are rejected.
    This has the potential to be a powerful tool for many of us. Thanks for sharing this experience.

  • http://lkcampbell.blogspot.com Lucinda

    This sounds a lot like brainwashing to me—especially when someone isn’t even willing to read an opposing view or get the policy facts. I think that due to the vast amount and the speed at which they receive information, young people are even more impressionable now than they were back in the 70s/80s when I was their age. It’s scary to think about it.
    As far as being an inspiration, how could Hillary not be an inspiration? To quote from her victory speech in Ohio: “For everyone here in Ohio and across America who’s ever been counted out but refused to be knocked out, and for everyone who has stumbled but stood right back up, and for everyone who works hard and never gives up, this one is for you.” That’s enough to keep me fighting and working for my dreams.

  • http://nobloodforhubris.blogspot.com No Blood for Hubris

    I think Barry’s candidacy is doomed, actually.

    I think Hillary will beat the crap out of “Same Old Same Old” John McCain.

    And I think we’ll finally start the process of shovelling ourselves out of the moral and fiscal sh*t hole into which George W. Bush has thrown our country.

    • Jeff

      “And I think we’ll finally start the process of shovelling ourselves out of the moral and fiscal sh*t hole into which George W. Bush has thrown our country.”

      We can’t do that until Democrats stop voting for his wars…

      • B-Rob

        Jeff, there you go again! Don’t you know you are NOT supposed to bring up the genesis of the Glorious War? It was NOT her fault! Like the old saying goes, “Success has a thousand fathers; failure is an orphan.” This war is like disco: no one associated back then now admits they were involved. Feith, Paul Bremmer, Tommy Franks . . . like their books all said, THEY did not screw up. And neither did Hillary. So stop acting like she is responsible for her vote! Because she is not!

        • workingclass artist

          BROB….YAWN…..ANYTHING NEW ?……

    • Dawnelle

      Here’s an example of how you may be right…… from my own state (today)

      New Survey USA poll

      He’s down from 20 pts ahead to 10 to now only 5!!!! Ya BABY!!

  • katmandu
  • Jeff

    “Actually, she voted to give the President the authorization to go to war so the threat of war would force Saddam Hussein to allow UN inspectors back into Iraq, which it did.”

    Complete. Utter. Nonsense.

    But keep telling yourself that.

    • Dawnelle

      How can the TRUTH be nonsense??? utterly??

      your UTTERS belong on your COW

  • Educated, latte-drinking arugula-lover for Clinton

    Someone mentioned the possibility of a psychology student doing a thesis on Obama supporters. As a psychologist, it is interesting to watch this race. I don’t agree with all of Clinton’s positions (preferring Kucinich, at first, but knowing he was too far left to be electable), but watched the centrist, incremental change approach that actually resulted in the implementation of about as much liberal policy change as could get through the right-wing in the U.S. Clinton actually implemented his campaign promises, by-and-large (I kept track after the first Bush promptly reneged on “Read my lips. No new taxes!) Centrist liberals get things done. I voted for Obama in 2004, but am now disappointed that the Illinois National Organization for Women does not endorse him, for very specific reasons. His record is unclear and too short, I do give Hillary credit for experience in the White House because she clearly was a more active first lady than any before her, and I am very concerned about Obama’s ability to overcome the Republican machine and voters (my friends are all Republicans and they would much prefer Hillary over Obama.) Obama and his supporters are going too far in alienating Clinton supporters, who they will need more than they like to acknowledge if he wins the nomination. Unless the Republican-like tactics against a very deserving candidate (Clinton) by an unready, arrogant GUY don’t stop, he doesn’t get my vote again.

    • workingclass artist

      Ahhhh…….Our resident psychologist has exposed the SECRET of the CENTRIST path…..chuckle….Why the power brokers of the left and the right HATE the New Democrats….( sigh )…..Thankyou.
      RESPICE….ADSPICE….PROSPICE…..
      ( Examine the past, the present , the future )

  • Eurogirl70

    Please do not think that all of us that are under the age of 45 are mindless drones.

    I am a 38 year old woman, with a masters degree, and an avid Hillary Clinton supporter. My 35 year brother is also an avid Hillary Clinton supporter as well. So are is my 80 year old father who holds a PhD and was Chair of his department, as is my 70 year old mother.

    All of us are educated, avid followers of politics. And we all have very finely honed bullshit detectors; the reason none of us are Obama supporters.

    • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

      It is good to see younger people possess bullshit detectors. They can take time to develop and some people never develop them too well at all.

      The reference to advanced degrees: some of use older people don’t have them, but we still can have decent bullshitometers. :)

      • Eurogirl70

        Sometimes I find that those with all the illustrious degrees, from all the most prestigious schools never obtain good old common sense. I agree that it is a misnomer to think that someone is intelligent by the mere fact that they went to college. I know plenty of stupid people with college degrees.

    • Jeff

      “Please do not think that all of us that are under the age of 45 are mindless drones.”

      Please do not think that all Obama supporters are mindless drones.

      This is a shortcut around thinking–someone disagrees with you, so they must belong to a cult, or be a “mindless drone”. It’s hilarious this comment shows up on an article dedicated to exploring the “mysterious divide” between Obama and Hillary supporters. Gee, maybe it’s that one side of the debate unilaterally views the other as “mindless drones”, rather than actually engages them in critical debate.

      The reasons I’m an Obama supporter? Well, there are many, but the main one is quite simple. I was against the war from the start, and so was he. No amount of spin from the Hillary camp on her vote for war is going to change the fact that it was, indeed, a vote for war. The harder you argue the point, the more glaring the fact becomes.

      • Eurogirl70

        Jeff:

        The only one spinning is yourself. When I here Obama supporters say to visit his website if you want details, I cringe.

        You have been coming to this site to start trouble for the past 1+ months. If you know you are right, why come here to slam others who believe the opposite? You have no chance of changing anyone’s mind here; merely getting them to dig in further. Your slick, elitist schtick is wearing thin. If you were offended by my “mindless drone” routine, I don’t care. I have seen too many people taken with a feeling as opposed to being pragmatic, intelligent, and analyzing a situation. Your candidate Obama has surrounded himself with people who voted for the Iraq war resolution (Daschle, Kerry, Dodd,). Obama gives one anti-war speech in his home district, the most liberal district in Illinois, back in 2002. He has claimed that the speech was given at the height of his Senatorial campaign. Not so. In 2004 he says that his views on the war pretty much mirror the president’s; said he wasn’t sure how he would have voted had he been in the Senate at the time. I know exactly how he would have voted. He would have voted yes. Like Shelby Steele has said, Obama is a pleaser. He would have no more stuck his neck out in a hostile environment to stand on priciple as he did in throwing his good friend of 20 years Rev Wright under the bus yesterday. I suggest you take a Dramamine, because it is going to be a bumpy ride for you and your candidate.

  • jr2008

    Great post — I’ve been canvassing in several states and phonebanking for Hillary and have heard only one person (a college student in NH) in all that time identify a policy issue which contributed to his support of Obama — actually he preferred Bill Richardson first, Obama second, on energy reform. I’m pretty miffed by the blank stares I get from Obama supporters when I ask, what do you like about him or why do you prefer him to Hillary? Oh, and I’m a latte-drinking, Ivy-league educated professional woman who will NOT be voting for Obama if he is the nominee. Sorry, he started running for President the moment he entered the U.S. Senate, he has no experience, he’s too liberal, he’s weak on foreign policy, and he’s shown no ability to unite anyone. I mean really, how much of a uniter can he really be if his base is essentially the same coalition McGovern assembled nearly 40 years ago (and Dukakis, and Kerry, and Gore)?

  • B-Rob

    There is a lot of hate in the anti-hope side. I simply do not recall a primary in which the candidate of party A said that the candidate of party B was qualified, but not the guy from her party who was beating her . . . until now. I have never seen a primary where a candidate basically discounts as “unimportant” entire states that her opponant won . . . until now. I have never seen a person compared to Judas Iscariot because he declined to back a particular candidate . . . until now.

    In the 1990s, Al Campanis said that Black people could not be baseball managers because they lacked the “necessities.” Back in the 1970′s, Blacks did not get management positions because they lacked the “qualifications”. But I have never heard the argument that a leading candidate (the one who is WINNING) should not prevail because they are “unelectable” . . . until now.

    Has Hillary adopted the ugliest campaign strategy ever? Apparently not, according to experts. But it has to be in the top five. Luckily for this country, God “don’t like ugly” and Hillary is not being rewarded for the scorched earth approach she has adopted. Karma . . . .

  • Kefa

    SUSA INDIANA CLINTON DOWN 5 POINTS AND CLOSING

    http://www.surveyusa.com/client/PollReport.aspx?g=d4d1bc7e-32d4-438e-8143-75c8b25b3435

    getting closer

  • Educated, latte-drinking arugula-lover for Clinton

    I suspect there might be a curvilinear relationship between education and support of candidates. While those with less education and a lot of education support Clinton (or McCain), those with a medium amount of education support Obama. It would be interesting to do this analysis. Age and gender probably play a part, but some Obama supporters, often in crude words, dismiss Clinton supporters as uneducated, old women, while claiming that Clinton is divisive (!) Psychologists know that when you reinforce such behavior, you get more of it. As a tactical strategy, it might be a good, long-term investment to sit out the election or write in Clinton rather than encourage more of this. Four years of McCain may be worth it to send a message to the Democratic Party.

    • B-Rob

      While those with less education and a lot of education support Clinton (or McCain), those with a medium amount of education support Obama.

      I have see no data anywhere that supports the conclusion that people with “a lot of education support Clinton”. The only breakdowns I have seen are “HS education” vs. “post HS”. Obama overwhelmiingly wins the better educated cohort. If you actually have data supporting that statement, I would like to see it.

      • Jeff

        “I have see no data anywhere that supports the conclusion that people with “a lot of education support Clinton”. The only breakdowns I have seen are “HS education” vs. “post HS”. Obama overwhelmiingly wins the better educated cohort. If you actually have data supporting that statement, I would like to see it.”

        Yeah, I’ve never seen this data either. The only breakdown I’ve come across shows the opposite of “Educated”‘s conclusions.

        • B-Rob

          Jeff, I think he/she pulled that out their a$$ frankly. I have not seen ANYTHING ANYWHERS supporting that conclusion . . especially common sense.

          Let me use on example: Last week I paid $3.62 for gas (I use premium). Monday, at a different stationm, I paid $3.89. But Hillary and McCain think the earth is going to stop turning if they are able to get an 18 cent per gallon reduction in the gas tax? W.t.f.? What person who understands percentages would think that is a significant cost reduction, especially given the price change I just described?

          Even more interesting, I was listening to NPR today and hearing Hill talk about “my opponent doesn’t care about the burden middle class families are suffering from high gas prices.” Yet our local station had an energy economist on and he explained that a temporary reduction in the gas tax will most likely increase demand . . . just like a certain skinny politician with a funny name said!

          • beebop

            You are about as relevant as your candidate.

            Most people don’t go through gyrations when they buy their gas. They see it going up and up and when Hillary and John tell them they will take 18 cents off the price of a gallon of gas, they multiply that times the number of gallons their tank holds and decide what that buys?

            WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU LIVE that 18 cents is such chump change to you that you can look down your shitty little nose at people in TROUBLE?

            And you don’t understand why people think that you and your candidate live on a different planet …. or in some high rise where you have lost sight of what it is like to “live” in America.

            PLEASE pull your head out of your ass before you get run over by an 18 wheeler coasting down hill to save fumes!

            • B-Rob

              Beebop, if you count for an intellectual on the Hillary side, you folks are in serious trouble. Did you actual think about ANYTHING I wrote? 18 cents on $3.59 per gallon gas is about 5% . . . this at a time when gas increased 20 cents a gallon last week! Working class people are not as dumb as you think.

              they multiply that times the number of gallons their tank holds and decide what that buys

              18 cents a gallon on a 15 gallon tank saves you a whopping $2.70 on your fillup, so that will be $51.15 instead of $53.85. Big whoop!

              There is a very good reason that no economist I have heard has chimed in in support of this cockamamie idea. And don’t get me started on the actual chances of passing a “windfall profits tax on the big oil companies”? You think Bush would actually sign that? No. But you will get to make hay with “we tried to push through a three month reduction in an 18 cent per gallon tax as gas hit just under $4 dollars”. You call that “doing something” . . . I call it b.s.

              Another thing: my kid’s school and our local public middle school literally have oil wells on their grounds; they are literally oil producers and get a royalty check. You are going to tax them? And the farmers that have similar wells all throughout Ohio? Or just the “big oil companies” and which are the “big” ones and which are the “little” ones?

              This entire proposal is b.s. It doesn’t take a Ph.D. from MIT to see that either, only a little common sense. Sadly lacking here, of course!

              • workingclass artist

                B-Rob….Argumentum ad hominem….Once you begin with this it’s difficult to continue the argument…..No ?….chuckle….

              • Judith

                Have I just learned that you buy premium gas and your child attends a private school? You must be one of those Obama elitists.

          • Jeff

            Once again, Obama trusts people’s intelligence over the pandering of a Clinton or McCain. I’m not saying it’s not a gamble…

            • beebop

              Projecting thoughts and thinking patterns on to Gerri Ferraro is “trusting” people’s intelligence?

              You know, if he hadn’t insulted so many people’s intelligence, he’d actually have a base that isn’t shrinking. Of course, you don’t see that, but the reality-based world does. Except for the media. They bought this unity pony and they intend to ride. They looked amazingly dumb after selling us IRAQ and By God, they are going to HAVE this candidate!

    • Jeff

      “Four years of McCain may be worth it to send a message to the Democratic Party.”

      Seeing as how the last eight haven’t convinced you to vote for the Democratic nominee this year, I don’t see how four more will do the trick.

  • Strawberrybitch

    I’m truly stunned that Obama supporting trolls actually believe that BO can pull out of this tail spin and still win in November. Much more qualified and better politicians got blown out of the water for much less than being linked to a religious fruitloop. Dean got taken down for a digitally enhanced scream. And Dukakis bit the big one because he got his picture taken in a tank. There is no way BO can win against McCain. Never. And if the Democratic leadership can’t see that, they need to go join the green party so WE (typical white folks) can get some real leadership.

    • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

      They’ve been chanting “Make Wright go away! Make Wright go away! And Obama waved his magic wand yesterday and made Wright go away.

      • sjc-tx

        I am not too disinclined to think this lastest ‘Wright ranting’ is not planned and scripted and calculated by the Obama campaign… Its their way of showing Obama to be ‘aboave it all’… It’s just too OBVIOUS in its weirdness… Has anyone else gotten that feeling???

        • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

          Yes some have. But that would be a very risky strategy I would think. I feel the only thing Obama accomplished yesterday was the magic wand waving for his current supporters and MSM to have something to hang their hat on. Obama looked drained and burnt out yesterday. Hillary looks great and full of energy! The trolls are getting increasingly desperate. Very good week for Hillary and her supporters.

          • workingclass artist

            I disagree…..I see a split in the political positions within the AA community…..There have been similar splits before….
            LOOK AT THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT….

            • Jeff

              “I disagree…..I see a split in the political positions within the AA community…..There have been similar splits before….
              LOOK AT THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT….”

              There is a world of difference between the African-American community, and the Feminist Movement.

              • workingclass artist

                Jeff….( sigh ) are you kidding me…..
                I was talking about factional rifts…..
                This is a split….A CLASSICAL RIFT BETWEEN FACTIONS…
                All communities politial or social have factions….
                ………….Omnia causa fiunt………
                ( All things happen for a reason. )

    • B-Rob

      There is no way BO can win against McCain. Never. And if the Democratic leadership can’t see that, they need to go join the green party so WE (typical white folks) can get some real leadership.

      How do explain every poll that says otherwise? Do you accept the possibility that you just might be WRONG in your assumptions . . . just as Hilalry was wrong in ASSUMING that Obama would not really pose a challenge and ASSUMING that the primaries would be opver by Super Tuesday and ASSUMING that White people would not vote for a Black candidate? Each of these erroneous assumptions proves one thing: do NOT underestimate Obama’s chances in the general!

      You think Obama cannot win; but you saying that does not make it so. Likewise, you wishing that everyone see what you think is so obvious kind of cuts against the fact that more and more superdelegates are coming out for him than for Clinton. Indeed, even after all this mess, Hillary’s negatives are STILL HIGHER THAN OBAMA. So it seems to me, the onus to prove “electability” is more on Hill than Barack at this point.

      • Strawberrybitch

        B-Robby, there is NO WAY Obama can win in November. He is losing ground in states that a few weeks ago were his for the taking. I’ve been a political junkie since I was five. I follow elections like sports fans follow the NBA or NFL. No one with that kind of baggage can survive the right wing smear machine that is just itching to go up against Obama. Just yesterday, I saw a commercial by a republican candidate linking his democratic rival to his endorsement of Obama and Obama’s relationship with Wright. The democrat actually had to deny that he endorsed Obama and was left speechless when a reporter showed a screen shot of Obama’s website proclaiming the endorsement. DEMOCRATS ARE HAVING TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM OBAMA AND OBAMA HASN’T EVEN WRAPPED UP THE NOMINATION YET! If that isn’t the canary in the coalmine I don’t know what is.

        • Jason

          Ok, so he can’t win because you said so and you are a political junkie.

          The democrat in question should have simply said “Yes, I support Obama. I do not support Rev. Wright. You are aware they are two different people, right?”

          And thats it. Thats all it takes to make the other side look stupid.

          You all complain about how Hillary should not be tarnished by the bad acts of Bill Clinton but the vile MSM keeps doing it but then you turn around and do the same thing to BO.

          I am in awe of your hypocrisy.

          • Strawberrybitch

            Jason, seriously, you are not doing Obama any favours by coming here and pissing us off. You’re only succeeding in getting us to dig our heels in deeper. Your arrogance, rudeness and sense of entitlement are real turn offs to the very people you need to win in November. Bur hey keep insulting us, I’ll just keep e-mailing your comments to every fence sitter, independant and republican female I know. You have no idea how many folks like you and R-Bob have coverted to Hillary.

            • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

              That is simply the best troll endorsement! :)

              • workingclass artist

                And there is the commercial you were lookin for earlier….No ?

            • Jason

              How many, like 5? 6? I’m sure you know enough people to turn a national election. Speaking of, can you even vote?*

              If you forward my comments pointing out your hypocrisy, that will pretty much just make you look like a hypocrite.

              But please, indulge me, why only the females?

              Is it because if I point out your hypocrisy I’m automatically a misogynist? Thats about as sensible as me calling you a racist (which I am emphatically not doing) simply because you oppose Obama.

              See how that goes both ways and is counterproductive?

              * I note the English/Canadian spelling of the word favour as opposed to favor.

              • Strawberrybitch

                I’m a Washington state delegate, so I’ve coverted quite a few. And um, your projection skills are amazing, I never mentioned the word misogynist, you did. Independants of both sexes, fence sitters of both sexes and female republicans. Male republicans I talk to are squarely in McCain’s camp so I don’t waste my energy. Now come to think of it, it’s very much like arguing with Obama supporters. Pointless. So Ciao, little one. I’m off to the gym. Leg day. Can’t waste energy babysitting you.

                • Jason

                  No, you mentioned you were forwarding my comments to women so I asked you if it was because you thought I was a misogynist.

                  You’ve explained why so we can leave it at that.

                  Also, now that you’ve clarified I also realize I misread your post, I thought “female” modified all 3 categories, not just the last one.

                  As for the babysitter part, whatever helps get you through the day, I’m certainly not going to get worked up about insults from some anonymous red headed bitch (your name) on the internet.

        • B-Rob

          You simply repeated what was said above, but provided no facts to support the conclusion.

          Look, let’s get real. The voting is still months and months away. Your anecdotes are interesting, but they are (a) inconsistent with the flow of superdelegate endorsements; (b) unverifiable, and (c) contrary to the polling.

          There are too many unknowns to determine who is or is not able to be elected. These would include:

          1. McCain — he is not a conservatives and many cons don’t like him at all. How jazzed will they be to vote for him if it rains on election day?

          2. McCain — will he have a stroke or another malignancy before the election?

          3. new Obama voters — will they turn out, especially in states like NC and Virginia that he is targeting because of the heavy college educated demographic

          4. “New Purple” states — there are states like Kansas, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota who have shown new openness to Dems at the Senate and governor levels. Can that carry over?

          5. Solid purple — Missouri, Iowa, Wisconsin, New Mexico, Colorado, Ohio and Pennsylvania could all go either way

          6. Party switchers — did those GOPers come to the Dem party to vote for Obama, to boost Hillary (because they generally think she is the weaker of the two), or because they are disgusted with the GOP?

          7. Race — will people chose McCain over Obama because he is “a Muslim”, “arrogant”, “inexperienced”, “Rev. Wright” or any of those other euphemisms for “n” word?

          8. Age — will people chose Obama over McCain because he is “too old”

          9. GOP malaise — they are VERY demoralized in general, as evidenced by all the GOPers retiring. The GOP has three seats open for every one Dem. So will they even show up to vote in numbers to beat Obama, even given his negatives?

          Most of these question apply to Hillary, too. Except add in that 63% of people simply don’t trust her — Obama has no such problem. She has higher negatives than Obama in every poll taken; she just is not considered likeable. I will not even add in the Clinton family drama factor, which is one reason I will not vote for her.

          All added up, what you have is this: national polls that are close regardless of who runs against McCain.

          • Jeff

            yeah, yeah, but what about Jeremiah Wright?
            ;)

            • B-Rob

              Does Jeremiah Wright wear a flag pin in his lapel when he and Bill Ayers attend planning sessions with Obama and Saul Alinsky at the mosque thay all secretly attend? Why won’t Obama answer THAT question?!

          • Strawberrybitch

            I’m from a republican family, I’m the liberal black sheep and proud of it. My republican female family members (who I can hardly stand) will vote for Hillary, but since they’re racists they won’t vote for Obama. My male republican family members are all out for McCain. Now throw Rev. WrightyMcFruitloop into the mix, how many republican crossovers have you lost? How many liberal athiests, agnostics, and freedom from religious types have you lost? Wright has cost Obama this election…NO WAIT…Obama’s poor choice in spiritual advisors cost him the presidency.

  • politicsIsdirty

    Very good article!!
    ++++++++ I agree there is a lot of HATE and DECEPTION in the hope campaign of Sen Nobama.++++++++++ We can only HOPE and PRAY that the voters of IN and NC will be ENLIGHTENED in their choice in this coming primary.++++ GOD HELP US ELECT THE BEST LEADER !!!

  • http://Supergram.blogspot.com Melissa

    Thanks for a grat article. We have no Obama supporters in my family for which, thank God.
    I have one acquaintance who was an Obama supporter and it is very sad that this very intelligent person could not give me one policy or proposal reason for his support. All about “change.” When I asked what change- no answer.
    Sad, so sad.
    And for the record, not one of us will EVER vote Obama. My family back in MA is pledged to actively work against Kerry and Kennedy for going against Hillary.

  • sjc-tx

    This is a most excellent writing. You have said it so well. It is EXACTLY what is going on. I call it bull-horn propoganda. It’s cultish in it’s teachings.

    • workingclass artist

      Don’t forget to add YELLOW JOURNALISM…..American rhetoric .com has a copy of a great speech by Teedy Roosevelt that takes on this very subject.
      Once again proves that truly soaring rhetoric is timeess and universal….

  • brandy

    Thank you for a wonderful and topical article.

    Fortunately, most of my friends support Hillary. Because of the extreme msm bias, and the zombie-like mentality of the Obamabots, I don’t know if I could endure anyone in my inner circle who supported Barack.

    But I do have acquaintances with whom I have engaged in lengthy, and circular discussions regarding politician Barack Obama.

    Sometimes, I wonder if Obama is using subliminal messaging or spiking dorm food with rohypnol?

    Then I remember that the youth provides great fodder for cult leaders. They are impressionable, and insistent on bucking the system–even if they don’t question their methods or their beliefs.

    Given the level of sexism emanating from Barack’s campaign, and the way that the msm has seized and elaborated upon it, if Obama is the Dem candidate, I will voice my objection in the most symbolic way that I can–with a McCain vote in November.

    I support Hillary wholeheartedly, but IF it comes down to it, I will not heed her advice and cast a vote for Obama. No way. Never. And I’m not alone.

    • Jason

      “the zombie-like mentality of the Obamabots”

      You do realize this is exactly how everyone views your support of Hillary right?

      Insult young people isn’t going to help your cause.

      Those same youths you are decrying are the ones who created all the software on which you are conversing.

      But go ahead, vote for McCain. Keeping the executive office in the hands of the Republicans is very rational and will certainly help your cause.

      Fortunately, you are in the minority and enough republicans and indy’s will support Obama to protect you from yourself.

      • beebop

        When did they up your prescriptions? You need to call your doctor as you are DILUSIONAL. If you think that ONE republican who voted “Dem for a Day” is actually going to support Baby O in November, you are inhaling the wrong end of the pipe.

        • Patti

          Its not the wrong end of the pipe, its the dirt weed in the pipe..

      • Strawberrybitch

        Jason, between Obama supporters like you, the ever eloquent Rev Wright and even Obama and his silver tongue, you whippersnappers and an everdwindling AA vote are all Obama has left. Garlic noses, the Irish, JFK democrats, women, hillary supporters, blue collar workers, white males, catholics, jewish folks…hmmm Uppity who have I left out that the Obama camp hasn’t insulted? I was a Clark supporter by the way, until a little tyke like you called me a racist over at KOS. And all I said was “No Dem on Dem violence”. If Obama loses you have no one to blame but yourselves.

        • Jason

          A few things -

          the polls simply don’t support what you are saying. If you go and look at the link to the latest North Carolina poll someone posted earlier, Obama is ahead of Hillary among women voters.

          So he hasn’t lost women or any of those other demographics you are claiming he has lost, except in your head.

          As for your calling me a whippersnapper, I’m 36. So I’m not sure I really qualify, although I don’t presume to know how old you are and its all relative, I suppose.

          On the previous comments from “beebop” on whether or not republicans will vote for Obama, again, despite whatever is going on in your head, there is no poll that shows 100% of republicans voting for McCain. Drop the hyperbole, it does not help your cause.

  • raymo

    It’s disturbing how easily younger women have internalized the anti-woman cliches. I guess they will have to reinvent feminism for their own generation. I mean, if Obama is the nominee I have no doubt we will lose to McCain, and women will lose abortion rights.

    Don’t say we didn’t warn you.

    • Jeff

      “It’s disturbing how easily younger women have internalized the anti-woman cliches. I guess they will have to reinvent feminism for their own generation. I mean, if Obama is the nominee I have no doubt we will lose to McCain, and women will lose abortion rights.

      Don’t say we didn’t warn you.”

      Please explain this to all of the Clinton supporters on this site who brag that they will vote for McCain in November against Obama. They certainly seem less concerned about abortion rights than you or I do.

      • beebop

        Don’t try to explain the tortured first I was for it and then I wasn’t thought process that Baby O brings to the “women’s movement.” He’s a no-show. He speaks up for the “nappy heads” but is silent on the “who’s.” Just listen to his words.

        • Jeff

          “Don’t try to explain the tortured first I was for it and then I wasn’t thought process that Baby O brings to the “women’s movement.” He’s a no-show. He speaks up for the “nappy heads” but is silent on the “who’s.” Just listen to his words.”

          You know what’s “tortured”? That paragraph. I have no idea what your point is. Horton Hears a Who? What?

          Care to explain a little more clearly?

          • B-Rob

            Jeff, is your head hurting? I know mine is . . . I think I just lost about 16 I.Q. points just clicking in here!

            • beebop

              Don’t let that door crack you ass any further on your bitter way out loser.

              • Jason

                You are pretty much the worst poster here.

                Any time someone tries to question your comments you come back with this type of angry nonsense.

                Why don’t you try to actually explain yourself than just spew vitriol?

                I know, go fuck myself. again. I get it.

                • workingclass artist

                  Jeff….You are makin me laugh…..
                  Would you like to borrow some latin insults….No one is better at insulting than the Romans….They raied insults to a high art form….Although Monty Python comes very close….
                  This is a sincere offer….chuckle…

                  • workingclass artist

                    Offer applies to Jason as he made me laugh as well…
                    Latin….Jason ?

                    • Jason

                      Is there Latin for “I will go fuck myself now?” I could end all of my comments with it.

                    • workingclass artist

                      Hmmmm…….Latin is the most pragmatic of languages so the grammer is tricky and I am rusty.
                      chuckle….Te futue me…( I fuck me )…Grammatically
                      it is absurd….
                      I have a fondness for this one…..The Romans are so visual…
                      Te odeo, interfice te cochleare!…..chuckle….
                      Translates thus : I hate you. Kill yourself with a spoon….chuckle…. OR HERE’S A BONUS….
                      Quomodo cogis comas tuas sic videri ?
                      Translation: How do you get your hair to do that ?
                      Twas tricky as the Romans have a different sarcastic method…..

    • HT

      Long time lurker, rarely comment, however your comment and the subsequent rebuttal by “Jeff” rings bells.
      I do not know what motivates Obama supporters, because every time they try to articulate, they pull in all the talking points, rather than address the issues. They also seem to be under the impression that Obama will be the unicorn that will lead them to a brilliant future. From the sermons that I have listened to, and the misogynist remarks from Obama and his minions, I have no doubt that Obama will curtail women’s rights as much as McCain will, if he perceives that there are political points in doing so. In addition, I do not think Obama will support the 10+% of the population based on his record – that would be the LGBT folks. Words matter, yes, but actions speak louder than words. What has Obama done to address the concerns of youth, or LGBT, or women? Geez, if one considers that women comprise more than 50% of the population, and LGBT more than 10% of the population (without regard to race) what has Obama done for those people? Just asking for a clarification here, cause I’ve read what is available on the internet about his past governmental record (precious little) and have been left wondering.
      As an aside, I do give kudos for both McCain and Obama in that they are both married to very strong women. McCain loses points for his loss of dignity in referring to his wife as….
      Obama loses points for Michele’s major mistake about feeling proud for the first time.
      Hillary gains point for working to make a marriage work, for forging a true partnership in that marriage, and for going out in the world and making a difference, when it would have been much easier to stay home and bake cookies or earn millions in the Corporate world. She raised a truly magnificent daughter (unlike Jenna and not Jenna) while dealing with her husband’s very public infidelity, and running for the senate on her own strengths. More importantly, she fought for her constituency and they appear to be very pro her, because they re-elected her.
      I cannot understand how any woman cannot relate to this person. A former First Lady with an outstanding record of involvement – the first since Jacquie to become involved rather than window dressing. A Senator with an admirable record of achievement – and please, don’t anyone spew that war vote. Read the legislation as it was presented, then consider Obama’s musing that he does know how he would have voted, cause, he wasn’t there!
      Anyway, my apologies for blowing off steam. I am not American. I can not vote for Hillary. I only wish my country had someone running for office with the experience, qualificatons and plicy platform of Hillary Rodham Clinton.
      PS, as a non American, this election is attracting all kinds of exposure outside your country. Millions of people worldwide are reading your blogs. No Quarter is one of my favourites because of the intelligence and relative civility of the the regulars toward commenter, particulary toward the agent provacateurs.
      PPS, when the Obama supporters first came to visit, they were very insulting. Lately, they appear to have been given an order to tamp down the rhethoric and start being more conciliatory (Catch more flies with honey syndrome?). Ergo, the supposedly calm comments that to people with less intelligence that the commenters at No Quarter, might have accepted at face value. (Shirin could run rings around them, and with far more justification). However, when they are repeatedly challenged to provide information, they revert to their formerstance – insults. Hang in there guys. You have one heckuva FIGHT ON YOUR HANDS, but I think you are backing a champoin. One who can “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.”

      • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

        Thank you (former) lurker for contributing to the discourse. Perhaps you will consider posting here more often?

        And I like very much indeed what you wrote. The trolls will attempt to rip it apart only spinning their wheels as end result.

        If you do contribute further than this one comment, don’t feel obligated to reply to any one rebuttal comment. We don’t have to feed the trolls all the time. We would not want them to get too obese and add to our burgeoning health care costs. :)

        • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

          PS: the more conciliatory tone of the dissenters here could be also due to there being more senior-level experienced trolls, even paid ones. If I was helping to manage the Obama campaign I would consider this blog a threat to my campaign and would focus some energy here perhaps…

          • simon, too

            But they still don’t get it.

            Obama is crippled.

            Not every system is created equal, not everything is as it seems, first rule.

            And from what I’ve seen, the great majority of trolls seem to miss this point.

            Or maybe the the trolls were trolled in, who knows?

            But I don’t see them asking these questions, and if your pattern is one of loss, something is wrong.

            Secoondly, all selfishly aggressive actions are doomed to defeat.

            Not in terms of defense, but offense, hence Iraq.

            But that damage being done, if Clinton, say, were to genuinely work out a solution in the ME, while protecting American and peaceful Israeli interests, we’d be OK.

            • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

              Or maybe the the trolls were trolled in, who knows?

              You mean Hillary supporters posing as trolls here like double-agent trolls? Could be but I would think they would expose themselves in their behavior.

          • HT

            couldn’t resist delurking again. You have raised an interesting point. After 40 years in the telecom industry, I’ve seen every different situation, and I didn’t recognize this one. You must have experience in PR. Regardless, you are correct. The first wave involved the gung ho group. when they found that wasn’t working, they retrained. When they found that wasn’t working, they sent the more teflon types. Who could call Jeff an idiot, when he appeared to be so reasonable, particularly when compared with the earlier incarnations, although Jeff and Kevin still reverted to type when they found their efforts were going nowhere.
            Marketing 101, and I missed it. I really must brush up on my old profession. Good Catch, And I love garlic, although it does cause problems if I ingest too much of it.

  • Educated, latte-drinking arugula-lover for Clinton

    It would be interesting to be able to define “well-honed bullshit detector”, as mentioned by Eurogirl 70. Formal education helps to teach “critical thinking” (colleges are increasingly requiring this of their first year students.) However, given the sophistication of the Obama machine (yes, he has one, too!), experience is needed, as well to detect the bullshit PLUS resist the aggressiveness of his supporters (whom he eggs on.) When I was a young college student, we were convinced that if we just loudly proclaimed the righteousness of McGovern’s anti-war position, and basically shouted down anyone who didn’t agree as “warmongers”, we’d win. Well, because we hadn’t enough experience to know that most of America was more conservative than we and didn’t appreciate being bullied, we were shocked when McGovern won Massachusettes in the general (and that’s all.) I suspect the educational thing is more complex than “educated people are for Obama and uneducated people are for Clinton.” As I said, it would be interesting to have better data to analyze than what we get from the polls.

    • workingclass artist

      I think Socrates defined very well a method for using the BS indicator….

    • dark1p

      Any above average teacher working during the past 25 years will likely tell you that critical thinking is seldom if ever taught anymore, and that many ‘college educated’ people these days cannot think critically if their lives depend on it.

      Forget the ‘critically’ part. when I got to college 35 years ago, I helped a senior on my floor with his term paper because he was unable to put two thoughts in series and build an argument of any kind. He was not ignorant or illiterate, but had real trouble thinking logically.

      That was the day I realized I would never want for a job as a writer, and I never have. Knock on wood.

  • swayed

    well the good news is that some of us who were obama supporters in the beginnig have changed our minds and are now supporting hilary, so there is hope!

    • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

      Momentum is on Hillary’s side for certain, no matter what the trolls here tell you. Thanks for choosing Hillary! :)

    • workingclass artist

      Swayed welcome…..Just so you know there are many reasons for supporting Clinton…..Enjoy the variety….
      …………Omnia mutantur nos et mutamur in illis……………
      Translation: All things change, and we change with them.

  • http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hillary_Clinton_In_2008 Keri Benoit

    Brilliant Joanne. You cannot talk to Obamatrons. They are so brainwashed and have drunk so much Kool Aid, they cannot imagine their messiah could possibly be capable of doing anything wrong. It’s all a plot by “The Clintons”, as is anything that goes wrong in the world. :rolls eyes: If the DNC is stupid enough to nominate this empty suit and liar as their nominee when they have this brilliant candidate standing there, they get what they deserve. A major spanking in November, a loss of many members in the party and egg on their face. – Keri/Hillary Clinton in 2008 Group

  • endodoc79

    Thank you for airing your dirty laundry. I think many of us have been having the same kinds of conversations among friends and family concerning the democratic primary contest. When I ask polite Obama supporters why they like him – it reads like your sister – I like that he is for hope and change and when I ask what that means in regards to policy they don’t really have an answer. The usual supporter of Obama just badmouths Hillary with some of the most misogynist words imaginable, so I will not repeat them here. This election has shown us we still have a long way to go regarding gender issues in this country. I hope that responsible Americans and superdelegates alike can look past the surface and vote for Senator Clinton based on her superior understanding of the issues and her detailed plan to improve our economy, health care and education system. We’ll all feel a lot better if we can get out of this mess Bush is leaving us. That is why Senator Clinton presses on despite all that is thrown her way, our future survival depends on it.

  • beachnan

    Thank you for such an excellent post. I have run into the same situation with people I know. Luckily, my entire family supports Hillary, and by the way, will never vote for Obama. The Obama supporters just don’t get it. You can’t have a message of hope, and yet keep spewing all this hate. Besides Hillary, just look at others who have had the hit put on them by the Obama people, Tavis Smiley, Geraldine Ferraro, Joe Wilson, and Maya Angelou. What about Donna Brazille’s comment that if Obama is not the nominee, there will be blood? Since when is this kind of talk acceptable? This whole situation is absurd. America has woken up. Let’s pray the DNC does too.

  • Educated, latte-drinking arugula-lover for Clinton

    It’s apparent that the Obama campaign, no different than any other campaign, makes liberal use of fallacious arguments. I especially see the use of various distractions (tu quoque or “you too”; red herring arguments, and others to avoid answering questions put to him that have been put to all the other candidates.) These strategies are taught in law school. Combined with the vociferousness of the attacks on the questioners and refusal to accept further debates, this is a new, hopeful, positive campaign only because Obama keeps saying it is (another method of fallacious argumentation – workingclass artist, help me with the Latin here.)

    • workingclass artist

      Hmmmm……Argumentum ad verecundiam….. ( appeal to authority )
      It is so because I say so….or perhaps…Argumentum ad ignorantiam….
      ( A argument from ignorance )….True because not proven false…..
      Argumentum ad baculum….( appeal to force )….Might makes right….
      Argumentum ad populum….( appeal to the populus )…..A favorite tool of the propagandist, demagogue, and the advertizer. It is an agument aimed at arousin the emotions and enthusiasms of the multitude….
      Non causa pro causa…..False cause….
      Petitio Principii……Begging the question…..a classic diversionary tactic.
      My personal favorite: Ignoratio Elenchi…..( irrelevant conclusion )….
      An argument directed to purporting to establish a particular conclusion is directed to proving a different conclusion…..
      I had to dig up my old LOGIC text to make sure my rusty latin squard with the definitions…..That was fun….Any of it meet the question Edu-Latte ?

      • workingclass artist

        Oh and I forgot to add….ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM….( ABUSE )
        Used when instead of disproving the truth of an assertion one attacks the person who made the assertion….
        A classic example was every time on the old SNL Dan Ackroyd began his counter point with ” JANE….YOU INSUFFERABLE SLUT…..”

  • Jeff

    moving to latest thread…

  • No Fraudz

    Thanks Joanne, for sharing that display of the courage that it takes to work with a family member who has been smitten by this irrational mental/emotional virus that threatens to strain relationships. I had given up with some friends and relatives of mine. You however, have nudged me into jumping back on the shuttle, retrieving my telescope, finding the ‘facts’ and beaming them back to MY lost friends.
    Ironically, they are right there in the midst of all the facts, but have chosen to be misled & hypnotized by irrational prejudice, (yes,…I believe there is rational prejudice) refusal to take responsibility to be informed on the issues across the board, ignorance in discerning the subtler signs and symbols of mind manipulation, yes, and even yielding to propaganda and sexism.
    I call them lazy…….I know that’s unkind.

    There was a period in the campaign when I was so depressed, I avoided all my bookmarked sites …….for days. There were times when I was so emotionally drained, unable to get through to my friends, watching the negativity and reading about the attacks was just too much. But I kept searching for information online and viewed all perspectives.

    Seeing HRC’s valiant steps one state at a time, plus what I interpreted as her campaign preparation errors, that is, their misreading the level of guile and deceptiveness of her current Dem opponent’s campaign team, gave me the energy to do just what you did,….. keep asking my friends for the reasons for their preferences. When they could not respond intelligently, I sent them the info I had found.

    I wished I were a citizen to be able to volunteer for service in her army of volunteers. I felt deep dismay with the SC debacle, and wondered how people with brains could so blindly move like sheep, to set back whatever strides had been made in race relations, in your country….and if they were prepared to live with the consequences of their own missteps. I wondered what hypnotic spell had befallen them. But I wasn’t bitter. Absolutely not.

    This site gave me hope. (No! NO! NO! Not of the BO kind!!)I admired the fighting spirit of all who ranted, raved and shooooed away the devil’s advocates who clearly were out to sidetrack at times.
    Watching how the troops would out any skirmish that was started anywhere in this battleground and keep up the relentless firepower, by land, sea and air, was a soothing balm for me. You even made me laugh…many times……..and that was healing and tension releasing.

    So thanks to every one of you…for fighting the good fight,….. for seeing through the cultish, fraudulent, manipulative behaviour of that other pseudo campaign. You ably represent many of us who are with you in spirit.

    Let me admit that I am not a citizen or resident, so I cannot vote…physically. But I hope you do not mind my participating here, in the circumstances. I do have friends and relatives though, who can vote. Unfortunately, some got bit by the bug, so I feel bound to innoculate them and restore sanity…..albeit from a distance.

    I am very interested in the election and have been diligently following up on the net since last year. I’m from a Caribbean island, same age as HRC, so I’m sufficiently aware of the Clinton era and what it brought to the development table, as we also benefited from that era. Plus, I remember well, the horrors HRC had with her Health Reform attempt and the defeat she suffered.

    So, she came into the election with some earned +ve grades from me. We even had the honour of being visited by the Prez himself as the keynote speaker at a Business Forum, after he left office. HRC is, in my book, a woman of substance, who walks her talk…. But, I still did my own research on both candidates. And I admit, from a distance, I may miss out on a lot of other details that are also important.

    Like Joanne, I have collected my own encyclopedia of references that I forward to my friends and relatives, to pry open their lazy & stubborn eyes, ears and intelligence. The resistance has made me question the education process at times. And motivated me to be even more of a thorn in my 18 year old daughter’s head. I discuss some of the developments of your Campaign 08 with her, including the racial baiting events, to help her recognize evil in all it’s subtlety.

    I always felt and this campaign justified my conviction, that I owe it to humanity to bring her up respecting everyone’s contribution, shared humanity and the need to take personal responsibility for your destiny. She is not allowed to get mired in the excuses and crutches that some of us hold on to, calling it history and social justice.

    For the record, I was educated to post graduate level at a London, UK, University, just in case certain folks get the “bright” idea that I’m less educated, hence my choice of HRC. Utter rubbish!

    Regret the length….

    Thanks again! Keep up the fight against the mind controllers!!

  • Untilthelastdogdies

    That was just excellent Joanne!

    I find that my college educated, home-made latte drinking (it’s cheaper!), 47 year-old, slightly wider-than-it -used-to-be ass agrees with you entirely!

    Such an admission usually invites what I refer to as the politcs of personal destruction from the Obama crowd.

    I too have witnessed the nastiest comments from both the blogosphere and the male-dominated MSM. Some of the women employed there are little better e.g., when Obama is perceived to be running low on energy he is just “tired”, but when Hillary is lacking energy she is tired and shopworn. I’d say that is beyond trivial and petty, but there you have it.

    As for your comment

    I realized that a very important pillar of Obama’s campaign strategy is exploiting the irrational hatred of Hillary Clinton. This hatred was first brought to us by the Republicans, and it is now the rallying cry of Obama supporters.

    I strongly suspect such a behavioral tendency is the spawn of Axelrod who has secretly been worshipping at the alter of K.R.

    At the risk of sounding smug, don’t despair for your sister. I believe history will someday (perhaps even presently!) weigh-in on the side of those of us who have seen this entire process hijacked by both subtle and blatant misogyny.

  • Amanda

    OMG, deja vu. Anytime I talk to an Obama supporter, or repug, that’s the only phrase I hear: I hate her. I had my Jewish friends, liberal dems, wine drinkers, Westchester county NY (code name for rich lol) telling me the same thing one day. Then I said down and within 15 mins the hate “was gone” once I explained a few differences between Obama and Hillary especially in ME policy. If she wins the nomination, there is a lot of work to do to win hearts and minds.

  • Amanda

    PS: Set down*

  • Educated, latte-drinking arugula-lover for Clinton

    Working class artist, I am impressed !!!!! Thanks.

    • workingclass artist

      Gratis…Thankyou for giving me a reason to dig up my logic text…I feel better armed and enjoy the fun at this blog….My boss is out of town…
      chuckle…..

  • owanna

    Two thing bothered me greatly about the left these days( Iam a leftist mind you)
    1- When did the working class became an stigma to the left. Isn’t by definition the working class is back bone of the movement. So any one who looks down, insult or doesn’t care about them autamtically is the enamy? when did all that change.

    2- For the last 16+ years they defended the Clintons against all attacks by the republicans and disputated all the claims against them. Now they are using the same claims to defeat Hillary so my question is were u lying then or now. How am going to believe any word comes out of your mouth now since you don’t beleive it your self.
    I am sure they are so short sighted now they can’t think

  • CeeHussein

    I realized that a very important pillar of Obama’s campaign strategy is exploiting the irrational hatred of Hillary Clinton. This hatred was first brought to us by the Republicans,…

    And used by Hillary as she flips to page six in the Rove manifesto to win at all costs.

    I’m hoping that voters in the upcoming primaries will listen. I’m hoping that Democrats, particularly those latte-drinking college educated Obama-leaning people will educate themselves

    I’m quite aware that Hillary is appealing those who insult you. Do you shop at Whole Foods? You’ll be on an enemies list for that too.

    Too bad that you don’t see it.

    Did you forget about this class warrior?

    Tom Buffenbarger president of the machinists’ union (International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers) was the the latest in a string of Clinton junkyard dogs unleashed upon Obama.
    Channeling Howard Beale from the movie “Network,” he yelled into the microphone, “Give me a break! I’ve got news for all the latte-drinking, Prius- driving, Birkenstock-wearing, trust fund babies crowding in to hear him speak!

  • Nic Smith

    Excellent article, Joanne!!

    As someone who knows you personally and professionally, you have done what you always do which is try and examine the facts and logic of the “others” point of view and you did it with a sense of humor, never malice.

    The questions to your sister were questions that just asked for simple answers, and probed for the willingness of your sister to examine her own feelings and thoughts. Her answers to your questions reminded me of the old saw “Don’t confuse me with facts.”

    Well done, Joanne. And I too, am a man not afraid to vote for a strong, intelligent, committed and determined woman.

  • Troll Drill Thrall

    Crickets.

  • pm317

    You’re why I (and millions of others) will never vote for Obama. Pl. go away. You’re hurting your candidate more than helping him here.

  • Judith

    Are you KevinHussein or Kevin7Hussein, who regularly bashes and ridicules Hillary supporters on Huffington Post?

  • workingclass artist

    Kevin you mischievious imp…Have you dug up the evidence yet ?
    Uppity has offered jam and I’ll boil eggs….

  • kenoshaMarge

    Couldn’t agree more. Can’t say for sure who I loathe more Obama or his supporters. But the more either of them open their yaps, or their keyboards, the greater the loathing grows. I thought I couldn’t hate anything more than I hated Republican trolls. Shows how wrong you can be. I hate, and I do mean hate, Obama trolls worse. Obama trolls, are at least supposed to be liberals/progressives. Wrong!

  • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

    I think that little “innocent” jab was designed to provoke a response and change the tenor of the thread.

  • simon, too

    For Clinton to hold a grudge against men like Scaife purely for the sake of vengeance is for our political leaders to clog the American pipes, destroying our country.

    Others will gladly try, no need to help.

    We’d be no better than some rabid little middle eastern country, holding on to every slight, a life spent in pursuit of revenge as opposed to a life spent in pursuit of great art, poetry, music or a cure for AIDS.

    See the difference?

    And what did that get America?

    Geez.

    Me, I admire her, Scaife I wouldnt trust for the life of me, but, you know, if he really can change, well, the country benefits.

    And people who don’t understand that basic premise are ignorant.

  • simon, too

    By not allowing her personal feelings for Scaife to dictate, or bowing to some infantile sense of revenge, Clinton is already unifying the country, LEADING.

    It’s that old New England Christian ethic, without it, it’s the worst aspects of Palestine, say, all the way, with the accompanying baggage.

    The country would fail, eventually, with men like Scaife, Cheney, or even the personalities at Air America,um, “leading.”

  • workingclass artist

    Simon I agree with you…She also worked with that ol’ rascal Newt on legislation….

  • kenoshaMarge

    You are right. Shouldn’t feed the attention trolls. They just won’t go away unless ignored. My bad. I’m sending me to my room for the rest of the day.

  • http://myspace.com/loyaldissent Garlic-Nosed Guitarist

    Send me too, I fall for their bullshit and respond as well. But I will try to be better. :)