On the off chance that any of the troglodytes which comprise the noquarter reader base follow the link you’ve provided, that is.

I have doubts.

Having said that, I suspect that we really need to figure out how to stop this bombing, stop our involvement in Afghanistan. Got any ideas? I sure as hell don’t. We sure were left on hell of a mess by the WORST President ever, weren’t we?
Gug

Having said that, I suspect that we really need to figure out how to stop this bombing, stop our involvement in Afghanistan. Got any ideas? I sure as hell don’t.
Gug

Obama is presently conducting two wars that Bush started but didn’t finish. Obama didn’t start those wars. Did anyone think both would magically stop on inauguration day?

Obama is not Bush. Obama did not methodically drum up support for the unnecessary invasion of a country halfway around the world that had not attacked us and lacked any capacity to do so. He did not instigate a pointless war that has cost 4,284 American lives, and left a confirmed 100,278 Iraqi civilians dead. He’s just stuck with them.

Nor did Obama make torture a policy of the United States government. He took steps to end that policy.

If you want to stop hearing about Bush from the Obama people, stop making the phony comparisons.

I am against torture.

my issue is with one party (dems/obama) screaming about waterboarding terrorists, but then turn around and air bomb civilians, and then try to spin it and justify it.

invasion of iraq is a seperate issue. they weren’t using enhanced interrogation techniques on Iraqis in search of WMDs (as far as i know).

They were using the techniques to defend americans against those who would destroy it.

I noticed in Larry’s thread you wrote that you were surprised that the left is staying virtually silent on this issue. THAT is what my post is about. The hypocrisy – not whether one or the other is correct. But the politicization of the tactics used, and the *outrage* launched by the left at Bush, but the silence towards Obama. (And obama’s hypocrisy as well)

I don’t think we are really that much in disagreement.

“I’m not convinced that torture made us safer. Anymore that I was ever convinced that invading Iraq made sense”

And I’m sure you know that air bombing and killing hundreds of civilians is MOST definitely not making us safer.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30618973/

Personally, I would prefer neither method was used. But, if I had to choose, I would prefer waterboarding a handful of suspected terrorists in hopes of gaining crucial info, over air raids.

“I don’t agree with the drone attacks because they don’t seem to have any purpose, beyond killing indiscrimately. But I think it’s an entirely separate issue from the torture question.”

They are both tactics of war, used for the same outcome. Some consider one a-ok, and the other, a war crime. That to me, does not make sense.

But thanks for the debate! :O)

and thanks! :O)

I’m not convinced that torture made us safer. Anymore that I was ever convinced that invading Iraq made sense. All Shock and Awe did was destroy the global goodwill and sympathy that we genuinely had on 9/12/01 and make us look like a bunch of cowboys.

In my mind what’s happening in Pakistan has no bearing on what GW did. We lost 3000 people on 9/11, killed by crazed, religious zealots, most of whom came from Saudi Arabia. Months after the attack, we invade Iraq under false pretenses, and get bogged down in a God awful mess.

As far as I’m concerned, Bush and his Neo-con buddies followed the same mantra as the Dems: never let a good crisis go to waste. Iraq wasn’t threatening our national sovereignty. Our own fear, confusion and anger have done that admirably.

I don’t agree with the drone attacks because they don’t seem to have any purpose, beyond killing indiscrimately. But I think it’s an entirely separate issue from the torture question.

So, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Isn’t that EXACTLY what Bush was trying to do, by water boarding terrorists? trying to gain info that would save american lives from those who want to destroy our way of life and prevent future attacks?

Bush water boarded terrorist suspects and was called a war criminal.

obama orders drone attacks, killing innocent civilians, and Ellis Henican made, in my opinion, a STUPID argument in defense of drone attacks, while condeming water boarding.

They are both utilized, with the same objectives.

One leaves the terrorist alive, and unharmed, but wet.

the other leaves innocent men, women and children dead.

personally, i would find it much more humane to waterboard a few suspected terrorists, in hopes of discovering the locations of taliban leaders, and future plots, than performing air raid bomb drops because of a tip.

Best post I have read this year. Clear and head-on.

With torture? I do not buy into it. There is credible evidence that it does not/has not worked, that the ticking time-bomb analogy is bogus as a debating point, and that the deliberate nature of torture corrupts and coarsen’s any ligitimate argument we might have going in. Waterboarding is gross enough; rape by instrumentality makes my skin crawl.

These drone operations and subsequent civilian casualties, whether intended or not [and I don't think they're purposeful] beg the question of the achieveable goal. I don’t see that we’ve gained anything, except creating fear and damage, in a country where the leaders on the ground need to do the necessary fighting. I understand that nearly a 1/2 million civilians are leaving the Swat Valley now, that the peace agreement between the Pakistani govt and the Taliban has been tossed out. So, it looks like the dogfight between the real parties involved is going to start.

Does the Pakistani Government have a right to attack these strongholds? Absolutely. And a lot of people are going to get killed, up close and personal and probably horrifically.

So, I don’t see how you bunch these things together. Each is specific with specific moral decisions required. I’m against torture on basic principle; I’m not convinced it works nor is necessary. I’m against the drone attacks because we’re killing senselessly with no achieveable goal. But I’m on the Pakistani Government’s side, a sovereign nation, to defend itself against those who would destroy it.

Inconsistent? Perhaps. But I never said I was pacifist. They’re the ones who get trampled as they’re throwing flowers.